Benadryl

[Guest guest]

> >>>>Not true benadryl does not contain all the above. Benadryl cold

or some other types may do

 

Ok. So then what we are seeing is that not all Benadryls are created

equal. Thus my thoughts on thinking of the rx more like a formula

than an individual substance.

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

> Perhaps, but I am not sure it makes much difference practically.

> Formulas still address certain therapeutic principles. So it

doesn't

> really matter whether an herb clears heat and dries damp or a

formula

> does if our goal is to incorporate the med into our logic.

 

True, and in our logic we don't use the same formula under a

particular category for pt with similar symptoms.

 

BTW, I

> suspected what Alon confirmed, that benadryl is a single compound

and

> that what Fernando refers to is another product.

 

Does a patient go to a pharmacy and purchase the single compound?

 

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

Will, did you taste the actual compound itself? Or the OTC drug?

 

Fernando

> I did - it definitely enters the Leg Tai Yang - Will

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

 

> Is benadryl an astringent? that would cause it to stop sinus

leakage

> and also inhibit urination. several astringents are sedatives, too

> (lian zi, suan zao ren, wu wei zi). Astringing lung qi could

address

> SOB and cough.

 

 

>

 

Help me understand something. Three patients, one complaints that he

feels the bladder is full but lacks the strength to drain the

bladder. The other says that his bladder is full, has the strength

to push the urine out but it only comes out in dribbles. The third,

just does not feel like urinating that often.

 

Of the above three, which would you say has been affected by the

astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) effects of

benadryl?

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

Ok. So then I'm misunderstanding the exercise. I thought the idea was

to classify the OTC prescription medication. Thanks.

 

Fernando

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> In a message dated 12/23/01 7:40:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> fbernall@a... writes:

>

>

> > Will, did you taste the actual compound itself? Or the OTC drug?

> >

>

> I tasted the compound itself - diphenhydramine hydrochloride

>

> will

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:>

Oh boy! shows how much I know! fernando

 

> It is OTC....Will

[Guest guest]

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

 

>

> Does a patient go to a pharmacy and purchase the single compound?

>

>

> Fernando

 

the combination product you referred to is actually called benadryl

allergy decongestant. Benadryl is available as a single med under that

name OTC in american pharmacies.

 

[Guest guest]

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

 

>

> Of the above three, which would you say has been affected by the

> astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) effects of

> benadryl?

>

> Fernando

 

I think these all could be the results of over astringency

[Guest guest]

I actually think it is relevant to look at the side effect profile of benadryl

and other drugs. while side effects do not occur in all users, they

suggest what happens to a user who is unsuited for the med. this

reveals something about the med's qualities, because side effects are directly

related to whether a med is warm, cool, ascending, descending, etc.

the side effects of benadryl include sx it also treats. Could this

be because when benadryl is used by those whose sx are strongly excess

or exterior, they get sx of stagnation and heat, like itching, rash, headache,

constipation, dryness, thick, viscous phlegm, restlessness, nervousness,

irritability, blurred vision, tinnitus.

-- ,

 

 

FAX:

 

[Guest guest]

It occurred to me that at least one heavy settling agent is good for sleep,

tremors, stomach problems and astringes discharges -- mu li.

Is benadryl a heavy settler astringent? mu li is not used for skin

or sinus, per se, though. dai zhe shi is used for vomiting and also

cools blood. zhi shi ying is used for cough and excessive secretions.

I wonder if benadryl is molecularly "heavy"?

-- ,

 

 

FAX:

 

[Guest guest]

again, all sx that are usually treated by descending the qi. this raises the question if benadryl's effects on skin and allergies is actually not ascending and dispersing at all, but rather descending and sinking. thus it would alleviate these sx by driving the manifestations downward and inward. This would be an incorrect treatment principle to apply for an exterior attack. but perhaps it would be OK when the sx are caused by purely internal causes. If this is the case, it seems that benadryl is neither ascending nor scattering and thus its affects on urination may only be due to its drying nature

>>>All this reinforces my point that it is all speculative

Alon

 

-

1

Saturday, December 22, 2001 11:42 AM

Re: Benadryl

, "fbernall" <fbernall@a...> wrote:> > A search on DIPHENHYDRAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE resulted with this > information:> > *USES:> This compound is used as an antihistamine and for its > anticholinergic (drying) and sedative effects.sedative herbs are either heart nourishing or heavy settling. I don't see this one as either. It is also used for > allergic conjunctivitis due to foods,upper body sx againfor mild, uncomplicated allergic > skin manifestations of urticaria and angioedema, for amelioration of > allergic reactions to blood or plasma,skin or lung sx> for active and prophylactic treatment of motion sickness and for > parkinsonism. (MAYBE LIKE FENG FENG TYPE OF ACTION? COULD THERE BE > SOME LIVER CHANNEL AFFINITY HERE?)interesting. gou teng also extinguishes internal wind and releases external wind. fang feng, of course, also relieves intestinal wind. but motion sickness. that suggests a descending affect, as most herbs for nausea descend, in fact, many sedative herbs descend and/or contain (astringe- suan zao ren, wu wei zi).It is used as an antiemetic. This compound is also used in > preparations for the relief of cough and in the prevention and > treatment of radiation sickness, nausea and vomiting.again, all sx that are usually treated by descending the qi. this raises the question if benadryl's effects on skin and allergies is actually not ascending and dispersing at all, but rather descending and sinking. thus it would alleviate these sx by driving the manifestations downward and inward. This would be an incorrect treatment principle to apply for an exterior attack. but perhaps it would be OK when the sx are caused by purely internal causes. If this is the case, it seems that benadryl is neither ascending nor scattering and thus its affects on urination may only be due to its drying nature.> > I also gave a little more thought to your suggestion of adding > fu ling to promote urination. Here's a question: since these herbs are > usually drying, wouldn't the use of a diuretic type herb such as fu > ling accelerate the drying and thus lead to more yin damage?perhaps, especially in light of what I said above. you wouldn't want to supplment yin in most exterior conditions with watery discharge, though. but again, maybe this med is actually best for interior conditions.> > Also, since the contraindication for antihistamines in WM is more for > those with BPH, could it be that antihistamines actually increase > inflamation thus reducing urine flow? Well, here you are introducing a western understanding of BPH, not limiting yourself to its signs and sx as known by the four exams. Thus, the question is then beggged as to what herbs increase inflammation. In fact, I could propose a number of mechanisms, such as qi stagnation, blood stagnation, damp stagnation, phlegm stagnation, yin xu, qi xu, blood xu .... which just all brings us back to the s/s to sort this out.However, the discussion so far has made me realize that this is not so straightforward. I mean maybe rather than scattering or ascending, benadryl has a settling, calming, binding effect that actually leads to stagnation and thus heat, especially in the lower body.Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Wu wei zi, an astringent, is used for skin rashes and has a well documented anti-allergy effect. Benadryl may be closer to wu wei zi than any other medicinal\

>>>Not in pharmcology. Wu wei zi stimulates cholinergic receptord whlie benadryl is an anticholinergic

Alon

 

-

cha

Saturday, December 22, 2001 2:49 PM

re: benadryl

To further the idea that benadryl may be an astringent, I note that at least one astringent, rou dou kou, is used for vomiting. It is said to warm the middle jiao to accomplish this. Wu wei zi, an astringent, is used for skin rashes and has a well documented anti-allergy effect. Benadryl may be closer to wu wei zi than any other medicinal. which begs a question. Is benadryl a tonic? Does it not only relieve sx but also improve health when used in the right bian zheng? If this is right, then benadryl is best used in allergies of internal origin, not caused by external influences, where the underlying cause is one of vacuity. It would thus be combined with tonics. In this scenario, it does not burn yin, however combining with herbs to promote urination would not be unheard of even in yin xu (consider the combination of astringents and damp drainers in liu wei di huang wan). the main concern with its use would be stagnation. I can't find any herbs that both cool blood and also astringe, however benadryl's main action with regard to rashes is to inhibit the itching. If itching is caused by internal wind, then we see a congruity between stopping tremors and itching. Bai ji li comes to mind for these two functions together. However no single herb seems to cover all these indications. but bai ji li and wu wei zi together come close. -- Chinese Herbs FAX: Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

If this is right, then benadryl is best used in allergies of internal origin, not caused by external influences, where the underlying cause is one of vacuity

>>>No its used for rhinities as well. The only thing against it is sedating effects

 

-

cha

Saturday, December 22, 2001 2:49 PM

re: benadryl

To further the idea that benadryl may be an astringent, I note that at least one astringent, rou dou kou, is used for vomiting. It is said to warm the middle jiao to accomplish this. Wu wei zi, an astringent, is used for skin rashes and has a well documented anti-allergy effect. Benadryl may be closer to wu wei zi than any other medicinal. which begs a question. Is benadryl a tonic? Does it not only relieve sx but also improve health when used in the right bian zheng? If this is right, then benadryl is best used in allergies of internal origin, not caused by external influences, where the underlying cause is one of vacuity. It would thus be combined with tonics. In this scenario, it does not burn yin, however combining with herbs to promote urination would not be unheard of even in yin xu (consider the combination of astringents and damp drainers in liu wei di huang wan). the main concern with its use would be stagnation. I can't find any herbs that both cool blood and also astringe, however benadryl's main action with regard to rashes is to inhibit the itching. If itching is caused by internal wind, then we see a congruity between stopping tremors and itching. Bai ji li comes to mind for these two functions together. However no single herb seems to cover all these indications. but bai ji li and wu wei zi together come close. -- Chinese Herbs FAX: Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

As to flavor, is it sour? That would add some weight to the astringent hypothesis.

>>>>I would think the perperation and other components would effect tast

Alon

 

-

WMorris116

Saturday, December 22, 2001 5:29 PM

Re: Re: Benadryl

In a message dated 12/22/01 1:34:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

As to flavor, is it sour? That would add some weight to the astringent hypothesis. In order of presentation on my last experiment - Pungent - Bitter - Sour Will Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

One of the critiques of the genomics folks of biomedicine in the articles and books I've read is that delivery systems of pharmaceuticals are not tailored for individuals and their sensitivities, and that by accessing the genomes, medications can be designed for individual patients.>>>>That has been the direction that drug designers have been trying to go toward. A cell site specific drugs. Some may be designed to a particular patient and his disease. That is not easy and certainly not what TCM does. TCM mixes drugs to maximize effect and minimize side-effects. That is polypharmacy and is done every day in MDs offices. You give one drug and another to control the sideeffects of the first. They just don't have the experience of doing this that the Chinese have had

Alon

 

-

 

Saturday, December 22, 2001 7:57 PM

Re: Re: Benadryl

One of the critiques of the genomics folks of biomedicine in the articles and books I've read is that delivery systems of pharmaceuticals are not tailored for individuals and their sensitivities, and that by accessing the genomes, medications can be designed for individual patients.On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 08:44 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

With what little I know about genetic researchof this type, it strikes me that it far moreclosely approaches the theoretical perspectiveof Chinese medicine, as it attempts to comprehendand address the individual at a fundamental level.>>>and that is not part of WM?Alon-dragon90405 Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 11:13 PM Re: Benadryl>I think this med is ascending> and floating because it exerts a strong effect on the upper body> (sinuses), but also on the surface (skin). However, to beaccurate, it> affects the skin in the lower body as well.The last sentence seems to suggest that a substancewhich is "ascending and floating" generally onlyaffects the upper body. Is that what you mean?Since Bob's intention on this thread was todescribe a western med in traditional Chineseterms, can you specify what Chinese termsyou have in mind when you say "ascneding andfloating"?>I disagree with Alon that> chinese herbs should be used with TCM and western meds according to> pharmacology and never the twain shall meet. In fact,pharmaceutical> companies are now using the human genome to develop research to seeif> certain meds work better in certain genotypes with less risk thanin> others. Modern bian zheng?>With what little I know about genetic researchof this type, it strikes me that it far moreclosely approaches the theoretical perspectiveof Chinese medicine, as it attempts to comprehendand address the individual at a fundamental level.I hope to get it on the research agenda ofthe new Complexity and ResearchCenter recently formed in Beijing.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Benadryls are created equal. Thus my thoughts on thinking of the rx more like a formula than an individual substance.>>>Benadry is a trade name so that they can use other stuff with it. But when you say Benadryl one usually mean a single drug

 

-

fbernall

Sunday, December 23, 2001 9:24 AM

Re: Benadryl

> >>>>Not true benadryl does not contain all the above. Benadryl cold or some other types may doOk. So then what we are seeing is that not all Benadryls are created equal. Thus my thoughts on thinking of the rx more like a formula than an individual substance.FernandoChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Or the OTC drug? I tasted the compound itself - diphenhydramine hydrochloride >>>>>It is an OTC drug

Alon

 

-

WMorris116

Sunday, December 23, 2001 10:01 AM

Re: Re: Benadryl

In a message dated 12/23/01 7:40:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, fbernall writes:

Will, did you taste the actual compound itself? Or the OTC drug? I tasted the compound itself - diphenhydramine hydrochloride will Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Could this be because when benadryl is used by those whose sx are strongly excess or exterior, they get sx of stagnation and heat, like itching, rash, headache, constipation, dryness, thick, viscous phlegm, restlessness, nervousness, irritability, blurred vision, tinnitus

>>>Except that these are all side effects of anticholinergic activity. If you give strong anticholinergics to anybody he will develop sideeffects related to this action in the body. Its only a question of dosage and sensitivity (ie how quickly and how bothersome the sideeffects would be). That is the problem I am having. If we could predict who would develop which sideeffect I would say the exercise is very useful. But, I think knowing the pharmacology is more predictive than TCM patterns.

Alon

 

-

cha

Sunday, December 23, 2001 11:55 AM

re: benadryl

I actually think it is relevant to look at the side effect profile of benadryl and other drugs. while side effects do not occur in all users, they suggest what happens to a user who is unsuited for the med. this reveals something about the med's qualities, because side effects are directly related to whether a med is warm, cool, ascending, descending, etc. the side effects of benadryl include sx it also treats. Could this be because when benadryl is used by those whose sx are strongly excess or exterior, they get sx of stagnation and heat, like itching, rash, headache, constipation, dryness, thick, viscous phlegm, restlessness, nervousness, irritability, blurred vision, tinnitus. -- Chinese Herbs FAX: Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " Ruth Goldenberg " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

 

> >>>Except that these are all side effects of anticholinergic activity.

 

That is one way of looking at things. TCM is another. It doesn't make

sense to me that you think these two are mutually exlusive, that

whichever system first described a medicinal is the only valid

description. If ginseng had first been studied by chemists, would you

argue that it does not tonify the qi because all it does is regulate

the adrenal-pitutiary axis? Speculation is the first stage in

determining the TCM effects of a medicinal. That is how it began for

all medicinals. If you don't find this process clinically useful, no

one is forcing you to participate. But I think you are alone (on this

list) in your opinion that it is a senseless exercise.

 

[Guest guest]

In the hospital were I work benadryl is commonly used to help kids sleep,

but almost as many kids have the opposite affect and it keeps them up all

night. I consider this to be " drug dealing " , not practicing medicine,

reguardless of whether it's legal or not. Doug

 

> " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus

>

>

>Re: Re: Benadryl

>Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:57:06 -0800

>

>does it cause drowsiness

> >>>Yes and is used as a sleeping pill. It does not treat the SOB but

>reduces the allergic effect so that the tub is less inflamed and there is

>less phlegm. Epinephrine is usually used to directly open lungs and

>bronchi to treat short breath. It has a very drying effect. Due to atropine

>like action is also speeds the heart. Remember that edema is a big issue,

>probably of TCM lung type.

>Alon

>Alon

> -

> 1

>

> Friday, December 21, 2001 5:14 PM

> Re: Benadryl

>

>

>

> > , " pemachophel2001 " <

> > pemachophel2001> wrote:

>

> How about Benadryl (diphenhydraine)?

>

> I'll elaborate on what I wrote earlier. I think this med is ascending

> and floating because it exerts a strong effect on the upper body

> (sinuses), but also on the surface (skin). However, to be accurate, it

> affects the skin in the lower body as well. To continue,it does have

> some internal effects. An EMT told me in a pinch it can be used to

> slow anaphylaxis which manifests as SOB. So this is a lung function.

> In TCM, the lungs are related to both the sinuses and the skin.

> Finally, the cause of the allergic conditons treated by benadryl are

> usually attributed to exterior wind, to which the lung is most

> sensitive in TCM. In fact, we might go so far as to say that this med

> enters the lung channel and relieves the exterior, at least in part.

>

> Since urination requires a descent of qi, anything that moves qi up and

> to the surface would inhibit this possibly. However, this is not

> always the case. Remember ma huang promotes urination and LU & BL are

> related by the midday/midnight rule. I don't have a PDR at home, so I

> don't know benadryl's other effects offhand. does it cause drowsiness?

>

> I think it is drying becasue it dries up secretions like excess mucus.

> Drying may damage fluids, also inhibiting urine. Many exterior

> releasing herbs used for sinuses are warm, but not all (consider ge

> gen, bo he). It is hard for me to say this is warm. It treats red

> rashes on one hand, but treats clear copious discharge on the other.

>

> BTW, I obviously think this is a relevant exercise. Any substance can

> be described by both TCM and modern pharmacology. Knowing the TCM may

> allow one to mitigate side effects and apply in only certain

> constitutions. So while I think there is a role for a purely

> pharmacological approach to using meds, I disagree with Alon that

> chinese herbs should be used with TCM and western meds according to

> pharmacology and never the twain shall meet. In fact, pharmaceutical

> companies are now using the human genome to develop research to see if

> certain meds work better in certain genotypes with less risk than in

> others. Modern bian zheng?

>

> Todd

> > >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Todd my point is that the action is universal and does not depend on TCM patterns. Not that we can not try to understand from a TCM perspective. The other thing is that it would be very difficult to find a consistent TCM mechanism that would explain all the effects of the drug. To some extent the understanding of WM pharmacology is a more holistic view because if a mechanism for a drug is known, which is quite rare, one can predict effects quite accurately. But what we are doing is defiantly worth while even though completely speculative. I have especially enjoyed your interpretations

Alon

 

 

-

1

Sunday, December 23, 2001 9:29 PM

Re: benadryl

, "Ruth Goldenberg" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> >>>Except that these are all side effects of anticholinergic activity. That is one way of looking at things. TCM is another. It doesn't make sense to me that you think these two are mutually exlusive, that whichever system first described a medicinal is the only valid description. If ginseng had first been studied by chemists, would you argue that it does not tonify the qi because all it does is regulate the adrenal-pitutiary axis? Speculation is the first stage in determining the TCM effects of a medicinal. That is how it began for all medicinals. If you don't find this process clinically useful, no one is forcing you to participate. But I think you are alone (on this list) in your opinion that it is a senseless exercise.Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

In the hospital were I work Benadryl is commonly used to help kids sleep, but almost as many kids have the opposite affect and it keeps them up all night. I consider this to be "drug dealing", not practicing medicine, regardless of whether it's legal or not. Doug>>>Why because it may not work, or because it is a pharmaceutical? Would an herb be better? How about pot? Benadryl is a very safe drug with more documented and studied clinical experience than many herbs we give. The question of why it does not always work is the million dollar questions and we could predict from a TCM understanding that it would be quite a contribution to NEW Medicine

Alon

 

 

-

burr douglas

Sunday, December 23, 2001 9:45 PM

Re: Re: Benadryl

In the hospital were I work benadryl is commonly used to help kids sleep, but almost as many kids have the opposite affect and it keeps them up all night. I consider this to be "drug dealing", not practicing medicine, reguardless of whether it's legal or not. Doug>"ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus> >>Re: Re: Benadryl>Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:57:06 -0800>>does it cause drowsiness> >>>Yes and is used as a sleeping pill. It does not treat the SOB but >reduces the allergic effect so that the tub is less inflamed and there is >less phlegm. Epinephrine is usually used to directly open lungs and >bronchi to treat short breath. It has a very drying effect. Due to atropine >like action is also speeds the heart. Remember that edema is a big issue, >probably of TCM lung type.>Alon>Alon> -> 1> > Friday, December 21, 2001 5:14 PM> Re: Benadryl>>>> > , "pemachophel2001" <> > pemachophel2001> wrote:>> How about Benadryl (diphenhydraine)?>> I'll elaborate on what I wrote earlier. I think this med is ascending> and floating because it exerts a strong effect on the upper body> (sinuses), but also on the surface (skin). However, to be accurate, it> affects the skin in the lower body as well. To continue,it does have> some internal effects. An EMT told me in a pinch it can be used to> slow anaphylaxis which manifests as SOB. So this is a lung function.> In TCM, the lungs are related to both the sinuses and the skin.> Finally, the cause of the allergic conditons treated by benadryl are> usually attributed to exterior wind, to which the lung is most> sensitive in TCM. In fact, we might go so far as to say that this med> enters the lung channel and relieves the exterior, at least in part.>> Since urination requires a descent of qi, anything that moves qi up and> to the surface would inhibit this possibly. However, this is not> always the case. Remember ma huang promotes urination and LU & BL are> related by the midday/midnight rule. I don't have a PDR at home, so I> don't know benadryl's other effects offhand. does it cause drowsiness?>> I think it is drying becasue it dries up secretions like excess mucus.> Drying may damage fluids, also inhibiting urine. Many exterior> releasing herbs used for sinuses are warm, but not all (consider ge> gen, bo he). It is hard for me to say this is warm. It treats red> rashes on one hand, but treats clear copious discharge on the other.>> BTW, I obviously think this is a relevant exercise. Any substance can> be described by both TCM and modern pharmacology. Knowing the TCM may> allow one to mitigate side effects and apply in only certain> constitutions. So while I think there is a role for a purely> pharmacological approach to using meds, I disagree with Alon that> chinese herbs should be used with TCM and western meds according to> pharmacology and never the twain shall meet. In fact, pharmaceutical> companies are now using the human genome to develop research to see if> certain meds work better in certain genotypes with less risk than in> others. Modern bian zheng?>> Todd> > >>>>>

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

my point is that the action is universal and does not depend on TCM

patterns.

 

I believe all medicines exert their actions through pharmacological

effects. However, I also think we can assess their effects on

physiology from a TCM perspective in order to make better sense of how

our patients are being affected by their meds and what we can do to

rectify any adverse effects by using TCM principles. Of course,this

ultimately depends on the patient's presentation. I am constantly

irked when I am told that a patient has spleen xu because they took

antibiotics. Or similarly, that they are lung yin xu because they

smoke. Unless they present with actual s/s of these patterns,

etiological factors are not meaningful to treatment. However, it still

might make sense to protect against adverse effects by supporting the

spleen or the lungs in my examples, or in the case of benadryl, perhaps

against stagnation due to astringency. The only way to know for sure

would be a large study,though. And this is hardly the type of study

that gets funded.

 

[Guest guest]

benadryl, perhaps against stagnation due to astringency. The only way to know for sure would be a large study,though. And this is hardly the type of study that gets funded. >>>>>>>I agree. Although I think wu wei zi works well for some of the sideeffects and i have experience using it

Alon

 

-

 

1

Monday, December 24, 2001 10:31 AM

Re: benadryl

, "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: my point is that the action is universal and does not depend on TCM patterns.I believe all medicines exert their actions through pharmacological effects. However, I also think we can assess their effects on physiology from a TCM perspective in order to make better sense of how our patients are being affected by their meds and what we can do to rectify any adverse effects by using TCM principles. Of course,this ultimately depends on the patient's presentation. I am constantly irked when I am told that a patient has spleen xu because they took antibiotics. Or similarly, that they are lung yin xu because they smoke. Unless they present with actual s/s of these patterns, etiological factors are not meaningful to treatment. However, it still might make sense to protect against adverse effects by supporting the spleen or the lungs in my examples, or in the case of benadryl, perhaps against stagnation due to astringency. The only way to know for sure would be a large study,though. And this is hardly the type of study that gets funded. ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Having just returned from Xmas in Texas (an experience of it's own),

I'm going to jump in here instead of responding to each of the points

and queries made in this thread.

 

First of all, Fernando, I think you've made a very interesting

discovery, i.e., that Benadryl is a formula, not a single medicinal. I

didn't know this at the time I suggested this as an example. From the

source I looked at (James W. Long's The Essential Guide to

Prescription Drugs), I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply

diphendydramine. My mistake. What this means is that, in order to work

out a CM description of this medicine, we must first work out the CM

descriptions of pseudoephedrine, acetaminophen, AND diphenhydramine.

 

The good news is that I don't think anyone should have any big

difficulty with assuming that pseudoephedrine is an upbearing,

out-thrusting exterior-resolver analogous to Ma Huang. Not only does

it resolve the exterior, it also diffuses the lungs. However, like Ma

Huang, on the down side, its scattering and diffusing nature may also

damage both qi and yin. Since yang is nothing other than a lot of qi

and yin and yang are mutually rooted, damage qi and yin enough and you

could also damage yang, depending on the patient's habitual bodily

(constitution) and other contributing factors.

 

Acetaminophen is also relatively easy to deal with in CM terms. As

already pointed out, its two main uses are as an analgesic and

anti-inflammatory. The single key statement about pain is that, if

there is pain, there is no free flow. Based on this " fact, " all

analgesics must, ipso facto according to the logic of CM, somehow

restore free flow. The main categories of Chinese meds which restore

free flow of the qi and blood in the body via a vis pain are A)

exterior-resolvers, B) qi-rectifiers, C) blood-quickeners, and

D)wind-treating medicinals. So acetaminophen should probably be

classified as one of these types of Chinese meds. Now let's look at

inflammation. Inflammation may or may not be detectable via the

four examinations. In cases where it is not detectable by one of the

four examinations, such as in many cases of tennis elbow, it is

typically reframed into pain. In that case, we're back to pain again.

In cases where there is detectable heat in a CM sense, we need to look

at all the different ways of eliminating heat in CM. Heat may be

cleared using bitter, cold medicinals. However, it may also be

out-thrust when that heat is depressive in nature (as is heat due to

traumatic injury). Yet another method is to seep dampness to " lead

yang into the the yin tract. "

 

I don't think we can make a case for acetaminophen being a bitter,

cold heat-clearing medicinal if we look at all its clinical uses,

adverse reactions, and its reactions with other substances and

situations. That leaves the probability that it both stops pain and

clears heat by somehow freeing the flow and resolving depression.

(Here I do not mean necessarily liver depression. Here I'm using the

word the way Zhu Dan-xi used it.)

 

That brings us back again to the same four categories of Chinese

medicines suggested above. Since acetaminophen achieves an effect on

pains other than that which are characteristic of blood

stasis, my guess at the moment is that it is not simply a

blood-quickening med. Anything that moves the qi strongly will, at

least to some extent, also move the blood. This is based on the

statement, the qi moves the blood; if the qi moves, the blood moves.

If acetaminophen is a blood-quickener, it is a blood-quickener like

Chuan Xiong and Yuan Hu Suo which move the qi within the blood. What

this really means is that these two meds straddle the fence between

qi-rectifiers and blood-quickeners. However, don't forget that an

exterior-resolver such as Bai Zhi is also a very effective

pain-stopping medicinal which is an exterior-resolver. So this med

could be an exterior-resolver.

 

Because of time and the necessity of seeing patients and running Blue

Poppy, I'm going to leave acetaminophen here at this point. Instead of

actually working out its CM description, I'm going to move onto

diphenhydramine. We're in the ballpark with acetaminophen in any case.

What we know is that it is strongly moving in nature, and strongly

moving medicinals tend to be acrid in terms of taste. Also, strong

moving medicinals are also attacking medicinal according to the logic

of CM. This means they damage the righteous. Specifically, what this

mostly means is that they scatter the qi (and, therefore, yang) and

may damage yin (and, therefore, blood and body fluids).

 

What are the clinical applications of diphenhydramine?

 

1. Relief of allergic rhinitis

2. Relief of allergic dermatoses

3. Prevention & relief of motion sickness

4. Partial relief of symptoms of Parkinson's disease

5. Nonaddictive yet effective (i.e., strong) sedative and hypnotic

 

In CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective sedatives,

achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering

exterior-resolvers. Consciousness is a function of the spirit

brilliance which is, in turn, nothing other than a certain quantity of

yang qi accumulated in the heart and nourished by the blood and

essence. Opiates achieve their sedation by scattering or

deconstructing the spirit brilliance.

 

That being said, could a strongly scattering and dispersing

exterior-resolver also be used to treat allergic rhinitis and

allergice dermatoses according to the prescriptive logic of CM? Most

definitely so. Acrid exterior-resolvers are routinely used in CM to

treat both allergic rhinitis and allergic dermatoses (with one of the

most common allergic deramtological complaint being urticaria or

hives). The active stage of allergic rhinitis and the active stage of

allergic dermatoses are both considered exterior pattern conditions,

meaning not necessarily that they are caused by an externally

contracted evil but are manifesting in the exterior (in Chinese,

external and exterior are different words and have different meanings

and imlications). In the case of allergic rhinitis, there is the

assumption that there is an externally contracted wind evil (meaning

some useen airborne pathogen). In the case of allergic dermatoses,

there may or may not be an externally contracted wind evil, but the

fact that symptoms appear in the exterior means that the disease

manifests and exterior pattern.

 

Ok, are any exterior-resolvers ever used in CM to treat nausea and

vomiting? Yes, Chai Hu, Sheng Jiang, Zi Su Ye, and Ge Gen are all

exterior-resolvers which can be used to treat nausea and vomiting.

This is because all nausea and vomiting involves upward counterflow of

the stomach qi no matter what its other disease mechanims, and

exterior-resolving medicinals and qi-rectifying medicinals are often

used interchangeably to rectfy the qi, thus downbearing counterflow

and harmonizing the stomach. So, within CM, it there are other

medicinals which are used to both resolve the exterior and rectify the

qi and thereby treat allergic rhinitis, allergic dermatoses, and

nausea and vomiting. Therefore, provisionally, I think we can

hypothesize that diphendydramine is a very strong acrid,

exterior-resolver. I say strong because it causes marked sedation in

50% of those who take it at recommeneded dosages. However, we now must

see if that description would account for all its known adverse

reactions and any effects potentized by other combinations or factors.

 

What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For that we'd

need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves.

Parkinson's includes tremors but more than tremors. For instance,

there is rigidity, hypokinesia, and muscular aching. Hypothetically,

it is easy to see how an acrid exterior-resolver might positively

affect rigidity and muscular aching since there is very little

difference between exterior-resolver and wind-treating medicinals in

CM and these two classes of meds are often used interchangeably. In

any case, my sources do not specify what PD symptoms diphenhydramine

benefits, and, until we know those, anything we say is complete,

unsupported conjecture.

 

The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side effects of

diphenhydramine are (according to Dr. Long): drowsiness,a sense of

weakness, dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and constipation.

Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid,

exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. Drowsiness and lack of

strength are due to scattering and dispersal of the qi. A dry nose,

mouth, and throat and constipation may be due to damage of fluids. In

addition, constipation might be a combination of both fluid damage and

dispsersal of lung qi due to the interior-exterior relationship of the

lungs and large intestine in CM.

 

More serious adverse reactions include skin rash and hives, headache,

dizziness, inability to concentrate, nervousness, blurred or double

vision, and difficult urination. Can a strong acrid exterior-resolver

treat hives in one person but cause them in another? According to CM,

the answer is yes. If a person has less blood, damage to fluids may

result in damage to blood (blood and fluids share a common source). In

that case, blood may fail to control the qi which may stir

frenetically and counterflow upward and outward, thus creating blood

vacuity-internal wind hives. How about headache? Yes, again, a strong

acrid, exterior-resolver may damage yin, thus leading to failure of

yin in its control of yang. If yang counterflows upward, viola,

headache, AND dizziness. How about nervousness? Yes again. If an

acrid, exterior-resolver damages yin and yin fails to control yang and

yang stirs frenetically, there may be nervous agitation and

restlessness. Lack of conctentration? This may be due to either or

some combination of scattered qi not constructing the spirit or yin

and blood not nourishing the spirit. Both may be a side effect of the

use of a very strong acrid exterior-resolver. Double vision and

blurred vision are mostly due to liver blood vacuity, and we know that

strong acrid exterior-resolvers may damage the blood. That leaves

difficult urination or prostatism. One of the contraindications of

Benadryl is prostatic hypertrophy. In CM, prostatic hypertrophy is

usually due to a combination of blood stasis and phlegm obstructing

the free flow of urine and qi vacuity failing to empower the discharge

of urine. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver disperse so much qi

that there was not enough left to push the urine out of the body? If

it were strong enough to scatter the spirit qi and cause sedation, I

would say yes. So once again, all the more serious adverse reactions

of diphgenhydramine can be explained by seeing this med as a strong

acrid exterior-resolver.

 

What about even more serious adverse reactions? Leukopenia and

platelet destruction. Leukopenia manifests as weakened cellular

immunity with fever, sore throat, and infections. Fever and sore

throat may be due to qi vacuity, yin vacuity, and/or contraction of

external evils. If the defensive qi is scattered, this leads to

nonsecuring of the exterior with easy contraction of external evils.

Platelet destruction leads to abnormal bleeding or bruising. This is

also typically due to qi vacuity not managing or containing the blood

within its vessels. Therefore, it is possible for a strongly

qi-scattering and yin-damaging medicinal to cause these reactions in

patients whose qi and/or yin is not strong and exuberant.

 

Diphenhydramine may also shorten the menstrual cycle. This can be due

either to qi vacuity not containing the blood or yin vacuity giving

rise to vacuity heat. Diphenhydramine may activate latent epilepsy,

galucoma, and prostatism. We've already dealt with prostatism above.

Epilepsy is usually associated with stirring wind, and we've seen that

damage to yin may lead to loss of control over the yang qi which may

then stir frenetically or hyperactively. Glaucoma is reframed into

clear-eyed blindness in Chinese medicine, and the main cause is blood

vacuity. We've already seen above how a strong acrid exterior-resolver

may damage yin-blood-fluids and lead to vision problems.

 

One of the cautions recorded for using this drug is in case of

bronchial asthma, bronchitis, or pneumonia since this med may thicken

mucus and make it more diffciult to expectorate. Could a strong acrid

exterior-resolver do that? Yes, if not combined with

phlegm-transforming, fluid-engendering meds.

 

This drug should be used with caution and reduced dosage in infants

and children because it can easily cause adverse reactions on the

brain and nervous system. In CM we say, infants have a pure yang body.

This means that yin and yang are not well mutually rooted

intercontrolling in infants. Therefore, yang easily becomes

hyperactive, and a strong acrid exterior-resolver could definitely

aggravate such a tendency.

 

Similarly, this drug may cause drowsiness, dizziness, unstreadiness

and impairment in thinking, judgement, and memory in those over 60.

However, the Nei Jing says that, at 40 years, yin is automatically

half. Further, due to decline in spleen function, there is less qi.

Thus the above reactions are due to scattering of the qi and damage to

yin in those with less qi and yin due to age.

 

What happens from an overdose of diphenhydramine? Marked drowsiness,

confusion, incoordination, unsteadiness, muscle tremors, stupor, coma,

seizures, fever, flushed face, weak pulse, shallow breathing. Anything

that scattering of qi and damage to yin wouldn't produce? No.

 

We also know that the combination diphenhydramine and alcohol can

cause rapid and marked sedation. We know that alcohol is also acrid

and very scattering, dispersing, and moving. So it makes sense that

putting two scattering, dispersing, moving meds together would cause

even more marked and quicker sedation, i.e., deconstruction of the

spirit qi. Similarly, diphenhydramine may potentize all drugs which a

sedative action (which, please be careful here, is not the same as

spirit-quieting. Gotta be sure not to mix apples and oranges).

 

At this point in time, I feel pretty comfortable hypothesizing that

diphenhydramine is an acrid, exterior-resolving medicinal according to

the logic of Chinese medicine. Now, to prove, this, we would need to

go into the clinic and see if there is more marked drowsiness and lack

of strength in patients who present a qi vacuity pattern who take this

med, or if patients with a yin vacuity pattern who take this drug tend

to have more nervousness and agitation. My limited experience with

this drug, both as a patient and as a practitioner suggests that this

is the case. However, we would need a certain sample size before we

could come to any justifiable conclusions.

 

Nevertheless, hopefully, this should help explain how I think one can

begin hypothesizing about the CM description of Western meds. Maybe

someday there'll be a PDR with these kinds of descriptions in them.

Till then, we will have to figure these things out for themselves.

However, this does require knowing Chinese medicine really well in the

correct words.

 

Good luck,

 

Bob

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Of the above three, which would you say has been affected by the

> > astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) effects of

> > benadryl?

> >

> > Fernando

>

> I think these all could be the results of over astringency