URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

November 15, 2006

close enough....

ask nikki ..i've already told her 3/4 of it all..............

it gets worse every week....

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 11:30 AM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

would that be the intellectually challenged one that you mentioned previously? whats she done now?, hasnt shot puppies or started slave trading has she?

The Valley Vegan................fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

wanna move in?hahahahyou should hear the "issues" we are having with our roomie>flower child <zurumato (AT) earthlink (DOT) net>>Nov 14, 2006 8:39 PM> > Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday>>personally, that thought of buying milk fer someone else is tantamount>to allowing someone to shoot puppies in the face in yer haus>thats me of course>everyone is different>>>Hi fraggle, >>I agree, my house is a cruelty-free zone. >My children are not teenagers and I know that teenagers rebel if they>don't get their way. >>I would hope that they are still vegan as they grow older and earn>their own money. That is beyond my control and their choice. >but for now, it is my wallet, and I buy the groceries. >>>>>>>To send an email to - >

November 15, 2006

Hi Sharon,

We are all "conditioned" as children to eat particular foods. As a child myself I was brought up in a meat eating family - encouraged to drink milk and eat meat. I myself in later years when married and with a child of my own also brought up my son the same way.

I didn't become a vegetarian until I was in my early forties - this was due to animal welfare issues that I had heard about on radio and tv. After a few years of being vegetarian I then decided to become a vegan. I suddenly thought one day I cannot be a part of what was going on within the meat industry /dairy industry - I had to take that further step and become a vegan.

What I am saying here is that we all have to make our own choices in life. Our children will do the same - I made my choice of becoming a vegan because for me it was right - and I am glad to have made that decision. Although, I wish I had taken that step a lot earlier in my life. My brother and sister are still meat eaters - that is their choice.

We bring our children up to be independant and to make their own decisions - not always to our liking I know. My parents who unfortunately are not alive now would be horrified to know that I had become a vegan but hey ho - but for me this is the path I wish to follow.

Geraldine

-

Sharon Murch

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 2:41 PM

Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

My children aren't even teens ... they are young adults. It is not that they are rebelling, it is that I "forced" meat-eating and milk-drinking on them from early childhood. Now I have made a change and they don't want to follow. As young adults, they are in a position to make their own decisions. Hopefully they will decide differently one day.

You are right, of course ... whatever our lifestyle is, we "force" it on our children.

Sharon

flower child <zurumato (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:39:16 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

personally, that thought of buying milk fer someone else is tantamountto allowing someone to shoot puppies in the face in yer hausthats me of courseeveryone is differentHi fraggle, I agree, my house is a cruelty-free zone. My children are not teenagers and I know that teenagers rebel if theydon't get their way. I would hope that they are still vegan as they grow older and earntheir own money. That is beyond my control and their choice. but for now, it is my wallet, and I buy the groceries.

November 15, 2006

Wot Jo was on about was suddenly changing their diet from meat eaters to vegan..........hence the term dictatorship........get with the programme Fragboy! The Valley Vegan............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: are saying you don't dictate wot yer kids eat? you buy it, no? how many children only want to eat cake and candy? is it ok to give into that then? why not? peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:41 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all. radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not a dictatorship? The Valley Vegan.............. History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

November 15, 2006

I recall from my political science classes a million years ago, hearing that there is no better form of government than a BENEVOLENT dictatorship.

Yes, that is a family.

Only the subjects sometimes don't see it that way. ;-)

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:41:22 PMRe: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all.

radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not a dictatorship?

The Valley Vegan....... .......fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.com> wrote:

i do not agree that not purchasing dead flesh fer yer kids equals dictatorship

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 11:25 AM @gro ups.com Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

what, a dictatorship?

The Valley Vegan....... .......fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.com> wrote:

depends on how ya looks at it........

jo Nov 15, 2006 2:35 AM @gro ups.com Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

Hi Peter

I do agree. We were lucky in our family as we decided all at the same time to go veggie. If it had just been me I wouldn't suddenly say to everyone else in the family that they couldn't eat what they wanted - that would be a dictatorship - with which, I hope we all disagree.

Jo

-

peter VV

@gro ups.com

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:43 AM

Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I accept your point of view, but disagree. My wife is the only carnie in our house, and I will not force my views on her,nor her on me, its her life as well as my kids, who if they chose to eat animals would be their choice. I dont see how my letting them make their own choices makes me a bad person, or compromises my lifestyle as a vegan. She does eat less animals since she met me , as she will eat what I cook out of convenience, so from that perspective it is making a small difference.

The Valley Vegan....... ......flower child <zurumato (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote:

personally, that thought of buying milk fer someone else is tantamountto allowing someone to shoot puppies in the face in yer hausthats me of courseeveryone is differentHi fraggle, I agree, my house is a cruelty-free zone. My children are not teenagers and I know that teenagers rebel if theydon't get their way. I would hope that they are still vegan as they grow older and earntheir own money. That is beyond my control and their choice. but for now, it is my wallet, and I buy the groceries.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

November 15, 2006

how about some of the other grain or nutmilks?

tried almond milk, or oat milk?

i have an addiction for "multi-grain" milk..but rarely see it organic, so almost never get it

boohoo

fraggle

Sharon Murch Nov 14, 2006 6:41 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

We've had soymilk in the house forever. Some like it, not not. When my son was a preschooler, he preferred to drink soymilk, and one day he told me it was because it was brown instead of white, and he thought it would make him turn brown like his best friend.

They like the milk on cereal. Maybe I should stop buying cereal! ;-)

Nice to hear from all you in the UK. I was born in England and spent my early years there. My mother is from there, and the only family I have besides my children is there.

Sharon

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 15, 2006

Maybe that's why you didn't like being at home.

Jo

-

" fraggle " <EBbrewpunx

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:40 PM

Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot

Monday

> and i said everyone was different, and looked at it differently/is going

to have different feelings

> everyone draws lines somewhere...

>

> if i was 20 and living with my parents i'd prolly would have gone mad

>

> just cuz i was 20 and still at home

> but..seriously...my parents bought what they wanted....

> if i wanted something else, then, that was up to me....

>

> >jo <jo.heartwork

> >Nov 15, 2006 2:33 AM

> >

> >Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot

Monday

> >

> >Hi Anouk / Fraggle

> >

> >I partly agree with your point of view, but I think this person has

turned

> >vegan recently. It is her choice and probably you cannot expect the rest

of

> >her grown up family to agree. To reverse the situation, if you were 20

and

> >living at home and your parents, who had been vegan, decided to buy and

eat

> >meat, you might not like it either.

> >

> >Jo

> >

> >-

> > " flower child " <zurumato

> >

> >Wednesday, November 15, 2006 4:39 AM

> > Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot

Monday

> >

> >> personally, that thought of buying milk fer someone else is tantamount

> >> to allowing someone to shoot puppies in the face in yer haus

> >> thats me of course

> >> everyone is different

> >>

> >> Hi fraggle,

> >>

> >> I agree, my house is a cruelty-free zone.

> >> My children are not teenagers and I know that teenagers rebel if they

> >> don't get their way.

> >>

> >> I would hope that they are still vegan as they grow older and earn

> >> their own money. That is beyond my control and their choice.

> >> but for now, it is my wallet, and I buy the groceries.

> >>

> >> To send an email to -

> >>

November 15, 2006

We're not talking about children - we're talking about adult children - and you can't be a dictator to them. If they want to be vegan you can't stop them and if they want to drink milk you can't stop them. You do not stop loving your children when you change your own lifestyle (which is your own choice).

Jo

-

fraggle

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:48 PM

Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

i think we wnet over this before

and, here's where i prolly get everyone pissed at me

ok..

so, when you have children, you are suppose to care for them, correct?

would you let a three yr old wander around in the street?

i would guess not..

as a parent(and in society), children are given boundaries, no?

some are more restrictive then others

so there's all ways of looking at it

but..if you just toss yer kid a KFC bucket once a week, and say "go at it", if you let yer toddler wander the streets, if you don't care if yer kid goes to skool, then you are labeled a bad parent

yes?

then, if you've made a choice to be vegan, why woudl it be ok to buy milk fer yer kids or dead flesh, or whichever?

don't you have a duty to raise the wee ones not only to be healthy, but to make good choices in life?

if they want to go buy cow pus at age 16, well, nuthin you can do about it besides give them information and try and help them along

but..if yer 6 yr old wants cow milk, tough...

what if they wanted to drink drano?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 6:39 AM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I think it depends on their age, if they arent old enough to get jobs yet to be self sufficient, then support them. When they are old enough to work and if they still live with parents, it will be up to them to buy whatever they like.Hopefully, they will look after themselves and support their own lifestyle choices without asking parents to support them by sponsoring their lactiverous activities. I think it would be selfish and uncaring on their part to be any other way?

The Valley Vegan.............Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Peter

>I wouldnt condone forcing your lifestyle choices on your children by stopping them having dairy

But you would condone them forcing their lifestyle choices on their parents by making them buy milk? As you said, they're old enough to make their own decisions...

BB

Peter

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 15, 2006

there's lots of resistance to going vegan

its different from what everyone else is doing, ergo, then its bad

hard to be singled out

plus, you can't do "what everyone else is doing"

what, you mean i can't just order a pizza?!

different people have different levels of what they view of as "acceptable" behavoir

no one is the same as anyone else

so we all take what we view of as right, and look at it thru our own perspectives

hopefully they will come around

keep plugging!

Sharon Murch Nov 14, 2006 6:34 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

Fraggle, I am absolutely astounded at how thoughtless and hard-hearted even my own children can be. Even my 18-year old son, who is a generally kind and loving person, who sat and watched "Earthlings" with me the other day, went out this morning and had a meat-laden omelet. I do rather believe this one will come along eventually. With me, it's kind of like the light was always there but I had on these dark glasses, and I think he will take his glasses off one day. But even my daughter who has been staunchly vegetarian for over a year resists going vegan.

Why? You tell me. I don't get it.

Sharon

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 15, 2006

I think you are misunderstanding the way parents feel about their care towards their children, no matter how old their children are.

Jo

-

fraggle

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:02 PM

Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

if they can "make up their own mind", then thats their choice

can't force change on them

can only guide

but..doesn't mean you have to encourage their meat-eating/cow pus drinking either..

just my thoughts tis all...

cheers

Sharon Murch Nov 15, 2006 6:41 AM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

My children aren't even teens ... they are young adults. It is not that they are rebelling, it is that I "forced" meat-eating and milk-drinking on them from early childhood. Now I have made a change and they don't want to follow. As young adults, they are in a position to make their own decisions. Hopefully they will decide differently one day.

You are right, of course ... whatever our lifestyle is, we "force" it on our children.

Sharon

flower child <zurumato Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:39:16 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

personally, that thought of buying milk fer someone else is tantamountto allowing someone to shoot puppies in the face in yer hausthats me of courseeveryone is differentHi fraggle, I agree, my house is a cruelty-free zone. My children are not teenagers and I know that teenagers rebel if theydon't get their way. I would hope that they are still vegan as they grow older and earntheir own money. That is beyond my control and their choice. but for now, it is my wallet, and I buy the groceries.

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 15, 2006

When it is the one person who has changed it could be considered a dictatorship. I think if someone in your household said they had made a decision and you had to abide by it you'd feel it was.

Jo

-

fraggle

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:05 PM

Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

i do not agree that not purchasing dead flesh fer yer kids equals dictatorship

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 11:25 AM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

what, a dictatorship?

The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

depends on how ya looks at it........

jo Nov 15, 2006 2:35 AM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

Hi Peter

I do agree. We were lucky in our family as we decided all at the same time to go veggie. If it had just been me I wouldn't suddenly say to everyone else in the family that they couldn't eat what they wanted - that would be a dictatorship - with which, I hope we all disagree.

Jo

-

peter VV

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:43 AM

Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I accept your point of view, but disagree. My wife is the only carnie in our house, and I will not force my views on her,nor her on me, its her life as well as my kids, who if they chose to eat animals would be their choice. I dont see how my letting them make their own choices makes me a bad person, or compromises my lifestyle as a vegan. She does eat less animals since she met me , as she will eat what I cook out of convenience, so from that perspective it is making a small difference.

The Valley Vegan.............flower child <zurumato (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote:

personally, that thought of buying milk fer someone else is tantamountto allowing someone to shoot puppies in the face in yer hausthats me of courseeveryone is differentHi fraggle, I agree, my house is a cruelty-free zone. My children are not teenagers and I know that teenagers rebel if theydon't get their way. I would hope that they are still vegan as they grow older and earntheir own money. That is beyond my control and their choice. but for now, it is my wallet, and I buy the groceries.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 15, 2006

If the ~grown up~ children wanted cake every meal I would provide a certain amount each week and they could eat it until they got through it. This would be because money goes only so far. Did Sharon's ~grown up~ children want milk for every meal?

Jo

-

fraggle

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:13 PM

Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

something wrong with being the proud parent of fur babies?

ok...how about it the kids wanted cake ..everyday...every meal...

is that ok?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:04 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

not a parent are you Fraggle? ( fur babies aside ), you are assuming that both parents are vegan to start. In my case my wife is a (zombie) flesheater, and so we brought our kids up as vegetarian rather than vegan as a compromise. I think compromise is good.

If drano was a foodstuff then I suppose ?.............my brain hurts.......

The Valley Vegan..................fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

i think we wnet over this before

and, here's where i prolly get everyone pissed at me

ok..

so, when you have children, you are suppose to care for them, correct?

would you let a three yr old wander around in the street?

i would guess not..

as a parent(and in society), children are given boundaries, no?

some are more restrictive then others

so there's all ways of looking at it

but..if you just toss yer kid a KFC bucket once a week, and say "go at it", if you let yer toddler wander the streets, if you don't care if yer kid goes to skool, then you are labeled a bad parent

yes?

then, if you've made a choice to be vegan, why woudl it be ok to buy milk fer yer kids or dead flesh, or whichever?

don't you have a duty to raise the wee ones not only to be healthy, but to make good choices in life?

if they want to go buy cow pus at age 16, well, nuthin you can do about it besides give them information and try and help them along

but..if yer 6 yr old wants cow milk, tough...

what if they wanted to drink drano?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 6:39 AM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I think it depends on their age, if they arent old enough to get jobs yet to be self sufficient, then support them. When they are old enough to work and if they still live with parents, it will be up to them to buy whatever they like.Hopefully, they will look after themselves and support their own lifestyle choices without asking parents to support them by sponsoring their lactiverous activities. I think it would be selfish and uncaring on their part to be any other way?

The Valley Vegan.............Peter <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Peter

>I wouldnt condone forcing your lifestyle choices on your children by stopping them having dairy

But you would condone them forcing their lifestyle choices on their parents by making them buy milk? As you said, they're old enough to make their own decisions...

BB

Peter

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 15, 2006

if you were in the KKK, and then reality slapped you upside the head and you went "dear bacchus, what was i thinking?!!", would you still bring home yer kids racist material to digest?

take em to WAR rallies?

wash their white sheets and hoods?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 1:12 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

Wot Jo was on about was suddenly changing their diet from meat eaters to vegan..........hence the term dictatorship........get with the programme Fragboy!

The Valley Vegan............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

are saying you don't dictate wot yer kids eat?

you buy it, no?

how many children only want to eat cake and candy?

is it ok to give into that then?

why not?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:41 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all.

radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not a dictatorship?

The Valley Vegan.............. History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 15, 2006

It certainly wouldn't. It would prolong the myth that vegans are miserable b*****ds who like to tell everyone what to do.

Jo

-

peter VV

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:42 PM

Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

Wouldnt be setting a good example of caring vegan ethics would it?

The Valley Vegan................Sharon Murch <compassion2grace wrote:

But if you are already in a relationship when you become a vegan, I can't say I'd think it appropriate to dump the other person because they are still eating meat. You just might love them, and you may have made a commitment and that commitment should be honored. If you continue to live with them, and exhibit your compassion in your life as well as your diet, perhaps one day they will see the light also.

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) com> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:25:56 AMRe: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

everyone is different

and everyone draws their lines in different places...

personally.. .and again, i said personally.. i couldn't be with a carnie

i look at it this way..what if my partner had a slave?

well..i'm an abolutionist. ..but my partner owns slaves..but i can't force him/her to do what i do...

but, since i came along..she only whips them when they are really bad....

*shrug*

evetyone see's things differently. ..

and, never said it all was suppose to make sense, er be easy

cheers

fraggle

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:43 AM @gro ups.com Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I accept your point of view, but disagree. My wife is the only carnie in our house, and I will not force my views on her,nor her on me, its her life as well as my kids, who if they chose to eat animals would be their choice. I dont see how my letting them make their own choices makes me a bad person, or compromises my lifestyle as a vegan. She does eat less animals since she met me , as she will eat what I cook out of convenience, so from that perspective it is making a small difference.

The Valley Vegan....... ......flower child <zurumato (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote:

History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.

November 15, 2006

My children never wanted to eat only cake and candy. I think you are heading off target here.

Jo

-

fraggle

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:01 PM

Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

are saying you don't dictate wot yer kids eat?

you buy it, no?

how many children only want to eat cake and candy?

is it ok to give into that then?

why not?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:41 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all.

radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not a dictatorship?

The Valley Vegan..............

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 15, 2006

a goal i strive to achieve one day

benevolent dictator of the world

Sharon Murch Nov 15, 2006 1:24 PM Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I recall from my political science classes a million years ago, hearing that there is no better form of government than a BENEVOLENT dictatorship.

Yes, that is a family.

Only the subjects sometimes don't see it that way. ;-)

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:41:22 PMRe: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

every one a gem, roll up roll up, opinions valid one and all.

radically changing their diet and dictating what they eat is not a dictatorship?

The Valley Vegan....... .......fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.com> wrote:

i do not agree that not purchasing dead flesh fer yer kids equals dictatorship

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 11:25 AM @gro ups.com Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

what, a dictatorship?

The Valley Vegan....... .......fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.com> wrote:

depends on how ya looks at it........

jo Nov 15, 2006 2:35 AM @gro ups.com Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

Hi Peter

I do agree. We were lucky in our family as we decided all at the same time to go veggie. If it had just been me I wouldn't suddenly say to everyone else in the family that they couldn't eat what they wanted - that would be a dictatorship - with which, I hope we all disagree.

Jo

-

peter VV

@gro ups.com

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:43 AM

Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I accept your point of view, but disagree. My wife is the only carnie in our house, and I will not force my views on her,nor her on me, its her life as well as my kids, who if they chose to eat animals would be their choice. I dont see how my letting them make their own choices makes me a bad person, or compromises my lifestyle as a vegan. She does eat less animals since she met me , as she will eat what I cook out of convenience, so from that perspective it is making a small difference.

The Valley Vegan....... ......flower child <zurumato (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote:

personally, that thought of buying milk fer someone else is tantamountto allowing someone to shoot puppies in the face in yer hausthats me of courseeveryone is differentHi fraggle, I agree, my house is a cruelty-free zone. My children are not teenagers and I know that teenagers rebel if theydon't get their way. I would hope that they are still vegan as they grow older and earntheir own money. That is beyond my control and their choice. but for now, it is my wallet, and I buy the groceries.

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 15, 2006

didn't like living at home because didn't get along with father and step mother

nothing in common

we've been down this road before

>jo <jo.heartwork

>Nov 15, 2006 2:24 PM

>

>Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot

Monday

>

>Maybe that's why you didn't like being at home.

>

>Jo

>

>-

> " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx

>

>Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:40 PM

>Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot

>Monday

>

>> and i said everyone was different, and looked at it differently/is going

>to have different feelings

>> everyone draws lines somewhere...

>>

>> if i was 20 and living with my parents i'd prolly would have gone mad

>>

>> just cuz i was 20 and still at home

>> but..seriously...my parents bought what they wanted....

>> if i wanted something else, then, that was up to me....

>>

>> >jo <jo.heartwork

>> >Nov 15, 2006 2:33 AM

>> >

>> >Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot

>Monday

>> >

>> >Hi Anouk / Fraggle

>> >

>> >I partly agree with your point of view, but I think this person has

>turned

>> >vegan recently. It is her choice and probably you cannot expect the rest

>of

>> >her grown up family to agree. To reverse the situation, if you were 20

>and

>> >living at home and your parents, who had been vegan, decided to buy and

>eat

>> >meat, you might not like it either.

>> >

>> >Jo

>> >

>> >-

>> > " flower child " <zurumato

>> >

>> >Wednesday, November 15, 2006 4:39 AM

>> > Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot

>Monday

>> >

>> >> personally, that thought of buying milk fer someone else is tantamount

>> >> to allowing someone to shoot puppies in the face in yer haus

>> >> thats me of course

>> >> everyone is different

>> >>

>> >> Hi fraggle,

>> >>

>> >> I agree, my house is a cruelty-free zone.

>> >> My children are not teenagers and I know that teenagers rebel if they

>> >> don't get their way.

>> >>

>> >> I would hope that they are still vegan as they grow older and earn

>> >> their own money. That is beyond my control and their choice.

>> >> but for now, it is my wallet, and I buy the groceries.

>> >>

>> >> To send an email to -

>> >>

November 15, 2006

and i'm talking about in your own home

what yer kids do outside is their own deal(of course, up to a limit..unless fer some reason ya'll think its ok that yer kids turn into axe -wielding maniacs er something..er hitler..er rush limbaugh er something)

(thems the jokes)

how is it being a dictator saying "sorry, i'm not buying you milk"?

thats what i'm talking about....

jo Nov 15, 2006 2:27 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

We're not talking about children - we're talking about adult children - and you can't be a dictator to them. If they want to be vegan you can't stop them and if they want to drink milk you can't stop them. You do not stop loving your children when you change your own lifestyle (which is your own choice).

Jo

-

fraggle

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:48 PM

Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

i think we wnet over this before

and, here's where i prolly get everyone pissed at me

ok..

so, when you have children, you are suppose to care for them, correct?

would you let a three yr old wander around in the street?

i would guess not..

as a parent(and in society), children are given boundaries, no?

some are more restrictive then others

so there's all ways of looking at it

but..if you just toss yer kid a KFC bucket once a week, and say "go at it", if you let yer toddler wander the streets, if you don't care if yer kid goes to skool, then you are labeled a bad parent

yes?

then, if you've made a choice to be vegan, why woudl it be ok to buy milk fer yer kids or dead flesh, or whichever?

don't you have a duty to raise the wee ones not only to be healthy, but to make good choices in life?

if they want to go buy cow pus at age 16, well, nuthin you can do about it besides give them information and try and help them along

but..if yer 6 yr old wants cow milk, tough...

what if they wanted to drink drano?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 6:39 AM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I think it depends on their age, if they arent old enough to get jobs yet to be self sufficient, then support them. When they are old enough to work and if they still live with parents, it will be up to them to buy whatever they like.Hopefully, they will look after themselves and support their own lifestyle choices without asking parents to support them by sponsoring their lactiverous activities. I think it would be selfish and uncaring on their part to be any other way?

The Valley Vegan.............Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Peter

>I wouldnt condone forcing your lifestyle choices on your children by stopping them having dairy

But you would condone them forcing their lifestyle choices on their parents by making them buy milk? As you said, they're old enough to make their own decisions...

BB

Peter

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 15, 2006

sorry..i just disagree

i quit now

jo Nov 15, 2006 2:33 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

If the ~grown up~ children wanted cake every meal I would provide a certain amount each week and they could eat it until they got through it. This would be because money goes only so far. Did Sharon's ~grown up~ children want milk for every meal?

Jo

-

fraggle

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:13 PM

Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

something wrong with being the proud parent of fur babies?

ok...how about it the kids wanted cake ..everyday...every meal...

is that ok?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:04 PM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

not a parent are you Fraggle? ( fur babies aside ), you are assuming that both parents are vegan to start. In my case my wife is a (zombie) flesheater, and so we brought our kids up as vegetarian rather than vegan as a compromise. I think compromise is good.

If drano was a foodstuff then I suppose ?.............my brain hurts.......

The Valley Vegan..................fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

i think we wnet over this before

and, here's where i prolly get everyone pissed at me

ok..

so, when you have children, you are suppose to care for them, correct?

would you let a three yr old wander around in the street?

i would guess not..

as a parent(and in society), children are given boundaries, no?

some are more restrictive then others

so there's all ways of looking at it

but..if you just toss yer kid a KFC bucket once a week, and say "go at it", if you let yer toddler wander the streets, if you don't care if yer kid goes to skool, then you are labeled a bad parent

yes?

then, if you've made a choice to be vegan, why woudl it be ok to buy milk fer yer kids or dead flesh, or whichever?

don't you have a duty to raise the wee ones not only to be healthy, but to make good choices in life?

if they want to go buy cow pus at age 16, well, nuthin you can do about it besides give them information and try and help them along

but..if yer 6 yr old wants cow milk, tough...

what if they wanted to drink drano?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 6:39 AM Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I think it depends on their age, if they arent old enough to get jobs yet to be self sufficient, then support them. When they are old enough to work and if they still live with parents, it will be up to them to buy whatever they like.Hopefully, they will look after themselves and support their own lifestyle choices without asking parents to support them by sponsoring their lactiverous activities. I think it would be selfish and uncaring on their part to be any other way?

The Valley Vegan.............Peter <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Peter

>I wouldnt condone forcing your lifestyle choices on your children by stopping them having dairy

But you would condone them forcing their lifestyle choices on their parents by making them buy milk? As you said, they're old enough to make their own decisions...

BB

Peter

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 16, 2006

Exactly. Compassion is compassion. After all, we don't decide it's okay to hunt lions or have a tiger skin rug on our floor just because they are predatory animals.

Sharon

peter VV <swpgh01 Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:42:56 AMRe: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

Wouldnt be setting a good example of caring vegan ethics would it?

The Valley Vegan....... .........Sharon Murch <compassion2grace@ > wrote:

But if you are already in a relationship when you become a vegan, I can't say I'd think it appropriate to dump the other person because they are still eating meat. You just might love them, and you may have made a commitment and that commitment should be honored. If you continue to live with them, and exhibit your compassion in your life as well as your diet, perhaps one day they will see the light also.

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.com>@gro ups.comWednesday, November 15, 2006 9:25:56 AMRe: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

everyone is different

and everyone draws their lines in different places...

personally.. .and again, i said personally.. i couldn't be with a carnie

i look at it this way..what if my partner had a slave?

well..i'm an abolutionist. ..but my partner owns slaves..but i can't force him/her to do what i do...

but, since i came along..she only whips them when they are really bad....

*shrug*

evetyone see's things differently. ..

and, never said it all was suppose to make sense, er be easy

cheers

fraggle

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:43 AM @gro ups.com Re: Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I accept your point of view, but disagree. My wife is the only carnie in our house, and I will not force my views on her,nor her on me, its her life as well as my kids, who if they chose to eat animals would be their choice. I dont see how my letting them make their own choices makes me a bad person, or compromises my lifestyle as a vegan. She does eat less animals since she met me , as she will eat what I cook out of convenience, so from that perspective it is making a small difference.

The Valley Vegan....... ......flower child <zurumato (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote:

History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .

November 16, 2006

I've tried other milks at various times, and I like the soy myself.

fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 2:11:26 PMRe: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

how about some of the other grain or nutmilks?

tried almond milk, or oat milk?

i have an addiction for "multi-grain" milk..but rarely see it organic, so almost never get it

boohoo

fraggle

Sharon Murch Nov 14, 2006 6:41 PM @gro ups.com Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

We've had soymilk in the house forever. Some like it, not not. When my son was a preschooler, he preferred to drink soymilk, and one day he told me it was because it was brown instead of white, and he thought it would make him turn brown like his best friend.

They like the milk on cereal. Maybe I should stop buying cereal! ;-)

Nice to hear from all you in the UK. I was born in England and spent my early years there. My mother is from there, and the only family I have besides my children is there.

Sharon

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 16, 2006

It does seem to be difficult to be a vegan in a teen world ... you know, walking around the streets, going to fast food restaurants. Even the fries are probably fried in animal fat. My son goes to San Francisco State and they have lots of vegan choices there ... vegan pizza and all. I don't think they have those at the local pizza place, which is too darn bad.

Sharon

fraggle <EBbrewpunx Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 2:29:13 PMRe: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

there's lots of resistance to going vegan

its different from what everyone else is doing, ergo, then its bad

hard to be singled out

plus, you can't do "what everyone else is doing"

what, you mean i can't just order a pizza?!

different people have different levels of what they view of as "acceptable" behavoir

no one is the same as anyone else

so we all take what we view of as right, and look at it thru our own perspectives

hopefully they will come around

keep plugging!

Sharon Murch Nov 14, 2006 6:34 PM @gro ups.com Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

Fraggle, I am absolutely astounded at how thoughtless and hard-hearted even my own children can be. Even my 18-year old son, who is a generally kind and loving person, who sat and watched "Earthlings" with me the other day, went out this morning and had a meat-laden omelet. I do rather believe this one will come along eventually. With me, it's kind of like the light was always there but I had on these dark glasses, and I think he will take his glasses off one day. But even my daughter who has been staunchly vegetarian for over a year resists going vegan.

Why? You tell me. I don't get it.

Sharon

History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 16, 2006

They just want it in their cereal, really, and with their cookies (vegan). My question was whether it made more sense to make a statement by making them buy their own, or was better to go to a faraway store and buy from a dairy that *claims* to be more compassionate. Bottom line is, I guess, that my children know my stand, and me not buying it is not going to change their habits, so for their health the organic choice is probably better, and perhaps the cows who are giving the milk get to set foot on the earth and breathe fresh air sometime in their lives.

Not to say it's a good choice, but it is a lesser evil on behalf of both the children and the animals, both of whom I try to love as best I can.

Sharon

jo <jo.heartwork Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 2:33:56 PMRe: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

If the ~grown up~ children wanted cake every meal I would provide a certain amount each week and they could eat it until they got through it. This would be because money goes only so far. Did Sharon's ~grown up~ children want milk for every meal?

Jo

-

fraggle

@gro ups.com

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:13 PM

Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

something wrong with being the proud parent of fur babies?

ok...how about it the kids wanted cake ..everyday.. .every meal...

is that ok?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 12:04 PM @gro ups.com Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

not a parent are you Fraggle? ( fur babies aside ), you are assuming that both parents are vegan to start. In my case my wife is a (zombie) flesheater, and so we brought our kids up as vegetarian rather than vegan as a compromise. I think compromise is good.

If drano was a foodstuff then I suppose ?........... ..my brain hurts.......

The Valley Vegan....... ......... ..fraggle <EBbrewpunx@earthlin k.com> wrote:

i think we wnet over this before

and, here's where i prolly get everyone pissed at me

ok..

so, when you have children, you are suppose to care for them, correct?

would you let a three yr old wander around in the street?

i would guess not..

as a parent(and in society), children are given boundaries, no?

some are more restrictive then others

so there's all ways of looking at it

but..if you just toss yer kid a KFC bucket once a week, and say "go at it", if you let yer toddler wander the streets, if you don't care if yer kid goes to skool, then you are labeled a bad parent

yes?

then, if you've made a choice to be vegan, why woudl it be ok to buy milk fer yer kids or dead flesh, or whichever?

don't you have a duty to raise the wee ones not only to be healthy, but to make good choices in life?

if they want to go buy cow pus at age 16, well, nuthin you can do about it besides give them information and try and help them along

but..if yer 6 yr old wants cow milk, tough...

what if they wanted to drink drano?

peter VV Nov 15, 2006 6:39 AM @gro ups.com Re: URGENT! Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act vot Monday

I think it depends on their age, if they arent old enough to get jobs yet to be self sufficient, then support them. When they are old enough to work and if they still live with parents, it will be up to them to buy whatever they like.Hopefully, they will look after themselves and support their own lifestyle choices without asking parents to support them by sponsoring their lactiverous activities. I think it would be selfish and uncaring on their part to be any other way?

The Valley Vegan....... ......Peter <metalscarab@ gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Peter

>I wouldnt condone forcing your lifestyle choices on your children by stopping them having dairy

But you would condone them forcing their lifestyle choices on their parents by making them buy milk? As you said, they're old enough to make their own decisions...

BB

Peter

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself and each time the price gets higher

Peter H

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger . History repeats itself

and each time the price gets higher

November 16, 2006

hi sharon,

I think it is good that you model compassion. Every child would want

that in a mom. I'm glad yu are, this world seems to have too many

cold people.

-anouk

, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace

wrote:

>

> My children aren't even teens ... they are young adults. It is not

that they are rebelling, it is that I " forced " meat-eating and

milk-drinking on them from early childhood. Now I have made a change

and they don't want to follow. As young adults, they are in a

position to make their own decisions. Hopefully they will decide

differently one day.

>

November 16, 2006

Either way, because you are vegan,

you have an influence on them.

they know why you are and are aware of the issues.

this is a good thing.

, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace

wrote:

>

> My children aren't even teens ... they are young adults. It is not

that they are rebelling, it is that I " forced " meat-eating and

milk-drinking on them from early childhood. Now I have made a change

and they don't want to follow. As young adults, they are in a

position to make their own decisions. Hopefully they will decide

differently one day.

>

> You are right, of course ... whatever our lifestyle is, we " force "

it on our children.

>

> Sharon

>

November 16, 2006

that's reasonalble,

I've been vegetarian since birth but,

I had some boyfriends who ate meat before..

I've could've wound up with them forever, who knows

it was unpredictable.

then in college, I felt myself attracted to vegetarians

I guess I was looking for common ground. I met my husband there.

I went vegan first, then my husband at his own pace.

everyone is on their own journey, and shouldn't be pushed.

When he was frying eggs, I would make little faces though.

I was bad.

if he were to leave me know,

I don't think I would date a meat eater.

-anouk

, Sharon Murch <compassion2grace

wrote:

>

> But if you are already in a relationship when you become a vegan, I

can't say I'd think it appropriate to dump the other person because

they are still eating meat. You just might love them, and you may

have made a commitment and that commitment should be honored. If you

continue to live with them, and exhibit your compassion in your life

as well as your diet, perhaps one day they will see the light also.

>

> Sharon

>

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