Guruvani

Because you say so on their behalf? I'm not playing semantics. No so easy. I have read the Caitanya-siksamrta and there is no evidence for what you say.

No, because Lord Krishna and Srila Prabhupada have confirmed that no one falls from the Vaikuntha planets.

If you read the books you would know that.

If Srila Prabhupada says that no one falls from Vaikuntha, then in the purport you are trying to abuse he could only have been talking about shanta-rasa in the brahmajyoti because he has made it clear in the books that no one falls from Vaikuntha planets.

You're running with the word 'peacefully'. That doesn't necessarily imply neutrality. Nor does it mean impersonal. One has to be conflictual to be personal?

Read the writings of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

Arguing about the meaning of "peaceful" is just a smokescreen to avoid the siddhanta according to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati.

All the sparks in the brahmajyoti are living peacefully with Krishna.

That is because they are in shanta-rasa without any personal service to the Lord.

You are just trying to avoid the facts by arguing about the meanings of a word.

One thing you can't argue with is the conclusions of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

Well, you can try.

All the sleepervadis are arguing with Gaudiya siddhanta by abusing some statements of Srila Prabhupada that do not mean what they say they mean.

You can't change Gaudiya siddhanta by arguing about the meanings of a word.

All you can do is pretend that your argument hasn't been defeated by the authorities.

It has been defeated.

You lose.

Somewhat arbitrary wouldn't you say?

How do you account for

‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam

4.28.54, purport)

Prabhupada is simply wrong?

Living peacefully means impersonal shanta-rasa. (shanta means peace)

That is explained by Srila Prabhupada's spiritual master:

In the second chapter of his book "Brahmana and Vaisnava" entitled Harijana-khanda , Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura states:

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD [emphasis mine], he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him

Before the ISKCON fairytale, this siddhanta as explained by Srila Saraswati Thakur was the standard shastric understanding of the Gaudiyas.

In California and Hawaii there are lots of fringey Hare Krishnas who smoke marijuana.

None of them are big into Lord Siva.

You don't have to be into Lord Siva to be a ganja smoker.

In the western world the smoking of Ganja has little to nothing to do with pseudo worship of Lord Siva.

In the western world there are probably more Hare Krishnas smoking ganja than so-called followers of Siva.

There are even some Hare Krishna types on this forum who smoke weed but have no sentiments at all towards Siva worship.

Smoking ganja is very widespread in the western world and no blame can be put on Lord Siva.

I don't know where the idea that Lord Siva smokes pot comes from, but I don't think there is any shastric reference that Lord Siva smokes weed.

Siva is God.

He doesn't smoke weed to get high.

Siva is Yogisvara.

He doesn't need to be intoxicated on cannabis.

He is intoxicated on love of Krishna.

Divine nectar is much more relishable for such divine beings as Lord Siva.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.28, purport,

The living being can never possess attributes like Śiva, Viṣṇu or Lord Kṛṣṇa. A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Śiva, Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa. He can become a Brahmā in due course. The godly living beings who are all residents of the planets in the spiritual sky are eternal associates of God in different spiritual planets called Hari-dhāma and Maheśa-dhāma. The abode of Lord Kṛṣṇa above all spiritual planets is called Kṛṣṇaloka or Goloka Vṛndāvana, and the perfected living being, by developing seventy-eight percent of the above attributes in fullness, can enter the planet of Kṛṣṇaloka after leaving the present material body.

In this purport, Lord Siva is referred to as a God along with Vishnu and Krishna.

Gaudiyas don't pay much attention to Lord Siva, but in fact Lord Siva is one of the forms of Godhead in the spiritual world.

Lord Siva is another form of Krishna in the Vaikuntha world - Mahesh-dhama.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.2.28-29 purport,

Vāsudeva is the original Personality of Godhead Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. As explained before, the original Personality of Godhead expands Himself by innumerable forms. Such expansion of forms is made possible by His various energies. His energies are also multifarious, and His internal energies are superior and external energies inferior in quality. They are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.4-6) as the parā and the aparā prakṛtis. So His expansions of various forms which take place via the internal energies are superior forms, whereas the expansions which take place via the external energies are inferior forms. The living entities are also His expansions. The living entities who are expanded by His internal potency are eternally liberated persons, whereas those who are expanded in terms of the material energies are eternally conditioned souls.

Expanded in terms of the material energies.

Sounds like some living entities are expanded via the material energy and some are expanded via the internal energy.

So, there must be some living entities that are not expanded within the internal energy.

I guess that means that many living entities are not expanded within the internal energy but are within the realm of the material energy.

As such, the conditioned living entities do not have a spiritual body in Goloka that they have forgotten about.

Why?

Because they were expanded into the material energy.

Bhakti Sudhir Goswami Maharaja once told us that some of the "pada-squad" titles were actually higher than the title Prabhupada.

There was Bhaktipada - at whos feet bhakti sits?

There is Gurupada - at whos feet all the gurus sit?

How about "Krishnapada" - at whos feet Krishna sits?

I don't remember all the names of the Pada-squad, but I was told that most of them were bogus titles that were offensive to Srila Prabhupada and the predecessor acharyas.

These guys were a bunch of knucklehead neophytes taking on titles superior to the title Prabhupada.

 

"Kirtanananda was awarded the position of a Sannyasi because he wanted it although I could understand it that he wanted to be a spiritual master himself. Lord Caitanya wanted every one should be a spiritual master provided he follows the order of Lord Caitanya. The Lord's mission was to defeat the Mayavada philosophy and establish in the philosophy of Krishna consciousness because Krishna is the Supreme Lord the Personality of Godhead."

full letter

(Navadvip, November 2, 1967)

 

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Can you find the Sleeper-Vadi in the crowd?...You can't because it's Srila Govinda Maharaja with his group in Venezuela. Happily engaging in Krsna Conciousness without being tormented by the Sleeper-Vadi Myth and it's perpetrators. We should be so lucky!

 

Nope, I found a sleepervadi in the picture.

See the tree in the background?

The tree is actually in Vrindavan but he is just having a bad dream.

I haven't seen a single quote from Srila Prabhupada that supports the sleepervadi philosophy.

just show us one statement where Srila Prabhupada said a pure devotee falls from Vaikuntha.

These guys act like they have a whole long list of quotes to support their stupid fall theory when in fact they really don't have a single quote that definitively proves their theory.

They present a long list of quotes as if these quotes prove their theory.

It's just a hoax.

They really don't have a single quote to prove their theory.

All they have is a scam and scheme to make it look like they do.

They try to prove that in fact the jiva did not fall from Vaikuntha that the jiva is simply in Goloka dreaming and sleeping.

Such an asinine concept cannot be supported by shastra.

They admit that Srila Prabhupada says jivas are not falling from Goloka.

Then they try to use that to say that they soul is actually in Goloka just having a bad dream.

Their whole position is simply moving in circles around some theory that the jiva does not fall.

Their whole position is based on the claim that all the illusioned jivas did not fall from Goloka but are in Goloka sleeping and dreaming.

This theory is so bogus that it is simply laughable.

They are not defending Srila Prabhupada or the Gaudiya siddhanta.

They are defending their pride and many years of insulting assaulting so many advanced Gaudiya Vaishnavas by calling them Mayavada because they don't preach sleepervadi nonsense.

Srila Prabhupada refers to fallens souls hundreds of times in his books but the sleepervadis keep trying to say that there is no falldown of the jiva that he is still in Goloka just having a bad dream.

They are in the material world having a bad dream.

They just can't seem to understand that.

The soul doesn't fall in the sense that the soul is still spirit soul even though he is in illusion.

The jiva doesn't fall from his position of being spirit soul.

He simply identifies with the body and the material energy and in that way appears to have fallen from his position as a spirit soul.

"Sorority" has a better sonority, eh?

 

What else could you call a clique of wannabe gopis other than a sorority?

Despite some opinions to the contrary, most all the brahmacaries I knew in ISKCON (and I knew a bunch) were very much in pursuance of madhurya-rasa long before Narayana Maharaja created a frenzy with his manjari-bhava promotions.

Since day one when I joined ISKCON it was all about gopi-bhava, even though it was somewhat subdued and low-key.:crying2::crying2::crying2:

The question still remains? why does one think one will be happy without Krishna...

 

A being in Vaikunta-> fully knowledgable->why does he then ever think he will be happy withiut Lord?

 

This question bugs me always as a matter of fact...

 

Jaya jaya Govinda

that fact is that there is full knowledge for the liberated souls of Vaikuntha and they know better than to think they can compete with Krishna or be happy without him.

the fall from Vaikuntha is about falling from the brahmajyoti or impersonal shanta-rasa.

the personal devotees of the Lord do not and cannot falldown due to their full knowledge.

the fall from service to Krishna is a fairytale that cannot be supported with shastra.

this fall from Goloka theory is heresy of the Vaishnava siddhanta.

It is a modern invention by a people who have misunderstood and abused the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

The fall-from-goloka theory is a despicable insult to Lord Krishna and his pure devotees.

Guruvani, Beggar is teasing you a bit

soroity is for girls, fraternity is for boys hence his cross dressing refernece.

 

How about "pick the bone and bring it home?" That still gives me the chills.

Originally, I started to use the term fraternity but sorority just had a better ring to it.

Say what? "a sorority-like club of guys". Is that the Westen equivalent of men with stuble on their face wearing saris, and thinking that they are some kind of gopi? Or is it a just plain mundane group of college age cross dressers?

You were probably around in the middle of it.

Remember the mantra "Krishna Krishna Maha-baho, please send me another slow"?

"slow" is what the sorority boys of book distribution used to call innocent (clueless) people walking through the airport.

By the way, can you change me a $100 bill for some $20s?

Can you take $60 back and donate $40 to help the kids?

Diksha is generally accepted to be the savitra-samskara known in ISKCON as brahman initiation.

Hari-nama initiation is not really diksha.

Hari-nama can be very informal.

Getting the Holy Name from any Vaishnava is an informal initiation into Hari-nama.

It doesn't have to be all formal for Hari-nama to be effective.

The main thing is to get the mantra from the lips of a Vaishnava connected to the sampradaya and the Sankirtan movement.

Srila Prabhupada explains something usefull in this purport:

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8.128

Sometimes a Vaiṣṇava who is a bhajanānandī does not take the sāvitra-saḿskāra (sacred thread initiation), but this does not mean that this system should be used for preaching work.

Traditionally, this brahman initiation was not really practiced in the Gaudiya sampradaya. It was mainly popularized by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

There were precedents to this practice in some families and parivars in Bengal as Srila Prabhupada mentions in CC.

But, it was never offered to westerners before the Saraswata parivar began the practice.

Dude, I thought I said, "It definitely happens", If you read my post closely,Dude! Are you saying that I'm "clueless" about Gaudiya Siddhanta Dude, Well, Dude, I was thinking about it the whole time that I was out trick or treating, Dude.

I would never say you are "clueless" my friend.

Maybe clue challenged but not clueLESS.

a sleepervadi has a body in Golok so far away

but he went to sleep to dream and weep in maya here to stay

I think shastra is quite explicit that the Hari-nama is not dependent upon initiation.

However, I get tired of digging through the books and the Vedabase everytime some issue comes up and people are demonstrating that they are clueless about the Gaudiya siddhanta.

It appears to me that there is maybe only ONE sleepervadi active on this forum, though he uses several different user names to make it look like others are agreeing with him.

There are other sleepervadis on the web like Kailasa Chandra das and probably some others.

There are a couple more posting on the dandavats website.

They seem to gravitate to that website more because it is more "ISKCON" centric and there are more sleepervadis there to pat each other on the back.

I have just about exhausted my interest to debate and defeat the sleepervadis.

I am satisfied that most of the more informed devotees on this forum do not support or to the sleepervadi superstition.

The kind of fanaticism about this issue is perfectly exemplified by Kailasa Candra das on his so-called "Vaishnava Foundation" website where he ends an article on how the jiva falls from Vaikuntha by saying:

 

We cannot possibly get free from this dreadful land

 

 

as long as we allow this impersonalism to stand.

 

http://therealexplanation.org/article/how_stand.html

People like him are on a campaign to declare that the Gaudiya Matha, Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Narayana Maharaja, Puri Maharaja etc. etc. are preaching mayavada philosophy because they do not support the fall-from-vaikuntha fairtytale.

It is this kind of extremism and fanaticism that I have personally taken issue with and tried in my own small way to challenge and defeat.

I am satisified that any rational and reasonable person who doesn't have an ISKCON political agenda will see who is right and who is wrong based upon all the shastric evidence that has come out on this issue.

I think the sleepervadis have been defeated strongly and they are only hanging on to their false pride, false egos and ISKCON political agenda out of arrogance and conceit.

So, seeing that they have been defeated publicly on the forum and on other websites I am just about ready to declare victory and let the enemy take a body count of all the sleepervadis who have been defeated in this battle.

 

Today is the day!!!!

 

 

Wasn't there an Earthquake in San Jose in the last 24 hours?

Is Silicon Valley shaking in it's boots at the arrival of the sadhu?

The highest conception is that the guru IS Srimati Radharani!

I think that Srila Sridhar Maharaja has explained that functionally the guru is Radha or a manifestation of Lord Nityananda.

These are functional conceptions not literal.

The guru performs the function of Radha or Lord Nityananda.

Each and every guru is not Radha or Nitai but the guru performs as Radha or Nitai functionally in the role of guru.

The guru can be a jiva.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 7.14 purport,

The jīva-tattva servitor, the spiritual master, is actually the servitor God.

So, since Radha and Nitai are not jivas, the jiva-tattva guru is simply performing functionally as Radha or Nitai.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 6.79

 

ananta brahmāṇḍe rudra — sadāśivera aḿśa

guṇāvatāra teńho, sarva-deva-avataḿsa

 

SYNONYMS

ananta — unlimited; brahmāṇḍe — in the universes; rudra — Lord Śiva; sadāśivera aḿśa — part and parcel of Sadāśiva; guṇa-avatāra — an incarnation of a quality; teńho — he also; sarva-deva-avataḿsa — the ornament of all the demigods.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Rudra, who is an expansion of Sadāśiva and who appears in unlimited universes, is also a guṇāvatāra [qualitative incarnation] and is the ornament of all the demigods in the endless universes.

 

 

PURPORT

There are eleven expansions of Rudra, or Lord Śiva. They are as follows: Ajaikapāt, Ahibradhna, Virūpākṣa, Raivata, Hara, Bahurūpa, Devaśreṣṭha Tryambaka, Sāvitra, Jayanta, Pināki and Aparājita. Besides these expansions there are eight forms of Rudra called earth, water, fire, air, sky, the sun, the moon and soma-yājī. Generally all these Rudras have five faces, three eyes and ten arms. Sometimes it is found that Rudra is compared to Brahmā and considered a living entity. But when Rudra is explained to be a partial expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is compared to Śeṣa. Lord Śiva is therefore simultaneously an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu and, in his capacity for annihilating the creation, one of the living entities. As an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu he is called Hara, and he is transcendental to the material qualities, but when he is in touch with tamo-guṇa he appears contaminated by the material modes of nature. This is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the Brahma-saḿhitā. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Tenth Canto, it is stated that Lord Rudra is always associated with the material nature when she is in the neutral, unmanifested stage, but when the modes of material nature are agitated he associates with material nature from a distance. In the Brahma-saḿhitā the relationship between Viṣṇu and Lord Śiva is compared to that between milk and yogurt. Milk is converted into yogurt by certain additives, but although milk and yogurt have the same ingredients, they have different functions. Similarly, Lord Śiva is an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu, yet because of his taking part in the annihilation of the cosmic manifestation, he is considered to be changed, like milk converted into yogurt. In the Purāṇas it is found that Śiva appears sometimes from the heads of Brahmā and sometimes from the head of Viṣṇu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Sańkarṣaṇa and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vāyu Purāṇa there is a description of Sadāśiva in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. That Sadāśiva is a direct expansion of Lord Kṛṣṇa's form for pastimes. It is said that Sadāśiva (Lord Śambhu) is an expansion from the Sadāśiva in the Vaikuṇṭha planets (Lord Viṣṇu) and that his consort, Mahāmāyā, is an expansion of Ramā-devī, or Lakṣmī. Mahāmāyā is the origin or birthplace of material nature.

 

I don't believe that anyone can give anyone love of anyone.

Love is something that wells up from within.

It is not something that comes to us from outside our hearts.

Nobody can give us love of our spiritual master either.

We love people because they have qualities we appreciate and admire.

The guru gives us the ways and means of devotional service.

If we follow that then love of Krishna MIGHT awaken in our heart.

As Srila Sridhar Maharaja would say "only Krishna can give himself".

Nobody can give Krishna unless Krishna is willing.

I think the Gaudiya siddhanta is that chanting the Holy Name of Krishna is what awakens love of Krishna.

Nobody can give us love.

Love is something that comes natural when we have an irresistable attraction to someone.

Love means sacrifice.

Nobody can give us sacrifice.

We have to practice sacrifice in love and then that love will grow.

The guru gives us the methods of sacrifice that we can perform to awaken love of Krishna in the heart.

I don't believe in the concept that the guru touches the disciple and injects him with energy or divine love.

Love is something we feel inside our heart.

I don't believe that it can be given to us.

We have to develop it through devotion and dedication.

The guru can give us instructions.

He can't give us love.

As Srila Prabhupada has written, love of Krishna is an epithet of hladini shakti or the ecstatic potency.

I am quite sure that the Holy Name is what bestows the hladini shakti as she is Krishna's potency to give.

Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 22.107)

nitya-siddha-kṛṣṇa-prema 'sādhya' kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

Dormant devotional service to Kṛṣṇa is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja.

prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate

prema-bhakti jaha hoite. How about prema bhakti is emanating from Sri Guru and avidya vinasa jate, that prema bhakti destroys the ingnorance within the heart?

Maybe.

But, the orginal translation you posted says:

By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed within the heart, bestowing prema-bhakti and destroying ignorance.

To me it is saying that the guru reveals divine knowledge that bestows prema-bhakti and destroys ignorance.

If we follow Mahaprabhu's teaching that the prema is already in the heart, I don't see how the verse can mean anything else.

If Mahaprabhu says that prema is already in the heart then we cannot then say that it is bestowed by the guru.

The guru bestows knowledge and the bhakti-lata-bija.

This seed of devotion sprouts into service and through service and sacrifice the prema awakens.

I cannot challenge Mahaprabhu's version that the prema is already in the heart.

Any verses or statements by the acharyas that seem to say otherwise are simply being misunderstood as far as I can see.

The guru gives the seed of devotion.

He doesn't give prema because the prema is already there according to Mahaprabhu.

But, without devotional service this prema cannot awaken.

To me this is all very simple.

The guru doesn't give prema.

Mahaprabhu says it is already there in the heart.

The guru gives the seed, the impetus to serve Krishna which will awaken that innate prema of the heart.