Conversion

[shvu 1]

 

Although religion is essentially one in that its ultimate aim is to facilitate love of God,there are many levels and varieties of religions and there are always new things to learn and discover.There is always room for improvment.

An example:

 

A christian thinks his religion is complete; Jesus's message is complete, that there is no possible "improvement" that can be made on his religion. The bible says, Jesus is the only true messiah. Jesus also says "many false prophets will rise in my name and will deceive many". This being the situation, can you give an example of an improvement that iskcon offers, over christianity?

 

Although religion is essentially one in that its ultimate aim is to facilitate love of God...

Buddhism, the third largest religion in the world does not talk about love of/to God.

 

Krsna Consciousness has much to teach the whole human society.

 

I would like a specific example here.

 

Thanx

 

[Ajay Shah 0]

Simply, a Hindu or Aryan is someone who is born in a Hindu family.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Ajay Shah (edited 08-13-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by Ajay Shah (edited 08-13-2001).]

[Ajay Shah 0]

"You will see that Sanatana Dharma is the true evolving religion established by God himself for the benefit of the living entities on Eartha."

 

 

[leyh 0]

Originally posted by shvu:

Buddhism, the third largest religion in the world does not talk about love of/to God.

 

 

I would like a specific example here.

 

Thanx

Dear Satyaraja dasa and Shvu:

In many of Srila Prabhupada's writings,lectures and informal conversations,we find that His Divine Grace constantly impressed upon his readers/listeners the teaching that we are not our bodies,we are spirit souls,and that we can only be really happy by association with God,who is the Supreme Soul.In my humble opinion, I feel that this is a teaching which all theistic (obviously Buddhism would not be included in this category)religions can learn from.

 

Another example of what Krsna Consciousness can teach the whole human society is the principle of friendliness towards all human beings.This is connected to the idea that we are spirit souls and not our bodies.In this material world,we have been conditioned to think of ourselves along nationalistic or racial lines,but Krsna Consciousness offers human society another alternative: to think of ourselves not as Chinese,American,Indian,Britons etc. but as spirit souls who are all children of the Supreme Lord.Conflict between races and nations have caused so much suffering since time immemorial. Maybe the world would be kinder and gentler if human society took a few lessons in some Krsna Consciousness.

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 08-13-2001).]

[Maitreya 0]

Originally posted by Ajay Shah:

In my opinion, a Hindu (Aryan) is someone who is born in a Hindu family.

 

Humbly,

A.J. SHAW.

 

 

Ajay,respectful I ask you to consider this point carefully.

The Sanatan Dharma is inspearable from the soul as liquidity is from water.It exists independently from any religous rituals or genetic coding.This quality of ours[the souls]is service and when most finely expressed is called Vaisnavism.

 

Being a part of the very fabric of our being it is open to all irrespective of birth, caste or religious affiliation.

 

Sabrina, we all have an eternal connection with Krishna[God] that is eternal.It predates the universe.Converting from one religious designation to another will not be of much value to us.

 

What we need is the correct instruction on how to awaken to our higher nature.That instruction must come from one who is himself awakened.

 

Such instruction has been kindly given to the world by His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami in the form of His books and distribution of the chanting of Hare Krishna.

 

You do not require the permission of anyone to take it up.We need only accept the gift.

 

Hare Krishna

MC

 

 

[shvu 1]

 

In many of Srila Prabhupada's writings,lectures and informal conversations,we find that His Divine Grace constantly impressed upon his readers/listeners the teaching that we are not our bodies,we are spirit souls,and that we can only be really happy by association with God,who is the Supreme Soul.

The only catch here is that this is not a new concept of iskcon to consider it as an improvement over other religions; for this concept is present in most religions and thus has been been around for many years now.

 

About human values, once again I must disappoint you for all values taught by any spiritual group today have been around for a long time and no group can claim to have come up with brand new values which were not known to man before. It is simply a rehash of the same old concepts.

 

Basically no religion/group can be called an improvement over any other religion (except by it's own adherents). It is just like the ads that you see on TV where a new soap comes up and claims to clean better [an improvement] than all other soaps in the market. That is not to say that the new soap is bad; it is just another item to be added to an already long list of soaps and has nothing unique about it as claimed.

 

Cheers

 

[shvu 1]

Maitreya,

 

Sanathana Dharma ...when most finely expressed is called Vaisnavism.

Where did you get this information from? What is Sanathana Dharma, when moderately expressed?

 

Thanx

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 08-13-2001).]

[Guest guest]

Leyh:His Divine Grace constantly impressed upon his readers/listeners the teaching that we are not our bodies,we are spirit souls,and that we can only be really happy by association with God,who is the Supreme Soul.

 

Satyaraj: This is also found in Christianims, Islamism and all Semitic religions. This is nothing new or original. But when a soul is not associated with Hari? Is it any circumstance that a soul is associated with a non-Hari? Sruti states: khalav idam brahma - 'everything is that Supreme Being.' Therefore His Divine Grace seems to constantly impressed upon his readers/listeners the teaching that bodies are different than Hari, or that embodied souls are separated from Hari, or that unhappy people are apart from Hari. Are you apart from Hari's lila?

 

Leyh: Another example of what Krsna Consciousness can teach the whole human society is the principle of friendliness towards all human beings.

 

Satyaraj: This is purest Cristianism. Read St John's Gospel to clarify this point.

 

Leyh: Conflict between races and nations have caused so much suffering since time immemorial.

 

Satyaraj: Now His Divine Grace kindly came to put some more fuel to that fire. Those who don't follow his religious principles are called rascals, karmis, demons, atheists, and so on. What is really new in his teachings?

 

[Guest guest]

Maitreya: Converting from one religious designation to another will not be of much value to us... Such instruction has been kindly given to the world by His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami in the form of His books and distribution of the chanting of Hare Krishna.

 

Satyaraj: That is simple fantastic! Now His Divine Grace is not a missionary anymore! He just has instructed: "Be a good Christian, worship Jesus and chant Hare Krsna!" For certain his books are on Christianism too!? An Indian version on Gospels?! And his Iskcon is a Roman Synagogue.

 

[Ajay Shah 0]

Sorry.

 

[This message has been edited by Ajay Shah (edited 08-13-2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by Ajay Shah (edited 08-13-2001).]

[amanpeter 0]

While we are at it, can you please let me know how the soap analogy is poor?

 

Cheers

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 08-13-2001).]

 

There have been some amazing advances in soaps, but perhaps you are using something else for washing. Please see recent discussion on Dharma-mela forum.

 

------------------

No offense meant to anyone...

[Gauracandra 1]

There are many similiarities in various religions. But what separates one religion from another most often is the mood of surrender. Many people are leaving Christianity, not because they don't value spiritual life. Rather, the mood of the Christian church does not coincide with their own internal quest. One of the things Srila Prabhupada brought was a mood not found in many western religions (or atleast dormant). Many westerners left Christianity because it didn't appeal to them. Instead they rejected the religion of their youth and took to materialistic processes which were often self-destructive (sex, drugs, etc...). Then Srila Prabhupada brought them a new mood that they previously had not experienced, and it re-attracted them to God. Religions have many common goals, but often different moods. I'm reminded of something Alan Ginsberg once said about how he loved what Srila Prabhupada had done, he had found many people who were in the darkness and gave them something that gave them hope and light (I wish I had the exact quote but I don't).

 

Gauracandra

 

[This message has been edited by Gauracandra (edited 08-13-2001).]

[Maitreya 0]

Originally posted by shvu:

Maitreya,

 

Where did you get this information from? What is Sanathana Dharma, when moderately expressed?

 

Thanx

Service is the inescapable function of the soul.It's finest expression is when it is freely offered to God in the mood of love.Vaisnavism.

 

Since the mayic worlds are also Krishna the soul is always serving Him in some form and in some fashion.But it is less than fine as bhakti is not present.

 

Sources are any Vaisnava's literature.You don't accept the personalist viewpoint so why would I waste time trying to convince you.Just as you would be wasting time trying to convince me of the impersonalist path.

 

We just agree to disagree shvu.

 

Ajay, I apologize if I misunderstood your post.I'm not sure if I did, but may have.

 

Hare Krishna

MC

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Maitreya (edited 08-13-2001).]

[Maitreya 0]

Originally posted by Satyaraja dasa:

Maitreya: Converting from one religious designation to another will not be of much value to us... Such instruction has been kindly given to the world by His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami in the form of His books and distribution of the chanting of Hare Krishna.

 

Satyaraj: That is simple fantastic! Now His Divine Grace is not a missionary anymore! He just has instructed: "Be a good Christian, worship Jesus and chant Hare Krsna!" For certain his books are on Christianism too!? An Indian version on Gospels?! And his Iskcon is a Roman Synagogue.

Satyaraja,

 

What are you mumbling about?Read the book of John and tell me you don't see Vaisnavism.In the past you said you consider that John wrote that book from the position of sahaja-samadhi.

 

Everyday its a new Satyaraja.I can't keep up.

 

Hare Krishna,

MC

 

 

[talasiga 0]

Prabhupaad

 

His teachings may have some faults

but His Glance is Infallible

 

tearful talasiga@hotmail.com

[Ajay Shah 0]

?

 

[This message has been edited by Ajay Shah (edited 08-14-2001).]

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by Ajay Shah:

In my opinion, christianity is just some type of impersonalism disguised as devotional service by modern day Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada followers. In other words: False religion. The latter have converted in into a superior path back to Godhead. IT"S NOT.

[This message has been edited by Ajay Shah (edited 08-13-2001).]

Dear AJ

please keep editing

until you find

peace of mind

T

 

 

[amanpeter 0]

 

Service is the inescapable function of the soul.It's finest expression is when it is freely offered to

God in the mood of love.Vaisnavism.

 

Since the mayic worlds are also Krishna the soul is always serving Him in some form and in

some fashion.But it is less than fine as bhakti is not present.

Great explanation, Maitreya prabhu. I would only add that when completely purified, love itself becomes the highest service and that alone is directly relished by Sri Krsna personally. It is solely through the association of Srimati Radharani and Her maidservants that such purification is achieved. At some point I feel it is necessary to try and understand the emotional component of our connection to His Divine Grace.

[amanpeter 0]

Originally posted by talasiga:

Prabhupaad

 

His teachings may have some faults

but His Glance is Infallible

 

tearful talasiga@hotmail.com

 

Dear prabhu, As one who was fortunate enough to personally receive his `infallible glance`, along with it's inevitable consequences, I too am tearful on this his appearance day. Thanks for the opportunity to share these thoughts and feelings.

 

 

[amanpeter 0]

Everyday its a new Satyaraja.I can't keep up.

 

Hare Krishna,

MC

Methinks our dear friend Satyaraja may at times experience some difficulty keeping up with himself! Not to worry.

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by amanpeter:

Dear prabhu, As one who was fortunate enough ........

 

Dear Amanpeter

your reciprocity is always appreciated

but please dont call me "prabhu"

I come as a friend

not as a master

 

 

fortunate talasiga@hotmail.com

 

 

[leyh 0]

Dear Shvu:

I don't remember saying in any of my posts here that I think of ISKCON as an improvment over other religions.What I did say was that I felt that Krsna Consciousness has much to teach the whole human society.But I don't think you will ever agree with me on that since Krsna is a non-person for you.You are free to believe whatever you want and I don't see any point in continued discussion on the issue as we are approaching it from different perspectives.

 

You write that:"Basically no religion/group can be called an improvement over any other religion (except by it's own adherents). It is just like the ads that you see on TV where a new soap comes up and claims to clean better [an improvement] than all other soaps in the market. That is not to say that the new soap is bad; it is just another item to be added to an already long list of soaps and has nothing unique about it as claimed." All I can say is that you are entitled to your own opinions and I am not inclined to engage in argumentative debate over abstract generalizations and poor analogies

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 08-13-2001).]

[shvu 1]

Dear leyh,

 

Although religion is essentially one in that its ultimate aim is to facilitate love of God,there are many levels and varieties of religions and there are always new things to learn and discover.There is always room for improvment.Krsna Consciousness has much to teach the whole human society.

These were your exact words.

 

If someone really meant what he said when he said all religions were one, he would not start a new organization and tell his disciples to find as many other disciples as possible. It also reminds me of another post made here by someone, sometime back, about his divine grace [in an interview] calling his competitors [other Indian Gurus who came to the US] as rascals while he himself was "authorized" by Krishna. Hardly the attitude of someone who believes all religions are one.

 

While we are at it, can you please let me know how the soap analogy is poor?

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 08-13-2001).]

[Guest guest]

 

Amanpeter:I feel it is necessary to try and understand the emotional component of our connection to His Divine Grace.

 

Satyaraj: Yes, you are quite right! This connection is merely emotional. That's to say, caused by material mind and its primitive attachments.

 

No one of you could support the thesis of His Divine Grace's great contribution for the welfare of the humankind. Instead of it, it is clear that His Divine Grace kindly came to put some more fuel to the fire of the religious conflict among people. New name-calling expressions such as rascals, karmis, demons, atheists, to term the non-followers of his sect is all that we got.

 

[talasiga 0]

Originally posted by amanpeter:

At some point I feel it is necessary to try and understand the emotional component

These emotions are the substance of the soul

Those who turn towards the Divine

see the illumination within them

Those who turn away

see shadows

 

The Vallabhi-s host many spiritual masters

With their art of Raag music

they explore these emotions

to their very Source

 

Have you heard this mysterious music

Played at different times of the day

Or might you have seen It

In that One Glance

of Abhay Charan De ?

 

Bhairavi Thumri talasiga@hotmail.com