Guruvani

Lord Brahma didn't have a living guru. He was not in the physical presence of his guru when he received diksha. He was millions of miles away from his Guru when he got initiated. However, he heard the voice of Sri Guru resonate within his own heart. He never received it through his ears, but through his heart.

Here's what gets me. A person gets a book from a Sankirtan devotee or sees a Sankirtan party, somehow comes to the temple, joins the kirtan, hears the mantra, chants the mantra, joins the temple, follows the principles and chants 16 rounds for 6 months and then the day comes when he get's so-called initiated into the Maha-mantra. I mean, wasn't his real initiation into the mantra the first time he heard it from some disciple of Prabhupada or heard a bunch of them chanting kirtan? He got the mantra from an initiated devotee who spoke the mantra into his ear. That wasn't initiation into the mantra? Then some day there is a fire sacrifice and he gets "initiated" by some ISKCON guru. What is the difference between the day another disciple of Prabhupada gave him the mantra and the day some so-called ISKCON guru gives him the mantra. It just seems to me that initiation as is it known today is just a formality, and that the real initiation was actually when he first got the mantra from the first devotee he ever met. Is there really some magic bullet that he gets at formal initiation that he didn't get from the first devotee that gave him the mantra to chant? Is formal initiation really all about substance or about credentials that support ones right to perpetuate the parampara? Is it about helping to build faith or is it about something magical and mystical that happens at formal initiation?

So, you proposition is that when the guru dies he is no longer siksha guru? At death he is no longer siksha guru or diksha guru? One has to be alive to be siksha guru? I don't think many devotees would agree with your idea about that. So, in other words, you are saying that Prabhupada is no kind of guru at all anymore in the Krishna consciousness movement. rtviks were living and they were also authorized siksha gurus as well. that was their qualification for being rtvik...... they were siksha gurus first and foremost! Only a siksha guru can perform rtvik function on behalf of his spiritual master.

But, this order of Mahaprabhu was to INSTRUCT everyone in Krishna consciousness. He did not formally accept Kurma as a disciple or perform an initiation ceremony. Instructing others is the work of the siksha guru. So, his only order was to become siksha guru, not diksha guru. He never said go "initiate everyone through diksha", he said go INSTRUCT everyone about Krishna.

http://www.hare-krishna.org/srila-prabhupada-books.htm

how nice! I am watching Rathayatra from my home in Florida!

Actually, in the Bhagavatam it says that the wind blows out of fear of God and all the planets stay in their proper oribt out of fear of God. Many of the demigods do fear Lord Vishnu and it is fear of his wrath that moves them to perform their functions without deviation. Fear of God is very much a principle in this Universe. It is the charming Krishna that removes that fear through his sweetness and mercy. Apart from the vraja-rasa, fear plays a strong part in an understanding of Godhead. Lord Vishnu holds a chakra and a club in his hands. This could be a little scary to think what he could do if he got mad.

I am quite familiar with this chapter of CC and I have often wondered if Kurma the brahmin ever received formal initiation. According to this narration, it appears that Mahaprabhu went all over South India giving siksha and there is no mention of his giving formal diksha to any of these people. It is said that Krishna consciousness spread throughout South India better than the rest of India including Bengal. According to this story, Mahaprabhu did not emphasize formal diksha at all. He simply gave siksha to all he met and told them to go back to their village and teach others about Krishna consciousness. It appears that Krishna consciousness spread all over South India by word of mouth without any so-called big gurus or acharyas other than Mahaprabhu.

ISKCON brahmanas do chant the brahma-gayatri....Om Bhur Bhuva sva.... They also chant guru bija mantra, guru mantra, Gaura-bija mantra, Gaura mantra,Krishna mantra and Kama-gayatri. That is seven mantras altogther.

The genie is out of the bottle! The Pandora's box has been opened! There ain't no goin' back to rtvik for ISKCON! I don't want to keep harping on the rtvik issue as if I am only a one dimensional mind that cannot accomodate alternatives and the fact that the rtvik system has been dead in ISKCON for about 26 years. After this long, it might be way more than wishful thinking to ever imagine that rtvik doctrine will ever make a comeback in ISKCON. I can also accomodate the guru system as the back-up system to a failed rtvik doctrine in ISKCON. I think that the rtvik advocates have some reasonable evidence to support their position. They are not pulling this idea out of thin air without any clue of reason. Prabhupada could have easily prevented this whole rtvik confusion with ONE SIMPLE STATEMENT. You would have thought that after establishing this rtvik system in ISKCON he would have taken care before he passed away to warn us all not to try and continue this system after his disappearance. Was Prabhupada so inattentive and reckless to forget to recall the gayatri tape and dismantle the rtvik system before he left? Instead, he passed on leaving his last official declaration as the rtvik appointments. That being said, I have no doubts that Prabhupada did not have a back-up system in place. That would be something like we have today - his leading disciples becoming initiating gurus etc. There are many references in his teachings to support a guru system of succession. I can accept that, though I think it was plan B if plan A failed. Plan A was the rtvik system, and not by preference of desire but by necessity. When Prabhupada left in 1977, none of his disciples were really mature enough or pure enough to assume the role of guru. Back then we all thought we were so advanced and pure. We thought we were fit to be guru - 26 years later we can look back and see that we were not - 26 years later maybe some have actually come close to fitting the bill. Prabhupada did not leave ISKCON with a rtvik system in place and no instructions to ever dismantle it because that was his preferred option. He left ISKCON with a rtvik system out of the force of no alternative. There was no alternative because there really were no disciples ready to be gurus in the true sense of sad-guru. What to do? Prabhupada did what he had to do as he had done all along in the work of establishing the Krishna consciousness movement, he made adjustments; time and circumstance created the necessity and he surrendered to that despite his own inner agony that indeed this was somewhat of a cheating process - a deviation from the tradition. Do you think Prabhupada did not agonize over these compromises and adjustments he made knowing full well that his Godbrothers and their disciples would not understand and make campaigns against the ISKCON system? Do you think that Prabhupada did not foresee a conflict between the ISKCON and his Godbrothers and their followers? Do you think that did not trouble him? Do you think that Prabhupada did not suffer much to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world? Sure, Prabhupada had a back-up to the rtvik system. But, foreseeing such tragedy and turmoil that came out of the premature guru system he did what he could to try and avoid that kind of disaster in ISKCON. There was no simple solution. Prabhupada had created so many devotees in such a short time and there was really none qualified to fill his shoes or even assume such great authority. Think back! When Prabhupada left this world his senior disciples were only 8 or ten years removed from total debauchery and degradation? They were ready to be gurus? My gosh........do you really think so? Did Prabhupada actually appoint 11 American boys as guru after they had been devotees for no more than 10 years? (Earth to ET.... ET call home!) For that matter in 1977 after the movement was a mere 11 years old, was anybody ready to be guru? Does a hippy become a pure devotee acharya in 10 years? Well, it's been alomst 26 years since Prabhupada has gone and maybe now some of these Godbrothers are mature enough and experienced enough to squeek by trying to be guru, but back in 1977 that was not the situation. Prabhupada probably did leave ISKCON with the rtvik system and intentions for it to remain in effect, but what is done is done and we are now left with a guru system and all the complexities it invloves. ISKCON has dwindled down to a mere shadow of it's former greatness in terms of the unity, harmony, cohesion, cooperation, expansion and missionary work through book distribution etc. Sure, Prabhupada had a back-up to the rtvik system and it has it's merits as well. What we can't deny is the tragedy and turmoil the movement has undergone in the course of getting to a reasonably stable society without one massive disaster after another. You can be guru! Be guru! Judgement awaits another day as to whether you are right or you are wrong. I am not the judge of that. It is Prabhupada you must face up to someday to account for yourself.

Islam needs to put down it's guns and stop this attempt to make the whole world bow to Allah at the barrel of an AK47. Whe ISLAM puts down it's guns and shows the world that they are truly about obediance and surrender to God(Allah) and not about world domination through gun-barrel conversion, the world will start to again respect and admire the Islamic faith. Presently, a huge sector of the Islamic faith has taken up arms in the attempt to topple western societies through force of violence. This is a formula for total failure and self-destruction. Islam can conquer the world through showing the beauty of the faith to the world and not by using suicide-bombers and AK47s to convert the infidels. Islam is a beautiful faith, with a history of the most magnificent art, culture and philosophy the world has known. The militant aspect of modern Islam is rapidly bringing the ruination of the religion as the entire western world has declared war on it. Islamic terrorists are the real enemy of Islam, not the great satan of America. Islam is freely practiced in America. This is not the work of Satan.

In this thread I am not attempting to promote rtvik theory or discuss the concept or it's relevance to ISKCON and the Krishna consciousness movement. What I would like to hear from any senior and scholarly type devotees like maybe Jagat, Madhavananda prabhu etc. is some input on whether or not the parampara traditionally recognized one Acharya, perhaps the most learned and experienced or senior Vaishnava as THE ACHARYA instead of something like we have in ISKCON today where there are supposedly dozens of acharyas/gurus acting simultaneously within the framework of a society of devotees. Junior disciples of Prabhupada are acting as guru in the presence of senior disciples. It seems to me from what we can see of the tradition is that most often the humble Vaishnavas of the past usually deferred any aspiring disciples to the most senior or otherwise learned and qualified Vaishnava that was present within the society at the time. Did the great Goswamis of Vrindavan all accept disciples simultaneously, or was one of them respected as the leader whom all the others recognized as THE ACHARYA? I have to admit my ignorance in this regard. I could probably go to the books and find out something, but for the sake of discussion I am opening up the topic for discussion and would like to hear especially from the scholarly devotees on this issue. Prabhupada has described the offense of maryada-vyatikrama in his books. It is the offense of overstepping senior Vaishnavas and being impertinent to their advancement. If we take this principle to the fullest application, it would seem that there would be ONE senior Vaishnava within the society of devotees who would be recognized as THE ACHARYA, as opposed to the system of having so many junior Vaishnavas acting as acharya in the presence of senior, more advanced Vaishnavas. Please help me understand this matter. sincerely, Ksamabuddhi das

However, Prabhupada said that working for someone else is the the job of a dog. He wanted to create a Varnashram society wherein everyone was working for Krishna and getting sufficient remuneration from a Monarchy-like spiritual communism goverment.......called ISKCON. Prabhupada never wanted his disciples to have to go out into the karmi sector and work like dogs for non-devotees. He wanted to created a microcosm society in ISKCON and establish a varnashrama type society. All this failed along with the failure to obey his most basic directive that placed him as the Monarch of the ISKCON society...for all time!

Your accusataions are actually criticims of Srila Prabhupada as he is the one who instituted the rtvik system in ISKCON and signed his final directive that it would continue from that day on. Your offenses are to Prabhupada directly and not to those who simply repeat his orders and directives. You are boiling in your own oil from bitterness and spite. Don't blame others when they try to be loyal to the orders of Srila Prabhupada. Getting angry and spouting off vengeful diatribes only exposes the true qualities within that caused you to reject Prabhupada for your own concocted ideas.

It was interesting to note that Prabhupada instructed Pradyumna to use unrefined/raw sugar. I have long felt that white sugar should not have been used in the temples as they use cow bones in the process of making the sugar white I have heard. I have been anti-white sugar ever since I left temple life. I am a strong advocate against white sugar and I am so pleased to know that Prabhupada wanted raw sugar to be used instead of white sugar. ISKCON has never applied this instruction of Srila Prabhupada and to this day they still use white sugar in the temples. This is a good example of how ISKCON took on a life of it's own apart from the design of Srila Prabhupada, and many features of ISKCON that we ascribed to Srila Prabhupada was not his way at all. Many, many things in ISKCON were the creations of his disciples who felt they were authorized to implement their own ideas. What came to be known as ISKCON was something like a Frankenstein monster created by disciples who couldn't understand the value of doing it exactly as Prabhupada had said.

I am not saying that. Maybe we could say that the GBC and the 11 original rtviks disobeyed Srila Prabhupada. There are some ISKCON gurus who cannot be blamed for the initial deviation by the GBC. There are some really wonderful devotees in ISKCON and some of them have accepted disciples. Lokanatha Maharaja, Svarupa Damodara Maharaja and many others had nothing to do with the inititial deviations by the GBC and they cannot be faulted for trying to make the best of a bad situation and going ahead to accept their own disciples. My main grievance is with the 11 original gurus who pressured the GBC into accepting them as diksha gurus after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada. It was actually, Bhagavan das, Kirtanananda Swami and Tamal Krishna Maharaja who spearheaded the move to change the status of the original 11 rtviks to diksha gurus. Some of the other 11 just went along to get along. What happened after that is simply an effort to make the new system work. Narayana Maharaja was a major influence on these 11 and the GBC to abandon the rtvik system with his opposition to it. I don't condemn ISKCON gurus wholesale. We can trace the original deviation back to the orignal 11 who aggreed with these three main instigators to abandon the rtvik system for the diksha guru system. I personally have the highet admiration for some of the ISKCON gurus, though I have some grievance with the orignal 11 who conducted the conspiracy and pressured the GBC to endorse their intentions.

Prabhupada signed this decree and the wording of it said "henceforward". Let's look at the dictionary meaning of "henceforward": hence[forth 7hens fCrth$, hens4fCr0#8 adv. 5ME hennesforth: see prec. & FORTH6 1 from this time on: also hence#for$ward 73fCr4w!rd8 "FROM THIS TIME ON" is what the dictionary says. Prabhupada singed the document with it's implications that "FROM THIS TIME ON" this system will be in place. If it was meant to last only until Prabhupada's disappearance, Prabhupada would have made them correct the wording to "until Prabhupada is gone". All we can really do is accept this final decree of Srila Prabhupada face value with it's wording of "henceforeward" (from this time on). To interpret it as meaning anything else is a deviation from the actual implied meaning of the words as given in the English language.

What was Prabhupada's last personally signed declaration regarding the system of initiation in ISCKON? Was the "disciple of my disciple" conversation an officially signed and decreed document? (no) If the "disciple of my disciple" conversation was not Prabhupada's final directives for the future of ISKCON then what was? The last signed declaration by Srila Prabhupada was: ISKCON INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS Founder-Acharya: His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada July 9th, 1977 To All G.B.C., and Temple Presidents Dear Maharajas and Prabhus, Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as "rittik"-representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity: • His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami • His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami • His Holiness Jayapataka Swami • His Holiness Tamala Krsna Gosvami • His Holiness Hrdayananda Gosvami • His Holiness Bhavananda Gosvami • His Holiness Hamsaduta Swami • His Holiness Ramesvara Swami • His Holiness Harikesa Swami • His Grace Bhagavan dasa Adhikari • His Grace Jayatirtha dasa Adhikari In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace's "Initiated Disciples" book. Hoping this finds you all well. Your servant, Tamala Krsna Gosvami Secretary to Srila Prabhupada Approved: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami [srila Prabhupada's signature appears on the original]

maybe because I remember that so many disciples of Srila Prabhupada were expelled from ISKCON to make room for the disciples of the Godbrothers. Hundreds of Prabhupada's disciples were displaced by the disciples of the Godbrothers. I am not negative. I am a realist who saw negative things happen and I am just reporting the facts.

What's the difference. The disciples of ISKCON gurus have already overrun ISKCON. ISKCON has already been been lost. There is a small group of Prabhupada disciples at the top and a large group of their disciples poised to capture the movement wholesale. Who knows where it will end when there are disciples of a hundred different ISKCON gurus fighting over the temples and assets. ISKCON is relic now. It is not Prabhupada's movement. By the time the second generation of disciples start the takeover it will be all out war over the temples and properties and ISKCON will have become a burden on Mahaprabhu's movement and a disgrace to Srila Prabhupada. What could have prevented that? rtvik method.

yeah, let's get that straw man! This discussion here seems to be on about the same level as something YOUR STRAWMAN would be talking about.

yeah, let's get that straw man! This discussion here seems to be on about the same level as something YOUR STRAWMAN would be talking about.

"One should therefore avoid observing a pure devotee externally, but should try to see the internal features and understand how he is engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. In this way one can avoid seeing the pure devotee from a material point of view, and thus one can gradually become a purified devotee himself." Srila Prabhupada NOI

<font color="blue">Where did Prabhupada ever say that the next self-effulgent acharya would become the head of the Gaudiya Math? Maybe the self-effulgent acharya would leave aside all his neophyte Godbrothers and start the mission anew without all those people that had disgusted Bhaktisiddhanta so much that he left this world years early? We can actually see that the most successful self-effulgent acharya did actually that and did not ever become the head of the Gaudiya Math. Actually, none of the greatest disciples of Saraswati Goswami ever become successor to Gaudiya Math. They each and every one went out and started their own missions.</font color>

<font color="blue">Actually, the self-effulgence of a devotee is how he radiates service and sacrifice to execute the orders of his spiritual master. He is self-effulgent in his service and ability to represent his spiritual master, not through some light that emanates from him like the impersonal brahmajyoti.</font color>