The Origin of Jiva (jiva-tattva)

April 25, 2001

Sankaracarya's mayavada doctrine states that jiva is Brahman covered by avidya. Sankaracarya presented avidya as something inexpressible by stating: 'sat asat vilaksana anirvacaniyatra', meaning that avidya is beyond description as it is neither existent or non-existent.

How then can Brahman be afflicted by avidya? From where did this second substance called avidya come from? If you argue that avidya is false, for its is neither real or unreal, how can it touch and even surpass Brahman?

And what is the origin of this independent jiva-tattva which is separate from Brahman??? If you allege that Brahman was afflicted by avidya and become jiva, then it is Brahman, and not jiva, which was the original shelter of avidya, and therefore as sarvam kalvidam brahma, avidya is Brahman.

As mayavada doctrine cannot explain any real jiva-tattva, we humble present the savisesa-abheda concept of jiva-tattva as postulated by Vaisnavas, as follows:

The Origin of Jiva

Karanabdhisayi Maha-Visnu is situated in the Viraja, which lies between the cit-jagat and the mayika-jagad. By His glance towards maya, the minute conscious jivas are manifested in the form of rays of His glance.

Because they are situated close to maya, these jivas notice the wonderful nature of maya. Because of their being extremely minute or in insignificant by nature, and because of their marginal disposition, they sometimes gaze in the direction of the cit-jagat and sometimes in the direction of the mayika-jagat.

The jivas are extremely weak in the marginal condition, because at that time they have not yet attained cid-bala (spiritual strngth) by the mercy of the sevya-vastu (the object of service). [Therefore they actually cannot be consider guilty on being averse to Sri Bhagavan, as jivas' fall is caused by their spiritual immaturity]

Among these unlimited jivas, those who are infatuated by sense gratification and want to enjoy maya become bound by maya.

Conversely, those jivas who ponder over the sevya-vastu attain the strength of cit-sakti by the mercy of the sevya-vastu, and go to the transcendental abode.

Maya is Krsna`s sakti by which He creates the mundane universe. He then engages the maya-sakti in purifying the jivas who are averse towards bhakti. Maya has two functions, namely avidya and pradhana. The function of avidya is related to the jiva and the function of pradhana is characterized by jada, inanimate matter.

The jiva`s desire to perform reward-producing activities (karma-vasana) is born from avidya, and the whole inert universe has arisen from paradhana.

Vidya and avidya are two further dimensions of maya which are both related to jiva. The bondage of the jiva comes from the function avidya and his liberation comes from the function vidya. When a jiva becomes inclined towards Krsna the actions of the vidya function begin in his heart. However, when he becomes averse, the action of the avidya function begins.

1.) In Goloka Vrindavana, Sri Baladeva Prabhu manifests nitya-parsada (eternal associates).

2.) In Paravyoma Vaikuntha, Maha-Sankarsana manifests unlimited nitya-parsada jivas to serve Vaikunthapati Narayana.

Nitya-parsada manifested in Goloka Vrindavana and in Paravyoma Vaikuntha are situated in their own constitutional forms for eternal time, they always remain attentive to the service of their worshipful Deity. They are always inclined towards the object of their worship and they are always strong, having attained strength of the cit-sakti. They have no relationship with jada-maya, and do not even know that there are a sakti called maya. Prema alone is their life. They are unaware of even the slightest semblance of birth, death, fear and lamentation.

3.) Karanabdhisayi Maha-Visnu manifests those tatastha-jivas that are minute conscious entities manifested in the form of the rays of His glance. Those are the kind of jivas able to be attracted by maya. Not the others. Those kind of jivas had never been at Vaikuntha, and what to say at Goloka Vrindava. The only section of the spiritual world that they had been is the Causal Ocean, beyond jada-jagat.

The Brihadaranyaka Upanisad (4.3.9) says:

tasya va etasya purusasya dve eva sthane

bhavata idam ca paralokasthanañca sandhyam

tritiyam svapnasthanam tasmim sandhye sthane tisthannete ubhe

sthanae pasyatidañca paralokasthanañca

"That jiva-purusa has two positions, namely the inanimate material world and the spiritual world about he should inquire. The jiva is situated in a third position, which is svapnasthana (tatastha) and is the juncture between these two. Being situated on the place where the two worlds meet, he sees both the jada-visva (inert world) and the cid-visva (spiritual-world)."

The aggregate of jivas in manifest from tatastha-sakti. Although they have arisen from Paramesvava (Karanabdhisayi Visnu), they are still separately existing individual entities. The jivas is compared to an atomic particle of the sun's ray or to a spark of a fire. The Brihadaranyaka Upanisad (2.1.20) says that clearly:

yathagneh ksudra visphulinga vyuccaranti

evamevasmadatmanah sarvani bhutani vyuccaranti

"As sparks emanate from fire, similarly the aggregate of jivas is manifested from sarvatma, the original atma."

From this is clear that jivas, being atomic conscious particles and vibhinnamsa-tattva, are subordinate to the original atma, Sri Krsna. They are eligible for maya-jagat or the cit-jagad because of their tatastha (marginal) nature. If they look in the direction of the cit-jagat, the sakti of yogamaya empowers them and they become engaged in the service of Bhagavan in the cit-jagat. That condition is thereafter irreversible. They will never abandon the cit-jagat, as yogamaya does not permit. No one would be "liberated" from yogamaya and thereafter fall down into jada-jagat.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

shvu · April 25, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>How then can Brahman be afflicted by

avidya?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the effect of Maya.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>From where did this second substance called avidya come from?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maya again.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you argue that avidya is false, for its is neither real or unreal, how can it touch and even surpass Brahman?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the key point of Advaita. For one, who realizes his true self as Brahman and everything as Brahman, there is no such thing as Jiva or Maya or Avidya. A person who is in ignorance, has no idea of Brahman.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And what is the origin of this independent jiva-tattva which is separate from Brahman??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing is independent of Brahman ever.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you allege that Brahman was afflicted by avidya and become jiva, then it is Brahman, and not jiva, which was the original shelter of avidya, and therefore as sarvam kalvidam brahma, avidya is Brahman. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As mayavada doctrine cannot explain any real jiva-tattva...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You spoke too soon. If Shankara could not explained fundamentals, his Mayavada would have disappeared long ago.

Cheers

shvu · April 25, 2001

Jiva-tattva in two verses.

By means of the Higher Knowledge the wise

behold everywhere Brahman, which otherwise

cannot be seen or seized, which has no root

or attributes, no eyes or ears, no hands or

feet; which is eternal and omnipresent, all-

pervading and extremely subtle; which is

imperishable and the source of all beings.

Mundaka Upanishad - 1.1.6

As the spider sends forth and draws in its

thread, as plants grow on the earth, as hair

grows on the head and the body of a living

man—so does everything in the universe arise

from the Imperishable.

Mundaka Upanishad - 1.1.7

Cheers

Jahnava Nitai Das · April 25, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>That is the key point of Advaita. For one, who realizes his true self as Brahman and everything as Brahman, there is no such thing as Jiva or Maya or Avidya. A person who is in ignorance, has no idea of Brahman.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the point that most sane people have trouble accepting. Maya doesn't actually exist, yet it is covering the absolute truth.

Ok, why not.

shvu · April 25, 2001

Then sane people will also have trouble accepting Vedas and the Bhagavad Gita, thus raising the question of the sanity of the scriptures themselves.

An example:

A person can be the President of the US in his dream. For the duration of the dream, his role is real and he is very much in the white house. Once he wakes up, he is on his bed in his home. Similarly, the embodied Jiva identifying itself with the body, sees itself as distinct from the rest of creation. The Jiva realizing it's true nature is similar to the dreaming man waking up to his real world.

Cheers

shvu · April 25, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Maya doesn't actually exist, yet it is covering the absolute truth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maya does not exist to the realized person. For the Jiva, Maya or duality is very much real. The difference is a key factor.

Cheers

April 25, 2001

>> That is the key point of Advaita. For one, who realizes his true self as Brahman and everything as Brahman, there is no such thing as Jiva or Maya or Avidya. A person who is in ignorance, has no idea of Brahman.

This premise considers:

1.Brahman - is everything.

2. jiva - false, non-existent.

3. Maya - false, non existent.

So, how a non-existent entity such as maya may cover Brahman and thereafter be transformed into another non-existent entity?

Following this premise how a non-existent entity (jiva) may be covered by another non-existent entity (avidya) and thereafter, through jñana, be transformed into Brahman? And how can Brahman be covered by a non-existent entity and be surpassed by it?

If the non-existent entity called jiva states that aham brahma 'smi, he is stating that Brahman is also non-existent, and this reasoning is clearly opposite to Sankara's conclusion; brahma satyam jagan mithya jivo brahmaiva naparah.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

shvu · April 25, 2001

Brahman - is everything.

True.

jiva - false, non-existent

Wrong. The concept of a distinct Jiva is proved false only on realization. Realization is to understand that Brahman is one's own true nature and Brahman is all there is. It has to be an actual realization; simple book reading or hearing will not do. Until a person is realized, the concept of a distinct Jiva, Paramatama and Jagat is fully valid.

Maya - false, non existent

To the Jnani only. Not to a Jiva, which is enveloped in Avidya.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So, how a non-existent entity such as maya may cover Brahman and thereafter be transformed into another non-existent entity? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the explanation above. It also covers the rest of your questions. Brahma Satyam and Jagat Mithya are valid only when together. To a Jiva, there is no knowledge of Brahman and the Jagat is Real.

Want more info on Maya? Read the Krishna-Narda story in the Bhagavata, where Narada forgets who is.

Cheers

April 25, 2001

Mayavadi's conclusion is: "Jiva and Brahman are abhinna; there is no difference at all between them. In the conditioned state, when Brahman is covered by avidya it is called jiva. Jiva and the world have no factual existence: 'brahma satyam jaganmithya brahmaiva naparah.'

However, this conclusion is completely imaginary, opposed to sruti and a fake in all aspects, because in the srutis Parabrahman has been described as complete, flawless, undivided and composed of eternity, knowledge and bliss whereas the jiva has been described as minute, a spark of conscience expanded from Prabrahman (or Bhagavan) who is sarva-saktiman, omnipotent. Parabrahman is one, but jivas are innumerable:

balagra sata bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca

bhago jivah sa vijneyah sa canantyaya kalpate

(Svetasvatara Upanisad 5.9)

"Though the jiva is situated in an inert material body, he is a subtle transcendental principle (tattva). If one divides the tip of a hair into one hundred parts and again divides one of those parts into hundred parts, then however subtle one of those parts may be, the jiva is even more subtle than that. Although he is so subtle, the jiva is a spritual substance (aprakrta vastu) and he is suitable for anantya dharma." ('ant' means 'to be free from death', and anantya maens moksa, liberation).

Therefore sruti is clear stating that jiva is atomic (minute) in size, but never non-existent. Jiva is anu-caitanya (minutely conscious) and endowed with the quality of knowledge. He has the self-reference of "I", and he is an enjoyer, a thinker and an intelligent entity, in spite of his minute svarupa.

The Mundaka Upanisad also corroborate the same assertive:

eso' nuratma setasa veditavyo - "This atma is atomic in size."

And Gitopanisad, the sastra that conciliates different opinions of all srutis, states very clearly:

apareyam itas tv anyam / prakrtim viddhi me param

jiva-bhutam maha-baho / yayedam dhayate jagam

(B.g. 7.5)

"He Mahabaho! The maya-sakti is my apara, or inferior potency. Apart from this I have jiva-bhuta, my apara or superior potency, in the form of jiva-sakti by which you should known, this entire universe is being maintained."

So, anmaya clearly states that jiva is an eternal principle distinct from Parabrahman and also eternal. Therefore, kevaladvaita-vada is avaidhika, because it is clearly denying srutis precepts.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

April 25, 2001

Mayavadi's conclusion is: "Jiva and Brahman are abhinna; there is no difference at all between them. In the conditioned state, when Brahman is covered by avidya it is called jiva. Jiva and the world have no factual existence: 'brahma satyam jaganmithya brahmaiva naparah.'

However, this conclusion is completely imaginary, opposed to sruti and a fake in all aspects, because in the srutis Parabrahman has been described as complete, flawless, undivided and composed of eternity, knowledge and bliss whereas the jiva has been described as minute, a spark of conscience expanded from Prabrahman (or Bhagavan) who is sarva-saktiman, omnipotent. Parabrahman is one, but jivas are innumerable:

balagra sata bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca

bhago jivah sa vijneyah sa canantyaya kalpate

(Svetasvatara Upanisad 5.9)

"Though the jiva is situated in an inert material body, he is a subtle transcendental principle (tattva). If one divides the tip of a hair into one hundred parts and again divides one of those parts into hundred parts, then however subtle one of those parts may be, the jiva is even more subtle than that. Although he is so subtle, the jiva is a spritual substance (aprakrta vastu) and he is suitable for anantya dharma." ('ant' means 'to be free from death', and anantya maens moksa, liberation).

Therefore sruti is clear stating that jiva is atomic (minute) in size, but never non-existent. Jiva is anu-caitanya (minutely conscious) and endowed with the quality of knowledge. He has the self-reference of "I", and he is an enjoyer, a thinker and an intelligent entity, in spite of his minute svarupa.

The Mundaka Upanisad also corroborate the same assertive:

eso' nuratma setasa veditavyo - "This atma is atomic in size."

And Gitopanisad, the sastra that conciliates different opinions of all srutis, states very clearly:

apareyam itas tv anyam / prakrtim viddhi me param

jiva-bhutam maha-baho / yayedam dhayate jagam

(B.g. 7.5)

"He Mahabaho! The maya-sakti is my apara, or inferior potency. Apart from this I have jiva-bhuta, my apara or superior potency, in the form of jiva-sakti by which you should known, this entire universe is being maintained."

So, anmaya clearly states that jiva is an eternal principle distinct from Parabrahman and also eternal. Therefore, kevaladvaita-vada is avaidhika, because it is clearly denying srutis precepts.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

shvu · April 25, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Mayavadi's conclusion is: "Jiva and Brahman are abhinna; there is no difference at all between them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong. It is convenient to pick out a part of the Sutra and find fault. But however, it does not work that way. Keep them together and then find fault, if you can.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>However, this conclusion is completely imaginary, opposed to sruti and a fake in all aspects,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[...]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Although he is so subtle, the jiva is a spritual substance (aprakrta vastu) and he is suitable for anantya dharma." ('ant' means 'to be free from death', and anantya maens moksa, liberation).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Touchè.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Therefore sruti is clear stating that jiva is atomic (minute) in size, but never non-existent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since Jiva is essentially Brahman, it is eternal wrt to it's true nature.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Therefore, kevaladvaita-vada is avaidhika, because it is clearly denying srutis precepts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[...]

Only a person who has studied the Upanishads and Advaita can make such a statement and only after providing proper rebuttal. With due respect, you have studied neither which disqualifies your from judging Advaita based on hearsay statements.

Go back to your Gurus, study the Upanishads, study Advaita and then pick faults like any proper scholar will do. Then perhaps your opinions can be taken more seriously. Until then, your opinion of Advaita plus a buck can get one a bus-ride.

Cheers

amanpeter · April 25, 2001

Shvu states that becoming realized, one sees that Brahman is all there is. Gaudiyas experience a personal reality as the basis of Brahman. Neither can claim final knowledge of the unlimited Absolute which we call God. Brahman realization without the personal conception ends there, while those that have a personal connection with the Supreme Personal continue to grow in their relationship since intimacy is ever increasing. As part of God's energies we can either merge into our own energy, becoming one with it, or choose to relate with the source of all energies person-to-person. Most would admit that interpersonal interaction provides more pleasure and ultimate satisfaction than trying to amuse oneself all alone (you ARE still here, aren't you Shvu, in spite of many good-byes). Sometimes we find ourselves unwilling or unable to relate with each other because we want to define the relationship only on our own terms and refuse to participate unless we can have everything our way. Of course this is childish and seen as immature by most adults. Attempting to destroy one's personality by merging into the impersonal energy of the Divine rather than grow into a vital, living and deeply personal relationship, which continues to become more and more rewarding, is like a child holding it's breath because it's parents won't comply with it's every wish. One way leads to death and one to everlasting life without the very problems we all face here in this world, that might make us want to choose death as the only perceived solution to a seemingly hopeless situation. Stubborness is simply willful ignorance and therefore an indication of the most basic stupidity. No one can define with absolute certainty the final limits of reality. We can always find a dark corner to hide in though, along with the `evidence` needed to convince us that we've reached the ultimate conclusion and everything outside of our obviously self-defined limited viewpoint is false or non-existent. A philosophical discussion between fanatics may provide some amusement for a time, but in the end they are only talking to themselves as there is no real intercommunication. My point is that God has given us all we need to believe whatever we want in this world and back it up with vast evidence as well, scientific and/or scriptural. However, if we truly want out of this insane asylum we're going to have to face the one who is in control and at least muster up enough sanity to admit to ourselves that we are not in control, individually or collectively. Unfortunately, many apparently prefer to argue with themselves adinfinitum. Best not to be drawn into such madness unless we come armed with anti-psychotic medication and are qualified in it's use. Satyaraj prabhu, it should be obvious by now that you are not empowered in the way you may have believed you were, so better to get back to the beads as opposed to the books. Shvu, I do not know you and do not want to insult or offend, but there must be some other way you that brahman realized souls amuse themselves than verbal word jugglery and mundane wrangling. My suggestion is to try some physical service by helping the less fortunate in the forms of the homeless and poor among us. Maybe by God's Divine Grace you will experience what you need to break free of the mental loop you seem to be stuck in. Best wishes to all concerned and my prayers are with you.

Jahnava Nitai Das · April 25, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In simple words, the body has to complete the set of activites that it has to finish.

But I thnk the real question is why did he preach, knowing full well others did not exist. There was no need for him to liberate the non-existent. Since he had realized that he was everything, there was no point to continue preaching, for that entails accpetance if the illusion of duality.

There are many sages throughout the Puranas that simply stopped acting. They became complete avadhutas.

shvu · April 25, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But I thnk the real question is why did he preach, knowing full well others did not exist. There was no need for him to liberate the non-existent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no 'him' there anymore, to see others or to feel pity for them, et cetera. So that question does not arise.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There are many sages throughout the Puranas that simply stopped acting. They became complete avadhutas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was their Prarabdha-Karma. There is no standard pattern that all realized people will follow.

Cheers

shvu · April 25, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We are now missing our point, as the intention of this thread is to present savisesa-abheda's understandig of jiva-tattva, that confronts mayavada's jiva-tattva.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are free to present anything you want. but when you come up with absurd statements like 'mayavada doctrine cannot explain any real jiva-tattva...', it is natural that people will raise objections. You should try this on the Advaita forum sometime. it would be interesting to see how the Advaitins react.

Cheers

Jahnava Nitai Das · April 25, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>That was their Prarabdha-Karma. There is no standard pattern that all realized people will follow.

But why did non-existent prarabda karma continue to exist for a brahman realized soul?

April 26, 2001

"By means of the Higher Knowledge the wise behold everywhere Brahman, which otherwise cannot be seen or seized, which has no root or attributes, no eyes or ears, no hands or feet; which is eternal and omnipresent, all- pervading and extremely subtle; which is imperishable and the source of all beings."

Mundaka Upanishad - 1.1.6

Again this mantra that was quoted by Shvuji is against his own thesis. It is clearly stated that Brahman is the cause of all beings and also that He is eternal and omnipresent. Therefore, how can His minute sparks (jivas), can be considered as false in any of the phases of time? And how then can Brahman be afflicted by avidya? From where did this second substance called avidya come from and had surpassed Brahman?

With due respect, you have studied neither which disqualifies your from judging Advaita based on hearsay statements.

As you may known, no one should attain any transcendental knowledge by studding sastras by his own accont. Only hearsay statements from a sabdha-brahma vibrator are the cause of real knowledge, other sources of knowledge may only lead one to impermanent and material conclusions based on laukika-sraddha, mundane faith.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

April 26, 2001

This Amanpeter is quite right in his position. We are now missing our point, as the intention of this thread is to present savisesa-abheda's understandig of jiva-tattva, that confronts mayavada's jiva-tattva.

We are not intending to discuss mayavada, as we are not qualified to do that. We are only being coherent with our past assertive in some other threads, where we stated that both philosophies cannot conduce one to self-realization and they are only a step in the progressive path to self-realization. Much more is needed.

Let's try to post some more points on savisesa-abheda philosophy tomorrow and we suggest that the discussions should be focused in that explanation, and not in advaita-vada.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

Maitreya · April 26, 2001

This is such a nice debate that I am loath to interrupt.But some debates also include a Q&A period from the audience.

Here is my question:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>from shvu:

Maya does not exist to the realized person.For the Jiva Maya or Duality is very much real.The difference is a key factor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So my question is;why would the self-realized ,such as Sankaracarya, preach if he had realized that no others exist?

Please consider the audience may pose questions of a less sophisticated nature than the principles.Thank you for your responses.

YS, Maitreya

shvu · April 26, 2001

Jivo Brahmaivana paraha

Whoever said that the Jiva is false? It is the concept of a distinct Jiva, that is false. And even this truth is something that is to be realized and not to be known superficially.

Let's face it, your ping-pong style is not working. Ask one question. When answered, ask another question. When this is answered, go back and ask the old question again. You can do this for eternity.

You can try all day and will still find nothing. People like you have tried to pull down Advaita for 1300 years now, without success. Your knowledge of Advaita, will only hold value among other ignorants like you. Within your own mutual_admiration_society, you can pat each other on the back for your 'supreme' knowledge of Mayavada and kid yourselves. In your own interest, stop being silly.

Cheers

shvu · April 26, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So my question is;why would the self-realized ,such as Sankaracarya, preach if he had realized that no others exist?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool question. Shankara was a Jivan-Mukta. His body however has to complete it's Prarabda Karma. In simple words, the body has to complete the set of activites that it has to finish. However the activites themselves, do not affect that individual, as he is liberated. Another example is Suka, the son of Vyasa. He was a Jivan-Mukta too. I guess you may have read the story of Suka, the girls bathing, etc. Ramana is another example, if you know about him. In his words, "The spiritual current takes over and the body continues it's activities as before. To the onlooker, everything remains the same. But there is no one here"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Please consider the audience may pose questions of a less sophisticated nature than the principles.Thank you for your responses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one is a scholar here. And it is a open discussion for all to participate.

Cheers

shvu · April 26, 2001

Jivan-mukta - Liberated while still alive is the literal meaning. Self-realized is a simpler equivalent.

Cheers

April 26, 2001

According Sankara's mayavada jiva's fall down is caused by avidya and jiva attains Brahman when avidya is dissipated, thereafter he merges into Brahman.

Now we will present jiva's fall down and his liberation according savisesa-abheda precepts, following Vaisnava's line.

Jiva's fall down and his liberation

The jiva's fall down is caused by the misuses of his own natural independence because of his marginal nature - tatastha-dharma - when he becomes bahir-mukha.

At that time his pure constitutional form becomes covered by the gross and subtle body given by Maya and he identifies himself with the gross and subtle material bodies. Then he tastes happiness and distress in the cycle of material existence, taking his birth in various species of life, sometimes in the heavenly planets and sometimes in the hellish regions. He is burnt continually by the three fold-miseries: adhyatmika,, adhidaivika and adhibhautika. In this way, he goes on wandering throughout the material world.

If by good fortune he attains the company of a sadhu who is accomplished in tattva-jñana, then by his instructions the jiva's ignorance is dispelled. Attaining Sri Hari bhakti, he becomes qualified to render service to Bhagavan.

The jiva bound by maya is controlled by the samskara of his fruitive actions, by the gunas and by self-identification with the body expressed through conceptions such as "I" and "mine." Thus he accepts birth in various species of life, and while wandering on and on in this way, he may get sadhu-sanga, and by that influence develop sraddha. When he comes to know Bhagavan through his inclination to render service, he attains release forever from all the bindings of Maya.

But we must consider that jivas who are suitable to fall down are exclusively those ones who were generated by the glance of the Karanabdhisayi Maha-Visnu, who is situated in the Viraja, with lies between the cit and the mayika-jagat. Those jivas are named tatastha, because their marginal nature. Those jivas never has saw Goloka Vrindavana neither Paravyoma Vaikuntha, because of their immature svarupa in its aspects of samvit-sakti and hladini-sakti.

Those jivas who were manifested by Sri Baladeva Prabhu and who serve Sri Krsna in Goloka Vrindavana, never fall down. However, they can manifest themselves in jada-jagad as when Sri Krsna-lila comes to that place, or in a kind of rescue mission, by anugatya of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna. That is the position that we should appreciate when we meet a sad-guru, a real Vaisnava Acarya, a nitya-siddha-parsada of Sri Sri Yugala Kisora

Radha and Krsna.

Those jivas who were manifested by Sri Maha-Sankarsana in Paravyoma Vaikuntha, and who serve Laksmipati Narayana, always remain in His service, and also never fall. They also can manifest themselves in jada-jagad under the same conditions of the later ones.

Those tatastha jivas after being perfect in sadhana, and by the mercy of the sevya-vastu, go to transcendental abode and by Yogamaya's activities they cannot fall down anymore.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

shvu · April 26, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But why did non-existent prarabda karma continue to exist for a brahman realized soul?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A realized person cannot be called a 'soul' to begin with and is not bound to the body either. The Prarabdha-karma is for that body. The same way one can explain the activites of the embodied Krishna.

Cheers

amanpeter · April 26, 2001

So let me know when you're going to lift Govardan Hill, shvu, I could use a little shelter from the storm. Also, there are a few demons around here that could use a good whacking, just drop on over anytime.

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The Origin of Jiva (jiva-tattva)

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