Guruvani

Did Lord Nityananda deserve to be hit in the head with a broken pot and wounded?

Did Haridasa Thakur deserve to be caned in 21 market places?

Before we go to write off everything that happens as "karma" we need to take into consideration the intervention, mercy and dispensation of Lord Krishna.

Sometimes, what appears to be karma is actually the intervention of Lord Krishna whose ways are inconceivable but always have a design and a master plan for the welfare of the living entities.

I would propose that we cannot write off every adversity and misfortune as karma.

If we attempt to do so we are writing off the mercy and intervention of Lord Krishna who is always trying to stear the living entities in the right direction towards eternal life of bliss and knowledge.

What is karma?

Isn't karma the way that Krishna directs the material nature to do his bidding in rectifying the misguided mentality of the conditioned souls?

Can karma be anything other than Krishna trying to reward and punish good and bad behaviour?

Srila Prabhupada never gave the GBC any authority or right to pontificate on who can be guru and why.

This kind of lunacy is what has me convinced that I could never again in my life have anything to do with ISKCON.

Why do you want to play little semantic games with Prabhupada's statement? The point he was making is that his Godbrothers did not step forward to help him in his worldwide preaching endeavor even after he pleaded with them.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.28.31 purport,

The disciples of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja are all Godbrothers, and although there are some differences of opinion, and although we are not acting conjointly, every one of us is spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement according to his own capacity and producing many disciples to spread it all over the world.

Obviously, Srila Prabhupada encouraged his Godbrothers to preach all over the world and create many disciples all over the world to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world.

When some Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada finally made some headway with international preaching, the ISKCON cronies all complained and wanted to stop such preaching by the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada.

The fact of the matter is that all the modern devotees that are familiar with the Gaudiya Matha school and those that are familiar with non-Saraswata Gaudiya parivars as well all conclude that in fact the fall-from-vaikuntha and it's extreme form of dreamervadi theory had nothing to do with Gaudiya Vaishnavism before some oddball ISKCON people invented it by extrapolating extreme interpretations of some allegorical instructions that Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami told to some neophyte western people.

The fall-from-vaikuntha and the dreamervadi theory are both ISKCON anomalies that have resulted from Srila Prabhupada's perplexity in trying to find the best way to spoon-feed Gaudiya Vaishnavism to western people.

Before ISKCON, the fall-from-vaikuntha and the dreamervadi theory were not at all associated with Gaudiya siddhanta.

Some neophyte people from the western world created that fairytale from some allegorical ideas that Srila Prabhupada used in his preaching work.

It had nothing to do with Gaudiya Vaishnavism prior to ISKCON.

Unless some people want to say that Srila Prabhupada changed the Gaudiya siddhanta and preached something new, we cannot accept the fall-from-vaikuntha or the dreamervada theory that has been fashioned by ISKCON devotees by taking extreme liberties with the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Do you see where I'm going with this?

Yes, I see you are going in circles chasing your tale.

That's an evasive answer, however true it is.

The supreme absolute is always very evasive.

We want to catch it, cage it and put it in a box we call the mind, but that is always an impossible dream.

Thinking that you fell from Goloka is similar to sahajiya practice of thinking you are a gopi.

I totally agree.

I think it is a new version of the sahajiya mentality.

Sleepervada is the ISKCON version of sahajiya mentality.

Now I'm even more confused. Are you saying Krishna's energy is finite?

If Krishna wants to be finite he can be.

He is not just the greatest of the great but the smallest of the small.

The infinite can be finite if he so chooses.

That is why he is called God.

Krishna can reduce the unlimited down to a speck of dust if he wants too.

"Prabhupada said".

But, it is not in shastra.

A handful of off-the-cuff remarks by Srila Prabhupada in his perplexity about how to preach to all these derelicts who were following him around is not enough to change Gaudiya siddhanta with.

So?

Srila Prabhupada didn't feel that these people were capable of grasping the truth so he told them a little fairytale to keep them interested and make it all sound so easy.

Fact is........ none of them have just woken-up one day and found themselves in Goloka.

Attaining love of Krishna is a process of step-by-step progress.

It's not just a snap of the fingers and waking up in Goloka like the dreamervadis say.

The wake-up in Goloka fairytale ignores all the progressive steps that the Mahaprabhu and the Goswamis have explained as leading to bhava bhakti.

You don't just wake-up in Goloka.

You have to go through the progressive steps and evolve through the progressive layers of reality to attain Goloka.

Would you rather I wrote in German or 'Australian'

Better for you is to just stop writing and read the books of Srila Prabhupada for another 20 years before you attempt to explain the Gaudiya siddhanta to anyone.

Don't write.

Just read, read and read.

If you stopped writing and started reading you would find out your dreamervada is just a fairytale.

Vigraha,

None of the senior disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur ever advocated or acccepted anything close to your dreamervadi philosophy.

Srila Prabhupada refuted such idiotic thinking several times in his books as he explained that there is NO falling down from Vaikuntha.

Why don't you just stop your idiotic rant to challenge traditional Gaudiya siddhanta with your fairytale nonsense?

Only the most fringe elements of the Hare Krishna movement buy into your foolish rant to challenge traditional Gaudiya siddhanta with your fairytale.

Even the BBT scholars reject such nonsense.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja's reply, according to Gurudev, is that he would be most honored to be a "mere" karatal player in the Sankirttan Movement of Sriman Mahaprabhu.

That is not the way I heard it.

I heard that Srila Sridhar Maharaja said he would be honored to be a bell-ringer in the movement of Swami Maharaja Srila Prabhupada.

But, I heard it during the time of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, not 20 years later.

Where do these (See the topic) come from? Do they originate from God?

They originated in the minds of fallen jiva souls ensnared in the lovely form of Maya Devi.

What's 25% of infinity? Just curious.

I think that the concept of percentages of energies has been misunderstood by many devotees for many years.

I have come to consider that it means that if Krishna has a certain number of energies that he employs in different ways, the he uses 25 % of those energies for the material creation.

It is not a matter of 25% percent of infinity.

It is a matter of 25% of the different forms of energy that Krishna uses in his pastimes.

There is no such thing as 25% of the infinite.

Ultimately, Krishna has ONE energy that he manifests in different ways.

Of the many ways that Krishna manifests his energy, 25% of the ways Krishna manifests his energy is used in the material creation.

That means that in the spiritual world there is 75% more variety in the ways that Krishna manifests his energy.

Sat-chit-ananda-vigraha is 100%.(four divisions of energy)

The material world only has existence (sat) and even that is temporary.

It does not have chit, ananda or the spiritual vigraha.

So, the material world is only 25% energy of Krishna at most.

Even that is a very generous figure.

Then why don't you accept Srila Prabhupadas teachings that we are ALL presently in Goloka but presently on 'think' we are not?

Shastra has a different conclusion than this fairytale from ISKCON.

patita-aśru-mukhyāḥ — of the one who fell down with tears in the eyes; SB 1.15.10

patitā — fallen down; SB 4.28.49

patita — fallen down; SB 5.1.36

patita — fallen; SB 8.10.40

patitā — fell down; SB 10.7.24

patita — fallen; SB 10.23.30

patitā — fallen; SB 10.65.27

patita — of those who are fallen; SB 10.69.18

patita — of those fallen; SB 10.82.48

patita-pāvana — the deliverer of fallen souls; CC Adi 5.54

patita-pāvana — deliverer of the fallen; CC Adi 10.120

patita — of those fallen; CC Madhya 1.81

patita-pāvana — the savior of the fallen souls; CC Madhya 1.188

patita-pāvana — deliverance of the fallen; CC Madhya 1.191

patita — fallen; CC Madhya 1.191

patita — fallen; CC Madhya 1.196

patita-pāvana — deliverer of the fallen; CC Madhya 1.199

patita-pāvana — savior of the fallen; CC Madhya 1.200

patita-pāvana — the deliverer of all fallen souls; CC Madhya 8.38

patita — of those fallen; CC Madhya 13.136

patita — fallen; CC Madhya 15.264

patita ha-ile — when one has fallen; CC Madhya 15.264

patita-pāvana — deliverer of the fallen souls; CC Madhya 20.62

patita — fallen; CC Madhya 20.99

patita pāmare — very fallen and sinful; CC Antya 16.20

This new fairytale that the fallen conditioned jivas are not fallen is just another ISKCON fairytale.

Yesterday, vigraha was saying there is no time in the spiritual world.

Today he now presumes to be the expert on time and and going to tell us all what we don't know.

If he thinks anyone takes him seriously he needs medication because he is suffering from delusions.

One day he doesn't have a clue and next day he is the expert on the subject.

this is simply hilarious.

Then why don't you accept Srila Prabhupadas teachings that we are ALL presently in Goloka but presently on 'think' we are not?

If you can't prove that claim with an exact quote then you should probably stop making false statements attributed to Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada never said such nonsense.

The jiva is in the brahmajyoti and thinks he is fallen.

He is not in Goloka and thinking himself fallen.

The jiva is fallen from brahman not from Goloka.

Interesting post prabhu

 

Like a fog lifts and reveals the sun, one's true eternal nitya-siddha identity is also revealed when the covering of the mahat-tattva is dispelled, only then does one become aware of their full Krishna Conscious spiritual potential as their real self (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) serving Krishna.

Yes, that is a very fancy fairytale.

I guess setting around dreaming up our own version of Gaudiya siddhanta is becoming contagious.

Now, Krishna conciousness is becoming science fiction for story tellers.

I actually feel that the only way people in general will give Srila Prabhupada proper credit and appreciate his legacy is when we present his teachings in a REALISTIC manner. Nobody but the most fanatical zealots buys the bit about the guru who knows everything, has a perfect answer to every question, and whose teachings must be followed to the letter and without any questions to reach the elusive goal of true perfection. Especially when in practice his institution and his followers are anything but picture perfect.

 

If people appreciate the real and unquestionable contribution Prabhupada made to modern spirituality then they will read his books and progress further on their own. If we try to sell people fairy tales and sentimental guru fanticism, we will be rejected as just another guru-centric cult. The choice is clearly ours.

Mahaprabhu charged his direct disciples to take his bhakti cult and substantiate it with Vedic references.

Mahaprabhu wanted his movement to be presented as authentic Vedic dharma.

So, if even Mahaprabhu wanted all his teachings to be established with Vedic authority, then surely we cannot hold up Srila Prabhupada as an independent authority who doesn't have to answer to shastra, guru and sadhu.

That was not the intention of Srila Prabhupada either.

The "Prabhupada said" cult was put down by Srila Prabhupada himself in his time.

After his passing a new Gaudiya siddhanta has been fabricated by neophyte misfits who want to make Gaudiya Vaishnavsim a cult of renegade gurus with absolute independence from shastra, guru and sadhu.

Vigraha created his dreamervadi concoction on the basis that there is no time in the spiritual world.

Shastra says there is time in the spiritual world.

So, the dreamervadi nonsense was concocted off of a false pretense.

Therefore it is bogus because it was fabricated off of a false premise and conclusions that contradict Lord Krishna and the shastra.

so, vigraha is going to tell us all the correct understanding of what time is?

On another thread he was spouting off that there is no time in the spiritual world.

I exposed his bogus understanding and presented shastric proof that there is time in the spiritual world of Vaikuntha.

So, now he starts a topic and proposed to tell us all what the proper understanding of time is?

Why does he always come off as the teacher and master when he has shown time and again that he doen't have a good grasp on Gaudiya siddhanta?

Vigraha wrote:

Originally Posted by Vigraha

It is only because of the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or the nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated, and one has returned to their full spiritual potential and awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna. Once one has returned one realizes themself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body, ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it in Goloka.

 

I replied:

Another fairytale myth that there is no time in the spiritual world.

There is time in the spiritual world.

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.11.38

kālo 'yaḿ dvi-parārdhākhyo

nimeṣa upacaryate

avyākṛtasyānantasya

hy anāder jagad-ātmanaḥ

SYNONYMS

kālaḥ — eternal time; ayam — this (as measured by Brahmā's duration of life); dvi-parārdha-ākhyaḥ — measured by the two halves of Brahmā's life; nimeṣaḥ — less than a second; upacaryate — is so measured; avyākṛtasya — of one who is unchanged; anantasya — of the unlimited; hi — certainly; anādeḥ — of the beginningless; jagat-ātmanaḥ — of the soul of the universe.

TRANSLATION

The duration of the two parts of Brahmā's life, as above mentioned, is calculated to be equal to one nimeṣa [less than a second] for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is unchanging and unlimited and is the cause of all causes of the universe.

Purport (excerpt):

In the spiritual world there is undoubtedly time, but it has no control over activities. Time is unlimited, and the spiritual world is also unlimited, since everything there exists on the absolute plane. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

So, your fairytale can't hold up on the fairytale that there is no time in the spiritual world because that fairytale is also another ISKCON myth.

Well boys, since there are 169 known moons orbiting the the eight official planets and three dwarf planets, which Moon are we talking about here?

Is it the Earth's Moon or or some other Moon?

Is Earth the center of the universe?

Is the Bhagavatam necessarily talking about the Moon of Earth?

Before we can come to any conclusion we have to know which Moon the Bhagavatam is referring to.

All the higher planets have Moons too.

Earth is not the center of the universe the last time I checked.

Can we all say "duh"?

The Bhagavatam was first taught to the Four Kumaras by Lord Sankarsan at the dawn of the universe.

Was Lord Sankarshan necessarily talking about the Earth moon when he first spoke Srimad Bhagavatam?

Our simple mind wants to reduce everything down to some remedial concept that fits into our crippled mind.

Unfortunately, the absolute cannot be reduced down to such blunted and stunted perception that our sickly minds can wrap their arms around it and hold the infinite within our fist.

the only real question that matters is "have I become a better person?"

Save yourself.

Let God save the world.(if he wants too)

"Bhaktivinoda said" held up in the 19th, 20th and into the 21st century.

Only in the minds of the Saraswata Gaudiyas.

Even though many don't like to believe it, there actually is Gaudiya Vaishnavism outside of ISKCON and the Gaudiya Matha.

In the 21st century ISKCON is going to lose it's monopoly on Gaudiya Vaishnavism around the world and within the coming decades it could end up as one of the smaller sects of Gaudiya Vaishnavas around the world.

As such, the "Prabhupada said" approach to Gaudiya siddhanta is only relevant in ISKCON which is rapidly losing it's status as the premier Gaudiya Vaishnava society in the western world.

I personally accept what "Prabhupada said".

But, "Prabhupada said" has isolated ISKCON from the greater Gaudiya community which is growing much faster than a lot of ISKCON people would like to admit.

The important things Srila Prabhupada said can be supported in shastra.

If it can't be supported in shastra then I personally don't see the need to try and make a big issue out of it.

Some of the things Srila Prabhupada said were preaching tactics and devices that he thought we helpful in the early stages of bringing KC to the western world.

Maybe, after some 40 years laters and the firm rooting of Gaudiya Vaishnavism all over the world and the splintering of ISKCON, the growth of Gaudiya Matha offshoots internationally etc. etc., it is time to send some of these "Prabhupada said" letters and statements to the archives of memory.

Some of these devotees who are still wallowing in these anti-Godbrother letters of Srila Prabhupada from the 60's are like cavemen that can't come out of the stone-age of Krishna consciousness.

It is almost laughable.

If it wasn't so offensive to so many wonderful Vaishnavas it would be hilarious.

Unfortunately, it is just repulsive at this point in history.

My intention with this topic was not to minimize Srila Prabhupada or his words.

What I do feel though is that instead of always trying to support something with saying "Prabhupada said" I think we should be trying to find the shastric basis for that "Prabhupada said" and present it in it original source.

As Gaudiya Vaishnavism spreads throughout the world, ISKCON will eventually just be one of several Gaudiya Vaishnava societies and the "Prabhupada said" way of preaching will not be as relevant as presenting something in it's shastric basis.