Narasingh

This interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's statements seems to say that actually we are in lila but that we have a dream to be an exploiter and we are trying to act upon it. Would this understanding incorporate the same sadhanas to "wake up" as the other understanding would incorporate to achieve the prayojana? Basically, we have a formula as follows. I am at Point A (sambandha), I want to get to Point B (prayojana), the path I need to travel is Line X (abhideya). So what is the prayojana? What is the nature of that prayojana? Is it one in which we are not saturated with prema in which every word is a song, every step is a dance, every stone is cintamani, every tree is wish fulfilling, every cow is surabhi. I can only begin to wonder what every dream is... OOOOPS It is a miserable dream in which we suffer endlessly. (Sounds like a little salt fell in the sweet rice.) What incentive would there be for anyone to develop bhakti if they are under the impression they have it already, just that they need to wake up. The analogy of a dream can be misleading in that one must assume they will wake up from a dream with no special endeavor. I'm sure Sarvah and Theist will likely qualify their analogies with need for sadhana and bhakti but this is an unnatural "argument". Afterall, I know that when I fall asleep I will wake up with no extra endeavor. The Glory of Vaikuntha is in its Perfection. Even the Goswamis in their prakata forms slept very little and while sleeping, dreamt only of their Istha Devatas. They cursed their eyelids for even blinking. One would think that taking the most worshipable place as of utmost importance one would not be able to tolerate the thought of its fallibility in that regard, nor tolerate the notion that they themselves could forget Rasaraj/Mahabhava for even a moment. This mood is given authority by our Goswamis and Mahaprabhu.

Hi, Pandora. You have previously been given a word झॅक . This would be more like jhuk with an aspirated j sound as though you were breathing out heavily at the same time as pronouncing the j sound. "jhuk" is a word relating to something smoked as in a room which has had a fire in it (a very smoky fire) etc... As devanagari does not have a z sound it has been accommodated in hindi (for common urdu words containing z sounds) as ज़ so you can write Zack like this... ज़ैक

जेदिन (jay-din)

निखिल

here is one a little more chaste to the phonetics of your name. आइज़िक सेम्युएल्ज़ (eye-zik sem-you-elz)

राजर्स raajars ए (sounds like ay as in hay) ई (sounds like ee as in eel) ज (j as in dg rodgers) स (s as in sound) र (r as in red) लव (love phonetically) प्रेम (prem) प्यार (pyaar)

मिशेल् with short i vowel (english type)मीशेल् with long i vowel (french type)

मेल्लिस

हर्जिन्देर सिन्घ झोत्ति in hindi

माई सन लूक in a strictly phonetical rendering By proper grammar it would be mera putra, luke or mera beta, luke the former being formal. These would look respectively like this, मेर पुत्र लूक मेर बेत लूक

This issue seems very much related to sambandha jnana

As you said, Beggar and Bija, at some point Ian may learn of the relationships between Srila Prabhupada and his god-brothers. And it is admirable to see a person trying to follow their heart's inspiration especially as it seems they haven't been accepted by anyone in particular as a student. In a theater, one may have to search for a particular seat, given their vision requirements. Yet the purpose is to partake in the theatricals not find the seat.

Thanks for your postings. I don't think you have anything to be apologetic for. Your quest is a noble one, pujala raga patha gaurava bhange. There are a couple things re: Sarvah's ideology which I would like bring attention to... The material world is a dream, Vaikuntha and Goloka exist within Brahmajyoti, once we attain to spiritual realization everything becomes sacred. It is found in numerous places that the material world is a reality, not a dream. It is like a dream in that you can wake up from it's illusionary effect but this plane is a reality. There are three general aspects of Krsna's Potency, that being Antaranga, Tatastha, and Bahiranga (the material energy). Vaikuntha/Goloka are real and exist separate from the Brahmajyoti. The Brahmajyoti is not the causative of Vaikuntha/Goloka. The last one is arguably the most dangerously misinterpreted perception in which, upon enlightment, everything becomes spiritual. This can be used as a last leverage for attachment to the mundane. It is long after we realize what exactly the illusion of Maya is and what spirituality isn't, that spirituality pervades our existence, not that we are pervaded first then realize. Lets not forget the stages and remember our true adhikara. Let us banish exploitation from our hearts and see everything as being for Him. Hare Krsna

You carefully steer clear of the direct controversy (at least in this immediate thread, in others I don't know) of whether the jiva fell from direct Lila to the abode of exploitative illusion or not. Does this issue fall under "theoretical knowledge"? In geometry, we are taught that the slightest variation in trajectories will lead to an exponential increase in the difference of two destinations.

There are, undoubtedly, many things which Srila Prabhupada said that are a bitter pill to swallow. Some things he said are justified in roundabout ways to this day. The position of women and blacks, as spoken about by Srila Prabhupada, are most often left out of conversations and most often issues of contention. The position of the jiva is another. When they are brought up it becomes an uncomfortable discussion with one wondering things like, exactly what role it plays in spirituality to announce the primitiveness of a certain race. These are the type of topics which make it difficult for persons to openly hear what Srila Prabhupada has to say. It is obvious for many that Srila Prabhupada opened the Gaudiya Vaishnava door to the west in a grandiose way and introduced all of his followers to others whom he felt qualified to guide. So, for those who are hesitant to hear from Srila Prabhupada in the beginning stages, with their current conceptions of right and wrong guiding them in decisive choices, it may just serve well enough to pass them along to others, in a benevolent way, knowing the beautiful gift Prabhupada has given us is there to be had by anyone who wants it.

There are more I can quote. But this serves my purpose. You might all be right with regards to Ian, but all these responses to him were simply uncalled for. He asked something directly and clearly, which would warrant a response or lack of one. I can assure you we come off arrogant and condescending by responding as above. Perhaps we do have more in common with "bible thumpers" than eastern spiritualists. Jeffster, your's was difficult to pick since you were actually very thoughtful in your responses.

The difficulty with this conversation is the notion of time and form. Mahaprabhu has stated: jiver swarup haya nitya krishna das krishner tatastha shakti bhedabhed prakas. Our swarup is Krishna Das and we are tatastha shakti. Will you uncover your true nature or discover your true nature? Even though the two words are close in meaning they are generally accepted to be subtley different.

Go to http://baraha.com and get yourself a wonderful, free program which will phonetically transliterate into your choice of 12 of the main languages of India. Bengali, Hindi, Sanskrit, Tamil, Malayalam, Kannada, and more

It looks like you must have the Folio, SarvaGatah. I'm sorry, I'm with Beggar on this. Cheers

Great topic bija! Start a thread!

Whatever gets you to surrender, friend. ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham mama vartmanuvartante manusyah partha sarvasah As much as you say one thing there will be someone to say another. Interpretations will be provided as well. After all, when one who searches in depth comes across Bhagavan Sri Krishna's statement: avyakto 'ksara ity uktas tam ahuh paramam gatim yam prapya na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama they will ask for a harmonization of your stance and His. How will you harmonize it? Will you say Krishna is wrong? How will one know of the Value and Glory of the Vaikuntha Realm as the Ultimate Destination when you are stating quite the opposite [that we are attracted to the material realm in a stronger way so as to leave Vaikuntha; that the pull of our "dream" is greater than the pull of True Existence]? I have to ask you, rhetorically, what color is Krishna? What kind of Body does He have which can accommodate interchangeable senses. What kind of Body do you have? Perhaps I was a little frivolous in my comment regarding "black holes" due to my deficiency of praman in this regard. However, this was in response to Avinash's post of Goloka being a black hole. Black holes are described in physics as a material vacuum where even light radiation cannot be untrapped. This is akin to the descriptions of material pralaya so I was just offering a different perspective which would be more in context of the happenings of a black hole. I don't know how you came up with the other adjectives though. Did I really appear that way? "Whether we came from Krishna’s pastimes or from some other spiritual source, Srila Prabhupada said, “at the present you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [to Krishna], never mind what is your origin.” This quote is clearly the most appropriate response and it shows Srila Prabhupada's mood of delivery; Whatever it takes to catalyze your surrender take. A dynamic, harmonious approach is always a good stand to take when one finds contradictory statements. Satyam eva Jayate!

Isn't it through the different degrees of affection one has for Krsna?

If you truly want to help someone, help yourself first. All the pictures shown by "krsna" are simply variances of what will happen to all of us in one way or another. This is a foundational understanding, a basis towards dynamic compassion. The misidentification of our selves is the root cause of all tragedies. Sure we should share our material wealth (undoubtedly) and not attempt to horde what we don't need for our bodies survival yet what good is "giving a man a fish" when you can "teach the man to fish" and above all "know why we should fish". In the end the question, "Why?" will need to be answered. Lets work on that along with our philanthropic charity.

No, No, No, The black holes of the universe are the skin pores of MahaVishnu breathing in. Goloka is far from there

We pray, and work, for the mercy of Mahaprabhu to pervade the globe.