False renunciation or true association?

[JRdd 0]

False renunciation or true association?

 

Hare Krsna prabhus,

 

Please accept my fallen obeisances. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

I would like to put to you something that has been strongly on my mind, and in my heart, and deep within my soul, and of which I am so convinced to be true that I feel it is my job to share it. If some are offended or feel the finger is being pointed at them, please forgive me, for that is not at all my intention here, although admittedly many of those whom I associate with, both here and otherwise, contribute to the mix of my learning experiences. I hope there is some light of inspiration, somehow, for others, in what I have to say.

 

About ten years ago the council in England (mostly men, and one token woman), headed by Sivaram Maharaja, invited a handful of women to present their perspectives on why marriages had such a disastrous record amongst devotees, as well as any suggestions we might have to help improve things. The theme I chose was false renunciation, and to make my presentation hit home more vividly, I gave examples from my own failed marriage, which was comprised of eight years of living with a person who criticised me daily, did not offer one word of encouragement, and absolutely withheld affection and solace–not only when I got news of my brother’s sudden death, but even when I was heartbroken the morning after losing my baby. Anyway, after this meeting, Godbrothers came to hug me (deciding then and there that hugs were a beginning in healing the wounds of a family which felt anything but familial) and thank me for my presentation. One prominent devotee man was tearful as he spoke, and apologised on behalf of himself and any man who had ever treated a woman mean-spiritedly, coldly, or offensively in any way. But–

 

I bring this up again because this coldness, this false renunciation, this behaviour which is can often be actually cruel and UNvaisnava-like, is as much (if not more) of a problem now, as it was then. It is apparent to me in different ways these days, however, as I am rarely around devotees, and also times have changed. I will explain in a moment how I see this false picture these days, from where I stand now, but first I would like to say that the marriages which I do see, which have endured over the years, impress me very much. I know that some if not all of these true friendships evolved through trials and hard work, but I would also venture to say it impresses me that there is a common facet in all of them.

 

And this facet is humility. What do I mean by humility? I mean a willingness to admit to oneself and the other that it is damn hard in this world, that I am nothing without my guru, and that knowing this of ourselves we agree to help each other as much as we can, reminding each other to keep on keeping on, encouraging each other in our practices, and to not pretend to be anything other than what we are at this given moment in time. I see joy in the faces of these couples, I see they are also comforted in each others’ association, and I see, despite this comfort, much enthusiasm, for they are among the best association one could ask for–“imperfect” as they (self-admittedly) are.

 

Now the flip side of this approach to relationships is to withhold affection, to not appreciate others, and to prefer hiding in one’s own little world, over committing to creating something wonderful with others. This is what is meant by grhamedhi consciousness. To choose wallowing in one’s anarthas over associating with devotees. And this is what I see today, and it occurs among the unmarried as well as the married. There is nothing renounced about retreating to one’s own little world, if that world is full of anarthas. If one is admitting to anarthas, one is obviously not ready for renunciation--doesn’t that make sense? One will not be more protected from the modes of material nature by suppressing one inclination (i.e. to be with a woman) while indulging in another. Doesn’t this make sense??? I’m not saying those anarthas suddenly disappear–not am I suggesting anyone should shame another for these attachments–but truly, nurturing relationships, which attempts to encourage sadhana and more, have a lot to be said for themselves.

 

Someone tonight was telling me of a dear devotee she once knew, who killed himself. He was a real nice guy, devotional, non-misogynistic, someone a Vaisnavi would have been happy to have married. Now the night before he did this to himself, he poured his heart out to another devotee, about how disheartened he was over the disastrous devotee marriages, and how fearful he was of being married though he was so inclined to be, and how he felt he could not go on as a brahmacari either. Sad, prabhus, huh?

 

What I am driving at is that there are a lot of lonely people, devotees, wonderful souls, who could be sharing their lives with someone else ( I mean face it, who is actually going to move into a temple for association?), and who could gradually be actually growing out of the habits that bind them to this world, keep them in a rut, hinder healthy spiritual growth. Now I will be frank here, risk playing the fool for the sake of getting this message across, and admit that I myself expend a lot of energy just trying to bear up under the stress of being alone for so long. It is not natural, whatever anyone may say. And it is not recommended by our acaryas. So here is the thing:

 

This keeping to one’s own world, of self-admitted anarthas, is not the road to renunciation. It isn’t. This road does not lead to Krsnaloka. If one owns up to anarthas one is not ready for renunciation, and if one thinks he or she is being renounced, or that renunciation will somehow just come, it’s a lie. How can men think it is better to be alone, in that situation, than to associate with a Vaisnavi?

 

I firmly believe that men could COMPLETELY eradicate the sins of all their previous exploits of women just by protecting one devotee woman–just by commiting to one woman. And that this is a service, which is very pleasing to Krsna. It takes a leap, it takes selflessness, but it also has its own spiritual rewards.

 

Please don’t misunderstand me here. I am not expecting anyone to about face change just because of this one little post. Nor am I petitioning here on my own behalf, though I am advertising the advantages and virtues of Vaisnava partnerships. (I myself am going through a process of trying to let go of years of thinking or wishing that Krsna will send someone to me. The marrying kind seem to be married already. I am not at all attracted to “non”devotee men but am mulling over the idea of asking feedback from those who have successfully married nondevotees, simply because I can not be a brahmacari in this lifetime, and may have to roll up my sleeves and take action–Krsna told Arjuna to go for it, didn’t he?-- to go for the lesser of the evils, of trying to cope in this difficult world alone; maybe this is one way we make devotees, who knows?)

 

I am simply putting this out here in hopes that it will begin a process within some, or maybe just food for thought, and also to receive thoughts from others about this and, more than anything, to encourage those younger devotees who seem to have a much more balanced approach to marriage than those of my generation have shown. Be good to your wives, my sons and younger siblings. Appreciate and love them and you will together be able to cultivate a gratifying increase in loyalty, love, and a real blossoming of enthusiasm for spreading Krsna consciousness, in yourselves, and in others. It could be very interesting to hear the thoughts of those in younger bodies as well as the more seasoned.

 

May we all find the good association we need in this lifetime, in whatever way it may come, and not complacently succumb to any ideas that we need drag our existence here out over lifetimes.

 

(Now you can take out your sticks and flog me. I’m ready.)

Thanks, Jayaradhe

 

[Guest guest]

I firmly believe that men could COMPLETELY eradicate the sins of all their previous exploits of women just by protecting one devotee woman?just by commiting to one woman.

 

 

VICE-VERSA:

 

I firmly believe that women could COMPLETELY eradicate the sins of all their previous exploits of men just by protecting one devotee man?just by commiting to one man.

 

Takes 2 to tango...

 

[atma 0]

 

Dear Jayaradhe: few minutes ago I sent you a personal e-mail. I just came here and read your post. I agree with you. More feedback tomorrow, I'm so tired I need to go to sleep.

Keep well and dream of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna

[Guest guest]

<h2>"When faults in others misguide and delude you -- have patience, introspect, find faults in yourself. KNOW THAT OTHERS CANNOT HARM YOU

UNLESS YOU HARM YOURSELF".</h2>

--- Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura , discourse in Dhaka, Bangladesh, 1935.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by rand0M aXiS (edited 09-17-2001).]

[JRdd 0]

This is a little off the point of my thread, BB prabhu. I am not picking at faults. I am talking about (among other things) the futility in false renunciation--among men and women both. Basically I aim to encourage devotees to associate with each other, and in this case, in this thread, because this is something which pains me, personally, so much, I am narrowing that down to the discussion of the merits of marriage. I am sorry if I did not express that clearly enough.

 

I also hope to hear constructive contributions from those interested in the ideas I have presented, that's all. I really don't want to fight. Honestly. (That's your job )

 

sincerely,

Jayaradhe

[Guest guest]

acha

[JRdd 0]

Hm. I notice this thread is being (perhaps studiously) ignored. Feelings are pretty scary eh? Hope I didn't ruffle anyone's ridges.

 

Good morning souls. Jiv jago!!!

[Audarya lila 0]

Very nice topic. I will share a little of my own experience in hopes of getting more discussion going.

 

I don't want to give my whole history here, but a little bit to make my story a little more understandable. I understood that I was not ready for a life of renunciation and celibacy early on after joining the movement in 1978. I didn't see a lot to encourage me in terms of relationships and I definitely didn't want to get into an arranged marriage. This was mainly due to the problems I saw with those that were arranged and my own inclination for wanting to make sure that I had a compatible partner. Also, I have always believed in commitment and I saw too many failed marriages due to immaturity and, as Jaya Radhe has mentioned, false renunciation.

 

I came to the movement with no education or training and my only qualification at the time of my coming to terms with my own nature was that I was trained as a salesman for Krsna. Sales is totally against my nature and is only something I did for Krsna because I saw it, at the time, as a good service. To be sure I wasn't always involved in strictly sales, having distributed books at the airport and sold sets of Srimad Bhagavatams to faithful Hindus - but I also sold paintings, candles and other non-devotional items to support the temple.

 

Anyway, I decided to go to school. The first two years I lived with my parents and went to a community college. My third year I went to U.C. San Diego. Shortly after arriving in San Diego I met my wife at the temple. She is not a devotee. She is, however very devoted to Christ - she is a Catholic. She first came to the temple for a psychology experiment and found that she really enjoyed the atmosphere and the devotion. She is a vegetarian (a little unusual for a catholic).

 

We got married in 1987. We were married in the Catholic church. I had devotees cater the wedding. We had a very small wedding with mainly family members and a few close friends.

 

O.K. - so I got a little carried away with the personal story. A little math will tell you how long we have been married. We have two children.

 

I guess what I would like to share with regards to the topic of the thread is that any relationship takes sacrifice and commitment for it to work. I have learned so much about selflessness due to being married and having kids - lessons that I personally couldn't have learned without family. Being married to a 'non-devotee' has also been very good for me. I encourage my wife in her devotion and she in mine. We enjoy the celebration of each others faith and actively participate with each other. For sure, having this type of marriage has it's own unique challenges - but I have found that they are good ones for my own personal growth. I have had to learn to not only accept diversity and other expressions of faith, but have come to celebrate them. The key to our success in marriage has always been that we have a common goal in life - to learn to love God. As our own faith's mature over time we find that we are growing together and also that we are growing apart. That is probably the most difficult part for those who contemplate inter-faith marriage. There are so many stages we all have to pass through. At first we may be exclusive in our approach to divinity because we are immature and our faith is weak. We become more accepting of diversity over time and through the maturation of our own inner life. As my love for Krsna deepens I am finding that I am again becoming more exclusive, not in my overall vision, but in my personal devotion and that my heart yearns for constant immersion in Krsna katha and that I deeply desire the association of devotees.

 

I said my wife is a 'non-devotee' because she doesn't conform to the definition we usually would agree upon. However, she is very devotional and she is a tremendous inspiration to my own pursuit of service to Mahaprabhu. Catholicism has it's strengths and weaknesses and I have found that our two traditions and faiths compliment each other remarkably well.

 

Sorry if I rambled a bit in this post. What I really want to convey is that the grhasta ashrama is a wonderful ashrama and that most of us are suited to it in one way or another. But marriage requires commitment to realationship, sacrifice and a willingness to give up your personal life for the interests of the family. It is not a fad, or an excuse to indulge in sense gratification. This is one reason why marriages fail. When the initial newness of the relationship wears off and the demands of the senses for titillation and stimulation aren't being met - so goes the union if it is based on such superficiality. In order for a marriage to work properly there must be a sense of duty, a genuine caring and love for the partner and a common goal in terms of lifes pursuits. If these are in place, it is my opinion and experience that marriage will be a progressive and healthy experience which will provide the means for both partners and their offspring to progress toward love in transcendence.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Guest guest]

Worship your cows and hate your women!

 

Is that the msg that Gaudiya-vaisnavism could give you?

 

Jesus would prefer to say: “Woman and man were made one flesh by God. Whatever God has united men cannot separate.” Both were made to grow spiritually together, hand by hand , as a single body.

 

Many sruti and smrtis also state the same as Jesus. Misogynic behavior is not a Christian doctrine, neither a Hindu doctrine. It can be an Islamic practice that has influenced Gaudiya-vaisnavism under the argument of vairagya.

 

[valaya 0]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Hm. I notice this thread is being (perhaps studiously) ignored. Feelings are pretty scary eh? Hope I didn't ruffle anyone's ridges.

 

Good morning souls. Jiv jago!!!

Dear JRdd, Since you are opening up more, your depth and complexities become increasingly apparent. This communications medium does have it's limations, especially in trying to share personal feelings. So many times we tend to misinterpret one another.

 

I really would like to talk to more of you over the phone, since meeting face-to-face seems impossible. Such a shame we can't talk over the kitchen table while taking prasadam! In spite of very limited finances and fixed income, I will pay for the calls on Sunday (cheap rate). Later at night is the best time. I can understand your reluctance, prabhu, so don't feel I'm pushing you.

 

Will try to reply to your posts as best I can, after giving them the attention they deserve. One thing I'll say now, though, is that you're a lot stronger than you may think. It's just a certain type of strength that must be recognized. Like Mr.D said on another thread, we fall to the ground and the ground lifts us up. I can see clearly that you are gaining increased realization in that regard. JAI RADHE! RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-18-2001).]

[JRdd 0]

I like that, fall to the ground and it lifts us up, missed that somehow. Thanks for all the contributions Prabhus, thanks for taking this seriously, thank you Audaryalila prabhu for taking the time to share; every bit of it is useful, food for thought.

 

For myself I think it was falsa bravado in a very dark moment to entertain the idea of contriving to meet someone outside the devotee community. I really have no taste for it, nor can I approach relationships in such a calculating way. My only other alternative, therefore, is just to surrender to Krsna's will, and only when I succeed in doing so will I be happy, no matter what happens around me or to change my lifestyle. I can see though how this meeting with your wife, Audarylila was natural and compatible, seems to be a match made in heaven, meaning one conducive to spiritual growth.

 

For me, this hankering for association is eating me alive and I have to somehow let go of it. I want my tears to be transformed into tears fo seaparation from Radha and Krsna. I need your prayers and support that I can simply surrender to Krsna's will. And I will pray the same for all of you good souls.

 

Have a good life, filled with consciousness of the Lord in all that you do.

 

aspiring to be of service,

Jayaradhe

[Guest guest]

Yajñavalkya has enlighten his wife Maiteyi, by giving her the knowledge of Brahman. This beautiful example is given in Chandogya Upanisad, a sruti text, in wonderful details. He has treated his wife in the same way that another great spiritual master (Jesus) has instructed: “Woman and man were made one flesh by God. Whatever God has united men cannot separate.”

 

Nowhere in sruti women are considered as servants of maya, and the cause of men fall down. Only Islamic doctrine would say that women are under Satan’s spell and are the cause of men fall down.

 

[stonehearted 0]

I haven't responded before because for now I canonly log on in my office at work. I was quite moved by your essay, Jayaradhe (one word; see? I remembered!). Last night I was in a conversation with Raghunath Anudas and another devotee, who has never been married. Something came up about women, and this never-married devotee's "old-school" colors showed (he's more closely associated with a Gaudiya Math misson than with ISKCON). Raghu said he had seen a survey regarding how to improve marriages; the bottom line was, "Listen to the woman." The old brahmacari rather blanched,and Raghu and I just smiled. "How many times have you been married?" we asked.

 

"Well, never."

 

I replied, that in my experience the only way to make a marriage work is that you become each other's best friend and best association, that the partners become partners. That's what has made our marriage last almost 29 years, so far.

 

I have more to say, but I have to prepare for a class.

 

Thanks for introducing this thread. It won't be ignored, and I'll be back.

[stonehearted 0]

Oh, I also wanted to add that last night I also shared a recent post from Tripurari Maharaj in which he pointed out that marriage teaches two important and connected values: love and sacrifice.

[JRdd 0]

Good old (young) Raghunath. Such a good heart on his shouldeers. I really must get in touch. Love him.

[mahak 0]

Dont leave mama in the dirt so ya can go off and be spiritual. Bad business. Evil intent.

 

One can renounce association with the other gender only if fully absorbed in ghastly rasa or the rasa of dread. If one is in the business of climbing a so-called hierarchial ladder, this is the business of householders, and the spouse can only be helpful in such a quest.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS Commitment to one woman (or man) is renunciation in itself, many so called sanyassis cannot even do this (i dont mean commit to one man, but now ya mention it, maybe some of the sanyassis I knew woulda been better off if they committed to just one man =;-}

[Audarya lila 0]

Dear Jayaradhe,

 

Krsna hears all of our prayers and he gives us all what is best for us, even if it is not what we think is best for us.

 

I'm not sure what you meant about meeting someone in a calculating way and whether or not the comment was directed at what I shared. But the comment does make me want to share a little further.

 

At the time I met my wife I had come full circle on many things in my life and had made a very conscious choice to keep myself free from judging people based on temporary false identities. It was at this time that Sandra and I met and we started a friendship that was very intimate and completely devoid of sex life. That friendship is that thing that brought us together and keeps us together. Of course, we are both human and full of fault and we get angry at each other from time to time - just this afternoon in fact - but that only makes our relationship stronger. My wife likes to tell people that I am more Catholic than most Catholic's. On the other side of that equation, I would say that Sandra is as much a devotee as most devotees. There is no doubt that we help each other and support each other fully in our devotional lives.

 

Now here is the thing - sometimes my wife thinks it would have been easier for her to have married a Catholic, and sometimes I feel that my life would be simpler with a devotee. But we both realize that this thought is an illusion and false to it's core. A 'Catholic' man as she has pointed out on many occasions may or may not inspire devotion and may be far less compatible as far as emphasis on what is important in life. Devotees may also be less than inspiring and not necessarily as good of association as my 'non-devotee' wife. A devotee may be more materialistic, less moral, less dedicated to family, more dogmatic - who knows?

 

I do know that personally I have had association with Catholic's that are very inspirational and I have been associated with devotees that are not.

 

There is a wonderful saying that I think is pertinent to this discussion, at least somewhat - man proposes and god disposes. We are meant to see Krsna in all beings. How can I do otherwise? How can any of us?

 

These are just some of my thoughts on this issue. It's really interesting because devotees in different 'camps' don't even seem to be able to co-exist and cooperate with one another. Surely since Srila Prabhupada built a house the whole world can live in my wife and other non-devotees should be included.

 

I don't mean this post to be reactionary, but what I am really trying to say is - we should be open to sharing our lives with whomever Krsna sends our way and in the process try to advance in Krsna consciousness. We may think 'I can only share my life with a devotee' and end up sharing it with someone who uses us and abuses us. All souls are Krsna's and devotion is in the hearts of all beings - we just have to help to bring it out.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[stonehearted 0]

 

Originally posted by JRdd:

Good old (young) Raghunath. Such a good heart on his shouldeers. I really must get in touch.

 

Stone: Do. He's home now.

 

[JRdd 0]

Is Jagadhatri online? Raghu has not been that regular, overall, about being able to check his email.

 

Audaryalila prabhu, I continue to appreciate your every word, all that you have said here, and there too, today. About my comment about contriving to meet someone, etc., that was certainly not about you. I cited you immediately after that remark, as a contrast to the idea. That is why I said that I can see it as like a match made in heaven. Did you ever read M Scott Peck, The Road Less Traveled? Christian man, with universal perspective of a very kind God, and emphasis on spiritual reasons why we are here for each other.

 

I am not sure how much time I have to write more here tonight. I keep thinking I am going to make zucchini bread for my daughter.

 

aspiring to be increasingly absorbed in anything to do with bhaki,

Jayaradhe dasi

[valaya 0]

JRdd prabhu, the tears we cry no more belong to us than anything else! They're Her tears! Our separation is Her separation! We are Her's--lock, stock and barrel! Acintya-bheda-bheda must be realized in the heart. The intimacy we have with Her is almost unimaginable! All that's required is to feel strongly the need to share your heavy heart and the faith that it actually is possible to do so with Her personally.

 

That, and giving up the desire to enjoy Krsna independently, knowing that He and everything else belong to Her only. SHE is the inner potency that is the basis of all the others and we are each infinitismal parts of HER! Really, our position is so vimmensely special and unique, prabhu.

 

Please try to appreciate the mercy we are ALL receiving through Lord Caitanya, Prabhu Nityananda, and Srila Prabhupada (not to mention the Goswamis of Vrndavana and the entire parampara!). The baby cries and the Mother gently lifts it to Her breast, singing softly. Prabhuji, She is right here with us now and always!!!

 

The only separation is between Her and Krsna and even that is only for the purpose of these wondrous pastimes constantly being created for US! For as much as we are Theirs', amazingly They are ours! It's just a matter of properly plugging into that energy in the right place--RADHA! That separation everyone is so desperate to avoid is the key to all that we really need! JAI SRI RADHE! RR

[valaya 0]

That last post was inspired by the one immediately above it from Jayaradhe prabhu. It was not the reply I hope to give regarding marriage and devotee relationships. Still, there is a connection between our ability to relate with each other personally and our personal relationship with the Divine Absolute, which I trust is obvious to all here. RR

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Hm. I notice this thread is being (perhaps studiously) ignored. Feelings are pretty scary eh? Hope I didn't ruffle anyone's ridges.

 

Good morning souls. Jiv jago!!!

Perhaps you should answer Sugata praphu's emails to you?

[stonehearted 0]

 

Originally posted by JRdd:

Is Jagadhatri online? Raghu has not been that regular, overall, about being able to check his email.

 

Stone: You're right about Raghu and email. I think Jagaddhatri's email address is jprem@royalstate.com

 

JR: I am not sure how much time I have to write more here tonight. I keep thinking I am going to make zucchini bread for my daughter.

 

Stone: Have you made that zucchini bread yet? We're getting hungry!

[valaya 0]

Most of the married men I know, devotees and others, would be completely lost without their wives though I don't believe any of them realize it. While they're provided a clean comfortable home, fed well and generally kept gainfully employed on the straight and narrow, their minds tend to dream of the magical single life and all the possibilities it seems to offer. Sure, when you're well-fed, have a clean comfortable place to call home and a good regulated life. Try it all alone for awhile, brother!

 

I always remind them of what kind of lives they had before their wives took control, usually out of necessity, then point to my own wretched lonely existence. Whether any of it sinks in, I don't know, but I've little doubt that without the firm foundation of home and family they'd be pretty much lost. Maybe we men never fully accept maturity or enjoy family responsibility...

 

An older neighbour woman just died, leaving a husband who not only emotionally abused her, but never was able to recognize just how dependent he was on her constant accomodating presence. Well, I guess he'll learn to appreciate her now that it's too late...so sad.

 

I remember Prabhupada telling us that we should be attracted to the devotion we see in each. Surely our close relationships must nurture that same devotion if we are to grow as devotees. I see marriage mainly for the purpose of raising children, since partners need not actually enter into matrimony, even if there is sex involved. Certainly no one can depend on any formal ceremony to keep them together in this day and age.

 

As for intimacy, I don't believe that sex contributes towards real closeness in any way. In fact, I think that it fosters jealousy, possessiveness, and ultimately frustration. My idea of bonding is more of an emotional sharing which includes physical embraces and sleeping together, but without sexual intercourse or genital stimulation. After all, we're not these bodies, thank God!

 

Genuine love is for me the desire to strengthen another and encourage them to be all they can be, so that they become satisfied independently within themselves. We don't have to be married or live together in order to relate with each other like that. All we need is sufficent motivation, which I personally found from my worship of Srimati Radharani, in Her diety form and otherwise.

 

Now when I recognize devotion in another it's Her qualities I focus on. It's Her part and parcels that I try to encourage. She is the oneness for me and the essence that I seek. Only She is my all-in-all. Maybe I'm wrong in this, prabhus. I know often I feel like I'm making a fool of myself, but then I start thinking that I actually am a fool anyway, so why hide it from myself or anyone else?

 

Because of Her, I can reveal my vulnerability and I'm more in tune with the sensitive side of life, not having to remain behind a wall of hardness anymore. Unfortunately, now that my paternal instincts are finally emerging, my life is waning and this aching old body will soon slide into the 60's...

 

So I'm looking at those around me as my family, particularly you prabhus, trying to care more deeply and praying to Sri Radhika that She will allow me somehow to be of value. At times it seems She does, giving me whatever qualifications are required at that moment. Then it's back into my usual dull monotonous slump.

 

Anyway, that's my contribution to this thread, Jayaradhe dd. Hope it proves useful even if only to help others avoid coming to this point where they may also find themselves stuck in hopeless isolation. The dreamer who dreamed his life away! I'm afraid this post could be just a little too much wallowing, even for me, so read quickly 'cuz it might be gone tomorrow... valaya RR

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-20-2001).]

[dasanudas 0]

Was'nt it Lord Brahma who said

"You can't live with them

And you can't live without them."

Surely it could'nt have been Srimate Saraswati Devi that he was referring to at least half a' the statement.

 

[This message has been edited by dasanudas (edited 09-20-2001).]