Guest guest Report post Posted March 7, 2005 Well, for women anyway, it is a very invasive surgery with all the attendent potential problems such as healing time, possible infection, etc. sara , " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote: > If it is so beneficial, I can't help wondering why more humans do not choose > to be neutered? > > BB > Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 Oh, I have to disagree, Peter. The abundance of "throw away" pets are the result of backyard breeders and those ditzy women who say, "I just wanted Little Sally and Little Johnny to see the birth of an animal." Or, I didn't want to neuter FiFi before she had at least one (spell that two or three) litter and I found homes for all them. Of course, that usually means the kids sitting out in front of the local grocery store giving them to lord knows who and most of those folks end up taking the resulting dogs to the pound because they weren't really prepared for a puppy that young (most of those folks get rid of the puppies/kittens between 4 to 6 weeks, wayyyyyy too young). Hmmmm, maybe we should neuter those folks instead <<eg>> Lynda - Peter Monday, March 07, 2005 10:48 AM Re: Re: Intro and Question Hi Lynda I agree with you about the pets issue. However, most "pets" are the result of an industry which breeds animals specifically for selling as pets. Neutering is a result of that industry, since it already produces way too many animals. Shut down the industry, and within a few years nature would find a proper balance of species, as it has done so well for millions of years. BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 As far as I can see you are saying the same as Peter. Stop the breeding for selling and you stop the problem. Jo , " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote: > Oh, I have to disagree, Peter. The abundance of " throw away " pets are the result of backyard breeders and those ditzy women who say, " I just wanted Little Sally and Little Johnny to see the birth of an animal. " Or, I didn't want to neuter FiFi before she had at least one (spell that two or three) litter and I found homes for all them. Of course, that usually means the kids sitting out in front of the local grocery store giving them to lord knows who and most of those folks end up taking the resulting dogs to the pound because they weren't really prepared for a puppy that young (most of those folks get rid of the puppies/kittens between 4 to 6 weeks, wayyyyyy too young). Hmmmm, maybe we should neuter those folks instead <<eg>> > > Lynda > - > Peter > > Monday, March 07, 2005 10:48 AM > Re: Re: Intro and Question > > > Hi Lynda > > I agree with you about the pets issue. However, most " pets " are the result of an industry which breeds animals specifically for selling as pets. Neutering is a result of that industry, since it already produces way too many animals. Shut down the industry, and within a few years nature would find a proper balance of species, as it has done so well for millions of years. > > BB > Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 Vasectomies are okay if you have already had your family - but why would you want one before that. Whenever it is done it is an unnatural surgical procedure. At least when humans choose to be sterilised it is their own choice. Jo , " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote: > <g> Ego and religion are the problems with humans, not cost as clinics do the vasectomy for very little money if you don't have insurance. > > Lynda > - > Valerie Fjallstrom > > Monday, March 07, 2005 12:00 PM > Re: Intro and Question > > > Vasectomies/hysterectomies are just way more expensive then spaying/neutering your pet. I wish more people would do it! > > > > If it is so beneficial, I can't help wondering why more humans do not choose > to be neutered? > > BB > Peter > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > -- ---------- > Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! > Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > > To send an email to - > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 ummm if you didn't want a family.... and, miss Jo, which exactly *natural* surgical procedures do you know? heartwerk Mar 8, 2005 4:37 AM Re: Intro and Question Vasectomies are okay if you have already had your family - but why would you want one before that. Whenever it is done it is an unnatural surgical procedure. At least when humans choose to be sterilised it is their own choice.Jo What you see is what you get You've made your bed, you better lie in it You choose your leaders and place your trust As their lies wash you down and their promises rust You'll see kidney machines replaced by rockets and guns And the public wants what the public gets But I don't get what this society wants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 Really? I didn't know that! Maybe I'll take my husband this week! Lynda <lurine wrote: <g> Ego and religion are the problems with humans, not cost as clinics do the vasectomy for very little money if you don't have insurance. Lynda - Valerie Fjallstrom Monday, March 07, 2005 12:00 PM Re: Intro and Question Vasectomies/hysterectomies are just way more expensive then spaying/neutering your pet. I wish more people would do it! If it is so beneficial, I can't help wondering why more humans do not chooseto be neutered?BBPeterTo send an email to - Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web To send an email to - To send an email to - Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 Uncontrolled population growth by any species is a train wreck for this planet. If folks don't start waking up and smelling the coffee, they aren't going to have to worry about being vegans or saving animals because nothing is going to live on this planet. Do you use vitamins, supplements, use modern medicine, have your kids vaccinated? Those aren't natural! Pets aren't natural. If you want to go back to nature, then go the whole nine yards. And give up the computer, cherry picking is egotistical. Lynda - heartwerk Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:37 AM Re: Intro and Question Vasectomies are okay if you have already had your family - but why would you want one before that. Whenever it is done it is an unnatural surgical procedure. At least when humans choose to be sterilised it is their own choice.Jo , "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:> <g> Ego and religion are the problems with humans, not cost as clinics do the vasectomy for very little money if you don't have insurance.> > Lynda> - > Valerie Fjallstrom > > Monday, March 07, 2005 12:00 PM> Re: Intro and Question> > > Vasectomies/hysterectomies are just way more expensive then spaying/neutering your pet. I wish more people would do it!> > > > If it is so beneficial, I can't help wondering why more humans do not choose> to be neutered?> > BB> Peter> > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > > Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! > Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > > To send an email to - > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 If you don't want a family there is contraception - why have an operation, afterall you may want a family ten years on. My point was that - no oepration is natural. Jo - fraggle Tuesday, March 08, 2005 3:32 PM Re: Re: Intro and Question ummm if you didn't want a family.... and, miss Jo, which exactly *natural* surgical procedures do you know? heartwerk Mar 8, 2005 4:37 AM Re: Intro and Question Vasectomies are okay if you have already had your family - but why would you want one before that. Whenever it is done it is an unnatural surgical procedure. At least when humans choose to be sterilised it is their own choice.JoTo send an email to - What you see is what you get You've made your bed, you better lie in it You choose your leaders and place your trust As their lies wash you down and their promises rust You'll see kidney machines replaced by rockets and guns And the public wants what the public gets But I don't get what this society wants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 umm trust me... contraception is only partially successful actually..should you be typing to me right now..? i'd be careful.. *shrug* what if you never want kids tho... i know you've got at least one youngin Jo, but lotsa ppl never want kids.. and you could always adopt lordy knows there are enough unwanted children already just my two cents... Jo Cwazy Mar 8, 2005 9:41 AM Re: Re: Intro and Question If you don't want a family there is contraception - why have an operation, afterall you may want a family ten years on. My point was that - no oepration is natural. Jo - fraggle Tuesday, March 08, 2005 3:32 PM Re: Re: Intro and Question ummm if you didn't want a family.... and, miss Jo, which exactly *natural* surgical procedures do you know? heartwerk Mar 8, 2005 4:37 AM Re: Intro and Question Vasectomies are okay if you have already had your family - but why would you want one before that. Whenever it is done it is an unnatural surgical procedure. At least when humans choose to be sterilised it is their own choice.JoTo send an email to - What you see is what you get You've made your bed, you better lie in it You choose your leaders and place your trust As their lies wash you down and their promises rust You'll see kidney machines replaced by rockets and guns And the public wants what the public gets But I don't get what this society wants To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 sorry...just had a really weird vision of:: valerie "come on honey, wanna go for a ride?! Come on, in the car! lets go! yeah, we are going to the bar/football game/sporting goods store! in you go!" (sorry..was trying to think of quintessential male things to do...) Valerie Fjallstrom Mar 8, 2005 7:57 AM Re: Intro and Question Really? I didn't know that! Maybe I'll take my husband this week! Lynda <lurine wrote: <g> Ego and religion are the problems with humans, not cost as clinics do the vasectomy for very little money if you don't have insurance. Lynda What you see is what you get You've made your bed, you better lie in it You choose your leaders and place your trust As their lies wash you down and their promises rust You'll see kidney machines replaced by rockets and guns And the public wants what the public gets But I don't get what this society wants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 Hear, hear! - Lynda 3/7/2005 4:39:01 PM Re: Re: Intro and Question Which is why one should neuter if one is going to have pets. We do rescues and have spent thousands on these "throw away" animals. We make sure there are no additional puppies or kittens coming into a world where thousands are subjected to a needle or a death chamber or tossed on the side of a road every single day. Lynda - Anna Blaine Monday, March 07, 2005 11:08 AM Re: Re: Intro and Question I agree that ideally there would be no such things as "pets"; animals would have self determination over their own lives. But they way things are in the real world makes this impossible. Which is more humane for the cats I share my home with - to turn them out in the cold to forage for food on their own, to brave the busy streets where they could easily get run over by a car, have to fight with other cats and wild animals, or, goddess forbid, be harmed by some cruel person who takes out their pain on defenseless animals? To have no health care and be subject to injury or disease? Or is it better to provide healthy food on a daily basis, a warm, safe place to sleep at night, vaccinations and prompt care for any illness or injury, and tons of affection? Love, AnnaTo send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 Why would I choose to sterilize myself before having a family? Because I suffer from a hereditary disease that I wouldn't wish on anyone, much less my children. There's something like a 90% chance that I will pass on what I have to offspring, not to mention that the stress of having children could literally kill me. And what if I do have children and then die on them, depriving them of a mother? That wouldn't be fair. That's why. Love, Anna > [Original Message] > heartwerk <heartwork > > 3/8/2005 5:38:55 AM > Re: Intro and Question > > > > Vasectomies are okay if you have already had your family - but why > would you want one before that. Whenever it is done it is an > unnatural surgical procedure. At least when humans choose to be > sterilised it is their own choice. > > Jo > > , " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote: > > <g> Ego and religion are the problems with humans, not cost as > clinics do the vasectomy for very little money if you don't have > insurance. > > > > Lynda > > - > > Valerie Fjallstrom > > > > Monday, March 07, 2005 12:00 PM > > Re: Intro and Question > > > > > > Vasectomies/hysterectomies are just way more expensive then > spaying/neutering your pet. I wish more people would do it! > > > > > > > > If it is so beneficial, I can't help wondering why more humans > do not choose > > to be neutered? > > > > BB > > Peter > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ---------- > > Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! > > Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 Hi Fraggle >actually..should you be typing to me right now..? >i'd be careful.. ??? >*shrug* >what if you never want kids tho... >i know you've got at least one youngin Jo, but lotsa ppl never want kids.. >and you could always adopt >lordy knows there are enough unwanted children already >just my two cents....... but what if you meet someone and fall in love with them and they want a child? You really wouldn't want to deprive them of their chance of being a mum/dad if that's what they want. Jo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 8, 2005 adopt... foster get a pet rock... Jo Cwazy Mar 8, 2005 11:31 AM Re: Re: Intro and Question Hi Fraggle >actually..should you be typing to me right now..? >i'd be careful.. ??? >*shrug* >what if you never want kids tho... >i know you've got at least one youngin Jo, but lotsa ppl never want kids.. >and you could always adopt >lordy knows there are enough unwanted children already >just my two cents....... but what if you meet someone and fall in love with them and they want a child? You really wouldn't want to deprive them of their chance of being a mum/dad if that's what they want. Jo To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 9, 2005 Dare I suggest that it's not solely that other person's choice to decide if I have a kid, anyway? It is also my choice, and if I decide I don't want to, then it's my decision to make. You can't make every decision in life based on making other people happy or you will go stark raving mad. Just a thought. Sara , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > Hi Fraggle > >*shrug* > >what if you never want kids tho... > >i know you've got at least one youngin Jo, but lotsa ppl never want kids.. > >and you could always adopt > >lordy knows there are enough unwanted children already > >just my two cents... > > .... but what if you meet someone and fall in love with them and they want a child? You really wouldn't want to deprive them of their chance of being a mum/dad if that's what they want. > > Jo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 9, 2005 Not the same Fraggle. Jo , fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote: > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 9, 2005 Reproducing yourself is not uncontrolled - it is replacing. If each couple has two children, they are merely replacing themselves not having a population boom. I don't think anyone has mentioned going back to nature, so cherry- picking does not come into it, and I think I am not egotistical - but sterilisation is rather extreme. Don't forget that bodies are made with the parts they need and producing the hormones they need. These hormones are not there only to produce offspring but are important to the body. This applies to men as well as women. Jo , " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote: > Uncontrolled population growth by any species is a train wreck for this planet. If folks don't start waking up and smelling the coffee, they aren't going to have to worry about being vegans or saving animals because nothing is going to live on this planet. > > Do you use vitamins, supplements, use modern medicine, have your kids vaccinated? Those aren't natural! Pets aren't natural. If you want to go back to nature, then go the whole nine yards. And give up the computer, cherry picking is egotistical. > > Lynda > - > heartwerk > > Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:37 AM > Re: Intro and Question > > > > Vasectomies are okay if you have already had your family - but why > would you want one before that. Whenever it is done it is an > unnatural surgical procedure. At least when humans choose to be > sterilised it is their own choice. > > Jo > > , " Lynda " <lurine@s...> wrote: > > <g> Ego and religion are the problems with humans, not cost as > clinics do the vasectomy for very little money if you don't have > insurance. > > > > Lynda > > - > > Valerie Fjallstrom > > > > Monday, March 07, 2005 12:00 PM > > Re: Intro and Question > > > > > > Vasectomies/hysterectomies are just way more expensive then > spaying/neutering your pet. I wish more people would do it! > > > > > > > > If it is so beneficial, I can't help wondering why more humans > do not choose > > to be neutered? > > > > BB > > Peter > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- ---- > ---------- > > Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! > > Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 9, 2005 Sterilization has no effect on hormones. They have no effect on sex. The only effect they have is on reproduction. Further, man has spent much too much time doing more than replacing. And, people are saying that beef, chicken and so forth should not be raised for food. The only option that realistically leaves is to sterilize all those animals and when they die out they die out. then let nature take its course with the rest. Lynda - heartwerk Wednesday, March 09, 2005 12:13 AM Re: Intro and Question Reproducing yourself is not uncontrolled - it is replacing. If each couple has two children, they are merely replacing themselves not having a population boom.I don't think anyone has mentioned going back to nature, so cherry-picking does not come into it, and I think I am not egotistical - but sterilisation is rather extreme. Don't forget that bodies are made with the parts they need and producing the hormones they need. These hormones are not there only to produce offspring but are important to the body. This applies to men as well as women.Jo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 9, 2005 fer you miss jo, fer you there are too many lil humans on this lil rock of ours...and i see no reason why its wrong fer someone who wants to get their tubes tied, be it the boi er the gurl... and on that note, i ungracefully bow out of the subject..i'm not gonna change yer mind(and really, wasn't trying to), and yer not gonna change mine... cheers fraggle -Original Message----- heartwerk Mar 9, 2005 12:07 AM Re: Intro and Question Not the same Fraggle.Jo , fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:> To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 9, 2005 but wot if you already passed stark raving mad awhile ago You can't make every decision in life based on making other people happy or you will go stark raving mad.Just a thought.Sara I’m gonna tell all you fascists you may be surprised The people in this world are getting organized You’re bound to lose, you fascists are bound to lose Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 9, 2005 ack..i said i was gonna bow out dang it! actually..depends on wot you mean by sterilization.. any tampering with the sex organs is going to change how the body functions, on some level.... and they are used for more then just sex, there's secondary sexual functions and other lil synergistic things now..gettin the vasdeferens snipped shouldn't really do much at all...005 7:17 AM Re: Re: Intro and Question Sterilization has no effect on hormones. They have no effect on sex. The only effect they have is on reproduction. Further, man has spent much too much time doing more than replacing. And, people are saying that beef, chicken and so forth should not be raised for food. The only option that realistically leaves is to sterilize all those animals and when they die out they die out. then let nature take its course with the rest. Lynda - heartwerk Wednesday, March 09, 2005 12:13 AM Re: Intro and Question Reproducing yourself is not uncontrolled - it is replacing. If each couple has two children, they are merely replacing themselves not having a population boom.I don't think anyone has mentioned going back to nature, so cherry-picking does not come into it, and I think I am not egotistical - but sterilisation is rather extreme. Don't forget that bodies are made with the parts they need and producing the hormones they need. These hormones are not there only to produce offspring but are important to the body. This applies to men as well as women.Jo To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 9, 2005 Second answer to this .... could you say that to someone you love? How would they feel about it? Would they have hoped for a say in the matter? Jo - fraggle Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:33 PM Re: Re: Intro and Question adopt... foster get a pet rock... Jo Cwazy Mar 8, 2005 11:31 AM Re: Re: Intro and Question Hi Fraggle >actually..should you be typing to me right now..? >i'd be careful.. ??? >*shrug* >what if you never want kids tho... >i know you've got at least one youngin Jo, but lotsa ppl never want kids.. >and you could always adopt >lordy knows there are enough unwanted children already >just my two cents....... but what if you meet someone and fall in love with them and they want a child? You really wouldn't want to deprive them of their chance of being a mum/dad if that's what they want. Jo To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 9, 2005 I never suggested it was solely one person's decision - but you are. I could be mistaken but I think love involves compromise and consideration, from both partners. Jo > Dare I suggest that it's not solely that other person's choice to > decide if I have a kid, anyway? It is also my choice, and if I > decide I don't want to, then it's my decision to make. You can't > make every decision in life based on making other people happy or > you will go stark raving mad. > Just a thought. > Sara > > , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > > Hi Fraggle > > >*shrug* > > >what if you never want kids tho... > > >i know you've got at least one youngin Jo, but lotsa ppl never > want kids.. > > >and you could always adopt > > >lordy knows there are enough unwanted children already > > >just my two cents... > > > > .... but what if you meet someone and fall in love with them and > they want a child? You really wouldn't want to deprive them of > their chance of being a mum/dad if that's what they want. > > > > Jo To send an email to - > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 9, 2005 Hi Lynda > Do you use vitamins, supplements, use modern medicine, have your kids vaccinated? Those aren't natural! > Pets aren't natural. If you want to go back to nature, then go the whole nine yards. And give up the computer, > cherry picking is egotistical. You appear to have completely missed the point. As a vegan, I live as far as is possible without harming others - it has nothing to do with wanting to "go back to nature". If we follow the logic that we shouldn't do anything modern, then perhaps we should go back to human sacrifice, slavery and reading of entrails. None of those could be considered "modern", but they certainly cause a lot of harm. "Cherry picking", as you call it, is essential in the way everyone lives their lives. Some of us "cherry pick" due to our ethical views, others do it because they like to be a sheep and do what the rest of society does - then usually try to criticise those of us who are prepared to "stand out from the crowd" for actually caring. Personally, I'd rather pick and choose how to live sensibly than just be a sheep and continually do harm because otherwise I might get accused of "cherry picking". Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 9, 2005 Just because some people have 'spent much too much time doing more than replacing' does not mean that people should not have children at all - what a ludicrous idea. Do you feel that people who do not have children are superior to those who do? Jo Further, man has spent much too much time doing more than replacing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
