Morning program, Spontaneous enthusiasm

[amanpeter]

Just read an article on Chakra by Danavir Goswami and found these two quotes interesting. The

first equates ANY spiritual life with attending a full ISKCON morning program and the second

emphasizes the need for service to be individual, spontaneous and VOLUNTARY to avoid killing the enthusiastic spirit. Thought some discussion might be inspired by this post. Comments, prabhus?

 

10. You must rise early (before 4:00 AM), attend the mangala arati, attend the classes, chant at

least 16 good rounds daily, and observe the four basic principles. These things you must do

without fail otherwise, there is no question of spiritual life. (Letter to: Caranaravinda --

Mayapur 2 April, 1975)

 

27. So the future of this Krishna Consciousness movement is very bright, so long the managers

remain vigilant that 16 rounds are being chanted by everyone without fail, that they are all

rising before four morning, attending mangal arati--our leaders shall be careful not to kill the

spirit of enthusiastic service, which is individual and spontaneous and voluntary.(Letter to:

Karandhara -- Bombay 22 December, 1972)

 

]

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-04-2001).]

[amanpeter]

Still no comments, prabhus?

[Guest guest]

You must rise early (before 4:00 AM), attend the mangala arati, attend the classes, chant at least 16 good rounds daily, and observe the four basic principles. These things you must do without fail otherwise, there is no question of spiritual life.

 

So, this method should create a jiva, or a soul. There is no spiritual life without the routine established by this method. Only after this program one gets a spiritual soul. Very interesting indeed.

 

But the Srimad Bhagavatam (11.12.9) states:

 

yam na yogena sankhyena / dana-vrata-tapo-'dhvaraih

vyakhya-svadhyaya-sannyasaih / prapnuyad yatnavan api

 

"Even though one engages with great endeavor in the mystic yoga system, philosophical speculation, charity, vows, penances, ritualistic sacrifices, teaching Vedic mantras, or the renounced order of life, still one cannot achieve Me."

 

So, a doubt may be raised here. If this program is meant to create spiritual life, then obviously spiritual life must not have existed previously. It arose by the performance of this sadhana. In that case spiritual life would be anitya (non-eternal) or krtrim (that which is not natural or spontaneously manifested).

 

Therefore, how could this anitya spiritual life be accepted as something nitya-siddha (eternally accomplished), or in other words, as the supreme object of attainment (parama-purusartha-vastu)?

 

So, this discipline seems to be a perfect absurd and a non-sense. It only may create an anitya (non-perennial) phenomena called by them spiritual life by an empirical process. If one interrupts the process this anitya and unique phenomena is also interrupted!!!

 

 

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by Maitreya:

So Satyaraja just go sit on a stump somewhere and wait for Hari's mercy.Oh, and no fair taking any books with you to read.And no praying either.Also no sravana kiratanam smaranam vishnoh because those are limbs of sadhana.

 

Just sit on your stump and wait.

 

ps bring a thick pillow you may be there a while.

 

C'mon MC, don't tell me you're still trying to stump our resident pandit, Satyaraja prabhu!

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-04-2001).]

[Bhakta Shakta]

Satyaraj, aren't you the one who was preachin on VNN (i was supercowS) that Jesus never existed. that would give new meaning4impersonalism!!!!!!!!!!

 

Anyway, why does someone say you have to chant 16 rounds when ones iccha or desire is not to chant 16 rounds. It should come from the heart nor mind. Note, Prabhupada's followers missused Mahaprabhu's prime weapon against his own faithful followers the sadhus of Vrindavan and Sri Navadwipp. Not very wise. How dare they. I wondered where they would pick this behavior up from. Started all the way at Bhaktivinode down to Bhaktisiddhanta. 108Lalit Prasad Thakur was free from it though. The opposite of chanting is offensive chanting!

 

[This message has been edited by Bhakta Shakta (edited 09-04-2001).]

[Maitreya]

So Satyaraja just go sit on a stump somewhere and wait for Hari's mercy.Oh, and no fair taking any books with you to read.And no praying either.Also no sravana kiratanam smaranam vishnoh because those are limbs of sadhana.

 

Just sit on your stump and wait.

 

ps bring a thick pillow you may be there a while.

[Guest guest]

So Satyaraja just go sit on a stump somewhere and wait for Hari's mercy.Oh, and no fair taking any books with you to read.And no praying either.Also no sravana kiratanam smaranam vishnoh because those are limbs of sadhana. (Maitreya)

 

 

It happened before in the case of Aihala, Gautama’s wife who was transformed into a stone woman. Rama has delivered her with His feet. Hari’s mervy is always prevalent. One may perform all sort of sadhanas, but it is Hari who really decides when one is fit to have His personal association.

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

One may perform all sort of sadhanas, but it is Hari who really decides when one is fit to have His personal association.

Why not dance before the party

But be sure to hear

the knocking door

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[kailasa]

>Hari’s mervy is always prevalent. One may perform all sort of sadhanas, but it is Hari who really decides when one is fit to have His personal association.

 

I agree. But the performance sadana gives to any guarantee of reception kripa, and the performance nevertheless increases her(it). Not each professor finished university, but if not to finish university it does not mean that will become the professor.

[Guest guest]

But the performance sadana gives to any guarantee of reception kripa... (Kailasa)

 

Bhagavata Purana describes how Hari sports His lilas. Once mother Yasoda was trying to bound baby Krsna’s belly with some ropes but she could not. It was always missing two fingers of width to tie Krsna’s belly in spite of all ropes that she could tie one another. Krsna’s belly was so small, but not even all the ropes of Goloka tied together could tie it. It was always lacking two little fingers of width. After a very long effort and so many hardships, finally Yasoda could tie Krsna’s belly, when He decided to agree with His mother’s desire.

 

It is said that one finger lacking is sadhana and the other is krpa. They are always there, as everyone is doing some kind of sadhana and Hari’s krpa is always present. But the final result will be only attained by exclusive Hari’s free will and nothing else. One may be very near to the point of to bound Krsna, maybe only two fingers will be missing. But when he will really attain Hari? Only when Hari shall agree with that!!!

 

[Guest guest]

Srimad Bhagavatam (11.12.9) states:

 

yam na yogena sankhyena / dana-vrata-tapo-‘dhvaraih

vyakhya-svadhyaya-sannyasaih / prapnuyad yatnavan api

 

“Even though one engages with great endeavor in the mystic yoga system, philosophical speculation, charity, vows, penances, ritualistic sacrifices, teaching Vedic mantras, or the renounced order of life, still one cannot achieve Me.”

 

All the Vedanta-acaryas and sadhus establish that union with the Ultimate Reality is the aim. This is the eternally established aim mentioned in srutis and Gitopanisad; and it is not brought about by any sadhana. It automatically manifests itself to someone by Sri Hari’s mercy or by the mercy of His devotees. Nothing can create it.

 

Bhakti may land in every soul. Smrti texts are full of such examples. Dogs, trees, stones, rivers and other non-mobile creatures, completely tamasic and unable to follow any kind of discipline suddenly attain utmost bhakti by Hari’s exclusive mercy. How can one explain and rule bhakti? How can one prescribe any real path for it? Hari’s mercy is above all rules and prescriptions.

 

It is said that: “One may invite Hari for his party. But there is no guarantee that He will came.”

 

Is there any statistics proving that someone will have a better chance to attain Hari by following the bhakti-marga as prescribed by Gaudiyas? Or by any other sect? Or showing that without following any religious discipline at all bhakti is not attainable?

 

[kailasa]

> But the final result will be only attained by exclusive Hari’s free will and nothing else.

 

Yes I agree. But the God establishes also principles sadana. Sadana gives cleanliness and nothing gives simultaneously, if we correctly carry out sadana we gradually we achieve success, if we simply try to make from this the mechanism, all stops.

 

>Srimad Bhagavatam (11.12.9) states:

yam na yogena sankhyena / dana-vrata-tapo-‘dhvaraih

vyakhya-svadhyaya-sannyasaih / prapnuyad yatnavan api

 

“Even though one engages with great endeavor in the mystic yoga system, philosophical speculation, charity, vows, penances, ritualistic sacrifices, teaching Vedic mantras, or the renounced order of life, still one cannot achieve Me.”

 

BG 12 chapter

 

"Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live in Me always, without a doubt."

 

This description of spontaneous fidelity.

 

"My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix your mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to attain Me."

 

This description sadana. (abhyasa-yogena)

 

"If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will come to the perfect stage."

 

It karma-yoga, as activity in Consciousness Krisna. (work for Me)

 

"If, however, you are unable to work in this consciousness of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and try to be self-situated."

 

It is usual karma-yoga.

 

"If you cannot take to this practice, then engage yourself in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, however, is meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the fruits of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of mind."

 

gyana, dhyana, karma-yoga.

 

And karma-yoga is higher dhyana, everyone think that karma-yoga it is the bottom, is higher gyana and even above dhyana. But karma-yoga it just òàêè that that does not suffice. Gyana it is the fact much. Dhyana it is less, mostly impersonal ( Is merged with happiness Krisna by and large) and part of meditation on games. Vigyana it is even less, realized karma-yoga it is few, only that have made for us knowing this unfortunate rule(situation). For themselves everyone do(make) much, but for the God as a rule only in exchange on clearing, sensations of spiritual life.... As vigyana poorly therefore devotee frequently do not know that it is necessary to do(make) wandering in doubts and trying to cover all this with whose íèáóäü with authority instead of that what to apply sastra in the life. In sadana devotee can establish the attitudes(relation) with the God, sadana it is adjustable fidelity, that is she(it) interrupts, but sadana it not it is not enough, to wash a floor in a temple it sadana, to meditate it sadana, but also to receive darsan or kripa in result sadana as probably and it most likely.

 

It(he) gives us the instructions. Lord Brahma the creator carried out all askesa, Narada Muni instructed the snake. It is simply necessary to understand that there are TWO things - sadana and kripa, it is simple kripa is possible(probable) without sadana, though as a rule in the previous life these persons that already did(made) that, nevertheless material world is created at the request of essences, if the soul does not want, as a rule she(it) and remains where it is pleasant to it(her). On the other hand God is completely independent, therefore it is a mistake to speak that there is a method of achievement It(him).

>It is said that: “One may invite Hari for his party. But there is no guarantee that He will came.”

Yes I agree.

 

>Bhakti may land in every soul. Smrti texts are full of such examples. Dogs, trees, stones, rivers and other non-mobile creatures, completely tamasic and unable to follow any kind of discipline suddenly attain utmost bhakti by Hari’s exclusive mercy. How can one explain and rule bhakti? How can one prescribe any real path for it? Hari’s mercy is above all rules and prescriptions.

 

In the spiritual world even there is a certain order, though his(its) basis is not material, nevertheless. For example there nobody can become the God. It is possible to try to make here. As soon as the soul thinks - " And why not I? " Before it(her) the opportunity opens enter the material world what completely to find out why. Probably everything, but not probably become the God, as the God is independent, the soul as sometimes and very seldom can show such desire, this rule(situation) of the God, but sometimes soul tries as to borrow(occupy) it(him). Formally we agree to devoted service, but is real all of us still we borrow(occupy) a position enjoying or God, this contradiction. We want to return, but with such consciousness there do not live, if we have a lot of independent desires??? We many do not know, but the Supersoul knows all. If they are how here to be? Then we have done here against others much and under the law of general validity we should receive reactions back? Demons always in a rate who also that does(makes) also they always shout in a slightest occasion and without an occasion the God can cross all laws, that he and does(makes), but is not constant. Actually He speaks - " Well leave, I shall help you ", but what leave it there should be OUR desire, the God does not work against OUR desires. Because what will be for love, if I it do not want? Therefore it is the thin moment, the God can everything, question only behind us. And the qualification, especially in devoted service is really necessary, sincere devotee can be released(exempted) from the very beginning, but what to serve much that would be necessary. The spiritual world is filled by activity here again we simply we begin under the circuit and in due course we work consciously, then becomes possible(probable) bhakti yoga.

 

Who only accepts that of the God and there are sects which at this level, who that with Vaikuntha, who that devotee the Lord Rama, who that goes through maximum planets, at some the fidelity is mixed with fidelity demigods...., there are many levels of consciousness and accordingly many sects, it is correct. The service in mood of greatness of the God always clears and from him(it) can be shown sakhya for example on kripa.

 

That on Goloka nobody knows what is Lord Narayana? There can be they do not remember it(him) constantly, but whom then they worship as the God? Can be there live ateists?

 

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

But the performance sadana gives to any guarantee of reception kripa... (Kailasa)

 

Bhagavata Purana describes how Hari sports His lilas. Once mother Yasoda was trying to bound baby Krsna?s belly with some ropes but she could not. It was always missing two fingers of width to tie Krsna?s belly in spite of all ropes that she could tie one another. Krsna?s belly was so small, but not even all the ropes of Goloka tied together could tie it. It was always lacking two little fingers of width. After a very long effort and so many hardships, finally Yasoda could tie Krsna?s belly, when He decided to agree with His mother?s desire.

 

It is said that one finger lacking is sadhana and the other is krpa. They are always there, as everyone is doing some kind of sadhana and Hari?s krpa is always present. But the final result will be only attained by exclusive Hari?s free will and nothing else. One may be very near to the point of to bound Krsna, maybe only two fingers will be missing. But when he will really attain Hari? Only when Hari shall agree with that!!!

The Krsna of Vraja doesn't `decide` to allow Himself to be controlled by the gopis' spontaneous devotion, He is helpless before it, as He Himself admits. Mother Yasoda felt intense conflicting emotion as she gazed into Krsna's mouth realizing that He was no ordinary boy, yet it was her motherly duty to discipline Him. Krsna enjoyed the conflicting feelings He was inspiring in Her, but when He saw how painful it was for His mother, her love forced Him to surrender.

 

Fearful intimidation and reluctance based on awe and reverence must at some point be transcended by the natural spontaneous rush of devotional feelings inspired by the need of personal intimate relationship.

 

Krsna is under the absolute control of Radhika. Without understanding who She is and what this means for us all, the practice of bhakti remains very limited indeed, since She is it's very essence.

 

JAI NITAI-GAURANGA! JAI JAI SRI RADHE!!!

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-05-2001).]

[kailasa]

> Fearful intimidation and reluctance based on awe and reverence must at some point be transcended by the natural spontaneous rush of devotional feelings inspired by the need of personal intimate relationship.

 

You think what all this simply your feelings? You are already happy enough having the intimate attitudes(relations)? With whom you have them? Forgive My God.

 

> Krsna is under the absolute control of Radhika.

 

I am already tired to listen to this song in Russia you also here write something, anything in it not understanding. Why then Lord Caitanya searches Krisna, why not Radha?... absolute control...

 

[amanpeter]

Originally posted by kailasa:

> Fearful intimidation and reluctance based on awe and reverence must at some point be transcended by the natural spontaneous rush of devotional feelings inspired by the need of personal intimate relationship.

 

You think what all this simply your feelings? You are already happy enough having the intimate attitudes(relations)? With whom you have them? Forgive My God.

 

> Krsna is under the absolute control of Radhika.

 

I am already tired to listen to this song in Russia you also here write something, anything in it not understanding. Why then Lord Caitanya searches Krisna, why not Radha?... absolute control...

 

'Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear

'Twas Grace my fears relieved

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound

That hour I first believed!

 

(From hymn "Amazing Grace")

 

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 09-05-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Sadana gives cleanliness and nothing gives simultaneously, if we correctly carry out sadana we gradually we achieve success, if we simply try to make from this the mechanism, all stops. (Kailasa)

 

This is a general thesis. By following karma, jñana, bhakti, or any other process such as Tantra, one will be cleaned. He will finally lost the sense of ahamta (I am) and mamata (this is mine) and he should be considered as a pure jivatma, suddha-sattvic.

 

And then what happens? He will for certain attain Hari? The Ultimate Reality? No! There is no guarantee even then. He may be placed again into the Causal Ocean according Gaudiyas’ theology (as he is a tathasta-jiva), or may fall again under the spell of maya according the orthodox viewpoint.

 

He only will attain Hari due Hari’s free will and nothing else. No matter whatever he has done in this world, a clearing or a ‘dirtining’ process.

 

Hari absolute free will is always prevalent. Sadhana and krpa alone are but means to get near to the aim, but no one attains the aim without Hari’s free will and personal decision. No matter how ‘clean’ he may be. This is the precept of Siksastakam!!!

 

[talasiga]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

And then what happens? He will for certain attain Hari? The Ultimate Reality? No! There is no guarantee even then. He may be placed again into the Causal Ocean according Gaudiyas’ theology (as he is a tathasta-jiva), or may fall again under the spell of maya according the orthodox viewpoint.

In the depths of our fallibility

the Black Pearler

smiles brightly

 

 

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[amanpeter]

Satyaraja das, I do hope that your Hari includes Hara! JAI RADHE!

[Guest guest]

You must rise early (before 4:00 AM), attend the mangala arati, attend the classes, chant at least 16 good rounds daily, and observe the four basic principles. These things you must do without fail otherwise, there is no question of spiritual life.

 

“The Holy Name is so powerful that it must act,” that assertive has a sruti support (Katha Upanisad 1.2.16-17):

 

“Yama said: The goal which all the Vedas declare, which all austerities aim at, and which men desire when they lead the life of continence, I will tell you briefly: it is Om.

 

“This syllable Om is indeed Brahman. This syllable is the Highest. Whosoever knows this syllable obtains all that he desires.”

 

‘But when one states that ‘one must rise early (before 4:00 AM), attend the mangala arati, attend the classes, chant at least 16 good rounds daily, and observe the four basic principles.utters the Holy Name with offenses...’, and now he is creating a theology that is clearly placing Brahman in a conditional case; Holy Name will manifest Himself as the Brahman if[/f]:’ one rise early (before 4:00 AM), attend the mangala arati, attend the classes, chant at least 16 good rounds daily, and observe the four basic principles.’ So, this theology is clearly denying the principle that Brahman is absolute and not ruled by any condition.

 

Sruti states that Parabrahman cannot be attained by any religious process:

 

“This Atman cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas, or by intelligence, or by much hearing of sacred books. It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Atman reveals Its own form.” (Katha Upanisad 1.2.23)

 

So, the conclusion one should attain following sruti texts is that “no devotional theology is satisfactory to explain why Harinama doesn't manifest Himself immediately as Bhagavan as soon as He is uttered by someone. The only explanation that one may find is the absolute free will of Bhagavan to manifest Himself as His name, form, associates, pastimes, and so on. No religious discipline will cause any interference in Hari's free will.”

 

 

[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 09-06-2001).]

[talasiga]

Hari Hara Hira

Mary Mere Mira

Isu Usi Isa

Chandni ke Seesa

 

 

 

------------------

talasiga@hotmail.com

[talasiga]

I think

Satyaraja is on his way

to India.........

 

Bon VoyaaJI !

[Guest guest]

Hara and Hari are but names of Brahman. All names are but names of Brahman.

 

Brahman is the one who has all the absolute designations!

 

Hare, Hara and Hari are not different Brahmans.

[talasiga]

munch munch munch

 

Eh ! What's up Doc ?

 

[mel9]

Originally posted by talasiga:

munch munch munch

 

Eh ! What's up Doc ?

 

Note: why i`ll be damned! it`s talasiga who`s

behind all these atrocities. calling fbi and the cia, i have here the master taliban.