Intro and Question

[Guest guest]

Hi, my name is Lynda and our youngest kidlet (she's 12) decided a little

over a couple of years ago to become a vegetarian. Actually, it has been an

adventure <g> First she decided she would be a " sort of vegetarian " and

would still eat seafood. Then she decided to be what she informed us is an

ovo/lacto vegetarian. She gave it up for a couple of months (added fish

back into the diet) and then was right back to being the o/l vegetarian.

 

A couple of weeks ago she decided to be a vegan and then decided that she

didn't have enough information but also didn't really like some of the stuff

she saw (radical animal rights/vegan). Then she asked some questions that I

couldn't answer, so here I am.

 

One of her main questions is why no eggs or dairy? She says she can

understand commercially raised eggs being cruel and factory farm dairies

being cruel but doesn't understand why she would be attacked (yes, she was

attacked) for eating eggs that we raise ourselves since, as she said, they

are pets and better cared for and loved than most people's pet dogs and cats

(they all have names, they wander at will and lay the eggs all over the

place and just leave them).

 

So that is my question for folks and maybe someone(s) here can help us

better understand or are there vegans and vegans?

 

Lynda

[Guest guest]

Hi Linda

 

Welcome to the group.

 

I think the answer to your question may not be particularly what you wanted

to hear. Where did you get your hens? Presumably you bought them from

somewhere, or they were rescued from somewhere. Anyway, out of the eggs

that are hatched, approximately 50% will be males - males do not lay eggs -

they do not create profit for anyone - they are unnecessary - they are

killed - and only the hens are allowed life so that they can produce eggs.

 

Vegans do not eat eggs at all. Vegans do not eat any animal or animal

product.

 

Jo

 

-

" Lynda " <lurine

 

Saturday, March 05, 2005 6:56 AM

Intro and Question

 

 

>

>

> Hi, my name is Lynda and our youngest kidlet (she's 12) decided a little

> over a couple of years ago to become a vegetarian. Actually, it has been

an

> adventure <g> First she decided she would be a " sort of vegetarian " and

> would still eat seafood. Then she decided to be what she informed us is

an

> ovo/lacto vegetarian. She gave it up for a couple of months (added fish

> back into the diet) and then was right back to being the o/l vegetarian.

>

> A couple of weeks ago she decided to be a vegan and then decided that she

> didn't have enough information but also didn't really like some of the

stuff

> she saw (radical animal rights/vegan). Then she asked some questions that

I

> couldn't answer, so here I am.

>

> One of her main questions is why no eggs or dairy? She says she can

> understand commercially raised eggs being cruel and factory farm dairies

> being cruel but doesn't understand why she would be attacked (yes, she was

> attacked) for eating eggs that we raise ourselves since, as she said, they

> are pets and better cared for and loved than most people's pet dogs and

cats

> (they all have names, they wander at will and lay the eggs all over the

> place and just leave them).

>

> So that is my question for folks and maybe someone(s) here can help us

> better understand or are there vegans and vegans?

>

> Lynda

>

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda,

Welcome to the group. In answer to you question about dairy see the attached link:

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/cows/dairy_cow.php

There is also many associated links on the right hand side of the screen.

Also see the following on the exploitation of hens:

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/hens.php

 

Hope this helps you understand what makes us vegans tick..

 

P.S. There is also an interesting link on the homepage below in answer to the latest misquoted "study" by Proffessor Allen.....

 

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/

 

The Valley Vegan.........

Lynda <lurine wrote:

Hi, my name is Lynda and our youngest kidlet (she's 12) decided a littleover a couple of years ago to become a vegetarian. Actually, it has been anadventure First she decided she would be a "sort of vegetarian" andwould still eat seafood. Then she decided to be what she informed us is anovo/lacto vegetarian. She gave it up for a couple of months (added fishback into the diet) and then was right back to being the o/l vegetarian.A couple of weeks ago she decided to be a vegan and then decided that shedidn't have enough information but also didn't really like some of the stuffshe saw (radical animal rights/vegan). Then she asked some questions that Icouldn't answer, so here I am.One of her main questions is why no eggs or dairy? She says she canunderstand commercially raised eggs being cruel and factory farm dairiesbeing

cruel but doesn't understand why she would be attacked (yes, she wasattacked) for eating eggs that we raise ourselves since, as she said, theyare pets and better cared for and loved than most people's pet dogs and cats(they all have names, they wander at will and lay the eggs all over theplace and just leave them).So that is my question for folks and maybe someone(s) here can help usbetter understand or are there vegans and vegans?Lynda

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda,

 

Congrats on your daughter making a decision that will all but ensure good

life-long health. As for eggs and dairy, I've always seen it as a sort of

feminist issue - how would you like it if someone stole your ova or breast

milk to eat? No matter how good you're treated, it still seems pretty

barbaric. Eggs are meant to be baby chickens, not breakfast, and cow's

milk is food for baby cows, not adult humans.

 

Welcome to our fun group!

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

> [Original Message]

> Lynda <lurine

>

> 3/5/2005 5:33:56 AM

> Intro and Question

>

>

>

> Hi, my name is Lynda and our youngest kidlet (she's 12) decided a little

> over a couple of years ago to become a vegetarian. Actually, it has been

an

> adventure <g> First she decided she would be a " sort of vegetarian " and

> would still eat seafood. Then she decided to be what she informed us is

an

> ovo/lacto vegetarian. She gave it up for a couple of months (added fish

> back into the diet) and then was right back to being the o/l vegetarian.

>

> A couple of weeks ago she decided to be a vegan and then decided that she

> didn't have enough information but also didn't really like some of the

stuff

> she saw (radical animal rights/vegan). Then she asked some questions

that I

> couldn't answer, so here I am.

>

> One of her main questions is why no eggs or dairy? She says she can

> understand commercially raised eggs being cruel and factory farm dairies

> being cruel but doesn't understand why she would be attacked (yes, she was

> attacked) for eating eggs that we raise ourselves since, as she said, they

> are pets and better cared for and loved than most people's pet dogs and

cats

> (they all have names, they wander at will and lay the eggs all over the

> place and just leave them).

>

> So that is my question for folks and maybe someone(s) here can help us

> better understand or are there vegans and vegans?

>

> Lynda

>

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

One more thing - my father is a veterinarian and former farmer and he says

that no matter how well the cows are treated, no matter how organic the

milk, the dairy industry is still really rough on cows.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

> [Original Message]

> Lynda <lurine

>

> 3/5/2005 5:33:56 AM

> Intro and Question

>

>

>

> Hi, my name is Lynda and our youngest kidlet (she's 12) decided a little

> over a couple of years ago to become a vegetarian. Actually, it has been

an

> adventure <g> First she decided she would be a " sort of vegetarian " and

> would still eat seafood. Then she decided to be what she informed us is

an

> ovo/lacto vegetarian. She gave it up for a couple of months (added fish

> back into the diet) and then was right back to being the o/l vegetarian.

>

> A couple of weeks ago she decided to be a vegan and then decided that she

> didn't have enough information but also didn't really like some of the

stuff

> she saw (radical animal rights/vegan). Then she asked some questions

that I

> couldn't answer, so here I am.

>

> One of her main questions is why no eggs or dairy? She says she can

> understand commercially raised eggs being cruel and factory farm dairies

> being cruel but doesn't understand why she would be attacked (yes, she was

> attacked) for eating eggs that we raise ourselves since, as she said, they

> are pets and better cared for and loved than most people's pet dogs and

cats

> (they all have names, they wander at will and lay the eggs all over the

> place and just leave them).

>

> So that is my question for folks and maybe someone(s) here can help us

> better understand or are there vegans and vegans?

>

> Lynda

>

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Lynda, and welcome. I hope you learn what you need to know here; I'll start by offering my "take" on the egg issue.

 

If you keep your own chickens as pets, you obviously would treat them well. That's a given. But if you kept a cat for a pet and she had kittens, would you eat them? Of course not. The point is that that hen has a right to keep her young.

 

There's also the question of what happens to this pet after her laying years are over? Hens produce less than 500 eggs during this time. Will she continue to be a loved and cared-for pet until she dies? Ordinary laying hens are slaughtered at that point.

 

The case of a dairy cow is slightly different. But even if she is NOT given hormones to optimize her milk production and NOT kept in a cement-floored stall, she still is "forced" to give up her calf so that her milk can be used for human consumption. They say the mournful cries when a cow is separated from her calf are real tear-jerkers. Her milk production also decreases dramatically after two calving cycles, and so even on so-called organic farms, is then sold to be slaughtered. She doesn't live out her days in some peaceful meadow like they'd like you to believe--at least not unless she's rescued. And there are organizations that do that. But not many.

 

I've answered only to what I thought would be relevant to your situation with your daughter. I consider myself vegan for the protection of my health, which is a whole different matter entirely. At least that's how I started. But I support the ideas above as well, more and more every day. I equate my feelings about those ideas with the political situation in the world. Who are WE to try to control other cultures (people/animals) just because we want their resources (oil/dairy products)?

 

Susan

 

Lynda <lurine wrote:

Hi, my name is Lynda and our youngest kidlet (she's 12) decided a littleover a couple of years ago to become a vegetarian. Actually, it has been anadventure <g> First she decided she would be a "sort of vegetarian" andwould still eat seafood. Then she decided to be what she informed us is anovo/lacto vegetarian. She gave it up for a couple of months (added fishback into the diet) and then was right back to being the o/l vegetarian.A couple of weeks ago she decided to be a vegan and then decided that shedidn't have enough information but also didn't really like some of the stuffshe saw (radical animal rights/vegan). Then she asked some questions that Icouldn't answer, so here I am.One of her main questions is why no eggs or dairy? She says she canunderstand commercially raised eggs

being cruel and factory farm dairiesbeing cruel but doesn't understand why she would be attacked (yes, she wasattacked) for eating eggs that we raise ourselves since, as she said, theyare pets and better cared for and loved than most people's pet dogs and cats(they all have names, they wander at will and lay the eggs all over theplace and just leave them).So that is my question for folks and maybe someone(s) here can help usbetter understand or are there vegans and vegans?LyndaTo send an email to -

Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web

[Guest guest]

>>>>>They say the mournful cries when a cow is separated from her calf are real tear-jerkers.

 

We hear the cows when the calves are taken away - they call for several days, and it sounds very mournful. It makes us sad.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda,

 

Obviously you've already gotten many good answers. This group is a

great one. I too initially joined when my 13 yo daughter decided to

become vegan (our family was already vegetarian at my request). End

result - our diet at home is exclusively vegan now - for everyone.

Including our cosmetics, shampoo etc. It took one evening in front

of the computer (watching PETA videos) for my husband to swear off

everything.

 

The first few months I tried cooking vegan versions of our

vegetarian meals, which usually just meant trying to find a cheese

substitute for something. I'll be honest, I spent a lot of money in

the beginning trying to find good substitutes for familiar foods and

on some unusual products. At this point those things are just part

of my normal shopping list. Now I feel like I can make anything.

Because I'm cooking for teenagers (my older daughter would prefer to

not be vegetarian) I end up making more familiar favorites that they

request - pizza, tacos, french dip sandwiches, veggie burgers etc.

If it was just my husband and I, we would probably eat those things

less frequently. But we also love Indian, Persian, Chinese etc

which are all cuisines that have tons of vegan options.

 

 

Good luck and welcome to this group.

 

nancy

[Guest guest]

thanks for the links.

 

Lynda

 

-

peter hurd

Saturday, March 05, 2005 6:39 AM

Re: Intro and Question

 

Hi Lynda,

Welcome to the group. In answer to you question about dairy see the attached link:

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/cows/dairy_cow.php

There is also many associated links on the right hand side of the screen.

Also see the following on the exploitation of hens:

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/hens.php

 

Hope this helps you understand what makes us vegans tick..

 

P.S. There is also an interesting link on the homepage below in answer to the latest misquoted "study" by Proffessor Allen.....

 

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/

 

The Valley Vegan.........

Lynda <lurine wrote:

Hi, my name is Lynda and our youngest kidlet (she's 12) decided a littleover a couple of years ago to become a vegetarian. Actually, it has been anadventure First she decided she would be a "sort of vegetarian" andwould still eat seafood. Then she decided to be what she informed us is anovo/lacto vegetarian. She gave it up for a couple of months (added fishback into the diet) and then was right back to being the o/l vegetarian.A couple of weeks ago she decided to be a vegan and then decided that shedidn't have enough information but also didn't really like some of the stuffshe saw (radical animal rights/vegan). Then she asked some questions that Icouldn't answer, so here I am.One of her main questions is why no eggs or dairy? She says she canunderstand commercially raised eggs being cruel and factory farm dairiesbeing cruel but doesn't understand why she would be attacked (yes, she wasattacked) for eating eggs that we raise ourselves since, as she said, theyare pets and better cared for and loved than most people's pet dogs and cats(they all have names, they wander at will and lay the eggs all over theplace and just leave them).So that is my question for folks and maybe someone(s) here can help usbetter understand or are there vegans and vegans?Lynda

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda,

and welcome to the group hope we can all answer your questions and by all means feel free

to challenge us and ask additional questions (I know I speak for the whole group here )

 

let me say to start my grandmother on my fathers side was a Vegetarian since before I was born (1958)

and I had a lot of incite into eating without meat as I grew up.. my only regret in life is that I didn't fully embrace Veganism at a much earlier age it would have save the lives of 100's maybe even 1000's of animals

Vegan is the total life without use of any animal products.. so this includes laundry soap that is made by companies who don't test on animals, cosmetics , toiletries, cleaning products and I even fertilize my garden with non animal mulch.

so maybe the people your daughter talked to were trying to keep her from using the word Vegan to only describe her diet & insisting she keep the words meaning pure (maybe not that tactfully though)

ok saying all that this is what we all stride for and is our goal to achieve a world where animals are free to do as animals do and people respect them and do what it is people do, I do not believe the dominant race on any world can be a predator in a long term sustainable manor and reach the population we have achieved without destroying the environment and hey just look around we are destroying the planet..

now as for your questions about liquid chickens and cow pus

I am sure you take good care of your chicken(s) but as someone else said that is really a baby chicken waiting in the wings (no pun intended) I have called eggs Liquid chicken for years and it reminds me what they really are.

as for bovine milk, blood, pus, and hormones not to mention insecticide..

there is an acceptable level of both blood and pus found in all commercial milk it is written into the standards both in the USA and Australia (where I live) check out www.notmilk.com

so even though the milk is homogenised there still remains the PUS in the milk. this comes from mastitis the cows get from being hooked up to the milking machine everyday of their lives.

I really don't see how you can be a vegan without being ... a health nut..an environmentalist...an animal activist..or humanitarian

so your daughters choice puts her into a group of people who really care about the world around them. this Group the vegans make it known that they want to protect all animals and the environment so when asked well... we reply..

I hope I don't sound to preachy I tried to keep this brief cause if you got the long version well ... hahaha..

also try www.peta2.org www.goveganradio.com

and there is a book to read called "Vegan the new ethics of eating" by Erik Marcus www.vegan.com

 

hope this helps

all the best

Craig

 

 

 

Intro and QuestionHi, my name is Lynda and our youngest kidlet (she's 12) decided a littleover a couple of years ago to become a vegetarian. Actually, it has been anadventure <g> First she decided she would be a "sort of vegetarian" andwould still eat seafood. Then she decided to be what she informed us is anovo/lacto vegetarian. She gave it up for a couple of months (added fishback into the diet) and then was right back to being the o/l vegetarian.A couple of weeks ago she decided to be a vegan and then decided that shedidn't have enough information but also didn't really like some of the stuffshe saw (radical animal rights/vegan). Then she asked some questions that Icouldn't answer, so here I am.One of her main questions is why no eggs or dairy? She says she canunderstand commercially raised eggs being cruel and factory farm dairiesbeing cruel but doesn't understand why she would be attacked (yes, she wasattacked) for eating eggs that we raise ourselves since, as she said, theyare pets and better cared for and loved than most people's pet dogs and cats(they all have names, they wander at will and lay the eggs all over theplace and just leave them).So that is my question for folks and maybe someone(s) here can help usbetter understand or are there vegans and vegans?Lynda

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda

 

> One of her main questions is why no eggs or dairy? She says she can

> understand commercially raised eggs being cruel and factory farm dairies

> being cruel but doesn't understand why she would be attacked (yes, she was

> attacked) for eating eggs that we raise ourselves since, as she said, they

> are pets and better cared for and loved than most people's pet dogs and

cats

> (they all have names, they wander at will and lay the eggs all over the

> place and just leave them).

> So that is my question for folks and maybe someone(s) here can help us

> better understand or are there vegans and vegans?

 

Welcome to the list - I'm sure that lots of people will give you helpful

information, but here's my thoughts...

 

Dairy products are the result of lactation, which only occurs naturally in

mammals after they have given birth - the milk produced is for the

offspring. As a result, the offspring is taken away from the mother within a

few days of birth - if it is male, it will almost certainly be killed, since

it is useless for producing milk. If it is female, it will be used for dairy

in the future (or possibly killed). Dairy cows are then over-milked (i.e.

get as much out of them as possible), and often kept locked in cages which

leave them literally no room to move, having to spend their entire lives

standing in their own excrement. As a result of over-milking, there are

severe problems with mastitis (so much so, that the European Union has

produced legislation that says milk may not be sold if it contains over 20%

puss and blood). Even free range herds are treated as commercial items (and

still over-milked), rather than as living creatures - as a result, when they

are no longer able to produce milk, they are simply killed.

 

I won't bother to comment on factory farmed eggs, since you already seem

aware of at least some of the issues. Free Range eggs are often not as kind

as is made out - many " free range " farms have huge overcrowding of hens,

meaning that although they are not actually kept in battery cages, the

majority still do not get to see the light of day because they end up at the

back of the coup. Again, problems with health, largely due to overcrowding

and living in excrement! Again, there is the problem of chickens being

treated as commercial objects, and killed when they are of no further

commercial value. Also, they have to breed chickens in order to keep enough

egg-layers. Of course, 50% of them are useless (since it is only females

which lay eggs), and these are killed within a few days of birth. This would

be the case with any organisation which supplies chickens as battery hens,

free range, or egg-laying pets!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Craig Dearth wrote:

 

> now as for your questions about liquid chickens and cow pus

> I am sure you take good care of your chicken(s) but as someone else said

> that is really a baby chicken waiting in the wings (no pun intended) I have

> called eggs Liquid chicken for years and it reminds me what they really are.

 

But what if the eggs are not fertilized? Then they have no chicken embryos

in them. Personally, after so many years as a vegan, I would have no

desire to eat them regardless. But in terms of my opinion about the ethics

of someone else's choice to eat eggs that come from well cared for hens,

with a commitment to continue to take care of them for their entire

natural lives, even after they stop laying--I do see a distinction between

fertilized vs. unfertilized eggs.

 

A few years ago I intercepted six hens and two roosters that were on their

way to be slaughtered. I live in the city and have no place to keep

chickens, plus the zoning ordinances don't allow them. I made a frantic

call to the Farm Sanctuary, which gave me names of people who were willing

to adopt chickens as pets. The birds stayed in my basement for four days

before I found an adoptive home, did the veterinarian and reference

checks, and took the chickens to it. That was enough time for me to start

liking them and thinking that it might be nice to have some chickens of my

own, if I ever live in a suitable place.

 

Now, let's suppose that someday I do live in a place that would be

suitable for chickens. Suppose I put my name on that same Farm Sanctuary

list to adopt rescue chickens. Certainly in adopting them, I would be

making the same commitment that I make when I adopt a dog or a cat: care

for life, regardless of whether or not the animal is " useful " to me. So,

suppose in this scenario that I were to end up adopting only hens, no

roosters. I probably would want either hens only or roosters only, unless

I had the space to keep hens and roosters completely separate, because I

have no desire to breed animals. (Can roosters be safely neutered?)

 

If my hens were laying eggs that could not possibly be fertilized and had

no potential to hatch baby chickens, what would you say I should do with

them? I would not want to eat them, just because the idea seems

distasteful to me. But would it be a bad thing if I fed them to my dogs,

cats, or houseguests? What if I gave them away or sold them, so that at

least the people who received those few eggs would have less occasion to

buy factory farmed eggs? Would that be worse than treating the eggs as

waste products?

 

Jim Sinclair jisincla

[Guest guest]

A neutered chicken is a capon and yes it is done and isn't a problem although the average vet usually has no training in this.

 

Hens lay eggs whether or not there are roosters and even with a rooster in residence all their eggs are not fertile. That is why a hen will lay for a period of time and then she'll decide to start setting eggs. She knows when the time is and when her eggs are fertile.

 

We use some of our banties and silkies to set eggs of endangered or rare species for release to the wild. We started doing that about 15 years ago when we first worked with the local bird rescue folks (catching birds that got into buildings, hurt/wounded birds we transported to volunteer vets and nestlings that had lost their parents or fell out of nests too high to put them back in that we took to the rescue center to be fed and then released).

 

Lynda

 

-

Jim Sinclair

Saturday, March 05, 2005 7:20 PM

RE: Intro and Question

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Craig Dearth wrote:> now as for your questions about liquid chickens and cow pus> I am sure you take good care of your chicken(s) but as someone else said> that is really a baby chicken waiting in the wings (no pun intended) I have> called eggs Liquid chicken for years and it reminds me what they really are.But what if the eggs are not fertilized? Then they have no chicken embryosin them. Personally, after so many years as a vegan, I would have nodesire to eat them regardless. But in terms of my opinion about the ethicsof someone else's choice to eat eggs that come from well cared for hens,with a commitment to continue to take care of them for their entirenatural lives, even after they stop laying--I do see a distinction betweenfertilized vs. unfertilized eggs.A few years ago I intercepted six hens and two roosters that were on theirway to be slaughtered. I live in the city and have no place to keepchickens, plus the zoning ordinances don't allow them. I made a franticcall to the Farm Sanctuary, which gave me names of people who were willingto adopt chickens as pets. The birds stayed in my basement for four daysbefore I found an adoptive home, did the veterinarian and referencechecks, and took the chickens to it. That was enough time for me to startliking them and thinking that it might be nice to have some chickens of myown, if I ever live in a suitable place.Now, let's suppose that someday I do live in a place that would besuitable for chickens. Suppose I put my name on that same Farm Sanctuarylist to adopt rescue chickens. Certainly in adopting them, I would bemaking the same commitment that I make when I adopt a dog or a cat: carefor life, regardless of whether or not the animal is "useful" to me. So,suppose in this scenario that I were to end up adopting only hens, noroosters. I probably would want either hens only or roosters only, unlessI had the space to keep hens and roosters completely separate, because Ihave no desire to breed animals. (Can roosters be safely neutered?)If my hens were laying eggs that could not possibly be fertilized and hadno potential to hatch baby chickens, what would you say I should do withthem? I would not want to eat them, just because the idea seemsdistasteful to me. But would it be a bad thing if I fed them to my dogs,cats, or houseguests? What if I gave them away or sold them, so that atleast the people who received those few eggs would have less occasion tobuy factory farmed eggs? Would that be worse than treating the eggs aswaste products?Jim Sinclair jisinclaTo send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda

 

> However, just one last question, purely curiosity. What % of vegans would one say are active animal rights

> activisits? Do they do rescues? Do they boycott pet stores? (We don't buy ANY critters from pet shops and

> do and have done animal rescues for over 45 years)

 

I can't give a well researched "statistical" answer, but in my experience, the majority seem to be involved in activism of some sort (whether that's letter writing, protest marches, hunt sabbing, or any other sort of activism). Just thinking of the vegans I know in real life (as opposed to ones I know purely over the internet), I can't think of a single one who hasn't involved themselves in activism at some time. Although this might be simply because I am politically active, and thereby meet people through activism.

 

> Oops, I lied <g> Another question. Do the majority of vegans buy organic only and make all their own food?

> Or is that a whole other socio/political issue. Curious because we do and in part it was because of the

> whole pollution, killing of the planet issue plus all the pesticides and preservatives are killing the human

> population also.

 

A lot of us do what we can to get organic food (although sometimes circumstances such as cost make it not always possible).

 

I think that what it really comes down to is that the vast majority of vegans are people who have made a lifestyle choice because they are concerned about how the way they live affects those around them - and the people who think about and act on one particular ethical issue, are very likely to do the same with other ethical issues, so I think it is likely that a lot of vegans will also be politically active, will boycott certain unethical companies, will do their best to be environmentally friendly, etc.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda

 

> A neutered chicken is a capon and yes it is done and isn't a problem although the average vet usually has no

> training in this.

 

Hmmm - can't help thinking if someone neutered me, I'd consider it a problem! I wonder why chickens would not consider it to be one?

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Peter wrote:

 

> Hi Lynda

>

> > A neutered chicken is a capon and yes it is done and isn't a problem

although the average vet usually has no

> > training in this.

>

> Hmmm - can't help thinking if someone neutered me, I'd consider it a problem!

I wonder why chickens would not consider it to be one?

 

Well, I don't think my dogs and cats consider it a problem. Considering

the benefits for the individual animal (greatly reduced chances of

reproductive cancers later in life, freedom from disstessing estrus cycles

with no opportunity to mate, and, in the case of male cats, my willingness

to have them live inside my house because if they're neutered early, they

don't spray), and for the species (less uncontrolled breeding means fewer

unwanted puppies and kittens), I consider it part of responsible

guardianship to get them spayed or neutered.

 

I don't know what the health implications are for roosters, or how safe it

is to spay hens. With cats and dogs, human tampering with their breeding

has resulted in kind of hormone overdrive, so that they're fertile and

able to breed a lot more often than their wild ancestors were. That,

combined with longer life expectancies (since we feed them so they don't

starve when they get too old and slow to hunt, we take them to the vet

when they get sick or injured, etc.), is why un-altered animals have the

high risk of reproductive cancers when they get older. *If* I ever had any

chickens, I would have to do some research and learn a lot about how to

care for them. One of the things I'd want to know is whether neutering is

recommended for their optimal health and longevity.

 

Jim Sinclair jisincla

[Guest guest]

Quite! It's strange that in most ways we consider what we do to

animals in an effort to not interfere but reckon it is okay to render

them impotent/infertile!

 

Jo

 

 

, " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote:

> Hi Lynda

>

> > A neutered chicken is a capon and yes it is done and isn't a

problem although the average vet usually has no

> > training in this.

>

> Hmmm - can't help thinking if someone neutered me, I'd consider it

a problem! I wonder why chickens would not consider it to be one?

>

> BB

> Peter

[Guest guest]

It's still humans imposing their will on their animals though, isn't

it?

 

Jo

 

, Jim Sinclair <jisincla@m...> wrote:

> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Peter wrote:

>

> > Hi Lynda

> >

> > > A neutered chicken is a capon and yes it is done and isn't a

problem although the average vet usually has no

> > > training in this.

> >

> > Hmmm - can't help thinking if someone neutered me, I'd consider

it a problem! I wonder why chickens would not consider it to be one?

>

> Well, I don't think my dogs and cats consider it a problem.

Considering

> the benefits for the individual animal (greatly reduced chances of

> reproductive cancers later in life, freedom from disstessing estrus

cycles

> with no opportunity to mate, and, in the case of male cats, my

willingness

> to have them live inside my house because if they're neutered

early, they

> don't spray), and for the species (less uncontrolled breeding means

fewer

> unwanted puppies and kittens), I consider it part of responsible

> guardianship to get them spayed or neutered.

>

> I don't know what the health implications are for roosters, or how

safe it

> is to spay hens. With cats and dogs, human tampering with their

breeding

> has resulted in kind of hormone overdrive, so that they're fertile

and

> able to breed a lot more often than their wild ancestors were. That,

> combined with longer life expectancies (since we feed them so they

don't

> starve when they get too old and slow to hunt, we take them to the

vet

> when they get sick or injured, etc.), is why un-altered animals

have the

> high risk of reproductive cancers when they get older. *If* I ever

had any

> chickens, I would have to do some research and learn a lot about

how to

> care for them. One of the things I'd want to know is whether

neutering is

> recommended for their optimal health and longevity.

>

> Jim Sinclair jisincla@m...

[Guest guest]

Simple, no pets. That is the ultimate of humans imposing their unnatural role on animals. Fish in itty bitty tanks, lizards in cages, hamsters stuck on wheels.

 

However, now that humans have spent centuries domesticating these animals, I would like a serious answer as to what should be done. The only real answer is to neuter everything that is a pet and not produce any others and let nature take her coarse with those that are still untouched by humans.

 

The same goes for cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, pigs, etc.

 

However, how many folks have pets? And how many of those folks don't think they are in the same rhelm as factory farms?

 

Lynda

 

-

heartwerk

Monday, March 07, 2005 12:01 AM

Re: Intro and Question

It's still humans imposing their will on their animals though, isn't it?Jo , Jim Sinclair <jisincla@m...> wrote:> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Peter wrote:> > > Hi Lynda> >> > > A neutered chicken is a capon and yes it is done and isn't a problem although the average vet usually has no> > > training in this.> >> > Hmmm - can't help thinking if someone neutered me, I'd consider it a problem! I wonder why chickens would not consider it to be one?> > Well, I don't think my dogs and cats consider it a problem. Considering> the benefits for the individual animal (greatly reduced chances of> reproductive cancers later in life, freedom from disstessing estrus cycles> with no opportunity to mate, and, in the case of male cats, my willingness> to have them live inside my house because if they're neutered early, they> don't spray), and for the species (less uncontrolled breeding means fewer> unwanted puppies and kittens), I consider it part of responsible> guardianship to get them spayed or neutered.> > I don't know what the health implications are for roosters, or how safe it> is to spay hens. With cats and dogs, human tampering with their breeding> has resulted in kind of hormone overdrive, so that they're fertile and> able to breed a lot more often than their wild ancestors were. That,> combined with longer life expectancies (since we feed them so they don't> starve when they get too old and slow to hunt, we take them to the vet> when they get sick or injured, etc.), is why un-altered animals have the> high risk of reproductive cancers when they get older. *If* I ever had any> chickens, I would have to do some research and learn a lot about how to> care for them. One of the things I'd want to know is whether neutering is> recommended for their optimal health and longevity.> > Jim Sinclair jisincla@m...To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Jim

 

> Well, I don't think my dogs and cats consider it a problem. Considering

> the benefits for the individual animal

 

If it is so beneficial, I can't help wondering why more humans do not choose

to be neutered?

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda

 

I agree with you about the pets issue. However, most "pets" are the result of an industry which breeds animals specifically for selling as pets. Neutering is a result of that industry, since it already produces way too many animals. Shut down the industry, and within a few years nature would find a proper balance of species, as it has done so well for millions of years.

 

BB

Peter

 

 

-

Lynda

Monday, March 07, 2005 4:53 PM

Re: Re: Intro and Question

 

Simple, no pets. That is the ultimate of humans imposing their unnatural role on animals. Fish in itty bitty tanks, lizards in cages, hamsters stuck on wheels.

 

However, now that humans have spent centuries domesticating these animals, I would like a serious answer as to what should be done. The only real answer is to neuter everything that is a pet and not produce any others and let nature take her coarse with those that are still untouched by humans.

 

The same goes for cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, pigs, etc.

 

However, how many folks have pets? And how many of those folks don't think they are in the same rhelm as factory farms?

 

Lynda

 

-

heartwerk

Monday, March 07, 2005 12:01 AM

Re: Intro and Question

It's still humans imposing their will on their animals though, isn't it?Jo , Jim Sinclair <jisincla@m...> wrote:> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Peter wrote:> > > Hi Lynda> >> > > A neutered chicken is a capon and yes it is done and isn't a problem although the average vet usually has no> > > training in this.> >> > Hmmm - can't help thinking if someone neutered me, I'd consider it a problem! I wonder why chickens would not consider it to be one?> > Well, I don't think my dogs and cats consider it a problem. Considering> the benefits for the individual animal (greatly reduced chances of> reproductive cancers later in life, freedom from disstessing estrus cycles> with no opportunity to mate, and, in the case of male cats, my willingness> to have them live inside my house because if they're neutered early, they> don't spray), and for the species (less uncontrolled breeding means fewer> unwanted puppies and kittens), I consider it part of responsible> guardianship to get them spayed or neutered.> > I don't know what the health implications are for roosters, or how safe it> is to spay hens. With cats and dogs, human tampering with their breeding> has resulted in kind of hormone overdrive, so that they're fertile and> able to breed a lot more often than their wild ancestors were. That,> combined with longer life expectancies (since we feed them so they don't> starve when they get too old and slow to hunt, we take them to the vet> when they get sick or injured, etc.), is why un-altered animals have the> high risk of reproductive cancers when they get older. *If* I ever had any> chickens, I would have to do some research and learn a lot about how to> care for them. One of the things I'd want to know is whether neutering is> recommended for their optimal health and longevity.> > Jim Sinclair jisincla@m...To send an email to - To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

I agree that ideally there would be no such things as "pets"; animals would have self determination over their own lives. But they way things are in the real world makes this impossible. Which is more humane for the cats I share my home with - to turn them out in the cold to forage for food on their own, to brave the busy streets where they could easily get run over by a car, have to fight with other cats and wild animals, or, goddess forbid, be harmed by some cruel person who takes out their pain on defenseless animals? To have no health care and be subject to injury or disease? Or is it better to provide healthy food on a daily basis, a warm, safe place to sleep at night, vaccinations and prompt care for any illness or injury, and tons of affection?

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

Lynda

 

3/7/2005 11:37:47 AM

Re: Re: Intro and Question

 

Simple, no pets. That is the ultimate of humans imposing their unnatural role on animals. Fish in itty bitty tanks, lizards in cages, hamsters stuck on wheels.

 

However, now that humans have spent centuries domesticating these animals, I would like a serious answer as to what should be done. The only real answer is to neuter everything that is a pet and not produce any others and let nature take her coarse with those that are still untouched by humans.

 

The same goes for cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, pigs, etc.

 

However, how many folks have pets? And how many of those folks don't think they are in the same rhelm as factory farms?

 

Lynda

 

-

heartwerk

Monday, March 07, 2005 12:01 AM

Re: Intro and Question

It's still humans imposing their will on their animals though, isn't it?Jo , Jim Sinclair <jisincla@m...> wrote:> On Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Peter wrote:> > > Hi Lynda> >> > > A neutered chicken is a capon and yes it is done and isn't a problem although the average vet usually has no> > > training in this.> >> > Hmmm - can't help thinking if someone neutered me, I'd consider it a problem! I wonder why chickens would not consider it to be one?> > Well, I don't think my dogs and cats consider it a problem. Considering> the benefits for the individual animal (greatly reduced chances of> reproductive cancers later in life, freedom from disstessing estrus cycles> with no opportunity to mate, and, in the case of male cats, my willingness> to have them live inside my house because if they're neutered early, they> don't spray), and for the species (less uncontrolled breeding means fewer> unwanted puppies and kittens), I consider it part of responsible> guardianship to get them spayed or neutered.> > I don't know what the health implications are for roosters, or how safe it> is to spay hens. With cats and dogs, human tampering with their breeding> has resulted in kind of hormone overdrive, so that they're fertile and> able to breed a lot more often than their wild ancestors were. That,> combined with longer life expectancies (since we feed them so they don't> starve when they get too old and slow to hunt, we take them to the vet> when they get sick or injured, etc.), is why un-altered animals have the> high risk of reproductive cancers when they get older. *If* I ever had any> chickens, I would have to do some research and learn a lot about how to> care for them. One of the things I'd want to know is whether neutering is> recommended for their optimal health and longevity.> > Jim Sinclair jisincla@m...To send an email to - To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Vasectomies/hysterectomies are just way more expensive then spaying/neutering your pet. I wish more people would do it!

If it is so beneficial, I can't help wondering why more humans do not chooseto be neutered?BBPeterTo send an email to -

Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web

[Guest guest]

Which is why one should neuter if one is going to have pets. We do rescues and have spent thousands on these "throw away" animals. We make sure there are no additional puppies or kittens coming into a world where thousands are subjected to a needle or a death chamber or tossed on the side of a road every single day.

 

Lynda

 

-

Anna Blaine

Monday, March 07, 2005 11:08 AM

Re: Re: Intro and Question

 

I agree that ideally there would be no such things as "pets"; animals would have self determination over their own lives. But they way things are in the real world makes this impossible. Which is more humane for the cats I share my home with - to turn them out in the cold to forage for food on their own, to brave the busy streets where they could easily get run over by a car, have to fight with other cats and wild animals, or, goddess forbid, be harmed by some cruel person who takes out their pain on defenseless animals? To have no health care and be subject to injury or disease? Or is it better to provide healthy food on a daily basis, a warm, safe place to sleep at night, vaccinations and prompt care for any illness or injury, and tons of affection?

 

Love,

Anna

[Guest guest]

<g> Ego and religion are the problems with humans, not cost as clinics do the vasectomy for very little money if you don't have insurance.

 

Lynda

 

-

Valerie Fjallstrom

Monday, March 07, 2005 12:00 PM

Re: Intro and Question

 

 

Vasectomies/hysterectomies are just way more expensive then spaying/neutering your pet. I wish more people would do it!

If it is so beneficial, I can't help wondering why more humans do not chooseto be neutered?BBPeterTo send an email to -

 

 

Celebrate 's 10th Birthday! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web To send an email to -