Guruvani

I see. Just asking, do you have any scriptural reference for this?

There is the statement I saw in Bhagavatam about the demigods transforming their subtle bodies into spiritual bodies and entering the spiritual world at the time of pralaya.

But, right now, after a day at work I don't have the energy to go digging through the Vedabase to find it.

I would consider these goddesses as administrative demigods as they are all-pervasive in the material energy.

Parvati is Maya devi herself.

She does not die.

She simply transforms herself into her original form as the consort of Sadasiva and returns back to the Vaikuntha world.

That is my understanding but I am too tired to research the issue at this time of day.

By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed within the heart, bestowing prema-bhakti and destroying ignorance.

By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed in the heart and this divine knowledge bestows prema-bhakti?

That's true, the original Sadashiva lives above the Viraja river (spiritual world) in Mahesh Dham. Isn't it also that Parvati devi cannot die but Durga and Kali (her expansions) must die because they reside below the Viraja river in Rudra dhama?

I would guess that like the administrative demigods and some of the great rishis that these goddesses transform their material forms into spiritual forms and enter the spiritual world at the time of pralaya.

It could be called death, but I think it is different for them.

It is a transformation more than death.

Sri Guru-vandana (3) Srila Narottama das Thakur

 

cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei

divya-jnan hrde prokasito

prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate,

vede gay jahara carito

 

 

He who has given me the gift of transcendental vision is my lord, birth after birth. By his mercy divine knowledge is revealed within the heart, bestowing prema-bhakti and destroying ignorance. The Vedic scriptures sing of his character.

The person who bestows the gift of divine vision and implants transcendental knowledge within the heart remains my prabhu life after life. All the Vedas sing of his glories because through him prema-bhakti manifests to destroy all ignorance.

Is prema-bhakti bestowed by the guru or does it manifest through his mercy?

Depends on which translation you are reading.

I guess we need a real scholar to sort it out.

That I am not.

I can't help but take a jab at the nice young fellow who used to like to correct my spelling.

In the title of this topic "oficial" should actually be spelled "official".

But, don't start dogging me about my spelling again.

I am not or never have been an academic or a scholar of anything!

What about the famous question one disciple asked Srila Prabhupada: "What pleases you most Srila Prabhupada".

Srila Prabhupada replied: "That you are learning to love Krishna".

Book distribution sort of got out of control.

It became a sorority-like club of guys who sometimes referred to non-book distributors as "small-timers".

This kind or sorority club turned me off even though I did my share of book distrubution.

Book distribution turned into a money-making scam and books were ending up in garbage cans at the airport and we were buying them back from the custodians at the airport.

Getting books into the hands of people "by hook or by crook" eventually showed to be more-or-less useless in actually bringing people to Krishna consciousness.

I did my share of scamming people into giving some donation and then pushing a book into their hands and quickly moving on.

I had more luck with personal, one-on-one talking with people and answering questions about Krishna and spiritual topics.

I don't know if anybody that I pushed a book on became a devotee.

Maybe so.

But, if so, I never got to see it.

Even Lord Vishnu relishes the sentiment of service to Krishna.

Lord Siva does as well, though Siva is another form of Krishna.

Lord Siva gets the added ecstacy of service to Krishna as does all the Vishnu avatars.

When Krishna comes into the the domain of Lord Shambhu, the material energy, he offers full respect and honor to Lord Shiva.

Sadasiva has his own realm in the Vaikuntha world where the pure devotees of Lord Siva attain upon perfection.

On the planet of Sadasiva he is worshiped as Supreme by his devotees.

The Rudra incarnations of Lord Siva are sometimes considered jiva tattva, but the original Sadasiva is in the same league as Vishnu-tattva.

Gurudeva is scheduled to arrive in San Jose *tommorrow*

That is where it all started as far as the international mission of Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

I was the head pujari and head cook at the original San Jose temple from the very early days.

Before I arrived there was no regular program, no regular deity worship and no regular cook to serve the devotees and the deities.

We started by worshipping Sri Govardhana sila.

I was the first official pujari in a western temple of Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

All the devotees were very pleased by my cooking and my deity service.

I can say that I really loved those days.

It was awesome, beautiful and ecstatic.

I would love to do it all over again and try to do it better next time.

I still have the utmost respect and love for Sripad Bhakti Sudhir Maharaja who was my mentor and good friend.

He was one of the most influential devotees on me in my days as a practicing devotee.

His humor and genius never ceased to impress me.

Brahma Samhita chapter 5 TEXT 45, purport by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur:

Sambhu is not a second Godhead other than Krsna. Those, who entertain such discriminating sentiment, commit a great offense against the Supreme Lord. The supremacy of Sambhu is subservient to that of Govinda; hence they are not really different from each other.

In response to the last post by Beggar I would just like to mention a couple of points.

According to these shastric verses and the teachings of Mahaprabhu, we find that "love of Krishna" is already in the heart of the jiva.

What is not already in the heart of the jiva is the seed of devotional service.

Without devotional service this dormant love of Krishna cannot be awakened and nourished.

What I read in these teachings is that love of Krishna or the potential for such is already there in the heart of the living entity..

What the living entity needs to make that dormant or potential love of Krishna to awaken is the seed of Bhakti.

We have to see the difference between this dormant love of Krishna and the actual seed of devotional service.

The love is already potentially there, but the seed of devotion is missing until it is received by guru or sadhu.

Without this seed of devotional service, the dormant capacity to love Krishna can never be awakened.

So, love of Krishna is already there in the heart.

But, the seed of bhakti has to be received before this dormant love of Krishna can be aroused.

Prema and bhakti are distinct and different concepts.

Without bhakti the prema can never be aroused in the heart of the jiva.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.153

 

upajiyā bāḍe latā 'brahmāṇḍa' bhedi' yāya

'virajā', 'brahma-loka' bhedi' 'para-vyoma' pāya

 

SYNONYMS

upajiyā — being cultivated; bāḍe — grows; latā — the creeper of devotional service; brahmāṇḍa — the whole universe; bhedi' — penetrating; yāya — goes; virajā — the river between the spiritual world and the material world; brahma-loka — the Brahman effulgence; bhedi' — penetrating; para-vyoma — the spiritual sky; pāya — attains.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"As one waters the bhakti-latā-bīja, the seed sprouts, and the creeper gradually grows to the point where it penetrates the walls of this universe and goes beyond the Virajā River, lying between the spiritual world and the material world. It attains brahma-loka, the Brahman effulgence, and penetrating through that stratum, it reaches the spiritual sky and the spiritual planet Goloka Vṛndāvana.

 

 

PURPORT

A creeper generally takes shelter of a big tree, but the bhakti-latā, being the creeper of spiritual energy, cannot take shelter of any material planet, for there is no tree on any material planet that the bhakti creeper can utilize for shelter. In other words, devotional service cannot be utilized for any material purpose. Devotional service is meant only for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sometimes men with a poor fund of knowledge maintain that bhakti can be applied to material things also. In other words, they say that devotional service can be rendered to one's country or to the demigods, but this is not a fact. Devotional service is especially meant for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and it is beyond this material range. There is a river, or causal ocean, between the spiritual and material natures, and this river is free from the influence of the three modes of material nature; therefore it is called Virajā. The prefix vi means vigata ("completely eradicated"), and rajas means "the influence of the material world." On this platform, a living entity is completely free from material entanglement. For the jñānīs who want to merge into the Brahman effulgence, there is Brahma-loka. The bhakti-latā, however, has no shelter in the material world, nor has it shelter in Brahma-loka, although Brahma-loka is beyond the material world. The bhakti-latā grows until it reaches the spiritual sky, where Goloka Vṛndāvana is situated.

 

Of course Srila Prabhupada uses "swarupa terminology"; He is a Gaudiya Vaisnava, a follower of Srila Rupa Goswami. But he doesn't use it the way you do and he never says:

Our siddha swarupa is currently in seed form only.

Doesn't that "seed" comes with the bhakta-lata-bija in the form of mantra?

Depending upon the seed that one gets from the guru one will develop a relationship with Krishna.

In the different sampradayas different seeds are received.

In the Ramanuja sect is the seed of aishvarya bhakti.

In the Gaudiya sampradaya one gets the seed of Krishna-bhakti.

Without the seed of bhakti-lata-bija devotional service can never really develop.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.152 purport,

The bhakti-latā-bīja is the origin of devotional service. Unless one satisfies the spiritual master, he gets the bīja, or root cause, of karma, jñāna and yoga without the benefit of devotional service. But one who is faithful to his spiritual master gets the bhakti-latā-bīja. This bhakti-latā-bīja is received when one is initiated by the bona fide spiritual master.

The “svarupa” of the jiva is perfectly explained by Lord Chaitanya in his teachings to Srila Rupa Goswami.

Despite some ideas that the original svarupa of the jiva was a spiritual body as an associate of Krishna in Goloka/Vaikuntha, Lord Chaitanya describes the “svarupa” of the jiva as being a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair.

Here is Lord Chaitanya’s definitive and unambiguous pronouncement on the “svarupa” of the living entity.

quote:

Chapter 19: Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu Instructs Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139

keśāgra-śateka-bhāga punaḥ śatāḿśa kari

tāra sama sūkṣma jīvera ’svarūpa’ vicāri

SYNONYMS

keśa-agra — from the tip of a hair; śata-eka — one hundred; bhāga — divisions; punaḥ — again; śata-aḿśa — one hundred divisions; kari — making; tāra sama — equal to that; sūkṣma — very fine; jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the actual form; vicāri — I consider.

TRANSLATION

“The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity.

end quote.

Lord Chaitanya instructed Srila Rupa Goswami that the original svarupa of the jiva and the original subtle nature of the jiva was as a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair.

The theory that we have a spiritual form in Goloka that we have lost remembrance of necessitates that maya penetrated the svarupa-shakti of Vaikuntha/Goloka and influenced the jiva to forget Krishna.

Maya cannot influence the liberated devotees of Krishna in the spiritual world.

Maya cannot enter there to do her work.

quote:

Chapter 9: Answers by Citing the Lord’s Version

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.10

pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoḥ

sattvaḿ ca miśraḿ na ca kāla-vikramaḥ

na yatra māyā kim utāpare harer

anuvratā yatra surāsurārcitāḥ

SYNONYMS

pravartate — prevail; yatra — wherein; rajaḥ tamaḥ — the modes of passion and ignorance; tayoḥ — of both of them; sattvam — the mode of goodness; ca — and; miśram — mixture; na — never; ca — and; kāla — time; vikramaḥ — influence; na — neither; yatra — therein; māyā — illusory, external energy; kim — what; uta — there is; apare — others; hareḥ — of the Personality of Godhead; anuvratāḥ — devotees; yatra — wherein; sura — by the demigods; asura — and the demons; arcitāḥ — worshiped.

TRANSLATION

In that personal abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail, nor is there any of their influence in goodness. There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy; it cannot enter that region. Without discrimination, both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees.

end quote.

So, considering that maya cannot enter the spiritual world and tempt the devotees, we have to conclude that the theory of the dormant spiritual body in the spiritual world cannot be factual.

A fall from Goloka necessitates that maya has penetrated the svarupa-shakti and put devotees into illusion.

According to the shastric siddhanta this is an impossibility.

Mahaprabhu has properly narrated the svarupa of the jiva as being a spirit spark 1/10,000 the size the tip of a hair.

Anything beyond this idea is speculation that cannot be verified by shastra.

No it is not virtually nonexistent. BR Sidhar Maharaja has taught the free will is the boundary between one self and another. Without that boundary there is only the mayavada conception.

Can you present the actual reference?

I would like to study it.

Scholars agree that the book of Moses is written by at least 5 distinct authors. It is interesting to note that the sacrifices of Melchisadek as recorded in these books is written in a style completely foreign to the rest of the 5 books of Moses. Also intereting is that Melchisadek's sacrifice was "vegetarian" i.e. wine/grapes and bread.

 

So I think the proper perspective on Bible study is that it can only be properly understood in CONTEXT of Vedic teachings. We should also "look" to allegory in the bible, for example, a "house" or a "tree" is often a reference to the human being.

 

And a child is often a reference to an "offspring" of a virtue or vice. Hence the offspring (child) of greed, should be killed just as greed needs to be killed.

 

Some believe that the bible was written in allegory (parables) to punish the prideful.

 

So let's not be as prideful as bible bangers .. maybe we can extract or take only the nectar and enlighten those with less understanding.

 

Peace,

Her Servant and yours.

What I do know is that most Bible thumpers call Krishna the Devil.

You judge a book by it's fruits.

The Bible has produced some of the most envious, blasphemous offenders of Krishna on the face of the Earth.

Christians aren't respectful or considerate of the Vaishnava culture and religion.

They are products of the Bible.

The Bible people are the most envious, hateful and offensive people on Earth.

I spent years preaching Hare Krishna on the streets of America.

I know what these Bible thumpers are all about.

I have no use for them.

Being kind and respectful is useless.

As soon as you mention Krishna they turn into demons.

As long as you bend over and take it from them they are nice.

As soon as you mention Krishna they become hostile.

Demons.

Just demons.

That is all I see.

Lord Brahma has referred to Lord Siva as the Paramatma.

S. B., Chapter Six Brahma Satisfies Lord Siva

 

TEXT 46 <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

 

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na vai satam tvac-caranarpitatmanam

bhutesu sarvesv abhipasyatam tava

bhutani catmany aprthag-didrksatam

prayena roso 'bhibhaved yatha pasum

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

SYNONYMS

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

na--not; vai--but; satam--of the devotees; tvat-carana-arpita-atmanam--of those who are completely surrendered at your lotus feet; bhutesu--among living entities; sarvesu--all varieties; abhipasyatam--perfectly seeing; tava--your; bhutani--living entities; ca--and; atmani--in the Supreme; aprthak--nondifferent; didrksatam--those who see like that; prayena--almost always; rosah--anger; abhibhavet--takes place; yatha--exactly like; pasum--the animals.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

TRANSLATION

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

My dear Lord, devotees who have fully dedicated their lives unto your lotus feet certainly observe your presence as Paramatma in each and every being, and as such they do not differentiate between one living being and another. Such persons treat all living entities equally. They never become overwhelmed by anger like animals, who can see nothing without differentiation.

 

 

 

Since you do not study either, this means that you of course are not an authority and will further remain silent at the Holy Name of Jesus as you admittedly profess rejection of study of any account of Him.

Unlike Srila Prabhupada I have studied the Bible even after becoming a "Hare Krishna".

I grew up with a Christian mother and went to church all through my childhood and VBS on summer vacation.

So, as far as being an authority on the Bible I am not.

But, I have studied quite considerably the Bible.

My studies of the Bible convinced me it was useless for actual spiritual advancement.

I posted a reference from Srimad Bhagavatam some time back where it does describe Lord Siva as being the Supersoul.

I will have to dig around again in the Vedabase to find it.

Lord Siva is all-pervasive and knows everyone's heart just like the Supersoul.

As far as that goes Radha and Laxmi are also all-pervasive and for that reason they are sometimes referred to as Vishnu tattva.

I don't know if all-powerful goes along with all-pervasive.

I don't think so.

That is the shaktiman that is all-powerful even though the shakti is all-pervasive.

And if my assertion that I'm Henry VIII is true then you shall be beheaded.

 

Where does anybody get the crazy notion that Srila Govinda Maharaja sees himself as anything but the eternal servant of Srila Sridhar Maharaja?

I have never seen any documented statement where Srila Govinda Maharaja has denied being a ritvik of Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

What I have seen is some followers of the Math on this forum deriding the ritvik conception and touting Govinda Maharaja as non-ritvik, full-fledged acharya.

I don't deny that he is acharya and guru.

What I see in the words of Srila Sridhar Mahraja is that he wanted all the followers of the Math to respect Srila Govinda Maharaja as an acharya acting in a ritvik capacity.

I have never been one to deride a ritvik as anything less than a guru or acharya.

That is what other people feel, but not me.

I don't think that one can be ritvik unless he is acting as an acharya by following the orders of his spiritual master.

Ritvik appointment is not a demeaning or minimizing of the disciple.

When an acharya establishes a Math and a mission it is my view that after him all the successors are really ritviks of the acharya.

That is the way the Ramanuja sampradaya works from what I have heard and I think it is quite a logical system.

I doubt that Srila Prabhupada ever read the Bible to really know the kind of bizarre things you can find in the Bible.

Srila Prabhupada, unlike Bhaktivinoda, was a devotee from birth and never experimented or searched outside the Gaudiya faith.

If Srila Prabhupada actually had read the Bible to see the kind of junk that is in that book, I am not so sure he would have called it "Veda".

Srila Prabhupada's familiarity with the history and contents of the Bible was practically nil as far as I know.

If it was really Veda I don't think he would have advised against reading that Bible.

Srila Prabhupada did not want his devotees reading the Bible.

I guess that pretty much shows what he really thought about the Bible Veda.

Personally, the mountain of foreskins made by the Jews after coming out of the wilderness was a story that almost made me vomit.

Prabhupada spoke straight. The only fairytale is in your head.

I think that he saw that most of us were too proud and puffed-up to accept that we are just a spark from the brahmajyoti that got snagged in the Maha-tattva and fell in love with Maya devi and wanted to date the shakti of Lord Siva.

So, because western, modern people have such huge egos and no humility he sort of told a little fairytale to get them by till they were spiritually advanced enough to read the books and find out the truth.

Actually, we are here imitating Lord Siva, not Krishna.

Krishna doesn't consort with Maya.

Lord Siva does that.

HH Devamrita Swami is the GBC. Seems he got the film archiv from HH Suhotra Swami and now they opened a movie theater.

I hope the popcorn is prasadam.

"If Prabhupada traught something that we don't agree with then he didn't really mean what he said. He really wanted to teach what we believe but couldn't because no one would understand."

Obviously, many western people like yourself wanted to hear the fairytale version, so Srila Prabhupada tried to encourage you by letting you believe that fairytale.

What is the difference between partial and complete mukti? I think that a liberated soul is not under maya influence while a conditioned soul is under such influence. Does it mean that the soul who attained sayujya-mukti is under some maya influence, e.g. under sattva-guna influence?

Sayujya-mukti does not have security in service to the Lotus feet of Krishna.

It is partial because the jiva has not attained a spiritual body in the spiritual world but simply remains as a spirit spark in the brahmajyoti.

From that position the jiva can potentially become attracted by the allure of the material energy.

The brahmajyoti can be covered by the Maha-tattva and as such the jiva is at risk of being caught in the illusory energy.

So, before falling down to the material energy the jiva was only partially liberated in sayujya-mukti and that is why he was eligible to fall down.

There is no falling down from the complete mukti of liberation in devotional service.