Radharani: Another Stupid Question

[ancient_paztriot 0]

Shiva, gHari, and others, Read replies above. Still doesn't explain the reciprocation.

 

I agree with the general nature of this thread in terms of oneness, but I still think (personally) that Radha is an individual just like you and me. Simultaneous one and difference…

 

You don't reciprocate between yourself. Do you?

 

We are one and the same! Why can't Radha be similar… like Balarama or Visnu or even something more?

 

(Don't really want to hear different) (One with Govindaram here).

 

 

[gHari 0]

Brahma-Samhita 5.37<blockquote><center><font color=red>Ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhAvitAbhis

tAbhir ya eva nija-rUpatayA kalAbhiH

goloka eva nivasaty akhilAtma-bhUto

govindam Adi-puruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi

</center>

Ananda--bliss; cit--and knowledge; maya--consisting of; rasa--mellows; prati--every second; bhAvitAbhiH--who are engrossed with; tAbhiH--with those; yaH--who; eva--certainly; nija-rUpatayA--with His own form; kalAbhiH--who are parts of portions of His pleasure potency; goloke--in Goloka VRndAvana; eva--certainly; nivasati--resides; akhila-Atma--as the soul of all; bhUtaH--who exists; govindam--Govinda; Adi-puruSam--the original personality; tam--Him; aham--I; bhajAmi--worship.

</font>

I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, residing in His own realm, Goloka, with RAdhA, resembling His own spiritual figure, the embodiment of the ecstatic potency possessed of the sixty-four artistic activities, in the company of Her confidantes [sakhIs], embodiments of the extensions of Her bodily form, permeated and vitalized by His ever-blissful spiritual rasa.

 

PURPORT

<font color=blue>Although the Lord Absolute and His potency are one and the self-same existence, still They exist eternally as separate entities, as RAdhA and KRSNa.</font> In both the ecstatic energy and the transcendental Lord KRSNa, there exists zRGgAra-rasa (amorous love) whose quality is inconceivable. The vibhAva (extension) of that rasa (mellow quality) is twofold, viz., Alambana (prop) and uddIpana (stimulation). Of these Alambana is twofold, viz., Azraya (supported) and viSaya (supporter). Azraya signifies RAdhikA Herself and the extensions of Her own form and viSaya means KRSNa Himself. KRSNa is Govinda, Lord of Goloka. The gopIs are the facsimile Azraya of that rasa. With them KRSNa indulges in eternal pastimes in Goloka. Nija-rUpatayA means "with the attributes manifested from the ecstatic energy." The sixty-four activities in fine arts and crafts are the following: (1) gIta--art of singing. (2) vAdya--art of playing on musical instruments. (3) nRtya--art of dancing. (4) nATya--art of theatricals. (5) Alekhya--art of painting. (6) vizeSakacchedya--art of painting the face and body with colored unguents and cosmetics. (7) taNDula-kusuma-balI-vikAra--art of preparing offerings from rice and flowers. (8) puSpAstaraNa--art of making a covering of flowers for a bed. (9) dazana-vasanAGga-rAga--art of applying preparations for cleansing the teeth, cloths and painting the body. (10) maNi-bhUmikA-karma--art of making the groundwork of jewels. (11) zayyA-racana--art of covering the bed. (12) udaka-vAdya--art of playing on music in water. (13) udaka-ghAta--art of splashing with water. (14) citra-yoga--art of practically applying an admixture of colors. (15) mAlya-grathana-vikalpa--art of designing a preparation of wreaths. (16) zekharApIDa-yojana--art of practically setting the coronet on the head. (17) nepathya-yoga--art of practically dressing in the tiring room. (18) karNapAtra-bhaGga--art of decorating the tragus of the ear. (19) sugandha-yukti--art of practical application of aromatics. (20) bhUSaNa-yojana--art of applying or setting ornaments. (21) aindra-jAla--art of jugglery. (22) kaucumAra--a kind of art. (23) hasta-lAghava--art of sleight of hand. (24) citra-zAkApUpa-bhakSya-vikAra-kriyA--art of preparing varieties of salad, bread, cake and delicious food. (25) pAnaka-rasa-rAgAsava-yojana--art of practically preparing palatable drinks and tinging draughts with red color. (26) sUcI-vAya-karma--art of needleworks and weaving. (27) sUtra-krIDA--art of playing with thread. (28) vINA-Damuraka-vAdya--art of playing on lute and small x-shaped drum. (29) prahelikA--art of making and solving riddles. (29-a) pratimAlA--art of caping or reciting verse for verse as a trial for memory or skill. (30) durvacaka-yoga--art of practicing language difficult to be answered by others. (31) pustaka-vAcana--art of reciting books. (32) nATikAkhyAyikA-darzana--art of enacting short plays and anecdotes. (33) kAvya-samasyA-pUraNa--art of solving enigmatic verses. (34) paTTikA-vetra-bANa-vikalpa--art of designing preparation of shield, cane and arrows. (35) tarku-karma--art of spinning by spindle. (36) takSaNa--art of carpentry. (37) vAstu-vidyA--art of engineering. (38) raupya-ratna-parIkSA--art of testing silver and jewels. (39) dhAtu-vAda--art of metallurgy. (40) maNi-rAga jJAna--art of tinging jewels. (41) Akara jJAna--art of mineralogy. (42) vRkSAyur-veda-yoga--art of practicing medicine or medical treatment, by herbs. (43) meSa-kukkuTa-lAvaka-yuddha-vidhi--art of knowing the mode of fighting of lambs, cocks and birds. (44) zuka-zArikA-prapAlana (pralApana)?--art of maintaining or knowing conversation between male and female cockatoos. (45) utsAdana--art of healing or cleaning a person with perfumes. (46) keza-mArjana-kauzala--art of combing hair. (47) akSara-muSTikA-kathana--art of talking with letters and fingers. (48) mlecchita-kutarka-vikalpa--art of fabricating barbarous or foreign sophistry. (49) deza-bhASA-jJAna--art of knowing provincial dialects. (50) puSpa-zakaTikA-nirmiti-jJAna--art of knowing prediction by heavenly voice or knowing preparation of toy carts by flowers. (51) yantra-mAtRkA--art of mechanics. (52) dhAraNa-mAtRkA--art of the use of amulets. (53) samvAcya--art of conversation. (54) mAnasI kAvya-kriyA--art of composing verse mentally. (55) kriyA-vikalpa--art of designing a literary work or a medical remedy. (56) chalitaka-yoga--art of practicing as a builder of shrines called after him. (57) abhidhAna-koSa-cchando-jJAna--art of the use of lexicography and meters. (58) vastra-gopana--art of concealment of cloths. (59) dyUta-vizeSa--art of knowing specific gambling. (60) AkarSa-krIDA--art of playing with dice or magnet. (61) bAlaka-krIDanaka--art of using children's toys. (62) vainAyikI vidyA--art of enforcing discipline. (63) vaijayikI vidyA--art of gaining victory. (64) vaitAlikI vidyA--art of awakening master with music at dawn.

 

All these arts manifesting their own eternal forms are ever visible in the region of Goloka as the ingredients of rasa; and, in the mundane sphere, they have been unstintedly exhibited in the pastimes of Vraja by the spiritual (cit) potency. YogamAyA. So SrI RUpa says, sadAnantaiH... santi tAH, i.e., KRSNa is ever manifest in His beauty with His infinite pastimes in Goloka. Sometimes the variant manifestation of those pastimes becomes visible on the mundane plane. SrI Hari, the Supreme Lord, also manifests His pastimes of birth, etc., accompanied by all His paraphernalia. The divine sportive potency fills the hearts of His paraphernalia with appropriate spiritual sentiments in conformity with the will of KRSNa. Those pastimes that manifest themselves on the mundane plane, are His visible pastimes. All those very pastimes exist in their nonvisible form in Goloka beyond the ken of mundane knowledge. In His visible pastimes KRSNa sojourns in Gokula, MathurA and DvArakA. Those pastimes that are nonvisible in those three places, are visible in their spiritual sites of VRndAvana.

 

From the conclusions just stated it is clear that there is no distinction between the visible and nonvisible pastimes. The apostle JIva GosvAmI in his commentary on this zloka as well as in the gloss of Ujjvala-nIlamaNi and in KRSNa-sandarbha remarks that "the visible pastimes of KRSNa are the creation of His cit (spiritual) potency. Being in conjunction with the reference to mundane function they exhibit certain features which seem to be true by the influence of the limiting potency (MAyA); but these cannot exist in the transcendental reality. The destruction of demons, illicit paramourship, birth, etc., are examples of this peculiarity. The gopIs are the extensions of the ecstatic energy of KRSNa, and so are exceptionally His own. How can there be illicit connection in their case? The illicit mistress-ship of the gopIs found in His visible pastime, is but the mundane reflection of the transcendental reality." The hidden meaning underlying the words of SrI JIva GosvAmI, when it is made explicit, will leave no doubt in the minds of the readers. SrI JIva GosvAmI is our preacher of transcendental truth. So he is always under the influence of SrI RUpa and SanAtana. Moreover in the pastimes of KRSNa SrI JIva is one of the maJjarIs. So he is conversant with all transcendental realities.

 

There are some who, being unable to understand the drift of his statements, give meanings of their own invention and indulge in useless controversies. SrI RUpa and SanAtana say that there is no real and essential distinction between the lIlAs visible and nonvisible, the only distinction lies in this that one is manifest in the mundane sphere whereas the other is not so. In the supermundane manifestation there is absolute purity in the seer and the seen. A particularly fortunate person when he is favored by KRSNa, can shake off worldly shackles and connections, enter the transcendental region after attaining the realized taste of the varieties of rasa that is available during the period of novitiate. Only such a person can have a view and taste of the perfect and absolutely pure lIlA of Goloka. Such receptive natures are rarely to be found. He, who exists in the mundane sphere, can also realize the taste of cid-rasa by the grace of KRSNa by being enabled to attain the realized state of service. Such a person can have a view of the pastimes of Goloka manifested in the mundane lIlA of Gokula. There is certainly a difference between these two classes of eligible seekers of the truth. Until one attains the perfectly transcendental stage he must be hampered by his lingering limitations, in his vision of the pastimes of Goloka. Again, the vision of the transcendental reality varies according to the degree of self-realization. The vision of Goloka must also vary accordingly.

 

It is only those fettered souls who are excessively addicted to worldliness that are devoid of the devotional eye. Of them some are enmeshed by the variegatedness of the deluding energy while others aspire after self-annihilation under the influence of centrifugal knowledge. Though they might have a view of the mundanely manifested pastimes of the Supreme Lord, they can have only a material conception of those visible pastimes, this conception being devoid of transcendental reality. Hence the realization of Goloka appears in proportion to eligibility due to the degree of one's self-realization. The underlying principle is this, that, though Gokula is as holy and free from dross as Goloka, still it is manifested on the mundane plane by the influence of the cit potency. YogamAyA. In visible and nonvisible matters of transcendental regions there is no impurity. contamination and imperfection inherent in the world of limitation; only there is some difference in the matter of realization in proportion to the self-realization of the seekers after the Absolute. Impurity. unwholesomeness, foreign elements, illusion, nescience, unholiness, utter inadequacy. insignificance, grossness--these appertain to the eye, intellect, mind and ego stultified by the material nature of conditioned souls; they have nothing to do with the essential nature of transcendence. The more one is free from these blots the more is one capable of realizing the unqualified Absolute. The truth who has been revealed by the scriptures, is free from dross. But the realizations of the seekers of the knowledge of these realities, are with or without flaw in accordance with the degree of their individual realization.

 

Those sixty-four arts that have been enumerated above, do in reality exist unstintedly only in Goloka. Unwholesomeness, insignificance, grossness are found in those arts in accordance with the degree of self-realization on the part of aspirants after the knowledge of the Absolute. According to SrIla RUpa and SrIla SanAtana all those pastimes, that have been visible in Gokula, exist in all purity and free from all tinge of limitation in Goloka. So transcendental autocratic paramourship also exists in Goloka in inconceivable purity, judged by the same standard and reasoning. All manifestation by the cit potency. YogamAyA, are pure. So, as the above paramourship is the creation of YogamAyA, it is necessarily free from all contamination, and appertains to the absolute reality.

 

Let us pause to consider what the absolute reality is in Himself. SrI RUpa GosvAmI says, pUrvokta-... sArataH. In regard to these zlokas SrIpAda JIva GosvAmI after mature deliberation has established the transcendental paramourship as vibhrama-vilAsa, something seemingly different from what it appears to be; such are the pastimes of birth, etc., accomplished by YogamAyA.

 

By the explanation tathApi... vraja-vanitAnAm, SrIla JIva GosvAmI has expressed his profound implication. Joyous pastimes by the medium of seeming error, vibhrama-vilAsa, as the contrivance of YogamAyA, has also been admitted in the concluding statements of RUpa and SanAtana. Still, since SrIpAda JIva GosvAmI has established the identity of Goloka with Gokula, it must be admitted that there is transcendental reality underlying all the pastimes of Gokula. A husband is one who binds oneself in wedlock with a girl, while a paramour is one who, in order to win another's wife's love by means of love, crosses the conventions of morality. by the impulse of the sentiment that regards her love as the be-all and end-all of existence. In Goloka there is no such function at all as that of the nuptial relationship. Hence there is no husbandhood characterized by such connection. On the other hand since the gopIs, who are self-supported real entities are not tied to anybody else in wedlock, they cannot also have the state of concubinage. There can also be no separate entities in the forms of svakIya (conjugal) and parakIya (adulterous) states. In the visible pastimes on the mundane plane the function in the form of the nuptial relationship is found to exist. KRSNa is beyond the scope of that function. Hence the said function of the circle of all-love is contrived by YogamAyA. KRSNa tastes the transcendental rasa akin to paramourship by overstepping that function. This pastime of going beyond the pale of the apparent moral function manifested by YogamAyA, is, however, also observable only on the mundane plane by the eye that is enwrapped by the mundane covering; but there is really no such levity in the pastimes of KRSNa. The rasa of paramourship is certainly the extracted essence of all the rasas. If it be said that it does not exist in Goloka, it would be highly deprecatory to Goloka. It is not the fact that there is no supremely wholesome tasting of rasa in the supremely excellent realm of Goloka. KRSNa, the fountainhead of all avatAras. tastes the same in a distinct form in Goloka and in another distinct form in Gokula. Therefore, in spite of the seeming appearance, to the mundane eye, of outstepping the bounds of the legitimate function by the form of paramourship, there must be present the truth of it in some form even in Goloka. AtmArAmo 'py arIramat, Atmany avaruddha-saurataH, reme vraja-sundarIbhir yathArbhakaH pratibimba-vibhramaH and other texts of the scriptures go to show that self-delightedness is the essential distinctive quality of KRSNa Himself. KRSNa in His majestic cit realm causes the manifestation of His own cit potency as LakSmI and enjoys her as His own wedded consort. As this feeling of wedded consorthood preponderates there, rasa expands in a wholesome form only up to the state of servanthood (dAsya-rasa). But in Goloka He divides up His cit potency into thousands of gopIs and eternally engages in amorous pastimes with them by forgetting the sentiments of ownership. By the sentiments of ownership there cannot be the extreme inaccessibility of the rasa. So the gopIs have naturally. from eternity. the innate sentiment of being others' wedded wives. KRSNa too in response to that sentiment, by assuming the reciprocal sentiment of paramourship, performs the rAsa and the other amorous pastimes with the aid of the flute, His favorite cher ami. Goloka is the transcendental seat of eternally self-realized rasa, beyond limited conception. Hence in Goloka there is realization of the sentimental assumption of the rasa of paramourship.

 

Again such is the nature of the principle of the majesty that in the realm of VaikuNTha there is no rasa of parental affection towards the source of all avatAras. But in Goloka, the seat of all superexcellent deliciousness, there is no more than the original sentimental egoistic assumption of the same rasa. There Nanda and YazodA are visibly present, but there is no occurrence of birth. For want of the occurrence of birth the assumed egoistic sentiment of parental affection of Nanda and YazodA has no foundation in the actual existence of such entities as father and mother, but it is of the nature of sentimental assumption on their parts, cf. jayati jana-nivAso devakI-janma-vAdaH, etc. For the purpose of the realization of the rasa the assumed egoistic sentiment is, however, eternal. In the rasa of amorous love if the corresponding egoistic sentiments of concubinage and paramourship be mere eternal assumptions there is nothing to blame in them and it also does not go against the scriptures. When those transcendental entities of Goloka becomes manifest in Vraja then those two egoistic sentiments become somewhat more palpable to the mundane view in the phenomenal world and there comes to be this much difference only. In the rasa of parental affection the sentiments of Nanda and YazodA that they are parents becomes manifest in the more tangible form in the pastimes of birth etc., and in the amorous rasa the corresponding sentiments of concubinage in the respective gopIs become manifest in the forms of their marriages with Abhimanyu, Govardhana, etc. In reality there is no such separate entity as husbandhood of the gopIs either in Goloka or in Gokula. Hence the zAstras declare that there is no sexual union of the gopIs with their husbands. It is also for the same reason that the authorized teacher of the principle of rasa, SrI RUpa, writes that in the transcendental amorous rasa the hero is of two different types, viz., the wedded husband and the paramour--patiz copapatiz ceti prabhedAv iha vizrutAv iti. SrI JIva, in his commentary by his words patiH pura-vanitAnAM dvitIyo vraja-vanitAnAm, acknowledges the eternal paramourship of KRSNa in Goloka and Gokula and the husbandhood of KRSNa in VaikuNTha and DvArakA etc. In the Lord of Goloka and the Lord of Gokula the character of paramourship is found in its complete form. KRSNa's deliberate overstepping of His own quality of self-delightedness is caused by the desire of union with another's wedded wife. The state of being another's wedded wife is nothing but the corresponding assumed sentiment on the part of the gopIs. In reality they have no husbands with independent and separate existence; still their very egoistic sentiment makes them have the nature of the wedded wives of others. So all the characteristics, viz., that "desire makes the paramour overstep the bounds of duty." etc., are eternally present in the seat of all "deliciousness." In Vraja that very thing reveals itself, to an extent, in a form more tangible to persons with mundane eyes.

 

So in Goloka there is inconceivable distinction and nondistinction between the rasas analogous to mundane concubineship and wifehood. It may be said with equal truth that there is no distinction in Goloka between the two as also that there is such distinction. The essence of paramourship is the cessation of ownership and the abeyance of ownership is the enjoyment of His own cit potency in the shape of abeyance of paramourship or enjoyment without the sanction of wedlock. The conjunction of the two exists there as one rasa accommodating both varieties. In Gokula it is really the same with the difference that it produces a different impression on observers belonging to the mundane plane. In Govinda, the hero of Goloka, there exist both husbandhood and paramourship above all piety and impiety and free from all grossness. Such is also the case with the hero of Gokula although there is a distinction in realization caused by YogamAyA. If it be urged that what is manifested by YogamAyA is the highest truth being the creation of the cit potency and that, therefore, the impression of paramourship is also really true, the reply is that there may exist an impression of analogous sentimental egoism in the tasting of rasa free from any offense because it is not without a basis in truth. But the unwholesome impression that is produced in the mundane judgment is offensive and as such cannot exist in the pure cit realm. In fact SrIpAda JIva GosvAmI has come to the true conclusion, and at the same time the finding of the opposing party is also inconceivably true. It is the vain empirical wranglings about wedded wifehood and concubinage which is false and full of specious verbosity. He who goes through the commentaries of SrIpAda JIva GosvAmI and those of the opposing party with an impartial judgment cannot maintain his attitude of protest engendered by any real doubt. What the unalloyed devotee of the Supreme Lord says is all true and is independent of any consideration of unwholesome pros and cons. There is, however, the element of mystery in their verbal controversies. Those, whose judgment is made of mundane stuff, being unable to enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees, due to their own want of unalloyed devotion, are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views. Commenting on the zloka of RAsa-paJcAdhyAyI, gopInAM tat-patInAM ca, etc., what SrIpAda SanAtana GosvAmI has stated conclusively in his VaiSNava-toSaNI has been accepted with reverence by the true devotee SrIpAda VizvanAtha CakravartI without any protest.

 

Whenever any dispute arises regarding the pure cognitive pastimes, such as Goloka, etc., we would do well to remember the precious advice from the holy lips of SrImAn MahAprabhu and His associates, the GosvAmIs, viz., that the Truth Absolute is ever characterized by spiritual variegatedness that transcends the variegatedness of mundane phenomena; but He is never featureless. The divine rasa is lovely with the variegatedness of the fourfold distinction of vibhAva, anubhAva, sAttvika and vyabhicAri and the rasa is ever present in Goloka and VaikuNTha. The rasa of Goloka manifests as vraja-rasa on the mundane plane for the benefit of the devotees by the power of YogamAyA. Whatever is observable in gokula-rasa should be visible in goloka-rasa, in a clearly explicit form. Hence the distinction of paramourship and concubinage, the variegatedness of the respective rasas of all different persons, the soil, water, river, hill, portico, bower, cows, etc., all the features of Gokula exist in Goloka, disposed in an appropriate manner. There is only this peculiarity that the mundane conceptions of human beings possessed of material judgment, regarding those transcendental entities, do not exist there. The conception of Goloka manifests itself differently in proportion to the degree of realization of the various pastimes of Vraja and it is very difficult to lay down any definite criterion as to which portions are mundane and which are uncontaminated. The more the eye of devotion is tinged with the salve of love, the more will the transcendental concept gradually manifest itself. So there is no need of further hypothetical speculation which does not improve one's spiritual appreciation, as the substantive knowledge of Goloka is an inconceivable entity. To try to pursue the inconceivable by the conceptual process is like pounding the empty husk of grain, which is sure to have a fruitless ending. It is, therefore, one's bounden duty. by refraining from the endeavor to know, to try to gain the experience of the transcendental by the practice of pure devotion. Any course, the adoption of which tends to produce the impression of featurelessness, must be shunned by all means. Unalloyed parakIya-rasa free from all mundane conception is a most rare attainment. It is this which has been described in the narrative of the pastimes of Gokula. Those devotees, who follow the dictate of their pure spontaneous love, should base their devotional endeavors on that narrative. They will attain to the more wholesome fundamental principle on reaching the stage of realization. The devotional activities characterized by illicit amour, as practiced by worldly-minded conditioned souls, are forbidden mundane impiety. The heart of our apostle SrIpAda JIva GosvAmI was very much moved by such practices and induced him to give us his conclusive statements on the subject. It is the duty of a pure VaiSNava to accept the real spirit of his statements. It is a great offense to disrespect the AcArya and to seek to establish a different doctrine in opposition to him.</blockquote>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, gHari, for speaking out and others as well. Shiva takes our sincere posts and misinterprets their intended meanings just so he can trot out the same old nonsense in his usual contemptuous way. Fact is, he has absolutely NO qualifications as an authority, on Gaudiya vaishnavism at least, although he always seems eager to trample the simple heartfelt faith of others.

[Guest guest]

It doesn't matter what WE think the truth is,

who are we ?

 

the truth is not relative to ourselves,the truth

is absolute our understanding changes as our level of ignorance changes.

 

So any attempts to establish absolute truth based on

our "feelings" or any other method other then submissive inquiry of the truth itself will lead one to deify

our "feelings" or our own mind,for example an earlier post someone claimed to be the representative of "paramatma",this kind of self

diefication is the antithesis of humble inquiry.

 

this is from Srila Prabhupada

 

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical.

 

Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas.

 

Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja.

Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions.

 

All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms.

 

These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form.

 

There is no difference between the original and reflected forms.

 

The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

why disagree ?

 

again from Srila Prabhupada

 

"Lord Krsna enchants the world, but Sri Radha enchants even Him.

 

Tberefore She is the supreme goddess of all.

 

Sri Radha is the full power, and Lord Krsna is the possessor of full power.

 

The two are not different, as evidenced by the revealed scriptures.

 

They are indeed the same, just as musk and its scent are inseparable, or as fire and its heat are nondifferent.

 

Thus, Radha and Krsna are one, although they have taken two forms to enjoy a relationship."

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^If you say that is wrong,please show where Srila Prabhupada

is mistaken.

 

this is from Bhaktivinoda thakura

 

"O Krishna, I am Radha, who stays on Your chest during the rasa dance in Vrindavan forest."

 

"Thus from Durga-devi's words we can understand that the Lord does not have two potencies.

 

There is only one potency, who manifests Herself as the spiritual potency Radhika and the material potency Visnu-maya.

 

When the potency is free from the material modes, she is called the spiritual potency, and when she is within the sphere of the material modes, she is called the material potency.

 

 

The potency and the possessor of the potency are not different."

 

The meaning, then, is that the potency does not exist apart from its substance.

 

The only true substance is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of potencies.

 

The nature of the potency is either to be a quality of the Supreme Lord, or submissive to His will.

 

When it is said that the potency has pure consciousness, that means that because the potency and the master of potencies are NOT DIFFERENT, therefore, like the master of potencies, the potency also has a form of spiritual consciousness, has desires that are at once fulfilled, and is beyond the touch of the three modes.

 

 

It is not a mistake to say these things. Will and consciousness are qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

By itself, the potency does not possess will, but rather it carries out the will of the Supreme.

 

For example, you have power, and by Your will, your potencies act. If you say, 'the power acted', then that means that the possessor of the power was actually behind the action.

 

To say that 'the power acted' is only to use a figure of speech.

 

In truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has only one potency.

 

 

When she performs spiritual actions, she is called spiritual potency, and when she performs material actions, she is called the material potency, or maya. "

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

some people may call these philosophical conclusions

"poisonous" and they may reject these ideas,but they

cannot present any evidence to the contrary other then

their claims of being the true representative

of Paramatma.

 

this is from Bhaktisiddhanta

 

siddhanta alasa jana anartha to chade na

jade krsna bhrama kori krsna seva kore na

 

"One who is lazy in properly understanding the Vaisnava philosophical conclusions can never become free from anarthas, the unwanted bad habits and philosophical misconceptions what impede devotional service. One who mistakes Krishna as belonging to the material plane can never render actual service to the Lord."

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

THIS IS FROM THE PURPORT SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM,CANTO 2,chapter 4,TEXT 10

A.C.Bhaktivedanta

 

 

The expansions of different forms of the lord,as from Krishna to Baladeva to Sankarsana,from Sankarsana to Vasudeva,from Vasudeva to Aniruddha,from Aniruddha to Pradyumna,and then again to second Sankarsana and from him to the Narayana-Purusavataras,AND INNUMERABLE OTHER FORMS,

WHICH ARE COMPARED TO THE CONSTANT FLOWING OF THE UNCOUNTABLE WAVES OF A RIVER, ARE ALL ONE AND THE SAME."

 

 

"Although the Lord of Laksmi, Narayana and Sri Krsna are essentially ONE AND THE SAME, the superexcellence of Sri Krsna's position lies in His being the object of the highest prema-rasa, because the very nature of rasa shows the most supreme excellence of the Form of Sri Krsna in whom alone all 12 rasas find their highest expression. In other words, according to transcendental realization, there is no difference between the forms of Narayana and Krsna. Yet in Krsna, there is a special transcendental attraction due to the conjugal mellow, and consequently He surpasses Narayana. This is the conclusion of transcendental mellows.(Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu, Purva-vibhaga 2.59)

 

 

vasudevam sankarsanam pradyumno'niruddho'tam matsyam kurmo varaham

nrsimho vamano ramo ramo ramam krsno buddham kalkir aham iti

 

The Supreme Lord said, "I am Krsna. I appear as Vasudeva, Sanarsana, Pradyumna, and Aniruddha. I appear as Baladeva, Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Nrsimha, Vamana, Rama and Parasurama. I also appear as Buddha and Kalki. (Catur-Veda-Siksa)

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You do not have to accept the conclusions of the acharyas,

no one says you must agree,But you are saying that i am

concocting "poison",I simply am passing on from the above.

 

Here is what Ghari posted on this topic a while back.

 

 

 

"Surely we are not suggesting that since Sri Radha and Sri Balarama are expansions of Sri Krsna that Krsna only feigns pastimes with Them to teach us lessons; that Krsna has no associates with whom to interact; that He is actually completely totally alone, being All That Is; period. This certainly sounds 'acintya', but it is hardly 'bhedAbheda'. Even suggesting that only we marginal entities are separate, that there is no genuine interaction between any elements of Vishnu-tattva, just doesn't seem reasonable. I know Krsna has a real flare for the dramatic in teaching us lessons, but this seems just too devious for me to accept, at least initially."

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that is in stark contrast to Srila Prabhupada

who i quoted above and also here.

 

 

It is not that Radharani is separate from Krishna.

 

Radharani is also Krishna, for there is no difference between the energy and the energetic.

 

Without energy, there is no meaning to the energetic, and without the energetic there is no meaning to the energy.

 

Similarly, without Radha there is no meaning to Krishna and without Krishna there is no meaning to Radha.

 

Because of this, the Vaisnava philosophy first of all pays obeisances to and worships the internal pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord.

 

Thus the Lord and His potency are always referred to as Radha-Krishna. Similarly those who worship Narayana first utter the name of Laksmi, as Laksmi-Narayana. Similarly those who worship Lord Rama first utter the name of Sita. In any case – Sita-Rama, Radha-Krishna, Laksmi-Narayana – the potency always comes first."

 

"The Philosophy of Lord Chaitanya was that God is One without a second.

 

He is known as Sri Krishna but His incarnations such as Rama Nrisingha are all identical with Him.

 

The living entities or Jivas are qualitatively one with Godhead but quantitatively they are innumerable but eternal servitors of the Supreme Personality of Godhead

 

. The present materialistic activities of the Jivas are to be understood as the acts of Maya or illusion and therefore they are all waste of energy of the human being.

 

The energy of the human being as also of other living being should therefore be directed under the bonafide regulations of the Acharya so the line of Lord Chaitanya and as such He vehemently protested against the principles of those pseudo transcendentalists now passed in the name of Lord Chaitanya."

 

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"Of the innumerable, eternal, conscious beings, there is one eternal Supreme Being.

 

That Supreme Lord is the maintainer of the innumerable living beings in terms of their different situations, according to individual work and reaction of work.

 

That Supreme Lord is also, by his expansion as Paramatma, present within the heart of every living being. Only those saintly persons who can see, within and without, that same Supreme Lord, cvan actually attain to perfect and eternal peace.

(Katha Upanisad 2.2.13)

 

 

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"Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise.

 

In the form of the narrative of the Bhagavatam, the Transcendental Vraja Lila manifests its descent to the plane of our mundane vision in the symbolic shapes resembling those of the corresponding mundane events. If we are disposed, for any reason, to underestimate the transcendental symbolism of the narrative of the Bhagavatam we are unable to avoid unfavorable and hasty conclusions regarding the nature of the highest, the most perfect and the most charming form of the loving service of the Divinity to which all other forms of his service are as the avenues of approach. "

 

Bhaktivinode Thakura

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Shiva,

 

Just for interest, I personally found that new-age super-conscious mumbo-jumbo definition of what God is to be quite displeasing. No offense intended; just a reaction that seemed worthy of note. It did not conjure up the Lord for me, but instead left me dangling out in space somewhere.

 

gHari

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from a lecture by Srila Prabhupada

 

 

 

But our Vaisnava philosophy does not say that. Vaisnava philosophy says, "God is one."

 

Not in... Vaisnava philosophy, you do not think that it is a sectarian. This is based on Vedic conclusion. In the Rg Veda also it is said, "God is one."

 

Tad visnoh. Visnu is paramam padam. He is Supreme. Vedas does not say that Brahma is supreme, or Lord Siva is the supreme, or Goddess Kali is supreme. No. Tad visnoh paramam... This is Rg Veda mantra.

 

And so far Bhagavad-gita is concerned, it is clearly said there by Krsna. He says, "I am the Supreme. Nobody's greater than Me."

 

We find in Brahma-samhita also the same thing, isvarah paramah krsnah [bs. 5.1]. So actually in the Vedas the Supreme Lord is accepted -- Visnu, or Narayana, or Krsna, different names of visnu-tattva. Even Sankaracarya, he also accepts, narayanah parah: "Narayana is the Supreme, Narayana."

 

 

"So God is one,

but there are different kinds of demigods. That is also a fact.

 

They are accepted as different parts and parcels of God, as we are also.

 

The demigods are also living entities. They are not visnu-tattva.

 

There are visnu-tattva, jiva-tattva and sakti-tattva.

 

Visnu-tattva is the Supreme Absolute Truth,

jiva-tattva is part and parcel,

and sakti-tattva is the energy of God.

 

So the demigods... You can become a demigod. You can become. If you follow the process how to become, then you become one day the demigod in the sun planet. It is not difficult. You can become one day even Lord Brahma. Just like you can become one day President Nixon, like him. That requires your qualification.

 

But you can... But you cannot become Krsna or Narayana. That is not possible.

 

God is one.

 

You cannot become God, but you can become part and parcel of God, more powerful. That is possible. Just like you are all Americans, but some of you can become a big officer in the government, the president, the secretary, the governor, but their position is better than ordinary man, similarly, the demigods are like that. They are different officers of the Supreme Lord, Krsna. These things are described in Bhagavatam, that the sun rises under the order of the Supreme Lord. The moon rises under the order of the Supreme Lord. The ocean is not disturbing, it is calm and quiet... Not calm and quiet. It is in its position by the order of the Supreme Lord. So everyone is acting under the Supreme Lord. And Caitanya-caritamrta says, ekale isvara krsna: "Yes, the Supreme Lord is only Krsna." Ekale isvara krsna, ara saba bhrtya. Ara, "Any other demigod or even visnu-tattva, even Narayana, Visnu" -- there are so many, I mean to say, manifestation of visnu-tattva -- "they're all subordinate to Krsna." Isvarah paramah krsnah [bs. 5.1].

 

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“Vishnu is one, and yet He is certainly all-pervading. By His inconceivable potency, in spite of His one form, He is present everywhere, as the sun appears in many places at once.”

 

Krishna consciousness is the highest stage of trance in yoga practice. This very understanding that Krishna is present as Paramatma in everyone’s heart makes the yogi faultless. The Vedas (Gopala-tapani Upanishad 1.21) confirm this inconceivable potency of the Lord as follows: eko ’pi san bahudha yo ’vabhati. “Although the Lord is one, He is present in innumerable hearts as many.”

 

 

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Bhagavad gita as it is

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

from Gharis above post

 

 

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, residing in His own realm, Goloka, with RAdhA, resembling His own spiritual figure, the embodiment of the ecstatic potency possessed of the sixty-four artistic activities, in the company of Her confidantes [sakhIs], embodiments of the extensions of Her bodily form, permeated and vitalized by His ever-blissful spiritual rasa.

 

PURPORT

Although the Lord Absolute and His potency are one and the self-same existence, still They exist eternally as separate entities, as RAdhA and KRSNa.

 

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here We are told that Radha and Krsna are ONE AND THE

SELF-SAME EXISTENCE,

 

yet they exist eternally as seperate entities.

 

 

your misunderstanding is due to taking one part

wrongly,and the other part not at all.

 

We are being told they are one being,yet exist as two entities,what does that mean ?

 

that means they are both the same person,in two forms,

nothing more ,nothing less,

 

"As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself."

 

Bhaktivedanta swami Caitanya Caritamrta

 

 

[ancient_paztriot 0]

gHari, thanks very much for that post. The bold highlights I understand. The rest… ? You position is now clear to me. Hare Krsna!

 

Guest, I don't think Shiva's intention is so subversive. He's just expressing his understanding. I enjoy many of his comments.

 

Shiva, I've read much of what you posted. All of that oneness can be understood in terms of yoga or love. That's how many of us see it.

 

No victory claimed… perhaps you're right.

 

But let's agree to disagree. I see no point in pursuing this. Peace.

[Guest guest]

this is from Bhaktisiddhanta on Ramananda Rai

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In order to get rid of posing as an integer, which is but a tentative adumbration of depriving ourselves from the absolute position, Krishna's mercy was fully displayed in Ramananda;

so he was constantly busy with the greatest perfection of eternal blissful knowledge.

 

His entity has been analyzed by his deeds as thoroughly associated with the unalloyed spiritual manifestations.

 

Though his deeds are not approved by the enjoying mood of observers, still a keen penetration and longer sight would surely help the people to learn the Absolute Truth from his pastimes.

 

The Supreme Lord sent Pradyumna Mishra, a brahmana, to pick up some instructions so as to lead him to perfection.

 

The learner was confused to see Ramananda busy with the serving of dancing girls, paying no attention to him.

 

The seeming features did not attract him to accurately observe the divine spiritual deeds of the host.

 

The Supreme Lord gave him to understand to have patience to penetrate into the Real Absolute for which every soul is meant to equip himself for the eternal and transcendental journey.

 

Ramananda's trait of character is painted by the Supreme Lord in equality with Sri Rupa and Sri Sanatana who played the part of model ascetics.

 

Ramananda had no affinity of enjoying the world, but he was always on the look-out of rendering service to Sri Krishna by inducing the serving-maids for unalloyed amorous purposes pertaining to the eternal pastimes.

 

Silly observations are often found to misunderstand the whole thing, and they are observed to take the lowest level of non-ethical principles.

 

 

Ramananda's Maithili song has disclosed startling pastimes which are hardly to come under the rationalistic scope of mundane thinkers.

 

And this was fully participated in by the Supreme Lord in the company of His intimate friends.

 

His own verse, "Pida bhirna vakala kuta katubhih" is the full parade of speedy loving service to Krishna, instead of submitting to passionate feats.

 

The Supreme Lord has furnished the highest testimonial of the spiritual life in Ramananda.

 

The Supreme Lord spent His last days in the close companionship of this picked-up serving temper with His most confidential associates.

 

His drama served as one of the constant companions of the Supreme Lord's direct service to Krishna.

 

Ramananda was recognized as one of the four mukta purushas of the time of the Supreme Lord and he was certified to be the only friend who had no equal among the bhaktas He met in the South.

 

But alas! the highest platform of a devotee is often taken advantage of by the greatest scoundrels and thereby the providential will is carried fully by preventing intelligent pedants to have access to the eternal world where knowledge is infinity and bliss is incessant.

 

He was not an instructor to teach merely how to get rid of this mundane bondage but served as an advance-guide of eternally unfettered liberated souls in their incessant unalloyed service of the pastimes of Krishna, who have no connection with or reference to the mundane relative service of the Lord.

 

 

The combination of hasya, adbhuta, karuna rasas added to the delicious taste of madhurya which could not be compared with any other representation of the kind. There are various means by which the services of Krishna are attained and these variegated aspects can be judged with their respective merits. A servitor is to select, by his predilection, the acme of the function of his soul. But there is a distinctive reference of comparative study if we are not guided by a definite principle. A comparative scrutinization would certainly give us to know the additional qualities, as we find in examining ether, etc., augmented by successive additional attributes and reach the climax with the association of the five in the solid representation. The Personality of Godhead can only be had to accept our unalloyed loving service through love alone and not by reverential procedure. Sri Krishna being the very fountain-head of all resorts of rasa, He is ever prepared to welcome every ser vitor whoever he and whatever his serving procedure may be.

 

But if the object is distorted like our confusing Jehovah with Moloch and Moloch with Jehovah, we would certainly miss the kindly feelings of Krishna. This conception in scrutinizing ourselves will lead us astray from the true object. Our eternal functions and activities if misdirected will give us troubles and if we fall to determine Krishna, Who is the sole attractor of the unalloyed entities of souls, we will certainly miss to apprehend the process inculcated by Ramananda. Our wrong and erroneous promulgation will never enable us to get the best benefit that can be had by us if we fail to single out loving tenor to Krishna against Dharma, artha, kama and moksha, i.e., by our limited propensity of limited elevation and salvation.

 

Ramananda, being further asked to subjoin the fullest reciprocity of madhurya rasa, advanced to delineate the counter reciprocal moiety of the whole by fixing the object in Sri Radhika.

 

The highest step of devotion is displayed to serve the Pair and to utilize the full independence of the servitor to espouse the cause of the predominating aspect of the counter-whole by associating oneself in Her company.

 

Ramananda was found to describe the situation of the paraphernalia and the transcendental duties congenial to confidential service of attending maids of Sri Radhika which completed the full narration of the manifestive position of amorous Pair.

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the following is from Sanatana Goswamis "Brhad Bhagavatamrtam", Which like a sutra is the condensed form of all the knowledge of the Bhagavatam ,we hear from Gopa Kumar,He represents the jiva in this story which shows the successive levels of spiritual progression on the path to Goloka.

 

Here he speaks,( after leaving earth and entering siddhaloka,

Brahmaloka,Vaikuntha,Ayodhya,and Dwarka) when he finally enters

into Vrndavana,the end of His journey,the story

represents the culmination of the journey of the

jiva as he enters into the intimacy of Sri Radha Krsna

and the Gopis.

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There, in Goloka, which the demigods, kings of the planets, and their associates could not approach, seeing a country glorious as the sunrise, where there were the ways and customs and human language of Bharata-varsa's Arya-varta, I became filled with wonder and I plunged in an ocean of bliss.

In a moment I saw cowherd men going here and there and elderly gopis picking flowers.

Everyone there was extraordinary, different from any people I had seen before. It seemed that someone had stolen the treasure of their hearts.

Simply by seeing them I became like them. Carefully composing myself, I approached them and asked them this question.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the words "became like them" means that Gopa-kumara also became very agitated.

O people served by great bliss beyond what the great paramahamsas can desire, O people to whom the loving devotees of the goddess of fortune's husband pray for mercy, please look, look with kindness on this poor person come to you for shelter. Tell him: Who is the king of this place? Where is His palace? By what path (does one go to Him)?

O fortunate ones, please be kind to me, who with plaintive words asks: O saintly ones, please give me a sign in answer.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that they did not answer Gopa-kumara's questions. He thinks they may be observing a vow of silence, so he asks that with a gesture of their hands they somehow answer his questions.

Please hear the words of troubled me. You must be overcome with love for that charming person.

Again and Again with plaintive words asking everyone I saw, I went to the different places in Vraja.

Moving my eyes in all directions, far away I saw a palace filled with great sweetness.

On that side, and also everywhere, I heard the beautiful singing of gopis, the sounds of them churning yoghurt, and the tinkling of their ornaments.

Suppressing the bliss I felt in my heart, I approached an elderly man who was emotionally singing "Krsna! Krsna!" and crying. I carefully listened to the broken words he spoke.

Simply by hearing the words "This is the palace of Krsna's father, the gopa-king Nanda" I fainted, overcome with happiness.

In a moment brought to consciousness by the kind elderly man, I ran ahead and came to the palace gate.

There I saw millions and millions of wonders never seen, heard of, or imagined by anyone.

O best of the brahmanas, I could not understand whether all the people were filled with bliss or overcome with sorrow.

Whether I heard the gopis songs I did not know whether they cried in the greatest happiness or the greatest sorrow. As I looked at this place, which I had ascended higher and higher to reach, I thought "I am in the material world".

Then I understood: "I am above all material and spiritual worlds. I am above the material and spiritual worlds".

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the word "loka" here means "the fourteen material worlds" and the words "aloka" and "ati-loka" mean "what is beyond the fourteen material worlds".

An elderly lady came. I bowed down before her and with sweet words asked: "Where does the son of Nanda enjoy pastimes today?"

Srila Sanatana Gosvami reminds us that this conversation was at the entrance to Nanda's palace.

The elderly lady said: He who gives life to us people of Vraja, in the morning went to the forest with His cows, friends, and elder brother to enjoy pastimes. Now, in the evening, He will return.

Their eyes fixed on the path, all the people of Vraja now stand by the Yamuna's shore. Even the trees, eager to see Him, stretch their leaves and branches high. He will come by this path.

Sri Gopa-kumara said: It was as if I was suddenly bathed with great streams of nectar. With a single glance I saw the path she showed.

I was stunned with bliss. My legs could no longer move. With a great effort from far away I could hear the sound...

...of cows mooing, and playful, sweet flute melodies filled with many charming waves of sound, that enchanted the people of Vraja...

...made the trees shed tears that were a great flood of nectar, made the people of Vraja shed streams of tears from their eyes, made milk flow from the breasts of the elderly mothers, and made the swiftly moving Yamuna become motionless.

Whether this flute flows with poison or nectar I do no know. Whether this sound is harder than a thunderbolt or softer than nectar I do not know. Whether it is hotter than fire or cooler than the moon I do not know. Because of it everyone in Vraja has become mad. Now they have fainted unconscious.

Then I saw some of the women of Vraja coming from the palace carrying in their hands articles for offering arati. Others carried on their heads ornaments and delicious foods.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that in their hands they carried lamps, and other things, and on their heads they carried garlands, ointments, fresh butter, sweet rice and other things.

As they hastily and confusedly ran in the direction of the cows' mooing and the flute's music, some of the women stumbled and fell.

Some had put their ornaments in the wrong places, some had forgotten to tie their belts and hair, some, stunned as trees, stayed in their homes, and some fainted and fell to the ground.

Some, their faces wet with tears, had fainted and were being carried by their friends. Others, overcome with love, came there and said to their friends: "Look! It is He!"

Continually singing His names and pastimes, decorated with wonderful beauty and colourful garments, and their good fortune robbing Goddess Laksmi of her pride in being fortunate, they ran to the Yamuna's shore. As if pulled by someone, I ran behind.

Then from far away I saw Him. His hand was glorious with the sweet flute. He quickly ran from His friends and cows, said "O Sridama, now I have found my friend Sarupa, who is a brilliant sun shining on the lotus flower of your family", and gracefully continued walking.

He was decorated with forest ornaments, a moving kadamba garland, and a peacock-feather turban. His fragrance filled the directions. His blossoming lotus face was handsome with a playful smile.

His lotus eyes glistened with merciful glances. His only real ornament was His own wonderful handsomeness. The fingers of His lotus hand pushed back the moving locks of His hair decorated with dust raised by the cows.

To beautify the surface of the earth, He touched it with His soft lotus feet as He danced gracefully.

Splendid with the sweetness of youth, His handsomeness made all the directions glorious. The ocean of His many glories charmed the hearts of His eternal dear friends there.

Controlled by the love of His helpless devotees, He ran to me. I fainted with love by seeing Him. He embraced my neck, and then suddenly fell to the ground.

In a moment I became conscious. I carefully freed my neck from His embrace. I saw Him fallen to the ground, unconscious, covered with dust, and muddying the path.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the Lord was muddying the ground with streams of tears.

The gopis came there and said: "Who has come here? What has he done to the goal of our lives? Alas! Alas! Now we people of Vraja are all dead!"

Crying and lamenting in many ways, and saying, "Perhaps he is a servant of the magician Kamsa", they gathered around Krsna.

The gopas quickly came. Seeing the situation, they cried pitifully.

Hearing the sound of crying, the people of Vraja: Nanda and the gopa men, Yasoda, who dearly loved her son, the other women, and the maidservants, fainting and stumbling as they came, all ran there, crying out "Alas! Alas!"

Then the cows, bulls, calves, black deer, and other animals all came there and, seeing what had happened to Krsna, cried in agony.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the animals all considered Krsna the Lord of their life.

Gently making sounds of love, their faces bathed with tears, approaching Him again and again, and smelling Him, they licked Him again and again.

Crying as they flew in the sky above, many grieving birds made a great sound.

Their hearts filled with pain, the unmoving trees and plants suddenly became withered and dry. How can I say it in words? All moving and unmoving beings became as if they were dead.

Tormented, drowning in an ocean of sorrow, confused about what I had done, placing my head at His feet, and crying, I lamented again and again.

Handsome Balarama, whose fair complexion was decorated with blue garments, who was dressed and decorated as His younger brother was, and who was only slightly older than He, with great fear quickly came from far away.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that Lord Balarama's complexion is the colour of a white lotus flower.

Balarama, the leader of the wise, cried at first, but then He became peaceful at heart. He looked about. He took my arms and carefully placed them around the neck of His younger brother.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that Lord Balarama looked about to find the cause of His brother's fainting.

He made my hand stroke Krsna's handsome limbs. He made me call out to Him with wonderfully sweet words. He made me lift Him from the ground.

At once He opened the charming lotus eyes that had been sealed by streams of tears. Seeing me, He happily embraced and kissed me, but then, looking around, He became embarrassed.

Having attained me, a friend more dear than life He had not seen for a long time, taking my hand in His left lotus hand, asking me wonderful questions, bringing happiness to all the people of Vraja, and walking as gracefully as an elephant, the handsome Lord entered the village of Vraja.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami gives "O dear friend, are you well? Are you happy?" as an example of Krsna's questions.

Unhappy in his absence, unable to go anywhere without Him, and hoping to see the Lord in the morning, the forest deer passed the night at the entrance to Vraja village.

Again and again flying over Vraja, the birds gazed at Krsna. Unable to see Him at night, weeping and crying out, they left.

At the insistence of Nanda, who was full of love for His sons, the two brothers did not stay to talk to the cows after they were milked, but went directly home.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that Nanda said, "Son, you must be tired from wandering in the forest. Go home with Your older brother. Bathe and perform Your other duties. I will stay and talk to the cows. Don't delay. Your mother is lamenting. She will rebuke me. Please honour the promise I made her. Go home at once."

Their limbs and garments bathed in the streams flowing out of love from their eyes and breasts, again and again Yasoda and Rohini offered arati to each limb of the two boys.

With her hair she offers arati to her son. She embraces Him and lovingly kisses Him. Will she hold His head to her breast or her waist?

Filled with love, He brought me to His mother and made me bow down before Her. Seeing that her son loved me, she was as affectionate to me as she was to Him.

Then, ignoring all other duties, some gopis came there on a certain pretext.

Seeing that the two mothers were making arrangements to bathe the two brothers, the mischievous Lord said to the gopis:

"O mothers, We two brothers are tortured with hunger. Please quickly prepare our meal, bring father, and We will eat."

Hearing these pleasant words, the gopis said: "O Sri Yasoda, queen of Vraja, O Queen Rohini, you need not do this. We will do this duty.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the duty here is the bathing of Krsna and Balarama.

"You two quickly prepare Their meal. We will nicely bathe Them at once."

Sri Yasoda said: "Girls, quickly bathe the older boy first and send Him to fetch Nanda so he may also eat."

Sri Sarupa said: Praising mother Yasoda's pleasing words, some gopis quickly bathed Balarama and sent Him (to get Nanda) as Yasoda and Rohini went into the kitchen.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that Sarupa is Gopa-kumara's original name in the spiritual world. From now on he will be identified as Sarupa.

One by one removing Sri Krsna's wonderful ornaments, they scrubbed His limbs with their own washcloths.

Alerting me with a signal, from far away He tossed into my open hand the flute, which was like the gopis' rival, for which they begged, and which they tried to grab from His lotus hand.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the signal was the Lord's dancing eyebrow. The gopis begged, "Give it to me! Give it to me!"

Then they anointed Him with excellent oil and carefully and expertly massaged Him with the soft touch of their lotus hands.

[Guest guest]

"Let us pause to consider what the absolute reality is in Himself.

SrI RUpa GosvAmI says, pUrvokta-... sArataH. In regard to these zlokas SrIpAda JIva GosvAmI after mature deliberation has established the transcendental paramourship as vibhrama-vilAsa,

something seemingly different from what it appears to be; such are the pastimes of birth, etc., accomplished by YogamAyA."

 

puport above ,Brahma Samhita 5.3.7

 

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the following is the final chapter of the

Brhad Bhagavatamrtam,Gopa Kumar,Now Sarupa,brings

another jiva to Goloka and introduces Him

to Sri Krsna.

 

Jagad-ananda (The Bliss of the Worlds)

 

 

Sri Sarupa said: O brahmana, please consider all this and decide what is the goal of life and the best way to attain it.

O best of Mathura brahmanas, by the grace of the goddess you also may attain all that I have attained.

Know that what you have not attained you will attain. I will see the Lord bestow His great mercy on you.

I have told you the most confidential secrets of the Lord, His devotees, and myself.

Everything of the highest love for the Lord's lotus feet, which I am embarrassed to reveal even in my own heart, and which is so confidential I myself do not know of it directly, in your presence has come from my mouth, for the Lord entered my heart and forced it out.

By the symptoms you show I see that you have great faith, which will bring you the greatest result.

This morning Queen Radhika instructed me: "O Sarupa, a Mathura brahmana who is My devotee has come to My forest."

On My order quickly go there alone, enlighten him, comfort him, and give him Krsna's mercy.

Following Her order, I happily came here from far away, not caring for the happiness of Krsna's company.

Sri Pariksit said: Seeing that the wealth of spiritual love had not yet appeared in the brahmana, Sarupa placed his hand on the brahmana's head.

Then, by the mercy of that great soul, the brahmana could see in his heart everything that Sarupa had seen.

Made successful by the very wonderful glory of association with a great soul, the brahmana at once attained his original spiritual form.

 

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that by the great mercy of the Lord one attains the association of a devotee. The value of associating with a devotee is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.7.19:

"By serving the feet of the spiritual master, one is enabled to develop transcendental ecstasy in the service of the Personality of Godhead, who is the unchangeable enemy of the Madhu demon, and whose service vanquishes one's material miseries."*

The Vasistha-sastra explains:

"One should always associate with devotees. Even if they do not teach you directly, their conversations amongst themselves will teach you. Association with wise devotees makes what was empty full. It turns death into immortality. It turns calamity into good fortune."

Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.12.12.) explains:

"My dear King Rahugana, unless one has the opportunity to smear his entire body with the dust of the lotus feet of great devotees, one cannot realise the Absolute Truth simply by observing celibacy (brahmacarya), strictly following the rules and regulations of householder life, leaving home as a vanaprastha, accepting sannyasa, or undergoing severe penances in winter by keeping oneself submerged in water or surrounding oneself in summer by fire and the scorching heat of the sun. There are many other processes to understand the Absolute Truth, but the Absolute Truth is only revealed to one who has attained the mercy of a great devotee."

 

 

Now plunged, as Sarupa was, in the nectar ocean of great love and tossed by the waves of many devotional ecstasies, the brahmana cried out: "O Krsna! Krsna! Please show me He who is the crown of youths!"

Taking a blade of grass in his teeth, he bowed down before Sarupa and with plaintive words asked both him and the moving and unmoving creatures there: "Where is Krsna? Have you seen Him?"

Chanting Krsna's beautiful names, grasping his guru's feet, plunged in an ocean of love and overcome by his guru's affectionate glance, the brahmana wept.

At once overcome with great love, standing up, wandering as a madman, and fainting unconscious, he fell on some thorny karira bushes.

O mother, from far away came sweet, deep sounds of bamboo flutes, horn bugles, tumburus, vinas and leaf flutes.

Awakened by the loud sounds, standing up and running toward them, they saw Gopaladeva, splendid with handsome dark limbs...

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the "they" here are the guru and his disciple.

 

 

and who was accompanied by His handsome and fair-complexioned elder brother Balarama, whose age and ornaments were like His, and by His dear friends, who were also like Him.

Filled with wonderful bliss by seeing Him, they both fell down offering dandavat obeisances, their peaceful composure destroyed.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the "they" here are the guru and his disciple.

Overcome with love for His dear devotees, and bewildered with happiness, Krsna ran to them, fell on them, and embraced them with His great, long arms.

 

 

His heart melting with mercy,, the Lord bathed them with streams of tears of love. With both hands He pulled them up at once. He made them peaceful.

Wiping tears and dust from their limbs, the merciful Lord embraced them again and again. Sitting with them on the ground, with the nectar of His words He pleased the brahmana.

The Supreme Lord said: O Janasarma, kindness of Mathura, O saintly one, O moon rising from the ocean of the brahmana's families, is everything well with you?

Note: The brahmana is here placed in his eternal position as a cowherd boy, and the Lord addresses him by his name in the spiritual world: Janasarma. From now on he is known as Janasarma.

By seeing you, I and My friends have become happy. My heart is drawn to your mercy. I always gaze at your path.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the words "I always gaze at your path" mean that Krsna anxiously waits for them, thinking "When will they come?"

By good fortune you remembered Me. By good fortune after a long time now I can see you. I am your obedient servant. Please stay here and enjoy as you wish.

Sri Pariksit said: Overcome with awe, love and bliss, he could not reply. Janasarma could not even gaze on the Lord.

 

 

His eyes and throat filled with tears, he placed the Lord's lotus feet on his head and wept.

Not seeing any proper gift to give, Krsna, the crest jewel of the generous, became agitated. Taking the ornaments from His own body, He decorated the brahmana and made him look like Sarupa.

In this way the Lord was merciful to the brahmana and made him a personal friend, like Himself. Then Janasarma attained his desires.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the Lord made him one of His gopa friends. By attaining his original spiritual form, the brahmana's desires were fulfilled. That the devotees desire an attainment like this, and not material things, is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

With a wonderful sound from His mouth, Krsna had the cows drink water, and with a signal from His flute He called them together.

After making the cows sit in comfortable places, He and His elder brother played in the water with the two of them and with His other friends.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that "the two of them" are Sarupa and Janasarma.

 

then the various interactions of the cohwherd boys

are described,the next verse is upon their return to Home

 

 

With hundreds of different playlets and funny expressions on His lotus face, He won over the discriminating audience of His friends expert in comedy and made them happy.

 

In this way He and Balarama enjoyed many happy pastimes.

By sounding signals on His flute and horn making the cows stand up and walk, He enjoyed pastimes near Govardhana Hill.

Each boy eagerly claiming "I am first!" with wonderful and colourful forest ornaments they decorated Him according to His own wish.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami gives haritala tilaka, a peacock feather crown, and a gunja necklace as examples of these forest ornaments.

Then, placing the newcomer, the brahmana now named Janasarma, in Sarupa's hand, Krsna, who gives happiness to Vraja, enjoyed the pastime of entering the gopa village at evening.

O you who by Lord Gopinatha's mercy have become a great saint, reflecting on it please accept this answer to your question.

Note: In this verse Maharaj Pariksit is speaking to his mother.

Mother, please try with a great effort to go to Sri Goloka, which is a deep ocean of the greatest transcendental bliss. Simply by going there one is able to enjoy many sublimely sweet and blissful pastimes with the Lord.

These pastimes are not always manifested to one who simply goes to Mathura-mandala on the earth. However, they will be manifested to one who is flooded with the mercy of a devotee dear to the Lord. Therefore, O mother, please take the dust of they who are dear to the Lord.

O mother, by describing Goloka, which brings eternal love for the Lord's glorious lotus feet touched by the glory of the kunkuma on the gopis' breasts, I have answered your sweet and profound question and I have dispelled your doubts.

 

 

"The damsels of Vrndavana, the gopis, are super goddesses of fortune. The enjoyer in Vrndavana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. The trees there are all wish-fulfilling trees, and the land is made of transcendental touchstone. The water is all nectar, the talking is singing, the walking is dancing, and the constant companion of Krsna is His flute. The effulgence of transcendental bliss is experienced everywhere. Therefore Vrndavana-dhama is the only relishable abode."

In Goloka numberless milk-cows always emit transcendental oceans of milk. In Goloka is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the space of half a moment. That realm is known as Goloka only to a very few self-realised souls in this world."

"Dear friends, just imagine how fortunate the land of Vrndavana is were the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself is present, always decorated with flower garlands, and engaged in tending the cows along with His brother, Lord Balarama.

He is always accompanied by His cowherd boy friends, and He plays His transcendental flute. The residents of Vrndavana are fortunate to be able to constantly see the lotus feet of Krsna and Balarama, which are worshipped by great demigods like Lord Shiva, Lord Brahma, and the goddess of fortune."

"The gopis and cows of Vrndavana are so fortunate that they have been able to supply their breast milk to You. Persons who are engaged in performing great sacrifices cannot attain the perfection of understanding You, but simply by devotional service these innocent village women and cows are able to satisfy You with their milk. You have drunk their milk to satisfaction, yet You are never satisfied by those engaged in performing sacrifices."

"How greatly fortunate are Nanda Maharaj, the cowherd men, and all the other inhabitants of Vrajabhumi! There is no limit to their good fortune, because the Absolute Truth, the source of transcendental bliss, the eternal Supreme Brahman, has become their friend."

 

[Guest guest]

Let me give you an example of what I mean when i say that the literal

words of shastra do not give the absolute highest concept and understanding,even though there are those who believe that they do and base their self esteem and belief in their superior position on being able to repeat or memorize these things from shastra, the following is from Jadurani/Syamarani;

 

Quote:

It is said that Mahaprabhu was able to taste what He came to this world to taste-only after He met Raya Ramananda, who is Vishaka in Krishna-lila.

He learned from him how to taste Radha-bhava. Do you know why He learned from Ramananda Raya instead of Srila Swarupa Damodar, who is Lalita devi in Krishna-lila?

Lalita devi is the first expansion of Radharani, and Vishaka devi is the second expansion. But Visakha's birthday is the same as that of Srimati Radharani, so her nature is the same. She has practically the same qualities and the same form.

Krishna could not be taught by Lalita devi because her mood is pragalba, impudent and bold. (There is no actual equivalent word in English for pragalba.) Srimati Radhika and Srimati Visakha, although also left-wing gopis, are the same as each other-madhya-nayika (heroines who are a mixture of pragalbha and mugdha [enchanted]).

Therefore Mahaprabhu had to learn from Ramananda Raya how to taste Radha-bhava. And, because it was at Godavari where Mahaprabhu learned to taste that Radha-bhava, some may say that Godavari is higher than Navadwipa.

 

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Now if we take all of that literally we end up believing nonsense and

illogic.

Does Sri Caitanya need to hear from Ramananda Raya ?

Does Krsna need to incarnate as Sri Gauranga to taste what

Radha tastes ?

Is Lalita incapable of telling what Visakha can ?

 

The answer is no to all of the above,Why ?

Sri Caitanya is in full knowledge of everything,

Radha and Krsna are one and the same,

Lalita,Visakha and Radha are all one and the same.

 

So my point is that all of these topics are just like that,

by taking the literal as being all in all we lose the real

meaning they are meant to convey,All of the things

Jadurani has written are confirmed in shastra,

yet at the same time they are all demonstrably false

if taken literaly, which leaves us with the symbolic

intent of these topics,there has to be an inner meaning ,the

real meaning, because the literal is obviously false.

 

the concept of the entire rasa lila is written in the

exact same manner, literaly they make no sense when

viewed from the position of tattva, Radha and Krsna

are described as one and the same,the gopis are described

as Radha's expansions just like Krsna's expansions

as Dwarkadisa or Narayana.

 

Quote:

Radha and Krsna are one, and when Krsna desires to enjoy pleasure, He manifests Himself as Radharani. The spiritual exchange of love between Radha and Krsna is the actual display of the internal pleasure potency of Krsna. Although we speak of "when" Krsna desires, just when He did desire we cannot say. We only speak in this way because in conditional life we take it that everything has a beginning; however, in the absolute or spiritual life there is neither beginning nor end. Yet in order to understand that Radha and Krsna are one and that They also become divided, the question "When?" automatically comes to mind. When Krsna desired to enjoy His pleasure potency, He manifested Himself in the separate form of Radharani, and when He wanted to understand Himself through the agency of Radha, He united with Radharani, and that unification is called Lord Caitanya.

 

 

So here we have the tattva,if we view rasa lila with this in mind

it is all illogical,How can Radha have a relationship with Krsna

when they are the same person ?

 

so Prabhupada explains

 

Quote:

The spiritual exchange of love between Radha and Krsna is the actual display of the internal pleasure potency

 

 

Here we find the key to unlock this mystery,The exchange of love between

Radha and Krsna is a display, what kind of display ?

Radha's display,the display of hladini sakti.

 

So in fact what is acted out has both a literal aspect,that which

is seen with the eyes and heard with the ears,and an inner aspect,that which is understood by the devotee who has been privy to the

tattva of Sri Radha Krsna, What appears to the eyes and ears

what is that ? that is Radha's display.

 

what is the inner reality ?,Radha and Krsna are one and the same,

the gopis are all furthur expansions of the one supreme lord.

 

Sri Caitanya's incarnation we are told is for the purpose

first and formostly for Krsna to try and understand what Radha is tasting,

But we are told Krsna and Radha are one and the same,

so literally this is illogical as well.

 

None of this "highest most intimate tattva" makes any sense

if taken literally,none of it.

 

Yet we find many,many,many devotees endlessly speaking

and preaching like Jadurani does above,repeating these

topics and preaching them as if the literal words is what

they really mean.

 

And at the same time insisting that those literal understandings

are the highest nectar,and that those who repeat these things

are teaching the highest thing,they are devotees on the

highest level,the most intimate understanding is theirs,

i.e. what the literal meaning is.

 

to me this is all ridiculous,none of those topics when taken literally

make any sense,in fact they have another deeper message,

and yet devotees in the face of logic and reason will insist

that the literal is the highest understanding, they insist that

what is described is all there is,Radha loves Krsna,the gopis

love Krsna,Sri Caitanya needs to incarnate to taste what

Radha tastes etc,etc,etc.

 

In the face of constant contradiction the tendency is there

to revert to the "unknowable", " oh,these things are acintya,

they are beyond our ability to understand" i have been informed.

 

Actually they are acintya if you take the literal descriptions

as being the final word,then the impossible can be written off

as inconcievable,unknowable,beyond our understanding.

 

But if we take a moment and consider everything that we have been

told,then things make sense,then things are no longer acintya,

no longer unknowable,no longer beyond our ability to comprehend.

 

When we fully understand what is meant by

 

Quote:

The spiritual exchange of love between Radha and Krsna is the actual display of the internal pleasure potency

 

 

then with that as our guide,seeing Rasa lila as Radha's display

for our education,then we are ready to understand and enter

into that reality,the inner truth of Rasa lila,which is also known

as the aprakrta lila, that which is unmanifest,that which

is hidden, the prakrta is the display for all to see,

what we can see and hear ,the aprakrta is the reality,

that which is unmanifest except to those who are qualifed.

 

 

this is from the Narada bhakti sutra

 

Quote:

In the stage of perfection, one's heart becomes slackened and one becomes more and more attached to attaining the lotus feet of the Lord. Srila Rupa Gosvami, a great acarya in the line of devotional service, has described this stage as follows: "Although appearing just like a madman, a person in the ecstasy of devotional service is not mad in the material conception of the term; this ecstasy is the manifestation of the pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord." The Lord has various potencies, one of which is called hladini sakti, His internal pleasure potency. Only one who becomes a little conversant with this potency can taste such ecstasy. The Vedanta sutra (1.1.12) states, Ananda-mayo 'bhyasat: "By nature the Lord is always joyful." This joyfulness of the Lord is due to His pleasure potency.

 

 

Quote:

It is stated explicitly that the spiritual world is a manifestation of the Lord's internal pleasure potency, svarupa-sakti, the Lord's most powerful potency. "Whereas the material energy is conducted by the external potency, maya, the spiritual world is conducted by the internal potency, Radharani." (Elevation to KC, Ch. 5) And the residents thereof are firmly situated under the protection of that internal potency-antaranga-sakti-vilasanugrhita. (Bhagavat-sandarbha )

 

 

Quote:

Cc. Madhya Ch. 6 Verse 157

 

hladini sandhini samvit

tvayy eka sarva-samsraye

hlada-tapa-kari misra

tvayi no guna-varjite

 

Translation:

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha. This

means that He originally has three potencies - the pleasure potency, the

potency of eternality and the potency of knowledge. Together these are

called the cit potency, and they are present in full in the Supreme Lord.

For the living entities, who are part and parcel of the Lord, the pleasure

potency in the material world is sometimes displeasing and sometimes

mixed. This is not the case with the Supreme Personality of Godhead

because He is not under the influence of the material energy or its

modes."

 

 

 

And finally from Bhaktivinoda we get the full inner

truth,in his Das Mula

 

Quote:

"Lord Sri Krsna is eternally full of knowledge (saccit) in His constitutional form, and the knowledge of eternal bliss non-different from Him is - Srimati Radhika. The confidantes (sakhis) of all-blissful Radhika pertain to a particular mood of Herself, and accordingly, they comprise of an embodiment of array. In as much as those confidantes are the embodiment of any array under the superior energy, they are also the manifestation of the constitutional form of superior energy.

 

When the requirement of love for Krsna is fulfilled and the living entity is purified, he is then considered to be one among the valets of those confidantes and starts enjoying eternal blissful existence, remaining ever-charged with the pleasure of offering service to Radha Krsna, which state of existence is the highest requirement of all living entities. This is really an amazing mood of the knowledge of eternal absolute truth ."

 

 

 

and also from Ramananda Raya the above is confirmed

 

Quote:from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati

 

The Supreme Lord has furnished the highest testimonial of the spiritual life in Ramananda.

 

Ramananda, being further asked to subjoin the fullest reciprocity of madhurya rasa, advanced to delineate the counter reciprocal moiety of the whole by fixing the object in Sri Radhika.

 

The highest step of devotion is displayed to serve the Pair and to utilize the full independence of the servitor to espouse the cause of the predominating aspect of the counter-whole by associating oneself in Her company.

 

Ramananda was found to describe the situation of the paraphernalia and the transcendental duties congenial to confidential service of attending maids of Sri Radhika which completed the full narration of the manifestive position of amorous Pair.

 

 

 

to be a valet to the gopis,and to utilize your independence to espouse

the cause of the predominator in their association,this

is the both the conclusion of Ramananda Raya and

Bhaktivinoda Thakura as being the the inner meaning

of rasa lila.

[yasodanandana 0]

So here we have the tattva,if we view rasa lila with this in mind

it is all illogical,How can Radha have a relationship with Krsna

when they are the same person ?

••because in the spiritual realm the concepts, the energies are not abstract.. so the hladini shakti is an internal energy of krishna and a complete separate individual with a full real autonomy and freedom

<

<

<

to me this is all ridiculous,none of those topics when taken literally

make any sense,in fact they have another deeper message,

and yet devotees in the face of logic and reason will insist

that the literal is the highest understanding, they insist that

what is described is all there is,Radha loves Krsna,the gopis

love Krsna,Sri Caitanya needs to incarnate to taste what

Radha tastes etc,etc,etc.

In the face of constant contradiction the tendency is there

to revert to the "unknowable", " oh,these things are acintya,

they are beyond our ability to understand" i have been informed.

Actually they are acintya if you take the literal descriptions

as being the final word,then the impossible can be written off

as inconcievable,unknowable,beyond our understanding.

•••and you are right... but in the inconcievable quality of these lilas there's also the fact that the radha really loves krsna and that krsna needs really to incarnate in chaitanya to taste whata radharani tastes

 

it is very difficul to understand and explain, but there's truth in the literal and also in the symbolic position.... krsna is not an ignorant human being that has the need to understand something by a new life's experience, but surely the krsna lilas are not only a display or a theater... the things are really happening. One asked to prabhupada: "can krsna create a weight that he cannot lift?" prabhupada answered "yes he can... then he lift".

So krsna knows everything of radha. being her his potency, but, impossible to us to understand even if a little bit, He creates for Himself a space to "advance in krishna consciousness" to increase his transcendental bliss.

So he came as Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu..

<

<

<

<

 

there's two deviations ready for us to fall in:

1)the "literalist" can become a materialist thinking that there's no difference from the human activities and the divine ones

2)the "anti-literalist" can become a mayavadi thinking that the reality of the lilas ... is not real

[Guest guest]

 

••because in the spiritual realm the concepts, the energies are not abstract.. so the hladini shakti is an internal energy of krishna and a complete separate individual with a full real autonomy and freedom

 

 

 

that is pure speculation,the following is the

words of Bhaktivinoda Thakura on the

nature of the internal energy.

 

"When it is said that the potency has pure consciousness, that means that because the potency and the master of potencies are NOT DIFFERENT, therefore, like the master of potencies, the potency also has a form of spiritual consciousness, has desires that are at once fulfilled, and is beyond the touch of the three modes.

 

 

It is not a mistake to say these things. Will and consciousness are qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

By itself, the potency does not possess will, but rather it carries out the will of the Supreme.

 

For example, you have power, and by Your will, your potencies act. If you say, 'the power acted', then that means that the possessor of the power was actually behind the action.

 

To say that 'the power acted' is only to use a figure of speech.

 

In truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has only one potency. "

 

 

 

•••and you are right... but in the inconcievable quality of these lilas there's also the fact that the radha really loves krsna and that krsna needs really to incarnate in chaitanya to taste whata radharani tastes

 

it is very difficul to understand and explain, but there's truth in the literal and also in the symbolic position.... krsna is not an ignorant human being that has the need to understand something by a new life's experience, but surely the krsna lilas are not only a display or a theater... the things are really happening.

 

 

well yes the things are really happening as you put it,

but there is an internal reality and an external reality,

the external reality is what you see ,the internal

reality is revealed from knowledge,externally Radha

is a girl,Krsna is a boy,they relate to each other

as if they are just like that,internally there is

the reality that is hidden,they are one and the same person,even though the external lila is real,the true

nature of that lila is understood when the inner

reality is understood.

[yasodanandana 0]

"When it is said that the potency has pure consciousness, that means that because the potency and the master of potencies are NOT DIFFERENT, therefore, like the master of potencies, the potency also has a form of spiritual consciousness, has desires that are at once fulfilled, and is beyond the touch of the three modes.

•••prabhu i am sorry, but we are approaching the same kind of debate we did about the spiritual master... baktivinoda takura here does not say that radhe is not an individual, a person.. the takura says that radhe derives his exixtence and power from krishna. Another sign is that it is used the term NON DIFFERENT, that , technically is not exactly as to say THEY ARE THE SAME THING, OBJECT, PERSON, IDENTITY and so on. More subtlety is required.. inconceivable is the exact term, radhe is an energy, but the energies are svarupas, persons, personalities.. this is the "form of spiritual consciousness," that bhaktivinoda thakura is speaking of

 

For example, you have power, and by Your will, your potencies act. If you say, 'the power acted', then that means that the possessor of the power was actually behind the action.

•••this in the material world... in the spiritual world the thing is inconceivably more complex.. the owner of the shakti acts, but also the shakti in herself acts.. because she's also a purusha, an individual, full realized and full of freedom... simply we do not understand it fully.. we oscillate between materialism (they're humans) or impersonalism (there's a reality beyond the forms)

 

To say that 'the power acted' is only to use a figure of speech.

•••in the spiritual wold the powers are persons.. "form of spiritual consciousness" as bhaktivinoda takura says, form means individual, person and consciousness means personality, life, autonomy, freedom

 

but there is an internal reality and an external reality,

•••in the spiritual realm there's not internal or external, everything is spiritual, there's not material cover and spiritual core.. so radha and krsna are the supreme girl and the supreme boy and also energy and energetic and there's no superior or inferior perception. To say that the boy/girl is the only aspect is to say that radhakrsna are human and it is gross materialism, to say that this girl/boy aspect is external or illusory is impersonalism/mayavadism

 

the reality that is hidden,they are one and the same person,even though the external lila is real,the true nature of that lila is understood when the inner reality is understood.

•••agree, but it is more a technical question.. to say that radha as transcendental girl of krsna is as intimate, true and right than to say that she's representing the hladini shakti... ther's not an really external meaning and an inner meaning, both are inner. In the spiritual world there's not the reality and the illusion, everything is real

[ancient_paztriot 0]

Wasn't it November 10th?

[Guest guest]

than you for your reply, although i am a bit dissapointed

in your approach to philosophical debate,when debating

tattva jnana it is required that one present relevent

citations from guru ,sastra and sadhu,otherwise ones own

interpretation is not accepted as bona fide without

a source.

 

 

•••prabhu i am sorry, but we are approaching the same kind of debate we did about the spiritual master... baktivinoda takura here does not say that radhe is not an individual, a person.. the takura says that radhe derives his exixtence and power from krishna. Another sign is that it is used the term NON DIFFERENT, that , technically is not exactly as to say THEY ARE THE SAME THING, OBJECT, PERSON, IDENTITY and so on. More subtlety is required.. inconceivable is the exact term, radhe is an energy, but the energies are svarupas, persons, personalities.. this is the "form of spiritual consciousness," that bhaktivinoda thakura is speaking

 

 

this is from Srila Prabhupada

 

"As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. THEY ARE INDENTICAL.

Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas.

Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja.

Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions.

All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms.

These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form.

There is no difference between the original and reflected forms.

The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself."

 

also Srila Prabhupada writes;

 

"It is not that Radharani is separate from Krishna.

Radharani is also Krishna, for there is no difference between the energy and the energetic."

 

So here we the difference between what you say and what the acaryas say, Bhaktivinoda says that when we say the energy

has will and consciousness that is just a manner of speech,the fact is the energy and controller of energy

are the same thing,non different, so in that sense

the energy has will,but by itself (YOU CLAIM THE OPPOSITE)

the energy does not have will,in other words Radha

and Krsna are one person,Radha does not have a seperate

will and consciousness from Krsna,both are one person

displaying different personalities,they are identical,

Radha is Krsna's womanly form,their is no difference

between them.

 

from Bhaktivinoda

 

"For example, you have power, and by Your will, your potencies act. If you say, 'the power acted', then that means that the possessor of the power was actually behind the action.

To say that 'the power acted' is only to use a figure of speech."

 

your interpretation completely negates what Bhaktivinoda

is saying,you said

 

 

the owner of the shakti acts, but also the shakti in herself acts.. because she's also a purusha, an individual, full realized and full of freedom... simply we do not understand it fully.. we oscillate between materialism (they're humans) or impersonalism (there's a reality beyond the forms)

 

 

which is the opposite conclusion of Bhaktivinoda and Srila

Prabhupada,you say the shakti is a seperate individual,

they say the shakti is not,it is the same as the

possesser of shakti,you say Radha has autonomous individuality and freedom,Bhaktivinoda says she does not,

she is not different then Krsna,He compares that you

have potency,and by your will your potency acts,

you have the potency to walk, by your will you walk,

but your walking ability is not it's own independent

entity,it is your potency,so Radha and Krsna are like that, Radha is Krsna's womanly form,she is not a seperate

individual,a seperate will or entity,she is the same person

as Krsna,they are IDENTICAL.

 

from Bhaktivinoda

 

"To say that 'the power acted' is only to use a figure of speech."

 

THE ENERGY OR SAKTI OF GOD AND THE CONTROLLER OR POSSESSER are one substance,the energy

of God is not an independent person,these are figures of

speech only, in reality there is one person who

is energy,and controls that energy .

 

from Bhaktivinoda

 

"In truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has only one potency."

[yasodanandana 0]

than you for your reply, although i am a bit dissapointed

in your approach to philosophical debate,when debating

tattva jnana it is required that one present relevent

citations from guru ,sastra and sadhu,otherwise ones own

interpretation is not accepted as bona fide without

a source.

••• Oh.. haribolo prabhu...this is a discussion trick and you are trying to use it as a weapon.. two things to say 1)logic is important, we are speaking in front of people who knows the basic and there's not ever the need to bring the citation where prabhupada says "chant hare krishna and be happy 2)i think you are the one who supports my statements, in this and the other discussion in my opinion you have brought citations supporting my opinions not yours. So if you like citations i have them: your ones.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

prabhupada:"As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. THEY ARE INDENTICAL.

Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas.

Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja.

•••all the vedic and vaishnava theory say to us that the incarnations of god are complete personalities, not simply a mirror of krishna.. so this comparing of radhe with the vishnu tattvas is in itself a demonstration that radhe is a person and their expansions are persons

 

IDENTICAL means that all the subject who have this quality are existing, not that one exists and the others are illusions, dreams and so on

 

 

"It is not that Radharani is separate from Krishna.

Radharani is also Krishna, for there is no difference between the energy and the energetic."

•••the instruction has to be viewed in the context... if you say to me that krsna is a reality and radha comes from outside, or that she is a simple jiva or an expansion of another person i say to you that it is not true and there's no difference between radha and krsna... but if you say that radhe, in being "also krishna" has not personality, autonomy, freedom i have to answer to you in a different way... she's an energy but she's also a subject

We also are energies of krishna, we are separated in a sense and united to krishna in another... i am a complete person, i have the supreme freedom to realtionate with krsna with the fullness of my exclusive personality and radha not? radharani is not a person?

 

Bhaktivinoda says that when we say the energy......

bhaktivinoda takura: ""When it is said that the potency has pure consciousness, that means that because the potency and the master of potencies are NOT DIFFERENT, therefore, like the master of potencies, the potency also has a form of spiritual consciousness, has desires that are at once fulfilled, and is beyond the touch of the three modes."

•••these two aspects of the oneness and separation are perfectly harmonized.. the potency has consciousness because she and the master of potency are not different.. but the master and the potency also have a form of spiritual consciousness.

This phrase "form of spiritual consciousness" or "sat cit ananda rupa" means that both radha and krsna are complete and real personalities... so the oneness between krsna and radha is a reality and the differentiation between krsna and radha is a reality... so, if we want to grasp a little of the radha krsna tattva we have to accept these apparent contraddictions. Radha s non different by krsna and different at the same time, and this condition is to increase their lila

 

all your citations have to be viewed in their context and surely they answer to a material tendency to view the radha and krsna relationship as material, so one has to say : they are the same

 

but it happens also with us... are we different to krsna or non different? as chaitanya mahaprabhu says we are unconceivably (acynthia) different and non different, we are parts and parcels of krsna and individuals, atoms and individuals at the same time

 

"krsna enchants the whole world but srimati radhika enchants even him, Therefore Radha is the supreme goddess (cc adi 4.95)"

 

"srimati radharani is the center of all vrindavana activities. In vrindavana krsna is the instrument of srimati radharani; therefore all the inhabitants of vrindavan still chant "jaya radhe". from krsna's own statement given herein, it appears that radharani is the queen of vrindavana and that krsna is simply her decoration (cc madya 11.150)"

 

am i saying with these citations that radha is the absolute truth and krsna is emanating by her or that he's also a decoration of her? no.. the literal and the energetic aspects have to be reconciled not to be gross materialist or impersonalists

 

i think, as in the guru tattva discussion, that your tendency to find an "essence" an "ultimate truth" in realities of the spiritual world that they are in itself "ultimate truth" without nothing beyond, is somewhat excessive because, in my poor opinion, maybe it seems to show a conception where only the existence of krishna is real and the others are illusory, a conception where krsna syamasundar is alone in the universe living all the rasas with people who has not a real and complete existence in a sort of imaginary dream.

 

(i do not think that you are wrong, i do not know you, i think only that making a few of steps starting from some of your messages there's a danger to understand the truth in an impersonal way...: " the only real existence is the ONE, others are maya")

[Guest guest]

••• Oh.. haribolo prabhu...this is a discussion trick and you are trying to use it as a weapon.. two things to say 1)logic is important, we are speaking in front of people who knows the basic and there's not ever the need to bring the citation where prabhupada says "chant hare krishna and be happy 2)in my opinion you are the one who supports my statements, in this and the other discussion in my opinion you have brought citations supporting my opinions not yours. So if you like citations i have them, your ones..

 

 

well then debating you is waste of time

[yasodanandana 0]

many thanks for your infinite mercy

[Guest guest]

siddhanta-tas-tva-bhede 'pi srisa-krsna-svarupayoh

rasenot-krsyate krsna-rupamesa rasasthitih

 

Theoretically there is no difference in the forms of Narayana and Krishna. Still then from pastimes point of view Sri Krishna form is superior. This form depicts various qualities rasas.

(Bhakti-Rasamrta Sindhu, Purva-vibhaga 2.59)

 

The following is from Sri Jiva Goswami;

 

"Durga is also described in Narada-pancaratra, in the following conversation of Sruti and Vidya:

 

Durga is the supreme goddess. She is an incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. She is the transcendental potency of the Lord. She is manifested from the form of Lord Maha-Vishnu.

 

Simply by understanding her one immediately attains the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not otherwise.

 

Durga is the personal potency of Lord Krishna, and therefore she is Lord Krishna Himself. For this reason Durga should not be considered manifested from a portion of the Lord's illusory potency Maya. This fact is confirmed by the following stat ement of the Nirukti:

 

Even is one continually worships her, durga is still difficult to understand.

 

In the Sammohana Tantra, Durga herself declares:

 

I am Durga. I possess all virtues. I am not different from Sri Radha, the eternal, supreme goddess of fortune.

 

She is identical with Gokula's queen Sri Radha, who possesses a great treasure of love for Krishna. By her grace the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all living entities, is easily understood.

 

Sometimes Goddess Durga is also described as the supreme controller. This is also correct because there is no difference between the potencies and Lord Krishna, the master of all potencies. This is confirmed by the following words of the Gautamiya Tantra:

 

Krishna is Durga. Durga is Krishna. One who sees that they are different will not become liberated from the cycle of repeated birth and death."

 

 

 

The following is from Srila Prabhupada;

 

In his Anubhasya commentary Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura describes the Panca-tattva as follows:

 

The supreme energetic, the Personality of Godhead, manifesting in five kinds of pastimes, appears as the Panca-tattva.

Actually there is NO DIFFERENCE between them because they are situated on the absolute platform, but they manifest different spiritual varieties as a challenge to impersonalists to taste different kinds of spiritual humors (rasas).

In the Vedas it is said, parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate: "The varieties of energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are differently known."

From this statement of the Vedas one can understand that there are eternal varieties of humors, or tastes, in the spiritual world.

Sri Gauranga, Sri Nityananda, Sri Advaita, Sri Gadadhara and Srivasa are all on the same platform, but in spiritually distinguishing between them one should understand that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the FORM of a devotee,

Nityananda Prabhu appears in the FORM of a devotee’s spiritual master,

Advaita Prabhu is the FORM of a bhakta (devotee) incarnation,

Gadadhara Prabhu is the energy of a bhakta, and Srivasa is a pure devotee.

Thus there are spiritual distinctions between them. The bhakta-rupa (Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu), the bhakta-svarupa (Sri Nityananda Prabhu) and the bhakta-avatara (Sri Advaita Prabhu) are described as the Supreme Personality of Godhead HIMSELF,

His immediate manifestation and His plenary(SELF SAME) expansion, and They all belong to the Visnu category.

 

sei vapu bhinnabhase kicchu bhinnakara

bhava vesakrti bhede "tadketatma" nama ta-'ra

 

When the Lord's form is a little differently manifest and its features a little different in transcendental emotion and form, it is called tad-ekatma-rupa. (Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya 20.183)

 

vraje gopa-tava ramera pure ksatriya-bhavana

varna-vesa-bheda ta'te "vilasa" ta-'ra nama

 

Balarama, who has the same original form of Krsna, is Himself a cowherd boy in Vrndavana, and He also considers Himself to belong to the ksatriya race in Dvaraka. Thus His color and dress are different, and He is called a pastime (vilasa) form of Krsna. (Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya 20.187)

 

vaibhava-prakase ara prabhava-vilase

eka-i murtye baladeva bhava-bhede bhase

 

Sri Balarama is a vaibhava-prakasa manifestation of Krsna. He is also manifest in the original quadruple expansion of Vasudeva, Sankarsana, Pradyumna and Aniruddha. These are prabhava-vilasa expansions with different emotions. (Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya 20.188)

 

vasudevam sankarsanam pradyumno'niruddho'tam matsyam kurmo varaham

nrsimho vamano ramo ramo ramam krsno buddham kalkir aham iti

 

The Supreme Lord said, "I am Krsna. I appear as Vasudeva, Sankarsana, Pradyumna, and Aniruddha. I appear as Baladeva, Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Nrsimha, Vamana, Rama and Parasurama. I also appear as Buddha and Kalki. (Catur-Veda-Siksa)

 

"The expansions of different forms of the lord,as from Krishna to Baladeva to Sankarsana,from Sankarsana to Vasudeva,from Vasudeva to Aniruddha,from Aniruddha to Pradyumna,and then again to second Sankarsana and from him to the Narayana-Purusavataras,AND INNUMERABLE OTHER FORMS,

WHICH ARE COMPARED TO THE CONSTANT FLOWING OF THE UNCOUNTABLE WAVES OF A RIVER,ARE ALL ONE AND THE SAME."

(PURPORT SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM,CANTO 2,chapter 4,TEXT 10

A.C.Bhaktivedanta)

 

sarvatra prakasa tanra — bhakte sukha dite

jagatera adharma nasi' dharma sthapite

 

The Lord is situated in all the universes in different forms just to please His devotees. Thus the Lord destroys irreligious principles and establishes religious principles.

 

siddhanta-tas-tva-bhedo'pi sri krsna-svarupapayom

rasenot-krsyate krsna-rupamesa rasasthitim

 

Although the Lord of Laksmi, Narayana and Sri Krsna are essentially one and the same, the superexcellence of Sri Krsna's position lies in His being the object of the highest prema-rasa, because the very nature of rasa shows the most supreme excellence of the Form of Sri Krsna in whom alone all 12 rasas find their highest expression. In other words, according to transcendental realization, there is no difference between the forms of Narayana and Krsna. Yet in Krsna, there is a special transcendental attraction due to the conjugal mellow, and consequently He surpasses Narayana. This is the conclusion of transcendental mellows.(Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu, Purva-vibhaga 2.59)

 

athapi te deva padambuja-dvaya-

prasada-lesanugrhita eva hi

janati tattvamm bhagavan-mahimno

na canya eko 'pi ciram vicinvan

 

(Bhag. 10.14.29)

 

"My Lord, if one is favored by even a slight trace of the mercy of Your lotus feet, he can understand the greatness of Your personality. But those who speculate to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead are unable to know You, even though they continue studying the Vedas for many years."

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

where it is said that these different manifestation of the lord, even if his potencies not different to him are not also in an inconceivable manner complete personalities as when we see the various transcendental behaviours in the lilas?

 

i have not and i had not any problem.. the oneness is there.. but together with the separation

 

radha is not symbolic.. she's a complete EXISTING person, one with krsna and at the same time distinct from him to increase the pleasure of Him in relationating with her transcendental charachter, behaviour, love etc.

 

so no literalism but also no mayavadism

 

(your quotes are right and nice, but they do not say that the energies are not persons and do not contradict the infinite display of personality of these energies in the vedas, bhagavatam, mahabharata, ramayana and so on......... two dangers 1)god and his associates are common human.... 2)it is all mythology (the absolute truth is beyond the activities, lilas....)

 

 

[yasodanandana 0]

it's me...

[Guest guest]

many verses are there,one and the same,identical,

non different,no difference,one person two forms...

 

where are there the verses that say different ?

 

where are the verses that say Radha and Krsna are

not identical but one and different ?

not non different, but one and different ?

 

where is the source for this one and different concept

of Radha Krsna ?

 

There is a difference of form,dress,mood,personality,

etc.

 

But they are never described as being anything but identical,one and the same,non different, etc.

 

the concept of one and different should not be applied

by our mental concoction,when we choose to

speak against the shastric conclusions with our own

speculative interpretation,which is in direct contradiction

to shastra ,then we should renounce our interpretation

as being our speculation.

 

nowhere will you find Radha and Krsna described as one and

different,always you will find them described as one and

the same,identical,non different,etc.

 

nowhere will you find the jiva or material energy being

described as being identical,non different,one and the same

with God,always it is one and different.

 

the two concepts are in opposition,the jiva and god

are one and different,the material potency and Krsna

are one and different,not identical,not one and the same.

 

one and different means God and a partial energy of God,

the partial energy is one with God because it is comprised

of God,it is different then God because it is not

the supreme potency in full,part and parcel,

it is comprised of God but not God himself in full,

this is one and different.

 

Vishnu tattva are all one and the same,

all expansions and plenary

portions are fully God,not one and different,

not comprised of God but different from God,

Fully God,identical to each other in full,

one and the same,non different,identical.

 

They differ only in the form and amount of qualities

displayed,Krsna and Radha display the full array

of qualities among the male and female manifestations

of God,but they are all one and the same .

 

One God,in many forms,this is Vedic concept,

polytheism is incorrect,all incarnations of God

are one and the same,not one and different,

those are two different concepts,

one and different implies partial

or marginal energy of God,One with

God but not God Him/Her self,

Vishnu tattva is always one and the same,

never one and different.

 

any other definition is speculation and not

supported by vedic authority.

 

So when trying to describe the various incarnations,

expansions and plenary portions relationship

to each other,NEVER will you find that described

as one and different.

 

As i have shown,ALWAYS they are described as

one and the same.

 

So,in conclusion,Gaudiya thought is pure

mono theism,no where is the concept put forth of

more the a single all pervading,all powerfull

entity.

 

Rasa tattva if studied before these conclusions are

learned and realized, will result in polytheism,

as we have seen, they will argue that there is more

then One supreme person,that God becomes many Gods,

all sharing the same Godlike powers.

 

NOWHERE IS THIS SUPPORTED BY SHASTRA, OR BY THE BONA FIDE

SPIRITUAL MASTERS.

[gHari 0]

Why does God bother to feign pastimes with Himself in different forms in the Kingdom of God? Are the denizens of Vrindavan not as realized as you? They are pure cit yet are they still polytheists?

 

Perhaps it would prove meaningful to actually approach a bona fide spiritual master with these realizations. Your realizations are so high, they may not even be able to understand. You may be left with no one at all you can surrender to; all of them polytheists - a lone branch, the only pure tattva.

[Guest guest]

sridamasya sakhi dama-

damini dama-dharini

kailasini kesini ca

harid-ambara-dharini

-

 

She is Sridama's friend (sridamasya sakhi). She is glorious (dama-damini and dama-dharini). She is Parvati (kailasini). She has beautiful hair (kesini). She wears blue garments (harid-ambara-dharini).

 

 

tatharjuna-sakhi bhaumi

bhaimi bhima-kulodvaha

bhuvana mohana ksina

panasakta-tara tatha

-

 

She is Arjuna's friend (arjuna-sakhi), a resident of the earth (bhaumi), very exalted (bhaimi), born in an exalted family (bhima-kulodvaha), a resident of the material worlds (bhuvana), charming (mohana), slender (ksina), and fond of betelnuts (panasakta-tara).

 

 

vatsala kausala kala

karunarnava-rupini

svarga-laksmir bhumi-

laksmir draupadi pandava-priya

-

 

She is affectionate (vatsala), expert (kausala), beautiful (kala), and an ocean of mercy (karunarnava-rupini). She is heavenly opulence (svarga-laksmi) and earthly opulence (bhumi-laksmi). She is Draupadi (draupadi), who is dear to the Pandavas (pandava-priya).

 

 

hari-bhavana-sila ca

hari-tosana-tat-para

hari-prana hara-prana

siva-prana sivanvita

-

 

She meditates on Lord Hari (hari-bhavana-sila), and is dedicated to pleasing Lord Hari (hari-tosana-tat-para). She is Lord Hari's life and soul (hari-prana), Lord Siva's life and soul (hara-prana and siva-prana), and Lord Siva's companion (sivanvita).

 

anviksiki sastra-rupa

sastra-siddhanta-karini

nagendra naga-mata ca

krida-kautuka-rupini

-

 

She is the science of logic (anviksiki), the Vedas personified (sastra-rupa), the teacher of the Vedas' final conclusion (sastra-siddhanta-karini, the beloved of Lord Sesa (nagendra), the mother of the snakes (naga-mata) and playful and happy (krida-kautuka-rupini).

 

 

sitala savala hela

lila lavanya-mangala

vidyarthini vidyamana

vidya vidya-svarupini

-

 

She is pleasingly cool (sitala). She has a great variety of virtues (savala). She is happiness (hela) and playfulness (lila). She is beautiful and auspicious (lavanya-mangala). She is an earnest student (vidyarthini). She is known by the devotees (vidyamana). She is knowledge personified (vidya and vidya-svarupini).

 

krpanvita guna gaunya

gunatita-phala-prada

kusmanda-bhuta-vetala-

nasini saradanvita

-

 

She is merciful (krpanvita), virtuous (guna), and the most important (gaunya). She gives a result that is beyond the three modes of material nature (gunatita-phala-prada). She kills the kusmandas, bhutas, and vetalas (kusmanda-bhuta-vetala-nasini). She is glorious like autumn (saradanvita).

 

 

yaga-yoga-hara bhukti-

mukti-datri hiranya-da

kapala-malini devi

dhama-rupiny apurva-da

-

 

She gives the results of Vedic sacrififces (yaga-yoga-hara). She gives sense gratification and liberation (bhukti-mukti-datri). She gives gold (hiranya-da). As Durga-devi, She wears a garland of skulls (kapala-malini). She is a goddess (devi). Her form is splendid and glorious (dhama-rupini). She gives what has never been given before (apurva-da).

 

kama-prakasika kaminy

animady-asta-siddhi-da

yamini yamini-natha-

vadana yaminisvari

-

 

She is an amorous girl (kama-prakasika and kamini). She grants the eight mystic perfections, beginning with anima (animady-asta-siddhi-da). She is in control of Her senses (yamini) and She is the leader of all restrained, self-controlled girls (yamini-natha-vadana and yaminisvari).

 

 

sakalepsita-datri ca

saci sadhvi arundhati

pati-vrata pati-prana

pati-vakya-vinodini

asesa-sadhani kalpa-

vasini kalpa-rupini

-

 

She fulfills all desires (sakalepsita-datri). She is Saci (saci). She is saintly (sadhvi). She is Arundhati (arundhati). She is faithful to Her husband (pati-vrata). Her husband is Her very life (pati-prana). She delights in Her husband's words (pati-vakya-vinodini). She has the power to do anything (asesa-sadhani). All Her desires are automatically fulfilled (kalpa-vasini and kalpa-rupini).

 

 

brahma-visnu-sivardhanga-

harini saiva-simsapa

raksasi-nasini bhuta-

preta-prana-vinasini

-

 

She is the other half of Lord Visnu, Lord Siva, and Lord Brahma (brahma-visnu-sivardhanga-harini). She is Lord Siva's beloved (saiva-simsapa). She kills the demonesses (raksasi-nasini). She kills the bhutas and pretas (bhuta-preta-prana-vinasini).

 

krsnartha-vyakula krsna-

sara-carma-dhara subha

alakesvara-pujya ca

kuveresvara-vallabha

-

 

She is agitated with the desire to attain Lord Krsna (krsnartha-vyakula). She is the beloved of Lord Siva, who wears a deerskin (krsnasara-carma-dhara). She is beautiful (subha). She is worshiped by Kuvera (alakesvara-pujya) and She is dear to Kuvera's master, Lord Siva (kuveresvara-vallabha).

 

 

hari-sannidhya-datri ca

hari-kautuka-mangala

hari-prada hari-dvara

yamuna-jala-vasini

-

 

She stays by Lord Krsna's side (hari-sannidhya-datri). She is very happy to stay with Lord Krsna (hari-kautuka-mangala). She gives Lord Hari (hari-prada) and She is the door to Lord Hari (hari-dvara). She resides by the Yamuna (yamuna-jala-vasini).

 

 

kandarpa-koti-janani

kama-bija-pradayini

kama-sastra-vinoda ca

kama-sastra-prakasini

-

 

She is the mother of millions of Kamadevas (kandarpa-koti-janani). She gives the seed of the desire to attain Lord Krsna (kama-bija-pradayini). She is expert in the science of amorous pastimes (kama-sastra-vinoda and kama-sastra-prakasini).

 

hari-bhusana-bhusadhya-

nanda-yuktardra-.-ga

hai-hai-tala-dhara thai-thai-

sabda-sakti-prakasini

-

 

She is decorated with ornaments that decorate Lord Hari's ornaments (hari-bhusana-bhusadhya). She is blissful (ananda-yukta). She is half of Lord Lord Krsna (ardra-.-ga). She expertly beats the rhythm hai hai (hai-hai-tala-dhara) and the rhythm thai thai (thai-thai-sabda-sakti-prakasini).

 

ugra-rupa siva-kroda

krsna-kroda jalodari

mahodari maha-durga-

kantara-sustha-vasini

-

 

She manifests the terrible form of Durga-devi (ugra-rupa), where She sits on Lord Siva's lap (siva-kroda). She sits on Lord Krsna's lap (krsna-kroda). She rests on the milk-ocean (jalodari). She descends to the material world (mahodari). She happily lives in a great forest that is like an unapproachable fortress (maha-durga-kantara-sustha-vasini).

 

 

harini harini hara-

dharini kanakakrtih

vidyut-prabha vipra-mata

gopa-mata gayesvari

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She is beautiful as a doe (harini). She is captivating (harini). She wears a beautiful necklace (hara-dharini). Her form is golden (kanakakrti). She is splendid as lightning (vidyut-prabha). She is the mother of the brahmanas (vipra-mata), the mother of the gopas (gopa-mata). and the queen of Gaya (gayesvari).

 

 

 

 

krsnavatara-nirata

krsna-bhakta-phalarthini

yacakayacakananda-

karini yacakojjvala

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She devotedly serves Lord Krsna's incarnations (krsnavatara-nirata). She gives Lord Krsna's devotees the fruits of their services (krsna-bhakta-phalarthini) and whether they ask for it or not She gives them transcendental bliss (yacakayacakananda-karini). She gloriously appears before they who offer prayers to Her (yacakojjvala).

 

bhakty-atita bhakta-gatir

bhaktika siva-bhakti-da

siva-sakti-svarupa ca

sivardhanga-viharini

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By serving Her one crosses beyond the world of repeated birth and death (bhakty-atita), She is the goal of devotional service (bhakta-gati), She is devotional service (bhaktika), She gives auspicious devotional service (siva-bhakti-da), She is an auspicious potency of the Lord (siva-sakti-svarupa), and She enjoys pastimes as the beloved who is half the body of the auspicious Lord (sivardhanga-viharini).

[Guest guest]

"Why does God bother to feign pastimes with Himself in different forms in the Kingdom of God? Are the denizens of Vrindavan not as realized as you? They are pure cit yet are they still polytheists?"

 

they are under the illusory potency of yogamaya,

they only know that they live on earth,

with their best friends,no they are not self realized

as we can be,that would be rasa-bhasa,rasa mixed

with knowledge of Krsna's magnificence as the supreme

lord is not desired,they are not living life as great

scholars,or yogis,they live a life of pleasure pastimes

unaware of where they are and who they are with,

sometimes they may hear rumors of Krsna maybe being

some kind of deva,but that doesn't last,it would

interrupt the flow of casual love.

 

 

"Perhaps it would prove meaningful to actually approach a bona fide spiritual master with these realizations. Your realizations are so high, they may not even be able to understand. You may be left with no one at all you can surrender to; all of them polytheists - a lone branch, the only pure tattva"

 

if they do not know these conclusions,then they will,

it would be impertinent and aparadha to assume

what you are ignorant of everyone else is

as well.

[Guest guest]

"There is a difference of form,dress,mood,personality,

etc."

••••• yes personality is the key word... the expansions are personalities.. personality means difference in name, form, activities..

 

so, at the same time, radha is krsna, but radha is also a different personality (as you have said now.. and as i say from 2003)

 

call it oneness in difference, call it tomato, spaceship, macintosh... call it as you want, but the concept is clear

 

-----the thing of the demostration is a false problem: you are bringing statements to demonstrate that radha is not a different tattva from krishna and it is right........ and from the jaya radha madhava song to the krsna book to the 10th canto there's a huge description on how radha is a complete and beautiful personality who takes decisions, who has sentiments, feelings , intelligence, charme, thoughts etc... and it is right, because lilas are not legends or allegory or mythology.. they are the supreme reality with nothing beyond... so use the terminology that you prefere but we have to say that in RADHA is KRSNA, but RADHA is also RADHA.. a person

 

"They differ only in the form and amount of qualities

displayed,Krsna and Radha display the full array

of qualities among the male and female manifestations

of God,but they are all one and the same"

•••again you are using the form concept.. different form and one and the same... form means person, svarupa, sat cit ananda rupa...

 

so you do not like "oneness in difference"? you like more "one and the same?"... ok, you win the religious language technical award and i lose... radha and krsna are one and the same and at the same time radha is a person.. and person introduce a kind of distinction, difference, variety ... so use your favorite terms but the thing to say is this, in my opinion...

 

 

hare krishna

 

("non different,no difference,one person two forms..."

•••••form means person in the spiritual realm.. there's no illusory forms created by maya.. so NO DIFFERENCE, ONE PERSON and TWO PERSONS at the same time)

 

.

.

.

.

 

9) Jaya Radha-Madhava

 

(from Gitavali)

 

(jaya) radha-madhava (jaya) kunja-bihari

(jaya) gopi-jana-vallabha (jaya) giri-vara-dhari

(jaya) jasoda-nandana, (jaye) braja-jana-ranjana,

(jaya) jamuna-tira-vana-cari

 

TRANSLATION

 

Krsna is the lover of Radha. He displays many amorous pastimes in the groves of Vrndavana, He is the lover of the cowherd maidens of Vraja, the holder of the great hill named Govardhana, the beloved son of mother Yasoda, the delighter Of the inhabitants of Vraja, and He wanders in the forests along the banks of the River Yamuna.

 

(it is all real.. not mytology, allegory, simbolism, politheism, there's actions, realtionships and exchanges (rasa) and this is possible only between individuals.. even if direct expansions of sri krsna)