Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 Bob First, what do you then give to patients on antidepressants? second why than many patients on them do not show adverse reactions, many say they cant even tell they are taking anything except they feel better? Alon - pemachophel2001 Monday, December 31, 2001 9:00 AM Re: Benadryl I don't know if Benadryl has any long-term side effects. However, as a Chinese medical practitioner, protection of my patient's righteous qi is a fundamental concern.I only likened Benadryl to opium in order to explain how I think Benadryl causes sedation. I was not implying that the deleterious effects of these two meds is equivalent. Obviously, there is some difference in degree, if not necessarily in kind.About antidepressants, yes, I do think that many (if not all antidepressants) achieve their effect by upbearing yang and out-thrusting depression. (Here I recommend caution in that I am using the word depression in two separate ways: first as the name of a Western psychiatric disorder and secondly as a technical term within CM.)Other strongly moving and scattering substances which cause unconsciuousness by deconstructing the spirit qi include alcohol.In my opinion, many Western meds achieve their effects by moving, scattering, dispersing, and draining (as CM technical terms) and, thus, their potential for adverse reactions. Even if all we do is categorize a medicinal as being draining (xie) instead of supplementing (bu), we can understand its potential for adverse reactions. In CM, draining is a species of attacking method (gong fa) as opposed to a supporting method (fu fa). Attacking methods attack and drain evil qi. Supporting methods support and supplement the righteous qi. What I'm getting at here is that, even if we got no farther than determining Benadryl was essentially a draining and attacking medicinal, we would then be able to determine who would be most likely to experience adverse reactions and what to do in terms of the prescriotion of Chinese meds to ameliorate those adverse reactions.Bob , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Similarly, although I might be willing to use > Benadryl to get to sleep on a single evening racked by acute insomnia, > I would not suggest it as a way to treat chronic insomnia. Thus, we do > not tend to use exterior-resolving meds for the treatment of insomnia.> >>>>Bob do we know that Benadryl has any severe long term bad effects? We know that opium does but does but does that mean Benadryl does? I find the concept of scattering (i.e., deconstructing) the spirit Qi intriguing as a cause of sedation. What is your take then on sedating anti-depressants> Alon> > - > pemachophel2001 > > Friday, December 28, 2001 11:42 AM> Re: Benadryl> > > > > No, I can think of no Chinese medical medicinal used for the treatment > of insomnia which is an exterior-resolver per se. That's because, in > Chinese medicine, we typically try not to damage the righteous qi to > force an effect. Rather, we search for the underlying disease > mechanism and then apply just the right counterbalancing treatment. > > This is exactly where Western medicine tends to go wrong. It forces > results by any means through its sheer potency. If opiates and > Benadryl work by scattering (i.e., deconstructing) the spirit qi, this > means that they are an inferior class of meds. In the Shen Nong Ben > Cao, inferior meds are used for the remedial treatment of > typically acute disease. However, they have a tendency to produce > adverse reactions. Therefore, they should be used with caution and > only as long as actually needed. Once that need is met, then they > should be imediately discontinued. In other words, a less wise > approach to praxis does not necessarily negate a medicinal's > description.> > Let me give you a real-life example. I once saw a patient who was > severely depressed. As we now know, there is no depression without > anxiety. A previous Chinese doctor from China had treated this teenage > female's depression with a Ma Huang decoction. That resulted in > lifting her depression, but it also caused amenorrhea and night sweats > due to damaging the young woman's yin-blood. She had a shao yin bodily > constitution, and, because she was a teenager, her kidneys were not > yet securely exuberant and gesundt. The doctor got an immediate > effect, but neither you nor I would probably call this high quality > Chinese medicine. Similarly, although I might be willing to use > Benadryl to get to sleep on a single evening racked by acute insomnia, > I would not suggest it as a way to treat chronic insomnia. Thus, we do > not tend to use exterior-resolving meds for the treatment of insomnia.> > As for the Chinese description of opiates being sour in flavor and, > therefore, astringing, I believe this is an incorrect assumption due > to being influenced by traditional Chinese descriptions of Ying Su Ke. > To me, the part of the Chinese description that I believe is valuable > is that opiates cause sleep and sedation by scattering the qi. > Securing and astringing is diametrically opposed, at least in my mind, > to scattering, dispersing, and out-thrusting. Securing medicinals, > such as Wu Wei Zi, tend to construct the spirit qi, thus quieting it, > not scattering it and causing lack of consciousness because of > deconstruction of the spirit brilliance. These are two diamertically > opposite methods of inducing reduced sensitivity and sleep. In other > words, spirit-quieting is not the same as causing sedation due to > deconstruction of the spirit qi. > > Bob> > , "1" <@i...> wrote:> > , "pemachophel2001" <> > pemachophel2001> wrote:> > > > > > > > -- I believe published an article on the CM description of opiates > in > > > the Blue Poppy On-line Journal. If not, then the article is posted > > > under the Free Articles section at > www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com. > > > This is not my description. What I published is a translation of a > > > recent Chinese journal article. The article simply lumped all > opiates > > > together as having basically the same CM description (opium, > heroin, > > > morphine).> > > > in addition to being warm and blood moving, they are also listed in > > this article as being sour and having astringent properties. > Nowhere > > are they described as being specifically exterior releasing, though > > they are said to scatter qi and lift depression, two functions often > > seen in exterior relievers. However, they are not described as > > treating pain by exterior effects, but rather internal qi and blood > > moving effects. In addition, benadryl does not treat pain, it > merely > > sedates. It still is not convincing to me that exterior releasing > > accounts for benadryl's sedative properties. Is there any other > > medicinal that relieves insomnia by exterior resolving? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? > > > > since benadryl addresses wind tremors, not aching pain due to > > obstruction in Parkinsons, I do not see how exterior releasing could > be > > correct here. In fact, exterior releasing is usually > contraindicated > > in internal wind. Is there any other medicinal that relieves tremors > by > > exterior resolving? This med appears to extinguish wind.> > > > > > > > > > -- strong astringency definitely does not account for all > the > > > intended therapeutic effects nor all the adverse reactions and > > > combined effects of diphenhydramine. In creating a CM description, > > > you've got to hunt for the single effect that accounts for all the > > > information. > > > > I do not understand this contention,either. Medicinals have > multiple > > actions that account for their effects. For example, mu li exerts > some > > of its effects by astringency and others by heavy settling. Most > herbs > > have 2 or more functions? Why are you saying we need to identify > one > > mechanism. Even your example of opiates is indicated in the article > > you reference as both moving in the vessels and astringent in the > > yangming.> > > > For instance, while we do routinely treat allergic > > > dermatoses with acrid exterior-resolveing meds, we do not > > > routinely treat that kind of condition with securing and > astringing > > > meds.> > > > I grant that as a hole in my hypothesis, but I find yours to be > > unconvincing, as well.> > > > Nor do we treat any of the symptoms of PD with securing and > > > astringing. > > > > but we do use heavy settling and several meds have both heavy > settling > > and astringing effects (mu li, long gu)> > > > Likewise, securing and astringing is not used for the > > > relief of nausea.> > > > however, at least one astringent herb affects nausea via warming the > > stomach (rou dou kou).> > > > I am not comfortable with my description of benadryl, but I am > equally > > uncomfortable with making any clinical decisions on the assumption > that > > it relieves the exterior. > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 However, if and when the spirit is scattered and dispersed, then there is sedation and even unconsciousness. Because these meds catalyze the transformation of essence into yang qi and then scatter and disperse that qi, it takes more and more of these substances to achieve the high (since there is less essence to transform). Ultimately, after their righteous qi and essence have been severely depleted, addicts use simply to try to feel normal as opposed to sick >>>Bob that is not true for antidepressants Alon - pemachophel2001 Monday, December 31, 2001 9:07 AM Re: Benadryl I agree. As far as I can tell, all the drugs that get us "high" are moving, up-bearing, and out-thrusting meds which transform essence into yang qi and then move that yang qi upward and outward. As these meds move the yang qi upward and outward, we feel high, lucid, more energetic, more sensitive and alive (all functions of the spirit brilliance). However, if and when the spirit is scattered and dispersed, then there is sedation and even unconsciousness. Because these meds catalyze the transformation of essence into yang qi and then scatter and disperse that qi, it takes more and more of these substances to achieve the high (since there is less essence to transform). Ultimately, after their righteous qi and essence have been severely depleted, addicts use simply to try to feel normal as opposed to sick.Bob, "1" <@i...> wrote:> , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> > What is your take then on sedating anti-depressants> > Alon> > > I bet its similar, because antidepressants probably move and lift qi, > which would result in sedation due to overdispersal. I bet that is why > marijuana is initially stimulating and has been used to treat > depression by the eclectics, but also induces sleep.> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 According to Dr. Lake, most of the adverse reactions of Western psychotropic drugs are dose-related.>>>>that's true and I often find that using herbs allows you to lower dose alon - pemachophel2001 Monday, December 31, 2001 9:11 AM Re: Benadryl As a Chinese doctor, I would say that those patients who do well on yang-upbearing and depression-out-thrusting, scattering, and dispersing meds are the ones with wholy replete disease mechanisms and a "habitual bodily exuberance." Those who are either qi or yin vacuous tend to have, in my own clinical experience, the most and most severe adverse reactions.Interesting, as readers will see in James Lake's and my book, Chinese Medical Psychiatry, when Chinese meds are prescribed based on the patient's personal pattern along with antidepressants and other such pyschotropic Western meds, patients are able to get a better therapeutic effects with less side effects. According to Dr. Lake, most of the adverse reactions of Western psychotropic drugs are dose-related.Bob, "1" <@i...> wrote:> , "Ruth Goldenberg" <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote:> > > >>>You know Todd I still have trouble with that concept. Why then so many people that are severely depressed do so well on some of these drugs and can stay on them for life with very little side effects? Some do so well that they would tell you they have never been so phisicaly healthy.This would never be true for opeum of example> > Alon> > actually, plenty of people do well on natural opium, as well. It was > used in european medicine for depression and awas considered milder > than any drugs (see Herbal Medicine by Weiss).> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 I think, here, Alon, the typo may not make too much sense . The line should read due to rabies, I think? Not " do to rabbis! " On Monday, December 31, 2001, at 10:16 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote: > > > Bob > What do we by tetany here? is one question and then the second in my > mind is can this be true. Certainly if it is do to rabbis for example, > I know it will not. > Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 Alon, A) Depends entirely on their pattern discrimination. If they are not experiencing adverse effects, then nothing necessarily. B) Depends entirely on their pattern discrimination. That's the whole point of what I have spent several hours on this subject trying to get across. Those patients that do experience side effects experience those side effects predictably depending on their patterns. Bob , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Bob > First, what do you then give to patients on antidepressants? second why than many patients on them do not show adverse reactions, many say they cant even tell they are taking anything except they feel better? > Alon > - > pemachophel2001 > > Monday, December 31, 2001 9:00 AM > Re: Benadryl > > > > > I don't know if Benadryl has any long-term side effects. However, as a > Chinese medical practitioner, protection of my patient's righteous qi > is a fundamental concern. > > I only likened Benadryl to opium in order to explain how I think > Benadryl causes sedation. I was not implying that the > deleterious effects of these two meds is equivalent. Obviously, there > is some difference in degree, if not necessarily in kind. > > About antidepressants, yes, I do think that many (if not all > antidepressants) achieve their effect by upbearing yang and > out-thrusting depression. (Here I recommend caution in that I am using > the word depression in two separate ways: first as the name of a > Western psychiatric disorder and secondly as a technical term within > CM.) > > Other strongly moving and scattering substances which cause > unconsciuousness by deconstructing the spirit qi include alcohol. > > In my opinion, many Western meds achieve their effects by moving, > scattering, dispersing, and draining (as CM technical terms) and, > thus, their potential for adverse reactions. Even if all we do is > categorize a medicinal as being draining (xie) instead of > supplementing (bu), we can understand its potential for adverse > reactions. In CM, draining is a species of attacking method (gong fa) > as opposed to a supporting method (fu fa). Attacking methods attack > and drain evil qi. Supporting methods support and supplement the > righteous qi. > > What I'm getting at here is that, even if we got no farther than > determining Benadryl was essentially a draining and attacking > medicinal, we would then be able to determine who would be most likely > to experience adverse reactions and what to do in terms of the > prescriotion of Chinese meds to ameliorate those adverse reactions. > > Bob > > > > , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > Similarly, although I might be willing to use > > Benadryl to get to sleep on a single evening racked by acute > insomnia, > > I would not suggest it as a way to treat chronic insomnia. Thus, we > do > > not tend to use exterior-resolving meds for the treatment of > insomnia. > > >>>>Bob do we know that Benadryl has any severe long term bad > effects? We know that opium does but does but does that mean Benadryl > does? I find the concept of scattering (i.e., deconstructing) the > spirit Qi intriguing as a cause of sedation. What is your take then on > sedating anti-depressants > > Alon > > > > - > > pemachophel2001 > > > > Friday, December 28, 2001 11:42 AM > > Re: Benadryl > > > > > > > > > > No, I can think of no Chinese medical medicinal used for the > treatment > > of insomnia which is an exterior-resolver per se. That's because, > in > > Chinese medicine, we typically try not to damage the righteous qi > to > > force an effect. Rather, we search for the underlying disease > > mechanism and then apply just the right counterbalancing > treatment. > > > > This is exactly where Western medicine tends to go wrong. It > forces > > results by any means through its sheer potency. If opiates and > > Benadryl work by scattering (i.e., deconstructing) the spirit qi, > this > > means that they are an inferior class of meds. In the Shen Nong > Ben > > Cao, inferior meds are used for the remedial treatment of > > typically acute disease. However, they have a tendency to produce > > adverse reactions. Therefore, they should be used with caution and > > only as long as actually needed. Once that need is met, then they > > should be imediately discontinued. In other words, a less wise > > approach to praxis does not necessarily negate a medicinal's > > description. > > > > Let me give you a real-life example. I once saw a patient who was > > severely depressed. As we now know, there is no depression without > > anxiety. A previous Chinese doctor from China had treated this > teenage > > female's depression with a Ma Huang decoction. That resulted in > > lifting her depression, but it also caused amenorrhea and night > sweats > > due to damaging the young woman's yin-blood. She had a shao yin > bodily > > constitution, and, because she was a teenager, her kidneys were > not > > yet securely exuberant and gesundt. The doctor got an immediate > > effect, but neither you nor I would probably call this high > quality > > Chinese medicine. Similarly, although I might be willing to use > > Benadryl to get to sleep on a single evening racked by acute > insomnia, > > I would not suggest it as a way to treat chronic insomnia. Thus, > we do > > not tend to use exterior-resolving meds for the treatment of > insomnia. > > > > As for the Chinese description of opiates being sour in flavor > and, > > therefore, astringing, I believe this is an incorrect assumption > due > > to being influenced by traditional Chinese descriptions of Ying Su > Ke. > > To me, the part of the Chinese description that I believe is > valuable > > is that opiates cause sleep and sedation by scattering the qi. > > Securing and astringing is diametrically opposed, at least in my > mind, > > to scattering, dispersing, and out-thrusting. Securing medicinals, > > such as Wu Wei Zi, tend to construct the spirit qi, thus quieting > it, > > not scattering it and causing lack of consciousness because of > > deconstruction of the spirit brilliance. These are two > diamertically > > opposite methods of inducing reduced sensitivity and sleep. In > other > > words, spirit-quieting is not the same as causing sedation due to > > deconstruction of the spirit qi. > > > > Bob > > > > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > > > , " pemachophel2001 " < > > > pemachophel2001> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > -- I believe published an article on the CM description of > opiates > > in > > > > the Blue Poppy On-line Journal. If not, then the article is > posted > > > > under the Free Articles section at > > www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com. > > > > This is not my description. What I published is a translation > of a > > > > recent Chinese journal article. The article simply lumped all > > opiates > > > > together as having basically the same CM description (opium, > > heroin, > > > > morphine). > > > > > > in addition to being warm and blood moving, they are also listed > in > > > this article as being sour and having astringent properties. > > Nowhere > > > are they described as being specifically exterior releasing, > though > > > they are said to scatter qi and lift depression, two functions > often > > > seen in exterior relievers. However, they are not described as > > > treating pain by exterior effects, but rather internal qi and > blood > > > moving effects. In addition, benadryl does not treat pain, it > > merely > > > sedates. It still is not convincing to me that exterior > releasing > > > accounts for benadryl's sedative properties. Is there any other > > > medicinal that relieves insomnia by exterior resolving? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? > > > > > > since benadryl addresses wind tremors, not aching pain due to > > > obstruction in Parkinsons, I do not see how exterior releasing > could > > be > > > correct here. In fact, exterior releasing is usually > > contraindicated > > > in internal wind. Is there any other medicinal that relieves > tremors > > by > > > exterior resolving? This med appears to extinguish wind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- strong astringency definitely does not account for > all > > the > > > > intended therapeutic effects nor all the adverse reactions and > > > > combined effects of diphenhydramine. In creating a CM > description, > > > > you've got to hunt for the single effect that accounts for all > the > > > > information. > > > > > > I do not understand this contention,either. Medicinals have > > multiple > > > actions that account for their effects. For example, mu li > exerts > > some > > > of its effects by astringency and others by heavy settling. > Most > > herbs > > > have 2 or more functions? Why are you saying we need to > identify > > one > > > mechanism. Even your example of opiates is indicated in the > article > > > you reference as both moving in the vessels and astringent in > the > > > yangming. > > > > > > For instance, while we do routinely treat allergic > > > > dermatoses with acrid exterior-resolveing meds, we do not > > > > routinely treat that kind of condition with securing and > > astringing > > > > meds. > > > > > > I grant that as a hole in my hypothesis, but I find yours to be > > > unconvincing, as well. > > > > > > Nor do we treat any of the symptoms of PD with securing and > > > > astringing. > > > > > > but we do use heavy settling and several meds have both heavy > > settling > > > and astringing effects (mu li, long gu) > > > > > > Likewise, securing and astringing is not used for the > > > > relief of nausea. > > > > > > however, at least one astringent herb affects nausea via warming > the > > > stomach (rou dou kou). > > > > > > I am not comfortable with my description of benadryl, but I am > > equally > > > uncomfortable with making any clinical decisions on the > assumption > > that > > > it relieves the exterior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 Along, Tetany is a Chinese medical concept. Look it up in the Practical Dictionary of . No one is saying these formulas treat all types of tetany. They treat specific patterns of tetany. Further, a medicinal formula should be chosen on the basis of both the disease diagnosis (rabies) and the patient's pattern. I have no idea what patterns are typically associated with rabies or whether any Chinese meds are effective for tetany associated with rabies. Bob , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Ge Gen Tang and > Qiang Huo Sheng Shi Tang. These two formulas suggest that acrid, > windy, exterior-resolving medicinals may be used to treat tetany > conditions associated with wind even though stopping or checking > tetany may not be a listed function of the individual meds in either > of these two formulas. > > Bob > What do we by tetany here? is one question and then the second in my mind is can this be true. Certainly if it is do to rabbis for example, I know it will not. > Alon > - > pemachophel2001 > > Monday, December 31, 2001 8:41 AM > Re: Benadryl > > > > > I think you would agree that one of the potential disease causes and > mechanisms of tetany conditions (jing zheng) is wind in the channels > and network vessels. Just a very quick look at Yeung Him-che's Chinese > Herbs and Formulas Vol. 2 (it happens to be at my elbow as I > write this) lists that as one of the patterns of tetany conditions. > Under that heading, Yeung then suggests two formulas, Ge Gen Tang and > Qiang Huo Sheng Shi Tang. These two formulas suggest that acrid, > windy, exterior-resolving medicinals may be used to treat tetany > conditions associated with wind even though stopping or checking > tetany may not be a listed function of the individual meds in either > of these two formulas. In that case, treating (zhi), coursing (shu), > dispersing (xiao), dispelling (qu), or expelling (qu) wind would be > enough in terms of requisite functions and tx principles. For > instance, within Qiang Huo Sheng Shi Tang and according to B & G, > Qiang Huo and Du Huo treat wind, Fang Feng, Gao Ben, and Chuan Xiong > expel wind, and Man Jing Zi disperses wind. > > Bob > > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > > , " pemachophel2001 " < > > pemachophel2001> wrote: > > > > That's because, in > > > Chinese medicine, we typically try not to damage the righteous qi > to > > > force an effect. > > > > Interesting perspective. So what I should be considering here is > that > > many exterior releasing substance may lead to qi xu, one sx of which > is > > sleepiness. > > > > Fair enough. But what about the tremors? does any exterior relaser > > calm wind? Well, fang feng and ju hua both do, but is that due to > > their exterior releasing or some other property? > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 Alon, So what? I didn't say that. Bob , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > However, if and when the spirit is scattered and > dispersed, then there is sedation and even unconsciousness. Because > these meds catalyze the transformation of essence into yang qi and > then scatter and disperse that qi, it takes more and more of these > substances to achieve the high (since there is less essence to > transform). Ultimately, after their righteous qi and essence > have been severely depleted, addicts use simply to try to feel normal > as opposed to sick > >>>Bob that is not true for antidepressants > Alon > - > pemachophel2001 > > Monday, December 31, 2001 9:07 AM > Re: Benadryl > > > > > I agree. As far as I can tell, all the drugs that get us " high " are > moving, up-bearing, and out-thrusting meds which transform essence > into yang qi and then move that yang qi upward and outward. As these > meds move the yang qi upward and outward, we feel high, lucid, more > energetic, more sensitive and alive (all functions of the spirit > brilliance). However, if and when the spirit is scattered and > dispersed, then there is sedation and even unconsciousness. Because > these meds catalyze the transformation of essence into yang qi and > then scatter and disperse that qi, it takes more and more of these > substances to achieve the high (since there is less essence to > transform). Ultimately, after their righteous qi and essence > have been severely depleted, addicts use simply to try to feel normal > as opposed to sick. > > Bob > > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > > , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > > > What is your take then on sedating anti-depressants > > > Alon > > > > > > I bet its similar, because antidepressants probably move and lift > qi, > > which would result in sedation due to overdispersal. I bet that is > why > > marijuana is initially stimulating and has been used to treat > > depression by the eclectics, but also induces sleep. > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 your write thanks Z'ev alon - Monday, December 31, 2001 11:23 AM Re: Re: Benadryl I think, here, Alon, the typo may not make too much sense . The line should read due to rabies, I think? Not "do to rabbis!"On Monday, December 31, 2001, at 10:16 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote: BobWhat do we by tetany here? is one question and then the second in my mind is can this be true. Certainly if it is do to rabbis for example, I know it will not.Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 B) Depends entirely on their pattern discrimination. That's the whole point of what I have spent several hours on this subject trying to get across. Those patients that do experience side effects experience those side effects predictably depending on their patterns.>>>Agree. The question is we have a proposed, potential, harmful medication what should we do, to prevent. Alon - pemachophel2001 Monday, December 31, 2001 11:36 AM Re: Benadryl Alon,A) Depends entirely on their pattern discrimination. If they are not experiencing adverse effects, then nothing necessarily.B) Depends entirely on their pattern discrimination. That's the whole point of what I have spent several hours on this subject trying to get across. Those patients that do experience side effects experience those side effects predictably depending on their patterns.Bob, "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Bob> First, what do you then give to patients on antidepressants? second why than many patients on them do not show adverse reactions, many say they cant even tell they are taking anything except they feel better?> Alon> - > pemachophel2001 > > Monday, December 31, 2001 9:00 AM> Re: Benadryl> > > > > I don't know if Benadryl has any long-term side effects. However, as a > Chinese medical practitioner, protection of my patient's righteous qi > is a fundamental concern.> > I only likened Benadryl to opium in order to explain how I think > Benadryl causes sedation. I was not implying that the > deleterious effects of these two meds is equivalent. Obviously, there > is some difference in degree, if not necessarily in kind.> > About antidepressants, yes, I do think that many (if not all > antidepressants) achieve their effect by upbearing yang and > out-thrusting depression. (Here I recommend caution in that I am using > the word depression in two separate ways: first as the name of a > Western psychiatric disorder and secondly as a technical term within > CM.)> > Other strongly moving and scattering substances which cause > unconsciuousness by deconstructing the spirit qi include alcohol.> > In my opinion, many Western meds achieve their effects by moving, > scattering, dispersing, and draining (as CM technical terms) and, > thus, their potential for adverse reactions. Even if all we do is > categorize a medicinal as being draining (xie) instead of > supplementing (bu), we can understand its potential for adverse > reactions. In CM, draining is a species of attacking method (gong fa) > as opposed to a supporting method (fu fa). Attacking methods attack > and drain evil qi. Supporting methods support and supplement the > righteous qi. > > What I'm getting at here is that, even if we got no farther than > determining Benadryl was essentially a draining and attacking > medicinal, we would then be able to determine who would be most likely > to experience adverse reactions and what to do in terms of the > prescriotion of Chinese meds to ameliorate those adverse reactions.> > Bob > > > > , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote:> > Similarly, although I might be willing to use > > Benadryl to get to sleep on a single evening racked by acute > insomnia, > > I would not suggest it as a way to treat chronic insomnia. Thus, we > do > > not tend to use exterior-resolving meds for the treatment of > insomnia.> > >>>>Bob do we know that Benadryl has any severe long term bad > effects? We know that opium does but does but does that mean Benadryl > does? I find the concept of scattering (i.e., deconstructing) the > spirit Qi intriguing as a cause of sedation. What is your take then on > sedating anti-depressants> > Alon> > > > - > > pemachophel2001 > > > > Friday, December 28, 2001 11:42 AM> > Re: Benadryl> > > > > > > > > > No, I can think of no Chinese medical medicinal used for the > treatment > > of insomnia which is an exterior-resolver per se. That's because, > in > > Chinese medicine, we typically try not to damage the righteous qi > to > > force an effect. Rather, we search for the underlying disease > > mechanism and then apply just the right counterbalancing > treatment. > > > > This is exactly where Western medicine tends to go wrong. It > forces > > results by any means through its sheer potency. If opiates and > > Benadryl work by scattering (i.e., deconstructing) the spirit qi, > this > > means that they are an inferior class of meds. In the Shen Nong > Ben > > Cao, inferior meds are used for the remedial treatment of > > typically acute disease. However, they have a tendency to produce > > adverse reactions. Therefore, they should be used with caution and > > only as long as actually needed. Once that need is met, then they > > should be imediately discontinued. In other words, a less wise > > approach to praxis does not necessarily negate a medicinal's > > description.> > > > Let me give you a real-life example. I once saw a patient who was > > severely depressed. As we now know, there is no depression without > > anxiety. A previous Chinese doctor from China had treated this > teenage > > female's depression with a Ma Huang decoction. That resulted in > > lifting her depression, but it also caused amenorrhea and night > sweats > > due to damaging the young woman's yin-blood. She had a shao yin > bodily > > constitution, and, because she was a teenager, her kidneys were > not > > yet securely exuberant and gesundt. The doctor got an immediate > > effect, but neither you nor I would probably call this high > quality > > Chinese medicine. Similarly, although I might be willing to use > > Benadryl to get to sleep on a single evening racked by acute > insomnia, > > I would not suggest it as a way to treat chronic insomnia. Thus, > we do > > not tend to use exterior-resolving meds for the treatment of > insomnia.> > > > As for the Chinese description of opiates being sour in flavor > and, > > therefore, astringing, I believe this is an incorrect assumption > due > > to being influenced by traditional Chinese descriptions of Ying Su > Ke. > > To me, the part of the Chinese description that I believe is > valuable > > is that opiates cause sleep and sedation by scattering the qi. > > Securing and astringing is diametrically opposed, at least in my > mind, > > to scattering, dispersing, and out-thrusting. Securing medicinals, > > such as Wu Wei Zi, tend to construct the spirit qi, thus quieting > it, > > not scattering it and causing lack of consciousness because of > > deconstruction of the spirit brilliance. These are two > diamertically > > opposite methods of inducing reduced sensitivity and sleep. In > other > > words, spirit-quieting is not the same as causing sedation due to > > deconstruction of the spirit qi. > > > > Bob> > > > , "1" <@i...> wrote:> > > , "pemachophel2001" <> > > pemachophel2001> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > -- I believe published an article on the CM description of > opiates > > in > > > > the Blue Poppy On-line Journal. If not, then the article is > posted > > > > under the Free Articles section at > > www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com. > > > > This is not my description. What I published is a translation > of a > > > > recent Chinese journal article. The article simply lumped all > > opiates > > > > together as having basically the same CM description (opium, > > heroin, > > > > morphine).> > > > > > in addition to being warm and blood moving, they are also listed > in > > > this article as being sour and having astringent properties. > > Nowhere > > > are they described as being specifically exterior releasing, > though > > > they are said to scatter qi and lift depression, two functions > often > > > seen in exterior relievers. However, they are not described as > > > treating pain by exterior effects, but rather internal qi and > blood > > > moving effects. In addition, benadryl does not treat pain, it > > merely > > > sedates. It still is not convincing to me that exterior > releasing > > > accounts for benadryl's sedative properties. Is there any other > > > medicinal that relieves insomnia by exterior resolving? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? > > > > > > since benadryl addresses wind tremors, not aching pain due to > > > obstruction in Parkinsons, I do not see how exterior releasing > could > > be > > > correct here. In fact, exterior releasing is usually > > contraindicated > > > in internal wind. Is there any other medicinal that relieves > tremors > > by > > > exterior resolving? This med appears to extinguish wind.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- strong astringency definitely does not account for > all > > the > > > > intended therapeutic effects nor all the adverse reactions and > > > > combined effects of diphenhydramine. In creating a CM > description, > > > > you've got to hunt for the single effect that accounts for all > the > > > > information. > > > > > > I do not understand this contention,either. Medicinals have > > multiple > > > actions that account for their effects. For example, mu li > exerts > > some > > > of its effects by astringency and others by heavy settling. > Most > > herbs > > > have 2 or more functions? Why are you saying we need to > identify > > one > > > mechanism. Even your example of opiates is indicated in the > article > > > you reference as both moving in the vessels and astringent in > the > > > yangming.> > > > > > For instance, while we do routinely treat allergic > > > > dermatoses with acrid exterior-resolveing meds, we do not > > > > routinely treat that kind of condition with securing and > > astringing > > > > meds.> > > > > > I grant that as a hole in my hypothesis, but I find yours to be > > > unconvincing, as well.> > > > > > Nor do we treat any of the symptoms of PD with securing and > > > > astringing. > > > > > > but we do use heavy settling and several meds have both heavy > > settling > > > and astringing effects (mu li, long gu)> > > > > > Likewise, securing and astringing is not used for the > > > > relief of nausea.> > > > > > however, at least one astringent herb affects nausea via warming > the > > > stomach (rou dou kou).> > > > > > I am not comfortable with my description of benadryl, but I am > > equally > > > uncomfortable with making any clinical decisions on the > assumption > > that > > > it relieves the exterior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 Tetany >>>I have seen this used in several ways within CM Alon - pemachophel2001 Monday, December 31, 2001 11:51 AM Re: Benadryl Along,Tetany is a Chinese medical concept. Look it up in the Practical Dictionary of .No one is saying these formulas treat all types of tetany. They treat specific patterns of tetany. Further, a medicinal formula should be chosen on the basis of both the disease diagnosis (rabies) and the patient's pattern. I have no idea what patterns are typically associated with rabies or whether any Chinese meds are effective for tetany associated with rabies.Bob, "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Ge Gen Tang and > Qiang Huo Sheng Shi Tang. These two formulas suggest that acrid, > windy, exterior-resolving medicinals may be used to treat tetany > conditions associated with wind even though stopping or checking > tetany may not be a listed function of the individual meds in either > of these two formulas.> > Bob> What do we by tetany here? is one question and then the second in my mind is can this be true. Certainly if it is do to rabbis for example, I know it will not. > Alon> - > pemachophel2001 > > Monday, December 31, 2001 8:41 AM> Re: Benadryl> > > > > I think you would agree that one of the potential disease causes and > mechanisms of tetany conditions (jing zheng) is wind in the channels > and network vessels. Just a very quick look at Yeung Him-che's Chinese > Herbs and Formulas Vol. 2 (it happens to be at my elbow as I > write this) lists that as one of the patterns of tetany conditions. > Under that heading, Yeung then suggests two formulas, Ge Gen Tang and > Qiang Huo Sheng Shi Tang. These two formulas suggest that acrid, > windy, exterior-resolving medicinals may be used to treat tetany > conditions associated with wind even though stopping or checking > tetany may not be a listed function of the individual meds in either > of these two formulas. In that case, treating (zhi), coursing (shu), > dispersing (xiao), dispelling (qu), or expelling (qu) wind would be > enough in terms of requisite functions and tx principles. For > instance, within Qiang Huo Sheng Shi Tang and according to B & G, > Qiang Huo and Du Huo treat wind, Fang Feng, Gao Ben, and Chuan Xiong > expel wind, and Man Jing Zi disperses wind.> > Bob > > , "1" <@i...> wrote:> > , "pemachophel2001" <> > pemachophel2001> wrote:> > > > That's because, in > > > Chinese medicine, we typically try not to damage the righteous qi > to > > > force an effect. > > > > Interesting perspective. So what I should be considering here is > that > > many exterior releasing substance may lead to qi xu, one sx of which > is > > sleepiness.> > > > Fair enough. But what about the tremors? does any exterior relaser > > calm wind? Well, fang feng and ju hua both do, but is that due to > > their exterior releasing or some other property?> > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 Bob, I thought antidepressant is what we were talking about Sorry Alon - pemachophel2001 Monday, December 31, 2001 11:53 AM Re: Benadryl Alon,So what? I didn't say that.Bob, "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> However, if and when the spirit is scattered and > dispersed, then there is sedation and even unconsciousness. Because > these meds catalyze the transformation of essence into yang qi and > then scatter and disperse that qi, it takes more and more of these > substances to achieve the high (since there is less essence to > transform). Ultimately, after their righteous qi and essence > have been severely depleted, addicts use simply to try to feel normal > as opposed to sick> >>>Bob that is not true for antidepressants> Alon> - > pemachophel2001 > > Monday, December 31, 2001 9:07 AM> Re: Benadryl> > > > > I agree. As far as I can tell, all the drugs that get us "high" are > moving, up-bearing, and out-thrusting meds which transform essence > into yang qi and then move that yang qi upward and outward. As these > meds move the yang qi upward and outward, we feel high, lucid, more > energetic, more sensitive and alive (all functions of the spirit > brilliance). However, if and when the spirit is scattered and > dispersed, then there is sedation and even unconsciousness. Because > these meds catalyze the transformation of essence into yang qi and > then scatter and disperse that qi, it takes more and more of these > substances to achieve the high (since there is less essence to > transform). Ultimately, after their righteous qi and essence > have been severely depleted, addicts use simply to try to feel normal > as opposed to sick.> > Bob> > , "1" <@i...> wrote:> > , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote:> > > > What is your take then on sedating anti-depressants> > > Alon> > > > > > I bet its similar, because antidepressants probably move and lift > qi, > > which would result in sedation due to overdispersal. I bet that is > why > > marijuana is initially stimulating and has been used to treat > > depression by the eclectics, but also induces sleep.> > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 write >>>Woops right Alon - ALON MARCUS Monday, December 31, 2001 2:24 PM Re: Re: Benadryl your write thanks Z'ev alon - Monday, December 31, 2001 11:23 AM Re: Re: Benadryl I think, here, Alon, the typo may not make too much sense . The line should read due to rabies, I think? Not "do to rabbis!"On Monday, December 31, 2001, at 10:16 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote: BobWhat do we by tetany here? is one question and then the second in my mind is can this be true. Certainly if it is do to rabbis for example, I know it will not.AlonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
