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atanu

A new fight? Dvaita-Advaita?

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dear guest,

 

your responses to atanu are very good.

pleas pick a user name.

that helps.

 

the debate above is the style of debate the vedic people have done many times in public and without any violenec and animocity. the rule was that one who realizes hat one sarguments/points were nto right or as good as teh opponent's surrenders and acpets teh oppenet ass his/her guru.

 

the intellectual and spiritual might of the hindus is displayed in the above dialogue.

 

we hindus need to use same non violent might first

to expose the invaded ideologies in india.

 

please pick a user name, dear guest,

so that i can give due respect to you.

 

 

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Guest guest

I mean an eternal Brahman.

 

You mean emodied Krishna.

 

“A quantitative difference of essence is impossible. Essence cannot become bigger or smaller.

••yes.. as many definitions of vedas regarding quantity it is symbolic... the essential concept is that paramatma is the source of the atma's existence

 

••no cit is cit... no quantity”

 

But an individual due to delusion thinks that the individual is bonded but actually is not bonded.

••no it is an external force.. maya.. we want to forget god and god gives forgetfulness through his energy.. maya”

 

 

Yes. You agree CIT is CIT. You agree God gives forgetfulness called Maya.

 

 

”Now, if the delusion is eternal, then you are wrong because then one can never be free of bondage of body. Bondage becomes eternal, which you say is not true.

••this is very true and clever... we are called technically "eternally conditioned", because if god or his representatives do not come in this world (yada, yada hi dharmasya..) to show us where we come from, and they do not give their mercy, the power to quit we remain here eternally, because karma calls other karma.”

 

 

Yes. You state that with God’s grace delusion that one is body and not CIT can be removed.

 

 

 

 

”So the Maya is Brahman’s will only.

••yes.. param brahman's energy... if there's an energy there's a person who gives and controls it”

 

 

Yes. You agree that Maya is HIS will only and controlled by HIM.

 

 

(Note: Maya has been described as a mirror which may reflect one object in many fashions to create diverse phenomenon, but in itself Maya is not variety).

••oh no problem, ----. maya means "what is not" so it is illusion ------ Reflection is a good definition because existence is real and maya distorts the real perception of existence. You are a soul and , by the maya's distortion, i see you as a material body.

 

 

Ok. You say: because existence is real and maya distorts the real perception of existence. You are a soul and by the maya's distortion, i see you as a material body.

 

Remember that souls are same CIT and CIT has no quantitative difference.

 

I remind you that personality exists at mind level (material level).

 

 

 

This is like a person saying in a dark room: “no chair exists” But when light comes, he sees that there indeed is a chair and he says: “a chair exists”. Then what is the truth. Is there a chair or there is no chair? Both cannot be true at same time.

••the first perception is false.. chair exists.... it's existence does not depend by the fact that i see it or not. China exist even if i never was in china

 

 

Ok. You agree that the first perception, due to darkness was wrong. As the light came along, we saw a chair in the room.

 

So, the truth is that there was a chair in the room all the time, whether the room was dark or lighted.

 

Similarly, whether we are deluded by Maya or not, the final truth is that there is ONE CIT. Since millions of souls are all CIT and quantitative difference cannot exist for CIT.

 

 

 

The truth is God. It is eternal. It cannot depend on removal of Maya.

••yes, my darkness is only my problem.. the existence of god does not depends by my perception.. i am not the source of god's existence

 

Ok. You say: yes, my darkness is only my problem.

 

You reinforce that a knowledge based on Maya is perception based and may be wrong

 

 

”What one perceives as truth on account of Maya cannot be true.

••yes.. but oneness and simultaneous difference is not possible to perceive in the maya's world as we have already said. But at the at the absolute level is not possible to avoid it. God has to be one with us because nothing is outside god, but god as to be also different because if plurality is in the relative world, it has to exist also in the absolute one”

 

 

 

You say: Yes. Then there is no difference of opinion. We both agree that the truth seen on removal of delusion that individuals have are CIT, is the final truth.

 

But, hey. No. I am bewildered now. You say: if plurality is in the relative world, it has to exist also in the absolute one” You have forgotten that you have said that plurality is not in CIT, which is the eternal thing.

 

 

 

I am lost. So, if something is apparently true in relative world due to HIS Maya, then that has also to be the truth in the Absolute world?

 

 

I say: What one perceives as truth on account of Maya cannot be true. You say: Yes. I say all souls are CIT. You say: Yes. I say: A quantitative difference of essence is impossible. You say: Yes.

 

When all souls are CIT and there cannot be any quantitative difference with respect to CIT, then where is the difference?

 

 

 

The main problem is that your faith says:

 

“……….but brahman contains personality, plurality and variety.”

 

 

So, your Brahman is changeable and not eternal. So, Brahman is Milk today and He becomes curd tomorrow. He dies also. He takes up new dress etc.

 

 

My Brahman is not like that. Brahman remains eternally same but projects all varieties. So the personality changes are Leela.

 

 

You have similarly said about personality:

 

 

‘----external personality... as an example if you work as a policeman you'll have an inner, intimate aspect and behaviour with your wife and sons.. and a more external role in the society as a policeman. ‘

 

 

You have also said about personality the following:

 

••at the transcendental level our behaviour can surely change because changement is a feature, and spirit cannot miss any feature.

 

 

You mean CIT that soul is changeable and not eternal and is personality based.

 

 

Do you mean such personality differences reside at soul level? The how is your soul eternal, which you agreed earlier?

 

 

If you attribute such changeable things to CIT and say that this difference will persist in Heaven, then heaven save us.

 

Your idea about soul does not match my idea of it.

 

Atanu

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Guest guest

I mean an eternal Brahman.

You mean emodied Krishna.

••Krsna is not "embodied".. he's not a soul put in a body.. he'sat cit ananda rupa.. eternal, conscious, blissful...body, name, lilas, companions and so on. And brahman is his effulgence (as said in gita)

 

Yes. You agree CIT is CIT. You agree God gives forgetfulness called Maya

••through maya, maya is the energy, the personified energy, and through her krsna gives the forgetfullness.. as stated in gita

 

Yes. You state that with God’s grace delusion that one is body and not CIT can be removed.

••different .. the illusion is that we believe to be material, mortal body.. if for his causeless mercy, when we have shown our desire through practicing sadhana under the guidance of a liberated guru, we have illusion removed we remember to live in a sac, cit , ananda form, body.... there's mortal bodies in mortal world and spiritual bodies in the spiritual world. Spirit cannot have less features than matter

 

Yes. You agree that Maya is HIS will only and controlled by HIM.

••god is the supreme controller "isvarah paramah krsna, satcitananda vigraha".."the supreme controller is the eternal, conscious, blissful form of krsna"

 

Remember that souls are same CIT and CIT has no quantitative difference.

••god is CIT, his parts and parcels are CIT because god gives to them consciousness, they are one, because god has to be omnipresent, but they are also different because difference is necessary for life, relationship, love

 

I remind you that personality exists at mind level (material level).

••this for material personality, but f there's a material one, you must have a spiritual one, because spirit is the origin of everything and spirit is not inferior to matter

 

Similarly, whether we are deluded by Maya or not, the final truth is that there is ONE CIT.

••your opinion unsupported by your demonstration... if matter is various , spirit is various... so one (sat)cit(ananda) is the source of existence of infinite (sat)cit(anandas)...

 

Since millions of souls are all CIT and quantitative difference cannot exist for CIT.

••but there's a cit who emanates and infinite cits who are emanated.. this is basically the symbolism of quantity..

 

Ok. You say: yes, my darkness is only my problem.

You reinforce that a knowledge based on Maya is perception based and may be wrong

••of course.. to believe that the absolute is beyond material variety.. is right, to believe that absolute has not spiritual variety, for me, for logic, scriptures, gita and many acharyas is maya

 

You say: if plurality is in the relative world, it has to exist also in the absolute one” You have forgotten that you have said that plurality is not in CIT, which is the eternal thing.

••please show it to me , maybe i can explain better.. god and parcels are both satcitananda, but the first is satcitananda because of his power.. parcels are satcitananda because this power is given by god

 

I am lost. So, if something is apparently true in relative world due to HIS Maya, then that has also to be the truth in the Absolute world?

••maya's world is not at all false, it is a perversion of spiritual world... like real world and prison or real world and hospital. In the jail you have some resemblance of the relationships and behaviours of the outside world, but simultaneously it is very different. The logic says that less is contained in more and not the opposite. So if in material world we have many, in spiritual world we cannot have one, we have more many... infinite

 

When all souls are CIT and there cannot be any quantitative difference with respect to CIT, then where is the difference?

••the consciousness of god is from himself, our consciousness is from god , not from ourselves.. it is stated in gita, it is demonstrated by the fact the when we have the desire to forget god, through maya, gives to us forgefulness... and when we develope, through religion, the desire to coe back in consciousness god makes us remember and come back in CIT

 

So, your Brahman is changeable and not eternal

••transcendentally dynamic... if dynamism, changement is in the relative, it is also in the absolute... but it inconceivably coexist with oneness, identity

 

He dies also

••death is illusory... brahman has no death

 

Brahman remains eternally same but projects all varieties. So the personality changes are Leela.

••in gita it is said that krsna person is the source of brahman impersonal.. so the role of source is exchanged, All the god's activities are leelas because they are not originated by needs, and they are sat cit ananda, not maya

 

You mean CIT that soul is changeable and not eternal and is personality based.

••if you have changement, progress, evolution in this world it is not possible to negate it in the spiritual one.. so there's eternity and evolution, simultaneously... radha brings a rose and a daisy to krsna, and krsna says "i like more the roses!".. and the next day radha brings roses.. eternity and evolution, this is life

 

Do you mean such personality differences reside at soul level?

••of course .. we are different now and in the absolute world, otherwise we will lose the possibility to relationate, to love

 

The how is your soul eternal, which you agreed earlier?

••variety is eternal, eternity is various

 

If you attribute such changeable things to CIT and say that this difference will persist in Heaven, then heaven save us.

•••heaven (a subject) save(an action) us (a subject that befre was not saved, now he's saved from heaven.. so we have a changement of condition)

 

Your idea about soul does not match my idea of it.

••it was clear from the beginning, otherwise what is the sense of all the discussion?

 

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Dear Guest Ji

 

 

”••Krsna is not "embodied".. he's not a soul put in a body.. he'sat cit ananda rupa.. eternal, conscious, blissful...body, name, lilas, companions and so on. And brahman is his effulgence (as said in gita) ••in gita it is said that krsna person is the source of brahman impersonal.. so the role of source is exchanged, All the god's activities are leelas because they are not originated by needs, and they are sat cit ananda, not maya”

 

 

OH, MY GOD. OH, MY GOD. ‘And brahman is his effulgence (as said in gita) ••in gita it is said that krsna person is the source of brahman impersonal’ (readers please check in the above para what he has written).

 

The eternal effulgence of Brahman comes from Krishna. This I did not know. This must be there in the Srutis and the Upanishads about which I do not know. And the sages who wrote Upanishads also did not know. Is it there in the Bhagavatam?

 

 

In Chapter VII of Gita: The way to the Supreme Spirit, Lord says:

 

The blessed Lord said: Sloka 3. The highest imperishable principle is Brahman. Its existence as embodied soul is called Adhyatma (my comments: the Adi Atma or Para Atman), and the offerings (into sacrificial fire) which causes the development of beings. Later he says: I am that as Adhyajna in this body.

 

Then in sloka 6 in the same chapter He states:

 

6. Thinking of whatever object at the time of death a person leaves the body, he attains, O son of Kunti, that very object, being constantly absorbed in its thought.

 

8. Therefore remember Me at all times and fight; with your mind and intellect devoted to Me, shall attain Me alone – there is no doubt about this.

 

Do some exercise and find out that the Lord also says that one who attains me does not ever return.

 

 

And you say that there the personality differences are eternal.

 

Huhh.

 

I could not find out where He is saying that He is above the one imperishable Brahman.

 

 

Oh, yes. I understand what you mean, The Brahma Loka: the world of the unmanifested beings (spirits with desires remaining) that take birth again and again. Yes, personalities exist at this level. And know that at Brahma Loka, the entities are not CIts. They have residual desires that causes repeated births.

 

 

Your understanding is very faulty and you don’t understand the difference of Brahma Loka – the abode of the creator Brahma and the Supreme Brahman, who is Hara that absorbs all differences and becomes Tamas only.

 

 

 

”••god is CIT, his parts and parcels are CIT because god gives to them consciousness, they are one, because god has to be omnipresent, but they are also different because difference is necessary for life, relationship, love ••this for material personality, but f there's a material one, you must have a spiritual one, because spirit is the origin of everything and spirit is not inferior to matter ••your opinion unsupported by your demonstration... if matter is various , spirit is various... so one (sat)cit(ananda) is the source of existence of infinite (sat)cit(anandas)... ••but there's a cit who emanates and infinite cits who are emanated.. this is basically the symbolism of quantity.. ••of course.. to believe that the absolute is beyond material variety.. is right, to believe that absolute has not spiritual variety, for me, for logic, scriptures, gita and many acharyas is maya ••please show it to me , maybe i can explain better.. god and parcels are both satcitananda, but the first is satcitananda because of his power.. parcels are satcitananda because this power is given by god”

 

 

 

Guest Ji, you are not talking about CIT at all. Personality does not adhere to CIT. You are not talking about CIT. You are talking about greed, desire, cruelty. Vanity etc. etc.

 

“Do you mean such personality differences reside at soul level?

••of course .. we are different now and in the absolute world, otherwise we will lose the possibility to relationate, to love ••if you have changement, progress, evolution in this world it is not possible to negate it in the spiritual one.. so there's eternity and evolution, simultaneously... radha brings a rose and a daisy to krsna, and krsna says "i like more the roses!".. and the next day radha brings roses.. eternity and evolution, this is life

The how is your soul eternal, which you agreed earlier?

••variety is eternal, eternity is various”

 

 

I love it. Guest ji says: of course .. we are different now and in the absolute world. He says, of course personality differences are eternal at soul level.

 

In Haras world, he will exist as a different personality. Have you heard about slap of Bhairav?

 

 

Let us again hear what the Lord says:

 

6. Thinking of whatever object at the time of death a person leaves the body, e attains, O son of Kunti, that very object, being constantly absorbed in its thought.

 

8. Therefore remember Me at all times and fight; with your mind and intellect devoted to Me, shall attain Me alone – there is no doubt about this.

 

 

 

“••through maya, maya is the energy, the personified energy, and through her krsna gives the forgetfullness.. as stated in gita

 

••the consciousness of god is from himself, our consciousness is from god , not from ourselves.. it is stated in gita, it is demonstrated by the fact the when we have the desire to forget god, through maya, gives to us forgefulness... and when we develope, through religion, the desire to coe back in consciousness god makes us remember and come back in CIT”

 

 

 

Oh, yes. The permanent differences in CIT, the giver of eternally different personality The from Maya. You stated it. Now, I remember.

 

 

 

“••maya's world is not at all false, it is a perversion of spiritual world... like real world and prison or real world and hospital. In the jail you have some resemblance of the relationships and behaviours of the outside world, but simultaneously it is very different. The logic says that less is contained in more and not the opposite. So if in material world we have many, in spiritual world we cannot have one, we have more many... infinite ••transcendentally dynamic... if dynamism, changement is in the relative, it is also in the absolute... but it inconceivably coexist with oneness, identity

 

 

 

 

My God. And now you state that Maya is eternal. Maya is eternal in general. But it is not eternal for all persons at all times. Through grace Maya is unveiled (you have stated it earlier. If Maya is eternal for all Jivas, all Jivas are eternally bonded since Maya will be eternal for all.

 

 

 

Your idea about soul is faulty. Your idea about Brahman is faulty. Your idea about Maya is faulty. All yopur arguments stem from misconcetion that I am talking about Brahma Loka and not the Supreme Brahman who is unmanifest and formless but is source of all personalities and is infinitely more besides. Lord Krishna is born of that Brahman through AdyYagna: the original sacrifice.

 

Ignorance is Biss.. And all the time the readers felt: What a grand discussion.

 

 

Huhh.

 

As further knowledge:

 

After showing to Arjuna the vision of the Universe, The Lord says in Chapter XI (The Vision of the Universal Form:

 

Sloka 32: I am the terrible Time (Kala), the destroyer of people ---------.

 

Now friends know about Mahakala that is beyond and beneath the time.

 

From MAITRAYANA-BRAHMAYA-UPANISHAD (A vaishnava Upanishad)

 

‘5. The Valakhilyas said: ‘O Saint, thou art the teacher, thou art the teacher. What thou hast said, has been properly laid up in our mind. Now answer us a further question: Agni, Vayu, Aditya, Time (kala) which is Breath (prana), Food (anna), Brahma, Rudra, Vishnu, thus do some meditate on one, some on another. Say which of these is the best for us.' He said to them:

6. These are but the chief manifestations of the highest, the immortal, the incorporeal Brahman. He who is devoted to one, rejoices here in his world (presence), thus he said. Brahman indeed is all this, and a man may meditate on, worship, or discard also those which are its chief manifestations. With these (deities) he proceeds to higher and higher worlds, and when all things perish, he becomes one with the Purusha, yes, with the Purusha.'

Note, when all things perish he becomes one with Purusha. Then again:

 

 

Further:

13. And thus it is said elsewhere: This food is the body of the blessed Vishnu, called Visvabhrit (all-sustaining). -------

14. And thus it has been said elsewhere: Food is the cause of all this, Time of food, and the Sun is the cause of Time.

Remember now friends, Sun is the cause of Time – Kala. And now the final stroke:

15 . There are two forms of Brahman, time (Kala) and non-time (Maha Kala). That which was before the (existence of the) sun is non-time and has no parts. That which had its beginning from the sun is Time and has parts. Of that which has parts, the year is the form, and from the year are born all creatures; -------

'Time ripens and dissolves all beings in the great Self, but he who knows into what Time itself is dissolved, he is the knower of the Veda.'

 

And what was before the SUN, before Kala?

“2. In the beginning darkness alone was this. It was in the Highest, and, moved by the Highest, it becomes uneven. Thus it becomes obscurity. Then this obscurity, being moved, becomes uneven. Thus it becomes goodness. Then this goodness, being moved, the essence flowed forth. This is that part (or state of Self) which is entirely intelligent, reflected in man (as the sun is in different vessels of water) knowing the body (kshetragna), attested by his conceiving, willing, and believing, it is Pragapati, called Visva. His manifestations have been declared before. Now that part of him which belongs to darkness (before Kala), that, O students, is he who is called Rudra. --------. He being one, becomes three, becomes eight, becomes eleven, becomes twelve, becomes infinite.”

So, friends, what was before Kala? What is Mahakala? Where is Kala absorbed at the end of a Kalpa?

 

 

Atanu

 

 

 

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