Guruvani

that means that Jagai and Madhai also belonged to the pure Aryan race.

that means that Jagai and Madhai also belonged to the pure Aryan race.

So, all of Prabhupada's efforts to build a society of devotees and all his instructions for the guidance of that society are not relevant? Prabhupada refers to ISKCON many times in his books and thereofer we must look to ISKCON to see what he was indicating through such instruction. ISKCON is very much a factor in the life and teachings of Srila Prabhupada and to say otherwise is pure denial.

I saw so-called senior sannyasis falling asleep during Prabhuapda's classes and they did the same thing to Sridhar Maharaja. So much for the feeding frenzy theory. The feeding frenzy was more about trying to get position in ISKCON by using "personal servant" status than it was about some special electricity during personal contact. Actually, Prabhupada has warned in the CC that neophytes should see the spiritual master from a distance because if they get too close they might start to see him as an ordinary man. Many of Prabhupada's intimate disciples have fallen down while others who were less imitimate or not intimate at all have done better than them. The falldown record of the intimate disciples is no better than that of the distant disciples. I think this proves the MAGIC BULLET theory as bogus. Prabhupada did not support the MAGIC BULLET theory or otherwise he would not have initiated disciples through the rtvik system. Otherwise, we have to accept Prabhupada as a cheater who enticed devotees with his books and then denied them actual contact and the MAGIC BULLET diksha.

This thread started out nicely with a quote from Srila Sridhar Maharaja and then some unregistered guest jumps in and starts talking about Gaura Govinda Maharaja. Is this some confusion on the part of the guest? Gaura Govinda Maharaja had no connection to Sridhar Maharaja that I know of, but I would like to know something about how he felt towards Sridhar Maharaja if anybody in here has any insight into that. Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaja is the disciple of Sridhar Maharaja and is not to be confused with Gaura Govinda Maharaja. I don't know much about Gaura Govinda Maharaja, as I am personally attracted to Sridhar Maharaja and his followers like Govinda Maharaja. Maybe the guest is just confused? I don't see the relevance to Gaura Govinda Maharaja in a thread that is discussing some quotes from Sridhar Maharaja.

If you read that very nice essay about the Vedic explanation of sound you will find that: "Persons who are learned and who have true knowledge define sound as that which conveys the idea of an object, indicates the presence of a speaker and constitutes the subtle form of ether." The transmitting of an idea or concept is the inner function of sound. Sound is the medium by which an idea or concept is transmitted from one person to another. In Krishna conciousness, sound is the medium in which the IDEA, CONCEPT of Krishna and love of Krishna is transmitted. The IDEA or the concept is the subtle message that the sound is meant to convey. Language and literature is also a very efficiant resource for transmitting the IDEA and CONCEPT of Krishna, serving Krishna and all the details of both. There is no MAGIC BULLET in the sound that comes from the pure devotee apart from the IDEAS, CONCEPTS and INSTRUCTIONS they impart to awaken the dormant love of Krishna that is innate in all souls. This MAGIC BULLET propaganda that hearing directly from some so-called rasika-acharya will imbue one will special power and mercy is not based on the Vedic idea of sound and it's function but is based on the sentimental cheating propensities of self-interested individuals. Sound transmits the idea, the concept and the instructions. What one does with that information determines the effect of that sound and not some so-called MAGIC, MYSTICAL power of the sound itself. We need to remember that Krishna is not a sound. He is a person, a spiritual being with feelings. His Holy Name is not a sound. He is a person - the supreme Person. Krishna is not a sound vibration. He is pure spirit.

The original idea for a society of devotees that live together for the purpose of cultivating Krishna conciousness comes from Srila Rupa Goswami. Srila Prabhupada starts The Nectar of Instruction by saying: "The Krishna consciousness movement is conducted under the supervision of Srila Rüpa Gosvämé". ISKCON was Srila Prabhupada's attempt to make that ideal of Srila Rupa Goswami a reality for devotees all over the world. Beginning with Srila Rupa Goswami there was seen a necessity for devotees to have their own society, their own sub-culture as a microcosm within the ordinary civil society. Srila Prabhupada was very adament that it was not possible to cultivate Krishna consciousness properly outside of the society of devotees. I believe that it was in the Krishna Book that he said that anyone who thinks they can be Krishna conscious living outside the Krishna consciousness movement is living in a great hallucination. ISKCON is not about "society consciousness" or "rules and regulations" consciousness that has become a popular term used in the devaluing and belittleing of ISKCON. ISKCON is about Prabhupada's answer to Srila Rupa Goswami's call for devotees to combine and unite in a society for the purpose of cultivating and propogating Krishna consciousness. A unified and cohesive society of devotees is the command and call of Srila Rupa Goswami. It is not some neophyte's "society consciousness" that can be attacked and villifed as external and superfluous. The minimizing of the importance of keeping Prabhupada's mission alive and flourishing is very unfortunate and offensive. The success of ISKCON is the success of all the devotess and the failure of ISKCON is the failure to succeed in Prabhupada's mission to establish the devotee society that was the vision of Srila Rupa Goswami. Failure is not an option! Splintering and factioning is not an option! Allowing Prabhupada's antogonists to disrupt and impede his mission is not an option! Minimizing the importance of ISKCON is not an option! For the disciples of Srila Prabhuapda the only option is to somehow or other unite and work together cooperatively. Sure, ISKCON has become a topheavy bureaucracy with too many by-laws and bureaucrats. That needs to be rectified and ISKCON needs a more fluid and flexible administrative approach. However, the work to build and promote the international society of devotees that Srila Prabhupada established has to be continued, has to be completed and has to be accomplished. If not under the banner of Prabhupada and ISCKON, then what hope is there for establishing this international society of devotees to provide sanctuary and haven for all the suffering devotees in the world? Is Prabhupada's ISCKON going to be pushed by the wayside and rejected for a splintered and scattered alliance with those who have no allegiance or affiliation with ISKCON? Is a catastrophic desertion of Prabhupada for the company of anti-ISKCON Gaudiya Math type sadhus who oppose Prabhupada's innovations the real solution? Prabhupada deserves the right of leading and unifying the international society of devotees. The dispersal and disintegration of ISKCON for a broken, belligerant, antagonisitic variety of sects and cults is not what Prabhuapda envisioned as the fullfillment of Rupa Goswami's vision of an international society of devotees. It is not the fullfillment of Rupa Goswami's vision. It is maya's attempt at impeding the fullfillment of the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami. ISKCON was supposed to be about Dhaiva Varnashram - a society and culture of devotees working in a practical way to meet the needs of human society. The act of interfering with the fulfillment of that mission and creating a broken, disjointed, scattered smattering of devotees living within the ranks and confines of ordinary society has nothing to do with the fullfillment of Srila Rupa Goswamis vision for the Krishna consciousness movement. Prabhupada wanted to provide a haven, a Shangri-La for devotees. He did not wander about the Earth initiating anyone that walked up to just leave them abandoned and isolated without support, association. temples and service. He was not a cheater like those people. Prabhupada organized a movement, a society, a sub-culture for devotees to have the tools and facilities to make Krishna consciousness a practical lifestyle instead of a hopeless, impractical and indeed IMPOSSIBLE ideal. If not Prabhuapda, if not ISKCON, then who, what, when and how will there ever be the international society of devotees working together for a common goal? The view that devotees can just be initiated all over the world and then left without any support structure, without any temple and without a Varnashram social structure, is a very feeble and foolish effort that cheats devotees for the sake of someone's personal ambitions. ISKCON is not about society consciousness. It is about fullfilling the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami. Disrupting and interfering with ISKCON is nothing less than disrupting and interfering with the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami. Rejecting ISKCON to chase after some so-called rasika-acharya who has no vision or committment to fullfill this mission of Srila Prabhuapda to provide a working model of Vaishnava society as a sub-culture and counterculture to ordinary society is not helping the mission of Srila Prabhuapda. It is rather obstructing and opposing the mission of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Rupa Goswami. Everybody likes to talk about "love of Krishna" and "rejecting society consciousness for Krishna consciousness", but without the success of ISKCON there will be no "love of Krishna" if all the devotees are imbedded and integrated into ordinary mundane society and surrounded by bad association and not having any meaningful work in the Varnashram culture of a Krishna conscious sub-culture. Talk about society consciousness? Here's your society consciousness - living seperate from ISKCON within the rank and file of ordinary society and claiming to be a lover of Krishna while rejecting the only movement that has the potential to build a practical working model of Varnashram culture that can save us from the Hells we call cities that we are so attached to! Indeed, as Prabhuapda has said in the Krishna Book, "Anyone who thinks they can be Krishna conscious outside this movement is living in a great hallucination". Lover of Krishna? Or, lover of Maya in the name of rasika acharya?

I have noticed there there is a class of devotee in these forums who reject the ISKCON gurus, reject the ritvik doctrine and reject the GBC. They seem to feel that they have a direct connection to Prabhupada though they have never been formally initiated by Prabhupada or anyone else as far as that goes. My curiousity is; if they do not accept the ritvik doctrine, do not accept the ISKCON diksha gurus, do not accept the GBC - then what is their proposal for how ISKCON should continue in the absence of Srila Prabhupada. Do they propose that some Gaudiya Math type guru become the new acharya of ISKCON even though they all have severe differences with Srila Prabhupada? Do they propose that ISKCON be dismantled or dispersed? If we reject ritvik and ISKCON gurus both, then what is the proposed alternative to these two solutions for the future of ISKCON?

I very much appreciated your commentary in the above post. I would just like to interject that the initiation of Bhaktivinode by Jagannatha das Babaji that Srila Prabhupada alluded to could have been the form of initiation that is not openly discussed, but is only referred to in a subtle almost hidden form. The initiation that I am referring to is raga-marga diksha or initiation into spontaneuous love beyond regulative principles. This form of initiation is nicely disguised and hidden by the bona-fide acharyas. They do not speak of it directly but only in a disguised and hidden way that the casual observer cannot catch up to. Beyond Hari-nama diksha, beyond Gayatri upaniti, there is the secret and sacred initiation into spontaneuous loving service - Raga-marga diksha. Therefore when Prabhupada says that Bhaktivinode was initiated by Jagannatha das Babaji he might not have been referring to Hari-nama diksha or gayatri upaniti, rather the secret and sacred Raga-marga diksha that is the path of spontaneuous love. Srila Prabhupada also initiated his disciples into Raga-marga, though it was done in a hidden and concealed manner that is not understood by the casual observer. Raga-marga diksha is the most secret and sacred initiation of the Gaudiya line. The babajis know that, yet the modern days babajis like to make it cheap, open and easy. That is not the real tradition of the Gaudiyas. Raga-marga is the most secret of initiations. It is not referred to directly and openly. It is the hidden treasure of the Gaudiya sampradaya. Let's keep it that way. Krishna is known as Veda-guhya, which means he is hidden within the Vedas. He is there in the Vedas but is hidden and only the pure devotees can find him there. Raga-marga diksha is something like that. It has been given by Prabhupada to all his disciples but in a secret hidden way. It is not even so secret and hidden. You just have to know what you are looking for and you can see it all over the place in Prabhupada's teachings.

I really enjoyed the Flash video also. I feel inspired to get my son to make something like that. He works with Flash and it would be good for him to do some Krishna consciousness Flash animations.

In opposition to the theory that one must have a living guru to get inspiration to pursue Krishna consciousness and love of Krishna, I would just like to describe my own experience and how the books and tapes of Prabhupada were all I needed to give up everything and join the movement. My first experience of Eastern religion/yoga etc. came just a few weeks before I got out of the Navy in 1975. I was a jet engine Mechanic at the Naval Air Station, Oceana, Virginia. I was turning in some paperwork on a job we had just done and I saw a book on the desk of the clerk in the AIMD office. The book was "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Yogananda. As I put down the paperwork, the clerk noticed that I was looking at the book. He asked me if I knew anything about Yoga and I told him that I didn't know anything about yoga. He immediatly asked me if I would be willing to learn about yoga from him because he was a disciple of Swami Vishnudevananda and he was a yoga teacher in that line. I told that that I would be willing to learn about it from him. He asked me if he could come to my house and give me some yoga lessons and I agreed. He came to my house and brought some books about yoga and vegetarianism. Then he took me to the book store and showed me the Metaphysical book section. I bought some books. It only took that one meeting with him to send me into an intense study of Eastern religion, yoga, meditation etc. I was studying every yoga book I could find and also reading about Edgar Cayce, Nostradamus etc. etc. At that point I had never heard of Hare Krishna or anything about Prabhupada or the Krishna consciousness movement. I got out of the Navy in January of 1975 and went back to my home town to stay with my parents and figure out what I was going to do next. Shortly after going back to my hometown in Indiana, I hooked up with some old friends and started teaching my new found yoga lifestyle to them. One day I went the home of a friend to have a yoga class with a couple of my best friends. In the course of that evening, one of my friends told me that earlier that day he had got a book at the mall from some guy who walked up to him and asked for a donation for the book. He went and got the book and showed it to me. It was so beautiful. I was immediatly attracted to the picture of Radha-Krishna on the front and Prabhupada on the back. It was the small paperback edition of "Nectar of Devotion" that was being distributed back then. I was browsing through the book but it all appeared so deep and new to me. Then my frined opened it up to a page where the Maha-mantra was underlined and he said that the guy who sold him the book said that you were supposed to chant this mantra. I looked at the mantra and said "Hair Kirzna Hair Kirzna", he said no that is not the way to say it. He then said "Harray Krishna Harray Krishna" and that was the first time I had ever heard the mantra. My friend asked me if I knew what the book was about and I said "no, but I am going to spend the rest of my life trying to understand this book". I asked my friend if he would sell me the book and said that he wanted to keep it. The next day I started going to book stores all over Indianapolis to try and find that book but I couldn't find it in the book stores. A few days later I went to a hippy-style record shop in Broadripple Village (Karma Records) near Purdue University and there is where I finally found the book. It was the older edition - the big white paperback from earlier printings. I also found some of the small books like "Perfection of Yoga" etc. and a couple of the Bhagavatam volumes. I went home and secluded myself for several weeks and read all of these books several times each. My whole perception of life changed. The world of Krishna consciousness opened up to me. After that I found an edition of the Macmillon gita in a book store. I went into a few more weeks of seclusion and read it through a couple of times. I was completely convinced about Krishna consciousness and none of the other yoga books meant anything to me any more. I was exclusively converted to bhakti-yoga over all other yogas. Soon, I found some BTGs at the record store. I ordered some of Prabhupada lectures and the Yoga system series. I listened to them all and was immersed in the pusuit of Krishna consciuosness. I had never been to a temple in my life, never tasted prasadam, never seen a devotee, but through Prabhupada's books and tapes alone I had decided to commit my whole life and give up everything to go join the temple in L.A. a few weeks later. After arriving at the temple I was the first devotee to enter Danavir prabhu's bhakta program and trained very strictly by him. I remember how I was a little aggravated that sometimes new devotees who had come to the temple were trying to preach to me even though all they had ever read was one little book. I knew a lot more about the philosophy than them but because they had joined a few days before me they thought they knew more. That was my little disappointment was that after joining the temple I found that I was only hearing the same things that I had already learned in Prabhupada's books. I didn't feel that anybody could really tell me anything I hadn't already learned on my own from reading Prabhupada's books. I did learn some things about the practical habits of devotees and temple living and I did love being at the temple, though I have always been one whose real base is in Prabhupada's books and tapes and not the so-called living sadhu nonsense that you hear so much about today. I didn't need any so-called sadhu to bring me to Prabhupada or explain his books to me. I could read them for myself and understand it quite easily. For me, the books have always been a source of the purest nectar and deepest connection to Prabhupada and I wouldn't trade Prabhupada's books for all the so-called living sadhus on the planet.

In opposition to the theory that one must have a living guru to get inspiration to pursue Krishna consciousness and love of Krishna, I would just like to describe my own experience and how the books and tapes of Prabhupada were all I needed to give up everything and join the movement. My first experience of Eastern religion/yoga etc. came just a few weeks before I got out of the Navy in 1975. I was a jet engine Mechanic at the Naval Air Station, Oceana, Virginia. I was turning in some paperwork on a job we had just done and I saw a book on the desk of the clerk in the AIMD office. The book was "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Yogananda. As I put down the paperwork, the clerk noticed that I was looking at the book. He asked me if I knew anything about Yoga and I told him that I didn't know anything about yoga. He immediatly asked me if I would be willing to learn about yoga from him because he was a disciple of Swami Vishnudevananda and he was a yoga teacher in that line. I told that that I would be willing to learn about it from him. He asked me if he could come to my house and give me some yoga lessons and I agreed. He came to my house and brought some books about yoga and vegetarianism. Then he took me to the book store and showed me the Metaphysical book section. I bought some books. It only took that one meeting with him to send me into an intense study of Eastern religion, yoga, meditation etc. I was studying every yoga book I could find and also reading about Edgar Cayce, Nostradamus etc. etc. At that point I had never heard of Hare Krishna or anything about Prabhupada or the Krishna consciousness movement. I got out of the Navy in January of 1975 and went back to my home town to stay with my parents and figure out what I was going to do next. Shortly after going back to my hometown in Indiana, I hooked up with some old friends and started teaching my new found yoga lifestyle to them. One day I went the home of a friend to have a yoga class with a couple of my best friends. In the course of that evening, one of my friends told me that earlier that day he had got a book at the mall from some guy who walked up to him and asked for a donation for the book. He went and got the book and showed it to me. It was so beautiful. I was immediatly attracted to the picture of Radha-Krishna on the front and Prabhupada on the back. It was the small paperback edition of "Nectar of Devotion" that was being distributed back then. I was browsing through the book but it all appeared so deep and new to me. Then my frined opened it up to a page where the Maha-mantra was underlined and he said that the guy who sold him the book said that you were supposed to chant this mantra. I looked at the mantra and said "Hair Kirzna Hair Kirzna", he said no that is not the way to say it. He then said "Harray Krishna Harray Krishna" and that was the first time I had ever heard the mantra. My friend asked me if I knew what the book was about and I said "no, but I am going to spend the rest of my life trying to understand this book". I asked my friend if he would sell me the book and said that he wanted to keep it. The next day I started going to book stores all over Indianapolis to try and find that book but I couldn't find it in the book stores. A few days later I went to a hippy-style record shop in Broadripple Village (Karma Records) near Purdue University and there is where I finally found the book. It was the older edition - the big white paperback from earlier printings. I also found some of the small books like "Perfection of Yoga" etc. and a couple of the Bhagavatam volumes. I went home and secluded myself for several weeks and read all of these books several times each. My whole perception of life changed. The world of Krishna consciousness opened up to me. After that I found an edition of the Macmillon gita in a book store. I went into a few more weeks of seclusion and read it through a couple of times. I was completely convinced about Krishna consciousness and none of the other yoga books meant anything to me any more. I was exclusively converted to bhakti-yoga over all other yogas. Soon, I found some BTGs at the record store. I ordered some of Prabhupada lectures and the Yoga system series. I listened to them all and was immersed in the pusuit of Krishna consciuosness. I had never been to a temple in my life, never tasted prasadam, never seen a devotee, but through Prabhupada's books and tapes alone I had decided to commit my whole life and give up everything to go join the temple in L.A. a few weeks later. After arriving at the temple I was the first devotee to enter Danavir prabhu's bhakta program and trained very strictly by him. I remember how I was a little aggravated that sometimes new devotees who had come to the temple were trying to preach to me even though all they had ever read was one little book. I knew a lot more about the philosophy than them but because they had joined a few days before me they thought they knew more. That was my little disappointment was that after joining the temple I found that I was only hearing the same things that I had already learned in Prabhupada's books. I didn't feel that anybody could really tell me anything I hadn't already learned on my own from reading Prabhupada's books. I did learn some things about the practical habits of devotees and temple living and I did love being at the temple, though I have always been one whose real base is in Prabhupada's books and tapes and not the so-called living sadhu nonsense that you hear so much about today. I didn't need any so-called sadhu to bring me to Prabhupada or explain his books to me. I could read them for myself and understand it quite easily. For me, the books have always been a source of the purest nectar and deepest connection to Prabhupada and I wouldn't trade Prabhupada's books for all the so-called living sadhus on the planet.

Krishna is really the only siksha and diksha guru. Whoever becomes the medium for him to give his siksha or diksha is respected as siksha or diksha guru. In CC. it is said that the prostitute who first inspired Bilvamangal Thakur to seek Krishna was his siksha guru. If prostitutes can be siksha gurus then I would imagine that a sannyasi/rtvik could also be a siksha guru.

Please practice your English somewhere else. Trying to have a discussion with somebody that can't speak the language of this forum is too frustrating. You might be a bright mind in your own language, but you appear as retard trying to communicate in a language you can barely speak.

I just read through the article "The Vedic conception of Sound in four Features" and did not find statements by the author like "the outer portion of sound that we hear comes from the tape recorder". Please show me where the author of the article has made this statement! It does say that even the sound that is audible on the level of speech is vaikhari or the grossest form of sound. What this article does not explain is that Krishna is independent and absolute and can appear in any sound on any level. Krishna can be in a gross sound just as easily as he can be in the most subtle form of sound. We cannot limit Krishna and say that he cannot be in a gross form of sound. Krishna can appear in the sound of a dog barking if he so wants to. He is all powerful and can do anything he wishes. Krishna appears in the form of gross matter as the deity. He can also appear in the gross form of sound and nothing is dictated by the chanter or the chanted. It all depends on the will of Krishna and there is no force that can stop him from appearing in gross external sound and no force that can make him appear in the subtle form of sound if he so refuses.

If we buy into the theories that only the sound coming from a living pure devotee is transcedental, then why did Prabhupada have a tape ministry? If such sound was empty useless sound vibrations then it would have been cheating on the part of Prabhupada to have a tape ministry. Prabhupada gave gayatri mantra by tape while he was present on Earth. To say that recorded sounds are not sabdha is a way of saying that Prabhupada was a cheater and a fool. Krishna can be in any sound vibration he chooses to as it is all part of his energy. Krishna can also not be in the sounds coming from so called living gurus who are no more than cheaters and liars. To say that Krishna is not here or not there is not Krishna conciousness. Krishna is everywhere and he can manifest his potency as he pleases.

It is nice that big, big Gaudiya Math Swamis have said that Prabhupada's recorded sounds are material sounds that are only the outer covering of the sabdha brahma. Then he has an internet ministry, tape ministry and video ministry. I guess the recorded message is only bogus when it is Prabhupada's, but when it is some Gaudiya Math guru or some babaji the recorded sound is spiritual? Hypocrites and cheaters is all they are! They only want to disrupt ISKCON and convert the masses to their own worship, that is easy to see unless you are blind and deaf!

Well, when I have to decide whose opinion I am going to accept; the opinon of greatly learned sannyasis of the Madhva sampradaya or the opinion of disciples of ISKCON gurus or ISKCON renegade gurus, I will certainly take the opinion of the Madhva scholars that rtvik is legitimate. The disciples or followers of unauthorized gurus will never be a good council to make a judgement on the rtvik system. Their opinion is inherently biased and prejudiced and unworthy of any serious credibility when it comes to making a judgement on the legitimacy of the rtvik system. I prefer to hear the opinions of unbiased, uninvolved third parties who can look at the evidence and make a fair judgement. Scholars of the Madhva sampradaya have looked at this situation and concluded that Prabhupada wanted a rtvik system and that rtvik doctrine is not against the laws of the shastra. The opinions of upstart ISKCON gurus and their followers is not a valid opinion. They have their positions and livelyhoods on the line and they cannot make a good judgement based on the facts alone. Their opinion is based on emotional fanaticism and party spirit. When one cannot defeat rtvik doctrine with legitimate evidence they resort to name calling and character assasination. This kind of angry spew is a poor excuse for winning the debate.

It's always good to keep in mind that imitating Prabhupada is not following him. Following Prabhupada is something completely different than imitating him. Hasn't there been enough scandal and controversy surrounding so many so-called successors who turned out to be pedophiles and madmen? We have good reason to never accept another one of these imitators ever again. Prabhupada said that when he is gone everything will be done by his books. He repeated that over and over again. He never said we needed any so-called sadhu who interferes with his movement or anything else. He said after he is gone everything will be done by his books. He said everything he has to say has been said in his books. We don't need to be in his presence to bother him with stupid foolish questions like I have heard being asked of some so-called sadhu who goes all over the world initiating anybody that walks in the room.

You can't be a real rtvik without being a real disciple. Being a real disciple makes one a guru. A real guru follows his gurus instructions - he does not imitate him! A rtvik is also a guru. You cannot represent Srila Prabhupada without being a being a rtvik. Prabhupada said rtvik means "representative". I guess it is wrong to be a representative of Srila Prabhupada instead of representing ourselves? I don't intend on being a rtvik or a guru. My wish is to someday be a sincere disciple, but I refuse to be rtvik or guru. If you people think I am saying that I want to be a rtvik someday then you are so very wrong. I have not one iota of interest to function as rtvik for myself. I do support the Godbrothers who are sincere and want to function as rtvik.

Sorry Ghari, I know you have been on the wrong side of this issue for a long time and unwilling to admit you are wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence. I don't have any so-called guru who is actually an offender that i am trying to defend. You have nothing left to resort to except name calling and attacking my sincerity. I have nothing to lose or gain on this issue. I only speak on behalf of the truth and I have nothing at stake here. I am not out to defend or assault anyone. If anyone is offended by the truth then they have a real serious problem. I am a recluse. I seek no profit, prestige or following as a rtvik advocate. I only want that Prabhupada's real intentions be known. If so many foolish imitators are exposed in the process, then that is just their problem for imitating Prabhupada instead of following his instructions.

From the above quote we must also conclude that the person Bhagavat must also be as good as the book Bhagavat which is "SPOTLESS". If any guru is spotless then he is as good as the book Bhagavat - the AMALA-PURANA (spotless purana). Nowadays we see that so-called Vaishnavas and gurus who have a history of offending great acharyas like Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada (though they claim to be followers of both) are being passed off as "RASIK ACHARYAS" who are as good as the book Bhagavata when in fact they commit offenses on the level of neophytes or even demons. Sure, a person Bhagavat is as good as the book Bhagavat, but to find a person that is really a Bhagavat by qualification and not by so much unqualified praise by foolish neophyte followers is the real problem. Bhagavats are not established by the majority vote of a bunch of neophyte followers. A person Bhagavat is qualified by a spotless character. Committing offenses to great acharyas is hardly the sign of a Bhagavat. It is very difficult to find a living Bhagavat, but the book Bhagavat of Srila Prabhuapada is available anywhere in the world. One can mail-order the book Bhagavat from anywhere and rest-assured that he won't be misled. Getting involved with a false person Bhagavat is just going to result in so much waste of time trying to get absolute truth from a cheater.

Yes Prabhupada said "granddisciples" after Tamal said; "NO! Whos disicples will they be". If you look at the conversation in full from the beginning you will see that Prabhupada answered the question "How will initiations go on after you are gone" by saying "I will appoint some of you to act as officiating acharya". Tamal then replied "is that called rtvik acharya" and Prabhupada said "yes,rtvik". After expressing their confusion and actually disappointment with that answer, Prabhupada could see that they were not going to obey so he made some little concession under pressure and duress. If they would have just accepted Prabhupada's answer without pressuring him and showing so much disatisfaction, the conversation would have ended with the rtvik statement. The conversation continued as Tamal said "NO". In other words he just told Prabhupada that they were not going to accept the rtvik system and he kept bothering Prabhupada until he got a little something to satisfy his demands to become guru after Prabhupada was gone. here's the conversation taken in it's parts: Satsvarupa Goswami: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation(s) would be conducted? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya(s). Tamal Krsna Goswami: Is that called ritvik acarya? Srila Prabhupada: "ritvik. Yes". ------------------------------- It is clear from the very beginning that Prabhuapda said that they would be rtviks. Isn't Prabhupada's intentions clear? What was the need to keep pushing the issue? They kept pushing the issue because they were trying to force Prabhupada into saying what they wanted to hear which is that they were going to be gurus. Everything after this is just so much pressure and manipulation to try to lead the conversation to the point where they could confuse the issue enough to be able to screw out of this conversation what they wanted to get from it for their own purposes. Prabhupada says; Tamal Krsna Goswami: They are his disciples (?) Srila Prabhupada: Who is initiating ... his grand-disciple . ------------------------ Prabhupada clearly says that they will be the grand-disciple of the initiator who is him. This means that they are initiated by him and placed under the direct supervision and training of the rtviks and all senior ISKCON devotees. In this way they are also disciples of the rtviks, though not in a formal way as with Prabhupada as the initiator via the rtvik system of tapes and books.

At this point Mr. Stonehearted, I am starting to understand why you call yourself stonehearted. Signed or countersigned, it really doesn't matter. Prabhuapda's signed the document and I am sure he read it before he signed it. Prabhupada was not in the business of having his disciples tell him what to do. Signed is signed. When prabhupada signed the document it means that the document represents his wishes and his declaration of spiritual succession. At this point I think that you are just refusing to accept that you have been wrong about the rtvik issue for many years and can't accept the facts. Many scholars and neutral third parties have looked at the situation and concluded that Prabhupada wanted the rtvik system to succeed him after passing. The opinion of ISKCON gurus and their disciples is hardly an unbiased opinion. Neither is the opinion of Gaudiya Math sannyasis who serve to benefit out of the destruction of the rtvik system in ISKCON. Neutral third parties can easily see that Prabhupada wanted the rtvik system to continue in ISKCON after his passing.

No, your theory is not correct because Prabhupada authorized the GBC to appoint more rtviks in the future as necessary. If he did not expect it to last for a long time, even after his departure, he would not have given the GBC authority to appoint more rtviks in the future. The reference to the 11 was valid at the time, so they were mentioned. That does not mean that is was limited to them for all time, but for the time being they were the only rtviks that had been sanctioned.