The Origins of the Satan Myth and impact to global politics

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Quote:

 

Did Srila Prabhupada ever mention the Talmud?

 

Did Srila Prabhupada ever say the Talmud is a genuine scripture?

 

Reply:

 

Sorry it has taken so long to get this quote to you.

 

I kept meaning to post it - then something else comes up each time - but at last - here is a short point from Prabhupada - wherein he says he has no opinion on the Talmud - certainly - he does not express a bad opinion - as you've suggested.

 

American man: I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalah. I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalah

 

Prabhupada: I do not know. What is that?

 

Yogesvara: He asked, “Do you have an opinion on the Hebrew scripture, the Kabbalah?”

 

Prabhupada: No, I have neither read it, I do not know it. I do not know. [Conversation, June 15, 1974]

 

There it is - he didn't reject it off-hand.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Sad NEWS:

 

“…Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stood fast behind his Wednesday demand that the Jewish state be wiped off the map …"They become upset when they hear any voice of truth-seeking. They think they are the absolute rulers of the world,”

 

http://news./s/cpress/20051028/ca_pr_on_wo/iran_israel

 

Quote:

 

They think they are the absolute rulers of the world

 

Reply:

 

Oh like these extremists aren't 'aspiring' to take such a position over the world - because of course - they have all them needed answers - just like Bush and Co. - right?!

 

So what sort of mode of ignorance is surging there in Iran?

 

Is the personality of kali - quarrel personified - manifesting a wide enough sphere of influence on earth yet?

 

The Lord says:

 

Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them. [bG 16.7]

 

Why do they have such abject hate in their hearts – why are their foolish leaders cultivating such hate in their people?

 

And that worker [leader] who is always engaged in work against the injunction of the scripture, who is materialistic, obstinate, cheating and expert in insulting others, who is lazy, always morose and procrastinating, is a worker in the mode of ignorance. [bG 18.28]

 

What good can they find out of such an insecure position – where do they think this will go?

 

Why are the other Muslim leaders in the middle east – such as those within the oil rich nations NOT saying something to these leaders – why are they not being censured - for calling for the destruction of Israel and America?

 

Who are the Iranians to speak of such things – are they so 'perfect' that someone could fail to desire to destroy them too?

 

Does Iran wish to lose another generation to hate and violence? How long before such violences becomes directed within - at each other?

 

How long before there is a factional war within Iran again?

 

How can there be so many dark-minded people in our world who have so much power and influence over the minds of others?

 

If this situation doesn’t further suggest that America has to exit the Middle East – then what would?

 

How long does the U.N. act like a eunuch in a harem? How long does America act like a pimp in a convent?

 

How long does it take Israel to sincerely act like they know they should and thus settle the Palestinian occupation properly?

 

All these various extremists better get a clue soon because God is going to see that [as always] they do not succeed – no matter their backgrounds or - the particular semantics of the hate messages they preach.

 

It does not matter to providence - if it’s a Christian extremist - a hindu extremist or - whatever kind of extremist – whether religious or political – they are always all cancelled-out - no matter those considerations.

 

God charges everyone within every major Scripture with a message which runs quite counter to the messages of extremists - such is the case within all of the religious traditions.

 

All these fools have to realize that no extremist group has ever had collective success in creating a lasting Empire - nor has any extremist succeeded in preserving any real personal influence within their societies – nope - it all comes apart in the end – each time – history has a long list of such examples...

 

If these individuals wish to have any lasting peace and prosperity or - influence - it’ll be as part of the Brotherhood of Humanity – not as hate mongers.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Stupid NEWS

 

Our activity will be wide-ranging and ceaseless until we succeed in putting an end to terrorism... [A. Sharon]

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.israel28oct28,1,6435480.story?track=rss

 

[link seems not to work after cpy-n-pst]

 

Wrong direction - the only right direction is proper resolution.

 

This back-and-forth with Israel and Palestine reminds me of something from when I was a kid.

 

I used to have a best friend whose dad was really nasty - at times he would torment and hit my buddy and - he couldn't stop him - so naturally - he would sometimes cry - then his dad would become inwardly ashamed and then – become even more ignorantly angry and then tell him to quit crying or - he would give him something to cry about.

 

How does that apply here?

 

The dad is Israel - the Palestinians are the little kid - whose 'crying' is akin to the noted reactions of the Palestinians - reactions to the torment of their dysfunctional relationship and - if the 'dad' ever thus expects their ‘crying’ to stop - the dysfunctional state of affairs and interactions - must end.

 

Or simply – after 60 years of point and counter-point - can they stop ‘crying’ – while they continue to be put upon?

 

To say that [the hitting cannot stop] full disengagement cannot occur till the 'crying' stops - is to deny that the ‘crying’ won't stop - until [the hitting stops] full disengagement.

[Guest guest]

jaya srila prabhupada pure devotee of sri krishna!

 

it is a way of the lord to polarise demons in two parts and make them fight to bitter end

 

kurukshetra was occassion to destroy meny demons of this planet

 

its a beter for you to chant and speak muck and vapidity on this forum

 

do not forget that israel after 2 wwar was by crued power created without consezus of anything just togheter with usa...

 

do you think that people of palestina who were persecuted sinds solomon and david all these crazy anholly creatures

should stay and just watch?

 

...that europe wach 3 an half years a sige of sarajevo in bosnia in middel of europa, they have to wach and be slotterd\\????

 

think...

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

What is the point of your posting?

 

Why are you suggesting something irregular in saying - "israel after 2 wwar was by crued power created"?

 

So what you’re saying is that - by crude power Israel came into being - as only recognized by the U.S.A. - well that isn't true.

 

Actually - it came into being gradually and - with great hardship to those who had to pioneer the efforts - the new nation was recognized by more than the U.S. in its formation – Canada recognized it’s fledgling legitimacy as well.

 

Indeed - there were too many ill effects to the Palestinians in this pioneering effort.

 

I see it more as being the responsibility of the British Empire - than the Jewish settlers.

 

Even Prabhupada says that the British created a partition in India to create tensions – that basically Hindus and Muslims were getting along in India - until the British came along and made a new map.

 

Similar situation with the middle east – the British convinced the European Jewish peoples that they were committed to creating an Israeli state for the Jews – then later they told the Arabs that they were committed to the creation of a state for Palestinians – they essentially played one group against the other.

 

It is a known fact that Theodore Hertzl – the founder of the modern effort to create a Jewish state remarked that he felt that the ‘Jews were being compelled to form a state against their wishes’.

 

We must try to understand the world of the past - to properly understand our world situation today.

 

Without doubt the Jewish peoples have been harassed and hunted – by the governments in the nations where they’ve resided.

 

Throughout the last 2000 years of world history – who can deny that such an effort of persecution and extermination might cause some legitimate desire for one’s own state – a place where Jews will not be persecuted - for being Jewish.

 

Imagine if it were any other group suffering this hunt for 2000 years – would they not desire a place free of such persecutions – maybe the home of their ancestors?

 

Now sixty years later - instead of living with state induced persecutions - the people of Israel live with state induced terror and insecurity.

 

It isn’t the formation of the state of Israel that has created these problems – it’s been how it has the situation has been mismanaged by insiders and calculated by outsiders.

 

Please read back in this thread and note the discussions about point and counter-point conflicts – you shall thus see how in kali yuga this problem is taking on a different day-to-day result – please see that we are really all the same in the world – that we essentially really all need the same things – that we all really want to be at peace.

 

We have to see that the prevailing spirit of dissentions and quarrel are a symptom of kali yuga – that the fighting always loses connection with the seed causes – that collective quarrels are enacted as a response to this quarrel proclivity induced by kali yuga.

 

We have to see the simple and important logic in what Jesus says - when he says - ‘turn the other cheek’ – he is saying that quarrel will go on and on - so better to turn the other cheek.

 

All scriptures teach us that - we need to be tolerant and humble.

 

If we cannot apply tolerance and humility in the face of conflict we shall be captured by the personality of kali – quarrel personified – then we shall be lost.

 

It is time for this issue in the Middle East to be resolved properly - before it does become a global conflict – and - if it is to be so resolved - then there cannot be any outside machinations by the various political and religious lobbies in the U.S.A. etc., - we for instance must learn from the past mistakes made by the British Empire in this regard

 

How horrific does our world have to become before we individually and collectively realize that we need significant changes to the present approach to these conflict problems?

 

I ask you to think about what the extremist evangelicals teach about your faith and Krishna – do know that one day - as the personality of kali jumps from group to group and person to person – looking for the host with the most as it were – who it he really looking to target?

 

We learn from Bhagavatam that at some point in kali yuga - Vaishnavas shall be hunted – we are already seeing a very deep encroachment of kali yuga - after only 5000 years – like things could get much worse very quick.

 

Just know that if we are not all mindful of the significant impact of this kali yuga - it may be too late.

 

This is why Prabhupada says:

 

"...This age of Kali [quarrel] will certainly be full of all activities of Kali [quarrel], but this does not mean that the leaders of society, the executive heads, the learned and intelligent men, or above all the devotees of the Lord should sit down tightly and become callous to the reactions of the age of Kali [quarrel]. In the rainy season certainly there will be profuse rainfalls, but that does not mean that men should not take means to protect themselves from the rains..." [shrimad Bhagavatam 1.17.28, purport]

 

That instruction is very practical and each of us in this world has a responsibility to see to this instruction – this is common sense – even if one does not believe in the Age of Quarrel – one cannot fail to see the logic in the advice:

 

...'Do not sit down tightly and become callous to the reactions of quarrel'...

 

It must be noted that the first group of persons that he is addressing are the ‘leaders of society’ – they have the most responsibility in this connection.

 

Next he mentions ‘the executive heads’ – they too have a major responsibility to discourage political quarrel – at any cost. Meaning that they do not aspire to keep profits at the expense of peace and order.

 

Of course - he admonishes - the servants of God - with the most responsibility [to encourage and guide the leaders and the common man alike] – ‘or above all the devotees of the Lord’ – so there it is – we ALL have a responsibility - to do our part in staving-off the reactions of this Age of Quarrel.

 

We [every person with any ability and intelligence] cannot do our part if we are thinking and acting with racial religious political social or economic exclusivities – we must instead – cultivate an inclusive atmosphere.

 

You must be a devotee from your posting - you must then appreciate what Prabhupada says so I beg you to see that this is in keeping with his message.

 

Read back in this thread and see what has been quoted - he has much to say on these matters…

 

We have to see that the world’s current point and counter-point conflicts are not exactly Krishna bringing one party to nullify another – that does of course occur – but in those wars - there are battle fields – now in this present mode of conflict - the battle fields are the streets of cities - the peoples being nullified are not soldiers in battle - they are civilians going about their ordinary lives – this is NOT war – this is irregular fighting.

 

Neither the causes nor the results of these conflicts are arranged by Krishna. We haven’t yet seen what He will do about this kali yuga and its misguided leaders.

 

We know that it is Chaitanya Lila – He saves demons from their demoniac tendencies – He doesn’t kill them.

 

Therefore that perspective aught to become the focus for all of us - as we do our part to find common areas of truth upon which to bring people together.

 

YS,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Who is trying to reply without success?

 

Has the message of this string made it through to the right places?

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

NEWS

 

...Nonetheless, the resolution was adopted under Chapter VII of the U.N. Charter, which is militarily enforceable...

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5382173,00.html

 

Oh please God - don't let this - go the wrong way.

 

Regime changes do not lead to democracies - they [at best]lead to puppet-regimes and later - civil war.

 

The president of Syria needs to not play ANY games - he needs to understand that he has too much to lose - if he chooses to create some point counter-point reaction - as a result of this investigation.

 

If his government is factually implicated - they need to come clean and - make 'good' somehow.

 

The world does not need another Iraq! Nobody needs to go down this path to know that?

 

So in any case - let us ALL Pray to God [blessed be His Holy Name] that - Quarrel Personified - cannot create another Middle East conflict.

 

<big>Certainly - with the mercy of God - they shall ALL hear our Plea - our world doesn't need any more extremists doing any more extremist things - cannot they all just figure it out already?</big>

 

What generally do people want?

 

They want peace and prosperity - if however - they cannot stop fighting - how will they know what they really need?

 

Is there never to be a moment to think otherwise?

 

Is Earth enough of a hellish planet already?

 

Even if they have 'a life' – if it ain't free of envy and hate - it's not any real life...

 

All these various extremists better get a clue soon because God is going to see that [as always] they do not succeed – no matter their backgrounds or - the particular semantics of the hate messages they preach.

 

It does not matter to providence - if it’s ‘this’ extremist – or ‘that’ extremist - whatever kind of extremist – whether religious or political – they are always all cancelled-out by God’s Material Energy - no matter those considerations.

 

God charges everyone within every major Scripture with a message that runs quite counter to the messages of extremists – all these groups within all of the religious traditions know this to be true on some level.

 

All these groups have to realize that no extremist group has ever had collective success in creating a lasting Empire - nor has any extremist succeeded in preserving any real personal influence within their societies – nope - it all comes apart in the end – each time – history has a long list of such examples...

 

We all must do our part to work things out in this world – to address quarrel.

 

We learn from Bhagavatam that at some point in kali yuga - Vaishnavas shall be hunted – we are already seeing a very deep encroachment of kali yuga - after only 5000 years – like things could get much worse very quick. That means ANYONE who believes in God – the personality of Kali and his atheistic program cares not where you pray – it only cares that you do.

 

If all followers of God do not see that age of quarrel atheism is our real concern then - we are all - without doubt - cheating ourselves and - the future - by cultivating an atmosphere for this noted time of collective trouble to occur - much sooner than we think.

 

How many atheistic tyrants and dictators have we seen on this planet in the last 5000 years?

 

"...The artificial way of living depending on factories and tools can render so-called happiness only to a limited number at the cost of millions..." [sB 1.10.5, purport]

 

"...Communism is a movement of sudras, and capitalism is meant for vaisyas. In the fighting between these two factions, the sudras and vaisyas, gradually, due to the abominable condition of society, the communists will emerge triumphant, and as soon as this takes place, whatever is left of society will be ruined...." [C.C. Adi, 8.20, purport]

 

We may delude ourselves and think the menace of this godless type of dictatorship is a thing of the past but - it isn't.

 

We [every devoted person with any ability and intelligence] cannot do our part if we are thinking and acting with racial religious political social or economic exclusivities – we must instead – cultivate an inclusive atmosphere!

 

-------------

 

Please God pour-out Your Spirit – let humanity experience a true ‘moment’ - to see and reflect on the real waste and - the immeasurable loss!

 

Dear Lord - isn't there a moment when the thoughts of a normal peace filled life dominate in their thoughts - don't they dream of peace and prosperity?

 

Please God make that their Universal Dream!

 

------------

 

Of course in the current ‘infectious’ point and counter-point conflict scenario - we have a tug-of-war - between extremists from all camps - and their rope - is the innocent masses.

 

Soon they shall get a ‘rope-burn’ from this tug-of-war?

 

I will predict that we shall avoid any more hell on Earth – God shall act upon our collective hearts soon…

 

Your servant,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

 

NEWS

 

"...President George W. Bush recently promised to use his veto power for the first time ever to stop an amendment proposed earlier this month by Senator John McCain that would outlaw cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of people held by the U.S. military anywhere in the world..."

 

http://www.antiwar.com/ips/kyriakou.php?articleid=7842

 

Very interesting position for one who claims to be a spirit filled Christian!

 

What is his problem anyway? Is he becoming a global menace yet?

 

Words fail to describe his hypocrisy simply stated - what a sociopath!

 

[of course I am praying daily for him and I am quite sure that there is hope for him yet]

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

[Yesu_Bhaktan 0]

Take this scenario. A nuclear device has been smuggled into New York or Delhi by Al-Qaeda. One of the terrorist captured knows the specifics of when and where it is to be deteonated. Personally if I was a terrorist hunter by job description. I would skin that sucker alive one inch at a time until he talked.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

NEWS:

 

More people - 50 percent - object to the government encouraging Arabs to migrate from Israel, compared to 41 percent last year.

 

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/641043.html

 

Very good news.

 

However - the real future of Palestinians - is within their own State - NOT within Israel par-se.

 

The 'right of return' question is a point we've been over in the past and obviously it would be best for both parties to not attempt to even pursue that course.

 

The quarrel must end and the fact is if the Palestinians stay on in Israel it won't happen - there must be a proper resolution - and it must be again noted that Israel's conditions of waiting for better performance within the PA players [especially in the present circumstances] - isn't going to bring anything about - but more quarrel.

 

So as the people in Israel shift back from the right - [as must their leaders] - we can encourage them to keep going - as it's while it's happening that there's the greatest risk of them turning back.

 

Of course - those settlers [like those who murdered Mr. Rabin] who are baiting people themselves with violences [fighting with their leaders and their so-called enemies] better consider what Moshiach would think about 'that' - should he show-up there tomorrow.

 

The fact is - they cannot imagine that?

 

Our world is going to soon see better days - we can all win!

 

Jaya Narasinghadeva!

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Well good for you - and while your at it - we can discuss how this 'manufactured' problem is really a rouse - for something else.

 

There are ways of doing things and ways of not doing them - having a state torture program is one sick thing - laws to legitimize it quite another.

 

What if when there is another global war [the noted president is banking on one?] and U.S. [or any western] soldiers find themselves say - in China - would you like to know that they will be tortured and that - since your nation too has laws making it ok for the U.S. to do it - well - just think about it.

 

As for your nuclear scenario - do not think about how to prevent it by such - too little too late methods - try instead to determine the factual root causes and - see if there is anything that is 'cultivating' it - from the western nations. Why would it be better to do this?

 

Why do the people in the Whitehouse think we're all as thick and bent - as they are?

 

So I do not wish to offend you but - you better consider that for followers vedic culture - there is no question of torture being an un-qualifed coward's way of dealing.

 

Just see - that is the problem - most of our leaders on this planet are NOT in fact qualifed!

 

It is 'by hook or by crook' that *they are in power - that includes that Bush fellow too...

 

[*God willing - they will all have to yet at some point prove they are qualified - to 'their' leader - who knows G.W. may pass...?]

 

I HAVE NOTED IN PAST POSTINGS:

 

The sickest thing someone can do to make change is to act heinously. That kind of mode of ignorance action does bring change - it brings more power for abusive administrations – it creates a despicable atmosphere for everyone - including those who thus act.

 

As Srila Prabhupada says – how can you gain justice by yourself doing injustice?

 

That is the point – in today’s world they are fighting for the wrong purposes and - they are fighting without rules or regulations – it seems that they must exponentially out-do each others atrocities – indeed it’s becoming the sickest one-upmanship process one could imagine.

 

Who isn’t getting fed-up with this nonsense? What do we do with a world like this - where the majority becomes thus bent?

 

Without doubt as the populations of the globe become more and more desensitized and apathetic to the realities of this age of quarrel – the more likely God is to pullback the ‘constraints’ that protect us.

 

The only reason that God prevents complete hell on earth is for the good people – the purer people – the more debauched and hate motivated the populations become - the 'less' there is 'protecting' our world.

 

We know that 'war' cannot be entirely checked – but the fact is quarrel cannot – must not – be cultivated – neither by ill-dealing nor - by unfair and inequitable resources appropriations.

 

"...the head of the state should never fail in chasing an enemy..." [sB 1.12.22, purport]

 

Why shouldn't 'Heads of State' engage their peoples in turf wars?

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

<big>Something very good happened night before last - we helped a 12 year old cat named "Rockey" [who was lost for the last two weeks] - get home.

 

This big orange cat showed up in our yard around a week ago and - he was eating the food that we daily put out for stray-cats – so anyway I wooed him as we feed them can food [for the moisture] and dry food [yes I know where it comes from] - in any case – this new cat came here each day - for the last week to eat and - at last I was able to pet him and see that he had a collar - with a phone number – we called and - they said yes he got lost about two weeks ago when they had moved.

 

He was terribly far from home too – so night before last when he came for his dinner we caught him and they came and got their cat – they said he is 12 years old - they were of course - beyond very happy to get him back!

 

We thank God he’s now made it home.

 

It is so sad that there are scores more cats that are lost [or worse – discarded as in abandoned] and there will be no success story for most of them - we have brought in three [one came to us pregnant with five more which were born in June of last year we kept them] – but we cannot have too many [we already have five litter boxes!] we only have a small four bedroom house [someday if we can move they will be caught and taken with us to a new bigger home!] – so in any case - in the interim - we feel quite guilty if we don’t put cat food out each day [even though we cannot afford it!] for the six or eight cats that still come here and eat each day.

 

Our cats NEVER ever go outside - we hope that others would be kind to their cats and keep them in – only out on a leash – it’s just better that way.

 

We see too many cats on the street and they get chased and abused by nasty mean ‘kids’ and many are often nearly run over when they misjudge the speeding automobiles – we see this [and what about what isn’t seen by people - like bad garbage and dogs] and it’s so SAD – Please Please Please – everyone please keep your cats inside!

 

One nice cat we’ve rescued was on the street - that we know of - for three years – we had been feeding him for three years – he even had a collar on - that was obviously put there when he was very small – as it was choking him – he was very hard to get near – he had no trust – at last - only two months ago - I was able to pet him as he was eating and - I slowly got his confidence over the next week – then - I got the collar off him – gee was he happy!

 

So in any case - he wasn’t a candidate to bring in to our house right away with our other cats – so – we’ve made a nice temporary home for him - in the front porch - with a space heater to stay warm – he is quite happy now – and - for a cat that was on the street as long as he was - he is very loving and - he's never once had a litter box accident – he is a big gray cat with the gentlest personality – so in any case - we are keeping him!

 

At some point - he will be getting to know the others he will spend the rest of his days with. He of course only goes out on a leash now – no more wandering for him – he needs to be neutered as well and we cannot afford that at this time and [because we have some females and - we do not need any kittens] - so - he must live in the front porch for now and go out occasionally - on his leash.

 

Incidentally - we would never send them to the SPCA as they would spend their last three weeks in a small cage only to be 'put to sleep' - that is too sad to consider - people think that the pound helps these animals - but there are simply too many cats - thousands are put down each year in this city - and in cities everywhere - so only less than 2% gets a home and - it's not usually the mangy ones who've been on the street for months - or years - like the ones we've rescued.

 

So in any case – it is just great that '12 year old Rockey' made it home last night – right now - he is again happy at home – a definite Diwali Miracle…! </big>

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

...assassinated by a Jewish extremist for his policy of land-for-peace reconciliation with the Palestinians...

 

http://news./s/afp/20051104/ts_afp/mideastisraelrabinanniversary_051104153553

 

So why do we most often see the use of the word "Jewish" extremist - as opposed to "Israeli" extremist or - better yet - how about simply - "extremist".

 

On the other hand - we see their opposites - the Palestinians - described as "Palestinian militants".

 

Why does 'this' matter?

 

Well do we see the use of the term "Christian" extremist - in describing the extremist evangelicals? Not that I've seen.

 

So why then is it ok to say "Jewish" extremist or "Muslim" extremist or "Hindu" extremist - but we never hear - "Christian" extremist?

 

I see that in this noted case - the description of the Israeli militants as "Jewish" extremists - is a subtle profiling of a whole group - every bit as much as when we hear "Muslim" extremist!

 

I do realize that in this case the news story is talking about the person who murdered the Honorable Mr. Rabin - and they are "extremists" - but - the "Jewish" part becomes moot - with their noted evil actions.

 

If we can see the disenfranchized Palestinians as 'militants' - then we should see the opposite descriptions applied as fairly - in connection to the Israelis.

 

It is most important to not use these words - out of context - because people read these news stories and - they will form 'attitudes' towards entire groups - based on these overtly broard descriptions.

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Of course in my title posting I write:

 

There are so many examples to be given - so let's just say 'without' those examples - extremist Christians [from various schools] and extremist Muslims [from various schools] and extremist Zionist Jews [from various schools] are converging in a global arena.

 

But in the use of the word here it is applied collectively to the major extremist factions that are the groups of consequence in the noted conflict.

 

The term extremist is applied with a description of Muslim Jewish etc., in a collective sense - thus it defines who is whom.

 

If the discussions do not include mention of an explication in these terms then the uses of these words are out of context.

 

One thing that we’ve been seeing in our world is the secular atheistic propaganda that says our world is messed up due to religion and God and – with continual reinforcements from news stories that continually throw around these words “Muslim extremists - Muslim extremists - Muslim extremists” – well then the atheistic programmers are wanting people to equate “Muslim” with “extremist” – the same result is true of such use of the words “Jewish extremists - Jewish extremists - Jewish extremists” – people will begin to equate Jew with extremist – this isn’t exactly coincidental.

 

There are a growing number of propagandists in the world who wish to do away with religion and our faith in God – they see that the communist model of state atheism is a good way to bring the populations - further from ‘universal’ moral and ethical teachings – to instead reduce the faith of humanity from being reposed in God to having it centered on the state instead.

 

So I just wanted to point out that there are times to use these terminologies and there are times not to.

 

As noted – it is a subject all too often lightly dealt with in news – there are little to no information in these stories for readers to understand the context of these descriptions. More and more it’s damn religion and God and – those who believe in Him. The new 80-90’s generation - are less inclined to faith than there predecessors and it is in this climate that such propagandas can take hold.

 

Better for us to see it as ‘extremists’ and leave it at that – if they need to be identified then do it first by place of national origin – then if there needs to be an applied label of religion – it must be with proper explanation each time.

 

I hope this makes sense….

 

BDM

[Yesu_Bhaktan 0]

Setting off a nuclear bomb or bio-terroism is also sick. So it's a choice sick or sicker. The planet is sick.

 

You can tell the antagonists to stop fighting at sundown then quit and party together, and oh yeah using the mace below the waist is against the rules because it's not vedic all you like but I don't think anyone will listen.

 

Good luck.

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

<big> “…The illusory energy has two phases of existence, namely the covering influence and the throwing influence. By the throwing influence the illusory energy throws the living entities into the darkness of ignorance, and by the covering influence she covers the eyes of men with a poor fund of knowledge…” [sB 2.9.34, purport]

 

So in this conflict plagued world we see that the material energy is covering the awareness and intelligence of the - oh so many disenfranchised parties – who’s ill reactions cultivate an environment where they [and others] are thrown into cyclic patterns of retaliations and reactions.

 

Naturally - due to this karmic or reactive arrangement - it is very difficult and - even near to impossible - for violently conflicted parties to either empathize or identify with each other [or their opponents whomever they are] – they simply function as disgruntled opposites – indeed - they seem to be stuck in a mode of ill-muscle flexing - with ignorance they thus cheat themselves - with each inappropriate action/reaction directed toward each other or society in general.

 

People who resort to violence [for any reasons] wrongly identify with their own justifications of their violent reactions - as opposed to rejecting such justifications - irrespective of the circumstances.

 

The cataclysmic cyclic trend is loping shorter each time – meaning the time between an ill action and reaction - is almost instant – violently conflicted parties do not give themselves a moment to think of this pattern nor - the reality of their running such endless circles in hell.

 

Each time the material energy throws violently quarreling parties - they are thrown further and harder. There is a point to that allegory.

 

Without doubt this ‘logistic’ is true of all the conflicts in today’s world that have violence as a component.

 

It’s all a pointless - tit for tat where people thus engaged do not see their chaotic positions as an improper position rather than a justified one.

 

We all need each others help – again and again history will repeat – age of quarrel history – unless each person takes some responsibility to quell violent conflict of any kind - collective or - otherwise.

 

As hard as it might be for such conflicted parties to understand – they are really only setting themselves up for the noted painful end to come [as it always does] - to usurp them and their so-called violence orientated “let’s make change” processes.

 

As noted - violence always has a providential feedback loop and – violent aggressive people have to see that they cannot prevail in the present course – that that ‘loss’ to come - is ‘loss’ for - everyone - including loss for them of course - karmic losses following them - life after life.

 

Each day in this conflicted world the frustrations of the disenfranchised swells and flashes – while the masses are more and more being baited into the tossing and throwing of the material energy in it’s most painful extremes – the scope of this broadening hopelessness - is the real point of our protest.

 

I pray that God wills it that every unfortunate soul who resorts to violence - must stop and think – think how they have created a scenario of instant karma – instant reactions - wherein everyone who targets - is going to be targeted by another – and too often - it’s the ‘innocent loved ones’ of the various factions who suffer one way or another too!

 

The sickest thing anyone can do to make any kind of ‘change’ - is to act heinously.

 

That kind of quality of ignorance action does bring ‘change’ - it brings more power for abusive administrations – it creates a despicable atmosphere for everyone - including those who thus act.

 

As Srila Prabhupada says – how can you gain justice by yourself doing injustice?

 

Right now in our world - we are seeing a greater surge in the influence of the age of quarrel – of late - in Paris with the ongoing youth riots and now - in Argentina at the Summit of the America’s.

 

The Prime Minister of Canada – today remarked candidly in a statement:

 

“I am dismayed and deeply troubled by the violence unfolding in Argentina during the Summit of the Americas. We in Canada believe in the free and frank exchange of ideas; peaceful demonstration is a part of this. We cannot allow the integrity of the peaceful exchange of ideas to be demeaned by the deplorable and reckless acts of a few.”

 

This shows great insight into the understanding of the Liberal government elect in Canada – they do not see protest etc., as sedition mongering – in fact the Prime Minister even uses the word “frank” - meaning “blunt” - it’s an adjective – meaning – [protest which is] “characterized by disconcerting directness in manner or speech; without subtlety or evasion” – so we can [must] have ‘that’ in the ‘free exchange of ideas’ of dissatisfactions and dissent – but - when anyone acts violently or heinously - they besmirch the very idea of proper and lawful protest.

 

If people really want proper [fair] change they shall act appropriately – if they are simply mad quarrel mongers - then there is the State Police to subjugate their activities – I do doubt that that is what they want. Why would they want that? Only one who is ‘mad’ would want anything other than proper and fair change – most people are NOT ‘mad’ as it were – they are upset. It is in that connection they may be able to be ill directed by bad ‘leaders’.

 

People mustn’t become ‘mad’ in their fighting of their plights – even I am not immune - I have a very present and real experience of having to show great patience and humility - in the face of being severely and seriously abused by an government insurance company – but - if I am going to succeed at gaining compen$ation and - bringing REAL PROPER CHANGE - then that humble [but frank] approach to ‘my’ protest is the only way and - there is NO other way – and I shall see the positive results - sooner or later...

 

Please God let us all solve our ‘problems’ – please let our world overcome it’s selfishness and envy – please God pour out your Spirit on all Flesh!</big>

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Who said it wasn’t sick? The end does not justify the means – that is a fact.

 

So what is ‘your’ point then – is it that our world is now so demoniac that one must act like a demon to counteract it?

 

What about doing something about why these terrorists are so evil – can there be any programs to address that?

 

How is an extermination program going to succeed?

 

Also if they have any suitcase nukes – whose fault is that? Who are the major players that created those?

 

Do you think that they might have a need to work on satellite technology to permit them to see any significant amount of weapons grade nuclear materials wherever it might be found – I think they know where these things are – it serves them and their program to not find them?

 

In any case – this torture program is sick – the fact is people who are tortured will say anything to make it stop – and people who are torturing to seek information are really not getting information they are told what they want to hear.

 

Do you think that the U.S. president’s evangelical base is going to approve of it when he has to let them down on their Armageddon plans?

 

Have you any comments about the point of this thread?

 

What about the fact that the war on terrorism - is really a turf war of sorts and that the so-called Muslim extremists - are a counter-point to the evangelical extremists – or is it the other way around – well it matters little in the final estimation of the problem.

 

Where do you stand with respect to evangelical propaganda centered about the Antichrist and Armageddon delusions?

 

Just wondering about this and more….

 

[Yesu_Bhaktan 0]

 

Have you any comments about the point of this thread?

 

 

To be honest I haven't really followed it. I read a few posts and decided not to respond. Plugging in to the Israeli vs. Palestinian conflict would lead nowhere.

 

Sometimes we are presented with extraordinary options in this world and perhaps none of them are anything we care to do.

 

Ever see that movie where Tom Cruise is playing a lawyer and cross examining Jack Nicholson who is playing some base commander or something in Guantanamo. I fogot the name of it. Anyway Cruise demands the truth and Nicholson retorts "You can't handle the truth!" A lot of truth in that.

 

These sort of impossibly tough options are being played out in various forms everyday. We criticize freely from our relatively safe positions but when the hypothetical question appears before us we can' handle even that.

 

You would rather see a nuclear bomb detonated in a major city than torture the truth from one man who has the knowledge to stop it but won't give it up all in the name of fair play. OK. I would torture him for the knowledge to save the residences of the city.

 

That just shows our different perspectives.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Quote:

 

We criticize freely from our relatively safe positions

 

Reply:

 

You seem to think your freedoms are worth something - you seem to think that the Bush administration is all about protecting your rights.

 

It's not about different visions - it's about calling a spade a spade - without the sentimentality feature this war on terror is doing little by way helping your rights.

 

I am of the opinion that the terror in our world is directly linked to the Bush admin. that they [and the evangelical lobby] have some turf war going on and you are in the middle - and you don't really care.

 

If you don't read here how can you really comment in a wise way?

 

In another string I see that you say you only browsed Prabhupada's books - yet you were posting like some expert on sannyas!?

 

No offense - but I think you might be in too much passion - like a bee going from flower to flower - never more than a moment anywhere - this isn't good for spiritual life.

 

Why have you decided not to respond?

 

Quote:

 

Sometimes we are presented with extraordinary options in this world and perhaps none of them are anything we care to do.

 

Reply:

 

Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them. [bG 16.7]

 

Again the end doesn't justify the means.

 

These 'extraordinary options' sound less like a lamentation and more like after the fact apologetics - what we have are extraordinary problems - the options are our choice.

 

How does one think in terms of what may happen as a result of any action - as Krishna says:

 

And that action performed in ignorance and delusion without consideration of future bondage or consequences, which inflicts injury and is impractical, is said to be action in the mode of ignorance. [bG 18.25]

 

The intricacies of action are very hard to understand. Therefore one should know properly what action is, what forbidden action is, and what inaction is. [bG 4.17]

 

So what does that mean? It means only God knows the results of our actions - that if we act foolish 'without consideration of future bondage or consequences' thinking we can work around the intricacies of action - we are quite deluded.

 

The bible says:

 

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [Galatians 5.18]

 

So what does that mean here? How do the born again extremists interpret that one? To them it matters not what they do. However in this same book we read:

 

Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. [Galatians 5.26]

 

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. [Galatians 6.7]

 

Krishna confirms it directly:

 

Nor does the Supreme Spirit assume anyone’s sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge. [bG 5.15]

 

So that means that 'these' spirit filled extremists are quite responsible for what they do – they are responsible to the peoples and - to God.

 

They claim they do these things - as an impossible choice - but that isn't true.

 

In another posting I wrote:

 

…in today’s world they are fighting for the wrong purposes and - they are fighting without rules or regulations – it seems that they must exponentially out-do each others atrocities – indeed it’s becoming the sickest one-upmanship process one could imagine.

 

Who isn’t getting fed-up with this nonsense? What do we do with a world like this - where the majority becomes thus bent?

 

Without doubt as the populations of the globe become more and more desensitized and apathetic to the realities of this age of quarrel – the more likely God is to pullback the ‘constraints’ that protect us.

 

The only reason that God prevents complete hell on earth is for the good people – the purer people – the more debauched and hate motivated the populations become - the 'less' there is 'protecting' our world.

 

We know that 'war' cannot be entirely checked – but the fact is quarrel cannot – must not – be cultivated – neither by ill-dealing nor - by unfair and inequitable resources appropriations.

 

"...the head of the state should never fail in chasing an enemy..." [sB 1.12.22, purport]

 

Why shouldn't 'Heads of State' engage their peoples in turf wars?

 

To play by rules is our prerogative - our faith and transcendental understanding [with ethics and morals] doesn't depend on others - at least - it isn't supposed to.

 

Quote:

 

You would rather see a nuclear bomb detonated in a major city than torture the truth from one man who has the knowledge to stop it but won't give it up all in the name of fair play. OK. I would torture him for the knowledge to save the residences of the city.

 

Reply:

 

I would not like to see anything like that happen! You describe this torture as being without some sort of fallacious motives – but we know better than that – otherwise there wouldn’t be an E.U. investigation at this time looking for Bush and Co.’s secret gulags.

 

We all want these problems to be resolved and as long as we have some leaders calculating as noted they will not be resolved.

 

It seems that you would rather leave these noted western extremists in power to continue to goad and bait these far away extremists?

 

Your perspective isn't all that clear – you didn’t mention - do you ascribe to the dangerous Satan/antichrist myth?

 

They will kill poor, faultless living entities, torture women and enrage the great souls. [sB 3.14.40]

 

Isn't that the direction these western extremists are heading?

 

It should be noted that in the Bhagavatam in 6.3.9 - the words for 'hellish planets' in the original Sanskrit are rendered as - 'the torture chambers' in the transliteration - so is that what Earth is now becoming – a torture chambers a - hellish planet?

 

Prabhupada often equates the torture propensity with ENVY - they are concomitant factors to the same results.

 

Quote:

 

when the hypothetical question appears before us we can' handle even that

 

Reply:

 

I wrote previously on this thread:

 

What is wrong with the continued delusional direction of this colossal mess? It may have something to do with these ‘outside’ directors?

 

We know that the majority of the groups of peoples who put Mr. Bush into Office are expecting the [fictional] antichrist to solve this peace issue – especially with respect to Jerusalem and - the resultant re-building of the third Temple.

 

Of course - Mr. Bush isn’t exactly being fair to the Israelis because he and his noted lobby think that the [fictional] antichrist is going to be a Jew and that rebuilding of the Temple shall signal his ‘identity’ - starting from- ‘whomever brokers’ - the move of the Dome - to make this rebuilding possible.

 

Some Muslims ascribe to a similar false teaching about the fictional "antichrist" - they call it 'Dajjal' - they too claim it is to be a Jew.

 

This is a very involved subject and I’ll say it again and again - I do not think that the American Administration should be involved in this peace process - due in part to their noted views of the [so-called] prophetic future unfolding - as the various evangelicals lobby these leaders and the masses - the reasons are that much more direct - these points are discussed in other posts in this string.

 

The fact is these leaders [and their lobby] do not care about the Palestinians either.

 

As noted in my last post they have interpolated a Torah text into their dogma with all sorts of delusions with a so-called ‘history’ - recorded in Genesis 25.20-34 wherein they think they see God - rejecting the Arab nations – they twist other verses into this delusional bigotry as well.

 

The cat and the rat make peace over a carcass

 

Again - what does that mean here?

 

It means that if these conflicted parties continue like this - they shall not be making peace with each other - [over the region and its issues] - but rather - the 'cats and the rats' shall 'make peace' and thus 'feast' on them and - the spoils of their loss...

 

In context:

 

The cat and the rat make peace over a carcass

 

Consider that one could see the cat and the rat - as the neo-cons and the evangelicals and - one could thus see the carcass - as the failed peace process...and of course - the peace they make would be what kind of - ill-calculation for the parties?

 

We must pray for Bush and Co. that they step aside once and for all and permit the world [including themselves] to heal and move forward.

 

So that is the basics of my perspective – where does your perspective come into this?

 

I realize it seems that there is a lot to read here but it really isn’t that much to read – one should do more than browse?

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Quote:

 

"So if anyone loves Krishna, he must love Lord Jesus Christ also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus Christ he must love Krishna." - Srila Prabhupada, May 12,1969

 

Reply:

 

Of course - I very much love your choice of signature quote!

[Yesu_Bhaktan 0]

 

If you don't read here how can you really comment in a wise way?

 

 

"Here" is not the only source of information. I don't claim wisdom, I only claim to be opinonated.

 

 

In another string I see that you say you only browsed Prabhupada's books - yet you were posting like some expert on sannyas!?

 

 

One can read Prabhupada's books 10 hours a day for fifty years and still be a browser by virtue of limited realization.

 

 

No offense - but I think you might be in too much passion - like a bee going from flower to flower - never more than a moment anywhere - this isn't good for spiritual life.

 

 

Yes you are undoubtly correct. My mind is very fickle. My only hope is that I land on flowers filled with Krishna nectar. If so then what's the harm?

 

 

Why have you decided not to respond?

 

 

I need nectar. Such controversies have occupied too much of my mind in the recent years and I am now changing directions. I still post on the World Review board but drawn out debates on this stuff is a waste of time for me.

[Yesu_Bhaktan 0]

Yes we must all work to see that Prabhupada's teaching don't get sunk in the pond of mundane religious sectarianism. The lotus grows above the murky water.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

Prabhu!

 

Still no answer on the antichrist and satan myth point?

 

Quote:

 

I need nectar. Such controversies have occupied too much of my mind in the recent years and I am now changing directions. I still post on the World Review board but drawn out debates on this stuff is a waste of time for me.

 

Reply:

 

This is not really a debate as it were. I wish you luck in finding a big old flower - filled with nectar from Krishna!

 

YS,

 

BDM