Radharani: Another Stupid Question

[gHari 0]

They weren't questions.

[Guest guest]

the same phenomenon with you bringing quotes that in my comprehension give value to what i am saying:

 

me: the energies are not abstract.. so the hladini shakti is an internal energy of krishna and a complete separate individual with a full real autonomy and freedom

baladeva vidyabusana: the Supreme Lord manifests many different forms. Each of these forms is the same perfect, complete, and pure Supreme Lord.

 

the word is form, and form in the spiritual world means person, and person means individual, and individual indicates a sort of separation and freedom. We use the word form, rupa, svarupa, satcitananda rupa, to indicate realities, persons, personalities not symbols, images or shapes

 

this condition is not like anything in the material world and obviously it is impossible to explain clearly with our words, and in my opinion you, attempting to give a material, intellectual, mental explaination of these tattvas you are too much on the side of the oneness. And obviously the oneness in the material world is in opposition to the variety.. so making this wrong parallelism, you are basically negating the existence of a real variety in the spiritual world making it worse than the material one. Here (matter) there's many, there (vaikunta) we have only one, here there's variety, there the variety is lacking.

 

obviously if one comes to me saying "how is that god has a fiancee? it is not an human behaviour?" i surely will use all your suggestion to correct this mistake speaking more on the side of the oneness.. in this way i think that the acharyas are preaching, more on the side of the variety defending the lilas from impersonalists who are saying that they are mere allegories in a world with only one living being.. and more on the oneness if one is on the gross materialist side.

 

so we can perhaps say that the truth is in the middle, or more precisely that this middle will be revealed when we will have the complete perception of the spiritual world.. for now there's only to say that polytheism is a mistake and impersonalism is another mistake. In my deep ignorance i do not think to fall in any of the two deviations.

 

i am a subtle demon, not a gross one, politheism is not enough complicated for my gratification :-)

 

hare krishna

[gHari 0]

Adi 4.56:<blockquote><font color=red><center>

rAdhA-kRSNa eka AtmA, dui deha dhari'

anyonye vilase rasa AsvAdana kari'

</center>

rAdhA-kRSNa--RAdhA and KRSNa; eka--one; AtmA--self; dui--two; deha--bodies; dhari'--assuming; anyonye--one another; vilase--They enjoy; rasa--the mellows of love; AsvAdana kari'--tasting.

</font>

RAdhA and KRSNa are one and the same, but They have assumed two bodies. Thus They enjoy each other, tasting the mellows of love.

 

PURPORT

The two transcendentalists RAdhA and KRSNa are a puzzle to materialists. The above description of RAdhA and KRSNa from the diary of SrIla SvarUpa DAmodara GosvAmI is a condensed explanation, but one needs great spiritual insight to understand the mystery of these two personalities. One is enjoying in two. SrI KRSNa is the potent factor, and SrImatI RAdhArANI is the internal potency. According to VedAnta philosophy, there is no difference between the potent and the potency; they are identical. We cannot differentiate between one and the other, any more than we can separate fire from heat.

 

Everything in the Absolute is inconceivable in relative existence. Therefore in relative cognizance it is very difficult to assimilate this truth of the oneness between the potent and the potency. The philosophy of inconceivable oneness and difference propounded by Lord Caitanya is the only source of understanding for such intricacies of transcendence.</blockquote>

[Guest guest]

Everything in the Absolute is inconceivable in relative existence. Therefore in relative cognizance it is very difficult to assimilate this truth of the oneness between the potent and the potency.

 

athapi te deva padambuja-dvaya-

prasada-lesanugrhita eva hi

janati tattvamm bhagavan-mahimno

na canya eko 'pi ciram vicinvan

 

(Bhag. 10.14.29)

 

"My Lord, if one is favored by even a slight trace of the mercy of Your lotus feet, he can understand the greatness of Your personality. But those who speculate to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead are unable to know You, even though they continue studying the Vedas for many years."

[gHari 0]

Were faked?

[Guest guest]

 

If we want to understand the transcendental position of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then we have to go through guru, guru-parampara system. Otherwise it is not possible. Rupa-raghunatha pade hoibe akuti. Unless we accept this process, unless we submit... This whole process is submission. Krsna wants this. Sarva-dharman parityajya [bg. 18.66]. So if you want to approach Krsna, you have to become very submissive. And to whom? "Krsna is not here. To whom I shall submit?" No. To His devotee, to His representative. The business is submission. So Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared this day for giving mercy to the fallen souls who are so foolish, they cannot take to Krsna consciousness. He is personally teaching how to take to Krsna consciousness. And that is this kirtana. You'll find. You have seen the picture in our Teachings of Lord Caitanya that in Prayag He was engaged in chanting, and Rupa Gosvami is offering his obeisances. That is the first meeting with Rupa Gosvami, and he composed this verse, namo maha-vadanyaya krsna-prema-pradaya te... [Cc. Madhya 19.53].

 

Devotees: ...krsnaya krsna-caitanya-namne gaura-tvise namah.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. So this is channah-avatara. He's Krsna, He has come to give you krsna-prema, but He's acting like a Krsna devotee.

 

 

So Krsna taught everything for becoming Krsna conscious, but still, we are so rascal we could not understand Krsna. Therefore Krsna came again: "These rascals failed to understand Me, and now I shall teach how to become a devotee of Krsna by My personal behavior." That is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, by His personal... Don't think that because He's playing the part... Just like somebody is giving massage to my body. So he's not giving properly. So immediately I take his hand and I began to give massage, "Do like this. Do like this." That does not mean I am masseur or I am servant of that person. Similarly, don't forget that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. Sri-krsna-caitanya radha-krsna nahe anya. You are worshiping Radha-Krsna, and there is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Deity also. There are some parties, they protest, "Why Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Deity should be placed along with Krsna?" But they do not know Sri-krsna-caitanya radha-krsna nahe anya. It is not different.

 

So Sri Krsna Caitanya is Krsna. It is confirmed by the Sastras. Here it is said, channah kalau yad abhava. In the Kali-yuga, directly He does not appear as the incarnation like Nrsimhadeva or Vamanadeva or Lord Ramacandra, yes, but as devotee. So He's the same incarnation, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Abhavat. "Therefore sometimes You are called as tri-yuga." There are four yugas, but He is known... Because in three yugas He appears distinctly, and in the fourth yuga, the Kali-yuga, as devotee, therefore He's called tri-yuga.

So today is the birthday or appearance day of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and this is the birthplace, this Mayapura, and you are all present here. It is a good fortune. Always remember Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and chant Sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu-nityananda...

 

Devotees: ...Sri-advaita gadadhara Srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrnda.

 

Prabhupada: This will make your life perfect. Thank you very much.

 

[Guest guest]

"First of all we must understand what is spirit and what is Krsna and what is Radharani, and then we try to understand what is Krsna and Radharani's loving affairs.

 

So here it is said that Krsna is feeling how Radharani is so much attracted. So much attracted. That is feeling. Now, Krsna is omniscient. He knows everything. Why He should feel like that? The feeling ?, that He knows, but for our understanding, He is displaying, He's manifesting Himself, that "Radharani's loving affairs is so great and unlimited, even though I am omniscient, I cannot understand it."

 

yavan aham yatha-bhavo

yad-rupa-guna-karmakah

tathaiva tattva-vijnanam

astu te mad-anugrahat

 

 

"By My causeless mercy, be enlightened in truth about My personality, manifestations, qualities and pastimes."

 

"The transcendental personal forms of the Lord are a mystery, and the symptoms of these forms, which are absolutely different from anything made of mundane elements, are also mysterious. The innumerable forms of the Lord, such as Syamasundara, Narayana, Rama and Gaurasundara; the colors of these forms (white, red, yellow, cloudlike syama and others); His qualities, as the responsive Personality of Godhead to pure devotees and as impersonal Brahman to dry speculators; His uncommon activities like lifting Govardhana Hill, marrying more than sixteen thousand queens at Dvaraka, and entering the rasa dance with the damsels of Vraja, expanding Himself in as many forms as there were damsels in the dance--these and innumerable other uncommon acts and attributes are all mysteries, one aspect of which is presented in the scientific knowledge of the Bhagavad-gita, which is read and adored all over the world by all classes of scholars, with as many interpretations as there are empiric philosophers. The truth of these mysteries was revealed to Brahma by the descending process, without the help of the ascending one. His mercy descends to a devotee like Brahma and, through Brahma, to Narada, from Narada to Vyasa, from Vyasadeva to Sukadeva and so on in the bona fide chain of disciplic succession. We cannot discover the mysteries of the Lord by our mundane endeavors; they are only revealed, by His grace, to the proper devotees. These mysteries are gradually disclosed to the various grades of devotees in proportion to the gradual development of their service attitude."

 

[gHari 0]

<blockquote>"The philosophy of inconceivable oneness and difference propounded by Lord Caitanya is the only source of understanding for such intricacies of transcendence."</blockquote>

Gauranga is saved from the mentalists. Hari Hari bolo.

 

 

[Guest guest]

you need to consider that a thousand times we see all

Visnu tattva described as,identical with each other, one and the same,non different,no difference,etc.We never see the jiva called

non different,identical,no difference,one and the same

with Visnu tattva,always,always,it is one and different.

 

then Srila Prabhupada says these things are difficult to understand for those without the right cognizant ability,

obviously for the less intelligent this seems

to be beyond their limited ability,

they should consider acintya bhedabheda,one and difference to help them understand.

 

so we can understand that one and difference has different

meanings depending on how it is used.

 

The jivas and Visnu are one and different in one way,

the jiva is compared to a spark of a fire,

the fire is Visnu.

 

The jiva is conscious energy,Visnu is conscious energy,

they are one in quality,both are made of Visnu.

 

the spark is heat and light,the fire is heat and light.

 

they are different also,the jiva is a tiny part

and parcel of Visnu,the spark is a tiny part

and parcel of the flame.

 

So for the jiva and Visnu we always are told

one and different,one in quality,different

in quantity,different also in identity,

visnu and jiva share the same consciousness

but the jiva is present only in his body,

visnu is all pervading.

 

Visnu tattva is different,one and different in a completly

different conception.

 

They are not sparks of a fire,they are all the fire itself,

they are not limited to their body,they are all pervading,

so what is the difference ?

 

The only difference is in the amount of qualities

displayed in a particular form,they are all

manifestations of the All pervading supreme

lord,do not make the foolish mistake of

thinking there are many all pervading

entities, there is One all pervading God,

the forms that One God takes are one and different

only in the way that one God manifests.

 

 

from the Govinda Bhasya

 

"The Supreme Lord is identical with each of His forms. They are all Him. That a certain form of the Lord is His original form, or an expansion of that form, or an expansion of the expansion is determined only by how much of His powers the Lord chooses to display when He manifests that form. Only in that way are some forms of the Lord considered higher and others less high. The great devotees of the Lord declare:

 

The Lord’s forms are considered greater or lesser on the basis of how much of His transcendental power the Lord chooses to manifest when He reveals them.”

 

"As a vaidürya jewel manifests many different colors, so the

Supreme Lord manifests many different forms. Each of these forms

is the same perfect, complete, and pure Supreme Lord. In some

forms the Lord displays all His qualities, and other forms the

Lord does not display all His qualities. Therefore a wise devotee

may meditate on all the Lords qualities, as described in the

scriptures, as being present in the particular form of the Lord

that is chosen for worship".(all forms of

the lord possess all of the qualities of the

lord in full, they just display a varying amount)

 

 

"Both Lord Hari and His associates are the same persons in

both previous and subsequent actions. Why is that? The sütra

explains: "sarväbhedäd" because of complete non-

difference. This means that because there is no difference

in Their personalities, the same Lord Hari and the same associates present in the previous actions are also present in the subsequent actions. That Lord Hari remains one even though He

expands into many forms is confirmed in the Gopäla-täpané

Upaniñad in these words:

 

eko 'pi san bahudhä yo 'vabhäti

 

"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."

 

Also, in the Småti-sästra it is said:

 

ekäneka-svarüpäya

 

"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."

This is also true of the Lord's liberated associates, who remain one even though they appear in many forms."

 

 

"The forms of the Supreme Lord are undivided. They

are all full of eternity, knowledge, infinity, and bliss.

 

In this way it is said that although the Lord's forms

present a very wonderful variety, still They are all one in

essence. Although this truth was also described in sütra 3.2.14,

the merciful teacher of Vedänta repeats the same teaching so this very difficult topic may be clearly understood."

 

so here we see the meaning of one and different in Visnu tattva,it is not the same as one and different with

jiva tattva,two different concepts,the same words

used to describe,the intelligent person can distinguish

between the two.

 

So ghari has stated

 

Gauranga is saved from the mentalists. Hari Hari bolo.

 

You have "saved" Gauranga ?

 

 

Nityananda is saving us from those who wish us

to not use our mental faculties ,who wish us to submit to

their neophyte conception,and to submit to them as our savoir,and indeed the lords savoir.

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Guest guest]

I give the understanding by which they can come to Me

 

 

radha-purna-sakti, krsna-purna-saktiman

dui vastu bheda nai, sastra-paramana

radha-krsna aiche sadaeka-i svarupa

lila-rasa asvadite dhare dui-rupa

(Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 4.96,98)

 

"There is no difference between the energy and the energetic, sakti-saktiman abhina. Therefore there is no difference between Radha and Krsna. Radha is purna-sakti and Krsna is purna-saktiman, so there is no difference, but, lila-rasa asvadite dhare dui-rupa, to relish the mellow of pastimes two bodies are there, Radha and Krsna, otherwise they are one. So in Vraja-lila there are two bodies, Radha and Krsna, visaya and asraya. But in the form of Gauranga They are one. Radha and Krsna combined together. Krsna assuming the mood and complexion of Radharani appears and that is Gauranga. This is the tattva, and that is a very deep and confidential tattva."

 

siddhanta alasa jana anartha to chade na

jade krsna bhrama kori krsna seva kore na

 

"One who is lazy in properly understanding the Vaisnava philosophical conclusions can never become free from anarthas, the unwanted bad habits and philosophical misconceptions that impede devotional service. One who mistakes Krishna as belonging to the material plane can never render actual service to the Lord."

 

 

siddhanta vihina hoile krsne citta lage na

sambandha hinera kabhyu abhideya haya na

 

"Without knowledge of transcendental truth (siddhanta), no one's heart can ever be spiritually attuned with Lord Krishna. If one lacks knowledge of his relationship with Krishna (sambandha), then proper execution of devotional service in relationship to Him (abidheya) is impossible."

 

TEXT 81

tara madhye vraie nana bhava-rasa-bhede

krsnake karaya rasadika-lilasvade

 

TRANSLATION

Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.

 

PURPORT

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[Guest guest]

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm,

Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the

ecstatic potency (hladini). Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody

extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with

ever-blissful spiritual rasa."

 

Jiva Goswami elaborates

 

"Nija-rupataya kalabhih. The gopis are Krsna's power. They cannot be parakiya in

the eyes of tattva-siddhanta. They are the same as Krsna. They are the power of

Krsna. They are also not the wives of any gopas, cowherd men, of Vrndavana.

They are all beloved of Krsna, and they are not different from Him. Thus, by

tattva, they are svakiya. (Sva means 'own' and kiya means sampatti, wealth.)

This means they are of Krsna, Krsna's own, and they are His power."

 

Baladeva Vidyabhusana comments;

 

"By touching the goddess of fortune, who is actually Himself, the Lord enjoys transcendental bliss.

It is like a person gazing at his own handsomeness in a mirror

 

Different from His spiritual potency (parä sakti) is the potency of the Lord's form (svarüpa-sakti). The Sruti-sästras and other scriptures explain

that through the svarüpa-sakti the Supreme Lord manifests as the best of males,

and through the parä sakti the Lord manifests His various transcendental

qualities.

 

Manifesting as the Lord's pleasure

potency (hlädiné Sakti), the parä Sakti appears as Sri Rädhä, the jewel of teenage girls.

 

So here He explains that the Lords qualities are manifested through

the para-sakti,And what is the manifestation ?

That is Radha,the hladini sakti ,the lords qualities are manifested

in the enjoying of pleasure,Through the svarupa-sakti the lord

manifests as the best of males, but it is Radha who is manifesting

the lords various transcendental qualities.

 

so even though it is explained that Krsna is actually the

Goddess Himself,and when He touches Her it is like He

is looking in a mirror,still this is bringing transcedntal bliss.

How is this ?

 

Baladeva Vidyabhusana explains

 

"Is it not true that amorous love is

possible only when there are two: the lover and the beloved? If

there is no difference between the lover and the beloved, then

love is not possible between them.

 

Although the Lord and His parä sakti are not different,

still, for enjoying different pastimes,

They are manifested as different.

In this way the Lord's desires are perfectly and

completely fulfilled."

 

"Even though the Lord's potency and the Lord Himself, the shelter of that potency, are one,

still, because the Lord is the best of males and His potency is the jewel of young girls, when They are together there is naturally the perfection of blissful amorous pastimes."

 

 

"when They are together there is naturally the perfection of blissful amorous pastimes."

 

here we have the answer, blissful amorous pastimes

are perfected by their rasa,in other words their

rasa is for the sake of perfecting lila,

perfecting the pastimes of Vraja.

 

so the truth is it takes two to tango, the pastimes

of the lord are manifested for the ecstacy they bring,

although Radha and Krsna are the central figures

of the lila,their rasa is compared to one looking

into a mirror.

 

 

 

radha-purna-sakti, krsna-purna-saktiman

dui vastu bheda nai, sastra-paramana

radha-krsna aiche sadaeka-i svarupa

lila-rasa asvadite dhare dui-rupa

(Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 4.96,98)

 

"There is no difference between the energy and the energetic, sakti-saktiman abhina. Therefore there is no difference between Radha and Krsna. Radha is purna-sakti and Krsna is purna-saktiman, so there is no difference, but, lila-rasa asvadite dhare dui-rupa, to relish the mellow of pastimes two bodies are there, Radha and Krsna, otherwise they are one. So in Vraja-lila there are two bodies, Radha and Krsna, visaya and asraya. But in the form of Gauranga They are one. Radha and Krsna combined together. Krsna assuming the mood and complexion of Radharani appears and that is Gauranga. This is the tattva, and that is a very deep and confidential tattva."

 

 

tara madhye vraie nana bhava-rasa-bhede

krsnake karaya rasadika-lilasvade

 

TRANSLATION

Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.

 

PURPORT

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

 

 

 

Our conception of God changes as our position

our understanding changes,the closer we get to

God our conception of God changes accordingly.

 

If you are on a ship at sea on your way home,

when you get close to land you can see a mountain

from a great distance,on that mountain is your home.

 

When you spot that mountain from sea at first it looks

like a cloud,it is from a great distance and is hard

to distinguish from clouds.

 

When we first learn of God we have a fuzzy concept

of God,we understand God from a great distance,

we have some small understanding and we use that to guide us closer.

 

as we sail closer to our mountain home it becomes

more defined,we can make out a clear outline of the

mountain,as we sail closer we can see snow at the top,

as we sail even closer we can make out trees and homes

on the mountain.

 

The closer we get to God,our conception changes,

it is no longer fuzzy ,we no longer see God

as a mysterious vague thing in the distance,

as we get closer we can understand more and more

things about God,God is a person,God has

pastimes,etc.

 

when we dock our ship and start climbing the mountain

to get home the mountain is still the same

as before, but we have gotten so close that

it is no longer a vague shape,or a large

object in the distance,we can now see people,

animals,flowers,etc

 

As you get closer to God your conception of god

changes,from a vague power to a person with

pastimes,as you get closer still these pastimes

become clearer and you can view them up close,

in full detail, in the sastra.

 

finally you come to your home,from a great distance

you could not see the home, you could see a vague

shape,then a clear outline,then trees and houses,

then people and flowers,then up close you sit in your home,

and hug your familiy and friends,they were always there,

but you couldn't see them till you walked into

the home,at a distance they were not seen.

 

so our conception changes as we change,when we first

have a conception of God it may be a vague fuzzy concept

of a great and powerfull mystery.

 

As we get closer we find out God is a person,

with pastimes of love,God has a human form

both male and female to enjoy pastimes.

 

As we get closer we find out we can take part

in those pastimes,the entrance to those pastimes

is the development of love and desire to serve

God as a parent,a friend, a lover.

 

As we get closer we are guided to see God as our lover,

the rasa of conjugal love as being the closest and highest possible relationship and understanding we can have.

 

We see God as a boy,and conjugal love to God as meaning

we need to become like a girl,to give the most intimate

service and relationship of love to God.

 

But then we get closer,We see God enjoys as a girl,we thought God

was a boy, and God was, until we got closer,

then we come to notice God more intimately,

God is a female.

 

As we get closer to God our conception changes to accomodate

that,we go from seeing God as a great and powerfull

mystery to seeing a beautiful young girl,we change

from obeying God as a Father,to seeing God

as our boyfriend,to finally up close and personal,

we see God as our girlfriend.

 

In this way rasa is described as refining sugar,

first the sugar cane,then the juice, then the thick

paste,then the granulated sugar,then rock candy,

successively sweeter ,rasa is understood, as we

get closer and closer,from the sugar cane to rock

candy,from Vishnu to Radha, God is always the same,

it is we who change,it is our relationsip that changes,

becoming closer,sweet,sweeter,sweetest.

 

Krsna said, when giving His blessings to Uddhava

 

na tatha me priyatama atmayonir na sankarah

na ca sankarsano na srir naivatma ca yatha bhavan

 

"Neither Brahma nor Siva are as dear to Me as you; My elder brother Sankarsana is not as dear to Me as you, nor even Laksmi Devi. Even My own Self is not as dear to Me as you."

 

Also Krsna said;

"Among my favorites Brahma is dear to Me.

Lakshmi, ever residing on my chest, is dearer than Brahma.

Radha is yet dearer, and my devotees are dearer still.

Dearest of all is Shankara (Siva); no one is dearer than He.

My heart resides with my devotees, My life with Radha.

My Self with Sankara, who is dearer than My life."

 

 

Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana has told us;

As a vaidürya jewel manifests many different colors, so the

Supreme Lord manifests many different forms. Each of these forms

is the same perfect, complete, and pure Supreme Lord. In some

forms the Lord displays all His qualities, and other forms the

Lord does not display all His qualities. Therefore a wise devotee

may meditate on all the Lords qualities, as described in the

scriptures, as being present in the particular form of the Lord

that is chosen for worship".

 

About Radhika

 

hari-sannidhya-datri ca

hari-kautuka-mangala

hari-prada hari-dvara

yamuna-jala-vasini

-

 

She stays by Lord Krsna's side (hari-sannidhya-datri). She is very happy to stay with Lord Krsna (hari-kautuka-mangala). She gives Lord Hari (hari-prada) and She is the door to Lord Hari (hari-dvara). She resides by the Yamuna (yamuna-jala-vasini).

 

 

krsnartha-vyakula krsna-

sara-carma-dhara subha

alakesvara-pujya ca

kuveresvara-vallabha

-

 

She is agitated with the desire to attain Lord Krsna (krsnartha-vyakula). She is the beloved of Lord Siva, who wears a deerskin (krsnasara-carma-dhara). She is beautiful (subha). She is worshiped by Kuvera (alakesvara-pujya) and She is dear to Kuvera's master, Lord Siva (kuveresvara-vallabha).

 

 

brahma-visnu-sivardhanga-

harini saiva-simsapa

raksasi-nasini bhuta-

preta-prana-vinasini

-

 

She is the other half of Lord Visnu, Lord Siva, and Lord Brahma (brahma-visnu-sivardhanga-harini). She is Lord Siva's beloved (saiva-simsapa). She kills the demonesses (raksasi-nasini). She kills the bhutas and pretas (bhuta-preta-prana-vinasini).

 

hari-bhavana-sila ca

hari-tosana-tat-para

hari-prana hara-prana

siva-prana sivanvita

-

 

She meditates on Lord Hari (hari-bhavana-sila), and is dedicated to pleasing Lord Hari (hari-tosana-tat-para). She is Lord Hari's life and soul (hari-prana), Lord Siva's life and soul (hara-prana and siva-prana), and Lord Siva's companion (sivanvita).

 

vatsala kausala kala

karunarnava-rupini

svarga-laksmir bhumi-

laksmir draupadi pandava-priya

-

 

She is affectionate (vatsala), expert (kausala), beautiful (kala), and an ocean of mercy (karunarnava-rupini). She is heavenly opulence (svarga-laksmi) and earthly opulence (bhumi-laksmi). She is Draupadi (draupadi), who is dear to the Pandavas (pandava-priya).

 

sridamasya sakhi dama-

damini dama-dharini

kailasini kesini ca

harid-ambara-dharini

-

 

She is Sridama's friend (sridamasya sakhi). She is glorious (dama-damini and dama-dharini). She is Parvati (kailasini). She has beautiful hair (kesini). She wears blue garments (harid-ambara-dharini).

 

yasasvini yasogamya

yasodananana-vallabha

damodara-priya gopi

gopananda-kari tatha

-

 

She is famous (yasasvini and yasogamya), the beloved of Yasoda's son (yasodananana-vallabha), dear to Lord Damodara (damodara-priya), a cowherd girl (gopi), and the giver of happiness to the gopas (gopananda-kari).

 

ekanga sarvaga sevya

brahma-patni sarasvati

rasa-priya rasa-gamya

rasadhisthatr-devata

-

 

She has one form (ekanga). She is all-pervading (sarvaga), the supreme object of worship (sevya), Brahma's wife (brahma-patni), Goddess Sarasvati (sarasvati), fond of the rasa dance (rasa-priya), the girl Lord Krsna approaches in the rasa dance (rasa-gamya), and the predominating Deity of the rasa dance (rasadhisthatr-devata).

 

rasika rasikananda

svayam rasesvari para

rasa-mandala-madhyastha

rasa-mandala-sobhita

-

 

She enjoys the transcendental mellows (rasika) and tastes the bliss of the transcendental mellows (rasikananda). She is the queen of the rasa dance (svayam rasesvari), transcendental (para), the girl who stays in the middle of the rasa dance circle (rasa-mandala-madhyastha), and the girl who beautifies the rasa dance circle (rasa-mandala-sobhita).

 

isvari sarva-vandya ca

gopaniya subhankari

palini sarva-bhutanam

tatha kamanga-harini

-

 

She is the supreme controller (isvari), worshiped by all (sarva-vandya), reclusive (gopaniya), the giver of auspiciousness (subhankari), the protectress of all living entities (palini sarva-bhutanam), and the wife of Lord Siva who destroyed Kamadeva's body (kamanga-harini).

 

nilambara-vidhatri ca

nilakantha-priya tatha

bhagini bhagini bhogya

krsna-bhogya bhagesvari

-

 

She is dressed in blue garments (nilambara-vidhatri). She is Lord Siva's beloved (nilakantha-priya). She is beautiful (bhagini, bhagini, and bhogya), Lord Krsna's happiness (krsna-bhogya), and the queen of transcendental opulences (bhagesvari).

 

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada wanted to present Gaudiya Vaisnavism in a way

that wasn't exclusively trying to lead the practitioner into

a conception of service as that being expounded by many

other vaisnavas,there are many who

present everything slanted towards

manjari bhava,everything is presented with the ultimate

goal of initiation into the so called practice and mentality

of imagining oneself to be a manjari.

 

This is very damaging to neophytes,what do you think the average

person will think when they learn that they are supposed to consider

themselves as littel girls internally ?

 

Not only is this damaging to the young men and boys who come into

contact with this type of approach but it is demonstrably

false, it is an incorrect assessment of Gaudiya thought,

The service of Radha Krsna in vraja is not all geared for the

jiva to become a manjari and all else as beneath that service,

with that kind of preaching who will like to consider themselves

not up to the task of becomng " the most you can be" ?

 

Gaudiya thought leaves that realm up to the individual to realize,

those who insist on eliminating all other avenues of approach

to rasa are ignorant of the true nature of that lila,they have a purpose,

and that purpose is to utilize all relevent concepts to bring about

the desired conception,they will use the writings of the acaryas

to wring out a conception that fits into their propaganda

schema.

 

so i have no real ill will towards those who want to teach Gaudiya

Vaisnavism with a particular slant towards manjari bhava as all in all,

but Srila Prabhupada was very much against that perception

of Mahaprabhus mission,He presented the idea that ones rasa

is personal and is revealed as the devotee is eligable,

otherwise we will be presenting a feminizing form of religion,

which is not only detrimental to boys and men but is factually

an inaccurate portrayel of rasa lila.

[yasodanandana 0]

you have a no so pleasant tendence to accuse the ones who have a different opinion of many deviations and demonic tendences, They are polytheist, anti gaudya, anti prabhupada, sahajia etc. etc., and they display these tendence with the purpose to bring in their deviation other people.

And this is too excessive and obviously not at all mercyful, because you do not recognize in the others the simple will to debate for a better understanding and the legitimate tendency to change idea only when it appear to them sure and clear and not for a dogma or imposition.

 

I assure you that i am in these days speaking with devotees, also very expert devotees, also prabhupada disciples and so on, who, given the link of our thread, they are more on my and ghari's side and they are judging your position somewhat too close to impersonalism or monism.

 

""The philosophy of inconceivable oneness and difference propounded by Lord Caitanya is the only source of understanding for such intricacies of transcendence."

 

this phrase is judged from me and others who i have spoken very risolutive to say that the truth stay in a middle position between oneness and variety or better, it stays entirely in the spiritual world, being surely different from your "monism/symbolism/allegory" etc. and the polytheism that you use as an accuse to your opponents..

 

and this approach is somewhat problematic also in our old discussion on the spiritual master with the impression that when one is close to god, basing his existence directly or indirectly by him (it does not matter), there's a depersonalization and the individual if not already a simple dress worn by krsna, he loses all his personality, qualities and will and becames a robot, a dress, a leather suit and so on.

 

but this is not the main problem, we can live with opinion differences... the main problem, in my opinion, is that you behave as you believe that who is speaking differently by you is without doubt insincere, speculative and offensive with acharyas.

 

so, speaking to you as a friend, believe me or not, me and others have a little will to read the scriptures, we have some respect for the acharyas, we keep as valuable your ideas otherwise it would be not a source of discussion, but our comprehension is sincerely different by yours and we feel clearly the difference between what we are saying and a polytheism or a sahajaism.

 

so do not change your ideas but i think it is better for you to be more subtle in judging others and their sincerity.. (the xeroxed accuse of sahajaism is especially bad... otherwise my false ego would have abandoned the field 24 hours ago) /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

someone asked me

 

 

Why is it that u think focusing on "gopi bhav" will not be good for male self esteem?

Actually gopi bhav has nothing to do with mundane conceptions of male or female - u know that.

Bhakti in any of its manifestations can only be an empowering thing for anybody.

By thinking about, hearing or reciting the lilas of Shyamsundar and Sri Kishoriji with their parikaras - one will only feel joy and joy and joy.

I didn't understand your point.

 

 

 

manjari bhava as presented by the proponents of

"raganuga" sadhana,the mental visualization of oneself

as a young girl, is stupid to preach about

at the same time you are part of a preaching mission,

(what male in his right mind will be attracted to bhakti yoga

when they are told the "advanced" yogis fantasize

about being little girls ?)

it is also an incorrect assessment of Sri Caitanyas teachings,

rasa between jiva and God is something that is revealed

by God,if you try and present the "highest" path as that of

manjari bhava within the "raganuga" meditation and self

conception,then you are wrong,period.

What person will like to think of himself as not qualified

for the highest thing?,who won't try to be all they

can be ? if manjari bhava is presented as it is

being done that only will create a class of ignorant

self absorbed egotists who are in reality the exact opposite

of the "highest of the high" .

 

In essence the whole thing is worship of yourself in the guise

of bhakti, seeing yourself and your position as the center of

of your consciousness,it is factually an impediment to

suddha bhakti not a manifestation.

 

the real bhakti yogi is on the path of realization of the presence

of Sri Radha Krsna within everything at all times including

his own mind, the focus is on becoming conscious

of God directly ,then by that ,actual experience of rasa is given to

to you,directly,this is actual bhakti yoga,

the false form of the so called "raganuga" that some inexperienced

people propagate is a form of self worship and distraction of the real

path of the bhakti yogi,they want to engage in some self focused

meditation of sense enjoyment in some future lila, the real bhakti

yogi is dealing in the here and now, dealing with Radha Krsna

here and now, they do not attempt some fantasy of some

future rasa, they are engaged in direct rasa at all times.