sambya

He said that "Christianity" is Vaishnavism and he is referring to the theology and not to the pseudo-Christians.

 

Srila Prabhupada said many times that he did not believe that the all these people who claim to be Christians were real Christians.

HA......HA........HA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and what exactly is the difference between christianity proper and psuedo christianity ? maybe you are trying to sugggest ideal christianity . but remember that there is nothing like ideal christianity or ideal hinduism . it is an utopian concept that never existed .

either prabhupada was relying on this utopian absurdity or he is genuinely meaning practicing christianity .

you're absurd !!!!!!!!!

here you are ....

>>> Ref. VedaBase => PoP 8: Failure and Success in Yoga

Prabhupada: No, no. Christianity is Vaisnavism.

Dr. Patel: Vaisnavism? Absolutely Vaisnavism.

Prabhupada: Anyone who… Mohammedan is also Vaisnavism.

Dr. Patel: Mohammedanism is not Vaisnavism.

Prabhupada: No, no. Caitanya Mahaprabhu had talk with the Pathanas. He proved that “Your religion is Vaisnavism.”

Dr. Patel: Christianity is Vaisnavism 100%.

Prabhupada: Therefore in Caitanya-caritamrta there is. I have already explained that.

Dr. Patel: No, Christianity is 100% Vaisnavism. I have studied Christianity very well.

Prabhupada: Not hundred percent, but…

Dr. Patel: More or less.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Page-1 he is condemning prabhupada for saying that the above religions are imperfect.

yes !! i dont support the veiw that there is only one perfect religion . if it has to do with imperfection it must be there in all faiths by varying degrees as no one can know god in totality .

now he is against prabhupada for inferring the opposite.

im against anyone trying to propagate that the fault lies with indian religions and hindu sects in exclusion of major world religions .

It doesn't mean that Prabhupada considered Muslims and Christians as Vaishnavas.

thats what he said and not just once !!

It simply means that fundamentally the Muslim and Christian theology is Vaishnava in as much as it promotes the concept of ONE supreme God.

 

The theology is Vaishnava-like.

The followers are pseudo-Vaishnavas.

 

thats what you think !!! fact remains unchanged................

every saint has a past , every sinner has a future .

if what you are today is the result of your past (karma) , the present (karma that you start doing today) can build your future . look to the future and learn from the past . dont brood over it .

srinvantu viswey amritasya putra ..........

listen o children of immortality ..........

you are god's child , leave him to his hands , surrender surrender surrender . he shall take care of you .

The reason they aren't considered as Vaishnavas is because ultimately they are impersonalists who believe in many gods and are against the idea of ONE supreme God.

there are many who are stern personalists .

all of them accept the supremacy of brahman , doesnt that amount to ' one god ' ?

Despite the meat-eating and violence to animals, at least the Christian theology and Muslim theology propose that there is ONE supreme God and they are against the impersonal idea that there are many gods like the ones you listed.

 

just see what a idiotic system you follow . it is specifically stated by prabhupada that meat eaters CANNOT be spiritual . going by this there is no question of islam or christianity being true faiths .

the latest addition to the phenomenon of worshipping god as mother was in the late nineteenth century . with the growing spirit of nationalism amongst the masses in india the idea of desamata or mother nation sprang forward into existence . it earliest roots can , however be traced back to the vedic era when our planet earth was compared to mother . phrases comparing earth with a feminine force is quite common for that era . but idea of the nation as a female principle is not that old .

this was perhaps because in a vast multicultural country like india each region differed from the other and identified itself as one particular nation . however it would be incorrect to say that there was absolutely no unity among different regions in india , common beliefs , practices , gods , scriptures maintened a definite national character which was properly projected in the colonial era .

the belief of earth as mother which was nourished in the minds of people for ages found its final shape in the personification of mother india . the most popular praise sung to her was composed by the renowned bengali writer vankim chandra chatterjee in the famous novel anandamath . it is the vande matram . it speaks of a sujala suphala ( plentiful ) green country which has the most beautiful moonlit nights abound with choicest flowers . she is ever smiling and has pleasing mannerisms . she herself is the durga of tem arms . it to her that we bow down .

in such a description we can see the way in which the prevalent shakta bhakti thought has merged into nationalistic ideals .

in this very book there is an interesting comparison between the past present and future of india . the past is shown as devi jagadhhatri , sitting on a lion .she is bedecked with every possible jewels and holds weapons in her arms . she is the queen of all nations -- rajrajeshwari . the present (those days) is compared to terrifying kali . she has been robbed of her jewels and stand naked . she is in ignorance and tramples her own good(shiva) under her feet . she resides in the crematorium like condition of colonial india under british subjugation. in the future she would become the durga . she would be at the top of all the nations once more . she has the complexion of molten gold . she has laxmi (wealth ) saraswati(knowledge and excellence) ganesh ( aupiciousness ) and kartik( strentgh ) at her disposal . she tramples all evil(mahishasur) at her feet . the king of beasts is her vahana.

numerous authors poets and politicians also contributed to the growth of this concept of mother india . some songs of rabindranath tagore stand out in particular--

you have come out of the heart of bangladesh(colonial state of bengal) in the form of a loving mother .

i keep on staring at your inexpressible beauty .

the doors have opened to a golden temple .

your right hand shines with a dreadfull scimitar,

but your left hand in raised in gesture of fearlessness (abhaya mudra) ,

your eyes are brimming with love and compassion ,

and yet your forehead is shining with anger .

o mother , what a form i behold before me !!

this expression of durga as mother india enabled the nationalist leaders to stck to their noble cause and ideals . somwhere in 1930's mahatma gandhi founded the bharatmata temple in varanasi . even today this thought remains strong in the country . quite unknowingly a predominantly shakta philosophy has found its way into and secured a firm foundation in the natinalist sentiments of modern india .

He who has no consiferation for Vedas and the Vedanta is talking about the Supreme Lord's descension.

in case you are not aware with the facts it was vivekananda who made vadanta a hugely poular philosophy in 19th century . and im a follower of ramakrishna vivekananda thought . its not that vedanta was unimportant or unknown before , but it was vivekananda who brought out the vedanta of the sages and hermits living in caves to the common masses and made it the central doctrine of hindu thought . after his huge an unprecedented success in india and west alike there in no sect or movements that can possibly do without vedanta today.

You think you can percieve the Entire truth of an Avatara ??

no , no one can !!

You talk of God as Infinte Compassion and Infinite Love,So your saying that Nirguna Brahm is Love and Compassion and has desires to exhibit his pastimes ??

 

which illustrious soul taught you that brahman is without love and compassion ? i have the deepest love and respect for saguna brahman . infact more than nirguna brahman .

Just look at your paltry knowlegde.You have absolutely no sense and you are talking as some mahatma.Just keep your knowledge to yourself.

 

first analyze your own level of courtsey ! did i talk with you ? did i refer to you ? no !!! i was replying to a question by connie when you stormed in with a series of idiotic allegations !! stop being so nosy into other peoples matters!! werent you taught the basic manners as a child ?

Don't just sit ther and expect us to accept your word for it.

i dont do anything with a expectation as to what ranjeet will think !!! you are free to leave the thread if its topic does not suit to your beliefs ...

To view Allah as a person is to invite his wrath - and the wrath of his followers.

 

Ironically, Shiva, Ganapathi, the tamil God Ayannar, etc., are persons, but thee is simply no way Prabhupada is going to call their followers Vaishnavas just because they accept personal Gods.

well said !!

a meat eater (including beef) , idol demolisher , orthodox muslim believing in allah in perfect exclusion of any other dieties appear vaishnav to prabhupada .

a meat eater( including beef) , anti idolatry , orthodox catholic with an absolute abhorrence towards pagan gods seem vaishnav to prabhupada .

and so on with all other world religions .

but sadly due to some unknown cause a vegetarian , truthful hindu shakta shaiva or ganapatya who shudders to think of eating a cow , following the vedas and puranas with full belief in personal god can never be a vaishnav .

ridiculous and insane !!! thats what it is !!

Are you saying that Vivekananda never smoked ???

 

Didn't Ramkrishna specifically instruct someone to 'fix a smoke' for Narendra ??

are you insane !! i think we were speaking of meat eating leading to satvik nature . wherefrom did this smoking thing come in ?

you can NEVER JUSTIFY such acts.

justify ? who shall justify whom ? me justify vivekananda or ramakrishna ? or would you try to justify ?

if ramakrishna is a mahatma as per kripalujis word then his teachings cannot be but beneficial . and he himself admitted that narendra is his greatest disciple . and when he allows narendra to smoke it is evident that he was least concerned about smoking . thus the act lies ' justified ' !!

but then again , why should i need to justify ? im not in a international spiritual court to evaluate spiritual leaders . nor am i trying to draw in a huge fan following , like you want to do for krishna .

please go back to the original point that you have made -- about meat eating .

Hṛdayānanda: (translating) What do we think of Jesus Christ, Mohammed, Buddha and other bogus persons and all these different messengers of God?

he has already made it evident on what he thinks or wants to continue thinking -- that they are all ' bogus ' !!!

unfortunately this mentality is still lingering on in present day iskcon followers of western descent ..

Narendra,a follower of Ramakrishna would smoke and he said,"Eating meat leads to sattva."

never did he say anything like this !! he specifically elaborated the two different interpretations of the fabled vedantic verse - aahaar suddhau satvasuddhau from the veiwpoints of advaita and vishistadvaita and specifically concluded that vegetariansm is desirable for people wishing to lead a solely spritual life whereas non - vegetarianism is necessary for material upliftment of any fallen race . he never advocated non vegetarianism as a way to be saatvik . it is only that he did not lay unnecessary importance to vegetariansm which had become the plague of the moment . like a orthodox brhamin feeding the cows and crows and letting his fellow men die of hunger .

as usual it shows your ill- education...........

Out of all the famous Vaishnavacharyas,it is the above personality you mention who has accepted Sri Ramakrishna's position as that of a mahatma.

It is funny you should taunt him in such a way .

i did not taunt anyone !! i just warned primate to stay off from what's evidently going to ensue !!

i dont care whether people follow ramakrishna or not . even vivekananda didnt want people to follow or worship him . neither would ramakrishna himself want to be worshipped . it is his teachings that are important in this age of violence and confusion . accepting his teachings are enough in my perspective . he came to educate people , not to create another sect .

"Millions" of mayavadis ??

Dude,some thousands were enough,please dont say there are millions of them.

yes , sorry for that !!

there is lot of difference between the ancient vaishnavism of ancient india and the modern vaishnav movements like hare krsna movement . the differences are plenty - for example the ancient vaishnavs never seperated themselves from mainstream hinduism , they had a deep respect for other gods like laxmi and durga and in their process never devalued other dieties . they didnt depreciate other deities to the level of demigods to glorify krishna . they did not lay more stress on puranas ignoring the importance of upanishads .

actually hes talking about maya

 

 

that one which deludes us

if thats the case then its different . but even then why should maya be cunning ? she merely does her own work and it is we who never try to come out of her grip . how many of us have ever sincerely tried ( or even thought of ) to escape her clutches ? she does not misguide us -- for ex , shastras have specifically said that any sexual activities are impediments towards self realization . but how many of us can actually show perfect brahmacharya ? her ( maya ) ways are quite clear . its only that we love to be spoilt at her hands . ramakrishna said dung beetles love to live in dung . what faults does she have ? nothing , i bet !!!

The Laxmi in the material world is a form of Durga.She is known as cunning and the diety of material opulence.

 

But the Laxmi in the Kshirsagara,is the Universal Mother,the origin of all.

do you want to specialise in writing nonsense ? a cunning goddess ?????? where on earth did you find this ? which sastra have ever used this term ?

well if you want to learn about hinduism proper strictly do away with the modern vaishnav movements for a start . they are all sectarian and preach supremacy or krishna or vishnu over the rest . possibilty is very high that with less knowledge you shall be brainwashed into their thinking . at least that what i see happeing even in india . !! there are countless ashrams all over but i feel that there is no slightest possiblity to understand hinduism in such a short span as 2 weeks . however if you continue nourishing your thirst for spiritual wisdom even after your holidays get over you shall slowly aqquire a better understanding . palces like vrindavan , varanasi , haridwar , kedarnath etc can be amazingly refreshing .

i would suggest to visit many asharms at the begining . talk with many saints and seekers . thish will initially open up your mind to all apparently contradictory beliefs and thoughts co existing in india and broaden your mind . slowly you shall notice that one particular path or ideology appeals to you more than the rest . understand that this is your path . after gaining firm convictions follow sadhana to realize what you have read all along .

but if you are lookin for mental an spiritual relaxation then perhaps so much would not be necessary. remeber that there is nothing more educating than travelling coupled with inquisitiveness , humility and openness to ideas ........

ranjeet !! for heavens sake , i wish to do a ct scan of your brain !! trust me it would be a medical and intellectual wonder .

I am totally fixed in firm conviction that Sri Krsna Bhakti is the ultimate means and goal.

great !! good !!

now why dont you start sadhana to see and feel it yourself if you are so convinced instead of wasting your invaluable human life here ?. as per my understanding one starts his sadhana after firm convictions .

I don’t see how this would prove that "Sri Krsna is the basis of Nirguna Brahm". It’s not explicitely stated. It says: in your Brahman aspect you are devoid of qualities, but in your Bhagavan aspect you may accept me..

dear primate ,

dont get into an argument with ranjeet . it is a clearly laid trap to make everyone start fighting all over again . such things have been discussed at lengths already . what might have been the need of picking up a same topic once more other than to create a heated debate?

secondly ranjeet is a eligible follower of kripalu maharaj who has not been defeated ever ( as per ranjeet words ) . instead it was maharaj-ji who defeated millions of mayavadi pundits in kashi . i dont think you can ever prove your points when your opponent is under the shelter of such a taarkik (ancient hindu honorary title conferred on argumentative highly educated shcolars ) guru .

sambya, I once heard a Tibetan "physician" teach how to incarnate, as technique. Is that for "avatars".

i dont think that one can be taught to incarnate . although there are some yoga -siddhis which enables an individual to attain some supernatural powers , reincarnation or rebirth is quite out of scope of such siddhis .

the kind of body that were going to take , the kind of behaviour or psycology that were going to exhibit , the kind of material pleasures that were going to get are all determined through our karmic book of accounts that is being computed and recomputed every second. you dont have any power to alter karmic law by any ordinary paranoramal powers. in fact everything we do , our very existence is the result of samskars or impressions aqquired in this or past lives . we cannot help but act in accordance with these samskars. no matter how hard a criminal tries he will retain his criminal traits that have been aqquired as past life samskars.

so our birth in this world is entirely governed by such material laws of nature like karma etc . but when god himself descends in a human form it is entirely different . an avatar is not forced to accept a body as a human . karmic laws does not determine his existence . he choses what he wishes to become . he volutarity descends to this earth . the infinite out of his infinite compassion and infinite love choses to finite itself . this is possible only because he is infinite. so an avataars descend is completely different from that of any ordinary mortal .

 

PURPORT

 

The word yavana means “meat-eater.” Anyone from a meat-eating community is called a yavana. One who does not strictly observe the Vedic regulative principles is called a mleccha. These words do not refer to any particular man. Even if a person is born in a brahmaëa, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra family, he is a mleccha or yavana if he does not strictly follow the regulative principles or if he eats meat.

 

with due respect to all , im extremely sorry but this is absolutely wrong . being born in india , and having known its culture , tradition and practices and literature since childhood i can say upon my word that this is direct misrepresentation of facts .

yavanas were originally used to mean the greeks after the alexanders invasion into the subcontinent . the generals and governors that he left here ( like selucus ) were called yavanas . however later this term began to be used to describe the muslims also when they came to the land about a thousand years ago . and at the time of chaitanya mhaprabhu it was broadly used to denote any non-hindu individuals coming from foreign lands . in this way buddhsts , jains and shiks , although non hindu did not fall into yavana catagory .

mlechha is a later day word in hinduism which also meant a non believer in sanatana dharma or vedas . this word particularly gained popularity in the last 500 years . it is synomynous to the muslim's kafir . now , obviously an hindu would look upon his culture and values as superior to the rest of the world . thus any un-hindu attitude or practice were termed as mlecchaachar ( the behaviour of the mlechhas ). the most prominent group to fall into the catagory of mlechhas were the muslims .

innumerable ancient and modern literature in almost all vernacular languages bear testimony of these facts . a touch of mlechha or muslim was fit to make you unclean . later when british , french and portugese arrived in the land with their east india companies the white men were also termed as mlechhas . jsut read through colonial history of india ( even just that of calcutta would do ) to find out for yourselfe who wer the mlechhas !!

socialising and dinning with an mlechha was an absolute no no !! these were essentially terms used to define a group on the basis of their country and religion . it had nothing to do with meat eating or behaviourial practices whatsoever . there have never been a situation where a non practicing hindu is termed as or reduced to the level of mlechhas . a caste hindu could socialise with a non practising hindu ( alcoholic or meat eater ) whithout the fear of being deserted in the society.

of course im not justifying this discrimation and encouraging such narrow practices of mideaval hindu society . but this purport directly changes the meaning of the words in the sense they were originally used .

why cant people simply accept the fact that certain malpractices had crept in the hindu fold which , through grace of god is no longer here. accept fact as it is !!

not tough to understand , it is a old tactic to supress the hard fact from the westerners and depict only the virtues of hinduism in order to win over converts ...

pray to god to give you strength to bear all troubles , no matter how serious it may be . once you are truly spiritual and have that inner strentgh nothing in this world can affect you . that would be an infinitely better way of living in this world than anything else.

surrender to him for bhakti . if he comes to like you who cares for money or fame . they shall come automatically . it might sound impractical at these hard times but its truth . wherever narayan resides laxmi is bound to come by to attend to him . install narayan in your heart !!!

After reading the Gita, I'm more convinced of the existence of Putana than my own existence.

even i dont like disbelieving them but at the same time they are not history in proper sense of term .

But no one can deny the fact that Varna is still there throughout the World.

 

Take for example an IT Company, we have Top LEVEL Manager and consultants who act like Brahmanas, who are the brain of the company. We do also have the Watchman, supervisors and guards et al as Ksatriyas, we have accountants, commerce managers, et al as Vaish and finally Sudras as the Software Engineers like myself.

 

Who says it is not in our society.

agreed !!