Can Krishna make a rock which He cannot lift?

[Subala]

Common thing which devotees get asked by their parents.... (like mine) I was asked this like 3 months after I started living in the temple and quite franckly I couldn't answer this Q at that time.

 

Later on I found one answer ( yes he can create a rock which He cannot lift and then He will lift it) then i heard Prabhupada giving analogy of the King. Definition ofthe King means RICH. So one may argue well King has everything but he does not have poverty.... Not valid argument. KING=RICH.

 

Does anyone has better or similar answers on this kind of questions?

[Guest guest]

the problem is that having a limited mind we do not understand the unlimited

 

more difficult also is to understand that the unlimited is constantly expanding

 

this has also to do with impersonalism: it is more easy for us to think about infinite as a fixed blue sky without variety and dinamism if not some white clouds ad some white dressed angels flying in boring Andreas Wollenveider melodies (but with a nice surround effect!!)

 

(if krsha is the most rich (bhagavan) can he create a thing that he cannot buy?..... yes... then he buy it!! :-).....

[Subala]

it is a good example but is not as vivid as in case of king=rich by SP.

 

 

[Guest guest]

it was not my intention to appear more vivid than srila prabhupada............ :-)

[Guest guest]

 

that is an old christian meditation, in fact the question

is based on ignorance of what god is.

 

the rock of any size, is infact comprised of God, therefore God is not actually lifting something,

only creating the illusion of lifting, being both subject and object, both are one substance, therefore on the absolute level the rock can lift god or vice versa, that is if you define God as an individual embodied person,

both the rock and 'god' are tranformations of the same

thing, God the infinite/energy/consciousness.

 

so in effect, No, god cannot create a rock to big to lift,

everything in existence exists within God as part of God,

although the illusion of God(Krsna) lifting some big

object(govardhana hill) can be created, in fact both the hill and the person are the same thing.

[Guest guest]

you are right.... it is a paradox created by srila prabhupad to answer to a challenge (maybe in india in a pandal program)

 

but we can find this in CaitanyaMahaprabhu

 

it is said that even krsna does not understand the love of RADHA and his pure devotees......... but he comes as a pure devotee (caitanya mahaprabhu..... krsna in the "skin" of radharani), he "experiment" and "understand"............ and he lifts the rock!!!

 

of course we are speaking of very esoteric subjects, any term of "material" language is inadeguate

 

(weight, rock, understand, experiment, lift, creates.. and so on)

.

.

.

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God IS (also) an individual (spiritually) embodied (satcitananda vigraha) person!!

 

if you are a person, where have you found your personality if not in god?

 

haribol

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

This is a very good question which atheists ask. The question arises because western people do not know what exactly GOD is ?

 

If one reads Upanishads then it can be explained ontologically.

 

The following points about what is GOD is important.

 

1. GOD is the only independent entity.

 

2. Matter, Jivas etc. are entities whose very existence depends on GOD. GOD is the the SELF of all these other entities. It means GOD is AdhAra(support in every sense) of all these other entities. HE pervades all these other entities.

 

3. Every other entity exists and moves, Jivas live, breathe, think, talk and do every other activity because of this entity called GOD. Even free will(to wish for something) exists because GOD allows it.

 

If the above points are clear then one can understand that there is no such rock that GOD cannot move. There is nothing outside of GOD. Everything exists, moves etc. because of GOD and not vice-versa.

[Guruvani]

A Godbrother once told me about the concept of UN-BONA-FIDE questions. He said that all the bona-fide questions have been asked in the shastra and that the answers to all bona-fide questions are in the shastra - especially the Srimad Bhagavatam.

There are so many stupid and ridiculous questions that could be used to pester and bother the spiritual master with, but as Prabhupada repeated time and time again "everything I have to say, I have said in my books".

 

It is actually offensive to ask silly, foolish questions to the spiritual master. He is busy with the work of preaching the absolute truth and should not be bothered with such nonsensical questions.

 

I was reading some articles on the web site devoted to Narayana Maharaja the other day and some disciple was asking him some silly question about having dreams. Narayana Maharaja was telling him that the dreams don't mean anything and have no basis in reality and that he shouldn't bother with trying to find something spiritual in the dream.

 

This is what they think it means to approach the spiritual master; that you need to ask some silly, ridiculous question and thereby try to establish some rapport with the guru.

 

These kinds of questions are a nuisance to the spiritual master. In the days when ISKCON was growing and expanding at phenomenal rates, Srila Prabhupada did not allow his translation and preaching to be interrupted with this so-called "personal connection" with the spiritual master that everybody nowadays claims is so vital.

 

The spiritual master has got better things to do than set around answering stupid questions from neophyte disciples.

Any spiritual master that don't have anything better to do than waste time answering stupid UN-BONA-FIDE questions is not a genuine spiritual master.

[Guest guest]

That was excellent Raguraman. There is one other point, however. Whatever God desires, manifests itself. So if God desires to create a rock that He cannot lift, such a rock is immediately manifested. However, if He changes His mind and decides He would like to lift it, no problem, He lifts it.

 

Whatever God decides is reality, that is reality. So your point that no such rock exists that God cannot lift, I believe not to be correct. If He wishes such a rock to exist, it is manifested, no problem. Then If He decides He wants to lift it, again no problem, He simply lifts it.

 

Just because Krishna is God, doesn't mean he cannot be bound by the ropes of Mother Yasoda, if that is what He desires.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

The question apparently may look foolish. One may wonder what good can come out to society or himself by asking such questions.

 

But before going into self-realization one has to understand through intelligence something about GOD. That is why I appreciate such questions from atheists. They dispell some of your false conceptions you have.

As for "Can Lord Krishna create a rock he cannot lift" if one answers "yes" or "no" there is a problem of questioning the OMNIPOTENCE of GOD.

 

That is why I try to understand what GOD is ontologically.

 

If somebody asks a scientist "what is outside the universe ?", he would say that UNIVERSE by its very definition includes everything.

 

In a similar fassion there is no such rock as that which GOD cannot move. You may still think that this answer shows some inability on GOD's part. My answer is definitely no.

 

Still GOD is omnipotent because whatever exists, it's very existence is dependent on GOD.

 

There is nothing outside of GOD (physically and in every sense). Please try to understand and meditate on what I am trying to say.

 

Omnipotent means all powerful. Only an independent entity as explained in Upanishads can be omnipotent.

Let me rephrase the question ?

 

Can GOD create another GOD(Different from the first GOD) that exists independently like HIMSELF ?

The atheists' question has a deeper philosophical problem.

 

The only answer I have found is in UPANISHADS. No other spiritual text is as PERFECT as the UPANISHADS.

 

Your contention that GOD can create a rock that cannot lift and later he will lift has a problem. I cannot understand your answer logically. If GOD lifts the rock then you are saying in effect that GOD cannot create a rock that he cannot lift.

[Guest guest]

Raguramam, you are trying to make God conform or be subserviant to logic. He is above logic.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Raguramam, you are trying to make God conform or be subserviant to logic. He is above logic.

 

 

On the contrary, I believe in what Upanishads say again. My thoughts originate from Lord Krishna in my heart, who is the SELF as explained in the Upanishads. My logic originates from the blessings and teachings of Lord Krishna's devotees like Acarya Madhva and the great saint Sri Raghavendra Swamy.

[Guest guest]

Apparently Raguraman think she can communicate with Paramatma in the heart, considered by shastra to be the second level of realization! I'll stick with gaining my knowledge from scripture.

 

Krishna can lift a rock too heavy for Him and then not lift it. To say otherwise indicates either a lack of faith or else a willingness to try to appease others by falling to the mental platform. There will never be a materially satisfying answer. We are trying to wrap our material minds around a spiriutal concept and activities that go on in a spiritual, unlimited, realm. Then we will never be satisfied. Our limited logic has nothing to do with it, shastra does.

 

Guest 108

[Guest guest]

for me there's no harm... i am simply remembering srila prabhupada answering with an elegant paradox to a challenging speculation

[Subala]

Yes it is not bona-fide question to ask... Can God create rock...

 

I just remembered another answer - Krishna creates rock which he cannot lift and then Balarama comes and lifts it...

 

I think it is more comprehendable answer to the challenger... (which he cannot comprehend what i just said anyway.... because it goes right over his head)

 

Krishna makes rock he cannot lift and Balarama at a same time lifts that rock.

[Guest guest]

you miss the point of the question, it is similar to the buddhist koan, questions that are illogical on first inspection,they are not meant as question with an answer,

they are meant to be meditated on to raise your consciousness by trying to see the inner truth of the question.

 

what is the sound of one hand clapping ?

 

that is the most famous buddhist koan, the rock and god

question ,i think is an old catholic koan,

the point is to meditate on the nature of God and reality, if you say yes, god can create a rock to heavy to

lift, then that is true on one level, meditation is needed

to come to the proper conclusion, God can manifest as

a human or animal and be unable to lift a large rock,

also God exists everywhere and all things exist

as part and parcel of God, therefore on the absolute

plane nothing exists that is not comprised of God,

therefore the question has a dual meaning to meditate on, Gods ability to create the illusion of inferior

strength ,and Gods absolute nature , where all matter

in the infinite cosmos is a transformation of God,

and therefore there can be no such reality

as something larger or heavier then Gods ability,

in fact any size rock exists only as an atom within the infinite, when there is no end to a being, as in Gods case, all things relative to the infinite are no

more then infinitesimal.

[Subala]

it may be so,

 

I was looking into more to give simple "yes" answer to the challenge and move on. No time to meditate on the inner meanings....

[Guest guest]

Haribol, sure he can. Its called yogamaya. Yogamaya lets Mother Yasoda bind him to a mortar.

 

 

Square circles, ropes with only one end, only barbaric minds full of paradigms have problems with contradictions. Even theoretical physicists with their multiverse and string theories have conquered seeming contradictions, and they are but a spark of the splendor of the Supreme Lord. haribol, mahak

[Guest guest]

what is that ?

the dilettants method of god consciousness ?

 

no need for deep thought,just accept things at first

glance ?

 

puh-leze !

 

the catholic church has been operating at that level

for many years, the simpletons approach to self realization.

 

i've seen many posts from vaisnavas with incomplete

mis informed and polytheistic versions of god

consciousness,all due to being satisfied with

the external ego driven ideal of self sureness.

 

move on if you like, i'll take it slow.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

Shastra has to be understood through LOGIC. Otherwise each person can interpret it as he wants it. Any language by itself has to be a logical construction of words. Otherwise we cannot understand each other.

 

 

Apparently Raguraman think she can communicate with Paramatma in the heart, considered by shastra to be the second level of realization! I'll stick with gaining my knowledge from scripture.

 

 

 

Apparently you do not understand what I was trying to say. I have come to this conclusion after having understood the teachings of AchArya Madhva and AchArya RAmAnujA. I have read the ten pricipal upanishads and bhashyas of AchArYa MaDhva. Unless you think something is wrong in my interpretation according to Upanishads your statements are unfounded.

 

By the way I am not talking to Krishna in my heart, but surely He is guiding me through the teachings of HIS great devotees. That is what I meant.

 

 

Krishna can lift a rock too heavy for Him and then not lift it. To say otherwise indicates either a lack of faith or else a willingness to try to appease others by falling to the mental platform.

 

 

Know one thing. There is no such rock. Whatever exists, it's very existence depends on GOD. This is perfectly in accordance with shastra.

 

Know that Prakriti and Purusha are both beginningless; and also know that all manifestations and Gunas arise from the Prakriti. (13.19)

 

There is no nonexistence of the Sat (or Atma) and no existence of the Asat. The reality of these two is indeed certainly seen by the seers of truth. (2.16)

 

Consider the two statements from Bhagavad Gita.

 

[13:19] says that besides GOD both purusa and Prakrithi are eternal. So there are three eternal entities that always exist.

1. GOD

2. Jivas

3. Matter or Prakrithi

 

[2:16] says that SAT never becomes nonexistent and also ASAT never comes into existence. So

 

SAT = What exists eternally

 

ASAT = What does not exist

 

So the rock = ASAT.

GOD supports(AdhAra) the other two eternal entities namely Jivas and Prakrithi. Their mere existence depends on GOD.

 

Implies such a rock = ASAT

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

As for what our GURU said, its alright. I can understand what he meant. But one should not repeat like a parrot.

[Guest guest]

We preach according time and place.

 

Sometimes quoting sastra is the best way to convey the knowledge and in most cases preaching to the atheists it is not. This is why we use anology which supports sastra.

 

Well and on a top of this - one can study sastra via logic but you can't explain who is Krishna by logic alone. Krishna surya saman, we use anology.

 

this was my point of the thread.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Krishna makes the rock from His Mindstuff, therefore the whole experience of lifting or not lifting is a thought in the mind of God. Just as is all the Universes and All the variety of creatures that are dreamed up.

 

The dreamer dreams the dream of time, space, and the many diverse phenomena. Do not be too concerned with "the rock" but let the drop of the indivual merge with the Ocean that is God. Everything is God. The Creation and the Creator. There is nothing other than God. Read your Gita and visit:

 

http://members.lycos.co.uk/chakrayogaholistic/

 

Love and Light,

 

Krishna

[maadhav]

he can make anything.

and if you are his devotee,

he will lift it for you,

or says, "i cannot lift it",

and then no one can lift it or even half of it.

 

 

 

[Dravidian]

The problem with this question is the way it is worded. It is worded in such a way as to make it seem that God cannot do something. If God creates a stone that he cannot lift, then there is something he cannot do....lift the stone. The other negative is that if God can lift any stone, then he cannot create a stone that he cannot lift. So it's a "trap" question if you will.

 

The way to answer this qustion is to say that God can creat any stone, and God can lift any rock.

 

Convention still fails in the light of Truth.