Guruvani

The argument that the July 9 declaration of rtvik succession is the words of Tamal Krishna Maharaja is not a valid argument because when Srila Prabhupada signed the document Prabhupada expressed his approval 100%. Prabhupada was no fool to sign something he did not personally instruct his disciples to write. When Prabhupada put his signature on that document, those words became his words, his declaration and his direct order.

True, but not all "old school" Gaudiya Math sannyasis have the same position on issues. Sridhar Maharaja supported Prabhupada 100% while some others opposed him. We have to know the difference between these two different attitudes. In support of Srila Prabhupada, Sridhar Maharaja introduced rtvik doctrine into his own Math. Others, like Narayana Maharaja violently opposed the rtvik doctrine with strong words. It is "not all one" brotha!

Prabhupada gave the example many times that when something material is dovetailed into the service of Krishna it loses it's material qualities and acts like spiritual energy. In this way the tapes and videos of Prabhupada become spiritualized and act just like the original. To say that Prabhupada's words become "materialized" by tape recording goes against the teachings of Rupa Goswami and Srila Prabhupada. The gayatri tape serves the same function as the original speaking by Srila Prabhupada because it has been touched by his transcendental potency.

Prabhupada said several times in his books that by associating with the devotees of ISKCON people would get this kind of sadhu sanga. Some people today like to discount all of Prabhupada's disciples as sadhu and claim that only a couple of old Gaudiya Math sannyasis are sadhu. This is clearly a huge offense to the many disciples of Prabhuapda who have given their lives to Prabhupada and the movement. ISKCON is sadhu sanga and there is no need to go searching around India for some old school Gaudiya Math sannyasi in the name of sadhu sanga.

There are some very advanced Madhva sampradaya scholars who support the rtvik doctrine for ISKCON. It is not just some upstart disciples who promote rtvik. For your information I will present some material on this matter: Madhva Sampradaya Scholars Support Ritvik ----------------- BY ISKCON BANGALORE BANGALORE, INDIA, Jan 28 (VNN) — When we (devotees at ISKCON Bangalore) came to know that HG Basugosh Prabhu, was arranging a conference of Madhvas & Srivaishnava Scholars to discuss the guru issue, we vehemently opposed. As we found no authorization from Srila Prabhupada for such an exercise. We see HG Basugosh Prabhus' postings are misleading devotees around the world by his one sided presentation. However, since the exercise has begun we find it only appropriate to present the response of these scholars what they actually say on this issue after objectively presenting the guru issue to them. HG Vidvan Gauranga Das had written in one of the postings on Chakra about these scholars: 'Vidyavachaspati' Bannanje Govindachar: Disciple of Vidyamanya Tirtha Swami, Mathadhisa of Palimara Matha. He is a very prominent lecturer and scholar, recognized by the 8 mathas. Bannanje Govindachar, the Maadhva devotee-scholar was awarded the title: 'Vidyaa-vaachaspati' by one of the 8 Madhva-mathas. (read the interview posted with Govindachar) Sri Sri Rangapriya Swami Desikachar: A broad-minded Sri Vaishnava scholar and sannyasi. He was previously a professor in National College, Bangalore. He is a Sanskrit scholar. He has disciples who come from Smaarta, Sri Vaishnava and Maadhva backgrounds. (for the information of the readers, these two above mentioned scholars were not invited to the conference by HG Basugosh Prabhu!) The following was a short interview with HH Rangapriya Swami: Question: According to Srila Prabhupada's letter of July 9th, 1977, if we accept Srila Prabhupada as the diksa guru and receive initiation from the ritviks, is this system in accordance to sastric principles, what is your holiness' opinion? HH Rangapriya Swami: It appears from the system of initiation that Srila Prabhupada has proposed in his letter of July 9th 1977, that he wished to remain the diksha-acharya, vanquish sinful reactions of the disciples, take the responsibility of delivering his disciples and this way continue the parampara through the rtviks. This is a new system. Since such new systems have been created in the past by the acaryas, it appears that Srila Prabhupada desired such a system. This is our humble opinion and it is not in violation of any shastric principles. Question: Do we have to fear that the Parampara will stop if we follow the ritvik system? HH Rangapriya Swami: By this system we do not have to fear that the parampara may stop. The rtviks belong to his parampara. The new disciples also belong to his parampara. Who ever follows his instructions also belong to his parampara. His books will represent him; his peeta (the sacred seat) will represent him; his sandals will represent him; his murtis will represent him. Question: If we ask the new disciples initiated by this system, 'Whose disciple are you?" what should they say? HH Rangapriya Swami: They should say, 'Srila Prabhupada is my guru.' Others can be called ritviks and can be respected for their seniority. Question: As long as ISKCON exists, can this system be followed? HH Rangapriya Swami: Yes, there is no problem. Copy of the letter given to ISKCON: 11.1.99 I have acquainted myself with the life and message of His Holiness Srila Prabhupada including his message in the letter of July 9th, 1977. I also understand there is some controversy going on among the disciples of the great guru regarding the positions of the diksha guru and officiating acharyas called rtvik acharyas who give diksha as deputees of the original acharya, even as Prince Bharata officiated as the ruler on behalf of Sri Rama's padukas. In this connection, keeping in view the spirit of Srila Prabhupada and the continuation of the great tradition given by him, we recommend that the office of the rtvik acharyas should continue as intended by Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada's system accords a unique position to the acarya by declaring that he should be a Master Yogin, who takes upon himself the spiritual responsibility of the disciples including the destruction of all their sins and deserves worship due to Bhagavan Himself. The rtvik acharya continue the line of HH Srila Prabhupada, and he should be accorded reverence in accordance with his contributions. But he should not be considered as an object of meditation and worship. Nor should he be considered as infallible. He should be appointed by the governing council and give diksha as a deputee of Srila Prabhupada without violating the letter and spirit of his message. The rtvik system propounded by Srila Prabhupada does not violate in anyway the shastras' injunctions. Signed. Rangapriya Swami.

Prabhupada's will deals with properties and assets. His will is about legal matters concering the temples and properties of ISKCON. The will was made to conform to inheritance laws and all the legal aspects of transferral of titles etc. Prabhupada's legal will, that was drawn up in consultation with lawyers is not the document we should be looking at to find Prabhupada's declaration of spiritual succession. Prabhupada's declaration of spiritual succession was the rtvik appointments of July 9 1977. This was Prabhupada's last and final word on how initiation would go on in ISKCON after his departure. He signed this document and a copy was sent out to all the temples in the movement. The will was just a legal document regarding the properties and has nothing to do with the spiritual side of Prabhupada's declaration of spiritual succession. Here again we have the "smoke and mirrors" game to try and ignore or conceal Prabhupada's July 9 declaration of spiritual succession for ISKCON - the rtvik appointments!

You are asking to do a very difficult thing. It is almost impossible to get someone to stop drinking or smoking unless they have some desire to do so. Trying to MAKE other people stop such habits is next to impossible. My opinion is that you should just show them a lot of love and compassion, kindness and concern and maybe you can be an example of how sobriety is more fun than being intoxicated. The botton line is that you should not really be trying to change others by pressure or force. If you can just be an example of the power and beauty of chanting Hare Krishna they might be won over by your example. Dogging them and nagging them is not going to really open their eyes. Gradually teach them about the higher meaning of life and the need to soberly cultivate spiritual knowledge. It is very difficult for a young person to get an old person to give up intoxication. They need to get into a group of adults who are working as a peer group to each other to stop drinking. If the person has no interest or desire to stop drinking, then you are probably not going to get them to stop. Best thing is just try to save yourself. Trying to save the world is not possible until you have saved yourself.

You can get questions like this answered at a web site call askjeeves.com You just put in your questions and hit the button and Jeeves will give you your answer. Gluten comes from wheat. You can make gluten by taking wheat dough and soaking it in water and squeezing out the milky portion till only the rubbery gluten is left. It used as a meat replacement in some vegan dishes. It is not used very much in Indian cooking. It can be hard to digest unless cooked and prepared properly. I am not a big fan of gluten. Milk curd is way better than gluten. Fried curd is the ultimate veggie meat.

So, you are saying that anybody can be a rtvik official appointed by Prabhupada? You are saying that Prabhupada appointed unqualified men to be rtvik? Did Prabhupada appoint "officials" out of unfit, unqualified persons who could not give instructions on Krishna consciousness? Prabhupada appointed the most senior and experienced disciples to be rtvik. They had been siksha gurus in ISKCON for years training new devotees and teaching them Krishna consciousness. But, once they get rtvik appointment they are no longer siksha guru anymore? There is no qualification to represent Prabhupada? Prabhupada said rtvik means "representative". Sridhar Maharaja said rtvik means "representative". You can say that a rtvik is just an official, but that is just your unqualified opinion which contradicts Prabhupada's description of what is a rtvik.

Again, try to understand - Aryan is not a race or a genetic line. Aryan is a term to describe the followers of the Vedas. Even a black African who follows the Vedas is an Aryan, whereas a person born in a Hindu Brahmin family is not an Aryan if he does not follow the Vedic religion.

Again, try to understand - Aryan is not a race or a genetic line. Aryan is a term to describe the followers of the Vedas. Even a black African who follows the Vedas is an Aryan, whereas a person born in a Hindu Brahmin family is not an Aryan if he does not follow the Vedic religion.

I don't know how ready I am to take instructions from someone who doesn't even know how to spell "vartma pradarshaka" guru. This term "vartma-pradarshaka" is not found in Prabhupada's books and I can't even remember where it is mentioned at all other than being tossed around in devotee discussions. A sannyasi who has been rtvik power on behalf of Prabhupada did not get that authority without being a siksha guru. Anyone who gives instructions on the science of Krishna consciouseness is a siksha guru. A vartma-pradarshaka guru is not a real guru really. He is just some person who recommends you to become a devotee and his instructions stop after that. Even the prostitute who first inspired Bilvamangal Thakur to take to Krishna consciousness was considered a siksha guru and all she did was tell him that he should seek out Krishna, she gave no other relevant instructions. Vartma pradarshaka is a very rare term in the books of the acharyas and right off the bat I can't even think of one reference to such anywhere in Prabhupada's books. Rtviks are siksha gurus and that was their qualification for getting rtvik authority from Prabhupada. Somebody who can't even spell vartma-pradarshaka is hardly in a postion to be giving intructions on whether rtvik is bona-fide or not.

Vedic knowledge descends through sruti of "that which is heard". We have seen in the shastra that reading the scriptures is the same as hearing. In other words, Vedic knowledge is not acquired via the ascending process but rather the descending process. Sruti is sound. The gayatri tape of Prabhupada is sound. The Vedic rule of sruti only requires that the knowledge comes through sound. There is no stricture that the sound cannot be recorded in the ether and heard from distance places. When Prabhupada chanted gayatri on the tape, the tape became spiritualized like a red-hot iron in fire and the tapes acts exactly like the original sound. Criticisms of the recorded sounds(gayatri tape in particular) are coming from persons who listen to TAPES of their ISKCON or Gaudiya Math guru as well. If tape recorded sounds are empty useless sounds then why are there tapes of Narayana Maharaja or other Gaudiya Math gurus? Prior to Prabhupada the recording of the actual sounds of the Acharya never existed before. Many things about Prabhupada's ministry were unprecedented. Maybe that is why rtvik is unprecedented as well. There are no videos or audios of the predecessor acharyas. That makes Prabhupada unique and original and not quite limited to the same constraints of the past acharyas.

from what I have heard it is not that easy to get initiation from an ISKCON guru nowadays and all the requirements must be met strictly. your example of the Gaudiya Math type Vaishnavas initiating at the drop of a hat violates Prabhupada's standards and has nothing to do with "helping" Prabhupada or "serving" Prabhupada but has much to do with disturbing the movement and interfering with Prabhupada's mission.

I can't argue with that scenario and indeed I can see how such a viewpoint by new devotees has a lot of merit. However, Vaishnavas are humble to a fault, to a pathetic degree and if a devotee genuinely feels himself inferior to another Vaishnava it will be practically impossible to get him to accept disciples in the presence of some higher, senior Vaishnava. He would feel within himself that he would be cheating the disciple and even though the new devotee can't understand, he would continue to try and show him how the senior Vaishnava should be approached by the candidate. Maybe, after years of persistence, he would accept the disciple if in the long run the relationship proved to be unbreakable and deeply serious. To quickly initiate new devotees while they are so inexperienced and spiritually infantile is not a good sign of one's motive. This kind of guru-disciple relationship has a lot to do with the cheaters and the cheated and not much to do with proper humilty and Vaishnava behaviour. A sannyasi should not be flattered by new devotees and overcome by sentiment. He should move very cautiously and deliberately to accept disciples and not with the reckless abandon we have seen since the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

I agree with that, yet, if a preacher has no Vaishnava that he looks up to and reveres or admires, then he must feel that he himself is the best Vaishnava of all. If he does have some high regard for another senior Vaishnava then his natural tendency will be to express his high regard for the senior Vaishnava, give his endorsement and then let the new devotee take his time and make his own decision. Some new devotees coming to the movement might not be aware that many sannyasis have gone down and gone away and created massive disturbances to the movement. They might be naive and gullible and easily taken advantage of. They should understand that accepting a spiritual master is not a fad or fashion even among devotees - that it is a very serious and eternal committment in sacred service. The higher seed should be sown or there will eventually be some unfortunate situations when the naive new devotee gets more learned and experienced and his perspective matures and evolves.

I understand that angle. However, a brand new neophyte devotee has very little qualification for understanding how to make the best choice when accpeting a guru. In the beginning he might have some "crush" on a sannyasi to be his spiritual master, but later he might find out that there is a much more senior, perhaps elderly Bengali Vaishnava that he finds to be much more dear to his heart. Then, what to do? He prematurely accepted some American Swami as guru and then later came to appreciate an elderly Bengali Vaishnava much more than his so-called guru and then starts to feel like he does not want to be the disciple of the American Swami because be does not approve of some of his business practices or whatever. The point is, a responsible preacher will give the new devotee the best advice and direct him to the higher, more experienced Vaishnava despite some sentiment on the part of the new devotee to become a disciple. The new devotees should not be allowed to make a "guru" out of a junior Vaishnava when senior, more experienced Vaishnavas are available. New devotees should not be allowed to dictate the etiquette and culture of Vaishnavism. The system of respecting the senior Vaishnava should be taught to them and they should not be allowed to learn imperitinence and insubordination. We actually have examples of this exact scenario, and the outcome was unfortunate for both the sannyasi and the disciple who wanted to transfer his service from an American sannyasi to Sridhar Maharaja. The situation became ugly, offenses were commited against Sridhar Maharaja and the whole mess was very unfortunate.

Krishna das Kaviraja prostrates himself before those who READ this book. The purport by Prabhupada equates reading to be the same as hearing.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja gave the example that in the presence of higher Vaishnavas, junior Vaishnavas should defer the candidates to the higher Vaishnava. He said that if a higher, better seed is available one should not sow the lower quality seeds. Sometimes we find junior Vaishnavas actually competing with very much senior Vaishnavas rather than serving them. According to Sridhar Maharaja this is an offense. To become guru means to think that there is no higher Vaishnava available, that my seed is the highest. This is a very dangerous mindset and a dead giveaway of personally motivated ambition. In a situation like Prabhupada's he was a natural acharya, but in today's international Vaishnava society it is a different story. When senior Vaishnavas like Prabhupada's Godbrothers or senior sannyasis like Narayana Maharaja or Govinda Maharaja are available it seems like the right thing to do is defer new candidates to these greatly senior Vaishnavas. Just because we bring some new devotee to accept Krishna consciousenss, that does not really give us claim to them as our own disciples. I brought a famous ISKCON artist to the temple at the time he became a devotee, but that does not give me the right to claim him as my disciple.

I remember reading somewhere in CC where Prabhuapda says that a neophyte devotee should actually serve the spiritual master from a distance, because if he gets too close he might start to see the spiritual master as an ordinary human. then he says something about serving the vani is more important than serving the vapuh. anybody know where that reference is right off the bat?

One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the çästric injunctions. Çré Jéva Gosvämé advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding. CC Adi 1 text35 purport

I am quite tickled to find that you did not understand my vision of the second-coming of ISKCON as nothing more than a silly joke. I will never be any kind of guru in ISKCON or outside of ISKCON. Being guru is not even the remotest possibility for me. I support Prabhupada's version of rtvik ISKCON and I have have absolutely no desire or interest to be guru. My mission is to try and become a disciple someday - being guru is not in the cards for me. I have three children I am raising. My mission is to try and instill some Krishna consciousness in them and hope that someday they might take to Krishna consciousness seriously. Me guru? never!

this is the real message new devotees should be getting. they can serve Prabhuapda by serving his instructions. this purport in essence says that one can approach and serve Prabhupada even today by following his instructions that are in his books for the whole world to follow. formal initiation is no where near as important as the spiritual initiation of receiving Prabhuapda's instructions.

Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja both instituted the rtvik system and neither one said a word about it stopping after their disappearance. Don't you think they woulld have foreseen difficulties in some some disciples trying to continue rtvik after they were gone. You don't think they were wise enough to declare the rtvik system as terminated after their departure? Neither one did. You are in essensce calling Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja as impersonalists. Nobody but them introudced the concept into the movement and neither one said a single word about it stopping after their disapprearance. Actually, the anti-rtvik people are the greatest impersonalists of all because they say that you cannot have a connection to Prabhupada anymore. They say Prabhupada is dead and he is not guru anymore. I can't think of a more impersonal view than telling new devotees that they cannot be disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

I would have expected to hear this kind of opinion from an ISKCON guru. I hardly think a disciple of an ISKCON guru is objective enough to make a fair evaluation of this. I have already had both my initiations from Srila Prabhupada in ISKCON before he passed away. My rtvik faith is not something I want because I am some uninitiated devotee who wants to be a disciple of Prabhupada after he is gone. I personally have no preference for the rtvik system apart from the fact that Prabhupada wanted it to remain in ISKCON for all time. My concern is for the good of others, I have nothing to profit from it.