URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

[Guest guest]

hi sharon,

 

I think that there is tremendous pressure as a teen to fit in.

my oldest soon is eight years old.

 

He gets teased at shchool, not only for veganism, but for lots of

other things.

his hair, his clothes, his accent. It seems that they are just looking

for something to pick at.

 

I don't blame teens for wanting to " just fit in " at whatever cost.

 

Teasing because you are different, hurts.

 

 

 

, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace

wrote:

>

> Fraggle, I am absolutely astounded at how thoughtless and

hard-hearted even my own children can be. Even my 18-year old son,

who is a generally kind and loving person, who sat and watched

" Earthlings " with me the other day, went out this morning and had a

meat-laden omelet. I do rather believe this one will come along

eventually. With me, it's kind of like the light was always there but

I had on these dark glasses, and I think he will take his glasses off

one day. But even my daughter who has been staunchly vegetarian for

over a year resists going vegan.

>

> Why? You tell me. I don't get it.

>

> Sharon

>

[Guest guest]

I got my first job when I was fifteen years old.

then I bought my own things, but by that time my eating

habits were established.

 

but up until then, my mom bought all the food.

 

I trusted her to make decisions on food for me, because I knew

in my heart that when she said no to that Twinkie, she

had my best interest in her heart.

 

I was glad she said no to some things like soda, for instance.

I needed someone to control my five year old self.

today, as an adult, I have no desire for soda.

 

-anouk

 

 

, fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

>

> and i said everyone was different, and looked at it differently/is

going to have different feelings

> everyone draws lines somewhere...

>

> if i was 20 and living with my parents i'd prolly would have gone mad

>

> just cuz i was 20 and still at home

> but..seriously...my parents bought what they wanted....

> if i wanted something else, then, that was up to me....

>

>

[Guest guest]

That's terrible for an eight-year-old to have to deal with. Don't the teachers at least try to stop it?

carolyn

 

-

flower child

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 10:07 PM

Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

 

hi sharon, I think that there is tremendous pressure as a teen to fit in. my oldest soon is eight years old. He gets teased at shchool, not only for veganism, but for lots of other things. his hair, his clothes, his accent. It seems that they are just looking for something to pick at. I don't blame teens for wanting to "just fit in" at whatever cost. Teasing because you are different, hurts. , Sharon Murch <compassion2gracewrote:>> Fraggle, I am absolutely astounded at how thoughtless andhard-hearted even my own children can be. Even my 18-year old son,who is a generally kind and loving person, who sat and watched"Earthlings" with me the other day, went out this morning and had ameat-laden omelet. I do rather believe this one will come alongeventually. With me, it's kind of like the light was always there butI had on these dark glasses, and I think he will take his glasses offone day. But even my daughter who has been staunchly vegetarian forover a year resists going vegan. > > Why? You tell me. I don't get it.> > Sharon>

[Guest guest]

I think fraggle is a parent.

no he won't go to pta meetings or soccer practice but his children

are jsut as meaningful and the love he feels is just as strong

as if they where his own children.

 

You are right, it helps tremendously if both parents have the same

goal for their children. It is easier because my husband is vegan.

my three year old was born vegan, knows nothing else.

 

I think what you are doing with your children is a good compromise.

 

 

 

, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> not a parent are you Fraggle? ( fur babies aside ), you are assuming

that both parents are vegan to start. In my case my wife is a (zombie)

flesheater, and so we brought our kids up as vegetarian rather than

vegan as a compromise. I think compromise is good.

> If drano was a foodstuff then I suppose ?.............my brain

hurts.......

>

> The Valley Vegan..................

[Guest guest]

thank you, anouk.

flower child <zurumato Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:41:11 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

hi sharon, I think it is good that you model compassion. Every child would wantthat in a mom. I'm glad yu are, this world seems to have too manycold people. -anouk@gro ups.com, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@ ...>wrote:>> My children aren't even teens ... they are young adults. It is notthat they are rebelling, it is that I "forced" meat-eating andmilk-drinking on them from early childhood. Now I have made a changeand they don't want to follow. As young adults, they are in aposition to make their own decisions. Hopefully they will decidedifferently one day. >

[Guest guest]

Recently, the editor of our high school newspaper wrote an anti-vegetarian editorial. I have to tell you, it's not the first time I have wondered about the future of our country or the competence of the journalism instructor when I have read the school paper. One of the thing she said is that we are fooling ourselves if we think we are important enough to convince the meat industry to be more humane by not eating meat. Ever since then, my 7th grader has been hearing this at middle school. She tells them that she saves 95 lives a year by not eating meat.

 

So then they go on to the next argument, that the editor also gave, that vegetarianism isn't healthy, and that books on vegetarianism advise that if you want to remain healthy on a vegetarian diet you have to eat an avocado a day! I have read a ton of books on vegetarianism but have yet to come across this particular piece of advice. One of our assistant principals has been a vegetarian for years, and is also a triathalete. But facts aren't important to the kids.

 

However, there are a fair number of committed vegetarians among the kids at the middle school.

 

Sharon

flower child <zurumato Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:07:51 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

hi sharon, I think that there is tremendous pressure as a teen to fit in. my oldest soon is eight years old. He gets teased at shchool, not only for veganism, but for lots of other things. his hair, his clothes, his accent. It seems that they are just looking for something to pick at. I don't blame teens for wanting to "just fit in" at whatever cost. Teasing because you are different, hurts. @gro ups.com, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@ ...>wrote:>> Fraggle, I am absolutely astounded at how thoughtless andhard-hearted even my own children can be. Even my 18-year old son,who is a generally kind and loving person, who sat and watched"Earthlings" with me the other day, went out this morning and had ameat-laden omelet. I do rather believe this one will come alongeventually. With

me, it's kind of like the light was always there butI had on these dark glasses, and I think he will take his glasses offone day. But even my daughter who has been staunchly vegetarian forover a year resists going vegan. > > Why? You tell me. I don't get it.> > Sharon>

[Guest guest]

I think that children should have choices, as many choices as

possible, because this makes them feel valid as people and in control

of themselves.

 

but I have seen parents go haywires and give kids too many choices

and the kids turn out to be brats. nobody wants to be around these

spoiled kids.

 

children need guidance, they are born helpless.

 

a BALANCE is needed. a parent should not be a dictator and say

you must do things this way because I say so.

 

but on the other hand, a parent shouldn't turn into mush and let

the kid do and eat whatever they want.

 

when I turned him from vegetarian to vegan he was four years old.

It was not a dictatorship, nor a radical change. It was a slow

gradual elimnation of animal foods.

 

just like most people turn vegan, it took us many months so that he didn't

even notice that I wasn't buying eggs anymore.

 

a dictatorship is supposed to be a bad evil oppresor, yet my kids

refrigerator was stocked full of vegan " versions " of ice cream and pizza.

 

Every parents wants the best for their kids. My intentions are the same.

I believe that this is the best for my children.

(and have done the research)

 

-anouk

 

 

, peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all.

> radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not a

dictatorship?

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

> i do not agree that not purchasing dead flesh fer yer

kids equals dictatorship

>

>

[Guest guest]

hi geraldine,

 

I like how you wrote that!

Maybe it was your parents generation and unless they knew Donald

Watson, there were very few

vegans back then. It was hard as heck to be a vegetarian in the 70's

and 80's when I was a little girl.

 

I agree,

even though I don't like it I think it is healthy for my 8 year old to

question me.

 

I like it when he has his own personality different from mine, with

his own views.

 

I do not own my child, and want him to be a free thinker, that

means questioning everything, everyone

including me.

 

there are ways to disagree about any food, without yelling, or

hurting each other.

 

lot's of patience, the right words, genuine caring.

 

 

 

, " Geraldine McCarthy "

<geraldine.mccarthy wrote:

>

> Hi Sharon,

>

> We are all " conditioned " as children to eat particular foods. As a

child myself I was brought up in a meat eating family - encouraged to

drink milk and eat meat. I myself in later years when married and

with a child of my own also brought up my son the same way.

>

> I didn't become a vegetarian until I was in my early forties - this

was due to animal welfare issues that I had heard about on radio and

tv. After a few years of being vegetarian I then decided to become a

vegan. I suddenly thought one day I cannot be a part of what was

going on within the meat industry /dairy industry - I had to take that

further step and become a vegan.

>

> What I am saying here is that we all have to make our own choices in

life. Our children will do the same - I made my choice of becoming a

vegan because for me it was right - and I am glad to have made that

decision. Although, I wish I had taken that step a lot earlier in my

life. My brother and sister are still meat eaters - that is their choice.

>

> We bring our children up to be independant and to make their own

decisions - not always to our liking I know. My parents who

unfortunately are not alive now would be horrified to know that I had

become a vegan but hey ho - but for me this is the path I wish to

follow.

>

> Geraldine

>

>

[Guest guest]

thanks sharon, i never thought of it that way,

I felt that our government is some sort of dictatorship

when a nurse told me that my newborn needed this that and the other

shot. I was very young, naive and trusting.

She said he must get his vaccines or else he won't be allowed to

go to school.

 

I started to question and do research on the internet.

for instance, why would a baby need the hepatitis vaccine,

an adult sexually transmitted disease?

 

they don't want you to question and have a brain of your own.

I am no longer a robot who just does what they want.

 

-anouk

 

, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace

wrote:

>

> I recall from my political science classes a million years ago,

hearing that there is no better form of government than a BENEVOLENT

dictatorship.

>

> Yes, that is a family.

>

> Only the subjects sometimes don't see it that way. ;-)

>

> Sharon

>

>

>

> peter VV <swpgh01

>

> Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:41:22 PM

> Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism

Act vot Monday

>

> every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all.

> radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not a

dictatorship?

>

> The Valley Vegan....... .......

>

>

[Guest guest]

If there is a choice between participating in the injustice

that is being done to animals

 

and pleasing children.

 

then I chose the animals.

 

-anouk

 

 

 

and i'm talking about in your own home

what yer kids do outside is their own deal(of course, up to a

limit..unless fer some reason ya'll think its ok that yer kids turn

into axe -wielding maniacs er something..er hitler..er rush limbaugh

er something)

(thems the jokes)

how is it being a dictator saying " sorry, i'm not buying you milk " ?

thats what i'm talking about....

 

jo

Nov 15, 2006 2:27 PM

Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act

vot Monday

 

We're not talking about children - we're talking about adult

children - and you can't be a dictator to them. If they want to be

vegan you can't stop them and if they want to drink milk you can't

stop them. You do not stop loving your children when you change your

own lifestyle (which is your own choice).

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

I thought that too - before I had children.

 

Jo

 

, " flower child " <zurumato

wrote:

>

> I think fraggle is a parent.

> no he won't go to pta meetings or soccer practice but his children

> are jsut as meaningful and the love he feels is just as strong

> as if they where his own children.

>

> You are right, it helps tremendously if both parents have the same

> goal for their children. It is easier because my husband is vegan.

> my three year old was born vegan, knows nothing else.

>

> I think what you are doing with your children is a good compromise.

>

>

>

> , peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > not a parent are you Fraggle? ( fur babies aside ), you are

assuming

> that both parents are vegan to start. In my case my wife is a

(zombie)

> flesheater, and so we brought our kids up as vegetarian rather than

> vegan as a compromise. I think compromise is good.

> > If drano was a foodstuff then I suppose ?.............my brain

> hurts.......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan..................

>

[Guest guest]

HI Anouk

 

I think you have made my point really - it may be fine to make the

decision for a four year old, but not for a grown up in your family.

 

I think the more decisions a child can make for themselves the better

they will be as adults - not following what other children do, or

what other adults tell them to do - just because they are used to

being told. Making their own decisions, within guidelines, is good

for their brains.

 

I gave my children choices from very young, along with reasons to do

or not to do certain things, and lots of love. Luckily, they are not

swayed by emotional blackmail from people who see things differently

to them.

 

Jo

 

, " flower child " <zurumato

wrote:

>

> I think that children should have choices, as many choices as

> possible, because this makes them feel valid as people and in

control

> of themselves.

>

> but I have seen parents go haywires and give kids too many choices

> and the kids turn out to be brats. nobody wants to be around these

> spoiled kids.

>

> children need guidance, they are born helpless.

>

> a BALANCE is needed. a parent should not be a dictator and say

> you must do things this way because I say so.

>

> but on the other hand, a parent shouldn't turn into mush and let

> the kid do and eat whatever they want.

>

> when I turned him from vegetarian to vegan he was four years old.

> It was not a dictatorship, nor a radical change. It was a slow

> gradual elimnation of animal foods.

>

> just like most people turn vegan, it took us many months so that he

didn't

> even notice that I wasn't buying eggs anymore.

>

> a dictatorship is supposed to be a bad evil oppresor, yet my kids

> refrigerator was stocked full of vegan " versions " of ice cream and

pizza.

>

> Every parents wants the best for their kids. My intentions are the

same.

> I believe that this is the best for my children.

> (and have done the research)

>

> -anouk

>

>

> , peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all.

> > radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is

not a

> dictatorship?

> >

> > The Valley Vegan..............

> >

> > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@> wrote:

> > i do not agree that not purchasing dead flesh fer yer

> kids equals dictatorship

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

HI Anouk

 

It's the 'in your own home' that bugs me a little, as though you are

the only one who counts in that household. It is also 'their' home -

because you chose to give birth to them and presumably because you

love them.

 

Jo

 

 

, " flower child " <zurumato

wrote:

>

> If there is a choice between participating in the injustice

> that is being done to animals

>

> and pleasing children.

>

> then I chose the animals.

>

> -anouk

>

>

>

> and i'm talking about in your own home

> what yer kids do outside is their own deal(of course, up to a

> limit..unless fer some reason ya'll think its ok that yer kids turn

> into axe -wielding maniacs er something..er hitler..er rush limbaugh

> er something)

> (thems the jokes)

> how is it being a dictator saying " sorry, i'm not buying you milk " ?

> thats what i'm talking about....

>

>

> jo

> Nov 15, 2006 2:27 PM

>

> Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism

Act

> vot Monday

>

> We're not talking about children - we're talking about adult

> children - and you can't be a dictator to them. If they want to be

> vegan you can't stop them and if they want to drink milk you can't

> stop them. You do not stop loving your children when you change

your

> own lifestyle (which is your own choice).

>

> Jo

>

[Guest guest]

I know what you mean, anouk! My big thing was the fact that they made it a law that I had to send my kids to school!

flower child <zurumato Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:51:38 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

thanks sharon, i never thought of it that way,I felt that our government is some sort of dictatorshipwhen a nurse told me that my newborn needed this that and the othershot. I was very young, naive and trusting. She said he must get his vaccines or else he won't be allowed to go to school. I started to question and do research on the internet. for instance, why would a baby need the hepatitis vaccine,an adult sexually transmitted disease? they don't want you to question and have a brain of your own. I am no longer a robot who just does what they want. -anouk@gro ups.com, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@ ...>wrote:>> I recall from my political science classes a million years ago,hearing that there is no better form of government than a BENEVOLENTdictatorship. > > Yes,

that is a family.> > Only the subjects sometimes don't see it that way. ;-)> > Sharon> > > > peter VV <swpgh01 >> @gro ups.com> Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:41:22 PM> Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise TerrorismAct vot Monday> > every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all.> radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not adictatorship?> > The Valley Vegan....... .......> >

[Guest guest]

I`ve said it before and I`ll say it again, get with the programme, geeesh you do like going off on a tangent dont you! how extreme do you want to go? come back down to earth will you? The Valley Vegan............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: if you were in the KKK, and then reality slapped you upside the head and you went "dear bacchus, what was i thinking?!!", would you still bring home yer kids racist material to digest? take em to

WAR rallies? wash their white sheets and hoods? peter VV Nov 15, 2006 1:12 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday Wot Jo was on about was suddenly changing their diet from meat eaters to vegan..........hence the term dictatorship........get with the programme Fragboy! The Valley Vegan............fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) com> wrote: are saying you don't dictate wot yer kids eat? you buy it, no? how many children only want to eat cake and candy? is it ok to give into that then? why not? peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:41 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all. radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not a dictatorship? The Valley Vegan.............. History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher Peter H Send instant messages to

your online friends http://uk.messenger. History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Fraggle is running for benevolent dictator............well he gets my vote over most of the house of congress/parliament any day! The Valley Vegan.............Sharon Murch <compassion2grace wrote: I recall from my political science classes a million years ago, hearing that there is no better form of

government than a BENEVOLENT dictatorship. Yes, that is a family. Only the subjects sometimes don't see it that way. ;-) Sharon peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006

12:41:22 PMRe: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all. radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not a dictatorship? The Valley Vegan....... .......fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.com> wrote: i do not agree that not purchasing dead flesh fer yer kids equals dictatorship peter VV Nov 15, 2006 11:25 AM @gro ups.com Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday what, a dictatorship? The Valley Vegan.......

........fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.com> wrote: depends on how ya looks at it........ jo Nov 15, 2006 2:35 AM @gro ups.com Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday Hi Peter I do agree. We were lucky in our family as we decided all at the same time to go veggie. If it had just been me I wouldn't suddenly say to everyone else in the family that they couldn't eat what they wanted - that would be a dictatorship - with which, I hope we all disagree. Jo - peter VV @gro ups.com Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:43 AM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday I accept your point of view, but disagree. My wife is the only carnie in our house, and I will not force my views on her,nor her on me, its her life as well as my kids, who if they chose to eat animals would be their choice. I dont see

how my letting them make their own choices makes me a bad person, or compromises my lifestyle as a vegan. She does eat less animals since she met me , as she will eat what I cook out of convenience, so from that perspective it is making a small difference. The Valley Vegan....... ......flower child <zurumato (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote: personally, that thought of buying milk fer someone else is tantamountto allowing someone to shoot puppies in the face in yer hausthats me of courseeveryone is differentHi fraggle, I agree, my house is a cruelty-free zone. My children are not teenagers and I know that teenagers rebel if theydon't get their way. I would hope that they are still vegan as they grow older and earntheir own money. That is beyond my control and their choice. but

for now, it is my wallet, and I buy the groceries. Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Knowing kids, if they had to buy their own, they would use whatever you had to offer!, then maybe they would get used to it and start to like it. Maybe the way to go?Thats what I would do. The Valley Vegan................Sharon Murch <compassion2grace wrote: They just want it in their cereal,

really, and with their cookies (vegan). My question was whether it made more sense to make a statement by making them buy their own, or was better to go to a faraway store and buy from a dairy that *claims* to be more compassionate. Bottom line is, I guess, that my children know my stand, and me not buying it is not going to change their habits, so for their health the organic choice is probably better, and perhaps the cows who are giving the milk get to set foot on the earth and breathe fresh air sometime in their lives. Not to say it's a good choice, but it is a lesser evil on behalf of both the children and the animals, both of whom I try to love as best I can. Sharon jo <jo.heartwork > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 2:33:56 PMRe: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday If the ~grown up~ children wanted cake every meal I would provide a certain amount each week and they could eat it until they got through it. This would be because money goes only so far. Did Sharon's ~grown up~ children want milk for every meal? Jo - fraggle @gro ups.com Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:13 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday something wrong with being the proud parent of fur babies? ok...how about it the kids wanted cake ..everyday.. .every meal... is that ok? peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:04 PM

@gro ups.com Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday not a parent are you Fraggle? ( fur babies aside ), you are assuming that both parents are vegan to start. In my case my wife is a (zombie) flesheater, and so we brought our kids up as vegetarian rather than vegan as a compromise. I think compromise is good. If drano was a foodstuff then I suppose ?........... ..my brain hurts....... The Valley Vegan....... ......... ..fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.com> wrote: i think we wnet over this before and, here's where i prolly get everyone pissed at me ok.. so, when you have children, you are suppose

to care for them, correct? would you let a three yr old wander around in the street? i would guess not.. as a parent(and in society), children are given boundaries, no? some are more restrictive then others so there's all ways of looking at it but..if you just toss yer kid a KFC bucket once a week, and say "go at it", if you let yer toddler wander the streets, if you don't care if yer kid goes to skool, then you are labeled a bad parent yes? then, if you've made a choice to be vegan, why woudl it be ok to buy milk fer yer kids or dead flesh, or whichever? don't you have a duty to raise the wee ones not only to be healthy, but to make good choices in life? if they want to go buy cow pus at age 16, well, nuthin you can do about it besides give them information and try and help them along but..if yer 6 yr old wants cow milk, tough... what if they wanted to drink drano? peter VV Nov 15, 2006 6:39 AM @gro ups.com Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday I think it depends on their age, if they arent old enough to get jobs yet to be self sufficient, then support them. When they are old enough to work and if they still live with parents, it will be up to them to buy whatever they like.Hopefully, they will look after themselves and support their own lifestyle choices without asking parents to support them by sponsoring their lactiverous activities. I think it would be selfish and uncaring on their part to be any other way? The Valley Vegan....... ......Peter <metalscarab@ gmail.com> wrote: Hi Peter >I wouldnt condone forcing your lifestyle choices on your children by stopping them having dairy But you would condone them forcing their lifestyle choices on their parents by making them buy milk? As you said, they're old enough to make their own decisions... BB Peter Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends

http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher Peter H Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Thought what? The Valley Vegan..........heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: I thought that too - before I had children.Jo , "flower child" <zurumato wrote:>> I think fraggle is a parent. > no he won't go to pta meetings or soccer practice but his children> are jsut as meaningful and the love he feels is just as strong > as if they where his own

children. > > You are right, it helps tremendously if both parents have the same> goal for their children. It is easier because my husband is vegan.> my three year old was born vegan, knows nothing else.> > I think what you are doing with your children is a good compromise. > > > > , peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> >> > not a parent are you Fraggle? ( fur babies aside ), you are assuming> that both parents are vegan to start. In my case my wife is a (zombie)> flesheater, and so we brought our kids up as vegetarian rather than> vegan as a compromise. I think compromise is good.> > If drano was a foodstuff then I suppose ?.............my brain> hurts.......> > > > The Valley

Vegan..................>Peter H

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Was this jerk being serious, I mean an avocado a day?!?!?!?!? was she just trying to start a debate, surely the kids have a right to reply to the editor in the magazine with the truth? a list of athletes / prominent people would help dispell this ignoramous ideas. Incidentally, I dont know if anyone has seen the latest Burgler King ad on telly, but apparently being able to eat one of their biggest dead cow things equates with manlyness?..well what a wimp I am. The Valley Vegan............Sharon Murch <compassion2grace wrote: Recently, the editor of our high school newspaper wrote an anti-vegetarian editorial. I have to tell you, it's not the first time I have wondered about the future of our country or the competence of the journalism instructor when I have read the school paper. One of the thing she said is that we are fooling ourselves if we think we are important enough to convince the meat industry to be more humane by not eating meat. Ever since then, my 7th grader has been hearing this at middle school. She tells them that she saves 95 lives a year by not eating meat. So then they go on to the next argument, that the editor also gave, that vegetarianism isn't healthy, and that books on vegetarianism advise that if you want to remain healthy on a vegetarian diet you have to eat an avocado a day! I have read a ton of books on vegetarianism but have yet to come across this particular piece of advice. One of our assistant principals has been a vegetarian for years, and is also a triathalete. But facts aren't important to the kids. However, there are a fair number of committed vegetarians among the kids at the middle school. Sharon flower child <zurumato (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:07:51 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday hi sharon, I think that there is tremendous pressure as a teen to fit in. my oldest soon is eight years old. He gets teased at shchool, not only for veganism, but for lots of other things. his hair, his clothes, his accent. It seems that they are just looking for something to pick at. I don't blame teens for wanting to "just fit in" at whatever cost. Teasing because you are different, hurts. @gro ups.com, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@ ...>wrote:>> Fraggle, I am absolutely astounded at how thoughtless andhard-hearted even my own children can be. Even my 18-year old son,who is a generally kind and loving person, who sat and watched"Earthlings" with me the other day, went out this morning and had ameat-laden omelet. I do rather believe this one will come alongeventually. With me, it's kind of like the light was always there butI had on these dark glasses, and I think he will take his glasses offone day. But even my daughter who has been staunchly vegetarian forover a year resists going vegan. > > Why? You tell me. I don't get it.> > Sharon> Peter H

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if at first you don't suceed

lie...

the name of the game

Sharon Murch Nov 15, 2006 10:52 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

 

Recently, the editor of our high school newspaper wrote an anti-vegetarian editorial. I have to tell you, it's not the first time I have wondered about the future of our country or the competence of the journalism instructor when I have read the school paper. One of the thing she said is that we are fooling ourselves if we think we are important enough to convince the meat industry to be more humane by not eating meat. Ever since then, my 7th grader has been hearing this at middle school. She tells them that she saves 95 lives a year by not eating meat.

 

So then they go on to the next argument, that the editor also gave, that vegetarianism isn't healthy, and that books on vegetarianism advise that if you want to remain healthy on a vegetarian diet you have to eat an avocado a day! I have read a ton of books on vegetarianism but have yet to come across this particular piece of advice. One of our assistant principals has been a vegetarian for years, and is also a triathalete. But facts aren't important to the kids.

 

However, there are a fair number of committed vegetarians among the kids at the middle school.

 

Sharon

flower child <zurumato Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:07:51 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

hi sharon, I think that there is tremendous pressure as a teen to fit in. my oldest soon is eight years old. He gets teased at shchool, not only for veganism, but for lots of other things. his hair, his clothes, his accent. It seems that they are just looking for something to pick at. I don't blame teens for wanting to "just fit in" at whatever cost. Teasing because you are different, hurts. @gro ups.com, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@ ...>wrote:>> Fraggle, I am absolutely astounded at how thoughtless andhard-hearted even my own children can be. Even my 18-year old son,who is a generally kind and loving person, who sat and watched"Earthlings" with me the other day, went out this morning and had ameat-laden omelet. I do rather believe this one will come alongeventually. With me, it's kind of like the light was always there butI had on these dark glasses, and I think he will take his glasses offone day. But even my daughter who has been staunchly vegetarian forover a year resists going vegan. > > Why? You tell me. I don't get it.> > Sharon>

 

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

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makes sense to me booboo....

peter VV Nov 16, 2006 1:02 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I`ve said it before and I`ll say it again, get with the programme, geeesh you do like going off on a tangent dont you! how extreme do you want to go?

come back down to earth will you?

 

The Valley Vegan............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

 

 

 

if you were in the KKK, and then reality slapped you upside the head and you went "dear bacchus, what was i thinking?!!", would you still bring home yer kids racist material to digest?

take em to WAR rallies?

wash their white sheets and hoods?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 1:12 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

Wot Jo was on about was suddenly changing their diet from meat eaters to vegan..........hence the term dictatorship........get with the programme Fragboy!

 

The Valley Vegan............fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) com> wrote:

 

 

 

are saying you don't dictate wot yer kids eat?

you buy it, no?

how many children only want to eat cake and candy?

is it ok to give into that then?

why not?

 

 

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:41 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all.

radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not a dictatorship?

 

The Valley Vegan.............. History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

 

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You still don't understand Fraggle. The people were raised in a non-vegan family. The change that one member of the family has made has been recent. It is not the same as starting out vegan.

 

Jo

 

-

fraggle

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 10:36 PM

Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

if you were in the KKK, and then reality slapped you upside the head and you went "dear bacchus, what was i thinking?!!", would you still bring home yer kids racist material to digest?

take em to WAR rallies?

wash their white sheets and hoods?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 1:12 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

Wot Jo was on about was suddenly changing their diet from meat eaters to vegan..........hence the term dictatorship........get with the programme Fragboy!

 

The Valley Vegan............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

 

 

 

are saying you don't dictate wot yer kids eat?

you buy it, no?

how many children only want to eat cake and candy?

is it ok to give into that then?

why not?

 

 

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:41 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all.

radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not a dictatorship?

 

The Valley Vegan.............. History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

 

Peter H

 

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I disagree. Ahome does not have one person dictating what the rest of the people in that home do. The status quo was for there to be milk available. Just because one person gives it up does not mean that the rest of the people (whose home it also is) have to abide by that decision.

 

You are a hard man Fraggle.

 

Jo

 

-

fraggle

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:11 PM

Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

and i'm talking about in your own home

what yer kids do outside is their own deal(of course, up to a limit..unless fer some reason ya'll think its ok that yer kids turn into axe -wielding maniacs er something..er hitler..er rush limbaugh er something)

(thems the jokes)

how is it being a dictator saying "sorry, i'm not buying you milk"?

thats what i'm talking about....

jo Nov 15, 2006 2:27 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

We're not talking about children - we're talking about adult children - and you can't be a dictator to them. If they want to be vegan you can't stop them and if they want to drink milk you can't stop them. You do not stop loving your children when you change your own lifestyle (which is your own choice).

 

Jo

 

 

-

fraggle

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:48 PM

Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

i think we wnet over this before

and, here's where i prolly get everyone pissed at me

 

ok..

so, when you have children, you are suppose to care for them, correct?

would you let a three yr old wander around in the street?

i would guess not..

as a parent(and in society), children are given boundaries, no?

some are more restrictive then others

so there's all ways of looking at it

but..if you just toss yer kid a KFC bucket once a week, and say "go at it", if you let yer toddler wander the streets, if you don't care if yer kid goes to skool, then you are labeled a bad parent

yes?

then, if you've made a choice to be vegan, why woudl it be ok to buy milk fer yer kids or dead flesh, or whichever?

don't you have a duty to raise the wee ones not only to be healthy, but to make good choices in life?

if they want to go buy cow pus at age 16, well, nuthin you can do about it besides give them information and try and help them along

but..if yer 6 yr old wants cow milk, tough...

what if they wanted to drink drano?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 6:39 AM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I think it depends on their age, if they arent old enough to get jobs yet to be self sufficient, then support them. When they are old enough to work and if they still live with parents, it will be up to them to buy whatever they like.Hopefully, they will look after themselves and support their own lifestyle choices without asking parents to support them by sponsoring their lactiverous activities. I think it would be selfish and uncaring on their part to be any other way?

 

The Valley Vegan.............Peter <metalscarab wrote:

 

 

 

Hi Peter

 

>I wouldnt condone forcing your lifestyle choices on your children by stopping them having dairy

 

But you would condone them forcing their lifestyle choices on their parents by making them buy milk? As you said, they're old enough to make their own decisions...

 

BB

Peter

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. History repeats itself

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[Guest guest]

No it's not - you've got veggie children and anomniverous wife. That is not a criticism. but surely you do some shopping for the family sometimes - don't you?

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:15 PM

Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

Knowing kids, if they had to buy their own, they would use whatever you had to offer!, then maybe they would get used to it and start to like it.

Maybe the way to go?Thats what I would do.

 

The Valley Vegan................Sharon Murch <compassion2grace wrote:

 

 

 

 

They just want it in their cereal, really, and with their cookies (vegan). My question was whether it made more sense to make a statement by making them buy their own, or was better to go to a faraway store and buy from a dairy that *claims* to be more compassionate. Bottom line is, I guess, that my children know my stand, and me not buying it is not going to change their habits, so for their health the organic choice is probably better, and perhaps the cows who are giving the milk get to set foot on the earth and breathe fresh air sometime in their lives.

 

Not to say it's a good choice, but it is a lesser evil on behalf of both the children and the animals, both of whom I try to love as best I can.

 

Sharon

jo <jo.heartwork > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 2:33:56 PMRe: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

 

If the ~grown up~ children wanted cake every meal I would provide a certain amount each week and they could eat it until they got through it. This would be because money goes only so far. Did Sharon's ~grown up~ children want milk for every meal?

 

Jo

 

-

fraggle

@gro ups.com

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:13 PM

Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

something wrong with being the proud parent of fur babies?

 

ok...how about it the kids wanted cake ..everyday.. .every meal...

is that ok?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:04 PM @gro ups.com Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

not a parent are you Fraggle? ( fur babies aside ), you are assuming that both parents are vegan to start. In my case my wife is a (zombie) flesheater, and so we brought our kids up as vegetarian rather than vegan as a compromise. I think compromise is good.

If drano was a foodstuff then I suppose ?........... ..my brain hurts.......

 

The Valley Vegan....... ......... ..fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.com> wrote:

 

 

 

i think we wnet over this before

and, here's where i prolly get everyone pissed at me

 

ok..

so, when you have children, you are suppose to care for them, correct?

would you let a three yr old wander around in the street?

i would guess not..

as a parent(and in society), children are given boundaries, no?

some are more restrictive then others

so there's all ways of looking at it

but..if you just toss yer kid a KFC bucket once a week, and say "go at it", if you let yer toddler wander the streets, if you don't care if yer kid goes to skool, then you are labeled a bad parent

yes?

then, if you've made a choice to be vegan, why woudl it be ok to buy milk fer yer kids or dead flesh, or whichever?

don't you have a duty to raise the wee ones not only to be healthy, but to make good choices in life?

if they want to go buy cow pus at age 16, well, nuthin you can do about it besides give them information and try and help them along

but..if yer 6 yr old wants cow milk, tough...

what if they wanted to drink drano?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 6:39 AM @gro ups.com Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I think it depends on their age, if they arent old enough to get jobs yet to be self sufficient, then support them. When they are old enough to work and if they still live with parents, it will be up to them to buy whatever they like.Hopefully, they will look after themselves and support their own lifestyle choices without asking parents to support them by sponsoring their lactiverous activities. I think it would be selfish and uncaring on their part to be any other way?

 

The Valley Vegan....... ......Peter <metalscarab@ gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

Hi Peter

 

>I wouldnt condone forcing your lifestyle choices on your children by stopping them having dairy

 

But you would condone them forcing their lifestyle choices on their parents by making them buy milk? As you said, they're old enough to make their own decisions...

 

BB

Peter

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

 

Peter H

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

 

 

Peter H

 

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That you could love your pets as much as you love your children.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:35 PM

Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

 

Thought what?

The Valley Vegan..........heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

I thought that too - before I had children.Jo , "flower child" <zurumato wrote:>> I think fraggle is a parent. > no he won't go to pta meetings or soccer practice but his children> are jsut as meaningful and the love he feels is just as strong > as if they where his own children. > > You are right, it helps tremendously if both parents have the same> goal for their children. It is easier because my husband is vegan.> my three year old was born vegan, knows nothing else.> > I think what you are doing with your children is a good compromise. > > > > , peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> >> > not a parent are you Fraggle? ( fur babies aside ), you are assuming> that both parents are vegan to start. In my case my wife is a (zombie)> flesheater, and so we brought our kids up as vegetarian rather than> vegan as a compromise. I think compromise is good.> > If drano was a foodstuff then I suppose ?.............my brain> hurts.......> > > > The Valley Vegan..................>

Peter H

 

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