Radharani: Another Stupid Question

[Guest guest]

She is Sridama's friend.....

She wears blue garments.....

a resident of the earth.....

expert.....

beautiful.....

She meditates on Lord Hari.....

and is dedicated to pleasing Lord Hari.....

She is merciful.....

She gives a result.....

She kills the kusmandas.....

She grants .....

She is in control .....

She is the leader.....

She is agitated.....

She is very happy.....

 

etc.. etc.. etc...

 

these are qualities and actions.... so individuality and personality are there

[Guest guest]

you are one person,when you go to work as

a policeman you wear a certain uniform,

your personality is that of a cop,

you relate to the criminals and your fellow

cops as a cop.

 

when you go home you take the uniform off,

you put on some comfortable clothes,

you play with your kids,your personality

is of a father to your children.

 

then you relate to your wife,

your personality changes to

relate as a lover.

 

on the weekend you go visit your parents,

your personality changes and you relate

to them as their child.

 

always,you are the same person,

you display different appearence and personalities

dependent on circumstance.

 

God is the same, God is displaying different

personalities in different forms in different

circumstances, always God is the same person.

 

nothing more,nothing less.

 

Radha is the complete display of the

female attributes of God,

Her expansions display various

quantities and qualities of

Her personality,still they are all

the same one person.

 

Krsna is the complete display of

the male attributes of God,

His expansions display various

quantities and qualities of

His personality,still they are

all the same one person.

 

Radha and Krsna are also

the same person,female

and male displays of the

supreme personality of

godhead.

 

This is gaudiya siddhanta,

anything else is not supported

by shastra,anywhere,at anytime.

 

If you want to preach polytheism,

good luck with that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Guest guest]

from Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana,

a great acarya in the gaudiya parampara.

 

"Isvara is supremely independent. He is the master of all potencies. He enters the universe and controls it. He awards both material enjoyment and ultimate liberation to the individual spirit souls (jivas)residing in material bodies. Although He is one, He manifests in many forms. They who understand the transcendental science maintain that He is not different from His own transcendental form and qualities. Although He cannot be perceived by the material senses, He can be perceived by bhakti (devotional service). He is changeless. He reveals His own spiritual, blissful form to His devotees.

 

Of all the eternals ,one (the Supreme Personality of Godhead) is the supreme eternal. Of all conscious entities, one (the Supreme Personality of Godhead) is the supreme conscious entity."

 

- - Svetäsvatara Upaniñad 6.13

 

"As a vaidürya jewel manifests many different colors, so the

Supreme Lord manifests many different forms. Each of these forms

is the same perfect, complete, and pure Supreme Lord. In some

forms the Lord displays all His qualities, and other forms the

Lord does not display all His qualities. Therefore a wise devotee

may meditate on all the Lord qualities, as described in the

scriptures, as being present in the particular form of the Lord

that is chosen for worship".

 

 

"Both Lord Hari and His associates are the same persons in

both previous and subsequent actions. Why is that? The sütra

explains: "sarväbhedäd" because of complete non-

difference. This means that because there is no difference

in Their personalities, the same Lord Hari and the same associates present in the previous actions are also present in the subsequent actions. That Lord Hari remains one even though He

expands into many forms is confirmed in the Gopäla-täpané

Upaniñad in these words:

 

eko 'pi san bahudhä yo 'vabhäti

 

"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."

 

Also, in the Småti-sästra it is said:

 

ekäneka-svarüpäya

 

"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."

This is also true of the Lord's liberated associates, who remain one even though they appear in many forms."

 

 

"The forms of the Supreme Lord are undivided. They

are all full of eternity, knowledge, infinity, and bliss.

 

In this way it is said that although the Lord's forms

present a very wonderful variety, still They are all one in

essence. Although this truth was also described in sütra 3.2.14,

the merciful teacher of Vedänta repeats the same teaching so this very difficult topic may be clearly understood."

 

 

 

"As a vaidurya gem (lapis lazuli) manifests different colours when observed from different angles, so the Supreme Personality of Godhead manifests many different forms. Of all these forms, His two-armed form is the most handsome and has all the Lord’s transcendental qualities in completeness. The other forms are not like it. In the Sruti-sastra it is said:

 

“The other forms of the Lord are not equal to His two-armed form.”

 

Here someone may protest: The Lord’s two-armed form and other forms are all inferior to His four-armed form, which stays always in Vaikunthaloka.

 

To this I reply: That is not an idea fashioned with much thought. In the Maha-Varaha Purana it is said:

 

“All the forms of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are eternal. They are never born and they never die. They are not material.”

 

“They are all full of bliss and knowledge. They are full of all transcendental qualities and free of any faults.”

 

The Katha Upanisad declares that the Lord’s two-armed form is the highest. Any idea that contradicts this is wrong.

 

The Supreme Lord is identical with each of His forms. They are all Him. That a certain form of the Lord is His original form, or an expansion of that form, or an expansion of the expansion is determined only by how much of His powers the Lord chooses to display when He manifests that form. Only in that way are some forms of the Lord considered higher and others less high. The great devotees of the Lord declare:

 

“The Lord’s forms are considered greater or lesser on the basis of how much of His transcendental power the Lord chooses to manifest when He reveals them.”

 

 

"Because she is not different from the Supreme Lord, Goddess Laksmi is also all pervading. In the Smrti-sastra it is said:

 

“Goddess Laksmi is the mother of the worlds. She is the constant companion of Lord Visnu. As Lord Visnu is all pervading, so is she.”

 

"To think that Goddess Laksmi is different from Lord Visnu, but still all-pervading, is a false, a heretical idea. In this way the idea that Goddess Laksmi is an individual spirit soul, like the many millions of other individual spirit souls is refuted. As Lord Visnu has limitless transcendental qualities, so does Goddess Laksmi. In the scriptures it is said:

 

“O Goddess, even if we had tongues like the demigod Brahma, we still could not describe all Your transcendental qualities. O Lotus-eyed Goddess Laksmi, please do not ever abandon your devotees.”

 

When Lord Visnu assumes different forms, Goddess Laksmi also assumes different forms and follows Him. In the scriptures it is said:

 

“When Lord Visnu assumes the form of a demigod, Goddess Laksmi assumes the form of a demigoddess. When He assumes the form of a human man, she assumes the form of a human woman. In this way she assumes a form to match the form of Lord Visnu.”

 

Sri Radha is the origin of all the forms of Goddess Laksmi. Sri Krsna is the origin of all the forms of Lord Visnu. In the Purusa-bodhini Upanisad it is said:

 

“In the land of Gokula in Mathura-mandala, Lord Krsna resides. At His two sides are Radha and Candravali.

 

There it is also said:

 

“Laksmi, Durga, and the Lord’s potencies are expansions of Sri Radha.”

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

"Is it not true that amorous love is

possible only when there are two: the lover and the beloved? If

there is no difference between the lover and the beloved, then

love is not possible between them."

 

"If this is said, then the author of the sütras gives the following reply.

 

upasthite 'tas tad-vacanät

 

"It is in His presence.It is so because of the statement."

 

The word "upasthite" means "nearness",

even though the Lord's potency and the Lord Himself, the shelter of that potency, are one,

still, because the Lord is the best of males and His potency is the jewel of young girls, when They are together there is naturally the perfection of blissful amorous pastimes.

How is that known? The sütra explains:

"tad-vacanät" (because of the statement).

 

In the Gopäla-täpané Upanisad (2.25) it is said:

 

yo ha vai kämena kämän kämayate sa kämé bhavati. yo ha vai tv akämena kämän kämayate so 'kämé bhavati.

 

"He who lusts after pleasures is lusty. He who

enjoys without material lust is not lusty."

 

"In these words the amorous pastimes of the Lord are

described.

The word "a-kämena" here means "with

something that bears certainly similarities to lust". This thing with some similarities to material lust is the Lord's pure spiritual love.

That is the meaning.

With spiritual love He

enjoys the goddess of fortune, who is actually Himself.

 

In this way He finds pleasure and fulfillment.

For this there is no fault on His part. By touching the goddess of fortune, who is actually Himself, the Lord enjoys transcendental bliss.

It is like a person gazing at his own handsomeness in a mirror. That is what is said here. "

 

"Different from His spiritual potency (parä sakti) is the potency of the Lord's form (svarüpa-sakti). The Sruti-sästras and other scriptures explain

that through the svarüpa-sakti the Supreme Lord manifests as the best of males,

and through the parä çakti the Lord manifests His various transcendental

qualities. It is through the parä sakti that the Lord manifests

His knowledge, bliss, mercy, opulence, power, sweetness, and other qualities.

 

It is also through the parä Sakti that the Vedic

scriptures are manifested. In the same way is manifested the earth and other places.

Manifesting as the Lord's pleasure

potency (hlädiné Sakti), the parä Sakti appears as Sri Rädhä, the jewel of teenage girls.

 

Although the Lord and His parä sakti are not different,

still, for enjoying different pastimes,

They are manifested as different.

In this way the Lord's desires are perfectly and

completely fulfilled."

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

so here Sri Baladeva gives an astonishing explanation

of Rasa between Radha and Krsna.

 

through the swarupa-sakti the lord manifests as the best

of males,through the para-sakti the lord manifests His various transcendental qualities as Sri Radha.

 

Although the Lord and His parä sakti are not different,

still, for enjoying different pastimes, They are manifested as different.

 

So we are told the rasa is like Krsna looking in a mirror,

the whole thing is being done by one person manifesting

variety for the enjoyment of pastimes,The goddess of fortune who is really himself, we are told,is touched

and in doing so He finds pleasure and fullfillment.

 

so we can understand that in fact Krsna and His Saktis

are One,actually Himself,the rasa is no different then

that with a mirror,yet mysteriously Krsna derives

satisfaction from this activity.

 

Why ?

 

"when They are together there is naturally the perfection of blissful amorous pastimes."

 

here we have the answer, blissful amorous pastimes

are perfected by their rasa,in other words their

rasa is for the sake of perfecting lila,

perfecting the pastimes of Vraja.

 

so the truth is it takes two to tango, the pastimes

of the lord are manifested for the ecstacy they bring,

although Radha and Krsna are the central figures

of the lila,their rasa is compared to one looking

into a mirror,in fact

Krsna said, when giving His blessings to Uddhava

 

na tatha me priyatama atmayonir na sankarah

na ca sankarsano na srir naivatma ca yatha bhavan

 

"Neither Brahma nor Siva are as dear to Me as you; My elder brother Sankarsana is not as dear to Me as you, nor even Laksmi Devi. Even My own Self is not as dear to Me as you."

 

"Among my favorites Brahma is dear to Me.

Lakshmi, ever residing on my chest, is dearer than Brahma.

Radha is yet dearer, and my devotees are dearer still.

Dearest of all is Shankara (Siva); no one is dearer than He.

My heart resides with my devotees, My life with Radha.

My Self with Sankara, who is dearer than My life."

 

This is the vision of God,the devotee is the shelter

of the supreme lord and the supreme lord is the shelter

of the devotee.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[yasodanandana 0]

all the problems come because we are using concepts of the material world for explaining the spiritual one and because there's not a concept or a word of our conditionated language to explain the existence in the spiritual realm.

 

So , the thing of the policeman who goes home and leaves the role of policeman to take the one of the father, to display a different, more intimate personality, is absolutely right. In the material world there's a strong duality between inner and outer, substance and appearance, marginal and essential, body and soul and so on. We have an essence and an appearance and we know that the essence, the soul is real, and the other roles we display in this world are illusory and temporary and they are only dresses. All is dualism, the world is based on the difference by existence and maya, and all the variety is generated by this.

 

But it is not the same for the spiritual world, there we do not miss the variety, the differences, because in spirit we do not miss any of the things existing in the matter, but we have also the concept and the quality of the oneness.. and they coexist.

 

But we conditioned humans, in our language and in our material way to think, we do not understand this fact..

 

We agree that everything it is in the spiritual realm is god (it is also the same with the material world, but let's not introduce another subject) but we have also to explain the variety. If we make it in a material way we can say that variety is an illusion, the oneness is the only aspect, and the only real existence is krsna. The opposite expaination, also material, could be that the variety is the only truth and and we have many supreme gods and polytheism.

 

My opinion is that if we have so many advices by the masters saying that krsna and his associates are one, but also so many demonstrations and displays in the scriptures of complete and complex personalities, the truth has to be different from the above material excesses. In our philosophy the word PERSONALITY is very sensible and supremely important, so important that we say that the ulimete reality, the source of all the others existences is not GOD, but the SUPREME PERSONALITY of GODHEAD.

So, the result and sum of the many citations you have brought and all the spiritual culture if the divine lilas is that the concept that we both accept "RADHA and KRISHNA are ONE displaying DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES" has not to be explained with human cathegories that, for ignorance and real mental insufficiency, are excessively attached to one of the two aspects of oneness or variety.

 

So RADHA is KRSNA and RADHA is a PERSON, these statements have the same importance and they are fully implemented in the spiritual world.

 

As said from other devotees partecipating in this discussion we cannot have this huge display of lilas, activities, complex personalities and relationships, to discover at the end that everything is an allegory and krsna is alone and sad in a desert spiritual universe without even a chair to sit, because if there would be a chair in vaikunta this chair has to be krishna without any form of distinction with him.

 

"God is displaying different

personalities in different forms in different

circumstances, always God is the same person"

••••that's right.. different personalities and the same person, these two words in this context are synonims, we say that krsna is the supreme personality of godhead, so if we accept that the word PERSONALITY means only EXTERNAL APPEARANCE, we arrive to the conclusion that KRSNA is the external display of a more deeper, internal reality... and that's not vaishnava, that's advaitism.

 

(i repeat... if PERSONALITY means EXTERNAL APPEARANCE, "supreme personality of godhead" means "supreme external apparence of godhead" saying that god is beyond the personal krsna form... and that's not true!!)

 

PERSON and PERSONALITY are not synonims of EXTERNAL APPEARANCE... certainly not in the spiritual realm where there's not exterior, maya...

 

 

If you want to preach polytheism,

good luck with that.

••••the problem is that you preach impersonalism to counteract my polytheism :-)

 

(the other citations, in my opinion, add nothing to this discussion... let us use them when some one will come saying that the lilas are material stories with ordinary mortal humans and illusory personalities involved)

[gHari 0]

We all accept that Srimati Radharani is Krsna. There is no need to constantly state it as though it were a breakthrough.

 

The difference is that you maintain that Their pastimes in the Kingdom of God, including those in the forests of Vrindavana (both Goloka and Gokula) are simply feigned to teach.

 

The difference is that one view sees Krsna actually in love with Radha (that to enjoy They have separated Themselves forever), and the other view sees Krsna only feigning love for Radha (for He is not psychotic trying to talk to Himself, trying to love Himself). The idea seems to be that Krsna feigned these pastimes with Himself in different forms to teach lessons. The question was "What need is there to teach such lessons in the spiritual world?"

 

It is well-accepted that 2 + 2 = 4. There is no need to cover that over and over again. It just clouds the issue. Accept it as a given. Radha and Krsna are One. Given.

 

We may all be ignorant, although acaryas like Krsna das Kaviraja and the others may only be continuing the ruse for the plight of us ignorant ones who couldn't benefit if we knew it was only a lesson for us to learn. Somehow we benefit more if we think that there really is love between Krsna and Radha, that He really wanted to know why She loves Him so and in what way. He is She so of course He knows; but the reasons given in the Sri Caitanya-caritamrita for the appearance of Lord Caitanya are simply for us ignorant ones who do not know the real tattva.

 

To me, for Krsna to see anyone as an entity different from Himself is quite amazing. I think it would be easier for Him to see Radha with all Her qualities and limitless charm as a different entity with whom He could relate. I think He is so spellbound that He cannot take the time to remember that She is a part of Him, that in some distant past They separated forever to enjoy rasa as indeed They do with ever-increasing pleasure. And She too is too enchanted to consider that long ago at some unknowable point They were One, Sri Krsna. I think this is the mystery of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna, the unknowable world of the complex Supreme Personality of Godhead who is known as Sri Krsna.

 

In the end, I don't think it is up to us. What matters is what Krsna desires. If we can't understand how it is that He REALLY feels oceans of love for Radha, then concluding that it is all false, some sort of elaborate metaphor, may not sit well with the Lord - dismissing the love of His life and the love that He craves, as mere tutorial symbolism.

[Guest guest]

"We all accept that Srimati Radharani is Krsna. There is no need to constantly state it as though it were a breakthrough."

 

Thats not true, yasodanandana and you have both said at

one time or another that Radha and Krsna are two

distinct individuals,one and different,two people

sharing the power of God,as all the expansions are doing,

this is your position,Many God's sharing godship

in some unknown mystical mysterious way.

 

THAT is your position, THAT is the point of this debate,

you guys say MANY Gods in one,i say ONE God in many

forms, YOU say MANY indivduals sharing the power

of Godship,I say ONE God displaying many personalities.

 

this is the debate,so dont try and confuse the issue,

this is the issue.

I show Guru,Sastra and Sadhu who confirm my point

in detail ,You guys have nothing but reinterpretation

of what they say,you negate the authority to establish

some kind of vision in direct contradiction to authority, you claim your own interpretation is superior,

well,it's not,it is nothing more then ill educated

concoction,why create an antithesis of what the

acaryas say ?

 

 

 

 

"The difference is that you maintain that the pastimes in the Kingdom of God, including those in the forests of Vrindavana (both Goloka and Gokula) are simply feigned to teach."

 

thats not what i am saying,i am saying what the acaryas say,over and over,don't complicate things to try and fit your conception into an allready perfect description.

 

The lila is not feigned to teach,i don't say that,the lila

has an external reality and an internal reality,

what appears is not exactly the same as what

is factual.

 

what appears to the external vision is the lila,

Radha and the gopis appear as different people,

but internally WE can understand something that is not

known to those in the lila,that Radha expands herself

to become the various Gopis,Also Krsna and Radha

are the same person,although in the lila itself

the jivas do not know this.

 

so it's not as if the thing is fake,and only to teach,

we cannot learn from the lila itself the true nature

of the lila,i have never said that the lila itself

is not real,just that in OUR position outside of the

lila we have access to the true nature of the lila.

 

Never have i said the lila is for teaching a lesson,

Krsna's pastimes are performed in the material

world to attract people to Bhakti yoga,but I never

said the lila itself is an illusion or fake,

just that the real inner reality of the lila is different

then the external activity,this is simple to understand

and in fact we are told repeatedly that the lila is not

the same as similar looking human affairs.

 

so if you want to ignore the bona fide acaryas and shastra

on this point,if you want to see the external lila as being all in all, the final word,so be it,that is where you are at.

 

If you want to believe that God is not a single being,

not a single person manifesting different personalities

as he/she desires,go ahead,but do not make the case

that your position is the same as gaudiya siddhanta,

clearly we are told repeatedly, God is one,the personalities of Godhead are differing amounts of

qualities and attributes displayed by One person,

if you want to complicate this to mean God

actually becomes different beings that are not

all different aspects of one person,that is polytheism,

not mono theism,not gaudiya siddhanta,you are not arguing

with me, really you are arguing with the parampara.

 

If Krsna is relating to Balarama in lila that is real,

but from our standpoint outside of the influence of yogamaya we can understand that they are in fact one

and the same person,acting,for the benefit of the lila,

the residents of vraja,the jivas,are in a casual rasa

with Krsna,they are unaware of the nature of Krsna,

Baladeva,Radha,the gopis,etc, you should see through the

eyes of shastra,those jivas in lila should not,it

would create rasa bhasa,while here,if you don't see

with the vision of shastra then you are not in yogamaya,

just ignorant.

 

So in conclusion personality means persona,the attributes

of a person,

you have a personality,God has many,in fact so do you,

as the situation changes so does your personality,

so God displays one personality for Ramachandra,another for

Sitadevi,another for Nrsingadeva,another for Radha,

and another for Krsna, but they are all the same person.

 

So don't concoct some polytheistic version of gaudiya

thought that is not based on anything but

a lack of education,always we are told God is One,

All expansions and incarnations are that same supreme

personality,although varying amounts of the full

complete personality of Godhead are displayed

in different incarnations and pastimes,still

they are not different people,that idea is a concoction,

heretical.

 

If you want to concoct some kind of psuedo siddhanta

claiming that God becomes

many different distinct individual persons all sharing the same

power,then you need to understand what the acaryas say,what sastra says, then you can elevate your vision, don't

attempt to pass off concoction as being the gaudiya

standard,i have shown the position of the acaryas,

in their own words,in the words of the sastra,

you guys do not, you give us your "divinefeelings".

[Guest guest]

"In the end, I don't think it is up to us. What matters is what Krsna desires. If we can't understand how it is that He REALLY feels oceans of love for Radha, then concluding that it is all false, some sort of elaborate metaphor, may not sit well with the Lord - dismissing the love of His life and the love that He craves, as mere tutorial symbolism. "

 

no its not false,although there is symbolism,

We are told repeatedly that there is symbolic content

in the lila,not that it is all a metaphor, the lila is real

and there is symbolism in the sastric descriptions

for our understanding.

 

What is the point of sastra ?

 

Is it simply to describe the lila for our

enjoyment ?

 

No, the descriptions of lila have a

two fold purpose.

 

1- to attract the conditioned souls to Bhakti yoga,

by hearing the lila you want to participate

in the eternal blissfull pastimes,this desire to

participate will cause you to follow the path

that is required to gain admittance.

 

2- the descriptions have an external and internal

meaning, the external descriptions of the lila

itself,the pastimes themselves,are there to attract,

the sastra also gives us a deeper understanding

of the inner nature of those pastimes.

 

That deeper understanding is gaudiya siddhanta,

why are we told that to REALLY understand

Krsna's pastimes in the tenth canto of the

Bhagavatam, that FIRST you need to study the

previous teachings , why ?

 

By that study we find out that God although One

person ,displays different personalites,different

forms,different rasas.

 

With our education we can understand the inner significance

of lila, not just the outward expression.

 

Why do we need this inner understanding ?

 

Well this is the whole point of Sri Caitanyas teachings,

By learning the true nature of Krsna lila,

the true inner siddhanta of Radha Krsna, we learn

how to develop our own relationship with God.

 

If we see the external lila as all in all,then we miss

the purpose of Sri Caitanya,you might as well forget

about Sri Caitanya as being special,His contribution

is to take us inside the lila,to the heart of the matter,

to His Own heart, Sri Radha.

 

He is Krsna and Radha combined,although Radha and Krsna

are One and the same, they each have their own distinct

display of personality,One female ,One male.

 

Sri Caitanya is Male on the outside,Krsna on the outside,

Female on the inside,Radha on the inside.

 

He is teaching us the inner meaning of Krsna lila,

God on the outside ,to the external uneducated

vision is Sri Krsna, the supreme Male, the

lila is all about serving Him.

 

But Mahaprabhu says "wait,there is more,there is a deeper

understanding",in this way he goaded Sri Ramananda Raya

to go deeper and deeper and deeper into the true

nature of the divine lila of Vraja.

 

What was that ?

 

Sri Caitanya shows that,He is male on the outside,

female on the inside,God is Male to the

external vision of lila,Sri Krsna,but to the

enlightened,God is a female ,Sri Radha,

She is the inner person,Krsna is the outer,

Mahaprabhu is Krsna on the outside and Radha

internally.

 

This is the deep understanding that He brings,

Radha Dasyam, Radha is the inner identity

of God,Krsna is the external form, Radha is the

internal nature of Krsna,this is necessary to

understand in order to enter into a rasa with Sri Radha Krsna.

 

So externally Krsna lila is all about serving the

desire of Krsna,internally we are told He is

really Sri Radha,She is in charge of the lila,

it is all Her doing,She is the enjoying aspect

of Sri Krsna,and how does she enjoy ?

 

She expands the ocean of rasa through Her expansions,

the gopis and Sri Radha are all one and the same

supreme personality of godhead, through them God

is enjoying Rasa, externally it may appear that Krsna

is the enjoyer of Rasa with them, But internally

Sri Caitanya is giving us the highest most intimate

concept and connection to God,Sri Radha and the gopis,

they are the internal potency,they are the inner

enjoyers of rasa lila,It is all for their enjoyment,

Krsna is acting as their paramour,that is an example for

The Gopas,He is their leader, they are in one group,Krsna and the gopas,

the other group, Radha and the gopis, Krsna's inner

self ,his enjoying aspect is manifest as Radha and

Her expansions, they are the enjoyers of Rasa,

Krsna and the cowherd boys are what they cherish.

 

so from an uneducated vision,or the vision

of the jiva in that lila,Radha and Krsna love

each other,but Mahaprabhu has brought us the

highest,most intimate vision,Radha and the Gopis,

They are the enjoying inner person,Krsna

is there to lead the gopas,He is the central

figure in the lila,but the real rasa is

enjoyed by the gopis,they are Krsna,

Krsna is them,But we can understand what and who

is the real nature and enjoyer of that lila,

and what is the most we can do to enhance that

enjoyment.

 

[Guest guest]

1- to attract the conditioned souls to Bhakti yoga,

by hearing the lila you want to participate

in the eternal blissfull pastimes,this desire to

participate will cause you to follow the path

that is required to gain admittance.

2- the descriptions have an external and internal

meaning, the external descriptions of the lila

itself,the pastimes themselves,are there to attract,

the sastra also gives us a deeper understanding

of the inner nature of those pastimes.

••••••

there's another significance: these lilas are also without connection to our education.

 

Simply they have a reason in themselves for the inconcievable and supremely free will of enjoyement of sri krishna bhagavan..

 

he wants to do like that, and he does it with not any other external necessity and reason

 

and this gives value to the fact that the inhabitants of the spiritual world are images of krsna but also complete persons..

 

if i need only to make a show, a performance, an allegory to show something to an audience i'd be satisfacted for some reason, to build my fiancee with some very advanced robotic mechanism .. i perform my drama, my tale, my allegory with the doll, the audience understand and that's all (and if i am god i can build a very nice doll,more nice than E.T., the sharks, the dinosaurs and so on)

 

but if, in these activities there's also the desire to have a real enjoyement to relationate in many ways with a real girl. i need a real person with a degree of autonomy and freedom to enjoy the variety, the surprise, the discovering and so on..

 

only an example, with a limited significance being connected with material intelligence, language and behaviour but maybe it can give a hint

 

radha is really krsna, and radha is really radha... also to make the things more joyful and blissful for krishna.. if it would be only to instruct us, a doll would be enough, when i saw E.T. i cried like a baby

[Guest guest]

Our conception of God changes as our position

our understanding changes,the closer we get to

God our conception of God changes accordingly.

 

If you are on a ship at sea on your way home,

when you get close to land you can see a mountain

from a great distance,on that mountain is your home.

 

When you spot that mountain from sea at first it looks

like a cloud,it is from a great distance and is hard

to distinguish from clouds.

 

When we first learn of God we have a fuzzy concept

of God,we understand God from a great distance,

we have some small understanding and we use that to guide us closer.

 

as we sail closer to our mountain home it becomes

more defined,we can make out a clear outline of the

mountain,as we sail closer we can see snow at the top,

as we sail even closer we can make out trees and homes

on the mountain.

 

The closer we get to God,our conception changes,

it is no longer fuzzy ,we no longer see God

as a mysterious vague thing in the distance,

as we get closer we can understand more and more

things about God,God is a person,God has

pastimes,etc.

 

when we dock our ship and start climbing the mountain

to get home the mountain is still the same

as before, but we have gotten so close that

it is no longer a vague shape,or a large

object in the distance,we can now see people,

animals,flowers,etc

 

As you get closer to God your conception of god

changes,from a vague power to a person with

pastimes,as you get closer still these pastimes

become clearer and you can view them up close,

in full detail, in the sastra.

 

finally you come to your home,from a great distance

you could not see the home, you could see a vague

shape,then a clear outline,then trees and houses,

then people and flowers,then up close you sit in your home,

and hug your familiy and friends,they were always there,

but you couldn't see them till you walked into

the home,at a distance they were not seen.

so our conception changes as we change,when we first

have a conception of God it may be a vague fuzzy concept

of a great and powerfull mystery.

 

As we get closer we find out God is a person,

with pastimes of love,God has a human form

both male and female to enjoy pastimes.

 

As we get closer we find out we can take part

in those pastimes,the entrance to those pastimes

is the development of love and desire to serve

God as a parent,a friend, a lover.

 

As we get closer we are guided to see God as our lover,

the rasa of conjugal love as being the closest and highest possible relationship and understanding we can have.

 

We see God as a boy,and conjugal love to God as meaning

we need to become like a girl,to give the most intimate

service and relationship of love to God.

 

But then we get closer,We see God enjoys as a girl,we thought God

was a boy, and God was, until we got closer,

then we come to notice God more intimately,

God is a female.

 

As we get closer to God our conception changes to accomodate

that,we go from seeing God as a great and powerfull

mystery to seeing a beautiful young girl,we change

from obeying God as a Father,to seeing God

as our boyfriend,to finally up close and personal,

we see God as our girlfriend.

 

In this way rasa is described as refining sugar,

first the sugar cane,then the juice, then the thick

paste,then the granulated sugar,then rock candy,

successively sweeter ,rasa is understood, as we

get closer and closer,from the sugar cane to rock

candy,from Vishnu to Radha, God is always the same,

it is we who change,it is our relationsip that changes,

becoming closer,sweet,sweeter,sweetest.

[Guest guest]

 

"1- to attract the conditioned souls to Bhakti yoga,

by hearing the lila you want to participate

in the eternal blissfull pastimes,this desire to

participate will cause you to follow the path

that is required to gain admittance.

2- the descriptions have an external and internal

meaning, the external descriptions of the lila

itself,the pastimes themselves,are there to attract,

the sastra also gives us a deeper understanding

of the inner nature of those pastimes.

••••••

there's another significance: these lilas are also without connection to our education.

 

Simply they have a reason in themselves for the inconcievable and supremely free will of enjoyement of sri krishna bhagavan..

 

you missed the point entirely,

i wasn't describing lila,

i first said

 

 

 

What is the point of sastra ?

 

Is it simply to describe the lila for our

enjoyment ?

 

No, the "descriptions of lila" have a

two fold purpose.

[gHari 0]

"still there is only one supreme being.

 

If you think that person is interested in playing games

with him/her self, then i guess

you are not ready for the obvious truth.

 

[...]

 

There is not other person in their rasa,

Krishna cannot have rasa with Radha, she is

the same person in different dress.

 

[...]

 

Can you have rasa with yourself ?

would you want to try ?

Why do you think God does ?

 

[...]

 

Do not think that god is a weirdo, wanting to play

make believe with him/herself, that is not attractive

to God,it is only a display.

 

[...] <font color="blue">For whom is that display? Who can see into the bushes in the spiritual realm as Krsna draws dolphins on Radharani's form?</font>

 

 

then the rasa described between them takes on a different

meaning, it is telling how Radha and the gopis are feeling

towards the gopas, what their rasa is, what is described

as the external rasa between Radha ,Krishna and the gopis, is meant to teach the rasa between Radha ,the gopis(her expansions) and the gopas, the truth is understood

only when you understand first that Radha and Krishna

are identical, no difference, then and only then

can the rest be properly understood and be beneficial

for you."

 

<font color="blue">Who is being taught "the rasa between Radha ,the gopis(her expansions) and the gopas"? From the last two paragraphs are we to conclude the Radha "is a weirdo, wanting to play make believe with" Herself?</font>

 

From <a href=http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hinduism&Number=40389&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=all&vc=1>this thread.</a>

 

[Guest guest]

i do not understand why, at least theoretically, it is so difficult for you to concile the two aspects of "god is always the same..one" and "god is always different.. various"....

 

it seems to me very human, if i am one i cannot be different and all my personalities are simply masks, displays, clothes worn by the same individual.....

 

and if i see two individuals they cannot be one, they are without doubts two and different without real connection between their existence...

 

but god, being omnipotent can go beyond these human limits and he can be really one and simultaneously really two, really three, really 2000, really infinite in a way completely inconceivable for us, WHITOUT LOSING HIS constitutional and supreme ONENESS

 

not accepting this, there's a new flavor coming out (for me of course) from you last (beautiful) message, that the variety of krsna is inside our mind and changes according some developing of ideas that we call advancement..

 

add that at the end we'll discover that if the persons surrounding krsna are mere images, that the various relationships with krsna are also images and fantasies, also the personality of krsna (feet, legs, hands, face, eyes, hairs, behaviour, tastes etc.) is a mere image interchangeable as our consciousness changes.

 

in the lilas there's not sometimes a clear supremacy of sri krsna, sometimes radha acts as a lord to krishna, sometimes yasodamata does like that... so, as a paradox, if the subordinate radha, yasoda, nanda, balarama etc. do not live a real life, why krsna, that sometimes plays the subordinate role, is real? maybe also his existence is an image, a role, a drama put on by a reality that's beyond yasodamata, radharani and even krsna..... the brahman (who does like that to impart lessons to humans)

 

hare krishna

 

[Guest guest]

these things have allready been covered,

go back to the Baladeva Vidybhusana post,

he explains how the rasa between Krsna and

Radha is the same as Krsna looking into a mirror,

he then explains why they display rasa

since they are one person,

he answers this question directly,

since Radha and Krsna are one person

he asks,how can there be real love

between them.

 

He explains ,it is because of the statement,

they have rasa because the sastra says so,

he goes onto explain even though Krsna

is himself the goddess of fortune,still

he engages in Rasa with Himself as the goddess ,

their rasa is for the benefit of the lila,

he answers all these questions directly.

 

If you still reject his answers,

good luck with.

 

[Guest guest]

yasasvini yasogamya

yasodananana-vallabha

damodara-priya gopi

gopananda-kari tatha

-

 

She is famous (yasasvini and yasogamya), the beloved of Yasoda's son (yasodananana-vallabha), dear to Lord Damodara (damodara-priya), a cowherd girl (gopi), and the giver of happiness to the gopas (gopananda-kari).

 

ekanga sarvaga sevya

brahma-patni sarasvati

rasa-priya rasa-gamya

rasadhisthatr-devata

-

 

She has one form (ekanga). She is all-pervading (sarvaga), the supreme object of worship (sevya), Brahma's wife (brahma-patni), Goddess Sarasvati (sarasvati), fond of the rasa dance (rasa-priya), the girl Lord Krsna approaches in the rasa dance (rasa-gamya), and the predominating Deity of the rasa dance (rasadhisthatr-devata).

 

rasika rasikananda

svayam rasesvari para

rasa-mandala-madhyastha

rasa-mandala-sobhita

-

 

She enjoys the transcendental mellows (rasika) and tastes the bliss of the transcendental mellows (rasikananda). She is the queen of the rasa dance (svayam rasesvari), transcendental (para), the girl who stays in the middle of the rasa dance circle (rasa-mandala-madhyastha), and the girl who beautifies the rasa dance circle (rasa-mandala-sobhita).

 

prakrtih sambhu-kanta ca

sadasiva-manohara

ksut pipasa daya nidra

bhrantih srantih ksamakula

-

 

She is the goddess of the material nature (prakrti), and the beautiful wife of Lord Siva (sambhu-kanta and sadasiva-manohara). She is hunger (ksut), thirst (pipasa), mercy (daya), sleep (nidra), bewilderment (bhranti), exhaustion (sranti), and patience (ksamakula).

 

vadhu-rupa gopa-patni

bharati siddha-yogini

satya-rupa nitya-rupa

nityangi nitya-gehini

-

 

She is a young girl (vadhu-rupa), the wife of a gopa (gopa-patni), the goddess of eloquence (bharati), and perfect in the science of yoga (siddha-yogini). Her form is eternal (satya-rupa, nitya-rupa, and nityangi), and She is Lord Krsna's wife eternally (nitya-gehini).

 

sthana-datri tatha dhatri

maha-laksmih svayam-prabha

sindhu-kanya sthana-datri

dvaraka-vasini tatha

-

 

She gives Her devotees their homes (sthana-datri). She is the mother (dhatri), Goddess Maha-Laksmi (maha-laksmi), self-effulgent (svayam-prabha), the daughter of the milk ocean (sindhu-kanya), and she who resides in Dvaraka (dvaraka-vasini).

 

 

niramaya saumya-datri

tatha madana-mohini

ekanamsa siva ksema

durga durgati-nasini

-

 

She is free from all disease (niramaya), the most gentle, kind, and generous (saumya-datri), more charming than Kamadeva (madana-mohini), one without a second (eka and anamsa), the wife of Lord Siva (siva and durga), happiness and auspiciousness personified (ksema), and the person who destroys all calamities (durgati-nasini).

 

 

isvari sarva-vandya ca

gopaniya subhankari

palini sarva-bhutanam

tatha kamanga-harini

-

 

She is the supreme controller (isvari), worshiped by all (sarva-vandya), reclusive (gopaniya), the giver of auspiciousness (subhankari), the protectress of all living entities (palini sarva-bhutanam), and the wife of Lord Siva who destroyed Kamadeva's body (kamanga-harini).

 

 

 

 

sulaksmana mitravinda

kalindi jahnu-kanyka

paripurna purnatara

tatha haimavati gatih

-

 

She is Sulaksmana (sulaksmana), Mitravinda (mitravinda), Kalindi (kalindi), Jahnavi (jahnu-kanyka), most perfect (paripurna and purnatara), Goddess Parvati (haimavati), and the supreme goal of life (gati).

 

apurva brahma-rupa ca

brahmanda-paripalini

brahmanda-bhanda-madbyastha

brahmanda-bhanda-rupini

-

 

She is unprecedented (apurva), spiritual (brahma-rupa), the protectress of the universe (brahmanda-paripalini), the goddess who enters the material universe (brahmanda-bhanda-madbyastha), the goddess who Herself is the material universe (brahmanda-bhanda-rupini).

 

anda-rupanda-madhyastha

tathanda-paripalini

anda-bahyanda-samhartri

siva-brahma-hari-priya

-

 

She is the goddess who is the material universe (anda-rupa), the goddess who has entered the material universe (anda-madhyastha), the protectress of the material universe (anda-paripalini), the goddess who is beyond the material universe (anda-bahya), the destroyer of the material universe (anda-samhartri), and she who is dear to Siva, Brahma, and Visnu (siva-brahma-hari-priya).

 

 

maha-visnu-priya kalpa-

vrksa-rupa nirantara

sara-bhuta sthira gauri

gaurangi sasi-sekhara

-

 

She is Lord Maha-Visnu's beloved (maha-visnu-priya), a kalpa-vrksa tree (kalpa-vrksa-rupa), eternal (nirantara and sthira), the best (sara-bhuta), fair (gauri and gaurangi), and Lord Siva's wife (sasi-sekhara).

 

 

sri-rupa sri-hara srida

sri-kama sri-svarupini

sridamananda-datri ca

sridamesvara-vallabha

-

 

She is the form of beauty (sri-rupa and sri-svarupini), the remover of beauty (sri-hara), the giver of beauty (srida), the desire for beauty (sri-kama), the giver of bliss to Sridama (sridamananda-datri), and dear to Sridama's master (sridamesvara-vallabha).

 

trailokya-mata jagatam

adhisthatri priyambika

hara-kanta hara-rata

harananda-pradayini

-

 

She is the mother of the three worlds (trailokya-mata), the predominating Deity of the universes (jagatam adhisthatri), the beloved (priya), the mother (ambika), the beloved of Lord Siva (hara-kanta and hara-rata), and She who gives bliss to Lord Siva (harananda-pradayini).

 

hara-patni hara-prita

hara-tosana-tatpara

haresvari rama-rata

rama ramesvari rama

-

 

She is Lord Siva's wife (hara-patni), Lord Siva's beloved (hara-prita), devoted to pleasing Lord Siva (hara-tosana-tatpara), Lord Siva's queen (haresvari), Lord Rama's beloved (rama-rata and rama), and Lord Rama's queen (ramesvari).

 

 

daksa-kanya deva-mata

manda-lajja hares tanuh

vrndaranya-priya vrnda

vrndavana-vilasini

-

 

She is Daksa's daughter (daksa-kanya), the demigods' mother (deva-mata), bold (manda-lajja), Lord Hari's own transcendental form (hares tanuh), fond of Vrndavana (vrndaranya-priya), goddess Vrnda (vrnda), and the girl who enjoys pastimes in Vrndavana (vrndavana-vilasini).

 

syamala citra-lekha ca

tatha bhuvana-mohini

su-gopi gopa-vanita

gopa-rajya-prada subha

-

 

She is Lord Krsna's beloved (syamala), wonderfully beautiful (citra-lekha), the enchantress of the three worlds (bhuvana-mohini), a beautiful gopi (su-gopi and gopa-vanita), she who gives a kingdom to the gopas (gopa-rajya-prada), and beautiful (subha).

 

 

seva-sevya siva ksema

tatha ksema-kari vadhuh

yadavendra-vadhuh sevya

siva-bhakta sivanvita

-

 

She should be served with devotion (seva-sevya). She is Lord Siva's beloved (siva). She is patience (ksema), patient (ksema-kari), a beautiful girl (vadhu), the wife of the Yadavas' king (yadavendra-vadhu), the object of devotional service (sevya), a great devotee of Lord Siva (siva-bhakta), and Lord Siva's companion (sivanvita).

 

nilambara-vidhatri ca

nilakantha-priya tatha

bhagini bhagini bhogya

krsna-bhogya bhagesvari

-

 

She is dressed in blue garments (nilambara-vidhatri). She is Lord Siva's beloved (nilakantha-priya). She is beautiful (bhagini, bhagini, and bhogya), Lord Krsna's happiness (krsna-bhogya), and the queen of transcendental opulences (bhagesvari).

 

vatsala kausala kala

karunarnava-rupini

svarga-laksmir bhumi-

laksmir draupadi pandava-priya

-

 

She is affectionate (vatsala), expert (kausala), beautiful (kala), and an ocean of mercy (karunarnava-rupini). She is heavenly opulence (svarga-laksmi) and earthly opulence (bhumi-laksmi). She is Draupadi (draupadi), who is dear to the Pandavas (pandava-priya).

 

 

 

 

 

[gHari 0]

then why lila at all?

[Guest guest]

i dont know what you mean,

can you clarify ?

[gHari 0]

It appears that only He and the jivas exist, although they too are part of His identity. Krsna would obviously not enjoy playing with pretend entities. Is lila only to interact with us in the Kingdom since we have attachments and cannot know His true self.

 

Why would He bother pretending to appear in so many forms? For whose benefit is this?

 

For whom is the display of rasa?

 

Why can't Krsna enjoy without Radha (why did They separate eternally to enjoy)?

 

 

[gHari 0]

Our position is that Sri Krsna manifests Himself in many personalities for His pleasure. The question is: can these different peronalities (Radha and Krsna are described as "separate entities" in a Brahma-samhita purport) really interact with one another.

 

Nothing polytheistic, simply that many candles are lit by the one Primal candle. You simply cloud the issue by being so rude.

[Guest guest]

in vraja it's all about rasa, casual love,

without the concept of Krsna's divinity,or Radha's

divinity,or the gopis's divinity,If they were aware

of the truth then the rasa God wants to enjoy,

pure love based on not His/Her Being God, but pure love

based on affection alone,would not be possible.

 

If the jivas in the lila were aware of God as their

friend or lover then they would not be able

to be in the rasa God wants from them.

 

They would base all of their emotions and interactions

with the knowlege of God ,this is not what Vraja

is for, Vraja is for God to be one of us,a person

you can love purely because of that persons

personality,not because He or She is God,

that knowledge lessens the rasa God wants in that

place.

 

So Vraja lila is Radha Krsna's home life,

where they can live without everyone toadying

up to them because they are God,instead

it is all about intimate flavors of pure

love unadultered by knowledge of Radha

or Krsna's divinity.

 

Yes ,there is only One God,all the rest are us,

It's not that God lacks relationships with

jivas who are in full knowledge of His/Her

divinity,Shiva for example,Durga is the

supreme lord and He is fully aware of that.

[Guest guest]

Our position is that Sri Krsna manifests Himself in many personalities for His pleasure.

 

Nothing polytheistic, simply that many candles are lit by the one Primal candle. You simply cloud the issue by being so rude.

 

well thats not true, both of you at one time or another

or constantly like yasodanandana claim God is many

individual distinct people,all one and different,

if i seem rude,sorry,but sometimes we need to be

shaken when we are sleeping,in the end,

Isvara parama Krsna.

[gHari 0]

Krsna pretends to be less than He is in a fantasy world called Vraja? We can never actually know Him?

[Guest guest]

"Although the Lord Absolute and His potency are one and the self-same existence, still They exist eternally as separate entities, as RAdhA and KRSNa."

 

clearly as everywhere else i have shown,

we see them described as one and the self same,

but they have manifested as seperate people.

 

this means the same as all the other references,

one person,different forms,different entities,

different personalities, it's all the same

meaning.

 

One God,many incarnations,expansions,plenery portions,

all the same One God,at the same time ALL of the

aforementioned expansions etc,are eternally

manifest as seperate entities,females as the goddess' of fortunes,

and males as the various Gods,Narayana,Rama,Krsna etc.

 

All are one and the self same supreme person,

all are eternally seperate entities,with their

own pastimes,paraphenalia,associates etc.

 

This shouldn't be misconstrued to mean they are

all not the self same person,they are One and the

same,just displaying various forms and attributes.

 

One God,Many forms,Not many Gods.

[Guest guest]

Krsna pretends to be less than He is in a fantasy world called Vraja? We can never actually know Him?

 

you can know God if and only God desires,

that is your position,

 

Maybe you should take some time to read

the sastra,these are very basic concepts

of Krsna lila.

 

Krsna in Vraja lila does not allow

the residents to know him in truth,

that would create rasa bhasa.

 

anyways,these things have been discussed,go back

to previous posts if your questions are

going to be repetitive.

[Guest guest]

what you are saying simply is not true, i have not a polytheistic idea of god, i simply say that the "images", "mirrors", "candles" do not miss autonomy, freedom and individuality

 

it is simply a different opinion on what you call personality when you say "the same krishna who displays different personalities"

 

your behaving is rude, even if i do not care, not being myself an example of good behaviour, and it is rude because judging in a gross way the position of who is disussing with you, it seems that you are more interested to win a game than to help people to advance in krsna consciousness avoiding misconceptions

 

so i may be surely wrong, but there's not polytheism, my idea is much more subtle than saying that there's many personalities sharing the quality to be god

 

i have spoken of this subject this evening with some devotees taking some pizza in my home, some of them experienced and advanced (and basically agreeing with my "in the middle" position) and others agreeing in the same way and saying: "this shiva is simply a mayavadi"

 

and it is too gross and rude... exactly as when you say that we are expressing polytheistic ideas, exactly as in the guru discussion when you basically said to me that i wanted to make a GOD of te spiritual master

 

the subtlety is required also to criticize others, otherwise no one learns anything

 

[Guest guest]

••because in the spiritual realm the concepts, the energies are not abstract.. so the hladini shakti is an internal energy of krishna and a complete separate individual with a full real autonomy and freedom

 

this has been your basic position,this is polytheism,

maybe not polytheism like the mormons who believe

there are many gods each with his own power,

but still you are speaking polytheism.

 

it isn't rude of me to say this,it is factual.

 

your position and gharis has been that the various

visnu tattva are one and different,one power

different people,Radha and Krsna sharing visnu

tattva, one being,distinct people.

 

you say all them are individuals,at the same time

one,this is not gaudiya thought

 

that is a type of polytheism, gaudiya siddhanta

as Baladeva Vidyabhusana says;

 

"As a vaidürya jewel manifests many different colors, so the

Supreme Lord manifests many different forms. Each of these forms

is the same perfect, complete, and pure Supreme Lord. In some

forms the Lord displays all His qualities, and other forms the

Lord does not display all His qualities. Therefore a wise devotee

may meditate on all the Lord qualities, as described in the

scriptures, as being present in the particular form of the Lord

that is chosen for worship".

 

 

"Both Lord Hari and His associates are the same persons in

both previous and subsequent actions. Why is that? The sütra

explains: "sarväbhedäd" because of complete non-

difference. This means that because there is no difference

in Their personalities, the same Lord Hari and the same associates present in the previous actions are also present in the subsequent actions. That Lord Hari remains one even though He

expands into many forms is confirmed in the Gopäla-täpané

Upaniñad in these words:

 

eko 'pi san bahudhä yo 'vabhäti

 

"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."

 

Also, in the Småti-sästra it is said:

 

ekäneka-svarüpäya

 

"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."

This is also true of the Lord's liberated associates, who remain one even though they appear in many forms."

 

 

"The forms of the Supreme Lord are undivided. They

are all full of eternity, knowledge, infinity, and bliss.

 

In this way it is said that although the Lord's forms

present a very wonderful variety, still They are all one in

essence. Although this truth was also described in sütra 3.2.14,

the merciful teacher of Vedänta repeats the same teaching so this very difficult topic may be clearly understood."