Heterosexual & Homosexual Vaisnavas;Who Is Sinful? Who are we?

[Guest guest]

Heterosexual & Homosexual Vaisnavas

Who Is Sinful? Who are we?

by Prabhupada dasa Adhikari

 

Posted June 10, 2003

 

[1] BG 3/16: "My dear Arjuna, a man who does not follow this prescribed Vedic system of sacrifice certainly leads a life of sin, for a person delighting only in the senses lives in vain."

 

[2] Disciples and followers of His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami have been instructed to conduct their sexual activities as follows. This applies to heterosexual couples who have been married by prescribed fire sacrifice.

 

1. Married couples may engage in the procreative act once per month at the time most auspicious for conception.

 

2. On the day of conception the husband makes an announcement to the community, stating their attempt at procreation and asking for the blessings of the assembled Vaisnavas.

 

3. Before the procreative act they chant 50 rounds.

 

[3] Married couples who engage in "recreational sexual intercourse" outside of the above requirments are engaging in illicit sex.

 

[4] Homosexual couples who engage in "recreational sexual intercourse" are engaged in illicit sex.

 

 

 

--

 

Considerations

 

[1] If a married couple engage in "sex play" that does not lead to orgasm are they engaged in illicit sex?"

 

[2] If a homosexual couple engage in "sex play" that does not lead to orgasm are they engaged in illicit sex?"

 

[3] Does the fire sacrifice establishing an authorized marriage give a couple the right to engage in "sex play" without sinful reactions?

 

[4] Does the fact that homosexual couples are not married make their "sex play" any more sinful than the "sex play" of married heterosexual couples?

 

[5] If married heterosexual couples show affection, in public or private, such as holding hands, kissing, and cuddling is this considered appropriate behavior?

 

[6] If homosexual couples show affection, in public or private, such as holding hands, kissing and cuddling is this considered inappropriate behavior?

 

[7] The author lives in a city with a huge asian population and sees dozens of school girls walking hand in hand every day. Over the years he has seen countless North American women kiss one another lightly upon meeting and departing. Are these ladies lesbians?

 

[8] On the other hand the author has rarely seen men holding hands or kissing in public in the West. However, he has seen grown men kiss one another on each cheek and then lightly on the lips when meeting. This is a practice common to men in the Islam culture. Are these men gay?

 

[9] The author lived in Manhattan for a time and visited the "Village" and there saw men holding hands and kissing when they met one another and departed. Were these men gay?

 

[10] In that same neighborhood he saw non-asian women holding hands and kissing lightly in the same manner. Were these women lesbian?

 

 

 

--

 

Recommendations

 

[1] The Vaisanva community needs to reach a conclusive point of view on what it considered illicit sex.

 

[2] It needs to reach a conclusion on what is considered acceptable display of affection, in public and private, for heterosexual and homosexual couples.

 

[3] It needs to come to a higher understanding that conditioned souls are attracted to one another regardless of what body they happen to occupy. Why is there so much commotion over two men holding hands or kissing lightly in America when it is acceptable in other countries? Why is this acceptable for women in America but not men? Why is it acceptable for humans to love and show affection to their animals, who are of the lower species and unclean, but not humans of the same sex?

 

[4] The Vaisnava community needs to develop a concise body of social norms based upon a comprehensive Constitution for its own internal identity and integrity and also as a unified presentation in its work of preaching to the non-vaisnava population. The author has asked these questions to hundreds of devotees and the general outcome is that most devotees do not have a clear idea on any of this and there is no cultural norms held in common.

 

[5] The lack of a Constitution and body of social norms makes the Vaisnava Sampradaya look like a disorganized and unsubstantial minority religious sect as opposed to a fully articulated spiritual civilization. This results in the majority of intelligent and discerning people branding it a religoius cult with nothing of real value to offer to the dominant culture. This is exacerbated by the extensive web presence presenting a high level of quarrel and hypocrisy within the Sampradaya.

 

[6] How can the Sampradaya purport to be an alternative form of culture when it is, itself, infected and riddled with the same diseases of the dominant mundane culture?

 

[7] The unfortunate reality is that leadership on all levels have become absorbed in self interested "personal projects" in an attempt to mimic the apparent advancement and independence of the Acarya's. In doing so they have lost sight of the instructions of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, who is the recentmost Authorized Acarya and only disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati to understand his vision for the global proliferation of the mission of Lord Caitanya.

 

[8] The result of the failure of leadership to surrender to and obey the instructions of Srila Prabhupada has resulted in the shattering of the Sampradaya into numerous disparate contentious sects, each one incapable of comprehending and carrying out the non-sectarian truth and vision of the Acarya's.

 

[9] The leaders of the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya need to be awakened to the reality that their self interested "personal projects" have left the movement to stray into the forest of illusion with the effect of turning the entire Sampradaya into a mundane religious institution with strong cult leanings.

 

 

[Subala]

we may say many things - but outcome will be like this:

 

There are devotees who will accept Prabhupada's statements As It Is an will engage in sex life only for procreation. And live a happy and their mind will be peaceful.

 

There are devotees who unable to control the sex drive and will engage in sex besides procriation. Feeling guilty for not able to live up to the their own expectations as well as Guru and Sastra. Time will pass and they will be able to control their senses if they sincere.

 

There are devotees, because of their bad karma or past habits will be able to control it at all for long periods of time.

 

And vedic literature you can find everything you want to justify sex - illigal or legal.

 

If you sincere you will admit - yes I have this sex desires (even a blind man who never saw opposite sex in his/her life has this desires). Goal is to control senses. How? Chanting Holy names of Radha Krishna and Modana Mohana.

 

Some troubles will come, some help will be there. Our goal is to somehow or other remember Krishna more in duration of our life than Maya - and we will be able to >ante narayana smritihih>

 

and go back! enough is enough.

 

lets the fan blowing (if it is unplugged). Let that prarabha karma get exhausted. You fell down get up and move on. One day I will walk again stright.

 

 

PS. my comment is about husband-wife rules - i have no clue what to answer for someone who feels for same sex.

[Guest guest]

... self interested "personal projects"...

 

There is the real thing and then the cheap imitation.

 

It has been pointed out many times that there is no way to serve Krsna with homosexuality. It is also unnatural in terms of parenting, etc.

 

At least an indulgent heterosexual couple chave the possibility to purify the relationship and responsibly serve according to dharma.

 

When you get off the grunts of satisfaction and move to sociological and varnasrama perspectives, there is no comparison.

 

Guess Guest

[theist]

"homosexual couple." That is the problem right there. The very concept is ridiculous. They are to be considered brothers or sisters not lovers.

 

Questions like 'if two brothers are seen playing with each others genitalia but they don't come to oragsm is it illict sex' are meaningless and frankly stupid.

 

Besides that who wants to meditate on some other couples sexual habits, gay or straight? That means no one but their personal advisors have any business asking or hearing about it.

 

For me I take this position. I will talk to any devotee, straight or gay, about Krsna that is willing to talk to me. Unless they are trying to introduce homosexuality into Mahaprabhu's movement. In which case I don't even want to see their face.

 

Just my view.

[Guest guest]

The problem is very simple but easily over looked. Before one can engage in High levels of Bhakti one should have understanding of the ABCs. It is very rare these days to hear anyone speak from the platform of spirit soul.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu delivered Jagai and Madai- they were addicted to sex -alcohol and riches. They were very stone hearted and offensive. As devotees we need to see spirit souls and try to communicate on that platform. With out the basic understanding of I am spirit soul there will only be sectarianism and party wars. I am Indian and you are not. I am man and you are not. I am tall and you are short. I am smart and you are dumb. This type of friction will cease when we discuss the nature of the soul. If we omit this and talk about Rasa Lila then everyone will criticize and for good reason.

 

[Guest guest]

This topic is Nasty -Devotees should concern themselves only with nectar.

 

If you engage in those activities keep them to yourself.

 

don't pollute the enviroment with this subject - do some service in that way and help the devotees remain pure in thought action and words.

 

[livingentity]

old, boring and distastful.

 

C ya!

[Guruvani]

Maybe it is politically correct in modern society to show acceptance and fairness to gay and lesbians in the workplace etc., but Srila Prabhupada was never worried about being politically correct. To say that one should be accepted by claiming "gay or lesbian Vaishnava" and still be honored as temple president, GBC or even GURU is totally ludicrous. Once one is a true Vaishnava he is neither gay or lesbian. Vedic law allows for legitimate heterosexual relationships, but it does not allow for lesbian or homosexual behaviour as part of a sanctioned Vaishnava marriage.

So, there is no such thing as a "gay" or "lesbian" Vaishnava, as Vedic law does not sanction such relationships.

The Vedic law is not "politically correct" by modern standards....... thank goodness!

Actually, those who are trying to promote this "Gay and Lesbian" Vaishnava group are no more than antogonistic adversaries of the Krishna conciousness movement who want to denigarate the movement even further by this propaganda that Vaishnavas can be gay or lesbian.

Gay and lesbian is a demonic lifestyle and has no relationship at all with Vaishnavism!

This should be made clear to the general public.

[Guest guest]

homosexual tendency is adharma/sinful.

one need to get rid of it soon.

 

normal vaishnavs woulds stay away - bodily - from such a sick person.

 

jai sri krishna!

 

[Guest guest]

Alas how much more fallen can you than to be attracted to your own sex ?

[srivats]

Haribol !

 

Instead of discussing and promoting it , cant one think of realsing the sinfullness and try comming out of it.

 

If one accept its wrong and leave his mind to Krishna

he will give all power to come out of whatever bad habits you have.

 

Please get surrended to the almighty he will surely help.

Try showing your love towards the other Guy / Gal to krishna

 

Have endless love with him , you can forget every other materialistic things.

 

Madhava Kesava Madhana Gopala !

Srivats

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

we are kaliyuga people..... it is not possible in this age to distinguish clearly between bad and good for any kind of people

 

heavy judgements on the life of anyone has to be given only by pure people who are without interests if not the one to bring people to krsna

 

in this way we can bear and we accept like a benedition srila prabhupada who call ourselves "rascals"

 

 

and in vedic culture, discriminations and divisions were made by pure persons with the purpose of bring everyone to krsna

 

in vedic culture omosexuality was not emarginated.... even marriage and adiption was in some cases allowed

[Guest guest]

...... adoption

[theist]

>>in vedic culture omosexuality was not emarginated.... even marriage and adiption was in some cases allowed <<

 

Are you saying that in vedic culture they sanctioned homosex marriages and adoptions? I would like to know the source of this idea please.

 

 

[srivats]

Haribol !

 

 

I feel one get attracted to others , because of some karmic realtion they had in the past, this may be with even same sex , animals or opposite sex, it depends, and the ppl who likes such other person in the name of love then its fine

 

but i feel other things are needless to discuss much , as known if its wrong why keep on talking about it ?

 

Can someone take responsibility of making the guest who posted the first thread a better person in life , let me do it , if the guest is still seeing this thread for better answers , pls write to me at srivatsana@hotmail.com , you will find a friend who will try his level best to help you.

 

 

Madhava Kesava Madhana Gopala !

Srivats

[Guest guest]

i attended an afternoon of study on homosexuality in PRABUPADADESH italy by a disciple of an ISKCON sannyasi that have done (... the maharaja) a study on this theme.. (of course i do not remember the name)

 

i remember many things... that homosexuals can be persons so entangled by luxury that regular sex is not enough for them.. or....... simply people who have this tendency at the time of birth and have an innocent behaviour

 

also

 

in vedic times there were typical jobs for homosexual men, like dance teachers for women, "harem" servants etc. (not "evirated"!!!) and other services where a man was necessary but a "special"one who could'nt break the chastity of the women he was meeting

 

i remember that marriage and adoption was especially allowed (perhaps exclusively.... i do not remember exactly) for lesbians

 

it is not so strange.... vedic world was very accurate in defining laws and cathegories, but there was not emargination, there was a place for everyone

 

another consideration is that homosexuality has to do also with other "confusions (=kali yuga)" in sex distinctions.... my wife, now, is the owner of the house were i live (received from her parents), she has a little more regular job than me, works more than me, and sometimes earns more money.. sometimes she protects me, sometimes i protect her, sometimes she follows, sometimes i follow.. also in spiritual matters..

 

she was the more determined in taking initiation dissolving all my doubts even if i am the first person who has preached to her 13 years ago

 

... do we have a well defined husband/wife role like we see in vedic times?

 

for me.... this is also a form of HOMO(logation of )SEX

 

so, better not discriminate too much on the "genital" basis, especially when we have to deal with people chanting regularly hare krsna (= devotees)

 

sorry for my nasty english...

[I_love_krishna_]

Male and Female.

 

Aren't we all souls , so aren't we all equal on that basis. The fact is our bodies are not ours and every body has a special purpose. If it is a female body , it is your purpose to give birth to a beautiful child (ofcourse after you marry) and if you are a male body , it is your purpose to give a female the chance to have a baby( ofcourse after marriage).

 

The rest of the "gender roles" that are so well defined are useless in the present era.

 

_________

In the vedic times, they were ofcourse useful, because it was hard work that men had to accomplish so that they can "bring the bread" to feed their families.

 

The woman part of the society had to take care of the children so that the next generation can survive in this cruel and harsh world.

 

__________

but what now? We are not trying to fight off lions and tigers on a daily basis. so , being a male or a female has nothing to do with any roles except in giving birth and raising the next generation.

 

The rest of our goals are the same here, it is to reach krishna.

 

In reality, all the "strong" males who have lived for 50 years and survived wars are nothing but feminine souls in front of krishna, and they are no different from the souls that exist in those cute babies that we see in hospitals /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

 

You (the person who is reading) , Me , and every one on this planet is nothing but a soul which is small and vulnerable in front of krishna /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

 

Krishna is the true controller and he(she) is there in every one's heart /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

 

So can't we just treat people with out judging them by what bodies they wear for a year of Indra's life?).

 

More over, Homosexuality is the same thing here, just because you have an attraction to the same sex does not mean its bad. Its just another type of conditioning. However, you need to get over such type of conditioning by developing knowledge and bhakthi toward God. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Honestly, sometimes it seems that "big grown ups" act like little children who wear costumes on Halloween and fight as if they are that character.

Take an example of a young boy, If he dresses up like a batman, he starts to act all tough and plays like batman, and if he is superman he starts to imitate like he is flying. However, in reality such qualities are not inherent in the little boy. /images/graemlins/grin.gif This talk about gender roles seems to be synonymous to that situation, but in an Adult way.

 

Krishna would probably be laughing his head off /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

we can't just say we are all spiritsouls and a material body is just a body or costume, so its all the same. The inhabitants of animal bodies are also spiritsoul and there bodies are also just costumes. Is beastiality now OK?

 

The problem has come up only because some are lobbying for acceptance of their homosexual habits into the body of devotees, notwithstanding Prabhupada's clear statements to the contrary.

[I_love_krishna_]

Well , we are in some sort of conditioning due to our bodies.

 

Yeah its true , we are attracted to males if we are females and females if we are males.

 

And also, it is true that females are better at somethings and males better at other things.

However, on the over all perspective, we can get over the conditioning of being a male or female for some extent.

 

well, Hare krishna movement is about finding our true place near Krishna. So, we need to realize that being attracted to opposite sex is just a conditioning that is temporary.

 

Moreover, the homosexuals need to realize that the conditioning that they have is also temporary.

 

The sexual urge of homosexuals is just illicit sex, because it does not have a basis on giving birth to a beautiful child.

 

The sexual urge between male and female bodies is fine, but only if we are trying to see a cute baby in the future /images/graemlins/blush.gif.

 

 

The real attraction is between Krishna and a spirit soul. However, this attraction is not perverted , but is based on love /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[Guest guest]

I have love towards my friend who is a guy ,

and we had sex, now i am trying to change, its over than three months now and i am okey and i feel that i can overcome illicit sex .

 

i am chanting one round of maha mantra everyday. I am not meeting my friend now a days neither i am talking to me , i feel i am going to stadn only for krishna.

 

but the more i get away from my fried the more i think of him. we were together for more than 7 years and its too hard, atleast that i dont want to give up his friendship because i see all other people in this world are equally bad in one way or other. My friends circle reduced to null. i am living all alone now , none to even care about me.

and my friend is also in the same condition , but we want both of us to be happy and fine so we have taken decision of not meeting and not talking to each other.

 

my question is if i have no body in this world to trust and to care and getting cared about , and i have one good friend who can even give his life for me why should i give up his friend ship , but i am equally worried if i keep calling and spending time with him that will lead to illicit sex.becuase he was like lover to me and i am not able to change his postion in my heart. i thought i am going to live alone by depending only on krishna. but i dont think he is really listneing to my prayers , when i heard my friend had accident i imd called up and all my vyraaghya broke down there , i called and cried over phone.

 

what i need to do ? , i am posting this on the hope that krishna will show me better way.

 

 

[I_love_krishna_]

wow, that is so sad.

 

But first of all, you are not alone. In every cell of your body there is krishna, and in every shape and form, he is there.

 

You don't have to stay away from your boyfriend, you can live with him and care for him, but not through sex, take care of him for krishna through love and compassion.

 

Sex is not allowed for the so called "straight " people and also the so called "gay" people.

Unless it is for procreation.

 

But first of all, give up this notion that you are your body, which you are not. Then, you can start by not paying attention to the stuff that discriminates your kind. Next, give up the sense of attraction toward your lover (male or female) whoever, then you are free.

 

Freedom is intelligent self restraint (In the words of vedanta).

 

Your love in this world is pure, but yet perverted because it deals with the body.

 

If you love him, start seeing the soul in him, then you will start seeing that every one , you , me and the rest of this world are non different. Thus, leading to equilibrium and peace.

I hope i help, if i don't, sorry /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

 

 

 

[Krishna69]

My sincere adivice or suggestion to you is to stop searching for any spiritual master in this world. Honestly people who claim that they can show paths to salvation are not actually renounced by themselves which is true from the best of my knowledge and experience with such nonsense so called spiritual masters. Just read GITA interpreted by different people at various times. Again dont confine just to one interpretation and block your thoughts based on that individuals purport. You dont have to stop going to ISKON temple where someone misbehaved with you but go and give him back nicely because its one's duty to establish dharma when you find adharma, and who ever he may be dont bother to throw away and smash that person with strong words who exploit others in the name of Krishna/GOD.

Reading GITA alone is more than sufficient than searching for a guru.

regarding your relationship with your friend, continue the friendship as a true friendship from the heart and not from the body. It may be difficult initially but in course of time, you will realise that mental attachemnt devoid of physical attraction is much wonderful.

 

[Guruvani]

I am sure than I am not the only person who thinks that the person behind the previous post is a spiritually sick person, probably a member of GALVA. This philosophy sounds like something you would hear from some homosexual who claims to be a Vaishnava but who is actually an enemy of Vasihnavism out to demean and disgrace Vaishnavism.

[I_love_krishna_]

Is it some kind of a group that preaches against hare krishnas?

 

[stonehearted]

Guruvani: I am sure than I am not the only person who thinks that the person behind the previous post is a spiritually sick person, probably a member of GALVA. This philosophy sounds like something you would hear from some homosexual who claims to be a Vaishnava but who is actually an enemy of Vasihnavism out to demean and disgrace Vaishnavism.

 

Babhru: I read this three times, looking for any indication that there's some homosexual agenda, but I can't find it, and I'm a pretty sophisticated reader. This poster is just someone who has little real faith. Guruvani, you'll have to show me what made you think this is a GALVA post.

 

You're kind of new here, but even I have seen a dozen or more members try to undermine other members' faith in our sampradaya--some, like this one, in any sampradaya at all.