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Puru Das Adhikari

Prabodhananda Saraswati, part 2

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A disciple tries to fix the order of Sri guru as his intelligence. Otherwise no need for guru,just do what you will, when you will, how you will and try to approach any topic of transcendence through conditioned senses, instead of purified devotional intelligence. Throw away your copy of Bg. It isn't sruti. We are all so intelligent that we find ourselves facing certain death. Where has our "intelligence" gotten us to date?


Consoider the points made in the dialogue between Sarvabhouma Bhattacayra and Gopinatha acarya in Cc.Madhya lila Chapter 6. Here is just a bit of it:





The disciples of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya retaliated, "By what evidence do you conclude that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Lord?" Gopinatha Acarya replied, "The statements of authorized acaryas who understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead are proof."




Since the appearance of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, there have been many pseudo incarnations in India who do not present authorized evidence. Five hundred years ago the disciples of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, being very learned scholars, were certainly right in asking Gopinatha Acarya for evidence. If a person proposes that he himself is God or that someone else is an incarnation of God or God Himself, he must cite evidence from sastra to prove his claim. Thus the request of the Bhattacarya's disciples is quite bona fide. Unfortunately, at the present moment it has become fashionable to present someone as an incarnation of God without referring to the sastras. Before an intelligent person accepts someone as an incarnation of God, however, he must ask about the evidence. When the disciples of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya challenged Gopinatha Acarya, he immediately replied correctly: "We must hear the statements of great personalities in order to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Lord Krsna is established as the Supreme Personality of Godhead by statements from authorized persons like Brahma, Narada, Vyasadeva, Asita, Arjuna and many others. Similarly, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is also established as the Supreme Personality of Godhead by evidence from the same personalities. This will be explained later.





The disciples of the Bhattacarya said, "We derive knowledge of the Absolute Truth by logical hypothesis." Gopinatha Acarya replied, "One cannot attain real knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by such logical hypothesis and argument."




The Mayavadi philosophers in particular make certain hypotheses about the Absolute Truth. They reason that in the material world we experience that everything is created. If we trace the history of anything, we find a creator. Therefore there must be a creator of this huge cosmic manifestation. By such reasoning they come to the conclusion that a higher power has created this cosmic manifestation. The Mayavadis do not accept this great power to be a person. Their brains cannot accommodate the fact that this huge cosmic manifestation can be created by a person. They doubt this because as soon as they think of a person, they think of a person within the material world with limited potency. Sometimes the Mayavadi philosophers will accept Lord Krsna or Lord Rama as Bhagavan, but they think of the Lord as a person having a material body. The Mayavadis do not understand that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, has a spiritual body. They think of Krsna as a great personality, a human being, within whom there is the supreme impersonal power, Brahman. Therefore they finally conclude that the impersonal Brahman is the Supreme, not the personality Krsna. This is the basis of Mayavadi philosophy. However, from the sastras we can understand that the Brahman effulgence is the bodily rays of Krsna:


yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti-

kotisv asesa-vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam

tad brahma niskalam anantam asesa-bhutam

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami


"I serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda, the primeval Lord, the effulgence of whose transcendental body is known as the brahmajyoti. That brahmajyoti, which is unlimited, unfathomed and all-pervasive, is the cause of the creation of unlimited numbers of planets with varieties of climates and specific conditions of life." (Brahma-samhita 5.40)

Mayavadi philosophers study the Vedic literature, but they do not understand that the Absolute Truth in the last stage of realization is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. They do accept the fact that there is a creator of this cosmic manifestation, but that is anumana (hypothesis). The Mayavadi philosopher's logic is something like seeing smoke on a hill. When there is a forest fire on a high hill, smoke is first of all visible. The smoke is created when there is fire. Just as one can conclude that there is fire from seeing smoke, from seeing this cosmic manifestation the Mayavadi philosophers conclude that there must be a creator.

The disciples of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya wanted evidence to show that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was actually the creator of the cosmic manifestation. Only then would they accept Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the original cause of creation. Gopinatha Acarya replied that one could not understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by guesswork. As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita (7.25):


naham prakasah sarvasya


mudho 'yam nabhijanati

loko mam ajam avyayam


"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yogamaya]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." (Bg. 7.25) The Supreme Personality of Godhead reserves the right of not being exposed to nondevotees. He can only be understood by bona fide devotees. Lord Krsna says elsewhere in the Bhagavad-gita (18.55), bhaktya mam abhijanati: "One can understand Me only by the devotional process." In the Fourth Chapter of the Bhagavad-gita (4.3) Lord Krsna says, bhakto 'si me sakha ceti rahasyam hy etad uttamam. Here Lord Krsna informs Arjuna that He is disclosing the secrets of Bhagavad-gita to him because he is His devotee. Arjuna was not a sannyasi, nor was he a Vedantist or brahmana. He was, however, a devotee of Krsna. The conclusion is that we have to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the devotees. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself says, guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija. (Cc. Madhya 19.151)

More evidence can be cited to show that without the mercy of a devotee or the mercy of Krsna, one cannot understand what is Krsna and what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in the next verse.





Gopinatha Acarya continued, "One can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead only by His mercy, not by guesswork or hypothesis."




One cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead simply by exhibiting some mundane magic. Foolish people are enchanted by magical demonstrations, and when they see a few wonderful things done by mystical power, they accept a magician as the Personality of Godhead or an incarnation. This is not the way of realization. Nor should one guess or speculate about an incarnation of God or the Personality of Godhead. One has to learn from the bona fide person or from the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, as Arjuna did, by the mercy of Krsna. Krsna Himself also gives many hints about His potencies as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One should understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead only through the evidence presented by the sastras and the mahajanas. In any case, one must have the mercy of the Lord in order to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by devotional service.





The Acarya continued, "If one receives but a tiny bit of the Lord's favor by dint of devotional service, he can understand the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.




" 'My Lord, if one is favored by even a slight trace of the mercy of Your lotus feet, he can understand the greatness of Your personality. But those who speculate in order to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead are unable to know You, even though they continue to study the Vedas for many years.' "




The above verse is from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.14.29). The Brahma-samhita states, vedesu durlabham adurlabham atma-bhaktau (Brahma-samhita 5.33). Although the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, is the ultimate goal of knowledge (vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah), one who is not a pure devotee and who is not engaged in the service of the Lord cannot understand Him. Lord Brahma therefore confirms this. Vedesu durlabham: "It is very difficult to understand the Supreme Lord simply through one's studies." Adurlabham atma-bhaktau: "However, it is very easy for the devotees to capture the Lord." The Lord is known as ajita (unconquerable). No one can conquer the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the Lord consents to be conquered by His devotees. That is His nature. As stated in the Padma Purana:


atah sri-krsna-namadi

na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jihvadau

svayam eva sphuraty adah


Being pleased by devotional activities, the Lord reveals Himself to His devotees. That is the way to understand Him.

The verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam quoted by Gopinatha Acarya was originally spoken by Lord Brahma when he was defeated by Lord Krsna. Lord Brahma had stolen all the calves and cowherd boys in order to test Krsna's power. Lord Brahma admitted that his own extraordinary powers within the universe were not in the least comparable to the unlimited powers of Lord Krsna. If Lord Brahma can make a mistake in understanding Krsna, what to speak of ordinary persons, who either misunderstand Krsna or falsely present a so-called incarnation of Krsna for their own sense gratification.


TEXTS 85-86



Gopinatha Acarya then addressed Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya: "You are a great scholar and a teacher of may disciples. Indeed, there is no other scholar like you on earth. Nonetheless, because you are bereft of even a pinch of the Lord's mercy, you cannot understand Him, even though He is present in your home.





"It is not your fault; it is the verdict of the scriptures. You cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead simply by scholarship."




This is a very important verse. Even big scholars cannot understand Krsna, yet they dare comment on the Bhagavad-gita. Reading the Bhagavad-gita means understanding Krsna, yet we actually see many scholars making blunders in trying to understand Krsna. Gopinatha Acarya's statement is confirmed in many places in Vedic literature. In the Katha Upanisad (1.2.23) it is stated:


nayam atma pravacanena labhyo

na medhaya na bahuna srutena

yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas

tasyaisa atma vivrnute tanum svam


It is also stated in Katha Upanisad (1.2.9):


naisa tarkena matir apaneya

proktanyenaiva sujnanaya prestha

yam tvam apah satya-dhrtir batasi

tvadrn no bhuyan naciketah prasta


The fact is that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supersoul, cannot be attained simply by explanations, logic and erudite scholarship. One cannot understand Him simply by one's brain substance. Even by studying all Vedic literature, one cannot understand the Supreme Lord. However, if one is slightly favored by the mercy of the Lord, if the Lord is pleased, one can understand Him. But who are the candidates eligible to receive the mercy of the Lord? Only the devotees. They alone can understand what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Lord reveals Himself to the sincere devotee when He is pleased with his service: svayam eva sphuraty adah. One should not try to understand the Lord simply from the statements of the Vedas, nor should one uselessly attempt to decry these statements through reasoning and logic.





Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya replied, "My dear Gopinatha Acarya, please speak with great care. What is the proof that you have received the mercy of the Lord?"





Gopinatha Acarya replied, "Knowledge of the summum bonum, the Absolute Truth, is evidence of the mercy of the Supreme Lord."




Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya informed his brother-in-law, Gopinatha Acarya, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead may not have shown mercy to me, but what is the proof of His having shown it to you? Kindly let us know about this." in reply to this, Gopinatha Acarya said that the summum bonum, the Absolute Truth, and His different potencies are identical. Therefore one can understand the substance of the Absolute Truth by the manifestation of His different potencies. The summum bonum includes all potencies in one unit. The Absolute Truth combined with different characteristics is the original substance (vastu): parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate.

Thus the Vedas state that the Absolute Truth has different potencies. When one understands the characteristics of the potencies of the Absolute Truth, one is aware of the Absolute Truth. On the material platform as well, one can understand the substance by the manifestation of its symptoms. For example, when there is heat, it is to be understood that there is fire. The heat of the fire is perceived directly. The fire may not be visible, but one can search out the fire by feeling heat. Similarly, if one can perceive the characteristics of the Absolute Truth, we can know that he has understood the substance of the Absolute Truth by the mercy of the Lord.

In the Bhagavad-gita (7.25) it is said, naham prakasah sarvasya The Supreme Personality of Godhead reserves the right of not being exposed to everyone. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah: "The Lord reveals Himself to a devotee when He is completely satisfied by the devotee's service." Thus one cannot understand the Supreme Lord without His mercy. The Absolute Truth cannot be understood by speculation, and this is the conclusion of the Bhagavad-gita.





Gopinatha Acarya continued, "You have seen the symptoms of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the body of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu during His absorption in an ecstatic mood.





"Despite directly perceiving the symptoms of the Supreme Lord in the body of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, you cannot understand Him. This is commonly called illusion.




Gopinatha Acarya is pointing out that Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya had already seen uncommon symptoms of ecstasy in the body of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

These uncommon symptoms of ecstatic love indicated the Supreme Person, but despite having seen all these symptoms, the Bhattacarya could not understand the Lord's transcendental nature. He was considering the Lord's pastimes to be mundane. This was certainly due to illusion.





"A person influenced by the external energy is called bahirmukha jana, a mundane person, because despite his perception, he cannot understand the real substance." Hearing Gopinatha Acarya say this, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya smiled and began to speak as follows.




When one's heart is not cleansed, one cannot awaken the transcendental nature of devotional service. As confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (7.28):


yesam tv anta-gatam papam

jananam punya-karmanam

te dvandva-moha-nirmukta

bhajante mam drdha-vratah


"Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life and whose sinful actions are completely eradicated are freed from the dualities of delusion, and they engage themselves in My service with determination."

When one is actually engaged in pure devotional service, it is understood that he has already attained freedom from all reactions to sinful activities. In other words, it is to be understood that devotees are already freed from sin. A sinful person, a miscreant (duskrti, cannot engage in devotional service. Nor can one engage in devotional service simply on the basis of scholarly speculation. One has to wait for the mercy of the Lord in order to render pure devotional service.





The Bhattacarya said, "We are just having a discussion among friends and considering the points described in the scriptures. Do not become angry. I am simply speaking on the strength of the sastras. Please don't take any offense.





"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is certainly a great, uncommon devotee, but we cannot accept Him as an incarnation of Lord Visnu because, according to sastra, there is no incarnation in this Age of Kali.





"Another name for Lord Visnu is Triyuga because there is no incarnation of Lord Visnu in Kali-yuga. Indeed, this is the verdict of revealed scriptures."




Upon hearing this, Gopinatha Acarya became very unhappy. He said to the Bhattacarya, "You consider yourself the knower of all Vedic scriptures.




"Srimad-Bhagavatam and the Mahabharata are the two most important Vedic scriptures, but you have paid no attention to their statements.







"In Srimad-Bhagavatam and Mahabharata it is stated that the Lord appears directly, but you say that in this age there is no manifestation or incarnation of Lord Visnu.




"In this Age of Kali there is no lila-avatara of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore He is known as Triyuga. That is one of His holy names."




A lila-avatara is an incarnation of the Lord who performs a variety of activities without making any special endeavor. He always has one pastime after another, all full of transcendental pleasure, and these pastimes are fully controlled by the Supreme Person. The Supreme Person is totally independent of all others in these pastimes. While teaching Sanatana Gosvami (Cc. Madhya 20.296-298), Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu pointed out that one cannot count the number of lila-avataras:


lilavatara krsnera na yaya ganana

pradhana kariya kahi dig-darasana


"However," the Lord told Sanatana, "I shall explain the chief lila-avataras."


matsya, kurma, raghunatha, nrsimha, vamana

varahadi----lekha yanra na yaya ganana


Thus the Lord's incarnations were enumerated, including Matsya, the fish incarnation; Kurma, the tortoise; Lord Ramacandra; Nrsimhadeva; Vamanadeva; and Varaha, the boar incarnation. Thus there are innumerable lila-avataras, and all of these exhibit wonderful pastimes. Lord Varaha, the boar incarnation, lifted the entire planet earth from the depths of the Garbhodaka Ocean. The tortoise incarnation, Lord Kurma, became a pivot for the emulsification of the whole sea, and Lord Nrsimhadeva appeared as half-man, half-lion. These are some of the wonderful and uncommon features of lila-avataras.

In his book Laghu-bhagavatamrta, Srila Rupa Gosvami has enumerated the following twenty-five lila-avataras: Catuh-sana, Narada, Varaha, Matsya, Yajna, Nara-Narayana, Kapila, Dattatreya, Hayasirsa (Hayagriva), Hamsa, Prsnigarbha, Rsabha, Prthu, Nrsimha, Kurma, Dhanvantari, Mohini, Vamana, Parasurama, Raghavendra, Vyasa, Balarama, Krsna, Buddha and Kalki.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is not mentioned as a lila-avatara because He is an incarnation in disguise (channa-avatara). In this Age of Kali there are no lila-avataras, but there is an incarnation of the Lord manifested in the body of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This has been explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam.


TEXT 100


Gopinatha Acarya continued, "There is certainly an incarnation in every age, and such an incarnation is called the yuga-avatara. But your heart has become so hardened by logic and argument that you cannot consider all these facts.


TEXT 101



" 'In the past, your son has had bodies of three different colors, according to the age. These colors were white, red and yellow. In this age [Dvapara-yuga] He has accepted a blackish body.'




This verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.8.13) was spoken by Garga Muni when he was performing the rituals at Lord Krsna's name-giving ceremony. He states that the incarnations of the Lord in other ages had been white, red and yellow. This yellow color refers to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, whose bodily complexion was yellowish. This confirms that in the past Kali-yugas, the Lord also had incarnated in a body that was yellow in hue. It is understood that the Lord incarnates in different colors for the different yugas (Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali). Accepting the color yellow (pita), as well as other characteristics, the Lord incarnated as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This is the verdict of all Vedic authorities.


TEXT 102


" 'In the Age of Kali, as well as in Dvapara-yuga, the people offer prayers to the Supreme Personality of Godhead by various mantras and observe the regulative principles of the supplementary Vedic literature. Now please hear of this from me.




This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.5.31).


TEXT 103



" 'In this Age of Kali, those who are intelligent perform the congregational chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who appears in this age always describing the glories of Krsna. That incarnation is yellowish in hue and is always associated with His plenary expansions [such as Sri Nityananda Prabhu] and personal expansions [such as Gadadhara], as well as His devotees and associates [such as Svarupa Damodara].'




This verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.5.32) is explained by Sri Jiva Gosvami in his Krama-sandarbha, as quoted by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in regard to the explanation of Adi-lila, Third Chapter, verse 52.


TEXT 104


" 'The Lord [in the incarnation of Gaurasundara] has a golden complexion. Indeed, His entire body, which is very nicely constituted, is like molten gold. Sandalwood pulp is smeared all over His body. He will take the fourth order of spiritual life [sannyasa] and will be very self-controlled. He will be distinguished from Mayavadi sannyasis in that He will be fixed in devotional service and will spread the sankirtana movement.' "




Gopinatha Acarya quoted this verse from the Mahabharata's Visnu-sahasra-nama-stotra.


TEXT 105



Gopinatha Acarya then said, "There is no need to quote so much evidence from the sastras, for you are a very dry speculator. There is no need to sow seeds in barren land.


TEXT 106



"When the Lord will be pleased with you, you will also understand these conclusions and will quote from the sastras.


TEXT 107



"The false arguments and philosophical word jugglery of your disciples are not faults of theirs. They have simply received the benediction of Mayavada philosophy.


TEXT 108


" 'I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is full of unlimited qualities and whose different potencies bring about agreement and disagreement between disputants. Thus the illusory energy again and again covers the self-realization of both disputants.'






sastra-yuktye sunipuna, drdha-sraddha yanra

'uttama-adhikari' sei taraye samsara




sastra-yuktye--in argument and logic; su-nipuna--very expert; drdha-sraddha--firm faith and confidence in Krsna; yanra--whose; uttama-adhikari--the topmost devotee; sei--he; taraye samsara--can deliver the whole world.




"One who is expert in logic, argument and the revealed scriptures and who has firm faith in Krsna is classified as a topmost devotee. He can deliver the whole world.


Yet in the Ramanada Samvasd, SCM rejects logic as external devotional service and later we read in Cc.

TEXT 153




lobhe vraja-vasira bhave kare anugati

sastra-yukti nahi mane----raganugara prakrti




lobhe--in such covetousness; vraja-vasira bhave--in the moods of the inhabitants of Vrndavana, Vraja; kare anugati--follows; sastra-yukti--injunctions or reasonings of the sastras; nahi mane--does not abide by; raganugara--of spontaneous love; prakrti--the nature.




"If one follows in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vrndavana out of such transcendental covetousness, he does not care for the injunctions or reasonings of sastra. That is the way of spontaneous love.




Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says that a devotee is attracted by the service of the inhabitants of Vrndavana-namely the cowherd men, Maharaja Nanda, mother Yasoda, Radharani, the gopis, and the cows and calves. An advanced devotee is attracted by the service rendered by an eternal servitor of the Lord. This attraction is called spontaneous attraction. Technically it is called svarupa-upalabdhi. This stage is not achieved in the beginning. In the beginning one has to render service strictly according to the regulative principles set forth by the revealed scriptures and spiritual master. By continuously rendering service through the process of vaidhi bhakti, one's natural inclination is gradually awakened. That is called spontaneous attraction, or raganuga bhakti.

An advanced devotee situated on the platform of spontaneity is already very expert in sastric instruction, logic and argument. When he comes to the point of eternal love for Krsna, no one can deviate him from that position, neither by argument nor by sastric evidence. An advanced devotee has realized his eternal relationship with the Lord, and consequently he does not accept the logic and arguments of others. Such an advanced devotee has nothing to do with the sahajiyas, who manufacture their own way and commit sins by indulging in illicit sex, intoxication and gambling, if not meat-eating. Sometimes the sahajiyas imitate advanced devotees and live in their own whimsical way, avoiding the principles set down in the revealed scriptures. Unless one follows the six Gosvamis-Sri Rupa, Sanatana, Raghunatha Bhatta, Sri Jiva, Gopala Bhatta and Raghunatha dasa-one cannot be a bona fide spontaneous lover of Krsna. In this connection, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says: rupa-raghunatha-pade haibe akuti kabe hama bujhaba se yugala piriti. The sahajiyas' understanding of the love affairs between Radha and Krsna is not bona fide because they do not follow the principles laid down by the six Gosvamis. Their illicit connection and their imitation of the dress of Rupa Gosvami as well as their avoidance of the prescribed methods of revealed scriptures will lead them to the lowest regions of hell. These imitative sahajiyas are cheated and unfortunate. They are not equal to advanced devotees (paramahamsas). Debauchees and paramahamsas are not on the same level.

Cc.Madhya lila 22.153





"When one is attracted to Krsna on the transcendental platform, there is no longer any logical logical argument on the basis of revealed scripture, nor are there considerations of such conclusions. This is His transcendental quality that is the essence of all transcendental sweetness.


Cc. 24.40

Purports by





[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-20-2001).]

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This is weird. The entire thread appears to have been truncated, starting with the Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha post.


Anyway, Puru, we're going round in circles. Accepting sabda doesn't mean that we have to reject pratyaksha and abhimana out of hand. Ultimately, we ourselves are the only measure of whether something is true or not.


If someone tells me a snake is a rope and then it bites me, I am not likely to trust that person a second time.


To elaborate on my fundamental point once again: Prabhupada supposedly "built a house in which the entire world can live."


If this is to be true, then rather than narrowing our vision, we have to expand it. This means that there has to be a place for people who believe that Prabodhananda is Prakashananda.


Scripture normally has two kinds of statement: expansive and narrow. I rather liked the example Satyaraj posted recently about the Gaudiya (!) saying that one Holy Name uttered purely will take one to Krishna, and the Vallabhi answering, one Holy Name uttered impurely will lead one to samsara. These nicely illustrate the expansive and narrow extremes.


A true world religion has to be able to incorporate both extremes. It has to be generous in spirit and yet preserve the purity of its highest ideals. You can't expect to create a homogenous human being who will fit the expected mold of a devotee according to the Iskcon 1970's model or the Gaudiya Math 1930's model.


In sociological parlance, this is called the transformation from sect to church.


This is why Prabhupada was farsighted enough to think of Varnashram Dharma.


There are basically five kinds of people in relation to the Krishna consciousness movement:


(1) Those who will never join as devotees. (the "demons")

(2) Those who will never join, but are sympathizers. (mostly Indians)

(3) Those who may join as devotees. (The "innocent")

(4) Those who have joined.

(5) Those who have joined and left.


Most devotees as preachers have traditionally concentrated on those in the third group, trying to persuade them to become full-time devotees. These are seen as a source of manpower.


A few devotees "cultivate" the sympathizers because they are an important source of revenue.


A few other devotees are concerned with the large mass of "demons" because of public relations concerns.


The fourth category, those who are in the temple, are of course subcategorized according to their status in the hierarchy as advanced or less advanced. Traditionally, in Iskcon, those in the lower echelons are treated rather poorly as free labor and are left to sink or swim as the case may be. Considering the investment in getting these people to join in the first place, the neglect afterwards is pretty foolish.


Here is the first place that dogmatism makes its appearance. With the "karmis", it is necessary to put on a liberal face; one cannot irritate the sympathizers too extravagantly or the income source will dry up; new converts are usually attracted by a vigorous approach so here absolutism is not a problem, but an asset.


However, a rigid philosophical approach often is accompanied by a rigid social approach. This alienates certain devotees who then leave.


Of those who leave, there are again several subcategories -- potential sympathizers, potential "demons" and potential rejoiners. Unfortunately, there are far fewer sympathizers than there should be, and of those who are sympathizers, far fewer are involved in actively supporting the movement than should be.


There are various further subdivisions of the person who has left the movement: those who are just too weak to handle the discipline of temple life and often harbor resentments of a personal kind against individuals they had to deal with inside the movement; others who have come to have philosophical differences. The first may be more likely to be potential rejoiners or sympathizers. The latter are more likely to become "demons." Strangely enough, these are often likely to be devotees from the higher echelons, those who have blooped after a long time in the movement rather than those who have left after a short stint.


Since I belong to the last group, I am interested in finding out if there is not an expansive approach that might accomodate them.


Your servant,


Jagadananda Das.<small><font color=#f7f7f7>





[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 07-20-2001).]

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Most of our discussion certainly appears lost. I have itin two html files . I sent it to you. Perhaps jndas can re post it if you send it to him as well.


Circles indeed.I understand your sociological analysis of the movement. I would explain things a little differently but I'm just not that interested anymore in matha structure or

what to do about temple presidents and their agendas. Srila Prabhupada wrote about that schism we discussed, "therefore I am of no faction."


I haven't joined a matha recently,though I am affiliated with some and embrace the association of the like minded sadhakas I find there. But mainly I am after sadhu-sanga and improving my own bhajan. Visits to mathas are fine for me for now, until I can reach a higher level of spiritual maturity and take up residence again.


We've all had to do some growing up since Srila Prabhupada's samadhi in l977, and we can arrange our own housing for now.

Good fences can make good neighbors. I see no need to harbor personal animosity because we have different philosophical viewpoints but why should we necessarily want to live with each other baba? I want to learn to chant suddha nama,improve my archan seva and study scrutinizingly shastra in the mood of gosvamis for the benefit of all human beings, starting with myself. You want to do research,translate and work in the academic field on levels of scholarship I can't think to approach. When it's time to offer prasadm we'll have a row over whose picture is on the altar or if we even need any altar.


There is some sense to different missions for different minded participants, no doubt.

Maybe seperate rooms in the same larger house makes more sense than being roomates. Or perhaps different residence in the same province, with an occasional hello on the road.



[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-20-2001).]

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You keep harping on the siddha pranali issue.


Here's some evidence from various acaryas' statements on the subject:


"Eligibility for Raganuga Bhakti

16 a) The siddha-deha does not just come falling out of the sky, but must be formed here and now by mental practise. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura sings:



sadhane bhavibe yaha, siddha dehe pabe taha

raga marge ei sei upaya


"Whatever you think of during your sadhana, you will attain in your siddhi-body. Those are the ways of raga marga."(Prema-bhakti-candrika, 57)



sadhane ye dhana cai, siddha dehe taha pai,

pakkapakka matra se vicara


"The treasure I covet during my sadhana I will receive in my siddha body. The only difference between the two is being ripe and unripe. (Prema-bhakti-candrika, 56)" This means that the difference between the struggling practitioner and the siddha is only in quantity and not in quality.


That the siddha-deha does not come from out of the blue, but must be formed through constant meditation is also confirmed in Bhagavad Gita, 8.6:



yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajanty ante kalevaram

tam tam evaiti kaunteya sada tad bhavabhavitah


"Whatever one contemplates throughout life is what one attains when one leaves the body."


In the Srimad Bhagavata (7.1.27) it is said:



kitah pesaskrtaruddhah kudyayam tam anusmaran

samrambhabhayayogena vindate tatsvarupatam


"The caterpillar imprisoned by a wasp in (its nest on) a wall, and constantly thinking of the latter through intense hate and fear, attains the form of the wasp."


In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.295) we find:



seva sadhakarupena siddharupena catra hi

tadbhavalipsuna karya vrajalokanusaratah


"A person who desires loving attraction to his beloved deity Sri Krsna in Vraja must serve in allegiance to the people of Vraja, both in the current practitioner's body as well as in the spiritual, mentally conceived body, which is fit for serving the beloved deity." Mental service must be rendered in the spiritual body in allegiance to Sri Radha, Lalita and Rupa Mañjari and service in the current physical body must be rendered in allegiance to Vraja-people like Sri Rupa and Sanatana, according to the commentary thereon by Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, as well as in his Raga-vartma-candrika. In the Caitanya-caritamrta, (Madhya, 22.154-155):



bahya antara ihara dui to sadhana

bahya - sadhaka dehe kore sravana kirtana

mane - nija siddha deha koriya bhavana

ratri dine kore vraje krsnera sevana


"There are two kinds of practise - external and internal. In the external practitioner's body the nine devotional practices of hearing, chanting, praising, deity worship etc. are performed and in the mentally conceived spiritual body one renders mental service to Krsna in Vraja day and night."


This siddha body should be received from the guru, according to Sri Gopalaguru Gosvami (disciple of Vakresvara Pandita, personal servant of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and first mahanta of the Gambhira Matha in Puri), Dhyanacandra Gosvami (disciple of Gopalaguru Gosvami) and Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakura (last chapter of his book Harinama-cintamani), who was the father of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Sri Jiva Gosvami says in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283) on initiation:



divyam jñanam hyatra srimati mantre bhagavatsvarupajñanam tena bhagavata sambandhavisesa-jñanam ca

"Initiation bestows on the disciple not only the mantra, that is God's very form, but also knowledge about his specific relation with Him." In the Bhakti-sandarbha (321) Sri Jiva Gosvami says:



saksadvrajajana-visesayaiva mahyam srigurucaranair madabhista-visesa-siddhyartham upadistam bhavayami


"I meditate on the specific form of one of Krsna's associates in Vraja, which my Sri Guru-carana has instructed me in, so that I can attain my specifically desired siddhi." We must assume that this means a little more than the self esteem of: "I am a 20-year old book distributor for Krsna on a parking lot," however devotional this may be.


Modern Gaudiya Math acaryas desperately try to escape from the above scriptural evidence by saying: "yes, but nowadays nobody is qualified for siddha-pranali anymore." To this can be said (1) that Bhaktivinoda wrote his Jaiva-dharma and Harinama-cintamani in the 20th century, not the 16th and (2) the Bhagavata (11.5.38) states: kalau khalu bhavisyanti narayana-parayanah, "throughout the age of Kali there will be Vaisnavas."


16 b) Raganuga bhakti is not only for perfected souls beyond the stage of anartha-nivrtti. In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.5) Rupa declares that there are two kinds of sadhana (after first explaining that sadhana-bhakti means practise with the senses, by souls that are still conditioned)- vaidhi and raganuga, and nowhere it is said that raganuga bhakti is a post graduate state of vaidhi bhakti. In the Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 22.108) Kaviraja confirms this:



ei sadhana bhakti dui to prakara

eka vaidhibhakti - raganuga bhakti ara


"There are two kinds of devotion in practise. One is called vaidhi bhakti and the other raganuga bhakti." There is no mention of the latter's being a culmination of the former. Krsnadasa also declares (C.c., Adi, 4.231-237) that, although raganuga bhakti is indeed a confidential topic, it must still be discussed, for otherwise no one would be able to enter into this knowledge. In the Srimad Bhagavata (10.33.36) we find that Krsna performed the Rasa-lila out of compassion for all conditioned souls and that anyone who hears it becomes a devotee. Sri Jiva Gosvami teaches us in his Vaisnava-tosani comment on this verse:



ataeva tadrsabhaktaprasangena tadrsih sarvacittakarsinih krida bhajate, yah sadharanir api srutva bhaktebhyo 'nyo 'pi janas tatparo bhavet. kim uta rasalilarupam imam srutvetyarthah. vaksyate ca: vikriditam vrajavadhubhir idam ca visnoh (S.B. 10.33.39) ityadi. yad va, manusam deham asritah sarvo 'pi jivas tatparo bhavet, martyaloke sribhagavadavatarat tatha bhajane mukhyatvac ca manusyanam eva sukhena tac chravanadisiddheh

"Krsna performs this all-attractive game for His devotees, but even ordinary people are attracted to this game by hearing about it. Even they thus become exclusively devoted to the Lord. There is no doubt about this, and it will be further explained in verse 10.33.39. The words manusam deham asritah also indicate that the jivas that attained a human form are able to hear of this game and thus become devotees. The Lord descends on the human planets and it is here that the worship of the Lord assumes its most important form. Hence human beings can blissfully attain perfection by hearing of this game." In the S.B. (10.33.39) one hears that the senses do not become sexually agitated by hearing or reading of the Rasa-lila, but rather that they become freed from lust:



vikriditam vraja-vadhubhir idam ca visnoh

sraddhanvito 'nusrnuyad atha varnayed yah

bhaktim param bhagavati pratilabhya kamam

hrdrogamasvapahinotyacirena dhirah


"Anyone who faithfully hears and describes the pastimes of Lord Visnu (Krsna) with the ladies of Vraja (the gopis) will attain supreme devotion to God and will soon become free from the heart's disease of lust." Sri Jiva Gosvami comments as follows on this verse:



sraddhaya visvasenanvita iti. tad viparitavajñarupaparadhanivrttyartham ca nairantaryartham ca. tacca phalavaisistyartham, ataeva yo 'nu nirantaram srnuyat. athanantaram svayam varnayec ca, upalaksanam caitat smarec ca. bhaktim premalaksanam param srigopikapremanusaritvat sarvottamajatiyam. pratiksanam nutanatvena labdhva; hrdrogarupam kamam iti bhagavadvisayah kamaviseso vyavacchinnah, tasya paramapremarupatvena tadvaiparityat. kamam ityupalaksanam anyesam api hrd-roganam. anyatra sruyate (srigita, 18.54): "brahmabhutaprasannatma na socati na kanksati, samah sarvesu bhutesu madbhaktim labhate param." ityatra tu hrdrogapahanat purvam eva paramabhaktipraptih. tasmat paramabalavad evedam sadhanam iti bhavah.

"Sraddhanvita means hearing with faith. This word is used to avoid the offence of disbelieving or disregarding the scriptures - that is contrary to the principles of hearing and chanting. The highest devotion is that of the gopis and hearing and chanting of their devotion is so powerful that this supreme devotion appears in the heart even before the heart's disease of lust is chased out of it. This despite the verse 18.54 of the Gita, which shows an opposite sequence. This shows that hearing and chanting of the Rasa-lila is the most powerful sadhana in existence." In other words, saying: "Don't read Rasa-lila unless you are free from sex desire" is like saying "Don't take the medicine unless and until you are cured." How will you get cured without taking the medicine?


Sri Prabodhananda Sarasvati says in his Vrndavana-mahimamrta (4.38):



yam yam rupavatim navinatarunim lavanyalilakala-

madhuryair munimohinim anuratam bhavotsavavyañjanim

tam tam viksya sa thutkaroti paramam divyam api sphuritam

sriradhapadakinkaripada-nakha-pranto 'pi yasyatmani


"A person in whose heart even the borders of the toenails of Sri Radha's female foot-servants have arisen will spit in disgust when he sees even the most beautiful young, elegant, playful artistic girl, whose sweetness may bewilder even great sages, and who causes a festival of loving feelings."


There is no guarantee at all that someone who practises vaidhi bhakti is automatically promoted to raganuga bhakti, rather Srila Rupa Gosvami says in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu: krsna-tadbhakta-karunya-matra-labhaika-hetuka, "only by the grace of Krsna and His devotees is this path of raganuga bhakti attained." The bhavas or feelings that come forth from the two different paths (vaidhi and raganuga) are totally different (see the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.3.7-14) and so are the kinds of prema (love) (see Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.4.5-8).


By reading the books of the Gosvamis, the seed of raganuga bhakti can be sown. If we were not allowed to read them because we are still conditioned, then they were written for nothing, for how can you become free from conditioning without having read them? This is described in Srila Rupa Gosvami's Padyavali:



krsnabhaktirasabhavita matih

kriyatam yadi kuto 'pi labhyate

tatra laulyam api mulyam ekalam

janmakotisukrtair na labhyate


"No ten million lifetimes of following regulative principles will give you taste for Krsna-bhakti. The only price is greed! Purchase it as soon as it is available anywhere!" It is on sale where the rasika bhaktas speak about Radha-Krsna. In connection with the above sloka, to use the saying "Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread" is an offense to Sri Rupa Gosvami and all his followers, calling them fools. This 'fools rush in' is a mundane saying which only applies to mundane impulsive people and their actions. Srila Visvanatha Cakravartipada teaches in his Raga-vartma-candrika (1.5): napi lobhaniyavastupraptau svasya yogyayogyatvavicarah ko 'py udbhavati, "no candidate ever considers whether he is qualified for this path of raganuga bhakti or not."


One cannot learn vaidhi bhakti from the guru and then just learn raganuga bhakti from books, because one's guru did not teach one raganuga bhakti. One should take both initiation and teachings from a raganuga guru (asambhasya tadbhavagambhiracittan kuto syamasindho rasasyavagahah says Raghunatha dasa Gosvami: "How can one enter into the Syama-ocean without having conversed with a devotee whose heart is steeped in love for Radha?")


16 c) Bhaktisiddhanta's self-styled theory 'first maranam (death of the ego) and then smaranam (remembering Krsna's pastimes)" is also contrary to the teachings of the Gosvamis. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura sings in the Prema-bhakti-candrika:



sadhana smarana lila, iha na koriho hela


"Do not neglect the sadhana (practise, not perfection) of smarana." Again the reverse order: First smarana, then marana, not 'first get cured and then take the medicine." And not just smarana, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura even goes further to specify yugalavilasasmrtisara, "the essential smarana is of the amorous pastimes of Radha and Krsna."


16 d) The idea that "Radharani's name can only be sung on Radhastami" is refuted by Srila Prabodhananda Sarasvati in the Radha-rasa-sudhanidhi (144): radhanamaiva hy anudinamilitam sadhanadhisakotih, "millions of sadhana are fulfilled by daily singing the holy name of Radha." Srila Narottama das Thakura sings: krsna-nama radha-nama upasana rasa-dhama, "singing Krsna's name and Radha's name is the most tasty spiritual practise," jaya jaya radha-nama vrndavana jara dhama krsna-sukha-vilasera nidhi, "all glories to the holy name of Radha that has its abode in Vrndavana and forms the ocean of Krsna's blissful game," and the next couplet, ihate vimukha yei, tara kabhu siddhi nei, yeno nahi suni tara nama, "anyone who is against this will never reach perfection. Let us not even hear their names."


16 e) Some say that Krsna and the gopis only kiss and caress, but do not have actual sexual intercourse. However, the Brahma-samhita says angani yasya sakalendriya-vrttimanti, Krsna performs all sensual activities. Furthermore, Srila Sanatan Goswami writes in his commentary on Srimad Bhagavata 10.14.33 and in his Brhad Bhagavatamrta-tika (2.7.99): nanu na bhavatu pumsam upasthendriyadvara tat gopinam kila saksadeva sampadyate iti cet tarhi dharstyapariharaya, "Of course, male people of Vraja do not relish Krsna's sweetness through their genitals, but the gopis certainly have direct experience of that. Brahma, however, was too shy to mention that." In the Srimad Bhagavata (10.8.31), the elderly gopis complain: evam dharstyany usati kurute mehanadini vastau, "Krsna is so impudent to pass urine in our houses." How can He urinate without genitals? Also in the Bhagavata (10.22.17) it is said: panibhyam yonim acchadya "The gopis covered their sexual organs with their hands." In the Bhagavata at 10.55.2 we find: krsnaviryasamudbhavah "Pradyumna came forth from Krsna's semen."


17) Doing bhajana is not selfish, or acting purely for one's own liberation. To understand this, one first must understand what is the self. Srimad Bhagavata (10.14.55) says: krsnam enam avehi tvam atmanam akhilatmanam, "Krsna is the Self of the selves." The whole preceding story of Krsna's calves and cowherd boyfriends being kidnapped and His expanding Himself into them, and then the mothers and the cows loving their (the Krsna-expanded) boys and calves twice as much as their own offspring, is meant to demonstrate this. In other words, bhajana is done to please Krsna, who is our highest Self, and not to reach personal salvation. The Vedanta-sutra states: anandamayo 'bhyasat, "everyone seeks happiness."


For the same reason, the aspiration to relish rasa is not a selfish one. Indeed, Srila Rupa Gosvami has stated in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu that the goal of bhakti sadhana is to relish rasa:



samagripariposena parama rasarupata (2.1.4)

vibhavair anubhavais ca sattvikair vyabhicaribhih

svadyatvam hrdi bhaktanam anita sravanadibhih

esa krsnaratih sthayi bhavo bhaktiraso bhavet (2.1.5)

praktanyadhuniki casti yasya sadbhaktivasana

esa bhaktirasasvadas tasyaiva hrdi jayate (2.1.6)


bhaktanam hrdi rajanti samskarayugalojjvala

ratiranandarupaiva niyamana tu rasyatam (2.1.9)

krsnadibhir vibhavadyair gatairanubhavadhvani

praudhanandacamatkarakastham apadyate param (2.1.10)

kimtu prema vibhavadyaih svalpair nito 'pyaniyasim

vibhavanadyavastham tu sadya asvadyatam vrajet (2.1.11)


"Along with these ingredients it becomes the form of highest rasa. This relishable rasa is brought to the hearts of the devotees by vibhavas, anubhavas, sattvikas and vyabhicari bhavas through the practises of hearing, chanting etc. Those who have had the aspiration for devotion in this life and in previous lives, will have the relish of bhakti rasa awakened within the heart. When these two samskaras or cultivations of devotion (from this life and the previous life) reside in the hearts of the devotees it will culminate in the experience of rasa in the form of rati ananda, with the help of vibhavas (incitements) such as Krsna. Then the summit of astonishment and ecstasy will be achieved. Although very small incitements will bring forth very meager relish, this relish will come to full fruition of relish through proper practise."


Preaching is not a greater service to Krsna than contemplation. The often (mis-)quoted verse ya idam paramam guhyam madbhaktesvabhidhasyati (Gita, 18.68) contains the words madbhaktesu, proving that this verse describes Krsna-katha amongst the devotees, not disturbing of the minds of the ignorant, which is condemned earlier in the Gita (3.29, tan akrtsnavido mandan krtsnavin na vicalayet), and which is also an offence to the chanting of the holy name (asraddadhane vimukhe 'pyasrnvati yas copadesah sivanamaparadhah). Furthermore, the aforementioned Gita verse (18.68) mentions the words paramam guhyam which means the greatest secret, pearls that are not to be thrown before swine. How do the conditioned souls become devotees then? The Katha Upanisad (1.2.23)provides the answer:



nayam atma pravacanena labhyo na medhaya na bahuna srutena

yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas tasyaisa atma vivrnute tanum svam


"God cannot be attained by preaching lectures, nor with the intelligence, nor by hearing a lot of scripture. He is attained only by him upon whom He confers His grace. To this person He will reveal His transcendental body."


Subsequently, those who think: "I am making devotees", or "He has made so many devotees" is bewildered by false ego. The Bhagavad Gita (3:27) says: ahankara vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate, "Those who are bewildered by false ego think: "I am doing things." The verses in sastra that glorify or encourage preaching and preachers are for those who are on that level of mentality and realisation. Unfortunately most preachers are after labha, puja and pratistha - money, worship and distinction.


18) The origin of the jiva is not the spiritual, but the material world: There is ample evidence in the Srimad Bhagavata (2.9.10):



pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoh

sattvam ca misram na ca kalavikramah

na yatra maya kim utapare harer

anuvrata yatra surasurarcitah


"In Vaikuntha there is no mode of passion, darkness or even mixed goodness, there is no power of time, and there is no maya (who can pull the devotee out of the spiritual world)."


In the Srimad Bhagavata (4.28.52) it is mentioned that the jiva was with God, but according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti in his Sarartha-darsini commentary the jiva meant there only merged with Him as Mahavisnu during the universal dissolution. Sri Jiva Gosvami declares the same in his comment on Srimad Bhagavata, verses 4.28.54 and 64:



svasthah pradhanikavesarahitah san tad vyabhicarena purvam isvarakhyahamsabahirmukhataya nastam tirohitam smrtim janasi api kim sakhayam mam ityapi smarasi catmanam avijñatasakham ityatra purvoktam sakhyanusandhanam punarapa iti. atra punahsabdena smrtisabdena tadvismrter nasadikhandanam vivaksitam kintu anadyavrtasyapi sakhyasya svabhavikatvad anaditvam ityeva krtahanyakrtabhyagamaprasangat.

"Being svasthah means 'being free from the possession of material nature" tad vyabhicarena means 'not devoted to the swan called isvara. Because of this the memory was lost - nastam. Punar apa means 'regained the consciousness of friends' as was stated in words such as janasi kim sakhayam mam (4.28.52). Here the use of the words punah and smrtih is to indicate the disappearance or destruction of forgetfulness. But that forgetfulness is certainly beginningless although the friendship, which is also covered without beginning, is natural."


In the Srimad Bhagavata (6.5.11) we find: bhuh ksetram jivasamjñam yadanadi nijabandhanam, "the earth is a field known as the jiva who has been conditioned since beginningless time," and again (11.2.37): bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatah syad isad apetasya viparyayo 'smrtih, "the apeta, or turning away from God by the jiva, is anadi, beginningless, and that also accounts for fear bhaya. Asmrti means, according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, not forgetting Krsna, but one's own spiritual nature. Viparyaya means taking something for what it isn't, like identifying oneself with the body, which one is not.


More evidence is provided by Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.4)



ekasyaiva mamamsasya jivasyaiva mahamate

bandho 'syavidyayanadir vidyaya ca tathetarah

Sri Krsna tells Uddhava: 'Although I am one, O highly intelligent one, it is in relation to the jiva alone, which is a reflection of Mine, that bondage has existed from beginningless time and it is in relation to the jiva alone that the other state (liberation) is brought about through spiritual knowledge."


In the Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.7) we find: yo 'vidyaya yuk sa tu nitya-baddho vidyamayo yah sa tu nitya-muktah. "The ignorant soul is eternally bound and the soul filled with knowledge is eternally free," and in the Vedanta-sutra (2.1.35): na karmavibhagad iti cen nanaditvat. "If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality within the world, because everyone must have had the same karma in the beginning of creation, then that is not true, for karma is beginningless." In the Mandukya Upanisad (1.9) is the statement: bhogartham srstir ity anye kridartham iti capare, devasyaisa svabhavo 'yam aptakamasya ka sprha. "Some say that He created the world for His enjoyment and others say for His play. That is simply His nature. He is, after all, Self-satisfied - which desires has He left to fulfill?" and (1.16): anadimayaya supto yada jivah prabudhyate, ajam anidram asvapnam advaitam budhyate tada - "When the living entity, who is sleeping the beginningless slumber of illusion, awakens, he realises the unborn, unsleeping, undreaming non-dual truth." [Neither of these citations are in the Mandukya Upanisad. Their source is currently unknown. - Ed.]


Sri Jiva Gosvami writes in his Paramatma-sandarbha (46):



tadevam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah saktayah. tatra tasam vargadvayam. eko vargo 'nadita eva bhagavadunmukhah anyas tvanadita eva bhagavatparanmukhah. svabhavatas tadiyajñanabhavat tadiyajñanabhavac ca.



"There are innumerable spirit souls and they are the marginal potency of God. There are two classes of them: one class is favorable to God from beginningless time, and the other class is turned away from God from beginningless time. The first class is naturally full of knowledge and the other is without knowledge."


In the Caitanya-caritamrta, (Antya, 3,72-74):



prabhu kahe sab jiva mukti yabe pabe

ei to brahmanda tabe sab sunya habe

haridasa bale 'tomara yavat martye sthiti

tavat sthavara jangama sarva jivajati


sab mukti kari tumi vaikunthe pathaibe

suksma jive punah karma udbuddha karibe

sei jiva habe iha sthavara jangama

tahate bharibe brahmanda yena purva sama


Mahaprabhu said: "If all the conditioned souls would attain liberation the world would become empty." Haridasa replied: "As long as You are in this mortal world You will liberate all the mobile and immobile creatures and send them to Vaikuntha. Then You will again engage subtle (dormant, new) living entities in further fruitive activities, and these mobile and immobile living entities will fill the world up like before"


This is in line with Visnu-dharmottara Purana (1.81.12):



ekaikasmin nare muktim kalpe kalpe gate dvija

abhavisyajjagac chunyam kalasyader abhavatah


"Because time has no beginning, the world would be empty by now if only one person per kalpa had been liberated."


Markandeya answers (1.81.13-14):



jivasyanyasya sargena nare muktim upagate

acintyasaktir bhagavan jagat purayate sada

brahmana saha mucyante brahmalokam upagatah

srjyante ca mahakalpe tadvidhas capare janah


"When someone is liberated, the Supreme Lord, who has inconceivable potency, creates another jiva and and thus always keeps the world full. Those who attain Brahmaloka become liberated along with Brahma. Then, in the next kalpa, the Lord creates similar beings."


Sri Jiva says in the Priti-sandarbha (1):



atha jivas ca tadiyo 'pi tajjñana-samsargabhava-yuktatvena tanmayaparabhutah san natmasvarupajñanalopan mayakalpitopadhyavesac canadisamsaraduhkena sambadhyate iti paramatmasandarbhadav eva nirupitam asti. paramatmavaibhavaganane ca tattatasthasaktirupanam cidekarasanam apy anadiparatattvajñanasamsargabhavamayatadvaimukhyalabdhacchidraya tanmayayavrtasvasvarupajñananam tayaiva sattvarajastamomaye jade pradhane racitatmabhavanam jivanam samsaraduhkam ca jñapitam.



"Although the jiva is part of the Lord, he is without knowledge of Him and this deficiency has no beginning. Because of this he is covered by maya. Thus he is united with the beginningless material miseries because his knowledge of his svarupa is covered and he is absorbed in false designations. From beginningless time he is bereft of knowledge of the Supreme truth and thus he has attained the fault of aversion towards God, whose maya covers over his knowledge of his constitutional position and fills him with feelings created by maya, consisting of sattva, rajas, and tamas. This was explained in the Paramatma-sandarbha (47): tatparanmukhatva-dosena labdha-chidraya mayaya paribhutah, where labdha, the attainment, must be considered without time sequence, anadi as stated above.


In the Bhakti-sandarbha (120) Jiva quotes from the Vasanabhasya:



mukta api prapadyante punah samsaravasanam

yady acintyamahasaktau bhagavaty aparadhinah


"Offenders to the Lord will again get material desires, even if they are liberated souls."


Here the word punah means 'again', which proves that this verse does not apply to eternally liberated souls who fall from the spiritual world. The aparadhis (offenders) mentioned here are the mayavadis that are described in Srimad Bhagavata (10.2.32): aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrtayusmadanghrayah. But this does not count for the bhaktas, as is described in the next verse (10.2.33): tatha na te madhava tavakah kvacid, bhrasyanti margat tvayi baddha-sauhrdah. Srila Jiva Gosvami comments (Bhakti-sandarbha, 120): yatha purve arudhaparamapadatvavasthato 'pi bhrasyanti, tatha tavaka margat sadhanavasthato 'pi na bhrasyanti, kimuta mrgyat tvatta ityarthah. Mayavadis fall down even from the stage of perfection, but even in the stage of sadhana Your devotees do not fall down, what to speak of after attaining You?"


According to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata (3.7.10): tatra bhagavatah prsthasthitaya anadyavidyaya tamahsvarupaya anadivaimukhyarupabhagavatprstha-sthanam jivanam jñanam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvam karanam napi prayojanam kim apy asti. "Ignorance, which is beginningless, is situated on the Lord's back. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the Lord's back and are non-devotees. Their non-devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered."


Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata (10.87.32) also shows no jivas that have fallen from the spiritual world:



te ca meghopamaya avidyaya avrta baddhajiva eke anye bhaktimajjñanena tadavaranonmukta muktajivah anye kevalaya pradhanibhutaya va bhaktya tadavaranonmocitaprapitacidanandamayabhajanopayogisarirah siddhabhakta anye avidyayogarahita eva nityaparsada iti caturvidhah



"There are four types of jivas: 1. baddha - those under the influence of the avidya potency. 2. mukta - those liberated from the covering of avidya through bhakti, but who have not yet attained a spiritual body. These are also called jivanmuktas or liberated while living in the material body. 3. siddha - those who have attained a siddha-deha on the strength of bhakti. These are called baddha-muktas or those liberated after being in bondage. 4. nitya-parsadas - those eternally free from contact with ignorance. They never become conditioned, and are also called nitya-siddhas or nitya-muktas."


In his comment on Bhagavad-gita (13.20) Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti declares that the conditioning of the conditioned souls is beginningless: mayajivayor api macchaktitvena anaditvat tayoh samsleso 'py anadir iti bhavah. "Illusion and the conditioned souls are both My energies. They are both beginningless and they have been interconnected since beginningless time as well." The word dvesa in Bhagavad-gita (7.27) does not mean envy of Krsna, for you cannot be envious of someone you don't know.


In the Brhad-bhagavatamrta Sarupa calls himself a newcomer, nutna (2.6.359): dure 'stu tavad varteyam tatra nityanivasinam, na tisthed anusandhanam nutnanam madrsam api, and later (2.6.366): tallokasya svabhavo 'yam krsnasangam vinapi yat, bhavet tatraiva tisthasa na cikirsa ca kasyacit. "Nobody desires to leave Goloka."


Assuming that previously fallen jivas who return to the spiritual world are superior to those who have stayed, because they are shocked by their experience, is not just a speculation, but also an offence to the nitya-muktas. This presupposes that it is better to fall down than to stay and that the 'returners' can anyway remember their ordeal in the material world when they return. That would make devotion out of fear of punishment greater than spontaneous loving devotion, and would make the spiritual world into a concentration-camp. Regarding free will, this is gradually given up in the course of surrender. A siddha-bhakta will never misuse this free will because his surrender is irreversible. When the sadhana-siddha jiva attains the spiritual world he remembers nothing of the material world, for his subtle body has been dissolved through the transcendental process of bhakti.


Regarding the fall of Jaya and Vijaya: The feeling of enmity they acquired for the Lord was not because of the Kumaras' curse, but by the will of the Lord. Even so, the Lord did not consider them His enemies. He just wanted to enjoy fighting with them. One should not think that Jaya and Vijaya chose to become the Lord's enemies so that they could finish the curse quickly, because great devotees like them do not desire even salokya mukti without bhakti. And with bhakti they are willing even to go to hell (Bhag. 3.15.48: natyantikam viganayanty ...) They wanted to please the Lord by fighting with Him, but they did not literally choose to become the Lord's enemies so that they could give pleasure to Him. Such a desire is undevotional. Srila Jiva Gosvami further says that their inimical feelings were not real but feigned (abhasa). They entered into demoniac bodies but remained untouched within.


As far as Citraketu is concerned, although he offended mother Parvati, he did not fall into material life. Even in a demon's body, as Vrtrasura, he recited wonderful prayers to the Lord.


In conclusion: there is no scriptural evidence for the jivas' falling from the spiritual sky. It is not supported by the acaryas, not by our acaryas, nor by those of any other sampradaya. The spiritual world would not be Vaikuntha, the fearless abode, nor would it be free from maya.


19) Loud japa is not better than mental japa. In the Haribhakti-vilasa the Narasimha Purana and Yajñavalkya are cited (17.155-159):



trividho japayajñah syat tasya bhedan nibodhata

vacikasca upamsusca manasasca tridha matah


mantram uccarayed vyaktam japayajñah sa vacikah


kiñcicchabdam svayam vidyad upamsuh sa japah smrtah


upamsuyuktasya tasmacchataguno bhavet

sahasro manasah prokto yasmad dhyanasamo hi sah


"There are three kinds of japa - vocal, muttering and mental. Loud chanting of the mantra is called vocal japa, whispering is called upamsu and mental chanting is called manasika japa. Whispering is a hundred times better than loud japa and mental chanting is a thousand times better. This is equal to meditation."


20) There is no santa-rasa in Vraja; the animals and non-moving species are not in santa rasa. Mahaprabhu proclaims in Caitanya-caritamrta that He makes the three worlds dance in four rasas (cari bhava bhakti diya nacaimu bhuvana), not in five. Hantayam adrir abala haridasa varyah (Bhag. 10.21.18) confirms that mountains like Giriraja are in dasya-rasa. The cows in Vraja are in vatsalya-rasa (see the Bhagavata Canto 10, Chapter 13). The statement vamsi priyasakhi from the Brahma-samhita prove that even the flute is in madhura-rasa.


21) Regular devotees are not addressed with prabhu. eka mahaprabhu, ara prabhu dui jana (C.C.): "There is only one Mahaprabhu and there are two prabhus (Nitai and Advaita)." Of course, great acaryas or eternal associates of the Lord are sometimes called prabhu, but this title has never been used for ordinary devotees."


So, you say you are following your acaryas, but from the above excerpt we can see that at the same time you are rejecting many of them. I do not think you can have it both ways, can you?



[This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-20-2001).]

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Why would the founders of Gaudiya Math and ISKCON be promoting bhajana, yet at the same time going against the previous acaryas w/regard to the raganuga practices already put in place. It is quite possible that they were brilliant masters of reverse psychology. As you are all probably aware, the principle is a simple one: When you tell a child not to do something, chances are she/he is going to go ahead and do it (psychologists call this a testing of the boundaries to see how far they can go before there are consequences). So, by discouraging those practices, they were hoping to get the opposite effect (just as in the case of so many of their disciples who could not refrain from various prohibited activities like taking intoxicants and having illicit sex). ACBS Prabhupada used to say that the more intelligent the child, the bigger the rascal. Based on that statement, it would appear he was subtly screening for the most qualified to go and take up the raga marga (Rupanuga) path. It could also be that those who were most likely to deviate from all of the instructions would then benefit from such powerful sadhana and be lifted out of the triguna bondage.


Any thoughts on this matter?


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Ananga you have posted an impressive list of references,but out of context and clearly not with a deep perception of why a conditioned soul should approach the topic of raganuga bhakti under sufficient guidance. You may read about the siddha deha but actual realization of our eternal form, as you wrote, must come from the mercy of sad guru.

Only when our heart is softenend by vaidhi bhakti practices can suddha-sattva-visesatma manifest there.The bhava state of rati is not imitated or just heard of , but must be actually realized, or we just observe rati abhasa. Sri Rupa very clearly says in the Bhakti-rsamrta-sindhu that there are stages leading to prema.


verses 15 & 16 from the

Eastern Division: Fourth Wave


of Srila Rupa Goswami's Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu.


adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya

tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah

athasaktis tato bhavass tatah premabhyudancati


You can't skip over those stages and present instructions for uttama bhaktas as viable devotional practices for bhadda jivas like me who are still trying to approach kanistha adhikari.Of course if you are that advanced then more power to you. Pranams to your lotus feet.


Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu:


"Raganuga bhakti is performed in two ways: (1)with the sadhaka-rupa-with the external body through execution of the angas of bhakti, and (2)with the siddha-rupa--with the internally conceived body that is suitable for carrying out the perfected service (prema-seva) for which one aspires. . .If someone raises the objection that the word 'vraja-loka' refers only to Sri Radha, Lalita, and others, then with the sadhaka-deha (the external body) one should perform bodily services following in their wake. If this indeed were the case, then the followers of those eternal associates would not find it necessary to carry out the angas of bhakti such as taking shelter of a spiritual mater (sri guru padasraya), observance of Ekadasi, worship of salagrama, worship of tulasi and so one, since it is not mentioned anywhere that Sri Radha and Lalita ever performed such acticities. HOWEVER THIS ERONIOUS CONCLUSION (APASIDDHANTA HELD BY SKEPTICS WHO HAVE TAKEN SHELTER OF MODERN ADVERSE OPINIONS IS ALSO RESFFUTED BY THE WORD VRAJA-LOKA.


In his commentary to this sloka of Sri Bhati-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.295) Srila Jiva Gosvamipada has explained the same thing;namely, that the word vraja loke refers to the dearmost associates of Sri Krsna and their followers wuch as Rupa Gosvami and others. Therefore one should perform internal service (manasi seva) through the medium of the siddha-deha by folling in accordance with Sri Rupa Manjar and other Vrajavasis. With the sadhaka-deha, one should perform bodily service by following Sri Rupa Gosvami and others."


In his commentary SRila B.V. Narayana Maharaj explains:


Thererfore, raganuga-sadhakas, should taste krsna-lila though the medium of gaura lila.

Consequently it is essential for sadhakas to remember gaura-lila and to folow the eternal associates of Lord Caitanya. Since it is necessary to follow the guara parikaras, it is certainly imperative that one observe the angas of bhakti which were praacticed by the foremost associates, such as Srila Rupa Gosvami and other. There is no doubt about this.. . .This subject is extremely deep. Wihtout the mercy of Sri Gurudeva or suddha-rasika-bhaktas, the sadhaka cannot conceive of his siddha deha(perfected spiritual body) by himself. Therefore, the contemplation of one's nitya-siddha deha arised of its own accord only by the merciful indication of Sri Gurudeva. . . .But one should always bear in mind that not everyone has the eligibility to perform Yugala-seva by meditating in this way on Their supramundane (aprakrta) daily pastimes. This practice must be concealed very dilligently. One should not disclose these pastimes to ineligible persons. Until genuine greed (lobha) to enter into the raga-marga arises in the heart of the jiva bound by matter, this subject should be kept hidden from him. ONE REMAINS INELIGIBLE TO HEAR THE CONDIENTIAL PASTIMES OF SRI UGALA WHICH ARE SATURATED WITH RASA AS LONG AS THE CONCEPTION OF THE TRANSCENDENTAL NATURE OF THE LORD'S NAME, FORM, QUALITIES AND PASTIMES HAS NOT IMPLANTED INTSELF IN THE HEART. IN OTHER WORDS, ONE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THE NAME, FORM, QUALITITES AND PASTIMES OF SRI KRSNA ARE FULLY CONSITITUTED OR PURE SPITITUAL TRANSCENDENCE (SUDDHA-CINMAYA-SVARUPA). WHEN INELIGIBLE PERONS HEAR OR STUDY THESE PASTIMES THE RECALL ONLY THE ILLUSORY AND MUNDANE ASSOCIATION OF MEN AND WOMEN AND ARE THUS COMPELLED TO FALL DOWN. THUS THEY SINK DOWN INTO THE MUCK OF DEBAUCHERY.Therefore judicious students, proceeding cautiously may enter into this lila, after having obtained the appropriate impressions (samskaras) for aparakrta-srngara-rasa, following the exmaple of Devarsi Narada.







Interspersed with your quotes and strange logic about the Gaudiya Matha we can readily see that you think discussion about Sri Krsna's private parts is suitable subject matter for public discussions. He is also the seed giving father and He impregnates the womb of material energy with all the jiva souls. Your remarks simply prove that "WHEN INELIGIBLE PERONS HEAR OR STUDY THESE PASTIMES THEY RECALL ONLY THE ILLUSORY AND MUNDANE ASSOCIATION OF MEN AND WOMEN"


By discussing such topics without anugatya and you will simply misunderstand Krsna's lila, which has nothing to do with mundane sexuality of any kind. That is why SBSST and our gaudiya line takes objection to premature discussions of such intimate subject matter by the unqualified.


Also the gita sloka (8.6) you mention doesn't necessarily refer to raganuga sadhana. The gita explains abc, of transmigration of the soul according to the impressions we accumulate in this life taking us from one material body to the next. The Aprakrta lila has nothing to do with our sense perceptions but is the function of hladini, sandhini and samvit. Take the verse that way if you see fit, but you should walk before you run. Until you are free from mundane ahankara how can you have any real appreciation or realization of your siddha?


Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaj explained in a discusion of the eternal nature of our svarupa that:


". . .when he becomes inclined toward Paramesvara, the curtain of the covering potency,maya, is withdrawn and thus the jivas's pure svarupa and qualities are uncovered. Immediately thereafter he has the direct perception of his own svarupa. From this siddhanta it is evident that the jiva is an infinitessimal atomic particle of soncsiusness. He has an inherent spiritual identity, cinmaya svarupa. His pure ahankara, pure consciousness, pure form and method of service and so on are also definitey in this svarupa.As the sadhaka jiva goes on hearing and chanting, pure bhakti appers in his heart, and the function of the essence of hladinii and samvit, khown as bhakti devi, removes all other desires and aspirations except for the service of bhagavan. Having dispelled avidya (ignorance), the jivas' gross and subtle coverings are both destroyed by the vidyavrtti function of the knowledge potency. At once the jiva's constitutional pure, transcendental body, is caused to manifest. Moreover, for those who are eligible to taste madhura-rasa, their purely spiritual gopi body is also caused to manifest."


Pure bhakti manifests in the softenend heart first, then siddha realization, otherwise not Ananga. Dispell avidya first or you will simply think you are a gopi artificially and become a worm in stool instead. Srila Sridhar Maharaj's essay is certainly not injudicious or contradictory, only truthful.


Sounds to me that you like to take shastra and mix it up like fruit salad, but don't present a cohesive or comprehensive understanding of how to approach the topic of raganuga bhakti. We are not gopis quite yet.

Our vastu siddhi won't manifest in this body anyway. And we won't take birth where Krsna's lila is manifesting unless we are actually qualified to go there. Otherwise there is another material womb waiting for us somewhere.


(Vastu-siddhi is attained after giving up this body and taking birth in Krsna's bhaumalila, from the womb of a gopi. After attaining the association of Krsna's eternal associates and being purified of all final traces of material identification, when prema is intensified, one attains vasu-siddhi).

BRSB p. 125



[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-21-2001).]


[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-21-2001).]

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Here are some excerpts, Ananga, from The Teachings of Lord Caitanya:




" In order to learn how Krsna's pleasure can be obtained, we must read the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam in which Krsna's pleasure potency is displayed in His pastimes with Radharani and the damsels of Vraja. Unfortunately, unintelligent people turn at once to the sports of Krsna in the Dasama-skandha, the Tenth Canto. Krsna's embracing Radharani or His dancing with the cowherd girls in the rasa dance are generally not understood by ordinary men because they consider these pastimes in the light of mundane lust. They incorrectly think that Krsna is like themselves and that He embraces the gopis just as an ordinary man embraces a young girl. Some people thus become interested in Krsna because they think that His religion allows indulgence in sex. This is not Krsna-bhakti, love of Krsna, but prakrta-sahajiya-- materialistic lust.

In order to avoid such errors, we should understand what Radha-Krsna actually is. Radha and Krsna display their pastimes through Krsna's internal energy. The pleasure potency of Krsna's internal energy is a most difficult subject matter, and unless one understands what Krsna is, he cannot understand it. Krsna does not take any pleasure in this material world, but He has a pleasure potency. Because we are part and parcel of Krsna, the pleasure potency is within us also, but we are trying to exhibit that pleasure potency in matter. Krsna, however, does not make such a vain attempt. The object of Krsna's pleasure potency is Radharani, and He exhibits His potency or His energy as Radharani and then engages in loving affairs with Her. In other words, Krsna does not take pleasure in this external energy but exhibits His internal energy, His pleasure potency, as Radharani. Thus Krsna manifests Himself as Radharani in order to exhibit His internal pleasure potency. Of the many extensions, expansions and incarnations of the Lord, this pleasure potency is the foremost and chief."



". . .In this material world sex is required to produce children, but in the spiritual world one can produce as many children as he likes without having to take help from his wife. Because we have no experience with spiritual energy, we think that Brahma's birth from the navel of Visnu is simply a fictional story. We are not aware that spiritual energy is so powerful that it can do anything and everything. Material energy is dependent on certain laws, but spiritual energy is fully independent


. . . Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura specifically deals with original and pure sex psychology (adi-rasa) devoid of all mundane inebriety. The entire material world turns due to the basic principle of sex life. In modern human civilization, sex is the central point of all activities; indeed, wherever we turn our face we see sex life prominent. Consequently sex life is not unreal; its true reality is experienced in the spiritual world. Material sex is but a perverted reflection of the original; the original is found in the Absolute Truth. This validates the fact that the Absolute Truth is personal, for the Absolute Truth cannot be impersonal and have a sense of pure sex life. The impersonal monist philosophy gives an indirect impetus to abominable mundane sex because it overly stresses the impersonality of the ultimate truth. The result is that men who lack knowledge have accepted the perverted material sex life as all in all because they have no information of the actual spiritual form of sex. There is a distinction between sex in the diseased condition of material life and sex in the spiritual existence. Srimad-Bhagavatam gradually elevates the unbiased reader to the highest perfectional stage of transcendence above the three modes of material activities, fruitive actions, speculative philosophy and above worship of functional deities indicated in the Vedas. Srimad-Bhagavatam is the embodiment of devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna and is therefore situated in a position superior to other Vedic literatures.


. . .Sometimes people indulge in hearing portions of Srimad-Bhagavatam which they are not prepared to hear. Professional readers of the Bhagavatam indulge in reading the confidential portions dealing with the pastimes of the Supreme Lord. These portions appear to read like sex literature. However, Srimad-Bhagavatam is meant to be heard from the beginning, and those who are fit to assimilate the messages of Bhagavatam are mentioned in the very beginning (Bhag. 1.1.2): A bona fide audience fit to hear Srimad-Bhagavatam is generated after many pious deeds. An intellectual person can believe in the assurances of the great sage Vyasadeva and patiently hear the messages of Srimad-Bhagavatam in order to realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead directly. One need not struggle through the different Vedic stages of realization, for one can be lifted to the position of paramahamsa simply by agreeing to hear the message of Srimad-Bhagavatam with patience. The sages of Naimisaranya told Suta Gosvami that they were intensely desirous of understanding Srimad-Bhagavatam. They were hearing from Suta Gosvami about Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they were never satiated by these discussions. People who are really attached to Krsna never want to stop hearing about Him.


. . . The word klim added to the gayatri mantra is explained in Brahma-samhita as the transcendental seed of love of Godhead, or the seed of the kama-gayatri. The object is Krsna, who is the ever green Cupid, and by utterance of klim mantra Krsna is worshiped. It is also stated in the Gopala-tapani Upanisad that when Krsna is spoken of as Cupid, one should not think of Him as the Cupid of this material world. As already explained, Vrndavana is the spiritual abode of Krsna, and the word Cupid is also spiritual and transcendental. One should not take the material Cupid and Krsna to be on the same level. The material Cupid represents the attraction of the external flesh and body, but the spiritual Cupid is the attraction by which the Supersoul attracts the individual soul. Actually lust and sex are there in spiritual life, but when the spirit soul is embodied in material elements, that spiritual urge is expressed through the material body and is therefore pervertedly reflected. When one actually becomes conversant in the science of Krsna consciousness, he can understand that his material desire for sex is abominable, whereas spiritual sex is desirable.

Spiritual sex is of two kinds: one in accordance with the constitutional position of the self and the other in accordance with the object. When one understands the truth about this life but is not completely cleansed of material contamination, he is not factually situated in the transcendental abode, Vrndavana, although he may understand spiritual life. When, however, one becomes free from the sex urges of the material body, he can actually attain the supreme abode of Vrndavana. When one is so situated, he can utter the kama-gayatri and kama-bija mantra.


. . . In Govinda-lilamrta there is a verse which states: "Who is the breeding ground for Krsna's affection? The answer is that it is only Srimati Radhika. Who is Krsna's most lovable object? The answer is that it is only Srimati Radhika and no one else." Sheen in the hair, moisture in the eyes and firmness in the breasts are all qualities present in Srimati Radhika. Only Srimati Radhika is able to fulfill all the desires of Krsna. No one else can do so.

Satyabhama is another competitor of Srimati Radharani, but she always desires to come to the standard of Srimati Radharani. Radharani is so expert in all affairs that all the damsels of Vraja come to learn arts from Her. She is so extraordinarily beautiful that even the goddess of fortune and Parvati, the wife of Lord Siva, desire elevation to Her standard of beauty. Arundhati, who is known as the most chaste lady in the universe, desires to learn the standard of chastity from Srimati Radharani. Since even Lord Krsna cannot estimate Radharani's highly transcendental qualities, it is not possible for an ordinary man to estimate them.

After hearing Ramananda Raya speak of the qualities of Radha Krsna, Lord Caitanya desired to hear from him about the reciprocation of love between Them. Ramananda Raya described Krsna as dhira-lalita, a word which describes a person who is very cunning and youthful, who is always expert in joking, who is without anxiety and who is always subservient to his girl friend. Krsna is always engaged in love affairs with Radharani, and He takes to the bushes of Vrndavana to enjoy His lusty activities with Her. Thus He successfully carries out His lusty instincts. In Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu it is stated:. "By His impudent and daring talks about sex indulgence, Krsna obliged Srimati Radharani to close Her eyes, and taking advantage of this, Krsna painted many pictures on Her breasts. These pictures served as subject matter for Radharani's friends to joke about. Thus Krsna was always engaged in lusty activities, and thus He made His youthful life successful."

Upon hearing of these transcendental activities, Lord Caitanya said, "My dear Ramananda, what you have explained regarding the transcendental pastimes of Sri Radha and Krsna is perfectly correct, yet there is something more I would like to hear from you."


. . . Ramananda Raya then began to relate the confidential and transcendental activities of Radha and Krsna. These activities cannot be understood in the emotional relationship with the Supreme Lord as master and servant, friend and friend or parent and son. This confidential subject matter can be understood only in the association of the damsels of Vraja, for the confidential activities have arisen from the feelings and emotions of those damsels. Without the association of the damsels of Vraja, one cannot nourish or cherish such transcendental understanding. In other words, these confidential pastimes of Radha and Krsna have expanded through the mercy of the damsels. Without their mercy, they cannot be understood. One has to follow in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja in order to understand.

When one is actually situated in that understanding, he becomes eligible to enter into the confidential pastimes of Radha and Krsna. There is no alternative to understand Their confidential pastimes. This is confirmed in Govinda-lilamrta (10.17): "Although manifest, happy, expanded and unlimited, the emotional exchanges between Radha and Krsna can only be understood by the damsels of Vraja or by their followers."Just as no one can understand the expansion of the spiritual energy of the Supreme Lord without His causeless mercy, no one can understand the transcendental sex life between Radha and Krsna without following in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja. The personal associates of Radharani are called sakhis, and Her near assistants are called manjaris. It is very difficult to express their dealings with Krsna because they have no desire to mix with Krsna or to enjoy Him personally. Rather, they are always ready to help Radharani associate with Krsna. Their affection for Krsna and Radharani is so pure that they are simply satisfied when Radha and Krsna are together. Indeed, their transcendental pleasure is in seeing Radha and Krsna united. The actual form of Radharani is just like a creeper embracing the tree of Krsna, and the damsels of Vraja, the associates of Radharani, are just like the leaves and flowers of that creeper. When a creeper embraces a tree, the leaves and flowers as well as the creeper automatically embrace it. Govinda-lilamrta (10.16) confirms that Radharani is the expansion of the pleasure potency of Krsna and is compared with a creeper, and Her associates, the damsels of Vraja, are compared to the flowers and leaves of that creeper. When Radharani and Krsna enjoy Themselves, the damsels of Vraja relish the pleasure more than Radharani Herself.


. . . "And out of all songs, what song do you think is the best of all?" Caitanya Mahaprabhu asked. And Ramananda replied that any song which describes the pastimes of Radha and Krsna is the best song. In conditional life, the soul is captivated by sex. All fictions--dramas and novels--and material songs describe love between men and women. Since people are so attracted to this kind of literature, Krsna appeared in this material world and displayed His transcendental loving affairs with the gopis. There is an immense literature dealing with the transactions between the gopis and Krsna, and anyone who takes shelter of this literature or of the stories about Radha and Krsna can enjoy actual happiness. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.33.36) it is said that the Lord displayed His pastimes in Vrndavana in order to reveal His actual life. Any intelligent person who tries to understand the pastimes of Radha and Krsna is most fortunate. The songs that tell of those pastimes are the greatest songs in the world.








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A fe excerpts from Krsna Book:


Upon hearing the anxious plea of the gopis, the Supreme Personality of Godhead began to smile, and being very kind to the gopis, the Lord although self-sufficient, began to embrace them and kiss them as they desired. When Krsna, smiling, looked at the faces of the gopis, the beauty of their faces became a hundred times enhanced. When He was enjoying them in their midst, He appeared just like the full moon surrounded by millions of shining stars. Thus the Supreme Personality of Godhead, surrounded by hundreds of gopis and decorated with a flower garland of many colors, began to wander within the Vrndavana forest, sometimes singing to Himself and sometimes singing with the gopis. In this way, both the Lord and the gopis reached the cool sandy bank of the Yamuna where there were lilies and lotus flowers. In such a transcendental atmosphere, both the gopis and Krsna began to enjoy one another. While they were walking on the bank of the Yamuna, Krsna would sometimes put His arms around a gopi's head, breast or waist. Pinching one another and joking and looking at one another, they enjoyed. When Krsna touched the bodies of the gopis, their lust to embrace Him increased. They all enjoyed these pastimes. Thus the gopis were blessed with all mercy by the Supreme Personality of Godhead for they enjoyed His company without a tinge of mundane sex life.

. . .Sex desire is especially excited in the autumn season, but the wonderful thing about Krsna's association with the gopis is that there was no question of sex desire. It was, as clearly stated in the Bhagavata description by Sukadeva Gosvami, avaruddha-saurata, namely the sex impulse was completely controlled. There is a distinction between Lord Krsna's dancing with the gopis and the ordinary dancing of living entities within the material world. In order to clear up further misconceptions about the rasa dance and the affairs of Krsna and the gopis, Maharaja Pariksit, the hearer of Srimad-Bhagavatam, told Sukadeva Gosvami, "Krsna appeared on the earth to establish the regulative principles of religion and to curb the predominance of irreligion. But the behavior of Krsna and the gopis might encourage irreligious principles in the material world. I am simply surprised that He would act in such a way, enjoying the company of others' wives in the dead of night." This statement of Maharaja Pariksit's was very much appreciated by Sukadeva Gosvami. The answer anticipates the abominable acts of the Mayavadi impersonalists who place themselves in the position of Krsna and enjoy the company of young girls and women.

. . . All the princesses who were wives of Krsna were exquisitely beautiful, and each one of them was attracted by Krsna's eyes, which were just like lotus petals, and by His beautiful face, long arms, broad ears, pleasing smile, humorous talk and sweet words. Influenced by these features of Krsna, they all used to dress themselves very attractively, desiring to attract Krsna by their feminine bodily appeal. They used to exhibit their feminine characteristics by smiling and moving their eyebrows, thus throwing sharp arrows of conjugal love just to awaken Krsna's lusty desires for them. Still, they could not arouse the mind of Krsna or His sex appetite. This means that Krsna never had any sexual relations with any of His many wives, save and except to beget children.

The queens of Dvaraka were so fortunate that they got Lord Sri Krsna as their husband and personal companion, although He is not approachable by exalted demigods like Brahma. They remained together as husband and wife, and Krsna, as an ideal husband, treated them in such a way that at every moment there was an increase of transcendental bliss in their smiling exchanges, talking and mixing together. Each and every wife had hundreds and thousands of maidservants, yet when Krsna entered the palaces of His thousands of wives, each one of them used to receive Krsna personally by seating Him in a nice chair, worshiping Him with all requisite paraphernalia, personally washing His lotus feet, offering Him betel nuts, massaging His legs to relieve them from fatigue, fanning Him to make Him comfortable, offering all kinds of scented sandalwood pulp, oils and aromatics, putting flower garlands on His neck, dressing His hair, getting Him to lie down on the bed and assisting Him in taking His bath. Thus they served always in every respect, especially when Krsna was eating. They were always engaged in the service of the Lord.

Of the 16,108 queens of Krsna, each of whom had ten sons, there is the following list of the sons of the first eight queens. By Rukmini, Krsna had ten sons: Pradyumna, Carudesna, Sudesna, Carudeha, Sucaru, Carugupta, Bhadracaru, Carucandra, Vicaru and Caru. None of them was inferior in their qualities to their divine father, Lord Krsna. Similarly, Satyabhama had ten sons, and their names are as follows: Bhanu, Subhanu, Svarbhanu, Prabhanu, Bhanuman, Candrabhanu, Brhadbhanu, Atibhanu, Sribhanu and Pratibhanu. The next queen Jambavati had ten sons headed by Samba. Their names are as follows: Samba, Sumitra, Purujit, Satajit, Sahasrajit, Vijaya, Citraketu, Vasuman, Dravida and Kratu. Lord Krsna was specifically very affectionate to the sons of Jambavati. By His wife Satya, the daughter of King Nagnajit, Lord Krsna had ten sons. They are as follows: Vira, Candra, Asvasena, Citragu, Vegavan, Vrsa, Ama, Sanku, Vasu and Kunti. Amongst all of them, Kunti was very powerful. Krsna had ten sons by Kalindi, and they are as follows: Sruta, Kavi, Vrsa, Vira, Subahu, Bhadra, Santi, Darsa, Purnamasa and the youngest, Somaka. For His next wife, Laksmana, the daughter of the king of Madras province, He begot ten sons of the names: Praghosa, Gatravan, Simha, Bala, Prabala, Urdhvaga, Mahasakti, Saha, Oja and Aparajita. Similarly, His next wife, Mitravinda, had ten sons. They are as follows: Vrka, Harsa, Anila, Grdhra, Vardhana, Unnada, Mahamsa, Pavana, Vahni and Ksudhi. His next wife, Bhadra, had ten sons, of the names: Sangramajit, Brhatsena, Sura, Praharana, Arijit, Jaya, Subhadra, Vama, Ayur and Satyaka. Besides these eight chief queens, Krsna had 16,100 other wives, and all of them had ten sons each.


Sri Narada Muni is naisthika-brahmacari. There are four types of brahmacari, and the first is called savitra, which refers to a brahmacari who, after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony, must observe at least three days celibacy. The next is called prajapatya, which refers to a brahmacari who strictly observes celibacy for at least one year after initiation. The next is called brahma-brahmacari, which refers to a brahmacari who observes celibacy from the time of initiation up to the time of completion of his study of Vedic literature. The next stage is called naisthika, which refers to a brahmacari who is celibate throughout his whole life. Out of these, the first three are upakurvana, which means that the brahmacari can marry later on after the brahmacari period is over. The naisthika-brahmacari, however, is completely reluctant to have any sex life; therefore the Kumaras and Narada are known as naisthika-brahmacaris. The brahmacari system of life is especially advantageous in that it increases the power of memory and determination. It is specifically mentioned in this connection that because Narada was naisthika-brahmacari he could remember whatever he heard from his spiritual master and would never forget it. One who can remember everything perpetually is called sruta-dhara. A sruta-dhara brahmacari can repeat all that he has heard verbatim without notes and without reference to books. The great sage Narada has this qualification, and therefore, taking instruction from Narayana Rsi, he is engaged in propagating the philosophy of devotional service all over the world. Because such great sages can remember everything, they are very thoughtful, self-realized and completely fixed in the service of the Lord. Thus the great sage Narada, after hearing from his spiritual master Narayana Rsi, became completely realized. He became established in the truth, and he became so happy that he offered the following prayers to Narayana Rsi.




kRSNA Book

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I think I have to agree with Jagat, based upon your above post: that I would not want to be on trial where you are the judge. As was mentioned several times on the VNN forums on this and similar topics, the ‘babaji camp’ as you refer to them (I am not sure if that is a respectful or derogatory term at this point) have never advocated replacing nama bhajana w/astakaliya lila smaranam, and certainly never practicing the former exclusively of the latter. So, your apparent ‘counter –arguments’ (as you see them) are really only shedding some light on malpractice of sadhana vis a vis proper practice of sadhana under the guidance of the qualified guru (also something that your opposition concurs on). So, it would seem that you at this point are just dodging the bullet in this case rather than confronting the issue that I raised earlier, which is where your position deviates from that of the previous acaryas.



[This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-21-2001).]

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Also, Puru, it appears that within your own 'camp' you have divisiveness. You are only putting forth the 'right wing' or 'party line' point of view. It is a well known fact that many of the members of both Gaudiya Math and ISKCON have practiced raganuga sadhana for several decades, and I am not referring to that infamous 'gopi bhava' club concocted by a group in Los Angeles years ago.


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No need to dodge a blank bullet. We know that His Divine Grace was on the highest platform of raganuga bhakti. We are confident that Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj was also. As far as the rest of us perhaps we should study the Cc. more srutinizingly and continue to practice sadhana keeping rati as our goal in this life.


Here is more party line:


"On the path of bhakti, no harm is done by non-performance of the assortment of activities appropriate for varnashrama or by diminution of certain angas of bhakti. That is fine.BUT THERE IS CERTAINLY GREAT HARM IF THERE IS DIMINUTION OF ANY OF THEPRINCIPLE ANGAS OF BHAKTI SUCH AS TAKING SHELTER OF A BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER, SRAVANA, KIRTANA AND SO ON. Therefore, one should take great care that there be no decline in any of the pinciple angas of bhakti. This is declared in the Agama sastra as quoted in Bhakti-rasamrta=sindhu (1.2.101):


sruti-smrti-puranadi- pancaratra-vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate


Although engaged in single minded devotion to Lord Hari, if one trangresses teh regulations mentioned in the Sruti, Smrti, Puranas and the Narada Pancaratra, great misgivings (anarthas) are produced.




Because the practice of smarana is predominant in raganuga bhakti, some persons, prior to the actual appearance of raga within the heart, make a deceitful display of solitary bhajan whie still plagued with anarthas. They consider themselves as rganuga-bhaktas and thus begin to practice remembrance of asta-kaliya-lila. But ot displa ythe exclusive devotion that is described in the sruti-smrti-puranadi verse is for them the cause of great disturbance. Some ineligible persons who are entangled in anarthas, obtain so called siddha pranali by going here and there, and by imitation, they begin to consider themselves fit to conduct the practice of raganuga bhakti. But without the apperance of enguine greed (lobha), they cannot obtain qualification by pretentious means.


Because the vidhi-marga is mixed with the mood of Dvaraka and the majectic conception (aisvarya), one cannot obtain the service of Vrajendra-nandana Sri Krsna by htat means. Thisis confirmed in Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 8.226:vdhi marge nahi paiye braje krsnacandra-"One cannot obtain Sri Krsnacandra in Vraja by following the vidhi-marga."



pp. 132.


WE read the same thing in SP's Cc. translation:


TEXT 226




'anghri-padma-sudha'ya kahe 'krsna-sangananda'

vidhi-marge na paiye vraje krsna-candra




anghri-padma-sudhaya--by the nectar derived from the lotus feet of Krsna; kahe--it says; krsna-sanga-ananda--transcendental bliss by the association of Krsna; vidhi-marge--on the path of regulative principles; na paiye--one does not get; vraje--in Goloka Vrndavana; krsna-candra--Lord Krsna.




"The word 'anghri-padma-sudha' means 'associating intimately with Krsna.' One can attain such perfection only by spontaneous love of God. One cannot obtain Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana simply by serving the Lord according to regulative principles.


TEXT 227




nayam sukhapo bhagavan

dehinam gopika-sutah

jnaninam catma-bhutanam

yatha bhakti-matam iha




na--not; ayam--this Lord Sri Krsna; sukha-apah--easily available; bhagavan--the Supreme Personality of Godhead; dehinam--for materialistic persons who have accepted the body as the self; gopika-sutah--the son of mother Yasoda; jnaninam--for persons addicted to mental speculation; ca--and; atma-bhutanam--for persons performing severe austerities and penances; yatha--as; bhakti-matam--for persons engaged in spontaneous devotional service; iha--in this world.




" 'The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, the son of mother Yasoda, is accessible to those devotees engaged in spontaneous loving service, but He is not as easily accessible to mental speculators, to those striving for self-realization by severe austerities and penances, or to those who consider the body the same as the self.'




This verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.9.21) is spoken by Srila Sukadeva Gosvami. It appears within a passage in which he glorifies mother Yasoda and other devotees of Krsna by describing how they can subjugate Him with their love.


TEXT 228




ataeva gopi-bhava kari angikara

ratri-dina cinte radha-krsnera vihara




ataeva--therefore; gopi-bhava--the loving mood of the gopis; kari--making; angikara--acceptance; ratri-dina--day and night; cinte--one thinks; radha-krsnera--of Radha and Krsna; vihara--the pastimes.




"Therefore one should accept the mood of the gopis in their service. In such a transcendental mood, one should always think of the pastimes of Sri Radha and Krsna.


TEXT 229




siddha-dehe cinti' kare tahanni sevana

sakhi-bhave paya radha-krsnera carana




siddha-dehe--in the perfected stage; cinti'--by remembering; kare--does; tahanni--in the spiritual world; sevana--service; sakhi-bhave--in mood of the gopis; paya--gets; radha-krsnera--of Radha and Krsna; carana--the lotus feet.




"After thinking of Radha and Krsna and Their pastimes for a long time and after getting completely free from material contamination, one is transferred to the spiritual world. There the devotee attains an opportunity to serve Radha and Krsna as one of the gopis.




Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura comments that the word siddha-deha, "perfected spiritual body," refers to a body beyond the material gross body composed of five elements and the subtle astral body composed of mind, intelligence and false ego. In other words, one attains a completely spiritual body fit to render service to the transcendental couple Radha and Krsna: sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam.

When one is situated in his spiritual body, which is beyond this gross and subtle material body, he is fit to serve Radha and Krsna. That body is called siddha-deha. The living entity attains a particular type of gross body in accordance with his past activities and mental condition. In this life the mental condition changes in different ways, and the same living entity gets another body in the next life according to his desires. The mind, intelligence and false ego are always engaged in an attempt to dominate material nature. According to that subtle astral body, one attains a gross body to enjoy the objects of one's desires. According to the activities of the present body, one prepares another subtle body. And according to the subtle body, one attains another gross body. This is the process of material existence. However, when one is spiritually situated and does not desire a gross or subtle body, he attains his original spiritual body. As confirmed by the Bhagavad-gita (4.9): tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so 'rjuna.

One is elevated to the spiritual world by the spiritual body and is situated either in Goloka Vrndavana or in another Vaikuntha planet. In the spiritual body there are no longer material desires, and one is fully satisfied by rendering service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Radha and Krsna. This is the platform of bhakti (hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate). When the spiritual body, mind and senses are completely purified, one can render service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His consort. In Vaikuntha the consort is Laksmi, and in Goloka Vrndavana the consort is Srimati Radharani. In the spiritual body, free from material contamination, one can serve Radha-Krsna and Laksmi-Narayana. When one is thus spiritually situated, he no longer thinks of his own personal sense gratification. This spiritual body is called siddha-deha, the body by which one can render transcendental service unto Radha and Krsna. The process is that of engaging the transcendental senses in loving devotional service. This verse specifically mentions, sakhi-bhave paya radha-krsnera carana: only transcendentally elevated persons in the mood of the gopis can engage in the service of the lotus feet of Radha and Krsna.


TEXT 230




gopi-anugatya vina aisvarya-jnane

bhajileha nahi paya vrajendra-nandane




gopi-anugatya--subservience to the gopis; vina--without; aisvarya-jnane--in the knowledge of opulence; bhajileha--if serving the Supreme Lord; nahi--not; paya--gets; vrajendra-nandane--the son of Maharaja Nanda, Krsna.




"Unless one follows in the footsteps of the gopis, he cannot attain the service of the lotus feet of Krsna, the son of Nanda Maharaja. If one is overcome by knowledge of the Lord's opulence, he cannot attain the Lord's lotus feet, even though he is engaged in devotional service.




One can worship Laksmi-Narayana by the process of vidhi-marga, worshiping the Lord with regulative principles according to the instructions of the sastra and the spiritual master. But the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Radha-Krsna, cannot be directly worshiped by this process. The dealings between Radha and Krsna and the gopis are devoid of the opulences of Laksmi-Narayana. The process of vidhi-marga, following the regulative principles, is utilized in the worship of Laksmi-Narayana, whereas the process of spontaneous service--following in the footsteps of the gopis, who are the denizens of Vrndavana--is transcendentally more advanced and is the process whereby Radha and Krsna are worshiped. One cannot attain this elevated position while worshiping the Lord in His opulence. Those attracted by the conjugal love between Radha and Krsna must follow in the footsteps of the gopis. Only then is it possible to enter into the Lord's service in Goloka Vrndavana and directly associate with Radha and Krsna.

Cc. Madhya lila



No one is on trial Ananga, but we will all be tested at the time of death. I don't have the slightest idea who you take guidance from. As you wish for yourself.

Who is out of line? Who is deviating from the advice of Srila Rupa. Let Krsna judge.




[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-21-2001).]

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TEXT 221




raganuga-marge tanre bhaje yei jana

sei-jana paya vraje vrajendra-nandana




raga-anuga--of spontaneous attachment; marge--on the path; tanre--Krsna; bhaje--worships; yei--who; jana--a person; sei-jana--that person; paya--gets; vraje--in Vrndavana; vrajendra-nandana--the son of Maharaja Nanda.




"If one worships the Lord on the path of spontaneous love and goes to Vrndavana, he receives the shelter of Vrajendra-nandana, the son of Nanda Maharaja.




In all, there are sixty-four items listed for the rendering of service unto Krsna, and these are the regulative principles enjoined in the sastras and given by the spiritual master. One has to serve Krsna according to these regulative principles, but if one develops spontaneous love for Krsna as exhibited in the activities of those who live in Vrajabhumi, one attains the platform of raganuga-bhakti. One who has developed this spontaneous love is eligible for elevation to the platform enjoyed by the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi. In Vrajabhumi, there are no regulative principles set forth for Krsna's service. Rather, everything is carried out in spontaneous, natural love for Krsna. There is no question of following the principles of the Vedic system. Such principles are followed within this material world, and as long as one is on the material platform, he has to execute them. However, spontaneous love of Krsna is transcendental. It may seem that the regulative principles are being violated, but the devotee is on the transcendental platform. Such service is called gunatita, or nirguna, for it is not contaminated by the three modes of material nature.


TEXT 222




vraja-lokera kona bhava lana yei bhaje

bhava-yogya deha pana krsna paya vraje




vraja-lokera--of the planet known as Goloka Vrndavana; kona--some; bhava--mood; lana--accepting; yei--anyone who; bhaje--executes devotional service; bhava-yogya--suitable for that spiritual attraction; deha--a body; pana--getting; krsna--Lord Krsna; paya--gets; vraje--in Vrndavana.




"In his liberated stage the devotee is attracted by one of the five humors in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. As he continues to serve the Lord in that transcendental mood, he attains a spiritual body to serve Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana.



Cc. Madhya Chapter 8


No one will get to this spontaenous liberated platform of thte residents of vraja without also following Sri Upadesamrta.

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Brother Puru:


No one on these or the VNN forums has said that the path of vaidhi marg is worthless, or that all followers of Sri Caitanya must adhere to the path of rag marg. Obviously there are two paths of bhakti for a reason, since there are different types of people that need a system of practice tailored to their individual needs. The ongoing problem with many of the followers of the two twentieth century Prahupadas is that they are so eager to sit up on the vyasasana and lecture everyone else, when they often only have one piece to the puzzle. For example: the matter of guru-tyaga. This is ordinarily a type of aparadha (or offense), however the sastras enjoin it under certain circumstances. Many GM/Iskcon members took that drastic step because they perceived that their gurus were exhibiting behavior that warranted (according to sastra) such action (one of the most common reasons was that the guru was seen to be vaisnava-vidvesi, or inimical to other Vaishnavas).


To bring in a few statements, such as the one by Rupa on anartha nivrtti, while at the same time ignoring all of the other evidence is simply giving an incomplete presentation. One can only surmise from this is that when you do such things, it can only be to win your case at all costs, irrespective of the truth.


As jijaji says: PEACE NOW



[This message has been edited by Ananga (edited 07-22-2001).]

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The ongoing problem with many of the followers of the two twentieth century Prahupadas is that they are so eager to sit up on the vyasasana and lecture everyone else, when they often only have one piece to the puzzle.


Only someone who is qualified should sit as Srila Vyasadeva's representative, otherwise not. The poor behavior of many of my so called godbrothers is hardly the issue when we are discussing the guaiyda view of how to approach raga marga. Most of them haven't read Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and are not actually following Sril Rupa Gosvami on guru tattva either, so this is a moot point.



For example: the matter of guru-tyaga. This is ordinarily a type of aparadha (or offense), however the sastras enjoin it under certain circumstances. Many GM/Iskcon members took that drastic step because they perceived that their gurus were exhibiting behavior that warranted (according to sastra) such action (one of the most common reasons was that the guru was seen to be vaisnava-vidvesi, or inimical to other Vaishnavas).


There is no question, if you read Srila Narahari Sakara Thakura's Sri Krsna Bhajanamrta, that in certain cases rejection of guru who becomes avaisnava is necessary. Sukracarya was rejected by Bali Maharaj for a bona fide reason. Also the point is made that many who claim to be "guru" are simply ecclesiastically appointed yes men that support an institution and not the actual understanding of the teachings of the six gosvamis of vraja. However I see a vast difference with rejection of institutionalized thinking that manifests in the mathas of bona fide acaryas after their samadhi, and rejecting those acaryas themselves. Institutional loyalty is not bhakti. But rejection of sad guru is another matter. Of course if you don't believe SBSST, or Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami were sad- guru then what can be done? Nothing I can say to you.


To bring in a few statements, such as the one by Rupa on anartha nivrtti, while at the same time ignoring all of the other evidence is simply giving an incomplete presentation.


I have been posting segments from Srila Narayana Maharj's translation of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj's books to simply illustrate that raga marga is not neglected by them, only approached under the guidance of SBSST and his guru varga. I don't see how they are in any disagreement with the acaryas you quoted,and in particular the gosvamis. You've simply offered certain statements that are better understood in context of the larger body of shastra they are found in. In the Ramananda samvad discussion between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Raya Ramananda in Madhya lila Ch. 8 of the Cc. we read:


TEXT 200




mora mukhe vakta tumi, tumi hao srota

atyanta rahasya, suna, sadhanera katha




mora mukhe--in my mouth; vakta--speaker; tumi--You are; tumi--You; hao--are; srota--the hearer; atyanta rahasya--extremely mysterious; suna--now please hear; sadhanera katha--the discussion of the process.




"Actually You are speaking through my mouth, and at the same time You are listening. This is very mysterious. Anyway, kindly hear the explanation by which the goal can be attained.




Srila Sanatana Gosvami has advised us to hear about Krsna from a Vaisnava. He has explicitly forbidden us to hear from an avaisnava.



putam hari-kathamrtam

sravanam naiva kartavyam

sarpocchistam yatha payah


Thus quoting from Padma Purana, Srila Sanatana Gosvami warns that one should not hear anything about Krsna from an avaisnava, however great a mundane scholar he may be. Milk touched by the lips of a serpent has poisonous effects; similarly, talks about Krsna given by an avaisnava are also poisonous. However, because a Vaisnava is surrendered to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his talks are spiritually potent. In the Bhagavad-gita (10.10) the Supreme Lord says,


tesam satata-yuktanam

bhajatam priti-purvakam

dadami buddhi-yogam

tam yena mam upayanti te


"To those who are constantly devoted to worshiping Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me." When a pure Vaisnava speaks, he speaks perfectly. How is this? His speech is managed by Krsna Himself from within the heart. Srila Ramananda Raya accepts this benediction from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; therefore he admits that whatever he was speaking was not derived from his own intelligence. Rather, everything was coming from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. According to the Bhagavad-gita (15.15):


sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto

mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca

vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo

vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham


"I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas."

All intelligence emanates from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supersoul within the heart of everyone. Nondevotees want to ask the Supreme Lord for sense gratification; therefore nondevotees come under the influence of maya, the illusory energy. A devotee, however, is directed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead and comes under the influence of yogamaya. Consequently there is a gulf of difference between statements made by a devotee and those made by a nondevotee.

Sri Cc. Madhya lila Ch. 8



One can only surmise from this is that when you do such things, it can only be to win your case at all costs, irrespective of the truth.


You are wlecome to believe that this is vitandi discussion and I am concerned with

"winning" a debate, but that is not the case.

The truth of any matter can be understood

in a vadi discussion and I believe the best way to bring out spiritual truth is to consult the shastra under sufficient guidance of a pure devotee.


Intersting that because I take such guidance from someone who ecclesiastically minded folowers in iskcon and even certain segments of the gm don't have an affinity to hear from; from their side I am considered a sahajiya. Then from your side, because I don't have an affinity to hear from the vaisnava's not in SBSST's line then you and jagat consider me reactionary and one sided, that I am guilty of the same error that I believe the iskcon followers are guilty of, of ignoring shastra. Spiritual life is indeed like a razor's edge, is it not? I don't see any fault in discrimation and filtering information about Radha and Krsna through the strainer of guru sadhu and shastra.


This middle position, as far as I can see it, it due to my belief that SBSST gave perfect direction for the bhadda jiva to make gradual progress toward raga marga with understanding of time and circumstance, and that he was

executing the will of SCM to make that path accessable to the most fallen, patita pavana.


Our real difference is there is who we take direction from toward the prayojana of suddha-bhakti. If anything I don't feel that

either SBSST, or Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, or Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja are incapable of offering me that direction, but can point me correctly toward

pure devotional service in the mood of the gopis. My connection to them is certainly eternal and I will always be under their guidance.


As jijaji says: PEACE NOW


Indeed. Whether it is apparant or not from these forum discussions, I actually have empathy for anyone who found iskcon uninhabitable, but have chosen a siksa guru from the same line, coming from SBSST, instead of going to any other group of followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. I don't see how trying to be an obedient disciple is a fault in this regard. Hearing from someonw who embodies the same mood as my diksa guru and is taking me further along the path seems a logical course of behavior. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura advocates this step in his book bhakti-tattva-viveka, explains it more succinctly in Jaiva Dharma and Srila Visvanatha Cakrabarti Thakura also instructs the same way in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu, when he explains the 62nd anga of bhakti,sajatiya-snigdha-mahattar-sadhu-sangah(association of like minded affectionate advanced devotees).


This is certaily not a page of cyberspace that you will necessarily appreciate.



The way this essay was received, illustrates that anyone who is following SBSST and the Gosvamis under the guidance of his guru varga can come under fire from all other sides. Nothing surpising and nothing to be disturbed about either.


[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-22-2001).]

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Anangaji: I agree that both 20th century PrabhupAd's appear to be overly critical or sometimes even inimical to other vaiSNavas.

You of course know what one said in Raman-reti 1977:

"Okay, the war is over. I beg forgiveness. For preaching purposes and to protect my novice zisyas I sometimes had to say certain things. I apologize for that."

Other vaisnavas insulted his preaching work. He insulted them back. Some tit for tat went on. None can deny.

But at least there was no bloodshed. And many important philosophical points were raise. And they'll continue to be raised. Yesterday it was VNN Forums. Today it's IndiaDivine.

The casings may be many. The content consistent.

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I think we should also take into consideration that in the early days of ISKCON everyone was pretty much given the high pressure hard sell tactics on who they should accept as their guru, rather than letting them decide for themselves as to who was the most qualified to be their spiritual master. This even extended to many potential gurus in the Sarasvata parampara itself, not just those from the 'babaji camp'. That is a tragic fact, considering how liberal the spirit of Mahaprabhu's movement is, that such dirty politics end up polluting various branches of it.


Om Tat Sat. Amam brahmasmi. Tattvamasi.


Santi, santi, santih, harih om.


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Greetings. Could you be more specific about which time period you are refering to when you say the "early days" of iskcon. I would understand that time to be l965-77, but you may mean after that. When our founder-acarya was on the planet there wasn't much question of anyone taking diksa from anyone else. No one ever had to "hard sell" His Divine Grace, from what I remember. After his samadhi post 1977 then that is another issue altogether.


[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-22-2001).]

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Tarun: I agree that both 20th century PrabhupAd's appear to be overly critical or sometimes even inimical to other vaiSNavas.


Satyaraj: It seems to be an old Gaudiya's saga. The Caitanya-caritamrta is full of offences against Vallabhacarya, tattvadis, Sri-vaisnavas, other sanatana-dharma followers and even Buddhists.


Sadly most sects do this as time goes on. Initially, the great sages and their immediate followers may be on good terms, but as time progresses, the proponents of one sect will deride others to make themselves look better in the eyes of their own followers. It is also a way to stop their own followers from reading other sect's works or from hearing other sect's preceptors - because they have been pre-judged to be lack-luster - and thus keep the sect insular and deteriorating.


Now they are raising the issue of guru-tyagis. According to those sectarian groups no one should abandon his guru. They are asking: "Is guru-disciple relationship a democracy?"


Guru-disciple relationship is not actually a democracy, but maybe a kind of familiar and preceptorial relationship mixed altogether. But nowadays we are seeing gurus traveling all over and pointing out themselves as sad-gurus. They are like candidates to be voted. "Oh, look at me! Old Indian guru, 50 years of sannyasa, very learned, and so on!", "Take my diksa! I had worked so hard for my guru's cause!", "Oh! I can fly!" If one has voted for a guru like that and after some time he is regretted, for certain he will elect another guru next time.


This is Kali-yuga, and according to some experts in Kali-yuga's behavior, during this age gurus cannot see and disciples cannot hear. Guru-disciple relationship is a mere mundane formality, mantras are all inefficient, and only Hari is the shelter.


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Spiritual life without the loving guidance of sad guru is simply an hallucination. Just burn your copy of the Bhagavad-gita so you don't have to read 4.34. Read this essay by the founder-acarya of the Gaudia Matha.


Organised Religion

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura


Sri Krsna manifest His eternal birth the pure cognitive essence of the serving soul who is located above all mundane limitations, King Kamsa is the typical aggressive empiricist, ever on the lookout for the appearance of the truth for the purpose of suppressing Him before He has time to develop. This is no

exaggeration of the real connotation of the consistent empiric position. The materialist has a natural repugnance for the transcendent. He is disposed to link that faith in the incomprehensible is the parent of dogmatism and hypocrisy in the guise of religion. He is also equally under the delusion that there is no real dividing line between the material and the spiritual, he is strengthened in his delusion by the

interpretation of scriptures by persons who are like-minded with himself. This includes all the lexicographic interpreters.


The lexicographical interpretation is upheld by Kamsa as the real scientific explanation of the scriptures, and is perfectly in keeping with his dread of and aversion for the transcendental. These lexicographical

interpreters are employed by Kamsa in putting down the first suspected appearance of any genuine faith in the transcendental. King Kamsa knows very well that if the faith in the transcendental is once allowed to grow it is sure to upset all his empiric prospects.


There is historical ground forsuch misgivings. Accordingly if the empiric domination is to be preserved in tact it would be necessary not to lose a moment to put down the transcendental heresy the instant it threatens to make its appearance in earnest. King Kamsa, acting on this traditional fear is never slow to

take the scientific precaution of deputing empiric teachers of the scriptures, backed by the resources of dictionary and grammar and all empiric subtleties to put down, by the show of specious arguments based on hypothetical principles, the true interpretation of the eternal religion revealed by the scriptures.


Kamsa is strongly persuaded that faith in the transcendental can be effectively put down by empiricism if prompt and decisive measures are adopted at the very outset. He attributes the failure of atheism in the past to the neglect of the adoption of such measures before the theistic fallacy has had time to spread among the fanatical masses.


But Kamsa is found to count without his host. When Krsna is born He is found to be able to upset all sinister designs against those who are apprised by Himself of His advent. the apparently causeless faith displayed by persons irrespective of age, sex and condition may confound all rabid empiricist who are on principle adverse to the Absolute Truth Whose appearance is utterly incompatible with the domination of



But no adverse efforts of the empiricists, whose rule seems till then to be pefectly well-established over the minds of the deluded souls of this world can dissuade any person from exclusively in following the

Truth when He actually manifests His birth in the pure cognitive essence of the soul.


Putana is the slayer of all infants. The baby, when he or she comes out of the mother's womb, falls at once into the hands of the pseudo-teachers of religion. These teachers are successful in forestalling the

attempts of the good preceptor whose help is never sought by the atheists of this world at the baptisms of their babies. This is ensured by the arrangements of all established churches of the world. They have been successful only in supplying watchful Putanas for effecting the spiritual destruction of persons from the moment of their birth with the cooperation of their worldly parents. No human contrivance can prevent these Putanas from obtaining possession of the pulpits. This is due to the general prevalence of

atheistic disposition in the people of this world.


The church that has the best chance of survival in this damned world is that of atheism under the convenient guise of theism. The churches have always proved the staunchest upholders of the grossest form of worldliness from which even the worst of non-ecclesiastical criminals are found

to recoil.


It is not from any deliberate opposition to the ordained clergy that these observations are made. The original purpose of the established churches of the world may not always be objectionable. But no stable religious arrangement for instructing the masses has yet been successful. The Supreme Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in pursuance of the teachings of the scriptures enjoins all absence of conventionalism for the teachers of the eternal religion. It does not follow that the mechanical

adoption of the unconventional life by any person will make him a fit teacher of religion. Regulation is necessary for controlling the inherent worldliness of conditional souls.


But no mechanical regulation has any value, even for such a purpose. The bona-fide teacher of religion is neither any product of nor the favourer of, any mechanical system. In his hands no system has likewise, the chance of degenerating into a lifeless arrangement. The mere pursuit of

fixed doctrines and fixed liturgies cannot hold a person to the true spirit of doctrine or liturgy.


The idea of an organised church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and the dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the

part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale.


Those are, therefore, greatly mistaken who are disposed to look forward to the amelioration of the worldly state in any worldly sense from the worldly success of any really spiritual movement. It is these

worldly expectants who become the patrons of the mischievous race of the pseudo-teachers of religion, the Putanas, whose congenial function is to stifle the theistic disposition at the very moment of its

suspected appearance. But the real theistic disposition can never be stifled by the efforts of those Putanas. The Putanas have power only over the atheist. It is a thankless but salutary task which they

perform for the benefit of their unwilling victims.


But as soon as theistic disposition proper makes its appearance in the pure cognitive essence, of the awakened soul, the Putanas are decisively silenced at the very earliest stage of their encounter with new-born Krsna. The would-be slayer is herself slain. This is the reward of the negative services that the

Putanas unwittingly render to the cause of theism by strangling all hypocritical demonstrations against

their own hypocrisy.


But Putana does not at all like to receive her reward in only form which involves the total destruction of her wrong personality. King Kamsa also does not like to lose the services of the most trusted of his

agents. The effective silencing of the whole race of pseudo-teachers of religion is the first clear indication of the appearance of the Absolute on the mundane plane. The bona-fide teacher of the Absolute,heralds the Advent of Krsna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of



Excerpted from the essay "Putana" printed in the January 1932 edition of The Harmonist, or Sree Sajjanatoshani.

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Sri Krsna manifest His eternal birth the pure cognitive essence of the serving soul who is located above all mundane limitations...

What does 'eternal birth' mean? Isn't that an oxymoron?



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The materialist has a natural repugnance...


A materialist is also part of Hari's lilas. Demons, maya, rascals, atheists, and other concepts that only may create a shadow in our vision of these lilas are to be eliminated.


How can one love Hari by being a foe of the rest of His lilas? Why to stimulate this kind of conceptions?


Gita's sloka (4.34) talks about a tattva-darsini preceptor. The most elementary tattva is that Hari is the supreme cause of everything, there is nothing than Hari. How a tattva-darsini preceptor may give instructions on how to hate everybody else?


That the whole text presented by you is only a inference on a smrti. It is an opinion on a commentary of a sruti text. No real value it may has besides a mere curiosity written by someone who hates the world and its 'materialists.' No real Hari's lover would ever write in such offensive way.



[This message has been edited by Satyaraja dasa (edited 07-23-2001).]

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