Guruvani

 

"On the whole you may know that he (Bon Maharaja) is not a liberated person, and therefore he cannot initiate any person to Krishna Consciousness. It requires special benediction from higher authorities." (Srila Prabhupada Letter to Janardana, 26/4/68)

But the western devotees with ten years in the movement were liberated siddhas and so they can be regular gurus.?

The theory that one can become illusioned and fall introduces imperfection in the [infallible] spiritual world—this is Mayavada philosophy. It derides the concept of the Lord's perfect abode. It is stated explicitly that the spiritual world is a manifestation of the Lord's internal pleasure potency, svarupa-sakti, the Lord's most powerful potency.

It is our contention that the actual sastric truth regarding the jiva's original positon which is thoroughly supported by all our acaryas, has eluded many devotees due to their offenses to highly situated Vaisnavas.

In fact to think that any associate of the Lord in the spiritual world can fall from His association shows a lack of understanding of the basic intrinsic nature of the Lord's svarupa-sakti and it's wonderful all absorbing ecstatic attribute, Krsna-prema.

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Actually, the fall theory is worse than Mayavada for it suggests that not only brahman but Parabrahman may be covered by maya. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

BB Vishnu Maharaja:

quote:

Statements taken as indicating that the origin of all living entities in this material world is by falling from the Lord's lila are obtained thru misinterpretation of secondary indirect statements and not primary direct statements. According to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, one must consider direct first hand evidence rather than subsidiary indirect statements interpreted according to one's necessity. To introduce ambiguous statements and interpret them distorts the clear meaning of the primary evidence further.

The source of the dispute over the siddhanta regarding the origin of the jiva stems from the fact that vast amounts of devotees are not well read in the Goswami's literatures, have not understood their conclusions properly and thus do not properly know the siddhanta.

Srila Prabhupada October 27, 1968

"If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge. And if they want to hear free, they may come to our temple. Don't become cheap. My Guru Maharaja used to say: "If somebody becomes cheap, then nobody hears him.":deal:

I just raised my rates to $50,000.00 per lecture.

Anyone interested can send me a PM via this website.

The living being carries the option with them always to serve the Supreme Enjoyer or desire to be the central enjoyer themselves.

 

 

Then that would be a defect.

The ability to choose the wrong thing would be a defective feature of the liberated souls.

As long as a soul has the potential to fall down then he is defective.

Perfection is when the possibility of falling down is overcome.

Krishna says his pure devotees are infallible.

If they had the possibility of falling down then they would be fallible.

Krishna removes that fallibility from his pure devotees and the possibility of making the wrong decision does not exist in the heart of the nitya-siddhas.

When the material coverings are removed and the soul is established in the internal svarupa-shakti there is NO chance that they could do something that stupid and choose to leave Krishna to become a worm in stool in the material world.

Hence.......... infallible.

What if one is appointed rtvik, and then many years after his guru enters nitya lila the rtvik's disciples begin to see him as a "regular guru". Who is to say whether or not the appointed rtvik has entered a higher adhikara? Isn't it matter of faith? After all generally a rtvik would be far more junior in attainment than his guru otherwise his guru would have identified him as a "regular guru". If the rtvik is developing bhakti in a dynamic way, why give him a static label for all time? What about in the next life?

Good question.

But, the orders of the spiritual master cannot be neglected no matter how advanced one becomes.

It is not a matter of not being qualified to be "regular guru".

I am not saying Govinda Maharaja is not qualified.

I think that he is and was.

Still, the orders of the founder-acharya of SCSMath have to be maintained as it was his will and his orders.

Qualification is not the issue.

The orders are there.

They must be followed at all times and forever by the ritvik successor who was appointed as such by the determination of the acharya.

One never becomes TOO QUALIFIED to execute the orders of his spiritual master.

No matter the qualification, the orders of Srila Sridhar Maharaja must be followed as that was his best judgement for how the Math should continue after him.

There are so many ifs, ands or buts that we can use for an excuse.

But, the order of the acharya should not be questioned.

It should just be followed.

The pure devotees of Goloka do not consider that being refused the option to become a worm in stool in the material world to be a bad thing.

They are not thinking "Krishna will not allow me to become a worm in stool, this is such a terrible thing".

They are grateful that Krishna protects them from that eternal hell.

They don't have a problem with that.

I had no idea Govinda Maharaja rejected the ritvik appointment of his Guru.

 

It probably wasn't so much as a rejection by Govinda Maharaja but a rejection by all the little cronies hanging out at the Matha.

Still, I think Govinda Maharaja should have not been coerced by the small-timers into reliquishing his ritvik status.

All the little cronies said "no, Maharaja you are not ritvik, you are acharya".

So, in this way Govinda Maharaja was robbed of his ritvik appointment by the little position seekers.

Several of the top men responsible for the fiasco fell down.

 

 

So the question is, if there is free will in Goloka you must explain the nature of that free will. Free will to choose what?

Free will in Goloka is the freedom to decide which kind of flower to pick for Krishna, which kind of fruit to pick for Krishna, which kind of sweetmeat to prepare for Krishna etc. etc.

The freedom to choose maya is NOT an option from Goloka.

So, when I say there is no free will in Goloka I mean there is no option to choose maya.

When I say there is free will in Goloka it means that there is some choices to make in which way to please Krishna.

The freedom to choose maya is just not one of the freedoms available from Goloka.

It is not a freedom that anyone wants in Goloka.

Nitya-siddhas would not consider that as freedom.

They are free to travel all over the spiritual world.

They have that freedom.

The freedom to take up the service of maya is not a freedom that is included in the Goloka menu.

Krishna does not allow his devotees there to be tempted.

He protects his devotees perfectly and absolutely.

Sridhar Maharaja:

With this I transfer these beads and from now he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik. The ritvik system is already involved both here and also in the foreign land. The ritvik is the representative.

So, from this we can see that Srila Sridhar Maharaja actually initiated Govinda Maharaja as his ritvik representative and gave him japa-mala as to signify his initiating Govinda Maharaja to be his official ritvik representative.

To try to take this statement to prove there is no free will for the jiva is very wrong IMO.

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The jiva still has free will in Goloka, but the option to choose maya is not available.

Maya is not accessible from Goloka as maya is not allowed to enter there.

The option to leave Krishna and go to maya is just not available in Goloka.

So, as Srila Prabhupada advises:

"You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy."

So, obviously we must give up the maya option to enter Goloka and lose that option for eternity in divine slavery of Krishna.

Krishna advises "stop your so-called free will and surrender to me".

So, Krishna makes it clear that we must give up that so-called free will if we want eternal life in Goloka as his servant/slave.

Divine slavery ki-jaya!!

 

Srila Gurudeva wil be here in California in less than a week, now (God-willing). I'm excited, to be sure, but I'm also quivering in my boots.

When he arrives can you ask him to comment on these orders of Srila Sridhar Maharaja in his official declaration of spiritual succession that he delivered on

Gaura Purnima, 26th March, 1986 at SCSMath?

With this I transfer these beads and from now he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik. The ritvik system is already involved both here and also in the foreign land. The ritvik is the representative.

I have previously given to him the charge of the Math and now I am giving him the full responsibility of giving Harinam, diksha, sannyasa, etc., as an Acharya of this Math on behalf of myself.

In the Mahamandala, Sagar Maharaj and many others are also ritvik of Swami Maharaj and also myself. They may do so, but in this Math and in any Math under this Math, he will be the representative. If anyone cannot accept this, he may leave the Math rather than stay here and disturb the peace of the Math.

These were the final words of Srila Sridhar Maharaja on the matter of disciplic succession.

We would like to know how and why this ritvik appointment got rejected by Govinda Maharaja.

BB Vishnu Maharaja:

In the ISKCON GBC Position booklet (OOPs p. 194) it is stated that the residents of the spiritual world have the free will to leave, as a crazy man has the free will to jump off the roof. In this booklet they state that these residents are indeed crazy (bewildered) when they leave. This explanation is very insubstantial and misleading. In the material world we always have the choice between matter and spirit but in the spiritual world there is no matter so one will not and cannot choose matter.

Srila Prabhupada:

Krsna says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: "I am now talking to you the most confidential words." Sarva-guhyatamam. "You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy." (731213mw.la)

so, to get Krishna we must give up this false idea of free will and become the slaves of Krishna.

When you enter into that divine slavery there is no getting out of Krishna's slavery.

It is fixed for eternity.

Gee whiz!! I said "makes it easier to". That implies that it is still possible when one's Guru is present.

 

When the Guru is not present physically, the disciple does not even have the option to directly petition Gurudeva for clarification on points of confusion.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja says:

Our guru is whoever gives us impetus for the service of Krsna, whoever helps us to look towards the center.

If that person is a bygone acharya or devotee then who is to say that one cannot accept that person as guru?

The idea that we can only accept a living person as guru completely nullifies the value of the bygone acharyas and the instructions they left behind for all time to come.

The guru is not limited by time and space.

The guru is beyond such relative limitations.

There is no such concept in shastra as "living guru".

If there is, then I would like to see it.

Bhaktivinode says that the Vaishnava dies to live and living spreads the Holy Name around.

So, I guess Bhaktivinoda advocated that dead Vaishnavas can still spread the Holy Name around.

There is no such thing as a "dead guru".

The real guru is "sat guru" or eternal guru.

Guru is not some fleeting phantom that appears for a little while and fades away like a shooting star.

Sridhar Maharaja:

We are to appreciate that slavery is our fortune. But this is a hard nut to crack, to accept this.

Our free will is such a bad choice.

We need to give up this false idea of free will and accept that we are the slaves of Krishna eternally.

We can either be slaves of his maya or slaves of his love.

Free will?

Our only option is to choose rotting in hell or eternal freshness as a slave of Krishna.

Use your free will and make your choice.

I was just in town and I found a cell-phone on the street.

I called a number on the phone and found the owner.

Well, it wasn't a million dollars.

I probably would have kept the million dollars and retired.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja:

Slave of the Slave

We are not independent. Constitutionally we are slaves of the slave, and there we thrive. We are to appreciate that slavery is our fortune. But this is a hard nut to crack, to accept this. How can slavery be for our gain, for our fortune? Krsna is so great that His slavery is of a high, noble order. He is so good, so great. Without that sort of disposition it is impossible for us to approach Him, to have any intimate connection. He lives in such a high sphere that it is impossible to meet Him. Only by the acceptance of His intimate slavery can we hope to enter that domain. It is so high for us, so very high. We should really try to understand how slavery is the highest attainment. Just calculate how much higher is the position that Krsna holds.

Surrendered service is the highest type of service, and that is found only in Vrndavana. Divine slavery to the extreme. This type of service means to accept slavery as our highest position.

 

He is so good, that if we can be connected to Him in slavery we will receive infinite good. Whatever degree of slavery we are able to accept, then we may attain such height of goodness. It is quite reasonable. Otherwise we cannot have any entrance into that holiest land. We can gain admission only when we offer our service to the extreme point of slavery. And that slavery must be unconditional.

 

 

Slavery in that domain is far, far better than mastery in this land of exploitation, where the reaction can only be very, very bad. And the middle plane, the land of renunciation, is neither good nor bad; it is nothing—zero—a freezing point. It is very hard to conceive of this beneficial divine slavery, but nothing short of that will give us entrance to the holy domain.

 

 

thus, I contend that in Goloka free will of the jiva is a myth.

There, it is about eternal slavery to Krishna.

There ain't no coming back once you get to Goloka.

The maya option is not offered there.

Eternal slavery is the situation.

Jaiva Dharma ch. 15.

Vrajanatha: That is a wonderful conclusion! I wish to hear the evidence the Vedas give for it. The words of the Supreme Lord (Bhagavad-gita) are worthy evidence by themselves. However, when they are supported by the words of the Upanisads, they are more easily accepted by the people in general.

Babaji: These truths are revealed in many passages of the Vedas. I will recite one or two of them. Please listen carefully. In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (2.2.20 and 4.3.9) it is said:

"As tiny sparks fly from a fire, so all individual souls have come from the Supreme."

"A person has two places: the spiritual world and the place where the spiritual world meets another world. There is also a third place, a place of dreams. Standing between them, the soul sees on one side the spiritual world and on the other side the place of dreaming."

This passage describes the individual soul's (jiva-shakti), which can reside in either the spiritual or material worlds (tatastha). In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.18) it is also said:

"As a large fish in a river may go to one shore or the other, so a person may go to one world or another. He may go to a world where he is awake, or may go to a world made of dreams."

Vrajanatha: How does the Vedanta philosophy define the word "tatastha?"

Babaji: The place where a river's waters meet with the land of the shore is called the 'tata'. The 'tata' is then the place where water meets the land. What is the nature of this 'tata'? It is like the thinnest of threads that runs along the boundary of land and water. A 'tata' is like the finest of lines, so small that the gross material eyes cannot even see it. In this example the spiritual world is like the water and the material world is like the land. The thin line that separates them is the 'tata'. That boundary place is the abode of the individual spirit souls. The individual spirit souls are like atomic particles of sunlight. The souls can see both the spiritual world and the material world created by Maya. The Lord's spiritual potency, cit-shakti, is limitless, and the Lord's material potency, maya-shakti, is gigantic. Standing between them, the individual spirit soul is very tiny. The individual spirit souls are manifested from the tatastha-shakti of Lord Krishna. Therefore the souls are naturally situated on the boundary (tatastha) of matter and spirit).

Vrajanatha: What is this 'tatastha' nature of the individual souls?

Babaji: Standing between them, the soul can see these two worlds. The 'tatastha' nature of the souls refers to the fact that they must be under the control of one of these two potencies. The actual place of the 'tata' (shore) may change. What was once dry land may be covered with water, and what was once covered by water may again become dry land. If he turns his gaze upon Lord Krishna, the soul comes under the shelter of Lord Krishna's spiritual potency. But if he turns away from Krishna and turns his gaze to the material potency, maya, then the soul is caught in maya's trap. That is what is meant by 'the soul's tatastha nature'.

 

The third-class person in Krsna consciousness may fall down, but when one is in the second class he does not fall down, and for the first-class person in Krsna consciousness there is no chance of falling down. (Bg. 9.3, purport)

The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)

Eternally liberated living entities never come into contact with material nature . . . they are counted among the associates of Krsna. (Teachings of Lord Caitanya, p. 108)

. . .the nitya-siddhas are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness . . . you should not consider that My associates are ever separated from Me . . . they are almost as powerful as I am . . . they are very, very dear to Me, as I am very, very dear to them. (Nectar of Devotion, p. 205)

 

 

What about the descent from Goloka into the body of a demon by Sudama, who became Sankachuda and married Tulsi on Earth?

 

He offended Srimati Radharani, and was cursed to descend to earth.

 

 

Where did you find that story and what is the reference?

I don't remember reading that in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

I must have missed that part.

anyway, you won't find it in Gaudiya books that I know of.

That tale is told by Shaivas who claim the story comes from the Siva Purana.

When we start using Shaiva texts translated by bogus Shaivas to debate Gaudiya siddhanta we have strayed way off track.

Personally, I think such accusations against a parshada of Krishna is outragious.

The Siva Purana was compiled by Romaharshana - the guy that Lord Balarama killed with a straw of grass for being a puffed-up fool.

accepting as guru a personality who is no longer present on the planet makes it much easier for the aspirant to pick and choose what they like from the departed acharya's teachings.

Well, there is plenty of picking and choosing going on in the lives of devotees with "living gurus" so that argument is bogus and proves nothing.

Prabhupada - "So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve

Krsna? Why not become Krsna?” I immediately fall down".

 

Vipina - Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?

 

Prabhupada - He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this

 

Vipina - Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?

 

Prabhupada: - That means you lose your independence.

 

We all originate from Goloka

Not a single soul has fallen from Vaikuntha since time eternal.

Jaya and Vijaya did not fall down or reject the Lord.

They didn't want to leave the Lord's service.

So, I don't call that a falldown.

They caught some jnanis trying to enter Vaikuntha and they did their job and stopped them.

They committed no offense.

But, Lord Narayana wanted the incident to occur for his own pleasure and pastimes.

Jaya and Vijaya did not falldown.

They came to the material world to serve the Lord according to his pleasure and his mission.