Jump to content
IndiaDivine.org
Sign in to follow this  
atanu

A new fight? Dvaita-Advaita?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

 

You do not seem to believe in spirit's dominance over matter

•••you are thinking that matter is superior to spirit having her variety and spirit only oneness

 

that is why you cannot become a Chinese even if you wanted.

••to became chinese has nothing spiritual... it is possible through reincarnation that is a phenomenon of the material world

 

Of course God only keeps you under illusion.

•••when one has no more arguments in discussions sometimes, like you, gives gratuitous bad judices not bearing opinion freedom and variety

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Dear Guest

 

 

 

"The part is from jiva's perspective and not from Shiva's perspective.

<=Shiva (or Vishnu.. let us not discuss now on who's the absolute isvara) cannot have less perspective than the jiva.. and if he have a perspective, there's one who sees and some who are seen.. so there's variety"

 

I have not said that God has the lesser perspective. I maintain that He is an author of songs that we are.

 

"There is no partitioning of Brahman, who is eternal, unchanging and same everywhere. Then, where from the parts come?

<=from param brahman.. the existence of parts is easy to verify, me and you are different, i don't know who you are and what you think so we are independent.. and if there's plurality in this mundane dimension, there's necessary also in the absolute one, because the absolute is greater than relative."

 

Like when you dream, your dream objects are real. Similarly non-eternal body and ego are temporal. In dream less sleep, you exist, but you do not see differentiated objects, why?

 

"Become one with him. Work with your soul for him.

<=if you become one the distinction is at end so no one can serve or work for anyone"

 

Oh. You have objection to this also? Work with your soul for Him means:Love, faith, and devotion. The pure Bhakti. Here duality exists. But with descent of grace by which the veil is removed one attains gyana yoga and merges with with Him. Merging is not synonymous with arrogance but just the reverse.

 

 

"Do not work for your small, fragile, and illusory egoity

<=yes.. be humble, do not develop your false ego so excessively that you think, merged with god, to have become god"

 

Please do not read what is not written. The goal is to merge and for that one has to be humble -- without even a trace of ego.

 

"You have become Rajasic and you have become Tamasic

<=god is transcendental... he's situated in pure sattva guna"

 

I know that every thing manifests from Him. I know that the Lord resides in my heart cave. I also know that, i fail to abide in him continously due to Prarabdha. I also know that mano nasha can help eternal abidance. I also know that it is not losing humbleness. You may disagree because your ego has taken control.

 

"You are Sat-Chit-Anand

<=sat cit anand means that god has features, actions, personality, world, companions, name... so god cannot be only featureless, like impersonal brahman"

 

Is there a law that states that Sat-Chit-Anand cannot be nirguna? Actually, a desire for colourful personality is a desire and that itself will keep salvation away.

 

"Thus I prostrate to Sat-Chit-Anand that is auspicious and alone remains on dissolution of forms and name

<=are you prostrating to your self? what's the use? if you are god why you need to practice, meditate and prostrate to remember to be god? is'nt god omnipotent?"

 

I am not prostrating to my self. I am prostrating to the Self and that includes you also. We all need to practice to kill ego and to attain mano nasha -- that is to submit unconditionally to His will alone. Dear friend I am not the doer -- to establish that knowledge i need to practice constantly.

 

"Let your grace never depart from me and my friends.

<=you and your friends are god... why search grace from outside? "

 

Humble Bhakti is required to see that one is not the doer (and one is not different). Humble Bhakti is the mother of Gyana yoga and that grace is granted to humble souls.

 

Dear guest, plainly speaking, you dualists are great Bhaktas, but you are most intolerant of other human beings who are equally pervaded by Him. If you don't realise this and do not become humble yourself, you will not attain His feet.

 

 

I remain your soul mate since you and i are both pervaded by Him. I have come to know it.

 

Atanu

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

A wave has no eternal existence.

••his little life is enough to us to make the comparison between a wave and the ocean... if you are more confortable you can say "the drop and the river" or the rock and the mountain, the cell and the body.... only examples who have a value as examples only

 

Similarly a bhakta like you has no eternal locus standii.

••again with undemonstrated dogmas.... i think that the illusion to be god is a position with little future, because we are not god and we do not remember it. God remembers, he's cit (conscious)

 

I said that we merge in Him and not He merges in us.

••merge means that the two subject lose individuality, this is the important part of the discussion... the logic is that variety is not missing in the spiritual realm, or spirit has less features than matter.. and it is not rational

 

But even then "Macrocosm is in the microcosm"

•••and both are full of variety like your body is a microcosm of cells and atoms and the universe is a macrocosm full of people like me and you... variety

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

To your following:

 

"••merge means that the two subject lose individuality, this is the important part of the discussion... the logic is that variety is not missing in the spiritual realm, or spirit has less features than matter.. and it is not rational"

 

Definitely spirit has infinitely more features than matter. But that does not mean that one cannot merge in that spirit. It also true that a desire for variety is a desire and detrimental.

 

The Rakta Bija that Durga killed is actually the tendency of mind to seek variety and that seeking expands like rakta bija. Meditation and nama japa is a break to the mind's seeking variety and attaching to temporal things to attain happiness.

 

The very basis of Hindu religion is that: Happiness is the goal and that one will not find happiness in the non-eternal objects.

 

Atanu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

I maintain that He is an author of songs that we are.

••agree.. there's an author and a song, a creator and a created, an emanator and an emanated... very true

 

Like when you dream, your dream objects are real. Similarly non-eternal body and ego are temporal.

••yes, material body and material ego are temporary.. but everything has a source in the spirit, so there's an eternal ego and an eternal body.. everything is in scriptures, there's descriptions of vaikunta, goloka..

 

In dream less sleep, you exist, but you do not see differentiated objects, why?

••i have not this phenomenon or i do not understand what you are saying, please explain to me..

 

Oh. You have objection to this also?

••of course, i object that if you become one with the served you cannot serve

 

Work with your soul for Him means:Love, faith, and devotion. The pure Bhakti. Here duality exists

••pure means "no defect"... if you say that there's a merging beyond the bhakti level, bhakti is not pure, complete, free from defects

 

But with descent of grace by which the veil is removed one attains gyana yoga and merges with with Him.

••this is again undemonstrated and illogic... because if lesser states of existence have variety, the variety has to exist also in the absolute. So there's plurality also in the most perfect state of existence. God and his associates.. united but simultaneously different. Everything well written in scriptures with plenty of details... in spirit there's infinite details

 

 

Merging is not synonymous with arrogance but just the reverse.

•••not surely humbleness... one wants to abandon his servant condition to became one with the served so he has no more to serve him

 

The goal is to merge and for that one has to be humble --

••i am not of this opinion... the humble (not that i am humble.. we are discussing of philosophy) want to serve not to be one with the served

 

I know that every thing manifests from Him. I know that the Lord resides in my heart cave.

••yes.. two subjects... you with your heart and god close to you also in your heart

 

You may disagree because your ego has taken control.

••i may disagree and simply you are saying what you think, not discussing with logic and serious arguments... and you give judgements.. i do not judge because i am not frightened by the fact that you are different from me and because i have some logic to answer your objections

 

Is there a law that states that Sat-Chit-Anand cannot be nirguna?

••logic... nirguna means NIR(=NO),, GUNA(=QUALITIES) and sat, eternal is a quality.... cit, conscious is a quality... ananda, blissful is anothe quality. So nirguna is not the ultimate reality. Not that nirguna brahman does not exists... simply there's something beyond.. paramatma and bhagavan (who are sat, cit, ananda.. saguna (=full of qualities))

 

Actually, a desire for colourful personality is a desire and that itself will keep salvation away

••why... we have personality, so there's not to desire anything.. and the secret is to offer our full and colourful personality as a service to god. Like arjuna does in the gita, initially he wants to annihilate himself to avoid sins and to find realization, then krishna convince him to offer his full gunas (qualities) and karma (activities) to Him attaining the full perfection of life. So personality is there, let us offer to god, not throw it away... very simple.

 

I am not prostrating to my self. I am prostrating to the Self and that includes you also

••if you prostrate, you are doing it because there's distinction from your self and the self to wich you prostrate... otherwise it is useless

 

Humble Bhakti is required to see that one is not the doer

••yes, bhakti is required to see that grace comes from god, not from us... and that never will be a moment when this flow of grace will not be necessary.. and giving and receiving grace is an activity, and an activity is there when there's variety of subjects.. not merging in ONE

 

you dualists are great Bhaktas, but you are most intolerant of other human beings who are equally pervaded by Him

••if one is intolerant towards his brothers he's a fanatic, not a great bhakta... bhakta means to feel himself a sinner while others are close to god. But a bhakta does not find logic that in the relative world we have variety of individuals and in the absolute not. We are eternal, god is eternal, the relationships with god are eternal... relationships means variety, simple

 

If you don't realise this and do not become humble yourself, you will not attain His feet.

••yes, thanks, but if ones falls in the mistake that he can merge with these lotus feet how can he obtain them becoming one with the lotus feet?

 

I remain your soul mate since you and i are both pervaded by Him

••me too, i am your brother because we are sons of the same father... but 'til now i am the brother with little nicer argumentations, and you are the brother with less argumentations and some gratuitous judice on me...

 

I have come to know it.

••so have a little more faith in intelligence and rationality that are given to us by sri bhagavan

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Do you want to mean that God does not control your Vidya and avidya?

 

of course, and a state of vidya is expressed also in a more solid logic in a discussion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Definitely spirit has infinitely more features than matter.

••so there's also more variety

 

But that does not mean that one cannot merge in that spirit.

••you can merge but it is not the ultimate realization because you, taking the oneness, you miss the variety... and it is not an eternal condition, soul wants to act, to serve, to love.. in merging activities, service, love are put aside, because there's no more variety of subjects

 

It also true that a desire for variety is a desire and detrimental.

••no.. why? and there's not to desire.. variety is there, in all the dimension.. adhibautika, adidaivika and adiatmika

 

Meditation and nama japa is a break to the mind's seeking variety and attaching to temporal things to attain happiness.

••of course but meditating means to put the mind on something, so there's variety.. who the subject and the object of meditation.. and japa(silent meditation) on the nama(name of god) means that there's who meditates, who is the object of meditation and that this object fo meditation is NAMA.. and if there's nama, there's also personality (=form, activities, relationship, associates, world and so on)

 

nothing of these things is material, temporal, bounding... everything transcendental, eternal, liberating

 

The very basis of Hindu religion is that: Happiness is the goal and that one will not find happiness in the non-eternal objects.

••and i agree from the start of the discussion even if you have made this little joke to say that aspiring to variety is aspiring to material things.... variety exists also in the absolute, and absolute is SAT... eternal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear guests,

 

If you are one -- find one answer. If you are many -- find your question and answer. All questions and answers are by Him.

 

“I maintain that He is an author of songs that we are.

••agree.. there's an author and a song, a creator and a created, an emanator and an emanated... very true”

 

I also agree. I am not singing myself. I also maintain that as a song I am not eternally condemned to be a song only. As a song, I will eventually merge with Him, if He wishes. You will differ here. But please do not feel that you are differing.

 

 

”Like when you dream, your dream objects are real. Similarly non-eternal body and ego are temporal.

••yes, material body and material ego are temporary.. but everything has a source in the spirit, so there's an eternal ego and an eternal body.. everything is in scriptures, there's descriptions of vaikunta, goloka..”

 

There’s an eternal ego of the Lord. The small egos of Jiva are not eternal. There is only one eternal ego. To think that Jiva’s egos are eternal is the basic mistake of Dualism. This is the position of Advaita.

 

 

”In dream less sleep, you exist, but you do not see differentiated objects, why?

••i have not this phenomenon or i do not understand what you are saying, please explain to me..”

 

This is very fundamental to understanding of Advaita. In sleep, when you are not dreaming, at that time the “I” exists. But there is no perception of the phenomenon ( the differentiated universe), only the object behind the phenomenon exists. Dualists believe that both the object (the source of phenomenon -- the Lord) and the phenomenon are true and eternal. Buddhists believe that only the ever changing phenomenon is the truth. The Advaita believes that it the Object that only becomes the phenomenon due to operation of sense organs. There is no objective difference between the Object (that is one and eternal) and the seemingly many phenomenon that we are. Advaita also believes that phenomenon is not eternal. It is like a rope (the object) being perceived as snake (subject) due to faulty perception (Sankara’s example).

 

 

”Oh. You have objection to this also?

••of course, i object that if you become one with the served you cannot serve”

 

 

Although I will not oppose you, since nice arguments do not take us to the goal, I will just state the belief of Advaita. Which is higher Goal? To serve or to merge is really debatable. I personally feel to serve is a higher goal since to merge means to seek a selfish Moksha for oneself. But there is another view also. Some say that servers are more selfish, since merging means giving up desires altogether. To merge, a Jiva has to give up all desires, worldly or spiritual. But one thing is sure, Ramana Maharshi, who gave up all desires merged with Him. And merged in the subtle substratum, He appears to Me and many of His devotees on daily basis or whenever you require Him or whenever He feels that I require Him. Devotees of Sai will tell you the same. Are they not serving the Lord? How can you, in so definite manner, claim that merging means a desire not serve Him anymore? Why do not you understand, if I serve you I am serving Him.

 

 

”Work with your soul for Him means: Love, faith, and devotion. The pure Bhakti. Here duality exists

••pure means "no defect"... if you say that there's a merging beyond the bhakti level, bhakti is not pure, complete, free from defects”

 

 

Yes, pure Bhaki means no defect. But duality persists and duality is good when mixed with pure thoughts. There is nothing to feel agitated about it. Advaita contains Dvaita within it. The problem is that Bush, a devout dualist and Bin Laden, another devout dualist do want to lose wars of ego.

 

 

”But with descent of grace by which the veil is removed one attains gyana yoga and merges with Him.

••this is again undemonstrated and illogic... because if lesser states of existence have variety, the variety has to exist also in the absolute. So there's plurality also in the most perfect state of existence. God and his associates.. united but simultaneously different. Everything well written in scriptures with plenty of details... in spirit there's infinite details.”

 

 

Your logic is American materialistic logic. See how Hindu sages live – nude. They do not have variety in there lives.

 

Spirit is the source of all variety and is actually the variety (as Advaita says that the one Objective Lord is the many splendor phenomenons). Like white light is the source of rainbow. So, should I seek the rainbow or the light, which is the source of Light? It is upto you. You may like to go the varieties but not to the source of the variety.

 

 

”Merging is not synonymous with arrogance but just the reverse.

•••not surely humbleness... one wants to abandon his servant condition to became one with the served so he has no more to serve him”

 

I have answered this above. I will repeat that I am not sure whether merging is less selfish or serving is less selfish?

 

 

”The goal is to merge and for that one has to be humble --

••i am not of this opinion... the humble (not that i am humble.. we are discussing of philosophy) want to serve not to be one with the served”

 

My belief and belief of all Advaitist’s is given above.

 

 

”I know that every thing manifests from Him. I know that the Lord resides in my heart cave.

••yes.. two subjects... you with your heart and god close to you also in your heart”

 

I will repeat that, when sense organs die, there is only one I – the object, the Lord. It one I that only becomes many splendors. I do not have any ego and I beg of you to not become sarcastic. What great sages could not decide, who are we to sarcastically cut each other? We can only state the facts and our positions. At this time, we don’t have to passionately defend or sarcastically put down the other view.

 

 

”You may disagree because your ego has taken control.

••i may disagree and simply you are saying what you think, not discussing with logic and serious arguments... and you give judgements.. i do not judge because i am not frightened by the fact that you are different from me and because i have some logic to answer your objections”

 

I disagree with you all the time without becoming a guest and I am not frightened at all.

 

 

Is there a law that states that Sat-Chit-Anand cannot be nirguna?

••logic... nirguna means NIR(=NO),, GUNA(=QUALITIES) and sat, eternal is a quality.... cit, conscious is a quality... ananda, blissful is anothe quality. So nirguna is not the ultimate reality. Not that nirguna brahman does not exists... simply there's something beyond.. paramatma and bhagavan (who are sat, cit, ananda.. saguna (=full of qualities))

 

Yes, I was wrong. Sat is Him. Other things are His qualities.

 

 

”Actually, a desire for colourful personality is a desire and that itself will keep salvation away

••why... we have personality, so there's not to desire anything.. and the secret is to offer our full and colourful personality as a service to god. Like arjuna does in the gita, initially he wants to annihilate himself to avoid sins and to find realization, then krishna convince him to offer his full gunas (qualities) and karma (activities) to Him attaining the full perfection of life. So personality is there, let us offer to god, not throw it away... very simple.”

 

If you are faithful, about what you have said above, then Bhaki is the highest kind of worship. But to insist, that Bhaki is the only way is dogmatic. Most advanced way is the most general way that will encompass everything. There are sages, past and present, who have brought in Muslims, Christians and others to Sanatana dharma, without using inducements or by claiming that certain Gods are demi Gods actually – they are very low in hierarchy. This is old feudalistic mentality that has by its exclusivity done harm.

 

 

”I am not prostrating to my self. I am prostrating to the Self and that includes you also

••if you prostrate, you are doing it because there's distinction from your self and the self to which you prostrate... otherwise it is useless”

 

It is not useless at all. I can absorb any amount of difference, criticism, sarcasm, and outright condemnation. Still, if I as a Jiva (I am not a Self realized Jiva), see you performing an excellent deed, I will applaud you like no one will. Because I know that you are the “I”. If I applaud the “I”, who becomes happy? Can you do it?

 

”Humble Bhakti is required to see that one is not the doer

••yes, bhakti is required to see that grace comes from god, not from us... and that never will be a moment when this flow of grace will not be necessary.. and giving and receiving grace is an activity, and an activity is there when there's variety of subjects.. not merging in ONE”

 

I will repeat. Merging is possible, only when, you have no requirement to seek grace any more. Still, you as subtle “I” can take up any embodied form -- and you can appear to devotees – not with the motive to help one devotee preferentially, since that will destroy the merging. Showing preference will pull down the Jiva from the merged state, to a server state again.

 

”you dualists are great Bhaktas, but you are most intolerant of other human beings who are equally pervaded by Him

••if one is intolerant towards his brothers he's a fanatic, not a great bhakta... bhakta means to feel himself a sinner while others are close to god. But a bhakta does not find logic that in the relative world we have variety of individuals and in the absolute not. We are eternal, god is eternal, the relationships with god are eternal... relationships means variety, simple”

 

Is there in Duality philosophy the concept of sin? In Advaita, there is no concept of sin. All is from That. And He has no sin. Jiva, due to ignorance may perceive certain facts in a way and commit an error, but that does not constitute sin. The greatest glory of Advaita is that its true and really faithful adherents get liberated from cause-effect (karma). They fully believe that it is Krishna who does everything. Jiva doing anything is just an appearance. A true Advaitist will say: dear Guest, the humble service that you think you are doing is done by “I” and for “I”.

 

 

”If you don't realise this and do not become humble yourself, you will not attain His feet.

••yes, thanks, but if ones falls in the mistake that he can merge with these lotus feet how can he obtain them becoming one with the lotus feet?”

 

Advaita and Dvaita are different with different goals. So let us leave it at that.

 

 

”I remain your soul mate since you and i are both pervaded by Him

••me too, i am your brother because we are sons of the same father... but 'til now i am the brother with little nicer argumentations, and you are the brother with less argumentations and some gratuitous judice on me...”

 

I accept all you say. You have better arguments. That makes “I” feel good. This Jiva truly feels good at your ability.

 

 

I have come to know it.

••so have a little more faith in intelligence and rationality that are given to us by sri bhagavan

 

 

”I” has infinite faith and intelligence, Boss.

 

Definitely spirit has infinitely more features than matter.

••so there's also more variety

Yes. Spirit has infinite more variety built within it. White light only becomes rainbow. Physics knows that matter has infinite energy. Physics also knows that so called vacuum that seems so drab, is actually the storehouse of unlimited energy and intelligence. So, should I pray to the source or to the manifested variety? The object (the source) has become the variety; at a single point of time also they are not different. If you are able to absorb your mind into your heart cave, you will see a golden bliss (the Turiya state). Even, in your sleep, when you do not dream, your mind is absorbed. But you exist and still do not see any variety. A Self Realised person who has gained the golden bliss (that you say is drab) is the variety. He does not have to look here and there. In fact, such people spread around variety and happiness.

 

”But that does not mean that one cannot merge in that spirit.

••you can merge but it is not the ultimate realization because you, taking the oneness, you miss the variety... and it is not an eternal condition, soul wants to act, to serve, to love.. in merging activities, service, love are put aside, because there's no more variety of subjects”

 

I truly do not know what the ultimate realization is. When I know, I will come back. I will believe you till then.

 

”It also true that a desire for variety is a desire and detrimental.

••no.. why? and there's not to desire.. variety is there, in all the dimension.. adhibautika, adidaivika and adiatmika”

 

 

I have already stated that I do not know greater goal is which? – To serve or to get merged? But I want to merge; so that I can serve you without ahankar.

 

 

”Meditation and nama japa is a break to the mind's seeking variety and attaching to temporal things to attain happiness.

••of course but meditating means to put the mind on something, so there's variety.. who the subject and the object of meditation.. and japa(silent meditation) on the nama(name of god) means that there's who meditates, who is the object of meditation and that this object fo meditation is NAMA.. and if there's nama, there's also personality (=form, activities, relationship, associates, world and so on)

 

nothing of these things is material, temporal, bounding... everything transcendental, eternal, liberating”

 

True meditator when puts up a question: Who is meditating? The answer comes: “I” is meditating. It is stupendous. You cannot appreciate it, till you know it for yourself. Similarly, with nama japa. Namdeva tells that only the name remains, only Keshava, Keshava remains. The devotee vanishes. Why should I not believe Namdeva, when this Jiva has also experienced the same, albeit in a smaller scale? I love Maharshi Ramana, so most often, my body disappears and Maharshi’s glowing face remains. So, I believe that total absorption is possible. Now, whether that is the ultimate goal or not that I do not know. I also need not know. But if you tell me the day you know, I will be glad.

 

 

”The very basis of Hindu religion is that: Happiness is the goal and that one will not find happiness in the non-eternal objects.

••and i agree from the start of the discussion even if you have made this little joke to say that aspiring to variety is aspiring to material things.... variety exists also in the absolute, and absolute is SAT... eternal “

 

 

It’s a good feeling that you agree at least on some point. I don’t say that aspiring to variety is aspiring for material things. What I say is: the source (the object) and variety are the same. The source is the source after all. In whatever fashion you - the Jiva wants to serve That, or merge with That, is His choice only. Only Jiva appears to be deciding on the choice. This is the central teaching of Gita. I hope you will not disagree.

 

Your dasa

 

Atanu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

I also maintain that as a song I am not eternally condemned to be a song only. As a song, I will eventually merge with Him, if He wishes. You will differ here. But please do not feel that you are differing.

••a song is different from the singer... i differ , i feel that i am differing, where's the problem

 

There’s an eternal ego of the Lord. The small egos of Jiva are not eternal

•••in the lord there's anything not eternal, jivas are parts and parcels of the lord so they are eternal

 

There is only one eternal ego.

••no... otherwise we had it also in the material world.. spiritual world has'nt the variety? is it worse than material one? illogic

 

To think that Jiva’s egos are eternal is the basic mistake of Dualism. This is the position of Advaita.

••this is a position, a faith, if you speak with someone you have to explain it logically and scripturally

 

This is very fundamental to understanding of Advaita. In sleep, when you are not dreaming

••science says that we dream all night, the thing is that we do not remember. So if you want to demonstrate that there's moments without individual existence this is not the right way

 

Although I will not oppose you, since nice arguments do not take us to the goal

••so why you speak?

 

To merge, a Jiva has to give up all desires, worldly or spiritual.

•••personality is desire, so there's nothing bad in desire... the more advanced way to desire is to desire the good of the beloved without wanting any advantage for ourselves. This i sbakti, desire without any interest, desire with detachment

 

Devotees of Sai will tell you the same. Are they not serving the Lord?

••if Sai is the Lord they are serving the lord.. otherwise not, they are cheated serving a cheater

 

How can you, in so definite manner, claim that merging means a desire not serve Him anymore?

••because for serving we have to be two... you are hungry and i bring to you a chapati.. if we are one who serves who?

 

There is nothing to feel agitated about it

••no agitation, i do not want to put everyone under my theory... you maybe.

 

Advaita contains Dvaita within it.

••i do not think so... advaita destroys differences, does not concile them.. no problem for me but it is different conception not a conciliation

 

The problem is that Bush, a devout dualist and Bin Laden, another devout dualist do want to lose wars of ego.

••all the discussion are about advaitins or hindus who want to reunite forcibly everything under the same flag.... dvaitins and vaishnavas (acynthia beda abeda) are happy to be peacefully distinct

 

Your logic is American materialistic logic. See how Hindu sages live – nude.

••not a nice answer, only insults, materialistic.... try to explain your idea instead of insult (i know plenty of sages dressed), the funny thing is that you are discussing with me treating me as a fanatic and you behave as a fanatic, intolerant and insulting

 

Spirit is the source of all variety and is actually the variety

••yes.. and i say that this variety is eternal... sat, cit, ananda

 

Like white light is the source of rainbow. So, should I seek the rainbow or the light, which is the source of Light?

••in the light phenomenon the whit light is the source, in the spirit both rainbow, plurality of colors, and white light, union of colours, are eternal... both are ever existing.. not that rainbow at a certain point disappears

 

I will repeat that, when sense organs die, there is only one I – the object, the Lord

••your belief

 

At this time, we don’t have to passionately defend or sarcastically put down the other view.

••if you call sarcasm the fact that i am logically explaining my beliefs... i am sarcastic, but it is you that are you saying it

 

Yes, I was wrong. Sat is Him. Other things are His qualities.

••so if there's Him and qualities, you have variety, so there's variety in the absolute... and because all the existences comes from the qualities (=shakti, energies) of the lord, individuality is eternal

 

But to insist, that Bhaki is the only way is dogmatic.

••no... dogmatic is if there's no demonstration and discussion, i bring logical demonstrations and i have no problem to be different and first of all i have no problems if you think different. Variety, i like it.

 

Most advanced way is the most general way that will encompass everything.

••in my opinion advaita do not encompass, it destroys... for me satcitananda vigraha of the lord is absolute (for opinion and conception, not dogma), to say that's something beyond for me is not encompassing, it is blasphemy. Again i have no problem with differences, but there's differences.. i have problems with who wants to kill differences

 

Because I know that you are the “I”. If I applaud the “I”, who becomes happy? Can you do it?

•••if i applaude someone i have no problem to applaude him knowing that him is not me

 

Showing preference will pull down the Jiva from the merged state, to a server state again.

••and this is our eternal duty, to serve the supreme... in this world we serve being bounded by the karma laws, in the absolute one we serve the supreme in loving mood

 

Is there in Duality philosophy the concept of sin? In Advaita, there is no concept of sin. All is from That. And He has no sin.

••yes, sin is a limited perception.. sin is simply not to be aware that we are parts and parcels of sri bhagavan united but different at the same time in an eternal loving relatioship

 

They fully believe that it is Krishna who does everything. Jiva doing anything is just an appearance. A true Advaitist will say: dear Guest, the humble service that you think you are doing is done by “I” and for “I”.

••and i will answer that being variety eternal too (as you too have said... SAT is the lord... CIT and ANANDA are attributes) the service is ever "i" for "him"

 

Advaita and Dvaita are different with different goals. So let us leave it at that.

••this is the thing i like to hear.... friends, brothers but different

 

To serve or to get merged? But I want to merge; so that I can serve you without ahankar.

••merge means to be one... one lonely... how is it possible to serve?

 

Namdeva tells that only the name remains, only Keshava, Keshava remains. The devotee vanishes. Why should I not believe Namdeva, when this Jiva has also experienced the same, albeit in a smaller scale?

••do what you want, for me it is not logical and i have plenty of examples of devotees and master who teach that if one meditates on keshava he remains he and keshava remains keshava... keshava is eternal, me is eternal, we are unite in an eternal relationship

 

What I say is: the source (the object) and variety are the same.

••me too, i think that the existence is eternal and various.. eternally

 

Only Jiva appears to be deciding on the choice. This is the central teaching of Gita. I hope you will not disagree.

••i disagree that gita says that merging and not merging is the same thing ... krsa says "surrender to me" so there's one who surrenders and krsna to surrender to

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Important answer to old post

“I maintain that He is an author of songs that we are.

••agree.. there's an author and a song, a creator and a created, an emanator and an emanated... very true”

 

Hello ji,

 

Namaskaram,

 

Siva-Ramana has just now told me: “Atanu you indeed are a song and akin to a wave on the ocean you have acquired a causal and material body. But sheathed within the body you indeed are what I am. Ocean is water and wave is water. My essential nature is Vishnu – the pure effulgent light and sheathed within your causal body you are That. Right now, you are Me. To experience that, is not that difficult as your manas may assume. Just dissolve your manas and see My essence -- the effulgence glowing. Yes, do not add any new desire to strengthen the causal body.”

 

 

 

Answer to new post

 

I also maintain that as a song I am not eternally condemned to be a song only. As a song, I will eventually merge with Him, if He wishes. You will differ here. But please do not feel that you are differing.

..a song is different from the singer... i differ , i feel that i am differing, where's the problem.

 

Problem is that Sri Krishna has said emphatically that jiva is not the doer. Why he is not the doer? When he seems to be doing everything with his hands or his manas, then why the jiva is not the doer?

 

There's an eternal ego of the Lord. The small egos of Jiva are not eternal

...in the lord there's anything not eternal, jivas are parts and parcels of the lord so they are eternal.

 

Oh. You have agreed that jives are part and parcel of the Lord. Then where is the second one. A car’s battery does not make another car. There cannot me more than one soul and one will. Krishna has said it.

 

There is only one eternal ego.

..no... otherwise we had it also in the material world.. spiritual world has'nt the variety? is it worse than material one? Illogic

 

Why should having no separate existence be worse? Shri Krishna has already said everything is within me. Other things existing within Shri Krishna will not make another Shri Krishna. There is one Shri Krishna who is one without a second. Rudras and Vishnu are in Him. I am in Him. You are in Him.

 

To think that Jiva's egos are eternal is the basic mistake of Dualism. This is the position of Advaita.

..this is a position, a faith, if you speak with someone you have to explain it logically and scripturally

 

Oh, Raghu. Again scriptures? Within Shri Krishna all other things occur. They come and go. The parts are not eternal.

 

This is very fundamental to understanding of Advaita. In sleep, when you are not dreaming

..science says that we dream all night, the thing is that we do not remember. So if you want to demonstrate that there's moments without individual existence this is not the right way

 

No. Science knows that there is a deep sleep when our brain waves are quiescent and we don’t dream. In fact, this part of the sleep is regenerating. Meditation is similar but much more advanced since one remains conscious and still loses the sense of the phenomenon. Doctors say that even incurable and chronic diseases (of body and mind) can be controlled and cured. But Siva says do not do any sankalp during meditation.

 

Although I will not oppose you, since nice arguments do not take us to the goal

..so why you speak?

 

I said that I will not oppose. Did I say that I will not speak?

 

 

To merge, a Jiva has to give up all desires, worldly or spiritual.

...personality is desire, so there's nothing bad in desire... the more advanced way to desire is to desire the good of the beloved without wanting any advantage for ourselves. This i sbakti, desire without any interest, desire with detachment

 

Dear, probably, you are a young fellow. Desire itself is attachment. But desire for God is the only good desire. Siva and Visnu do not have desire. They have transcended their desires. They work only for others (in dual sense). That is why their personalities are so powerful. In modern day, sages: Rama Krishna, Ramana; scientists Einstein and Oppenheimer, statesman: Gandhi and Nelson Mandela all prove that merging the ego with a very large cause or group enhances and does not diminish the personality. Personality is not real but is an insignia of one’s worth. To enhance the worth, one dissolves the ego.

 

Devotees of Sai will tell you the same. Are they not serving the Lord?

..if Sai is the Lord they are serving the lord.. otherwise not, they are cheated serving a cheater

 

Oh. God. Sai devotees are you listening? Sai, I am sorry -- I should not have dragged you in.

 

How can you, in so definite manner, claim that merging means a desire not to serve Him anymore?

..because for serving we have to be two... you are hungry and i bring to you a chapati.. if we are one who serves who?

 

Not necessary. I can serve myself a chapatti. I can feed Vishnu who is in me.

 

There is nothing to feel agitated about it

..no agitation, i do not want to put everyone under my theory... you maybe.

 

I reciprocate.

 

Advaita contains Dvaita within it.

..i do not think so... advaita destroys differences, does not concile them.. no problem for me but it is different conception not a conciliation

 

Not conciliation but encompassing. Laws of Relativity of Einstein encompass the laws of Newton also.

 

The problem is that Bush, a devout dualist and Bin Laden, another devout dualist do want to lose wars of ego.

..all the discussion are about advaitins or hindus who want to reunite forcibly everything under the same flag.... dvaitins and vaishnavas (acynthia beda abeda) are happy to be peacefully distinct

 

Please, I will beg of you. No one is forcing. Please, if you think, I am forcing, I will stop immediately.

 

Your logic is American materialistic logic. See how Hindu sages live - nude.

..not a nice answer, only insults, materialistic.... try to explain your idea instead of insult (i know plenty of sages dressed), the funny thing is that you are discussing with me treating me as a fanatic and you behave as a fanatic, intolerant and insulting

 

You are hurt. I can see that. My intention was not that. I request your pardon. But, I will have to stop posting altogether. Or, you may declare your name, so that I do not enter into debate with you.

 

Spirit is the source of all variety and is actually the variety

..yes.. and i say that this variety is eternal... sat, cit, ananda

 

Variety is eternal. But not the same variety. A car will last many years but a quite a few batteries will come and go.

 

Like white light is the source of rainbow. So, should I seek the rainbow or the light, which is the source of Light?

..in the light phenomenon the whit light is the source, in the spirit both rainbow, plurality of colors, and white light, union of colours, are eternal... both are ever existing.. not that rainbow at a certain point disappears

 

See the answer above. Rainbow occurs at different places and of different sizes but the white light never changes its nature.

 

I will repeat that, when sense organs die, there is only one I - the object, the Lord

..your belief

 

Not my belief. Experience of several thousand sages.

 

At this time, we don't have to passionately defend or sarcastically put down the other view.

..if you call sarcasm the fact that i am logically explaining my beliefs... i am sarcastic, but it is you that are you saying it

 

Ok. You are logical.

 

Yes, I was wrong. Sat is Him. Other things are His qualities.

..so if there's Him and qualities, you have variety, so there's variety in the absolute... and because all the existences comes from the qualities (=shakti, energies) of the lord, individuality is eternal

 

Yes the absolute and the variety are the one and same thing. That’s what Advaita says and which I tend to believe because of better logic and experience.

 

But to insist, that Bhaki is the only way is dogmatic.

..no... dogmatic is if there's no demonstration and discussion, i bring logical demonstrations and i have no problem to be different and first of all i have no problems if you think different. Variety, i like it.

 

That is what the truth is. Variety you like. It need not be universal. I see more pleasure in the underlying unity. Actually, both Advaita and Dvaita are the ways of One supreme. Which is correct for you and which is correct for me? That He will choose. We are just discussing. Shree Rama Krishna did not like impersonal Advaita but Vivekanda liked it. I felt closer to emotional Rama Krishna in the beginning. So, it is actually God’s way to give many paths to suit many types of devotees. Please be clear in your mind, Advaita is useless, if one does not do Dvaita properly. It may be disastrous.

 

 

Most advanced way is the most general way that will encompass everything.

..in my opinion advaita do not encompass, it destroys... for me satcitananda vigraha of the lord is absolute (for opinion and conception, not dogma), to say that's something beyond for me is not encompassing, it is blasphemy. Again i have no problem with differences, but there's differences.. i have problems with who wants to kill differences

 

True and false. For a devotee who has perfected, through Dvaita, unselfish devotion to God and also to fellow beings, Advaita is the next step. But jumping before perfecting unselfishness will be disastrous. This all sages emphasize. Ramana says that Bhakti is the mother of jnana.

 

Because I know that you are the "I". If I applaud the "I", who becomes happy? Can you do it?

...if i applaude someone i have no problem to applaude him knowing that him is not me

 

Ok, very good. But you never applaud me. I feel sad.

 

Showing preference will pull down the Jiva from the merged state, to a server state again.

..and this is our eternal duty, to serve the supreme... in this world we serve being bounded by the karma laws, in the absolute one we serve the supreme in loving mood

 

 

Ok. Love is all. Jnana also leads to love. Love for all, since I see Lord in everything.

 

 

Is there in Duality philosophy the concept of sin? In Advaita, there is no concept of sin. All is from That. And He has no sin.

..yes, sin is a limited perception.. sin is simply not to be aware that we are parts and parcels of sri bhagavan united but different at the same time in an eternal loving relationship

 

Ok.

 

 

They fully believe that it is Krishna who does everything. Jiva doing anything is just an appearance. A true Advaitist will say: dear Guest, the humble service that you think you are doing is done by "I" and for "I".

..and i will answer that being variety eternal too (as you too have said... SAT is the lord... CIT and ANANDA are attributes) the service is ever "i" for "him"

 

 

The I you have used is small i. It is “I” that I use. Dear guest, you have to believe me, until you experience, what “I” is. There is no me, there is “I” only. Then only, you will know all doer ship really vests with “I” and not with the small i.

 

 

Advaita and Dvaita are different with different goals. So let us leave it at that.

..this is the thing i like to hear.... friends, brothers but different

 

Ok.

 

 

To serve or to get merged? But I want to merge; so that I can serve you without ahankar.

..merge means to be one... one lonely... how is it possible to serve?

 

 

Not lonely. You have everything within you. How can you be lonely?

 

 

Namdeva tells that only the name remains, only Keshava, Keshava remains. The devotee vanishes. Why should I not believe Namdeva, when this Jiva has also experienced the same, albeit in a smaller scale?

..do what you want, for me it is not logical and i have plenty of examples of devotees and master who teach that if one meditates on keshava he remains he and keshava remains keshava... keshava is eternal, me is eternal, we are unite in an eternal relationship

 

 

Ok. I will believe what I believe. You believe what you believe. Both are equally useful, because they are God’s way only.

 

 

What I say is: the source (the object) and variety are the same.

..me too, i think that the existence is eternal and various.. eternally

 

 

I have spoken about it. Variety is eternal along with the one Object, but one variety is not eternal. Numerous come and go.

 

 

Only Jiva appears to be deciding on the choice. This is the central teaching of Gita. I hope you will not disagree.

..i disagree that gita says that merging and not merging is the same thing ... krsa says "surrender to me" so there's one who surrenders and krsna to surrender to

 

 

My English mislead you. I said: The central teaching is that Krishna, who is One without a second does everything. To understand that He does everything surrender is absolutely essential. But He has provided us with Advaita also. How can we throw that away? He gave it with a purpose. He also gave Dvaita to us with purpose.

 

 

 

Atanu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

then why the jiva is not the doer?

•••because he does everything through krsna inspiration and power... but this is not a demonstration that the individuality is an illusion

 

Then where is the second one. A car’s battery does not make another car.

•••why? battery is battery and car is car, car contains battery, battery is simultaneously in the existence of the car and he has an existence on his own. In my country a battery is 100 dollars, the worst car is 10.000 dollars. Car is a thing, battery is another.

 

There cannot me more than one soul and one will. Krishna has said it.

••no... he says "think of me", "surrender to me"... two subjects.. krsna and the worshipper of krsna.

 

Why should having no separate existence be worse?

••because many features are more than no feature.. so the absolute cannot have less features than the relative world that is his emanation. If i have zero dollars i cannot give 1000 dollars to you.

 

Shri Krishna has already said everything is within me.

••withins means that there's krsna, there's the everything and there's the "inside" condition... and krsna makes an action.. he say.. so actions, conditions, place (inside), plurality, variety

 

There is one Shri Krishna who is one without a second. Rudras and Vishnu are in Him. I am in Him. You are in Him.

••if you enter in my home, i cannot say that you become my home, you are in my home.. three subjects, the home, me and you.. united by the fact to be inside but simultaneously separated

 

Within Shri Krishna all other things occur. They come and go. The parts are not eternal.

••krsna is eternal, complete (purna), he's eternal, his parts are eternal.. he do not lose anything, never

 

No. Science knows that there is a deep sleep when our brain waves are quiescent and we don’t dream.

•••no problems... quiescent is an activity, because you are regaining strenght... also coma is different from death.. so again you cannot use sleep as an example of non existence

 

In fact, this part of the sleep is regenerating.

••of course, life, action, activity, personality, individuality... even in the deep sleeping

 

I said that I will not oppose. Did I say that I will not speak?

•••there's no problem for me, you are free to oppose and contraddict, i am very happy to speak of spiritual subjects.. so speak, oppose, do wathever you want freely.. i do appreciate.

 

Dear, probably, you are a young fellow

••thanks for the "young"

 

Desire itself is attachment. But desire for God is the only good desire.

••and i was speaking of it.. desire without any selfish interest for the happiness of god

 

Siva and Visnu do not have desire. They have transcended their desires.

••this is right under material point of view, they do not have transcended, they never had material desires. But desire is present also in the spiritual world in his pure manifestation, otherwise how can he exist in the mundane world? so krsna desires radha, siva goes to yasoda ma desiring to see krsna. Of course this kind of desire has nothing to do with our mundane desires, it is impossible to xplain... but indeed it's a desire, transcendental desire

 

merging the ego with a very large cause or group enhances and does not diminish the personality

•••merging the ego? where's merging? say dedicating themselves to a cause... big individuals, big personalities, strong charachter and ideals and desires to fulfill.. the desire to make the good to others... big ego devoted to big ideals.

 

Oh. God. Sai devotees are you listening? Sai, I am sorry -- I should not have dragged you in.

••dragged or not dragged to serve someone is not ever serving god, so serving sai baba is serving god if he's god.. otherwise is serving a simple jiva

 

Not necessary. I can serve myself a chapatti.

•••so two subject, you and chapati.. if there's oneness you lose any distiction, action, desire, feature so oneness means "no chapati"

 

Not conciliation but encompassing

••••to encompass:v.tr.

"surround or form a circle about, esp. to protect or attack.

contain"

no, advaita does not encompass bhakti, he does not contains bhakti, dvaita, acynthia beda abeda (that is what i practice, not xactly dvaita).. and i have said in many ways. So no problem, i am your friend but i am not inside your religion

 

You are hurt. I can see that. My intention was not that. I request your pardon. But, I will have to stop posting altogether. Or, you may declare your name, so that I do not enter into debate with you.

•••you can debate with me eternally, i have already said that discussions about spiritual reality are highly welcome by me...

 

Variety is eternal. But not the same variety

••yes variety is dynamic... but variety remains, and we have introduced another non advaita concept.. dynamism, moving, action.... action comes from desire, desire comes from variety

 

I will repeat that, when sense organs die, there is only one I - the object, the Lord

..your belief

Not my belief. Experience of several thousand sages.

•••i also am not an exponent of a little religion made by me with me as only adept /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Yes the absolute and the variety are the one and same thing. That’s what Advaita says and which I tend to believe because of better logic and experience.

•••ok so if the absolute and variety are the same thing.. the absolute is various, there's plurality, god and jivas and so on... absolute means "nothing beyond", or "the source of everything else"

 

For a devotee who has perfected, through Dvaita, unselfish devotion to God and also to fellow beings, Advaita is the next step

••your opinion... in bhakti this is considered the worst mistake... i develope devotion to god and i live eternally in this devotion, if at a certain point i change believing that i have been devoted to me, for my conception this is maya, not advancement. If the absolute and highest reality is to be united in love with god, to change for advaita is to be consider to lose this relationship. If i become one, there's no one else to love... there's not even love, only a boring and sad oneness.. so to consider advaita as a developement of bhakti is very strange

 

Not lonely. You have everything within you. How can you be lonely?

•••because every thing means "many things"... one is not many.... and one is alone

 

Ok. I will believe what I believe. You believe what you believe. Both are equally useful,

••the difference is that i gave some logical demonstration... not only belief

 

The central teaching is that Krishna, who is One without a second does everything

•••yes, he does everything directly or through his parts and parcels that are one in quality with him and different in quantity. He's infinite, we are infinitesimal... both eternal. Because if the whole's eternal, his parts have to be eternal too

 

But He has provided us with Advaita also. How can we throw that away?

•••i respect you, i have my opinion, i do not think that advaita will bring you to the realization of the absolute, but there's no problem. Even if i think to be better situated intellectually it does not means that i am really advanced as a spiritualist. All my messages come out when someone says that advaita is the perfection and the conclusion of all paths. I do not agree because i think, and i try to demonstrate, that advaita is one of the concepts, not the more evolute, or the conclusion or the encompassing and so on.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Dear Guest (Raghu raman ?)

 

Atha atah Brahma-jijnasa.

 

Om Atha, Om Atha, Om Atha

 

then why the jiva is not the doer?

•••because he does everything through krsna inspiration and power... but this is not a demonstration that the individuality is an illusion

 

What is inspiration? Is it just the good thoughts of him, or is it something else?

 

Kena Upanishad:

By whose commands this mind works? By whose will the life's breath circulates? Who is responsible for man's speech? What intelligence does lead the eyes and the ears?

It is the ear of the ear, the mind of the mind, the speech of the speech. Also the life of all life, and the eye of the eye. The wise abandon the sensory world and become immortal.

There the eyes cannot travel, nor speech nor mind. Nor do we know how to explain it to the disciples. It is other than the known and beyond the unknown. So were we taught by our ancients.

That which the speech cannot reveal, but causes the speech to flow, know that alone to be Brahman, not this whom people worship here (through mantras).

That which the mind cannot conceptualize, but by which the mind does conceptualize, know that alone to be Brahman. Not the one whom people worship here.

That which the eye cannot see, but by which the eyes are able to see, know that alone to be Brahman. Not this whom people worship here.

 

And who claims that individual is an illusion? That Buddhists say. Shankara says that individuals are very much true, only that all individuals are passing show of one Sat.

 

It is Shankara who only could prove, Buddhists and Jainas were preaching incomplete philosophy. The whole world rewmembers him and acknowledges him for that deed.

 

 

 

Within Shri Krishna all other things occur. They come and go. The parts are not eternal.

••krsna is eternal, complete (purna), he's eternal, his parts are eternal.. he do not lose anything, never

 

You are not eternal. Can you prove that you were there before you took birth? Please prove it?

 

 

No. Science knows that there is a deep sleep when our brain waves are quiescent and we don’t dream.

•••no problems... quiescent is an activity, because you are regaining strenght... also coma is different from death.. so again you cannot use sleep as an example of non existence

 

 

During sleep, consciousness of small ego sleeps, but brain works. In coma, brain pauses altogether.

 

 

In fact, this part of the sleep is regenerating.

••of course, life, action, activity, personality, individuality... even in the deep sleeping

 

 

Do you see your personality in your deep sleep? That would indeed be a new scientific discovery.

 

 

Desire itself is attachment. But desire for God is the only good desire.

••and i was speaking of it.. desire without any selfish interest for the happiness of god

 

Yes we happily agree.

 

 

Siva and Visnu do not have desire. They have transcended their desires.

••this is right under material point of view, they do not have transcended, they never had material desires. But desire is present also in the spiritual world in his pure manifestation, otherwise how can he exist in the mundane world? so krsna desires radha, siva goes to yasoda ma desiring to see krsna. Of course this kind of desire has nothing to do with our mundane desires, it is impossible to xplain... but indeed it's a desire, transcendental desire

 

Causal body, which is from God only, develops a material body to fulfill desires. To have contacts with so called others. So, I repeat that One is many. But many do not exist when you see the One. And when you see many, then you don’t see the One. Only Shankara can refute this logic of Buddhists. When you see many can you see the One?

 

Transcendental desire only has lead to a caussal and material body. Whose desire it is?

 

 

merging the ego with a very large cause or group enhances and does not diminish the personality

•••merging the ego? where's merging? say dedicating themselves to a cause... big individuals, big personalities, strong charachter and ideals and desires to fulfill.. the desire to make the good to others... big ego devoted to big ideals.

 

You do not understand what Ego is. Ego is the sense of I-Me-Mine ness attached to body and mind. How can such a person who is attached to his body only, submerge his activities towards goal of another? You do not have your understanding correct.

 

 

 

Not necessary. I can serve myself a chapatti.

•••so two subject, you and chapati.. if there's oneness you lose any distiction, action, desire, feature so oneness means "no chapati"

 

 

Chapatti is “I”

 

 

 

You are hurt. I can see that. My intention was not that. I request your pardon. But, I will have to stop posting altogether. Or, you may declare your name, so that I do not enter into debate with you.

•••you can debate with me eternally, i have already said that discussions about spiritual reality are highly welcome by me...

 

No. I will rather meditate eternally. You can tell me about your beautiful experiences and I will tell you when I have any.

 

 

Variety is eternal. But not the same variety

••yes variety is dynamic... but variety remains, and we have introduced another non advaita concept.. dynamism, moving, action.... action comes from desire, desire comes from variety

 

 

Advaita is most dynamic. What you are talking about is Buddhism. Shankara never denies the dynamic phenomenon. He says it is the dynamic phenomenon that only proves existence of One eternal thing. Please read all sides. I think I am older than you and as an elder brother I will request that please understand the other view first to defend your view.

 

 

 

 

For a devotee who has perfected, through Dvaita, unselfish devotion to God and also to fellow beings, Advaita is the next step

••your opinion... in bhakti this is considered the worst mistake... i develope devotion to god and i live eternally in this devotion, if at a certain point i change believing that i have been devoted to me, for my conception this is maya, not advancement. If the absolute and highest reality is to be united in love with god, to change for advaita is to be consider to lose this relationship. If i become one, there's no one else to love... there's not even love, only a boring and sad oneness.. so to consider advaita as a developement of bhakti is very strange

 

 

Again I will say: opinion of several thousand sages. You will say: I belong to a dinasty (sic). That’s OK. But prove that you will eternally love your God. Who will do it after your body goes? Because you think that ego is all, then what will serve Him after your ego and body departs. How do you know that you will exist? Do not avoid these questions. You can avoid all other things.

 

 

 

Ok. I will believe what I believe. You believe what you believe. Both are equally useful,

••the difference is that i gave some logical demonstration... not only belief

 

Prostrations to your superior logic; I applaud you, I bow down to you, I respect you. And most of all, I love you for your superior logic.

 

 

 

The central teaching is that Krishna, who is One without a second does everything

•••yes, he does everything directly or through his parts and parcels that are one in quality with him and different in quantity. He's infinite, we are infinitesimal... both eternal. Because if the whole's eternal, his parts have to be eternal too

 

What is quantity in subtle soul? What is quantity in gases? Is it weight or is it volume? At the level of soul: the minutest is the biggest:

 

namo jyeshhThAya cha kanishhThAya cha

namaH pUrvajAya chAparajAya cha

namo madhyamAya chApagalbhAya cha

 

 

namaH pA\m+savyAya cha rajasyAya cha

 

 

But He has provided us with Advaita also. How can we throw that away?

•••i respect you, i have my opinion, i do not think that advaita will bring you to the realization of the absolute, but there's no problem. Even if i think to be better situated intellectually it does not means that i am really advanced as a spiritualist. All my messages come out when someone says that advaita is the perfection and the conclusion of all paths. I do not agree because i think, and i try to demonstrate, that advaita is one of the concepts, not the more evolute, or the conclusion or the encompassing and so on.

 

I agree with you that Advaita may not give me salvation, since He only can grant grace.

 

But do you know that Dvaita will salvage you? Please demonstrate that you served Him before your birth and you will serve after you die. Who will be there to know?

 

Do not repeat from books but understand first how you as variety can eternally serve the Lord. How will you know that you are eternally serving Him?

 

 

Atanu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

What is inspiration? Is it just the good thoughts of him, or is it something else?

••shakti, power

 

And who claims that individual is an illusion?

••you... merging is losing individuality... like orange juice and water merged lose their separate existence

 

You are not eternal. Can you prove that you were there before you took birth? Please prove it?

•••we perceive the reality of the body as a changing reality, there's birth, increase, decrease, death and illness... but the life, the sensation to exist never change. You feel to exist a second after birth and a second before death.. exactly in the same way.

You do not exist more or less, you exist and that's all, so this existence does not obviously come from the matter, because the matter increase and decrease and get sick. So existence comes from another dimension, from the dimension where there's not increasing and decreasing, but everything simply "exists" eternally. Eternal means after and before.. otherwise there's no eternity.

 

Do you see your personality in your deep sleep? That would indeed be a new scientific discovery.

••sleep regenerating is an activity, activity means life, life means activity, activity means plurality of subjects, plurality means different personality/ies

 

But many do not exist when you see the One. And when you see many, then you don’t see the One.

••not true... read for example when arjuna sees virat rupa... it requires spiritual advancement, now it is only possible to explain a little with logic, but it is possible. Acynthia Beda Abeda Tattva... different and non different simultaneously

 

Transcendental desire only has lead to a caussal and material body.

••transcendental is not material.... spiritual life is necessary because we have life in this world, variety is necessary because we have variety in this world, variety is exchanging services, moods, feelings.... this comes from desires... so there's desires also in spiritual world. But being world, circumstances and subjects transcendental.... also desires are transcendental

 

Ego is the sense of I-Me-Mine ness attached to body and mind. How can such a person who is attached to his body only, submerge his activities towards goal of another?

••due to your conception you identify ego with material body. Obviously if i have made a description of a spiritual variety, existence, exchanging moods, activities, feelings and so on in the perfect world, i necessarily believe in an ego, existence, personality not relying on material body (but with spiritual body, svarupa). The next thing is that if i want to help you to attain some goal, because i am friend, brother or philantrophist and so on... i do not need to merge. I am i, you are you, i help you... two distinct people, an action (helping) and a relationship (helper and helped).

 

You do not have your understanding correct.

•••logic.... i help you... where's the merging? if i merge there's no more one and another and one is no more helping the other.

 

Chapatti is “I”

••you cannot eat yourself... so if you want to eat a chapati there's the need of you, the chapaty and the action of eating... three things.. no oneness

 

No. I will rather meditate eternally.

••so meditate... why speak if you want to meditate? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

You can tell me about your beautiful experiences and I will tell you when I have any.

••oh many thanks.... using intelligence to exchange spiritual conceptions is a spiritual experience too, meditation (=pointing the mind on something, remembering, thinking of)

 

I think I am older than you and as an elder brother I will request that please understand the other view first to defend your view.

••if you have seen i am not interested in sect fighting, is answer precisely on what you are saying.. you are free also to have your own view not supported by any school. Your conception is not dynamic... because dynamism is moving from here to there, if there's only the ONE, who moves and where He moves if WHERE does not exists and movement does not exists being only this ONE?

 

Again I will say: opinion of several thousand sages

•••and other thousands think the opposite

 

You will say: I belong to a dinasty (sic).

••in the sense that my religion is not created by me.. but there's a school, parampara..

 

But prove that you will eternally love your God

••god is eternal by definition, i am eternal because i am a part of him and he cannot have non eternal parts, the only possible relation is uninterested and unselfish love because he does not need anything by me and he's the sum of all qualities, all attractive (=krsna) so it is impossible to not love him eternally.

if we are conditioned we love his energy (maya) if we are liberated we love him in his supreme personality (satcitananda rupa)

 

Who will do it after your body goes?

••your body meand that i am i and body is mine... when the body goes i remain me and i take a material body if i have to act in the material world or i come back in the spiritual world if i am realized for krsna's mercy

 

Because you think that ego is all, then what will serve Him after your ego and body departs.

••is the false identification with the material body, ahankara, who departs.. not existence, individuality, ego.. there's a true ego who remains, eternal before and after. God is a person, his parts are persons

 

How do you know that you will exist?

••because, as i have explained before in this message, life is somewhat perceived independent by body. You exist as a baby, you exist as a young man, you exist as a mature man, you exist as an old man , you exist as a one who is to die in a minute... you exist.. no changes, so logically no changes before the conception or after the death.

 

Prostrations to your superior logic; I applaud you, I bow down to you, I respect you. And most of all, I love you for your superior logic.

••my mind is not made by special matter, it is a simple human mind like yours

 

At the level of soul: the minutest is the biggest:

••yes but there's an independent existence and an emanated existence... there's a minute/biggest and a more bigger 0f the biggest who is the source ... so we remain infinitesimal and dependent, and god remains infinite and independent

 

But do you know that Dvaita will salvage you?

••i use mind and intelligence to choose an idea, a conception, a path... i change idea if someone makes me see something better (realizations are not a discussion's subjects, because they are impossible to demonstrate.. what's the use if i say.. i have seen krsna, he have said that i am right and you are wrong?)... (my conception is not dvaita.... gaudya vaishnavas are acynthia beda abeda)

 

Please demonstrate that you served Him before your birth and you will serve after you die.

••already done.. but it is also possible to say that one gets a certain life by karma and he gets the next also by karma... karma law is krishna, so following (forced by nature) it is following and serving krsna

 

Who will be there to know?

••logic is a good source of consciousness.. i try to use it

 

Do not repeat from books but understand first how you as variety can eternally serve the Lord

••i can be a great fool, but surely not a mere book repeater, i am trying to demonstrate everything i as from the very start of our discussion... you have made also prostrations, bowings and so on to my logic.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

How will you know that you are eternally serving Him?

•••karma when we are conditioned, bhakti when we will be liberated

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Guest

 

 

1. “What is inspiration? Is it just the good thoughts of him, or is it something else?

••shakti, power”

 

Yes it is Lord’s shakti. And it is his vision.

 

 

2. ”Do you see your personality in your deep sleep? That would indeed be a new scientific discovery.

••sleep regenerating is an activity, activity means life, life means activity, activity means plurality of subjects, plurality means different personality/ies”

 

You exist in deep sleep but you do not see your personality and the world why? Answer why and nothing else please.

 

 

3. ”Transcendental desire only has lead to a caussal and material body.

••transcendental is not material.... spiritual life is necessary because we have life in this world, variety is necessary because we have variety in this world, variety is exchanging services, moods, feelings.... this comes from desires... so there's desires also in spiritual world. But being world, circumstances and subjects transcendental.... also desires are transcendental”

 

I maintain that transcendental desire has only lead to causal and material body that you think you are. Whose desire it is?

 

 

4. ”You do not have your understanding correct.

•••logic.... i help you... where's the merging? if i merge there's no more one and another and one is no more helping the other.”

 

There is no merging. There is only one who sees the variety. You only believe that you see the variety. He is one and He only sees the variety to enjoy himself. All movements exist in Him and He only sees the movement and variety. Due to dark sheath of desire, the divine light Visnu is not seen by you and you imagine that your body, mind, and soul are independent. You don’t see that it one Visnu alone who sees everything.

 

 

 

5. prove that you will eternally love your God

••god is eternal by definition, i am eternal because i am a part of him and he cannot have non eternal parts, the only possible relation is uninterested and unselfish love because he does not need anything by me and he's the sum of all qualities, all attractive (=krsna) so it is impossible to not love him eternally.

if we are conditioned we love his energy (maya) if we are liberated we love him in his supreme personality (satcitananda rupa)

 

6. ”You are not eternal. Can you prove that you were there before you took birth? Please prove it?

•••we perceive the reality of the body as a changing reality, there's birth, increase, decrease, death and illness... but the life, the sensation to exist never change. You feel to exist a second after birth and a second before death.. exactly in the same way.

You do not exist more or less, you exist and that's all, so this existence does not obviously come from the matter, because the matter increase and decrease and get sick. So existence comes from another dimension, from the dimension where there's not increasing and decreasing, but everything simply "exists" eternally. Eternal means after and before.. otherwise there's no eternity.”

 

 

7. Who will do it after your body goes?

••your body meand that i am i and body is mine... when the body goes i remain me and i take a material body if i have to act in the material world or i come back in the spiritual world if i am realized for krsna's mercy

 

 

8. How do you know that you will exist?

••because, as i have explained before in this message, life is somewhat perceived independent by body. You exist as a baby, you exist as a young man, you exist as a mature man, you exist as an old man , you exist as a one who is to die in a minute... you exist.. no changes, so logically no changes before the conception or after the death.

 

9. Please demonstrate that you served Him before your birth and you will serve after you die.

••already done.. but it is also possible to say that one gets a certain life by karma and he gets the next also by karma... karma law is krishna, so following (forced by nature) it is following and serving krsna

 

10. Who will be there to know?

••logic is a good source of consciousness.. i try to use it

 

11. How will you know that you are eternally serving Him?

•••karma when we are conditioned, bhakti when we will be liberated

 

 

To questions 5 to 11 above you have stated many things which are not straight answers.

 

I will put the questions again.

 

a) Who did Karma/bhakti when you were not born (when your sense organs were not there)

b) Who will do karma/bhakti when you will pass away? (when your sense organs will not be there)

c) How did you know that you performed Karma/bhati when you were not born

d) How will you know that you are doing karma/bhakti after your departure

e) Who else is the witness to your acts of Karma/Bhakti when your body (sense organs) was not there

f) Who else will be witness to your acts of Karma/Bhakti when your body (senses) go.

 

 

I request you to please answer ‘the Who’ and ‘the How’ to above questions and nothing else.

 

Atanu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

You exist in deep sleep but you do not see your personality and the world why?

••to stretch so much an example like that is useless, but if you want to play no problem for me.... neither who is in coma is completely unconscious...

 

I maintain that transcendental desire has only lead to causal and material body that you think you are.

••transcendental means "beyond matter".. so a transcendental desire cannot lead us to matter, a transcendental desire gives transcendental results.

 

You only believe that you see the variety.

••no.. i see variety, me, my computer, you.... three

 

Due to dark sheath of desire, the divine light Visnu is not seen by you and you imagine that your body, mind, and soul are independent.

••vishnu , a subject, "is not seen" an action, "by you" another subject...... i do not think to be independent, i think to be a different being, if i were not different to speak of someone who depends from another (two subjects and an actions) would have no meaning. To depend we have to be at least in two. So i individual make the action to depend from another individual.

 

You don’t see that it one Visnu alone who sees everything.

••vishnu and his parts and parcels.. who are complete persons, vishnu is so great that his emenations keep, in different proportions, all his greatness. In the Bible: "i create man at my image and resemblance"(or something like that)

 

a) Who did Karma/bhakti when you were not born (when your sense organs were not there)

••we do not take birth, we are eternal spiritual souls... 18282 years ago it was me who were making karma (maybe bhakti or some religion too) with another body, in the same way as seven, fourteen, 28 years ago i was acting (modern science says that every seven years we change all the cells in the body... reincarnation)

 

b) Who will do karma/bhakti when you will pass away? (when your sense organs will not be there)

••if i will not be liberated i will act through anothe material boy, if i will be liberated (=bhakti) i will act as a spiritual complete individual (body included) in the spiritual world, vaikunta

 

c) How did you know that you performed Karma/bhati when you were not born

••if now i have to pay reactions obviously i have made some actions before... there's not injustice or chance

 

d) How will you know that you are doing karma/bhakti after your departure

••action means reactions after some time.. so if i act now i will have reactions after, if i act as a materialist i will necessarily receive another material body to receive material reactions, if i act as a transcendentalist, i will come back in my transcendental original position as a reaction on my behaviour(of course by the mercy of god)... action and reaction

 

e) Who else is the witness to your acts of Karma/Bhakti when your body (sense organs) was not there

••there was other dresses (bodies) in the past.. the eternal witness is paramatma who lives close to the jivatma

 

f) Who else will be witness to your acts of Karma/Bhakti when your body (senses) go.

••there will be other bodies.. paramatma witnesses

 

I request you to please answer ‘the Who’ and ‘the How’ to above questions and nothing else.

••you had to put it at the top... now it is late

 

haribol

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Guest

 

Hori bol Hori bol

 

I request you to please answer ‘the Who’ and ‘the How’ to the questions and nothing else.

 

Before this dress of yours with 2 holes for eyes, 2 holes for ears etc. came into existence:

 

1. How did you know that you did karma/bhakti?

2. Who else knows that you did karma/bhakti?

 

When this dress of yours with 2 holes for eyes, 2 holes for ears etc. will go:

 

1. How will you know that you would be doing karma/bhakti?

2. Who else will give witness that you are actually doing karma/Bhakti?

 

By the way deep sleep and coma states are different. In coma the brain is dead. In deep sleep brain is not dead. After coma, you do not come back. In deep sleep you exist but do not see the world. Do you forget? It is not streching. It is a winner.

 

Om, Namah Sivaya. Om Namah Bhagavate Shri Vasudevaya Namah.

 

Hori Bol, Hori Bol

 

Atanu

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

a1)if i get reactions i surely have made some actions, if i get reactions even at the moment of conceivement (getting some parents and not some others) i have did some actions in a previous life to receive this reactions

 

a2)paramatma

 

b1)if i act i will get reactions

 

b2)it is not possible to avoid actions, if i exist i act, if i act i get reactions and i do new actions to react. The fact that i exist means by itself that i existed before

 

In coma the brain is dead. In deep sleep brain is not dead.

••both are living as individual

 

After coma, you do not come back.

••no... there's many kinds of coma.. many come back. And if we leave this body in coma, life continues in another body

 

In deep sleep you exist but do not see the world.

••even if one closes the eyes, he is an individual existence even if he do not see the world

 

Do you forget?

••maybe.. please xplain

 

It is not streching. It is a winner.

••not with me.. you want simply to demonstrate that we have moments of non individual existence when we are sleeping, i do not think that it works, change example..

 

Om, Namah Sivaya. Om Namah Bhagavate Shri Vasudevaya Namah.

Hori Bol, Hori Bol

•••all these greetings are personalists not advaitists, all these names are also features and the last ones are actions:)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Dear Guest,

 

Raghuraman ji, I suppose.

 

“a1)if i get reactions i surely have made some actions, if i get reactions even at the moment of conceivement (getting some parents and not some others) i have did some actions in a previous life to receive this reactions”

 

This is not a proof, but this a surmise without an objective basis. This is not answer to How? From your answer it is clear that you don’t remember having being a soul before appearance of this dress in a womb.

 

However, I grant you that appearance of a dress in a particular womb is general PROOF OF PAST EXISTENCE OF INDIVIDUAL SOUL WHICH DID KARMA/BHAKTI. Then Krisna and Rama who appeared through birth also are individual souls, different from Para Brahman?

 

 

”a2) paramatma”

 

You are accepting here that no one but para Brahman was witness to your soul. Even your soul does not know it. How will you now say that there are millions and millions of souls, if none can verify your acts of karma in past dresses.

 

”b1)if i act i will get reactions

b2)it is not possible to avoid actions, if i exist i act, if i act i get reactions and i do new actions to react. The fact that i exist means by itself that i existed before”

 

For b1 and b2: If it is not possible to avoid actions and if it is sufficient proof of existence of an individual soul then Krisna and Rama did not avoid Karma. So, they are eternal individual souls and not Para Brahman.

 

If you insist, that no they are Para Brahman, then HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT PARA BRAHMAN? If you answer this please restrict to the HOW?

 

”In coma the brain is dead. In deep sleep brain is not dead.

••both are living as individual

After coma, you do not come back.

••no... there's many kinds of coma.. many come back. And if we leave this body in coma, life continues in another body

In deep sleep you exist but do not see the world.

••even if one closes the eyes, he is an individual existence even if he do not see the world

It is not streching. It is a winner.

••not with me.. you want simply to demonstrate that we have moments of non individual existence when we are sleeping, i do not think that it works, change example..”

 

 

Whether in Deep sleep or in Coma, you don’t know the presence of Avidya – the differentiated individual soul or body. Deep sleep is about 20% of your existence and not momentary (actually that is the direct proof of your existence). You are deprecating COMA STAGE. But, it is again a proof of soul. You have yourself said that, even after Coma (when brain stops altogether), one may come back and exist. So one existed during coma BUT SAW NO VARIETY.

 

You CANNOT demand change of example. I insist that you answer: in deep sleep your soul exists (but you do not know about the eternal Avidya, WHY? If you choose to answer, then answer the Why only

 

You said that in deep sleep also one is an individual. No, the person who is in deep sleep exists but he does not have concsiousness of individualty. We are talking about concsiousness -- the soul and not the dress.

 

“Om, Namah Sivaya. Om Namah Bhagavate Shri Vasudevaya Namah.

Hori Bol, Hori Bol

•••all these greetings are personalists not advaitists, all these names are also features and the last ones are actions:)”

 

ADVAITA ACCEPTS THESE NAMES AND FORMS AS SAGUNA PARAM BRAHMAN. AND IT ALSO SAYS THOU ART THAT (FOLLOWING VEDAS). HORI BOL HORI BOL IS SUCH ACTION WHICH MAY IN YOUR LIFE TIME REMOVE THE AVIDYA AND DEMONSTRATE “THOU ART THAT”. SO I VALUE THIS ACTION AS SUPREME.

 

Dear Guestji, Krishna's soul does not reside within individuals. But so called individuals reside within Krishna. Only sheaths of ignorance (results of desire) hide this truth. Divinely lighted Brahman is all around and we are non-eternal small dark specks of desire on the body of That. Attaining Brahma jnana through Karma/Bhakti/Jnana yoga removes desire completely, and then dark speck is light again.

 

So, you do not merge, but you That sans the ignorance.

 

 

ATANU

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

“a1)if i get reactions i surely have made some actions, if i get reactions even at the moment of conceivement (getting some parents and not some others) i have did some actions in a previous life to receive this reactions”

This is not a proof, but this a surmise without an objective basis. This is not answer to How?

••this is a proof because all the nature works according cause and effect, we see it everyday... so if i am not born in the same your circumstances it means that we have different karma to pay, and we have done that karma in previous lifes. How? according karma (cause and effect) law.

 

From your answer it is clear that you don’t remember having being a soul before appearance of this dress in a womb.

••i do not remember even what i have eaten at dinner yesterday, but i know for various reasons that i was existing yesterday and that i have eaten something

 

Then Krisna and Rama who appeared through birth also are individual souls, different from Para Brahman?

•••krsna is param brahman, rama is an avatar direct expansion of param brahman sri krsna.. he's krsna, but god is omnipotent and his expansions are complete divine persons.. so rama is krsna himself, but at the same time he's showing a complete, different, divine personality. They live both eternally and simultaneously. So if me and you are individual, also sri ram and sri krsna have individuality and personality.. they're not less than us. Param Brahman is not a separate tattva, is a name of god.. supreme spirit, or supreme among spiritual manifestations.

 

How will you now say that there are millions and millions of souls?

••(infinite souls... because they belong to absolute, infinite world) because if there's individuality in the matter, there will be individuality also in the spirit

 

If it is not possible to avoid actions and if it is sufficient proof of existence of an individual soul then Krisna and Rama did not avoid Karma.

•• krsna and rama also act, there's ramayana, mahabharata, puranas.. plenty of literature about their actions. But they do not belong to the material world, their actions are transcendental, lilas. They're not subjected to karma, because god is the creator and sustainer of the karma law, he's not subjected to it.

So if there's action in the relative, it is logic we have also action in the absolute, absoluted in latin means not bounded, not bounded by material laws.. so they act, but not on material plane, they do not create karma, they are not subjected to karma laws.

 

If you insist, that no they are Para Brahman, then HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT PARA BRAHMAN?

••god is CIT, consciousness, eternal consciousness.. another name of god is BUDDHA, spiritually intelligent.. so god does not forget to be god. I do not remember to be god, my existence depends from external laws, i do not control anything, so i surely am not param (supreme) brahman (spirit). I am subordinate, not supreme.

 

You have yourself said that, even after Coma (when brain stops altogether), one may come back and exist. So one existed during coma BUT SAW NO VARIETY.

••if i close my eyes i do not see any variety, i see only black... but this does not means that, colours, shapes, variety do not exist.

 

No, the person who is in deep sleep exists but he does not have concsiousness of individualty.

••i do not understand the use of this example, but what is the problem? you sleep and you do not perceive that i am cooking some chapatis, when you wake up you will eat chapati and you will understand that they have been cooked when you were asleep. So, perceived by you or not, life was going on, existence was going on, and you perceive it after eating a chapati made when you had no external material consciousness.

 

Krishna's soul does not reside within individuals

••aside individuals... atma is close to "his" paramatma

 

But so called individuals reside within Krishna.

••yes.. as parts and parcels.. but the parts and parcels are qualitatively (=features, gunas) as the whole, so they're also individuals

 

Divinely lighted Brahman is all around and we are non-eternal small dark specks of desire on the body of That

••illogic, param brahman is all eternal, he does not contains non eternal small dark specks... he contains and sustains eternal complete living personalities

 

Attaining Brahma jnana through Karma/Bhakti/Jnana yoga removes desire completely,

••desire cannot stop, because desire is synonim of existence.... is material (egoistic) desire who stop, we, when realized, live eternally with the desire to fulfill the desires of sri krsna bhagavan... this generates actions, variety, life and so on.. all in the transcendental plane (as written in mahabharata, ramayana, bhagavat purana and so on.... activities, lilas.. all in the highest plane, not mundane)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

 

Dear Guest,

 

First a confession. I like your cool ways.

 

“a1)if i get reactions i surely --- to receive this reactions”

This is not a proof, -----. This is not answer to How?

••this is a proof. How? According to karma (cause and effect) law.”

 

OK. I accept that it is a proof. You state that all nature is bound to Karma and as Karma controls your soul, thus your soul is of the nature of non-eternal something, different from Brahman, which you state below is beyond karma and is eternal. As soul is eternally bound to Karma, then it is eternally bonded and never liberated. Is your soul bonded for ever, as in Dvaita? Or can your soul get liberation?

 

”From your answer it is clear that you don’t remember having been a soul before appearance of this dress in a womb.

••i do not remember even what i have eaten at dinner yesterday, but i know for various reasons that i was existing yesterday and that i have eaten something”

 

1. You are talking about forgetfulness of mind. Do you mean that soul is like mind and it also forgets? Or that the soul is same as mind? That soul is gross matter?

2. By equating that ‘you don’t remember your last body’ with your ‘forgetting that you ate something’, you accept that the individual soul has forgotten. Can an eternal thing that the soul is forget? Eternal beings like God do not forget, since they are above Kala. Your soul is therefore not beyond Kala and therefore not eternal. Your soul will be absorbed in the One Soul at the time of dissolution. Then it will have a new beginning in the next creation. Thus it is not eternal.

3. If there is more than one eternal soul then God is not free, since He also will be subjected to Karma due to interaction with other souls. In hierarchy the Boss is bound by the subordinates. No Boss is free, if there is a second -- subordinate, equal, or superior.

 

4. But, He, the “I” tells you: Soul is eternal and remembers everything. But due to superimposition of Maya – resulting from the sport of Purusha-Prakriti (one entity), a jiva through faculty of mind thinks that the soul has forgotten. Due to superimposition of Maya on soul, you do not remember (with your mind) that the soul is eternal. But it is only One eternal soul of Brahman. That One Soul wills millions of eyes, ears and noses and enjoys million views (plays and songs). The cause and the phenomenon are same. It is “I” that is sporting. Each such play and song thinks it playing itself. It is singing itself.

 

The debate is finished but “I” will continue to sport.

 

”Then Krisna and Rama who appeared through birth also are individual souls, different from Para Brahman?

•••krsna is param brahman, rama is an avatar direct expansion of param brahman sri krsna.. he's krsna, but god is omnipotent and his expansions are complete divine persons.. so rama is krsna himself, but at the same time he's showing a complete, different, divine personality. They live both eternally and simultaneously. So if me and you are individual, also sri ram and sri krsna have individuality and personality.. they're not less than us. Param Brahman is not a separate tattva, is a name of god. supreme spirit, or supreme among spiritual manifestations.”

 

1. Note ‘so rama is krsna himself, but at the same time he's showing a complete, different, divine personality’. You say that Rama is same as Krisna but shows a different personality. That is what I have been saying: GOD IS ONE SOUL BUT SHOWS MANY MILLIONS OF COLOURS, WHEREIN THE UNDERLYING TRUTH IS THE ETERNAL WAVE AND NOT VARYING COLOURS.

2. Personalities can never be complete and eternal. Personalities have limitations but God is sum total of all personalities and infinitely more. If Krsna is Brahman and complete then why He needs to create Rama, if not for some specific purpose? Personalities have a body also (otherwise they will be fictional personality) and body is a limitation. Brahman as a body cannot be all pervading. Things will remain outside Him. So, he will not be all pervasive and all inclusive. He will not be omnipotent also. Like Yadu race being destroyed. Like, Gopis being kidnapped. Like Siva losing Sati. So, what is correct is that Krishna as Nirguna Brahman appears as a saguna Krishna for specific purpose. But it is Brahman only who appears and not any other soul. Your body is also an appearance of Brahman and not of another soul.

3. What is expansion according to you? We saw earlier that since your soul forgets, it is not beyond Kala and hence will have a beginning. So not eternal and not distinct.

4. If individual souls are eternally distinct from the Para Atman (as you say), then Rama is also eternally distinct from Para Atman. What is the relation? If there is no relation it would mean something outside Brahman and that is not tenable.

5. If the expansion is immanent, with distinct boundaries, and not in terms of the same spirit that the Original soul is, then either the immanent expansion is not complete as the original or the source diminishes and therefore does not remain eternally unchanging.

 

”How will you now say that there are millions and millions of souls?

••(infinite souls... because they belong to absolute, infinite world) because if there's individuality in the matter, there will be individuality also in the spirit”

 

1. You say: if there's individuality in the matter, there will be individuality also in the spirit. If there are millions of different types of matter then there would be equal numbers of eternal souls? So, a tree would have an eternal spirit and its leaves would have numerous eternal spirits. We have already seen above that eternity of more than one soul cannot be supported.

 

2. If Brahman and the expanded souls are distinct, then there is no cause and effect. There is no linkage between the cause (Brahman) and the effect (the individual souls). This falsifies the cause-effect dictum altogether.

 

 

”If it is not possible to avoid actions and if it is sufficient proof of existence of an individual soul then Krisna and Rama did not avoid Karma.

•• krsna and rama also act, ---. But they do not belong to the material world, their actions are transcendental, lilas. They're not subjected to karma, because god is the creator and sustainer of the karma law, he's not subjected to it.”

 

1. Ok. God is above Karma because he sports. The manifested beings are His Leela. If they are not Leela but are real distinct eternal souls, then actions of the real distinct souls will have effect on Him due to cause and effect dictum.

 

 

”If you insist, that no they are Para Brahman, then HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT PARA BRAHMAN?

••god is CIT, .... so god does not forget to be god. I do not remember to be god, my existence depends from external laws, i do not control anything, so i surely am not param (supreme) brahman (spirit). I am subordinate, not supreme.”

 

1. You say that you do not remember to be God. You have also forgotten that your soul existed in another dress. But you say your soul is eternal. What to believe? If, your being God is untrue then your being a soul also is untrue.

2. When Vedas say “So Hum”, does it not sat that “This and THAT are identical”. It does not say that the soul forgets. You cannot contradict Shruti. Your not remembering is due to what? Is it eternal forgetfulness or the eternal Avidya?

3. You say that you do not control anything. Then how law of karma is true? You have stated that you are one distinct soul by whose actions next dress will be determined. WHY DO YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF? IF YOU ARE AN INDIVIDUAL SOUL, YOUR ACTIONS CONTROL THE RESULTS AND HENCE YOU CONTROL EVERYTHING.

 

 

”You have yourself said that, even after Coma (when brain stops altogether), one may come back and exist. So one existed during coma BUT SAW NO VARIETY.

••if i close my eyes i do not see any variety, i see only black... but this does not means that, colours, shapes, variety do not exist.

No, the person who is in deep sleep exists but he does not have consciousness of individuality.

••i do not understand the use of this example, but what is the problem? you sleep and you do not perceive that i am cooking some chapatis, when you wake up you will eat chapati and you will understand that they have been cooked when you were asleep. So, perceived by you or not, life was going on, existence was going on, and you perceive it after eating a chapati made when you had no external material consciousness.”

 

Do not try to confuse others. What we are discussing is the Shusupti state. Please do not compare the consciousness of shushupti and the consciousness of the waking state. Within shushupti, Vedas (shruti) declares:

Sata saumya tadasampanno bhavati, svayamapito bhavati. Sati sampadya na viduh.

In sushupti Jiva attains oneness with pure consciousness. Though Maya exists, they do not know of Maya in this state.

When in Shushpti, Jiva attains oneness with Param Atman and therefore does not recognize Maya (though it exists along side the Jiva). So, if you attain Brahman through your karma/bhakti/jnana and not in sleep, then Maya will not exist for you.

 

On waking again the Maya gets hold of the Jiva. So, you see the Chapati. Does your soul remember that it built a house in its last dress? During dream state, the objects in the dream state are real. It is only after the dream state is over that objects become unreal. So, do not compare 2 different states.

 

 

”Krishna's soul does not reside within individuals

••aside individuals... atma is close to "his" paramatma”

But so called individuals reside within Krishna.

••yes.. as parts and parcels.. but the parts and parcels are qualitatively (=features, gunas) as the whole, so they're also individuals”

 

1. Not as parts and parcels like as cells and molecules and hands and mouths; but as spiritual essence. Spiritual essence is not divisible in material parts. And essence is never different from essence. If it is different then it is not the essence. You said God is omnipotent therefore can do anything. But He is also omniscient and omnipresent. And therefore cannot get parted to create distinctly different things.

2. What is closeness? We are discussing over internet. Are we close? Your actions influence me and vice versa. So, we are close. We are interconnected. We are part of one whole system, where every apparent distinct entity seems to be influenced by the other? So, if action of an individual soul has no result on Brahman then there is no connection.

3. If your soul is seeing a truth and my soul is seeing another truth, then either the souls are not souls or there are many truths. It is through our faculties of mind that we perceive many truths and many souls. And this faculty of mind shadowed by Maya.

4. You say: “so they're also individuals within Krishna”. Does your personality remain eternally same within Krishna? Next dress of yours may be a rock, will your personality persist?

 

 

”Divinely lighted Brahman is all around and we are non-eternal small dark specks of desire on the body of That

••illogic, param brahman is all eternal, he does not contains non eternal small dark specks... he contains and sustains eternal complete living personalities”

 

1. You say: “he contains and sustains eternal complete living personalities” How he sustains them if there is no connection? Through what medium he sends instructions, knowledge, grace, love etc.

2. Will your personality is eternal? You will take up another dress in next incarnation. Are you talking about something else and not personality?

3. Non eternal shadows are the manifestations of Maya, but in essence it is One soul. These regions are the sportive regions, where the essence gets sheathed and God enjoys the new view. And this is what we call creation.

 

 

”Attaining Brahma jnana through Karma/Bhakti/Jnana yoga removes desire completely,

••desire cannot stop, because desire is synonim of existence.... is material (egoistic) desire who stop, we, when realized, live eternally with the desire to fulfill the desires of sri krsna bhagavan... this generates actions, variety, life and so on.. all in the transcendental plane (as written in mahabharata, ramayana, bhagavat purana and so on.... activities, lilas.. all in the highest plane, not mundane)”

 

1. You say: desire is synonim (sic) of existence. Then every existence is the result of one original primordial desire only, at the beginning of creation. So, existence comes up; Cause and effect. Thus your soul has a beginning. Now, if the soul is distinct, in essence, from the source and still Brahman remains eternally same as before creation, then where is cause and effect? There is no cause since there was no effect in Brahman. It would mean that Brahman was not the cause.

2. You have agreed that Shri Krishna has desires. If you have identically same desires as those of Shri Krishna, then you will, by the law of Karma, become Krishna. Eventually, identical desires have to lead to identical actions and then identical results. Otherwise law of Karma is not valid.

3. If, in his heaven, you become freed from Karma effects, then you have already become Brahman; since only the Brahman is free from the karma law.

4. But, if in that heaven, you are bound to Karma, then it is not the highest heaven. You are likely to take birth again. Brahma Sutras states: The knower of Brahman will not return to mortal existence. So, your position contradicts Brahma Sutras.

 

Atanu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

First a confession. I like your cool ways.

•••i am not a great philosopher, it's you that making intelligent objections make me answer in a cool way... we may have different opinions but we are united and brothers by the deep interest in spirituality

 

You state that all nature is bound to Karma and as Karma controls your soul

••no why? nature acts in the material realm.. the effects of his laws are on body and mind (that's also body), soul is transcendental

 

thus your soul is of the nature of non-eternal something, different from Brahman, which you state below is beyond karma and is eternal.

••no, individual soul is qualitatively the same with param brahman.. both are sat, cit, ananda... the only difference is in "quantity" and that individual soul gets his existence by the supreme

 

Is your soul bonded for ever, as in Dvaita? Or can your soul get liberation?

••soul is never really bounded, someone who, envious of god, wants to be independent by him, is illuded by maya to identify himself with the body, the material world and so on to fulfill his desire to forget god. When one, listening to the message of the various religious messenger sended by god in various religions, resumes gradually his true nature of eternal, spiritual individual, satcitananda, he comes back in vaikunta and he assumes his eternal place and role in god's reign and lilas as if he had been away for some moments to take a glass of water, So soul is ever liberated... for some rebels, by their original will, maya fulfills their desire to forget their eternal nature... but our liberated condition is ready for us to come back from the illusion, or better, to manifest herself again

 

1. You are talking about forgetfulness of mind. Do you mean that soul is like mind and it also forgets? Or that the soul is same as mind? That soul is gross matter?

••choosing to come in the material world we have choosen to be illuded and darkened by maya. So we get a material mind who, being not perfect, is very easy to forget, also what happened yesterday, also what appened 198 years ago when we were in another dress/body. Soul is there and remains CIT, conscious, but we have asked previously to maya to live forgetting that we are eternal souls connected to the supersoul. So we live as bodies, we know only the body, we think to exist only when the body exist.

 

3. If there is more than one eternal soul then God is not free, since He also will be subjected to Karma due to interaction with other souls.

••this comes from the fact that you think that individual soul is subjected to karma. BUT 1)soul and supersoul relationship is transcendental not karmic 2)god is the source of karma, the one who creates the law and sustains it. So he can interact with karma (for example krsna, rama, narasimha, kalki can walk in the earth, and make activities (lilas) here, without being conditionated by it... as the prison's director enters in the prison but he's not a prisoneer.

 

In hierarchy the Boss is bound by the subordinates. No Boss is free, if there is a second -- subordinate, equal, or superior.

••this in material world where no one is omnipotent and where his freedom is limited by the freedom of others... this is the purpose of living in the matter, we as perfect souls live frustrated in a non perfect world, when some religious message comes, we are more ready to listen and surrender. If this world could be perfect, we would remain there eternally, so god gives freedom to go away creating material world and gives the freedom to come back having created a non perfect world so we are sooner or later frustrated and delided and we search for escaping solutions.. religions

 

But it is only One eternal soul of Brahman. That One Soul wills millions of eyes, ears and noses and enjoys million views (plays and songs).

••yes.. virat rupa, as krsna shows to arjuna in bhagavad gita.. but this form is made by individualities.. the sense instruments that you have said are for make activities, activity means plurality of subjects and so on.. and gita says that krsna SHOWS this form and after some time arjuna asks to stop this sight and to see the original krsna's form... so virat rupa has origin in krsna rupa, not the opposite, and krsna exist, arjuna exist, bhima exist, duryodana exist, drtarastra exist and so on.... eternally.

 

1. Note ‘so rama is krsna himself, but at the same time he's showing a complete, different, divine personality’. You say that Rama is same as Krisna but shows a different personality

••personality in the spiritual realm means identity, individuality.. every existence comes from krsna bhagavan, me, you, siva, brahma, ramachandra and so on but simultaneously we have also individuality. Maya cannot be more powerful than krsna, so if there's individuals in the mundane realm there's also individuals in the absolute realm. This is why, in my opinion and in gaudya's opinion advaita and dvaita are both not perfect.. because god is one, but he contains variety otherwise how maya can have variety?.. because there's variety but we cannot say that there's some kind of existence separated by the whole.

 

So acynthia beda abeda tattva, inconceivably one in quality and different in quantity, we are "madeby god" and "of god" but we are quantitatively different from god. And this is logic but simultaneously inconceivable because in the mundane world it is impossible to see unity and plurality together.

 

.

 

If Krsna is Brahman and complete then why He needs to create Rama, if not for some specific purpose?

••krsna never needs, or there would be a need superior to god... necessarily god is free and all his activities are free, inconceivable for us and made to enjoy himself and his devotees.. so he freely chooses to come acting as ramachandra for his enjoyement and for the pleasure of devotees... variety is the source of pleasure.

Yes in gita is said that krsna comes to bring again religion when irreligion is prevailing (yada yada hi dharmasya..), but ultimately it is his free will to enjoy and to please devotees (paritranaya sadhunam...)

 

Personalities have a body also (otherwise they will be fictional personality) and body is a limitation.

•material body, not the transcendental one... if we have bodies in material world there will be bodies in transcendental one.. in material world body means birth, death, disease.. in spiritual world body means satcitananda, eternity, consciousness and bliss.

An inconceivably brahman is "inside" god's body. In bhagavata purana there's a story when the little krsna playing as a child eats the mud, when yasoda mata looks in the mouth to clean it she sees the universe, the stars, all devatas, the earth, vrindavan and she cleaning the mouth of krsna bhagavan

 

So, what is correct is that Krishna as Nirguna Brahman appears as a saguna Krishna for specific purpose.

••gita says the opposite and logic says that the absolute cannot miss a feature of the relative

 

We saw earlier that since your soul forgets, it is not beyond Kala

••material mind forgets.. not soul

 

If individual souls are eternally distinct from the Para Atman (as you say), then Rama is also eternally distinct from Para Atman

••simultaneously distinct and not distinct.. because completely distinct is illogical and completely indistinct is illogical too

 

5. If the expansion is immanent, with distinct boundaries, and not in terms of the same spirit that the Original soul is, then either the immanent expansion is not complete as the original or the source diminishes and therefore does not remain eternally unchanging.

••i have not understood, please re-explain if you want..

 

If there are millions of different types of matter then there would be equal numbers of eternal souls?

••16400000 species of material bodies (because matter is limited) and infinite number of souls (because spirit is unlimited)

 

So, a tree would have an eternal spirit and its leaves would have numerous eternal spirits

•••in your body there's hairs.. they do not have a separate existence from your body.. so, no separation, no individuality, no soul. Or we know that in our body there's bacteria.. yes they have separate existence.. they're soul.. and in atree there's birds, worms, snakes, flies.. everyone a separate eternal satcitananda soul

 

If Brahman and the expanded souls are distinct, then there is no cause and effect. There is no linkage between the cause (Brahman) and the effect (the individual souls).

•••atma and paramatma are as i have explained surely also ONE.. but activity is a clear product of plurality of individualities and different wills. My activity of writing this message comes from the fact that you are a different person, with different opinions, and you have previously written another message. If we were ONE, or you were ONE, or me were ONE... all that activity (=karma) would have been impossible and meaningless

 

The manifested beings are His Leela.

••why leela is opposite to individuality? lila is an activity, to have activities you need differences

 

1. You say that you do not remember to be God. You have also forgotten that your soul existed in another dress. But you say your soul is eternal. What to believe?

••no belief.. logic.. i am individual by logic and spiritual culture, scripture's study and so on... and i am not god because if i were god i'd surely feel it, for logic, scripture's study and so on.

 

If, your being God is untrue then your being a soul also is untrue.

••no.. because i feel to exist, you feel to exist... if we use, language, rationality, logic we cannot put in doubt tha existence. If we do it, so let us stop now to speak, because everything became useless, because nothing exist

 

When Vedas say “So Hum”, does it not sat that “This and THAT are identical”. It does not say that the soul forgets. You cannot contradict Shruti.

••vedas and vedic scriptures are to be studied as a whole. Impersonalism or advaitism or even buddhism, have surely a logic when people are so attached to the matter that god has to state firmly that the logic who reigns in the material world is absolutely not the same of the one of the absolute world. So: "you are not the body, you are spirit", "material variety, the source of all the problems in the world, does not exist in spiritual world" and so on. but if you study as a whole you discover that beyond the material world and the negation of the material world, there's a spiritual world. For this reason i do not say that brahman realization is false or brahman is not there, i say that there's something beyond

 

You say that you do not control anything. Then how law of karma is true? You have stated that you are one distinct soul by whose actions next dress will be determined. WHY DO YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF? IF YOU ARE AN INDIVIDUAL SOUL, YOUR ACTIONS CONTROL THE RESULTS AND HENCE YOU CONTROL EVERYTHING.

•••various answers 1)we are in this world by so many time and we have made so many actions that a great percentage of our acting could be almost out of our control because we are entangled by paying the reactions. If you kill someone you will be put in jail and lose the freedom for many years, you will have the freedom to move some steps in the prison's cell but that's all. So this is because we are free.. but only a few. 2)Even if we wuld have full freedom, this freedom will express herself through the law of god . Karma law is not made by ours, gravity is one of the karma laws, an apple can fall only from high to low, who is born has to die.. so we have freedom, but simultaneously we can act only trough the laws of god, with energies (sattva, rajas, tamas) given by god. So we are acting and simultaneously not acting

 

Do not try to confuse others. What we are discussing is the Shusupti state. Please do not compare the consciousness of shushupti and the consciousness of the waking state.

••you made an example.. i have spoken on that example...

 

In sushupti Jiva attains oneness with pure consciousness. Though Maya exists, they do not know of Maya in this state.

••if you obtain any true spiritual achievement in any state of consciousness you do not come back. After liberation you do not come back. The same, you have to interprete vedas and connected literature as the whole.

 

So, if you attain Brahman through your karma/bhakti/jnana and not in sleep, then Maya will not exist for you.

••of course.. you realize supreme god (param brahman) and you do not come back

 

Does your soul remember that it built a house in its last dress?

••yes for soul.. the real self remembers.. he's cit. But we have choosen to be subjected to forgetfullness, and maya, kindly, gives it to us and make us forget what we have done in a previous life.. and that we had a previous life because he does not want that we remember that we are spirit souls and the material bodies are only dresses

 

Not as parts and parcels like as cells and molecules and hands and mouths; but as spiritual essence. Spiritual essence is not divisible in material parts.

••of course no... but if in the matter there's individuality and plurality, in the spirit we have individuality and plurality too. But because spirit is purna (complete), the oneness does not go agains plurality and plurality does not weaken the oneness.. god is omnipotent and unlimited

 

What is closeness? We are discussing over internet. Are we close? Your actions influence me and vice versa. So, we are close. We are interconnected. We are part of one whole system, where every apparent distinct entity seems to be influenced by the other?

••yes... and simultaneously we are also far and independent. And independence and dependence are on the same plane, not that one's illusory and one's real.

 

If your soul is seeing a truth and my soul is seeing another truth, then either the souls are not souls or there are many truths.

••two answers 1)we are not living at the soul's plane, we are living at the mind's plane... mind is subjected by errors and on can be wrong and one can be right 2)spirituality is variety, so there's the possibility to see the same truth under a different, spiritual, aboslute, satcitananda point of view... radhe sees krsna as a lover, arjuna sees krsna before as a friend , after as a guru... both realizations are right, there's no contraddiction, simultaneously different and the same

 

Does your personality remain eternally same within Krishna? Next dress of yours may be a rock, will your personality persist?

••at the transcendental level our behaviour can surely change because changement is a feature, and spirit cannot miss any feature. Arjuna was a friend of krishna, after bhagavad gita he behave like a disciple of krishna... both relations are transcendental. In material realm we change the body from baby, to young, to mature, to old so reincarnation is not a secret for us. What we perceive is that there's a quality that does not change.. the life.. and many aspects of our personality that change, in young age we are passionate, at old age we are more moderate, sattvik. In a rock's body we will mantain the "life" ... very hidden and difficult to perceive for other because it is very heavily covered by maya... it's a rock body!!

 

2. Will your personality is eternal? You will take up another dress in next incarnation. Are you talking about something else and not personality?

••external personality... as an example if you work as a policeman you'll have an inner, intimate aspect and behaviour with your wife and sons.. and a more external role in the society as a policeman. If you change the job and you became a taxi driver, this aspect will change, the more intimate one with the family will remain unchanged... even if also this aspect can change, develop, increase and so on.

 

Non eternal shadows are the manifestations of Maya, but in essence it is One soul.

••and this is our opinions difference... you belief that variety is maya... but maya comes from bhagavan and maya cannot have more features than bhagavan

 

Then every existence is the result of one original primordial desire only, at the beginning of creation

••there's no beginning or creation (in western/christian sense)... souls are parcel and parts of god, god's eternal, parts are obviously eternal.. so we are one with god in eternity, different by god because he's the source of our eternity, we obtain it by him.

 

Now, if the soul is distinct, in essence, from the source and still Brahman remains eternally same as before creation, then where is cause and effect?

••there's no cration, param brahman is dynamic and acts, we act.. so there's causes and effects. Radhe bring s a garland to krsna, krsna gives her a flower.. cause and effect in the transcendence. And The perverted version of Lilas in the material world is karma law.. causes and effects.

 

You have agreed that Shri Krishna has desires. If you have identically same desires as those of Shri Krishna, then you will, by the law of Karma, become Krishna.

••if i have some identical desires of yours i do not became you, if now we both desire chocolate we can say that we are unite in this desire and perhaps we go together to a shop to buy it, but that's all, our oneness stops here.

Krsna is the supreme personality of godhead, he has his desires.. i have mine that i manifest purely in spiritual world and perverted if i am under maya's illusion, they are ontological part of my personality, essence, life.. but the existence of my personality, essence and life comes from krsna.. this is essentially the difference. My existence is complete but comes by him and not by me.

 

you become freed from Karma effects, then you have already become Brahman; since only the Brahman is free from the karma law.

••but brahman contains personality, plurality and variety.. so who is free from material bondage, god or realized soul, lives this variety, personality, plurality and so on. If we fall in the material world everything is also there but perverted

 

But, if in that heaven, you are bound to Karma, then it is not the highest heaven.

••i am not speaking of material heavens, svargaloka, gandharvaloka, siddhaloka or simply living as a rich man in the earth.. i am speaking of vaikunta, goloka, transcendental, satcitananda, There's no karma there, only lilas.

 

The knower of Brahman will not return to mortal existence.

••of course, because who knows brahman knows also that brahman is the effulgence of param brahman, vishnu, sri krsna.. supereme PERSONALITY of godhead. As he states in the bhagavad gita

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Guest

 

”You state that all nature is bound to Karma and as Karma controls your soul

••no why? ------ soul is transcendental

••no, individual soul is qualitatively the same with param brahman.. both are sat, cit, ananda... the only difference is in "quantity" and that individual soul gets his existence by the supreme

••soul is never really bounded, ------ illuded by maya to identify himself with the body,

••choosing to come in the material world we have choosen to be illuded and darkened by maya. So we get a material mind who, being not perfect, is very easy to forget, -------- So we live as bodies, we know only the body, we think to exist only when the body exist.”

 

 

You say: Individual souls are also Cit. Soul is transcendental. Brahman and individual souls are different by quantitative aspect only.

 

A quantitative difference of essence is impossible. Essence cannot become bigger or smaller. If you say that “Me as a better person has 100 gm soul and Atanu as an inferior person has 5 gm soul” that would indicate partiality of God. What you probably mean is that in you the essence of soul is fully evident, whereas in Atanu, the essence is not fully manifest because of Avidya.

 

Or, due you mean that elephants have 100kg soul and mosquitoes have 5g soul. If soul has weight then bigger Jivas are favoured.

 

In another way, if CIT is substance, then different portions of CIT will not remain CIT. For example, cutting a table into two pieces will result in 2 different things, different from the starting material and the starting material will also change.

 

On the other hand, if, CIT is spirit (essence), then how can you divide a spirit into different portions? Is it ever possible? Can you divide air, which is grosser than soul.

 

 

In another way, if individual souls are CIT then quantitative differences are not possible. For example, if I pour water from a tumbler into a cup and into glass water does not change.

 

 

”••this comes from the fact that you think that individual soul is subjected to karma. BUT 1)soul and supersoul relationship is transcendental --- as the prison's director enters in the prison but he's not a prisoneer.”

 

Ok. I understand that your position is: that there are individual souls with same CIT but different quantities. These are not bonded but are eternally free. But an individual due to delusion thinks that the individual is bonded but actually is not bonded.

 

Now, if the delusion is eternal, then you are wrong because then one can never be free of bondage of body. Bondage becomes eternal, which you say is not true.

 

On the other hand, if the delusion is temporary (as you think is true) then again you are wrong, since the moment Avidya vanishes, the Oneness shines forth and perception of separateness vanishes. So, there will not be any Bheda as eternal truth.

 

 

”••----- this is the purpose of living in the matter, we as perfect souls live frustrated in a non perfect world, -----.

••yes.. virat rupa, as krsna shows to arjuna ------.

 

••krsna never needs, or there would be a need superior to god... necessarily god is free and all his activities are free, inconceivable for us and made to enjoy ---- his enjoyement and for the pleasure of devotees... variety is the source of pleasure.

Yes in gita is said that krsna comes to bring again religion when irreligion is prevailing (yada yada hi dharmasya..), but ultimately it is his free will to enjoy and to please devotees (paritranaya sadhunam...)

-------- in gaudya's opinion advaita and dvaita are both not perfect.. because god is one, but he contains variety otherwise how maya can have variety?.. because there's variety but we cannot say that there's some kind of existence separated by the whole”

 

 

If soul is CIT, what is the need to create? When soul is already Cit, what needs to be purified through material experiences? You accept in next statement that Krishna through Leela, creates innumerable forms and colours to enjoy variety. So, the need to taste variety is in Brahman only. So the Maya is Brahman’s will only.

 

(Note: Maya has been described as a mirror which may reflect one object in many fashions to create diverse phenomenon, but in itself Maya is not variety).

 

You also say: God contains all – the oneness and variety. He is one CIT but by Leela (through use of Maya Shakti) He projects infinite variety to amuse Himself.

 

 

”So acynthia beda abeda tattva, inconceivably one in quality and different in quantity, we are "madeby god" and "of god" but we are quantitatively different from god. And this is logic but simultaneously inconceivable because in the mundane world it is impossible to see unity and plurality together.”

 

 

You stated that there is delusion because of which individuals think themselves as bodies. And you now say that plurality as perceived and unity of all souls are both inconceivably two truths since in mundane world it is impossible to see the unity and plurality simultaneously.

 

 

This is like a person saying in a dark room: “no chair exists” But when light comes, he sees that there indeed is a chair and he says: “a chair exists”. Then what is the truth. Is there a chair or there is no chair? Both cannot be true at same time.

 

One-ness appearing as differences due to operation of Maya cannot be Oneness and difference both. If Bheda is true then Bheda is true always. Bheda cannot become Abheda on removal of delusion. The truth is God. It is eternal. It cannot depend on removal of Maya. What one perceives as truth on account of Maya cannot be true.

 

I WILL GIVE ANOTHER EXAMPLE HERE:

 

You see a car and say: “this car has no wheels and thus cannot move”. At this time it is your perception of what you see. This has superimposition of Maya since it also your perception that all cars should have wheels.

 

Now, you learn that the car you perceived as a car without wheels does not need wheels and is a complete one car (it has some inbuilt mechanism which acts as wheels).

 

Now, you will modify your perception and say: This car has internal wheels and can move.

 

Through removal of Avidya, your perception has attained the truth but the truth from the beginning was: “This car can move”.

 

 

Truth cannot change. Then it is not truth but Avidya.

 

 

"5. If the expansion is immanent, with distinct boundaries, and not in terms of the same spirit that the Original soul is, then either the immanent expansion is not complete as the original or the source diminishes and therefore does not remain eternally unchanging.

••i have not understood, please re-explain if you want.."

 

 

This has become irrelevant since you accept “distinct souls are qualitatively same”.

 

"If there are millions of different types of matter then there would be equal numbers of eternal souls?

••16400000 species of material bodies (because matter is limited) and infinite number of souls (because spirit is unlimited)"

 

 

You have accepted that each of these souls is qualitatively same. And soul being omnipresent cannot be separated by bodies.

 

It being omnipresent, it is not possible that it does not pervade flesh.

 

Since body is Maya and non-eternal, the apparent many souls partitioned by Maya body cannot be real and eternal. So soul is one eternally.

 

 

"If Brahman and the expanded souls are distinct, then there is no cause and effect. There is no linkage between the cause (Brahman) and the effect (the individual souls).

•••atma and paramatma are as i have explained surely also ONE... "

 

 

You say Atma and Param Atma are surely one. So we have no difference of opinion. You are saying what I have been saying all through.

 

 

"When Vedas say “So Hum”, does it not say that “This and THAT are identical”. It does not say that the soul forgets. You cannot contradict Shruti.

••vedas and vedic scriptures are to be studied as a whole. Impersonalism or advaitism or even buddhism, have surely a logic ------ you discover that beyond the material world and the negation of the material world, there's a spiritual world. For this reason i do not say that brahman realization is false or brahman is not there, i say that there's something beyond"

 

 

We established that in spiritual world the souls have same quality. You stated that differences are due to delusion.

 

If Vedas say: Indra exists, Vayu exists, it is stating apparent facts. To know apparent facts you do not need Vedas. When Vedas state: So Hum, it is stating something that deluded Jiva have no way of knowing. That is the purport of Vedas.

 

Vedas will be of no value, if it were to only say that: Atanu is Jiva. Everyone knows that. But, when it states: “Thou art That”, it is fulfilling a function that no other literature can fulfill.

 

You say: there's something beyond. What is beyond realizing: SO HUM? What is beyond Brahman? We have accepted as the first premise that Brahman is all. So, what can be beyond realizing the truth of Veda: SO HUM?

 

"In sushupti Jiva attains oneness with pure consciousness. Though Maya exists, they do not know of Maya in this state.

••if you obtain any true spiritual achievement in any state of consciousness you do not come back. After liberation you do not come back. The same, you have to interprete vedas and connected literature as the whole."

 

 

Yes that is true. Permanent spiritual attainment does not come out of Shushupti. But, Vedas declare that Shushupti gives a hint of what it is like to be in one-ness with Brahman.

 

Sata saumya tadasampanno bhavati, svayamapito bhavati. Sati sampadya na viduh.

In sushupti Jiva attains oneness with pure consciousness. Though Maya exists, they do not know of Maya in this state.

 

When in Shushpti, Jiva attains oneness with Param Atman and therefore does not recognize Maya (though it exists along side the Jiva).

 

So, if you attain Brahman through your karma/bhakti/jnana and not in sleep, then Maya will not exist for you and you will attain one-ness with Param Atman.

 

 

"Does your personality remain eternally same within Krishna? Next dress of yours may be a rock, will your personality persist?

••at the transcendental level our behaviour can surely change because changement is a feature, and spirit cannot miss any feature-----a rock's body we will mantain the "life" ... very hidden and difficult to perceive for other because it is very heavily covered by maya... it's a rock body!!"

 

 

So, a personality is not eternal. You cannot equate a non-eternal thing to Brahman.

 

 

 

"Non eternal shadows are the manifestations of Maya, but in essence it is One soul.

••and this is our opinions difference... you belief that variety is maya... but maya comes from bhagavan and maya cannot have more features than bhagavan"

 

 

Opinion differs because of different perception of nature of Maya. Maya has no features but has only one quality of reflecting. It is simply a tool with Bhagawan who sees infinite splendor of HIMSELF using it. Maya is approximately like a mirror, using which God sees Himself as Gokul or Atanu. The delusion is that I may think that I see Atanu.

 

 

"••there's no beginning or creation (in western/christian sense)... souls ----, god's eternal parts are obviously eternal.. so we are one with god in eternity-----."

 

 

God’s eternal parts cannot have non-God like qualities.

 

 

" ••there's ----- And The perverted version of Lilas in the material world is karma law.. causes and effects."

 

 

Perverted versions of Leela cannot be taken as truth.

 

 

Dear Auspicious Guest Friend

 

You have mentioned that you recognize Buddha and Shankaracharya as good effects who taught mortal beings that stresses and strifes of material existence are not as real as we think. It is true. But, their teachings are something more. You may not agree but I request you to read on with calmness that is your hallmark.

 

Buddha first stressed that life’s pleasures are fleeting and are actually the cause of much pain. He did not much emphasize the eternity. But Sankara, changed my perspective. I first realized that he was an eternity man. Then, I also realized that I can also be that eternity.

 

With our focus on material existence, we do not see the all pervading Brahman. When a jiva shifts the focus, to the Brahman -- within, without and everywhere -- the whole perspective changes. Like, during a frightening dream, it is not possible to think that there is a pleasurable waking life, similarly facing the difficulties of waking life; it is difficult to imagine that there is an eternal blissful life beyond the waking bodily life.

 

Siva-Ramana-Sankara did this for me. Every jiva has some especial emotional requirement, so there are several paths. All lead to same place. There are also some differences as to what that special final place is like. But, is it that important to know? It is better to reach there according to whatever method suits one’s temperament (your term personality).

 

I am sometimes pained with reactions in this site. But then I understand, painful reactions come so that one can transcend them.

 

So, everything is necessary.

 

I may not be able to reply to your posts for sometime due to certain pre occupation. Still I will try.

 

 

Atanu

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest guest

A quantitative difference of essence is impossible. Essence cannot become bigger or smaller.

••yes.. as many definitions of vedas regarding quantity it is symbolic... the essential concept is that paramatma is the source of the atma's existence

 

Ok. I understand that your position is: that there are individual souls with same CIT but different quantities.

••no cit is cit... no quantity

 

But an individual due to delusion thinks that the individual is bonded but actually is not bonded.

••no it is an external force.. maya.. we want to forget god and god gives forgetfulness through his energy.. maya

 

Now, if the delusion is eternal, then you are wrong because then one can never be free of bondage of body. Bondage becomes eternal, which you say is not true.

••this is very true and clever... we are called technically "eternally conditioned", because if god or his representatives do not come in this world (yada, yada hi dharmasya..) to show us where we come from, and they do not give their mercy, the power to quit we remain here eternally, because karma calls other karma.

 

the Oneness shines forth and perception of separateness vanishes

••if it vanishes, relative has something more of the absolute

 

When soul is already Cit, what needs to be purified through material experiences?

••material experiences do not purificate anything neither pollute anything.. the only thing is that someone desires to forget and maya gives the forgetfulness. We remain sat ct ananda souls and we quit this material world when, by the mercy of god, we decide to get out from illusion

 

You accept in next statement that Krishna through Leela, creates innumerable forms and colours to enjoy variety. So, the need to taste variety is in Brahman only.

••no creation.. emanation... krsna, his words, his associates, the jivas and so on are contemporary.. eternal

 

So the Maya is Brahman’s will only.

••yes.. param brahman's energy... if there's an energy there's a person who gives and controls it

 

(Note: Maya has been described as a mirror which may reflect one object in many fashions to create diverse phenomenon, but in itself Maya is not variety).

••oh no problem, it is a different style to say the same thing... maya means "what is not" so it is illusion and the energy who generates and sustain illusion, Reflection is a good definition because existence is real and maya distorts the real perception of existence. You are a soul and , by the maya's distortion, i see you as a material body.

 

This is like a person saying in a dark room: “no chair exists” But when light comes, he sees that there indeed is a chair and he says: “a chair exists”. Then what is the truth. Is there a chair or there is no chair? Both cannot be true at same time.

••the first perception is false.. chair exists.... it's existence does not depend by the fact that i see it or not. China exist even if i never was in china

 

The truth is God. It is eternal. It cannot depend on removal of Maya.

••yes, my darkness is only my problem.. the existence of god does not depends by my perception.. i am not the source of god's existence

 

What one perceives as truth on account of Maya cannot be true.

••yes.. but oneness and simultaneous difference is not possible to perceive in the maya's world as we have already said. But at the at the absolute level is not possible to avoid it. God has to be one with us because nothing is outside god, but god as to be also different because if plurality is in the relative world, it has to exist also in the absolute one

 

Through removal of Avidya, your perception has attained the truth but the truth from the beginning was: “This car can move”.

••no.. knowing that a car is a car as a whole object but also an union of separated objects like wheels, motor, doors and so on . My idea of car is of a thing made by many pieces, if some pieces are missing the car starts to be no more a car. So we can say that a car without wheels is still a car but also that it is no more a car because it's use as a car is impossible.

 

And soul being omnipresent cannot be separated by bodies.

••omnipresence and separation are not opposite concepts

 

Since body is Maya and non-eternal, the apparent many souls partitioned by Maya body cannot be real and eternal.

••no.. there's anything out of god, maya is inside god, material world is inside god.. so also bodies are god's energy and they are worn by individual souls that are god's energy

maya cannot work indipendently and in opposition to god.. this is an approach similar to christians.. satan and jesus, heaven and hell.

So everything is real, souls variety is real and bodies variety is real.

 

We established that in spiritual world the souls have same quality. You stated that differences are due to delusion.

••where?

 

If Vedas say: Indra exists, Vayu exists, it is stating apparent facts. To know apparent facts you do not need Vedas.

••the facts you have said are not apparent, vedas do not simply say "there's variety", they show this variety in details.. god, devatas, planets, lilas, saints, behaviours, rasas and so on. And these thing s aren't apparent

 

Vedas will be of no value, if it were to only say that: Atanu is Jiva. Everyone knows that.

••no.. most peole would say that atanu is body, he's born in 19xx and he will die in 20xx. To know that there's an eternal, satcitananda jiva who's now wearing a body called Atanu to fulfill his desire to act separated by krsna is not a common understanding..

 

You say: there's something beyond. What is beyond realizing: SO HUM? What is beyond Brahman? We have accepted as the first premise that Brahman is all. So, what can be beyond realizing the truth of Veda: SO HUM?

••as i have said, for many reasons, for logic, in my opinion and in the opinion of my school of thought "so ham" means "i am made of the same god's matter" the next realization (this is the "beyond") is that i am different symbolically in quantity and for the fact that my existence is emanated and sustained by god

 

But, Vedas declare that Shushupti gives a hint of what it is like to be in one-ness with Brahman.

••and it is possible.. a hint.. an image.. for the same principle there's personalist pratictioneers who say that they have feel the presence of krsna, jesus, allah, vishnu and so on....

 

So, a personality is not eternal. You cannot equate a non-eternal thing to Brahman.

••if we have personalities in material world, we must have them in the spiritual one... material world is birth and death, so a personality manifested by identification with the body is subjected ny birth and death..... but we have also personality in the absolute, so the personality of god and of his associates are real and eternal

 

so there's relative and absolute also in personality

 

Opinion differs because of different perception of nature of Maya

••of course you think that my perception is caused by maya and i think the opposite... this is due to opinion's difference.. the opinion can be equal, different, compatible, uncompatible, identical, partially identical and so on

 

It is simply a tool with Bhagawan who sees infinite splendor of HIMSELF using it. Maya is approximately like a mirror, using which God sees Himself as Gokul or Atanu.

••it seems to me that you are depicting maya as the absolute reality beyond god. God does not need anything to see anything and what god sees is not subjected by maya, illusion, so if god sees the jiva with the atanu body, it means that this jiva has a real existence... united but simultaneously also separated by god... who see because there's something else. If i see there's me seeing and some other who is seen.

 

God’s eternal parts cannot have non-God like qualities.

••this contraddicts your statements about the illusory aspect of individuality... so parts are there, and if they exist they are eternal

 

" ••there's ----- And The perverted version of Lilas in the material world is karma law.. causes and effects."

Perverted versions of Leela cannot be taken as truth.

••no.. because pervertion is caused by perverted vision, inspiration, resemblance... lila exist, material activity exist.. the absolute is the source of the relative, the relative to be relative has to be perverted by birth, death and disease.. everything very logic

 

Buddha first stressed that life’s pleasures are fleeting and are actually the cause of much pain. He did not much emphasize the eternity. But Sankara, changed my perspective. I first realized that he was an eternity

••yes.. shankara acharya is a big progress... oneness is inconceivably more evolute in comparison with no existence or no transcendence

 

it is difficult to imagine that there is an eternal blissful life beyond the waking bodily life.

••yes, this is impossible, not difficult.... only god himself or he through his representatives can give this perception to us

 

Every jiva has some especial emotional requirement, so there are several paths. All lead to same place

•it depends, everyone has his individuality and some degree of illusion or no illusion but tastes.. one can take one of the wrong paths one can take one of the right paths

 

There are also some differences as to what that special final place is like. But, is it that important to know?

••it is very important because god, as stated in gita, gives us what we want... wrong goals, intermediate goals, final goals, himself, devatas, phantoms, demons, real masters or cheaters.. so we have to be very careful on what is to desire. If you want rasagullas you have to go to rasagulla's shop, not to saree's shop

 

It is better to reach there according to whatever method suits one’s temperament (your term personality).

••mmh.. material temperament is not absolute... better to use also logic, practice and study... and a pure master to help ourselves to choose the right path and goal

 

I am sometimes pained with reactions in this site. But then I understand, painful reactions come so that one can transcend them.

••we are making our discussion in a very educate and correct way and to answer we are using all our spiritual culture, in this way it is like we are explaining our ideas to ourselves. In this way we check if we are really convinced or not, or we resolve doubts (studying scriptures and acharyas... or praying) if they arise giving explanation to the other... so discussing in a civil and honest manner we are making abslolutely no karma, no bad actions, nothing that we have to pay in future

 

I may not be able to reply to your posts for sometime due to certain pre occupation. Still I will try.

••oh no problem... for now i deeply thank you for the nice discussion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...