Guest guest Report post Posted December 27, 2001 Benadryl was simply diphendydramine >>>It is - pemachophel2001 Thursday, December 27, 2001 12:28 PM Re: Benadryl Having just returned from Xmas in Texas (an experience of it's own), I'm going to jump in here instead of responding to each of the points and queries made in this thread.First of all, Fernando, I think you've made a very interesting discovery, i.e., that Benadryl is a formula, not a single medicinal. I didn't know this at the time I suggested this as an example. From the source I looked at (James W. Long's The Essential Guide to Prescription Drugs), I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply diphendydramine. My mistake. What this means is that, in order to work out a CM description of this medicine, we must first work out the CM descriptions of pseudoephedrine, acetaminophen, AND diphenhydramine.The good news is that I don't think anyone should have any big difficulty with assuming that pseudoephedrine is an upbearing, out-thrusting exterior-resolver analogous to Ma Huang. Not only does it resolve the exterior, it also diffuses the lungs. However, like Ma Huang, on the down side, its scattering and diffusing nature may also damage both qi and yin. Since yang is nothing other than a lot of qi and yin and yang are mutually rooted, damage qi and yin enough and you could also damage yang, depending on the patient's habitual bodily (constitution) and other contributing factors.Acetaminophen is also relatively easy to deal with in CM terms. As already pointed out, its two main uses are as an analgesic and anti-inflammatory. The single key statement about pain is that, if there is pain, there is no free flow. Based on this "fact," all analgesics must, ipso facto according to the logic of CM, somehow restore free flow. The main categories of Chinese meds which restore free flow of the qi and blood in the body via a vis pain are A) exterior-resolvers, B) qi-rectifiers, C) blood-quickeners, and D)wind-treating medicinals. So acetaminophen should probably be classified as one of these types of Chinese meds. Now let's look at inflammation. Inflammation may or may not be detectable via the four examinations. In cases where it is not detectable by one of the four examinations, such as in many cases of tennis elbow, it is typically reframed into pain. In that case, we're back to pain again. In cases where there is detectable heat in a CM sense, we need to look at all the different ways of eliminating heat in CM. Heat may be cleared using bitter, cold medicinals. However, it may also be out-thrust when that heat is depressive in nature (as is heat due to traumatic injury). Yet another method is to seep dampness to "lead yang into the the yin tract." I don't think we can make a case for acetaminophen being a bitter, cold heat-clearing medicinal if we look at all its clinical uses, adverse reactions, and its reactions with other substances and situations. That leaves the probability that it both stops pain and clears heat by somehow freeing the flow and resolving depression. (Here I do not mean necessarily liver depression. Here I'm using the word the way Zhu Dan-xi used it.) That brings us back again to the same four categories of Chinese medicines suggested above. Since acetaminophen achieves an effect on pains other than that which are characteristic of blood stasis, my guess at the moment is that it is not simply a blood-quickening med. Anything that moves the qi strongly will, at least to some extent, also move the blood. This is based on the statement, the qi moves the blood; if the qi moves, the blood moves. If acetaminophen is a blood-quickener, it is a blood-quickener like Chuan Xiong and Yuan Hu Suo which move the qi within the blood. What this really means is that these two meds straddle the fence between qi-rectifiers and blood-quickeners. However, don't forget that an exterior-resolver such as Bai Zhi is also a very effective pain-stopping medicinal which is an exterior-resolver. So this med could be an exterior-resolver. Because of time and the necessity of seeing patients and running Blue Poppy, I'm going to leave acetaminophen here at this point. Instead of actually working out its CM description, I'm going to move onto diphenhydramine. We're in the ballpark with acetaminophen in any case. What we know is that it is strongly moving in nature, and strongly moving medicinals tend to be acrid in terms of taste. Also, strong moving medicinals are also attacking medicinal according to the logic of CM. This means they damage the righteous. Specifically, what this mostly means is that they scatter the qi (and, therefore, yang) and may damage yin (and, therefore, blood and body fluids). What are the clinical applications of diphenhydramine?1. Relief of allergic rhinitis2. Relief of allergic dermatoses3. Prevention & relief of motion sickness4. Partial relief of symptoms of Parkinson's disease5. Nonaddictive yet effective (i.e., strong) sedative and hypnoticIn CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective sedatives, achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering exterior-resolvers. Consciousness is a function of the spirit brilliance which is, in turn, nothing other than a certain quantity of yang qi accumulated in the heart and nourished by the blood and essence. Opiates achieve their sedation by scattering or deconstructing the spirit brilliance. That being said, could a strongly scattering and dispersing exterior-resolver also be used to treat allergic rhinitis and allergice dermatoses according to the prescriptive logic of CM? Most definitely so. Acrid exterior-resolvers are routinely used in CM to treat both allergic rhinitis and allergic dermatoses (with one of the most common allergic deramtological complaint being urticaria or hives). The active stage of allergic rhinitis and the active stage of allergic dermatoses are both considered exterior pattern conditions, meaning not necessarily that they are caused by an externally contracted evil but are manifesting in the exterior (in Chinese, external and exterior are different words and have different meanings and imlications). In the case of allergic rhinitis, there is the assumption that there is an externally contracted wind evil (meaning some useen airborne pathogen). In the case of allergic dermatoses, there may or may not be an externally contracted wind evil, but the fact that symptoms appear in the exterior means that the disease manifests and exterior pattern.Ok, are any exterior-resolvers ever used in CM to treat nausea and vomiting? Yes, Chai Hu, Sheng Jiang, Zi Su Ye, and Ge Gen are all exterior-resolvers which can be used to treat nausea and vomiting. This is because all nausea and vomiting involves upward counterflow of the stomach qi no matter what its other disease mechanims, and exterior-resolving medicinals and qi-rectifying medicinals are often used interchangeably to rectfy the qi, thus downbearing counterflow and harmonizing the stomach. So, within CM, it there are other medicinals which are used to both resolve the exterior and rectify the qi and thereby treat allergic rhinitis, allergic dermatoses, and nausea and vomiting. Therefore, provisionally, I think we can hypothesize that diphendydramine is a very strong acrid, exterior-resolver. I say strong because it causes marked sedation in 50% of those who take it at recommeneded dosages. However, we now must see if that description would account for all its known adverse reactions and any effects potentized by other combinations or factors.What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For that we'd need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves. Parkinson's includes tremors but more than tremors. For instance, there is rigidity, hypokinesia, and muscular aching. Hypothetically, it is easy to see how an acrid exterior-resolver might positively affect rigidity and muscular aching since there is very little difference between exterior-resolver and wind-treating medicinals in CM and these two classes of meds are often used interchangeably. In any case, my sources do not specify what PD symptoms diphenhydramine benefits, and, until we know those, anything we say is complete, unsupported conjecture.The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side effects of diphenhydramine are (according to Dr. Long): drowsiness,a sense of weakness, dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and constipation. Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid, exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. Drowsiness and lack of strength are due to scattering and dispersal of the qi. A dry nose, mouth, and throat and constipation may be due to damage of fluids. In addition, constipation might be a combination of both fluid damage and dispsersal of lung qi due to the interior-exterior relationship of the lungs and large intestine in CM.More serious adverse reactions include skin rash and hives, headache, dizziness, inability to concentrate, nervousness, blurred or double vision, and difficult urination. Can a strong acrid exterior-resolver treat hives in one person but cause them in another? According to CM, the answer is yes. If a person has less blood, damage to fluids may result in damage to blood (blood and fluids share a common source). In that case, blood may fail to control the qi which may stir frenetically and counterflow upward and outward, thus creating blood vacuity-internal wind hives. How about headache? Yes, again, a strong acrid, exterior-resolver may damage yin, thus leading to failure of yin in its control of yang. If yang counterflows upward, viola, headache, AND dizziness. How about nervousness? Yes again. If an acrid, exterior-resolver damages yin and yin fails to control yang and yang stirs frenetically, there may be nervous agitation and restlessness. Lack of conctentration? This may be due to either or some combination of scattered qi not constructing the spirit or yin and blood not nourishing the spirit. Both may be a side effect of the use of a very strong acrid exterior-resolver. Double vision and blurred vision are mostly due to liver blood vacuity, and we know that strong acrid exterior-resolvers may damage the blood. That leaves difficult urination or prostatism. One of the contraindications of Benadryl is prostatic hypertrophy. In CM, prostatic hypertrophy is usually due to a combination of blood stasis and phlegm obstructing the free flow of urine and qi vacuity failing to empower the discharge of urine. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver disperse so much qi that there was not enough left to push the urine out of the body? If it were strong enough to scatter the spirit qi and cause sedation, I would say yes. So once again, all the more serious adverse reactions of diphgenhydramine can be explained by seeing this med as a strong acrid exterior-resolver.What about even more serious adverse reactions? Leukopenia and platelet destruction. Leukopenia manifests as weakened cellular immunity with fever, sore throat, and infections. Fever and sore throat may be due to qi vacuity, yin vacuity, and/or contraction of external evils. If the defensive qi is scattered, this leads to nonsecuring of the exterior with easy contraction of external evils. Platelet destruction leads to abnormal bleeding or bruising. This is also typically due to qi vacuity not managing or containing the blood within its vessels. Therefore, it is possible for a strongly qi-scattering and yin-damaging medicinal to cause these reactions in patients whose qi and/or yin is not strong and exuberant.Diphenhydramine may also shorten the menstrual cycle. This can be due either to qi vacuity not containing the blood or yin vacuity giving rise to vacuity heat. Diphenhydramine may activate latent epilepsy, galucoma, and prostatism. We've already dealt with prostatism above. Epilepsy is usually associated with stirring wind, and we've seen that damage to yin may lead to loss of control over the yang qi which may then stir frenetically or hyperactively. Glaucoma is reframed into clear-eyed blindness in Chinese medicine, and the main cause is blood vacuity. We've already seen above how a strong acrid exterior-resolver may damage yin-blood-fluids and lead to vision problems.One of the cautions recorded for using this drug is in case of bronchial asthma, bronchitis, or pneumonia since this med may thicken mucus and make it more diffciult to expectorate. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver do that? Yes, if not combined with phlegm-transforming, fluid-engendering meds.This drug should be used with caution and reduced dosage in infants and children because it can easily cause adverse reactions on the brain and nervous system. In CM we say, infants have a pure yang body. This means that yin and yang are not well mutually rooted intercontrolling in infants. Therefore, yang easily becomes hyperactive, and a strong acrid exterior-resolver could definitely aggravate such a tendency.Similarly, this drug may cause drowsiness, dizziness, unstreadiness and impairment in thinking, judgement, and memory in those over 60. However, the Nei Jing says that, at 40 years, yin is automatically half. Further, due to decline in spleen function, there is less qi. Thus the above reactions are due to scattering of the qi and damage to yin in those with less qi and yin due to age.What happens from an overdose of diphenhydramine? Marked drowsiness, confusion, incoordination, unsteadiness, muscle tremors, stupor, coma, seizures, fever, flushed face, weak pulse, shallow breathing. Anything that scattering of qi and damage to yin wouldn't produce? No.We also know that the combination diphenhydramine and alcohol can cause rapid and marked sedation. We know that alcohol is also acrid and very scattering, dispersing, and moving. So it makes sense that putting two scattering, dispersing, moving meds together would cause even more marked and quicker sedation, i.e., deconstruction of the spirit qi. Similarly, diphenhydramine may potentize all drugs which a sedative action (which, please be careful here, is not the same as spirit-quieting. Gotta be sure not to mix apples and oranges).At this point in time, I feel pretty comfortable hypothesizing that diphenhydramine is an acrid, exterior-resolving medicinal according to the logic of Chinese medicine. Now, to prove, this, we would need to go into the clinic and see if there is more marked drowsiness and lack of strength in patients who present a qi vacuity pattern who take this med, or if patients with a yin vacuity pattern who take this drug tend to have more nervousness and agitation. My limited experience with this drug, both as a patient and as a practitioner suggests that this is the case. However, we would need a certain sample size before we could come to any justifiable conclusions.Nevertheless, hopefully, this should help explain how I think one can begin hypothesizing about the CM description of Western meds. Maybe someday there'll be a PDR with these kinds of descriptions in them. Till then, we will have to figure these things out for themselves. However, this does require knowing Chinese medicine really well in the correct words.Good luck,Bob , "1" <@i...> wrote:> , "fbernall" <fbernall@a...> wrote:> > > > > Of the above three, which would you say has been affected by the > > astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) effects of > > benadryl?> > > > Fernando> > I think these all could be the results of over astringencyChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 27, 2001 inflammation >>>It is not an anti-inflammatory Alon - pemachophel2001 Thursday, December 27, 2001 12:28 PM Re: Benadryl Having just returned from Xmas in Texas (an experience of it's own), I'm going to jump in here instead of responding to each of the points and queries made in this thread.First of all, Fernando, I think you've made a very interesting discovery, i.e., that Benadryl is a formula, not a single medicinal. I didn't know this at the time I suggested this as an example. From the source I looked at (James W. Long's The Essential Guide to Prescription Drugs), I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply diphendydramine. My mistake. What this means is that, in order to work out a CM description of this medicine, we must first work out the CM descriptions of pseudoephedrine, acetaminophen, AND diphenhydramine.The good news is that I don't think anyone should have any big difficulty with assuming that pseudoephedrine is an upbearing, out-thrusting exterior-resolver analogous to Ma Huang. Not only does it resolve the exterior, it also diffuses the lungs. However, like Ma Huang, on the down side, its scattering and diffusing nature may also damage both qi and yin. Since yang is nothing other than a lot of qi and yin and yang are mutually rooted, damage qi and yin enough and you could also damage yang, depending on the patient's habitual bodily (constitution) and other contributing factors.Acetaminophen is also relatively easy to deal with in CM terms. As already pointed out, its two main uses are as an analgesic and anti-inflammatory. The single key statement about pain is that, if there is pain, there is no free flow. Based on this "fact," all analgesics must, ipso facto according to the logic of CM, somehow restore free flow. The main categories of Chinese meds which restore free flow of the qi and blood in the body via a vis pain are A) exterior-resolvers, B) qi-rectifiers, C) blood-quickeners, and D)wind-treating medicinals. So acetaminophen should probably be classified as one of these types of Chinese meds. Now let's look at inflammation. Inflammation may or may not be detectable via the four examinations. In cases where it is not detectable by one of the four examinations, such as in many cases of tennis elbow, it is typically reframed into pain. In that case, we're back to pain again. In cases where there is detectable heat in a CM sense, we need to look at all the different ways of eliminating heat in CM. Heat may be cleared using bitter, cold medicinals. However, it may also be out-thrust when that heat is depressive in nature (as is heat due to traumatic injury). Yet another method is to seep dampness to "lead yang into the the yin tract." I don't think we can make a case for acetaminophen being a bitter, cold heat-clearing medicinal if we look at all its clinical uses, adverse reactions, and its reactions with other substances and situations. That leaves the probability that it both stops pain and clears heat by somehow freeing the flow and resolving depression. (Here I do not mean necessarily liver depression. Here I'm using the word the way Zhu Dan-xi used it.) That brings us back again to the same four categories of Chinese medicines suggested above. Since acetaminophen achieves an effect on pains other than that which are characteristic of blood stasis, my guess at the moment is that it is not simply a blood-quickening med. Anything that moves the qi strongly will, at least to some extent, also move the blood. This is based on the statement, the qi moves the blood; if the qi moves, the blood moves. If acetaminophen is a blood-quickener, it is a blood-quickener like Chuan Xiong and Yuan Hu Suo which move the qi within the blood. What this really means is that these two meds straddle the fence between qi-rectifiers and blood-quickeners. However, don't forget that an exterior-resolver such as Bai Zhi is also a very effective pain-stopping medicinal which is an exterior-resolver. So this med could be an exterior-resolver. Because of time and the necessity of seeing patients and running Blue Poppy, I'm going to leave acetaminophen here at this point. Instead of actually working out its CM description, I'm going to move onto diphenhydramine. We're in the ballpark with acetaminophen in any case. What we know is that it is strongly moving in nature, and strongly moving medicinals tend to be acrid in terms of taste. Also, strong moving medicinals are also attacking medicinal according to the logic of CM. This means they damage the righteous. Specifically, what this mostly means is that they scatter the qi (and, therefore, yang) and may damage yin (and, therefore, blood and body fluids). What are the clinical applications of diphenhydramine?1. Relief of allergic rhinitis2. Relief of allergic dermatoses3. Prevention & relief of motion sickness4. Partial relief of symptoms of Parkinson's disease5. Nonaddictive yet effective (i.e., strong) sedative and hypnoticIn CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective sedatives, achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering exterior-resolvers. Consciousness is a function of the spirit brilliance which is, in turn, nothing other than a certain quantity of yang qi accumulated in the heart and nourished by the blood and essence. Opiates achieve their sedation by scattering or deconstructing the spirit brilliance. That being said, could a strongly scattering and dispersing exterior-resolver also be used to treat allergic rhinitis and allergice dermatoses according to the prescriptive logic of CM? Most definitely so. Acrid exterior-resolvers are routinely used in CM to treat both allergic rhinitis and allergic dermatoses (with one of the most common allergic deramtological complaint being urticaria or hives). The active stage of allergic rhinitis and the active stage of allergic dermatoses are both considered exterior pattern conditions, meaning not necessarily that they are caused by an externally contracted evil but are manifesting in the exterior (in Chinese, external and exterior are different words and have different meanings and imlications). In the case of allergic rhinitis, there is the assumption that there is an externally contracted wind evil (meaning some useen airborne pathogen). In the case of allergic dermatoses, there may or may not be an externally contracted wind evil, but the fact that symptoms appear in the exterior means that the disease manifests and exterior pattern.Ok, are any exterior-resolvers ever used in CM to treat nausea and vomiting? Yes, Chai Hu, Sheng Jiang, Zi Su Ye, and Ge Gen are all exterior-resolvers which can be used to treat nausea and vomiting. This is because all nausea and vomiting involves upward counterflow of the stomach qi no matter what its other disease mechanims, and exterior-resolving medicinals and qi-rectifying medicinals are often used interchangeably to rectfy the qi, thus downbearing counterflow and harmonizing the stomach. So, within CM, it there are other medicinals which are used to both resolve the exterior and rectify the qi and thereby treat allergic rhinitis, allergic dermatoses, and nausea and vomiting. Therefore, provisionally, I think we can hypothesize that diphendydramine is a very strong acrid, exterior-resolver. I say strong because it causes marked sedation in 50% of those who take it at recommeneded dosages. However, we now must see if that description would account for all its known adverse reactions and any effects potentized by other combinations or factors.What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For that we'd need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves. Parkinson's includes tremors but more than tremors. For instance, there is rigidity, hypokinesia, and muscular aching. Hypothetically, it is easy to see how an acrid exterior-resolver might positively affect rigidity and muscular aching since there is very little difference between exterior-resolver and wind-treating medicinals in CM and these two classes of meds are often used interchangeably. In any case, my sources do not specify what PD symptoms diphenhydramine benefits, and, until we know those, anything we say is complete, unsupported conjecture.The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side effects of diphenhydramine are (according to Dr. Long): drowsiness,a sense of weakness, dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and constipation. Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid, exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. Drowsiness and lack of strength are due to scattering and dispersal of the qi. A dry nose, mouth, and throat and constipation may be due to damage of fluids. In addition, constipation might be a combination of both fluid damage and dispsersal of lung qi due to the interior-exterior relationship of the lungs and large intestine in CM.More serious adverse reactions include skin rash and hives, headache, dizziness, inability to concentrate, nervousness, blurred or double vision, and difficult urination. Can a strong acrid exterior-resolver treat hives in one person but cause them in another? According to CM, the answer is yes. If a person has less blood, damage to fluids may result in damage to blood (blood and fluids share a common source). In that case, blood may fail to control the qi which may stir frenetically and counterflow upward and outward, thus creating blood vacuity-internal wind hives. How about headache? Yes, again, a strong acrid, exterior-resolver may damage yin, thus leading to failure of yin in its control of yang. If yang counterflows upward, viola, headache, AND dizziness. How about nervousness? Yes again. If an acrid, exterior-resolver damages yin and yin fails to control yang and yang stirs frenetically, there may be nervous agitation and restlessness. Lack of conctentration? This may be due to either or some combination of scattered qi not constructing the spirit or yin and blood not nourishing the spirit. Both may be a side effect of the use of a very strong acrid exterior-resolver. Double vision and blurred vision are mostly due to liver blood vacuity, and we know that strong acrid exterior-resolvers may damage the blood. That leaves difficult urination or prostatism. One of the contraindications of Benadryl is prostatic hypertrophy. In CM, prostatic hypertrophy is usually due to a combination of blood stasis and phlegm obstructing the free flow of urine and qi vacuity failing to empower the discharge of urine. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver disperse so much qi that there was not enough left to push the urine out of the body? If it were strong enough to scatter the spirit qi and cause sedation, I would say yes. So once again, all the more serious adverse reactions of diphgenhydramine can be explained by seeing this med as a strong acrid exterior-resolver.What about even more serious adverse reactions? Leukopenia and platelet destruction. Leukopenia manifests as weakened cellular immunity with fever, sore throat, and infections. Fever and sore throat may be due to qi vacuity, yin vacuity, and/or contraction of external evils. If the defensive qi is scattered, this leads to nonsecuring of the exterior with easy contraction of external evils. Platelet destruction leads to abnormal bleeding or bruising. This is also typically due to qi vacuity not managing or containing the blood within its vessels. Therefore, it is possible for a strongly qi-scattering and yin-damaging medicinal to cause these reactions in patients whose qi and/or yin is not strong and exuberant.Diphenhydramine may also shorten the menstrual cycle. This can be due either to qi vacuity not containing the blood or yin vacuity giving rise to vacuity heat. Diphenhydramine may activate latent epilepsy, galucoma, and prostatism. We've already dealt with prostatism above. Epilepsy is usually associated with stirring wind, and we've seen that damage to yin may lead to loss of control over the yang qi which may then stir frenetically or hyperactively. Glaucoma is reframed into clear-eyed blindness in Chinese medicine, and the main cause is blood vacuity. We've already seen above how a strong acrid exterior-resolver may damage yin-blood-fluids and lead to vision problems.One of the cautions recorded for using this drug is in case of bronchial asthma, bronchitis, or pneumonia since this med may thicken mucus and make it more diffciult to expectorate. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver do that? Yes, if not combined with phlegm-transforming, fluid-engendering meds.This drug should be used with caution and reduced dosage in infants and children because it can easily cause adverse reactions on the brain and nervous system. In CM we say, infants have a pure yang body. This means that yin and yang are not well mutually rooted intercontrolling in infants. Therefore, yang easily becomes hyperactive, and a strong acrid exterior-resolver could definitely aggravate such a tendency.Similarly, this drug may cause drowsiness, dizziness, unstreadiness and impairment in thinking, judgement, and memory in those over 60. However, the Nei Jing says that, at 40 years, yin is automatically half. Further, due to decline in spleen function, there is less qi. Thus the above reactions are due to scattering of the qi and damage to yin in those with less qi and yin due to age.What happens from an overdose of diphenhydramine? Marked drowsiness, confusion, incoordination, unsteadiness, muscle tremors, stupor, coma, seizures, fever, flushed face, weak pulse, shallow breathing. Anything that scattering of qi and damage to yin wouldn't produce? No.We also know that the combination diphenhydramine and alcohol can cause rapid and marked sedation. We know that alcohol is also acrid and very scattering, dispersing, and moving. So it makes sense that putting two scattering, dispersing, moving meds together would cause even more marked and quicker sedation, i.e., deconstruction of the spirit qi. Similarly, diphenhydramine may potentize all drugs which a sedative action (which, please be careful here, is not the same as spirit-quieting. Gotta be sure not to mix apples and oranges).At this point in time, I feel pretty comfortable hypothesizing that diphenhydramine is an acrid, exterior-resolving medicinal according to the logic of Chinese medicine. Now, to prove, this, we would need to go into the clinic and see if there is more marked drowsiness and lack of strength in patients who present a qi vacuity pattern who take this med, or if patients with a yin vacuity pattern who take this drug tend to have more nervousness and agitation. My limited experience with this drug, both as a patient and as a practitioner suggests that this is the case. However, we would need a certain sample size before we could come to any justifiable conclusions.Nevertheless, hopefully, this should help explain how I think one can begin hypothesizing about the CM description of Western meds. Maybe someday there'll be a PDR with these kinds of descriptions in them. Till then, we will have to figure these things out for themselves. However, this does require knowing Chinese medicine really well in the correct words.Good luck,Bob , "1" <@i...> wrote:> , "fbernall" <fbernall@a...> wrote:> > > > > Of the above three, which would you say has been affected by the > > astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) effects of > > benadryl?> > > > Fernando> > I think these all could be the results of over astringencyChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 27, 2001 Nice exercise Bob. This would also explain why wu wei zi helps the sideeffects Alon - pemachophel2001 Thursday, December 27, 2001 12:28 PM Re: Benadryl Having just returned from Xmas in Texas (an experience of it's own), I'm going to jump in here instead of responding to each of the points and queries made in this thread.First of all, Fernando, I think you've made a very interesting discovery, i.e., that Benadryl is a formula, not a single medicinal. I didn't know this at the time I suggested this as an example. From the source I looked at (James W. Long's The Essential Guide to Prescription Drugs), I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply diphendydramine. My mistake. What this means is that, in order to work out a CM description of this medicine, we must first work out the CM descriptions of pseudoephedrine, acetaminophen, AND diphenhydramine.The good news is that I don't think anyone should have any big difficulty with assuming that pseudoephedrine is an upbearing, out-thrusting exterior-resolver analogous to Ma Huang. Not only does it resolve the exterior, it also diffuses the lungs. However, like Ma Huang, on the down side, its scattering and diffusing nature may also damage both qi and yin. Since yang is nothing other than a lot of qi and yin and yang are mutually rooted, damage qi and yin enough and you could also damage yang, depending on the patient's habitual bodily (constitution) and other contributing factors.Acetaminophen is also relatively easy to deal with in CM terms. As already pointed out, its two main uses are as an analgesic and anti-inflammatory. The single key statement about pain is that, if there is pain, there is no free flow. Based on this "fact," all analgesics must, ipso facto according to the logic of CM, somehow restore free flow. The main categories of Chinese meds which restore free flow of the qi and blood in the body via a vis pain are A) exterior-resolvers, B) qi-rectifiers, C) blood-quickeners, and D)wind-treating medicinals. So acetaminophen should probably be classified as one of these types of Chinese meds. Now let's look at inflammation. Inflammation may or may not be detectable via the four examinations. In cases where it is not detectable by one of the four examinations, such as in many cases of tennis elbow, it is typically reframed into pain. In that case, we're back to pain again. In cases where there is detectable heat in a CM sense, we need to look at all the different ways of eliminating heat in CM. Heat may be cleared using bitter, cold medicinals. However, it may also be out-thrust when that heat is depressive in nature (as is heat due to traumatic injury). Yet another method is to seep dampness to "lead yang into the the yin tract." I don't think we can make a case for acetaminophen being a bitter, cold heat-clearing medicinal if we look at all its clinical uses, adverse reactions, and its reactions with other substances and situations. That leaves the probability that it both stops pain and clears heat by somehow freeing the flow and resolving depression. (Here I do not mean necessarily liver depression. Here I'm using the word the way Zhu Dan-xi used it.) That brings us back again to the same four categories of Chinese medicines suggested above. Since acetaminophen achieves an effect on pains other than that which are characteristic of blood stasis, my guess at the moment is that it is not simply a blood-quickening med. Anything that moves the qi strongly will, at least to some extent, also move the blood. This is based on the statement, the qi moves the blood; if the qi moves, the blood moves. If acetaminophen is a blood-quickener, it is a blood-quickener like Chuan Xiong and Yuan Hu Suo which move the qi within the blood. What this really means is that these two meds straddle the fence between qi-rectifiers and blood-quickeners. However, don't forget that an exterior-resolver such as Bai Zhi is also a very effective pain-stopping medicinal which is an exterior-resolver. So this med could be an exterior-resolver. Because of time and the necessity of seeing patients and running Blue Poppy, I'm going to leave acetaminophen here at this point. Instead of actually working out its CM description, I'm going to move onto diphenhydramine. We're in the ballpark with acetaminophen in any case. What we know is that it is strongly moving in nature, and strongly moving medicinals tend to be acrid in terms of taste. Also, strong moving medicinals are also attacking medicinal according to the logic of CM. This means they damage the righteous. Specifically, what this mostly means is that they scatter the qi (and, therefore, yang) and may damage yin (and, therefore, blood and body fluids). What are the clinical applications of diphenhydramine?1. Relief of allergic rhinitis2. Relief of allergic dermatoses3. Prevention & relief of motion sickness4. Partial relief of symptoms of Parkinson's disease5. Nonaddictive yet effective (i.e., strong) sedative and hypnoticIn CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective sedatives, achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering exterior-resolvers. Consciousness is a function of the spirit brilliance which is, in turn, nothing other than a certain quantity of yang qi accumulated in the heart and nourished by the blood and essence. Opiates achieve their sedation by scattering or deconstructing the spirit brilliance. That being said, could a strongly scattering and dispersing exterior-resolver also be used to treat allergic rhinitis and allergice dermatoses according to the prescriptive logic of CM? Most definitely so. Acrid exterior-resolvers are routinely used in CM to treat both allergic rhinitis and allergic dermatoses (with one of the most common allergic deramtological complaint being urticaria or hives). The active stage of allergic rhinitis and the active stage of allergic dermatoses are both considered exterior pattern conditions, meaning not necessarily that they are caused by an externally contracted evil but are manifesting in the exterior (in Chinese, external and exterior are different words and have different meanings and imlications). In the case of allergic rhinitis, there is the assumption that there is an externally contracted wind evil (meaning some useen airborne pathogen). In the case of allergic dermatoses, there may or may not be an externally contracted wind evil, but the fact that symptoms appear in the exterior means that the disease manifests and exterior pattern.Ok, are any exterior-resolvers ever used in CM to treat nausea and vomiting? Yes, Chai Hu, Sheng Jiang, Zi Su Ye, and Ge Gen are all exterior-resolvers which can be used to treat nausea and vomiting. This is because all nausea and vomiting involves upward counterflow of the stomach qi no matter what its other disease mechanims, and exterior-resolving medicinals and qi-rectifying medicinals are often used interchangeably to rectfy the qi, thus downbearing counterflow and harmonizing the stomach. So, within CM, it there are other medicinals which are used to both resolve the exterior and rectify the qi and thereby treat allergic rhinitis, allergic dermatoses, and nausea and vomiting. Therefore, provisionally, I think we can hypothesize that diphendydramine is a very strong acrid, exterior-resolver. I say strong because it causes marked sedation in 50% of those who take it at recommeneded dosages. However, we now must see if that description would account for all its known adverse reactions and any effects potentized by other combinations or factors.What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For that we'd need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves. Parkinson's includes tremors but more than tremors. For instance, there is rigidity, hypokinesia, and muscular aching. Hypothetically, it is easy to see how an acrid exterior-resolver might positively affect rigidity and muscular aching since there is very little difference between exterior-resolver and wind-treating medicinals in CM and these two classes of meds are often used interchangeably. In any case, my sources do not specify what PD symptoms diphenhydramine benefits, and, until we know those, anything we say is complete, unsupported conjecture.The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side effects of diphenhydramine are (according to Dr. Long): drowsiness,a sense of weakness, dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and constipation. Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid, exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. Drowsiness and lack of strength are due to scattering and dispersal of the qi. A dry nose, mouth, and throat and constipation may be due to damage of fluids. In addition, constipation might be a combination of both fluid damage and dispsersal of lung qi due to the interior-exterior relationship of the lungs and large intestine in CM.More serious adverse reactions include skin rash and hives, headache, dizziness, inability to concentrate, nervousness, blurred or double vision, and difficult urination. Can a strong acrid exterior-resolver treat hives in one person but cause them in another? According to CM, the answer is yes. If a person has less blood, damage to fluids may result in damage to blood (blood and fluids share a common source). In that case, blood may fail to control the qi which may stir frenetically and counterflow upward and outward, thus creating blood vacuity-internal wind hives. How about headache? Yes, again, a strong acrid, exterior-resolver may damage yin, thus leading to failure of yin in its control of yang. If yang counterflows upward, viola, headache, AND dizziness. How about nervousness? Yes again. If an acrid, exterior-resolver damages yin and yin fails to control yang and yang stirs frenetically, there may be nervous agitation and restlessness. Lack of conctentration? This may be due to either or some combination of scattered qi not constructing the spirit or yin and blood not nourishing the spirit. Both may be a side effect of the use of a very strong acrid exterior-resolver. Double vision and blurred vision are mostly due to liver blood vacuity, and we know that strong acrid exterior-resolvers may damage the blood. That leaves difficult urination or prostatism. One of the contraindications of Benadryl is prostatic hypertrophy. In CM, prostatic hypertrophy is usually due to a combination of blood stasis and phlegm obstructing the free flow of urine and qi vacuity failing to empower the discharge of urine. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver disperse so much qi that there was not enough left to push the urine out of the body? If it were strong enough to scatter the spirit qi and cause sedation, I would say yes. So once again, all the more serious adverse reactions of diphgenhydramine can be explained by seeing this med as a strong acrid exterior-resolver.What about even more serious adverse reactions? Leukopenia and platelet destruction. Leukopenia manifests as weakened cellular immunity with fever, sore throat, and infections. Fever and sore throat may be due to qi vacuity, yin vacuity, and/or contraction of external evils. If the defensive qi is scattered, this leads to nonsecuring of the exterior with easy contraction of external evils. Platelet destruction leads to abnormal bleeding or bruising. This is also typically due to qi vacuity not managing or containing the blood within its vessels. Therefore, it is possible for a strongly qi-scattering and yin-damaging medicinal to cause these reactions in patients whose qi and/or yin is not strong and exuberant.Diphenhydramine may also shorten the menstrual cycle. This can be due either to qi vacuity not containing the blood or yin vacuity giving rise to vacuity heat. Diphenhydramine may activate latent epilepsy, galucoma, and prostatism. We've already dealt with prostatism above. Epilepsy is usually associated with stirring wind, and we've seen that damage to yin may lead to loss of control over the yang qi which may then stir frenetically or hyperactively. Glaucoma is reframed into clear-eyed blindness in Chinese medicine, and the main cause is blood vacuity. We've already seen above how a strong acrid exterior-resolver may damage yin-blood-fluids and lead to vision problems.One of the cautions recorded for using this drug is in case of bronchial asthma, bronchitis, or pneumonia since this med may thicken mucus and make it more diffciult to expectorate. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver do that? Yes, if not combined with phlegm-transforming, fluid-engendering meds.This drug should be used with caution and reduced dosage in infants and children because it can easily cause adverse reactions on the brain and nervous system. In CM we say, infants have a pure yang body. This means that yin and yang are not well mutually rooted intercontrolling in infants. Therefore, yang easily becomes hyperactive, and a strong acrid exterior-resolver could definitely aggravate such a tendency.Similarly, this drug may cause drowsiness, dizziness, unstreadiness and impairment in thinking, judgement, and memory in those over 60. However, the Nei Jing says that, at 40 years, yin is automatically half. Further, due to decline in spleen function, there is less qi. Thus the above reactions are due to scattering of the qi and damage to yin in those with less qi and yin due to age.What happens from an overdose of diphenhydramine? Marked drowsiness, confusion, incoordination, unsteadiness, muscle tremors, stupor, coma, seizures, fever, flushed face, weak pulse, shallow breathing. Anything that scattering of qi and damage to yin wouldn't produce? No.We also know that the combination diphenhydramine and alcohol can cause rapid and marked sedation. We know that alcohol is also acrid and very scattering, dispersing, and moving. So it makes sense that putting two scattering, dispersing, moving meds together would cause even more marked and quicker sedation, i.e., deconstruction of the spirit qi. Similarly, diphenhydramine may potentize all drugs which a sedative action (which, please be careful here, is not the same as spirit-quieting. Gotta be sure not to mix apples and oranges).At this point in time, I feel pretty comfortable hypothesizing that diphenhydramine is an acrid, exterior-resolving medicinal according to the logic of Chinese medicine. Now, to prove, this, we would need to go into the clinic and see if there is more marked drowsiness and lack of strength in patients who present a qi vacuity pattern who take this med, or if patients with a yin vacuity pattern who take this drug tend to have more nervousness and agitation. My limited experience with this drug, both as a patient and as a practitioner suggests that this is the case. However, we would need a certain sample size before we could come to any justifiable conclusions.Nevertheless, hopefully, this should help explain how I think one can begin hypothesizing about the CM description of Western meds. Maybe someday there'll be a PDR with these kinds of descriptions in them. Till then, we will have to figure these things out for themselves. However, this does require knowing Chinese medicine really well in the correct words.Good luck,Bob , "1" <@i...> wrote:> , "fbernall" <fbernall@a...> wrote:> > > > > Of the above three, which would you say has been affected by the > > astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) effects of > > benadryl?> > > > Fernando> > I think these all could be the results of over astringencyChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 27, 2001 , " pemachophel2001 " < pemachophel2001> wrote: I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply > diphendydramine. No, you were right. According to my drug guide, Benadryl is diphendydramine and diphendydramine alone. according to parkinson's.org: Some patients are able to achieve a more stable sleep pattern by using diphenhydramine 25 - 50 mg. at bedtime. Available as Benadryl® and many generic brands, this medication is available over-the-counter, and may also help reduce tremor and drooling in some patients. > > In CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective sedatives, > achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering > exterior-resolvers. I didn't know that. Ying su ke is an astringent. What opiates do you refer to? Are there any other opiates that are used in the materia medica? Are any other exterior resolvers known for having a pronounced sedative effect? > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For that we'd > need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves. > > The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side effects of > diphenhydramine are dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and constipat= ion. > Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid, > exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. could also be due to astringency Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > , " pemachophel2001 " < > pemachophel2001> wrote: > > I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply > > diphendydramine. > > No, you were right. According to my drug guide, Benadryl is > diphendydramine and diphendydramine alone. according to > parkinson's.org: That's right. It seems that in my lack of knowledge on this rx, I chose " Benadryl® Severe Allergy and Sinus Headache® " which does contain the before mentioned ingredients (a formula). Sorry about that. Fernando Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 Alon, Yes. That's pretty interesting. So that fact seems to support my working hypothesis as well. Bob , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Nice exercise Bob. > This would also explain why wu wei zi helps the sideeffects > Alon > > - > pemachophel2001 > > Thursday, December 27, 2001 12:28 PM > Re: Benadryl > > > Having just returned from Xmas in Texas (an experience of it's own), > I'm going to jump in here instead of responding to each of the points > and queries made in this thread. > > First of all, Fernando, I think you've made a very interesting > discovery, i.e., that Benadryl is a formula, not a single medicinal. I > didn't know this at the time I suggested this as an example. From the > source I looked at (James W. Long's The Essential Guide to > Prescription Drugs), I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply > diphendydramine. My mistake. What this means is that, in order to work > out a CM description of this medicine, we must first work out the CM > descriptions of pseudoephedrine, acetaminophen, AND diphenhydramine. > > The good news is that I don't think anyone should have any big > difficulty with assuming that pseudoephedrine is an upbearing, > out-thrusting exterior-resolver analogous to Ma Huang. Not only does > it resolve the exterior, it also diffuses the lungs. However, like Ma > Huang, on the down side, its scattering and diffusing nature may also > damage both qi and yin. Since yang is nothing other than a lot of qi > and yin and yang are mutually rooted, damage qi and yin enough and you > could also damage yang, depending on the patient's habitual bodily > (constitution) and other contributing factors. > > Acetaminophen is also relatively easy to deal with in CM terms. As > already pointed out, its two main uses are as an analgesic and > anti-inflammatory. The single key statement about pain is that, if > there is pain, there is no free flow. Based on this " fact, " all > analgesics must, ipso facto according to the logic of CM, somehow > restore free flow. The main categories of Chinese meds which restore > free flow of the qi and blood in the body via a vis pain are A) > exterior-resolvers, B) qi-rectifiers, C) blood-quickeners, and > D)wind-treating medicinals. So acetaminophen should probably be > classified as one of these types of Chinese meds. Now let's look at > inflammation. Inflammation may or may not be detectable via the > four examinations. In cases where it is not detectable by one of the > four examinations, such as in many cases of tennis elbow, it is > typically reframed into pain. In that case, we're back to pain again. > In cases where there is detectable heat in a CM sense, we need to look > at all the different ways of eliminating heat in CM. Heat may be > cleared using bitter, cold medicinals. However, it may also be > out-thrust when that heat is depressive in nature (as is heat due to > traumatic injury). Yet another method is to seep dampness to " lead > yang into the the yin tract. " > > I don't think we can make a case for acetaminophen being a bitter, > cold heat-clearing medicinal if we look at all its clinical uses, > adverse reactions, and its reactions with other substances and > situations. That leaves the probability that it both stops pain and > clears heat by somehow freeing the flow and resolving depression. > (Here I do not mean necessarily liver depression. Here I'm using the > word the way Zhu Dan-xi used it.) > > That brings us back again to the same four categories of Chinese > medicines suggested above. Since acetaminophen achieves an effect on > pains other than that which are characteristic of blood > stasis, my guess at the moment is that it is not simply a > blood-quickening med. Anything that moves the qi strongly will, at > least to some extent, also move the blood. This is based on the > statement, the qi moves the blood; if the qi moves, the blood moves. > If acetaminophen is a blood-quickener, it is a blood-quickener like > Chuan Xiong and Yuan Hu Suo which move the qi within the blood. What > this really means is that these two meds straddle the fence between > qi-rectifiers and blood-quickeners. However, don't forget that an > exterior-resolver such as Bai Zhi is also a very effective > pain-stopping medicinal which is an exterior-resolver. So this med > could be an exterior-resolver. > > Because of time and the necessity of seeing patients and running Blue > Poppy, I'm going to leave acetaminophen here at this point. Instead of > actually working out its CM description, I'm going to move onto > diphenhydramine. We're in the ballpark with acetaminophen in any case. > What we know is that it is strongly moving in nature, and strongly > moving medicinals tend to be acrid in terms of taste. Also, strong > moving medicinals are also attacking medicinal according to the logic > of CM. This means they damage the righteous. Specifically, what this > mostly means is that they scatter the qi (and, therefore, yang) and > may damage yin (and, therefore, blood and body fluids). > > What are the clinical applications of diphenhydramine? > > 1. Relief of allergic rhinitis > 2. Relief of allergic dermatoses > 3. Prevention & relief of motion sickness > 4. Partial relief of symptoms of Parkinson's disease > 5. Nonaddictive yet effective (i.e., strong) sedative and hypnotic > > In CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective sedatives, > achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering > exterior-resolvers. Consciousness is a function of the spirit > brilliance which is, in turn, nothing other than a certain quantity of > yang qi accumulated in the heart and nourished by the blood and > essence. Opiates achieve their sedation by scattering or > deconstructing the spirit brilliance. > > That being said, could a strongly scattering and dispersing > exterior-resolver also be used to treat allergic rhinitis and > allergice dermatoses according to the prescriptive logic of CM? Most > definitely so. Acrid exterior-resolvers are routinely used in CM to > treat both allergic rhinitis and allergic dermatoses (with one of the > most common allergic deramtological complaint being urticaria or > hives). The active stage of allergic rhinitis and the active stage of > allergic dermatoses are both considered exterior pattern conditions, > meaning not necessarily that they are caused by an externally > contracted evil but are manifesting in the exterior (in Chinese, > external and exterior are different words and have different meanings > and imlications). In the case of allergic rhinitis, there is the > assumption that there is an externally contracted wind evil (meaning > some useen airborne pathogen). In the case of allergic dermatoses, > there may or may not be an externally contracted wind evil, but the > fact that symptoms appear in the exterior means that the disease > manifests and exterior pattern. > > Ok, are any exterior-resolvers ever used in CM to treat nausea and > vomiting? Yes, Chai Hu, Sheng Jiang, Zi Su Ye, and Ge Gen are all > exterior-resolvers which can be used to treat nausea and vomiting. > This is because all nausea and vomiting involves upward counterflow of > the stomach qi no matter what its other disease mechanims, and > exterior-resolving medicinals and qi-rectifying medicinals are often > used interchangeably to rectfy the qi, thus downbearing counterflow > and harmonizing the stomach. So, within CM, it there are other > medicinals which are used to both resolve the exterior and rectify the > qi and thereby treat allergic rhinitis, allergic dermatoses, and > nausea and vomiting. Therefore, provisionally, I think we can > hypothesize that diphendydramine is a very strong acrid, > exterior-resolver. I say strong because it causes marked sedation in > 50% of those who take it at recommeneded dosages. However, we now must > see if that description would account for all its known adverse > reactions and any effects potentized by other combinations or factors. > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For that we'd > need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves. > Parkinson's includes tremors but more than tremors. For instance, > there is rigidity, hypokinesia, and muscular aching. Hypothetically, > it is easy to see how an acrid exterior-resolver might positively > affect rigidity and muscular aching since there is very little > difference between exterior-resolver and wind-treating medicinals in > CM and these two classes of meds are often used interchangeably. In > any case, my sources do not specify what PD symptoms diphenhydramine > benefits, and, until we know those, anything we say is complete, > unsupported conjecture. > > The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side effects of > diphenhydramine are (according to Dr. Long): drowsiness,a sense of > weakness, dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and constipation. > Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid, > exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. Drowsiness and lack of > strength are due to scattering and dispersal of the qi. A dry nose, > mouth, and throat and constipation may be due to damage of fluids. In > addition, constipation might be a combination of both fluid damage and > dispsersal of lung qi due to the interior-exterior relationship of the > lungs and large intestine in CM. > > More serious adverse reactions include skin rash and hives, headache, > dizziness, inability to concentrate, nervousness, blurred or double > vision, and difficult urination. Can a strong acrid exterior-resolver > treat hives in one person but cause them in another? According to CM, > the answer is yes. If a person has less blood, damage to fluids may > result in damage to blood (blood and fluids share a common source). In > that case, blood may fail to control the qi which may stir > frenetically and counterflow upward and outward, thus creating blood > vacuity-internal wind hives. How about headache? Yes, again, a strong > acrid, exterior-resolver may damage yin, thus leading to failure of > yin in its control of yang. If yang counterflows upward, viola, > headache, AND dizziness. How about nervousness? Yes again. If an > acrid, exterior-resolver damages yin and yin fails to control yang and > yang stirs frenetically, there may be nervous agitation and > restlessness. Lack of conctentration? This may be due to either or > some combination of scattered qi not constructing the spirit or yin > and blood not nourishing the spirit. Both may be a side effect of the > use of a very strong acrid exterior-resolver. Double vision and > blurred vision are mostly due to liver blood vacuity, and we know that > strong acrid exterior-resolvers may damage the blood. That leaves > difficult urination or prostatism. One of the contraindications of > Benadryl is prostatic hypertrophy. In CM, prostatic hypertrophy is > usually due to a combination of blood stasis and phlegm obstructing > the free flow of urine and qi vacuity failing to empower the discharge > of urine. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver disperse so much qi > that there was not enough left to push the urine out of the body? If > it were strong enough to scatter the spirit qi and cause sedation, I > would say yes. So once again, all the more serious adverse reactions > of diphgenhydramine can be explained by seeing this med as a strong > acrid exterior-resolver. > > What about even more serious adverse reactions? Leukopenia and > platelet destruction. Leukopenia manifests as weakened cellular > immunity with fever, sore throat, and infections. Fever and sore > throat may be due to qi vacuity, yin vacuity, and/or contraction of > external evils. If the defensive qi is scattered, this leads to > nonsecuring of the exterior with easy contraction of external evils. > Platelet destruction leads to abnormal bleeding or bruising. This is > also typically due to qi vacuity not managing or containing the blood > within its vessels. Therefore, it is possible for a strongly > qi-scattering and yin-damaging medicinal to cause these reactions in > patients whose qi and/or yin is not strong and exuberant. > > Diphenhydramine may also shorten the menstrual cycle. This can be due > either to qi vacuity not containing the blood or yin vacuity giving > rise to vacuity heat. Diphenhydramine may activate latent epilepsy, > galucoma, and prostatism. We've already dealt with prostatism above. > Epilepsy is usually associated with stirring wind, and we've seen that > damage to yin may lead to loss of control over the yang qi which may > then stir frenetically or hyperactively. Glaucoma is reframed into > clear-eyed blindness in Chinese medicine, and the main cause is blood > vacuity. We've already seen above how a strong acrid exterior-resolver > may damage yin-blood-fluids and lead to vision problems. > > One of the cautions recorded for using this drug is in case of > bronchial asthma, bronchitis, or pneumonia since this med may thicken > mucus and make it more diffciult to expectorate. Could a strong acrid > exterior-resolver do that? Yes, if not combined with > phlegm-transforming, fluid-engendering meds. > > This drug should be used with caution and reduced dosage in infants > and children because it can easily cause adverse reactions on the > brain and nervous system. In CM we say, infants have a pure yang body. > This means that yin and yang are not well mutually rooted > intercontrolling in infants. Therefore, yang easily becomes > hyperactive, and a strong acrid exterior-resolver could definitely > aggravate such a tendency. > > Similarly, this drug may cause drowsiness, dizziness, unstreadiness > and impairment in thinking, judgement, and memory in those over 60. > However, the Nei Jing says that, at 40 years, yin is automatically > half. Further, due to decline in spleen function, there is less qi. > Thus the above reactions are due to scattering of the qi and damage to > yin in those with less qi and yin due to age. > > What happens from an overdose of diphenhydramine? Marked drowsiness, > confusion, incoordination, unsteadiness, muscle tremors, stupor, coma, > seizures, fever, flushed face, weak pulse, shallow breathing. Anything > that scattering of qi and damage to yin wouldn't produce? No. > > We also know that the combination diphenhydramine and alcohol can > cause rapid and marked sedation. We know that alcohol is also acrid > and very scattering, dispersing, and moving. So it makes sense that > putting two scattering, dispersing, moving meds together would cause > even more marked and quicker sedation, i.e., deconstruction of the > spirit qi. Similarly, diphenhydramine may potentize all drugs which a > sedative action (which, please be careful here, is not the same as > spirit-quieting. Gotta be sure not to mix apples and oranges). > > At this point in time, I feel pretty comfortable hypothesizing that > diphenhydramine is an acrid, exterior-resolving medicinal according to > the logic of Chinese medicine. Now, to prove, this, we would need to > go into the clinic and see if there is more marked drowsiness and lack > of strength in patients who present a qi vacuity pattern who take this > med, or if patients with a yin vacuity pattern who take this drug tend > to have more nervousness and agitation. My limited experience with > this drug, both as a patient and as a practitioner suggests that this > is the case. However, we would need a certain sample size before we > could come to any justifiable conclusions. > > Nevertheless, hopefully, this should help explain how I think one can > begin hypothesizing about the CM description of Western meds. Maybe > someday there'll be a PDR with these kinds of descriptions in them. > Till then, we will have to figure these things out for themselves. > However, this does require knowing Chinese medicine really well in the > correct words. > > Good luck, > > Bob > > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Of the above three, which would you say has been affected by the > > > astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) effects of > > > benadryl? > > > > > > Fernando > > > > I think these all could be the results of over astringency > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > , " pemachophel2001 " < > pemachophel2001> wrote: > > I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply > > diphendydramine. > > No, you were right. According to my drug guide, Benadryl is > diphendydramine and diphendydramine alone. according to > parkinson's.org: > > Some patients are able to achieve a more stable sleep pattern by using > diphenhydramine 25 - 50 mg. at bedtime. > Available as Benadryl® and many generic brands, this medication is > available over-the-counter, and may also help reduce tremor and > drooling in some patients. > > > > > > > In CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective sedatives, > > achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering > > exterior-resolvers. > > I didn't know that. Ying su ke is an astringent. What opiates do you > refer to? Are there any other opiates that are used in the materia > medica? Are any other exterior resolvers known for having a pronounced > sedative effect? -- I believe published an article on the CM description of opiates in the Blue Poppy On-line Journal. If not, then the article is posted under the Free Articles section at www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com. This is not my description. What I published is a translation of a recent Chinese journal article. The article simply lumped all opiates together as having basically the same CM description (opium, heroin, morphine). One has to be careful not to confuse Ying Su Ke as a CM medicinal and opiates. As a medicinal substance, I suppose opium would be described in Latin pharmacological nomenclature as Resina Papaveris Somniferi (not Pericarpium Papaveris Somniferi). Then heroin, morphine, etc. would be described as refined extracts of that resin. As Philippe Sionneau points out in Dui Yao, different parts of a single herb or different preparations of even the same part of a single herb are different medicinals in CM. > > > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For that we'd > > need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves. > > > > The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side effects of > > diphenhydramine are dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and constipat= > ion. > > Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid, > > exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. > > could also be due to astringency -- strong astringency definitely does not account for all the intended therapeutic effects nor all the adverse reactions and combined effects of diphenhydramine. In creating a CM description, you've got to hunt for the single effect that accounts for all the information. For instance, while we do routinely treat allergic dermatoses with acrid exterior-resolveing meds, we do not routinely treat that kind of condition with securing and astringing meds. Nor do we treat any of the symptoms of PD with securing and astringing. Likewise, securing and astringing is not used for the relief of nausea. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 Fernando, No problem. We got a little more bang for our buck. Now we have hypotheses about three Western meds. Perhaps someone would care to continue on with acetaminophen to work out a more specific hypothesis. Bob , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > > , " pemachophel2001 " < > > pemachophel2001> wrote: > > > > I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply > > > diphendydramine. > > > > No, you were right. According to my drug guide, Benadryl is > > diphendydramine and diphendydramine alone. according to > > parkinson's.org: > > That's right. It seems that in my lack of knowledge on this rx, I > chose " Benadryl® Severe Allergy and Sinus Headache® " which does > contain the before mentioned ingredients (a formula). Sorry about > that. > > Fernando Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 - diphendydramine >>>Bob, Yes it does however, I was wandering why would such a strong spicy surface releaving medication does not cause sweating and why it is more common to find a thick yellow tongue coat than a real Yin Def tongue? Alon pemachophel2001 Friday, December 28, 2001 9:48 AM Re: Benadryl Alon,Yes. That's pretty interesting. So that fact seems to support my working hypothesis as well.Bob, "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Nice exercise Bob.> This would also explain why wu wei zi helps the sideeffects> Alon> > - > pemachophel2001 > > Thursday, December 27, 2001 12:28 PM> Re: Benadryl> > > Having just returned from Xmas in Texas (an experience of it's own), > I'm going to jump in here instead of responding to each of the points > and queries made in this thread.> > First of all, Fernando, I think you've made a very interesting > discovery, i.e., that Benadryl is a formula, not a single medicinal. I > didn't know this at the time I suggested this as an example. From the > source I looked at (James W. Long's The Essential Guide to > Prescription Drugs), I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply > diphendydramine. My mistake. What this means is that, in order to work > out a CM description of this medicine, we must first work out the CM > descriptions of pseudoephedrine, acetaminophen, AND diphenhydramine.> > The good news is that I don't think anyone should have any big > difficulty with assuming that pseudoephedrine is an upbearing, > out-thrusting exterior-resolver analogous to Ma Huang. Not only does > it resolve the exterior, it also diffuses the lungs. However, like Ma > Huang, on the down side, its scattering and diffusing nature may also > damage both qi and yin. Since yang is nothing other than a lot of qi > and yin and yang are mutually rooted, damage qi and yin enough and you > could also damage yang, depending on the patient's habitual bodily > (constitution) and other contributing factors.> > Acetaminophen is also relatively easy to deal with in CM terms. As > already pointed out, its two main uses are as an analgesic and > anti-inflammatory. The single key statement about pain is that, if > there is pain, there is no free flow. Based on this "fact," all > analgesics must, ipso facto according to the logic of CM, somehow > restore free flow. The main categories of Chinese meds which restore > free flow of the qi and blood in the body via a vis pain are A) > exterior-resolvers, B) qi-rectifiers, C) blood-quickeners, and > D)wind-treating medicinals. So acetaminophen should probably be > classified as one of these types of Chinese meds. Now let's look at > inflammation. Inflammation may or may not be detectable via the > four examinations. In cases where it is not detectable by one of the > four examinations, such as in many cases of tennis elbow, it is > typically reframed into pain. In that case, we're back to pain again. > In cases where there is detectable heat in a CM sense, we need to look > at all the different ways of eliminating heat in CM. Heat may be > cleared using bitter, cold medicinals. However, it may also be > out-thrust when that heat is depressive in nature (as is heat due to > traumatic injury). Yet another method is to seep dampness to "lead > yang into the the yin tract." > > I don't think we can make a case for acetaminophen being a bitter, > cold heat-clearing medicinal if we look at all its clinical uses, > adverse reactions, and its reactions with other substances and > situations. That leaves the probability that it both stops pain and > clears heat by somehow freeing the flow and resolving depression. > (Here I do not mean necessarily liver depression. Here I'm using the > word the way Zhu Dan-xi used it.) > > That brings us back again to the same four categories of Chinese > medicines suggested above. Since acetaminophen achieves an effect on > pains other than that which are characteristic of blood > stasis, my guess at the moment is that it is not simply a > blood-quickening med. Anything that moves the qi strongly will, at > least to some extent, also move the blood. This is based on the > statement, the qi moves the blood; if the qi moves, the blood moves. > If acetaminophen is a blood-quickener, it is a blood-quickener like > Chuan Xiong and Yuan Hu Suo which move the qi within the blood. What > this really means is that these two meds straddle the fence between > qi-rectifiers and blood-quickeners. However, don't forget that an > exterior-resolver such as Bai Zhi is also a very effective > pain-stopping medicinal which is an exterior-resolver. So this med > could be an exterior-resolver. > > Because of time and the necessity of seeing patients and running Blue > Poppy, I'm going to leave acetaminophen here at this point. Instead of > actually working out its CM description, I'm going to move onto > diphenhydramine. We're in the ballpark with acetaminophen in any case. > What we know is that it is strongly moving in nature, and strongly > moving medicinals tend to be acrid in terms of taste. Also, strong > moving medicinals are also attacking medicinal according to the logic > of CM. This means they damage the righteous. Specifically, what this > mostly means is that they scatter the qi (and, therefore, yang) and > may damage yin (and, therefore, blood and body fluids). > > What are the clinical applications of diphenhydramine?> > 1. Relief of allergic rhinitis> 2. Relief of allergic dermatoses> 3. Prevention & relief of motion sickness> 4. Partial relief of symptoms of Parkinson's disease> 5. Nonaddictive yet effective (i.e., strong) sedative and hypnotic> > In CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective sedatives, > achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering > exterior-resolvers. Consciousness is a function of the spirit > brilliance which is, in turn, nothing other than a certain quantity of > yang qi accumulated in the heart and nourished by the blood and > essence. Opiates achieve their sedation by scattering or > deconstructing the spirit brilliance. > > That being said, could a strongly scattering and dispersing > exterior-resolver also be used to treat allergic rhinitis and > allergice dermatoses according to the prescriptive logic of CM? Most > definitely so. Acrid exterior-resolvers are routinely used in CM to > treat both allergic rhinitis and allergic dermatoses (with one of the > most common allergic deramtological complaint being urticaria or > hives). The active stage of allergic rhinitis and the active stage of > allergic dermatoses are both considered exterior pattern conditions, > meaning not necessarily that they are caused by an externally > contracted evil but are manifesting in the exterior (in Chinese, > external and exterior are different words and have different meanings > and imlications). In the case of allergic rhinitis, there is the > assumption that there is an externally contracted wind evil (meaning > some useen airborne pathogen). In the case of allergic dermatoses, > there may or may not be an externally contracted wind evil, but the > fact that symptoms appear in the exterior means that the disease > manifests and exterior pattern.> > Ok, are any exterior-resolvers ever used in CM to treat nausea and > vomiting? Yes, Chai Hu, Sheng Jiang, Zi Su Ye, and Ge Gen are all > exterior-resolvers which can be used to treat nausea and vomiting. > This is because all nausea and vomiting involves upward counterflow of > the stomach qi no matter what its other disease mechanims, and > exterior-resolving medicinals and qi-rectifying medicinals are often > used interchangeably to rectfy the qi, thus downbearing counterflow > and harmonizing the stomach. So, within CM, it there are other > medicinals which are used to both resolve the exterior and rectify the > qi and thereby treat allergic rhinitis, allergic dermatoses, and > nausea and vomiting. Therefore, provisionally, I think we can > hypothesize that diphendydramine is a very strong acrid, > exterior-resolver. I say strong because it causes marked sedation in > 50% of those who take it at recommeneded dosages. However, we now must > see if that description would account for all its known adverse > reactions and any effects potentized by other combinations or factors.> > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For that we'd > need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves. > Parkinson's includes tremors but more than tremors. For instance, > there is rigidity, hypokinesia, and muscular aching. Hypothetically, > it is easy to see how an acrid exterior-resolver might positively > affect rigidity and muscular aching since there is very little > difference between exterior-resolver and wind-treating medicinals in > CM and these two classes of meds are often used interchangeably. In > any case, my sources do not specify what PD symptoms diphenhydramine > benefits, and, until we know those, anything we say is complete, > unsupported conjecture.> > The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side effects of > diphenhydramine are (according to Dr. Long): drowsiness,a sense of > weakness, dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and constipation. > Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid, > exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. Drowsiness and lack of > strength are due to scattering and dispersal of the qi. A dry nose, > mouth, and throat and constipation may be due to damage of fluids. In > addition, constipation might be a combination of both fluid damage and > dispsersal of lung qi due to the interior-exterior relationship of the > lungs and large intestine in CM.> > More serious adverse reactions include skin rash and hives, headache, > dizziness, inability to concentrate, nervousness, blurred or double > vision, and difficult urination. Can a strong acrid exterior-resolver > treat hives in one person but cause them in another? According to CM, > the answer is yes. If a person has less blood, damage to fluids may > result in damage to blood (blood and fluids share a common source). In > that case, blood may fail to control the qi which may stir > frenetically and counterflow upward and outward, thus creating blood > vacuity-internal wind hives. How about headache? Yes, again, a strong > acrid, exterior-resolver may damage yin, thus leading to failure of > yin in its control of yang. If yang counterflows upward, viola, > headache, AND dizziness. How about nervousness? Yes again. If an > acrid, exterior-resolver damages yin and yin fails to control yang and > yang stirs frenetically, there may be nervous agitation and > restlessness. Lack of conctentration? This may be due to either or > some combination of scattered qi not constructing the spirit or yin > and blood not nourishing the spirit. Both may be a side effect of the > use of a very strong acrid exterior-resolver. Double vision and > blurred vision are mostly due to liver blood vacuity, and we know that > strong acrid exterior-resolvers may damage the blood. That leaves > difficult urination or prostatism. One of the contraindications of > Benadryl is prostatic hypertrophy. In CM, prostatic hypertrophy is > usually due to a combination of blood stasis and phlegm obstructing > the free flow of urine and qi vacuity failing to empower the discharge > of urine. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver disperse so much qi > that there was not enough left to push the urine out of the body? If > it were strong enough to scatter the spirit qi and cause sedation, I > would say yes. So once again, all the more serious adverse reactions > of diphgenhydramine can be explained by seeing this med as a strong > acrid exterior-resolver.> > What about even more serious adverse reactions? Leukopenia and > platelet destruction. Leukopenia manifests as weakened cellular > immunity with fever, sore throat, and infections. Fever and sore > throat may be due to qi vacuity, yin vacuity, and/or contraction of > external evils. If the defensive qi is scattered, this leads to > nonsecuring of the exterior with easy contraction of external evils. > Platelet destruction leads to abnormal bleeding or bruising. This is > also typically due to qi vacuity not managing or containing the blood > within its vessels. Therefore, it is possible for a strongly > qi-scattering and yin-damaging medicinal to cause these reactions in > patients whose qi and/or yin is not strong and exuberant.> > Diphenhydramine may also shorten the menstrual cycle. This can be due > either to qi vacuity not containing the blood or yin vacuity giving > rise to vacuity heat. Diphenhydramine may activate latent epilepsy, > galucoma, and prostatism. We've already dealt with prostatism above. > Epilepsy is usually associated with stirring wind, and we've seen that > damage to yin may lead to loss of control over the yang qi which may > then stir frenetically or hyperactively. Glaucoma is reframed into > clear-eyed blindness in Chinese medicine, and the main cause is blood > vacuity. We've already seen above how a strong acrid exterior-resolver > may damage yin-blood-fluids and lead to vision problems.> > One of the cautions recorded for using this drug is in case of > bronchial asthma, bronchitis, or pneumonia since this med may thicken > mucus and make it more diffciult to expectorate. Could a strong acrid > exterior-resolver do that? Yes, if not combined with > phlegm-transforming, fluid-engendering meds.> > This drug should be used with caution and reduced dosage in infants > and children because it can easily cause adverse reactions on the > brain and nervous system. In CM we say, infants have a pure yang body. > This means that yin and yang are not well mutually rooted > intercontrolling in infants. Therefore, yang easily becomes > hyperactive, and a strong acrid exterior-resolver could definitely > aggravate such a tendency.> > Similarly, this drug may cause drowsiness, dizziness, unstreadiness > and impairment in thinking, judgement, and memory in those over 60. > However, the Nei Jing says that, at 40 years, yin is automatically > half. Further, due to decline in spleen function, there is less qi. > Thus the above reactions are due to scattering of the qi and damage to > yin in those with less qi and yin due to age.> > What happens from an overdose of diphenhydramine? Marked drowsiness, > confusion, incoordination, unsteadiness, muscle tremors, stupor, coma, > seizures, fever, flushed face, weak pulse, shallow breathing. Anything > that scattering of qi and damage to yin wouldn't produce? No.> > We also know that the combination diphenhydramine and alcohol can > cause rapid and marked sedation. We know that alcohol is also acrid > and very scattering, dispersing, and moving. So it makes sense that > putting two scattering, dispersing, moving meds together would cause > even more marked and quicker sedation, i.e., deconstruction of the > spirit qi. Similarly, diphenhydramine may potentize all drugs which a > sedative action (which, please be careful here, is not the same as > spirit-quieting. Gotta be sure not to mix apples and oranges).> > At this point in time, I feel pretty comfortable hypothesizing that > diphenhydramine is an acrid, exterior-resolving medicinal according to > the logic of Chinese medicine. Now, to prove, this, we would need to > go into the clinic and see if there is more marked drowsiness and lack > of strength in patients who present a qi vacuity pattern who take this > med, or if patients with a yin vacuity pattern who take this drug tend > to have more nervousness and agitation. My limited experience with > this drug, both as a patient and as a practitioner suggests that this > is the case. However, we would need a certain sample size before we > could come to any justifiable conclusions.> > Nevertheless, hopefully, this should help explain how I think one can > begin hypothesizing about the CM description of Western meds. Maybe > someday there'll be a PDR with these kinds of descriptions in them. > Till then, we will have to figure these things out for themselves. > However, this does require knowing Chinese medicine really well in the > correct words.> > Good luck,> > Bob > > , "1" <@i...> wrote:> > , "fbernall" <fbernall@a...> wrote:> > > > > > > > Of the above three, which would you say has been affected by the > > > astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) effects of > > > benadryl?> > > > > > Fernando> > > > I think these all could be the results of over astringency> > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 , " pemachophel2001 " < pemachophel2001> wrote: > > -- I believe published an article on the CM description of opiates in > the Blue Poppy On-line Journal. If not, then the article is posted > under the Free Articles section at www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com. > This is not my description. What I published is a translation of a > recent Chinese journal article. The article simply lumped all opiates > together as having basically the same CM description (opium, heroin, > morphine). in addition to being warm and blood moving, they are also listed in this article as being sour and having astringent properties. Nowhere are they described as being specifically exterior releasing, though they are said to scatter qi and lift depression, two functions often seen in exterior relievers. However, they are not described as treating pain by exterior effects, but rather internal qi and blood moving effects. In addition, benadryl does not treat pain, it merely sedates. It still is not convincing to me that exterior releasing accounts for benadryl's sedative properties. Is there any other medicinal that relieves insomnia by exterior resolving? > > > > > > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? since benadryl addresses wind tremors, not aching pain due to obstruction in Parkinsons, I do not see how exterior releasing could be correct here. In fact, exterior releasing is usually contraindicated in internal wind. Is there any other medicinal that relieves tremors by exterior resolving? This med appears to extinguish wind. > > -- strong astringency definitely does not account for all the > intended therapeutic effects nor all the adverse reactions and > combined effects of diphenhydramine. In creating a CM description, > you've got to hunt for the single effect that accounts for all the > information. I do not understand this contention,either. Medicinals have multiple actions that account for their effects. For example, mu li exerts some of its effects by astringency and others by heavy settling. Most herbs have 2 or more functions? Why are you saying we need to identify one mechanism. Even your example of opiates is indicated in the article you reference as both moving in the vessels and astringent in the yangming. For instance, while we do routinely treat allergic > dermatoses with acrid exterior-resolveing meds, we do not > routinely treat that kind of condition with securing and astringing > meds. I grant that as a hole in my hypothesis, but I find yours to be unconvincing, as well. Nor do we treat any of the symptoms of PD with securing and > astringing. but we do use heavy settling and several meds have both heavy settling and astringing effects (mu li, long gu) Likewise, securing and astringing is not used for the > relief of nausea. however, at least one astringent herb affects nausea via warming the stomach (rou dou kou). I am not comfortable with my description of benadryl, but I am equally uncomfortable with making any clinical decisions on the assumption that it relieves the exterior. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 Alon, In my experience, most exterior-resolvers do not actually cause sensible perspiration unless used specifically for the purpose of " breaking a fever " in the case of an exterior pattern. As for the thick, yellow tongue fur you have observed, that is interesting. The questions I would need answered before even venturing a guess here would be: 1. How many patients are we talking about (i.e., what's your sample size)? 2. What were these particular patients' A) bodily constitution, B) sex, C) age, D) conditions for which they were seeking treatment, and E) Chinese medical patterns? 3. What other therapies were they concomitantly using? 4. What were their diets? Actually, even before I hear your answers to these questions, I will suggest one possible hypothesis. As I suggested, the acrid, strongly scattering nature of diphenhydramine can A) scatter the qi and B) damage yin. Since the lung qi is rooted in the spleen qi, strongly draining the lung qi might result in damaging the spleen qi. If the spleen qi was too weak to move and transform water and grains, these might accumulate and transform into food stagnation. Since stagnant food impedes the free flow of yang qi, it tends to cause or aggravate qi stagnation. If such qi stagnation transforms into depressive heat, then one could get thick, yellow fur. Another scenario might be damage to yin fluids of the lungs and large intestine with acumulation and binding of the stools. This could also result in thick, yellow fur. Since there are at least two scenarios that I can think of for a strongly acrid exterior-resolver resulting in thick, yellow tongue fur, we would need to know specifically about the patients in which you saw these twongue changes after having taken Benadryl. Also, in a work on tongue changes due to Western medical drugs, I can find no reference to diphenhydramine causing any thickening or yellowing of the tongue fur. This suggests that such changes you have observed are idiosyncratic. What my sources do say is that Benadryl causes xerostomia, dryness of the mouth, and I think we've adequately accounted for that. Bob , " Ruth Goldenberg " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > - > diphendydramine > >>>Bob, > Yes it does however, I was wandering why would such a strong spicy surface releaving medication does not cause sweating and why it is more common to find a thick yellow tongue coat than a real Yin Def tongue? > Alon > > pemachophel2001 > > Friday, December 28, 2001 9:48 AM > Re: Benadryl > > > Alon, > > Yes. That's pretty interesting. So that fact seems to support my > working hypothesis as well. > > Bob > > , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > Nice exercise Bob. > > This would also explain why wu wei zi helps the sideeffects > > Alon > > > > - > > pemachophel2001 > > > > Thursday, December 27, 2001 12:28 PM > > Re: Benadryl > > > > > > Having just returned from Xmas in Texas (an experience of it's > own), > > I'm going to jump in here instead of responding to each of the > points > > and queries made in this thread. > > > > First of all, Fernando, I think you've made a very interesting > > discovery, i.e., that Benadryl is a formula, not a single > medicinal. I > > didn't know this at the time I suggested this as an example. From > the > > source I looked at (James W. Long's The Essential Guide to > > Prescription Drugs), I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply > > diphendydramine. My mistake. What this means is that, in order to > work > > out a CM description of this medicine, we must first work out the > CM > > descriptions of pseudoephedrine, acetaminophen, AND > diphenhydramine. > > > > The good news is that I don't think anyone should have any big > > difficulty with assuming that pseudoephedrine is an upbearing, > > out-thrusting exterior-resolver analogous to Ma Huang. Not only > does > > it resolve the exterior, it also diffuses the lungs. However, like > Ma > > Huang, on the down side, its scattering and diffusing nature may > also > > damage both qi and yin. Since yang is nothing other than a lot of > qi > > and yin and yang are mutually rooted, damage qi and yin enough and > you > > could also damage yang, depending on the patient's habitual bodily > > (constitution) and other contributing factors. > > > > Acetaminophen is also relatively easy to deal with in CM terms. As > > already pointed out, its two main uses are as an analgesic and > > anti-inflammatory. The single key statement about pain is that, if > > there is pain, there is no free flow. Based on this " fact, " all > > analgesics must, ipso facto according to the logic of CM, somehow > > restore free flow. The main categories of Chinese meds which > restore > > free flow of the qi and blood in the body via a vis pain are A) > > exterior-resolvers, B) qi-rectifiers, C) blood-quickeners, and > > D)wind-treating medicinals. So acetaminophen should probably be > > classified as one of these types of Chinese meds. Now let's look > at > > inflammation. Inflammation may or may not be detectable via the > > four examinations. In cases where it is not detectable by one of > the > > four examinations, such as in many cases of tennis elbow, it is > > typically reframed into pain. In that case, we're back to pain > again. > > In cases where there is detectable heat in a CM sense, we need to > look > > at all the different ways of eliminating heat in CM. Heat may be > > cleared using bitter, cold medicinals. However, it may also be > > out-thrust when that heat is depressive in nature (as is heat due > to > > traumatic injury). Yet another method is to seep dampness to " lead > > yang into the the yin tract. " > > > > I don't think we can make a case for acetaminophen being a bitter, > > cold heat-clearing medicinal if we look at all its clinical uses, > > adverse reactions, and its reactions with other substances and > > situations. That leaves the probability that it both stops pain > and > > clears heat by somehow freeing the flow and resolving depression. > > (Here I do not mean necessarily liver depression. Here I'm using > the > > word the way Zhu Dan-xi used it.) > > > > That brings us back again to the same four categories of Chinese > > medicines suggested above. Since acetaminophen achieves an effect > on > > pains other than that which are characteristic of blood > > stasis, my guess at the moment is that it is not simply a > > blood-quickening med. Anything that moves the qi strongly will, at > > least to some extent, also move the blood. This is based on the > > statement, the qi moves the blood; if the qi moves, the blood > moves. > > If acetaminophen is a blood-quickener, it is a blood-quickener > like > > Chuan Xiong and Yuan Hu Suo which move the qi within the blood. > What > > this really means is that these two meds straddle the fence > between > > qi-rectifiers and blood-quickeners. However, don't forget that an > > exterior-resolver such as Bai Zhi is also a very effective > > pain-stopping medicinal which is an exterior-resolver. So this med > > could be an exterior-resolver. > > > > Because of time and the necessity of seeing patients and running > Blue > > Poppy, I'm going to leave acetaminophen here at this point. > Instead of > > actually working out its CM description, I'm going to move onto > > diphenhydramine. We're in the ballpark with acetaminophen in any > case. > > What we know is that it is strongly moving in nature, and strongly > > moving medicinals tend to be acrid in terms of taste. Also, strong > > moving medicinals are also attacking medicinal according to the > logic > > of CM. This means they damage the righteous. Specifically, what > this > > mostly means is that they scatter the qi (and, therefore, yang) > and > > may damage yin (and, therefore, blood and body fluids). > > > > What are the clinical applications of diphenhydramine? > > > > 1. Relief of allergic rhinitis > > 2. Relief of allergic dermatoses > > 3. Prevention & relief of motion sickness > > 4. Partial relief of symptoms of Parkinson's disease > > 5. Nonaddictive yet effective (i.e., strong) sedative and hypnotic > > > > In CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective sedatives, > > achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering > > exterior-resolvers. Consciousness is a function of the spirit > > brilliance which is, in turn, nothing other than a certain > quantity of > > yang qi accumulated in the heart and nourished by the blood and > > essence. Opiates achieve their sedation by scattering or > > deconstructing the spirit brilliance. > > > > That being said, could a strongly scattering and dispersing > > exterior-resolver also be used to treat allergic rhinitis and > > allergice dermatoses according to the prescriptive logic of CM? > Most > > definitely so. Acrid exterior-resolvers are routinely used in CM > to > > treat both allergic rhinitis and allergic dermatoses (with one of > the > > most common allergic deramtological complaint being urticaria or > > hives). The active stage of allergic rhinitis and the active stage > of > > allergic dermatoses are both considered exterior pattern > conditions, > > meaning not necessarily that they are caused by an externally > > contracted evil but are manifesting in the exterior (in Chinese, > > external and exterior are different words and have different > meanings > > and imlications). In the case of allergic rhinitis, there is the > > assumption that there is an externally contracted wind evil > (meaning > > some useen airborne pathogen). In the case of allergic dermatoses, > > there may or may not be an externally contracted wind evil, but > the > > fact that symptoms appear in the exterior means that the disease > > manifests and exterior pattern. > > > > Ok, are any exterior-resolvers ever used in CM to treat nausea and > > vomiting? Yes, Chai Hu, Sheng Jiang, Zi Su Ye, and Ge Gen are all > > exterior-resolvers which can be used to treat nausea and vomiting. > > This is because all nausea and vomiting involves upward > counterflow of > > the stomach qi no matter what its other disease mechanims, and > > exterior-resolving medicinals and qi-rectifying medicinals are > often > > used interchangeably to rectfy the qi, thus downbearing > counterflow > > and harmonizing the stomach. So, within CM, it there are other > > medicinals which are used to both resolve the exterior and rectify > the > > qi and thereby treat allergic rhinitis, allergic dermatoses, and > > nausea and vomiting. Therefore, provisionally, I think we can > > hypothesize that diphendydramine is a very strong acrid, > > exterior-resolver. I say strong because it causes marked sedation > in > > 50% of those who take it at recommeneded dosages. However, we now > must > > see if that description would account for all its known adverse > > reactions and any effects potentized by other combinations or > factors. > > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For that > we'd > > need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves. > > Parkinson's includes tremors but more than tremors. For instance, > > there is rigidity, hypokinesia, and muscular aching. > Hypothetically, > > it is easy to see how an acrid exterior-resolver might positively > > affect rigidity and muscular aching since there is very little > > difference between exterior-resolver and wind-treating medicinals > in > > CM and these two classes of meds are often used interchangeably. > In > > any case, my sources do not specify what PD symptoms > diphenhydramine > > benefits, and, until we know those, anything we say is complete, > > unsupported conjecture. > > > > The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side effects > of > > diphenhydramine are (according to Dr. Long): drowsiness,a sense of > > weakness, dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and > constipation. > > Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid, > > exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. Drowsiness and lack > of > > strength are due to scattering and dispersal of the qi. A dry > nose, > > mouth, and throat and constipation may be due to damage of fluids. > In > > addition, constipation might be a combination of both fluid damage > and > > dispsersal of lung qi due to the interior-exterior relationship of > the > > lungs and large intestine in CM. > > > > More serious adverse reactions include skin rash and hives, > headache, > > dizziness, inability to concentrate, nervousness, blurred or > double > > vision, and difficult urination. Can a strong acrid > exterior-resolver > > treat hives in one person but cause them in another? According to > CM, > > the answer is yes. If a person has less blood, damage to fluids > may > > result in damage to blood (blood and fluids share a common > source). In > > that case, blood may fail to control the qi which may stir > > frenetically and counterflow upward and outward, thus creating > blood > > vacuity-internal wind hives. How about headache? Yes, again, a > strong > > acrid, exterior-resolver may damage yin, thus leading to failure > of > > yin in its control of yang. If yang counterflows upward, viola, > > headache, AND dizziness. How about nervousness? Yes again. If an > > acrid, exterior-resolver damages yin and yin fails to control yang > and > > yang stirs frenetically, there may be nervous agitation and > > restlessness. Lack of conctentration? This may be due to either or > > some combination of scattered qi not constructing the spirit or > yin > > and blood not nourishing the spirit. Both may be a side effect of > the > > use of a very strong acrid exterior-resolver. Double vision and > > blurred vision are mostly due to liver blood vacuity, and we know > that > > strong acrid exterior-resolvers may damage the blood. That leaves > > difficult urination or prostatism. One of the contraindications of > > Benadryl is prostatic hypertrophy. In CM, prostatic hypertrophy is > > usually due to a combination of blood stasis and phlegm > obstructing > > the free flow of urine and qi vacuity failing to empower the > discharge > > of urine. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver disperse so much > qi > > that there was not enough left to push the urine out of the body? > If > > it were strong enough to scatter the spirit qi and cause sedation, > I > > would say yes. So once again, all the more serious adverse > reactions > > of diphgenhydramine can be explained by seeing this med as a > strong > > acrid exterior-resolver. > > > > What about even more serious adverse reactions? Leukopenia and > > platelet destruction. Leukopenia manifests as weakened cellular > > immunity with fever, sore throat, and infections. Fever and sore > > throat may be due to qi vacuity, yin vacuity, and/or contraction > of > > external evils. If the defensive qi is scattered, this leads to > > nonsecuring of the exterior with easy contraction of external > evils. > > Platelet destruction leads to abnormal bleeding or bruising. This > is > > also typically due to qi vacuity not managing or containing the > blood > > within its vessels. Therefore, it is possible for a strongly > > qi-scattering and yin-damaging medicinal to cause these reactions > in > > patients whose qi and/or yin is not strong and exuberant. > > > > Diphenhydramine may also shorten the menstrual cycle. This can be > due > > either to qi vacuity not containing the blood or yin vacuity > giving > > rise to vacuity heat. Diphenhydramine may activate latent > epilepsy, > > galucoma, and prostatism. We've already dealt with prostatism > above. > > Epilepsy is usually associated with stirring wind, and we've seen > that > > damage to yin may lead to loss of control over the yang qi which > may > > then stir frenetically or hyperactively. Glaucoma is reframed into > > clear-eyed blindness in Chinese medicine, and the main cause is > blood > > vacuity. We've already seen above how a strong acrid > exterior-resolver > > may damage yin-blood-fluids and lead to vision problems. > > > > One of the cautions recorded for using this drug is in case of > > bronchial asthma, bronchitis, or pneumonia since this med may > thicken > > mucus and make it more diffciult to expectorate. Could a strong > acrid > > exterior-resolver do that? Yes, if not combined with > > phlegm-transforming, fluid-engendering meds. > > > > This drug should be used with caution and reduced dosage in > infants > > and children because it can easily cause adverse reactions on the > > brain and nervous system. In CM we say, infants have a pure yang > body. > > This means that yin and yang are not well mutually rooted > > intercontrolling in infants. Therefore, yang easily becomes > > hyperactive, and a strong acrid exterior-resolver could definitely > > aggravate such a tendency. > > > > Similarly, this drug may cause drowsiness, dizziness, > unstreadiness > > and impairment in thinking, judgement, and memory in those over > 60. > > However, the Nei Jing says that, at 40 years, yin is automatically > > half. Further, due to decline in spleen function, there is less > qi. > > Thus the above reactions are due to scattering of the qi and > damage to > > yin in those with less qi and yin due to age. > > > > What happens from an overdose of diphenhydramine? Marked > drowsiness, > > confusion, incoordination, unsteadiness, muscle tremors, stupor, > coma, > > seizures, fever, flushed face, weak pulse, shallow breathing. > Anything > > that scattering of qi and damage to yin wouldn't produce? No. > > > > We also know that the combination diphenhydramine and alcohol can > > cause rapid and marked sedation. We know that alcohol is also > acrid > > and very scattering, dispersing, and moving. So it makes sense > that > > putting two scattering, dispersing, moving meds together would > cause > > even more marked and quicker sedation, i.e., deconstruction of the > > spirit qi. Similarly, diphenhydramine may potentize all drugs > which a > > sedative action (which, please be careful here, is not the same as > > spirit-quieting. Gotta be sure not to mix apples and oranges). > > > > At this point in time, I feel pretty comfortable hypothesizing > that > > diphenhydramine is an acrid, exterior-resolving medicinal > according to > > the logic of Chinese medicine. Now, to prove, this, we would need > to > > go into the clinic and see if there is more marked drowsiness and > lack > > of strength in patients who present a qi vacuity pattern who take > this > > med, or if patients with a yin vacuity pattern who take this drug > tend > > to have more nervousness and agitation. My limited experience with > > this drug, both as a patient and as a practitioner suggests that > this > > is the case. However, we would need a certain sample size before > we > > could come to any justifiable conclusions. > > > > Nevertheless, hopefully, this should help explain how I think one > can > > begin hypothesizing about the CM description of Western meds. > Maybe > > someday there'll be a PDR with these kinds of descriptions in > them. > > Till then, we will have to figure these things out for themselves. > > However, this does require knowing Chinese medicine really well in > the > > correct words. > > > > Good luck, > > > > Bob > > > > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > > > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Of the above three, which would you say has been affected by > the > > > > astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) effects > of > > > > benadryl? > > > > > > > > Fernando > > > > > > I think these all could be the results of over astringency > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 No, I can think of no Chinese medical medicinal used for the treatment of insomnia which is an exterior-resolver per se. That's because, in Chinese medicine, we typically try not to damage the righteous qi to force an effect. Rather, we search for the underlying disease mechanism and then apply just the right counterbalancing treatment. This is exactly where Western medicine tends to go wrong. It forces results by any means through its sheer potency. If opiates and Benadryl work by scattering (i.e., deconstructing) the spirit qi, this means that they are an inferior class of meds. In the Shen Nong Ben Cao, inferior meds are used for the remedial treatment of typically acute disease. However, they have a tendency to produce adverse reactions. Therefore, they should be used with caution and only as long as actually needed. Once that need is met, then they should be imediately discontinued. In other words, a less wise approach to praxis does not necessarily negate a medicinal's description. Let me give you a real-life example. I once saw a patient who was severely depressed. As we now know, there is no depression without anxiety. A previous Chinese doctor from China had treated this teenage female's depression with a Ma Huang decoction. That resulted in lifting her depression, but it also caused amenorrhea and night sweats due to damaging the young woman's yin-blood. She had a shao yin bodily constitution, and, because she was a teenager, her kidneys were not yet securely exuberant and gesundt. The doctor got an immediate effect, but neither you nor I would probably call this high quality Chinese medicine. Similarly, although I might be willing to use Benadryl to get to sleep on a single evening racked by acute insomnia, I would not suggest it as a way to treat chronic insomnia. Thus, we do not tend to use exterior-resolving meds for the treatment of insomnia. As for the Chinese description of opiates being sour in flavor and, therefore, astringing, I believe this is an incorrect assumption due to being influenced by traditional Chinese descriptions of Ying Su Ke. To me, the part of the Chinese description that I believe is valuable is that opiates cause sleep and sedation by scattering the qi. Securing and astringing is diametrically opposed, at least in my mind, to scattering, dispersing, and out-thrusting. Securing medicinals, such as Wu Wei Zi, tend to construct the spirit qi, thus quieting it, not scattering it and causing lack of consciousness because of deconstruction of the spirit brilliance. These are two diamertically opposite methods of inducing reduced sensitivity and sleep. In other words, spirit-quieting is not the same as causing sedation due to deconstruction of the spirit qi. Bob , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > , " pemachophel2001 " < > pemachophel2001> wrote: > > > > > -- I believe published an article on the CM description of opiates in > > the Blue Poppy On-line Journal. If not, then the article is posted > > under the Free Articles section at www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com. > > This is not my description. What I published is a translation of a > > recent Chinese journal article. The article simply lumped all opiates > > together as having basically the same CM description (opium, heroin, > > morphine). > > in addition to being warm and blood moving, they are also listed in > this article as being sour and having astringent properties. Nowhere > are they described as being specifically exterior releasing, though > they are said to scatter qi and lift depression, two functions often > seen in exterior relievers. However, they are not described as > treating pain by exterior effects, but rather internal qi and blood > moving effects. In addition, benadryl does not treat pain, it merely > sedates. It still is not convincing to me that exterior releasing > accounts for benadryl's sedative properties. Is there any other > medicinal that relieves insomnia by exterior resolving? > > > > > > > > > > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? > > since benadryl addresses wind tremors, not aching pain due to > obstruction in Parkinsons, I do not see how exterior releasing could be > correct here. In fact, exterior releasing is usually contraindicated > in internal wind. Is there any other medicinal that relieves tremors by > exterior resolving? This med appears to extinguish wind. > > > > > > -- strong astringency definitely does not account for all the > > intended therapeutic effects nor all the adverse reactions and > > combined effects of diphenhydramine. In creating a CM description, > > you've got to hunt for the single effect that accounts for all the > > information. > > I do not understand this contention,either. Medicinals have multiple > actions that account for their effects. For example, mu li exerts some > of its effects by astringency and others by heavy settling. Most herbs > have 2 or more functions? Why are you saying we need to identify one > mechanism. Even your example of opiates is indicated in the article > you reference as both moving in the vessels and astringent in the > yangming. > > For instance, while we do routinely treat allergic > > dermatoses with acrid exterior-resolveing meds, we do not > > routinely treat that kind of condition with securing and astringing > > meds. > > I grant that as a hole in my hypothesis, but I find yours to be > unconvincing, as well. > > Nor do we treat any of the symptoms of PD with securing and > > astringing. > > but we do use heavy settling and several meds have both heavy settling > and astringing effects (mu li, long gu) > > Likewise, securing and astringing is not used for the > > relief of nausea. > > however, at least one astringent herb affects nausea via warming the > stomach (rou dou kou). > > I am not comfortable with my description of benadryl, but I am equally > uncomfortable with making any clinical decisions on the assumption that > it relieves the exterior. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 , " pemachophel2001 " < pemachophel2001> wrote: That's because, in > Chinese medicine, we typically try not to damage the righteous qi to > force an effect. Interesting perspective. So what I should be considering here is that many exterior releasing substance may lead to qi xu, one sx of which is sleepiness. Fair enough. But what about the tremors? does any exterior relaser calm wind? Well, fang feng and ju hua both do, but is that due to their exterior releasing or some other property? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 In my experience, most exterior-resolves do not actually cause sensible perspiration unless used specifically for the purpose of "breaking a fever" in the case of an exterior pattern >>>>>Bob, I agree but if it is so strong that it results in essence spirit dispersion then I would think it should As to you other questions you are absolutely correct in asking for the number of patients, which of course I do not have enough off, to make any kind of statement. But to me that is also the only way one should try to come up with TCM principles. Since in the other speculation no signs are involved and to me they always take precedence Alon - pemachophel2001 Friday, December 28, 2001 11:18 AM Re: Benadryl Alon,In my experience, most exterior-resolvers do not actually cause sensible perspiration unless used specifically for the purpose of "breaking a fever" in the case of an exterior pattern.As for the thick, yellow tongue fur you have observed, that is interesting. The questions I would need answered before even venturing a guess here would be:1. How many patients are we talking about (i.e., what's your sample size)?2. What were these particular patients' A) bodily constitution, B) sex, C) age, D) conditions for which they were seeking treatment, and E) Chinese medical patterns?3. What other therapies were they concomitantly using?4. What were their diets?Actually, even before I hear your answers to these questions, I will suggest one possible hypothesis. As I suggested, the acrid, strongly scattering nature of diphenhydramine can A) scatter the qi and B) damage yin. Since the lung qi is rooted in the spleen qi, strongly draining the lung qi might result in damaging the spleen qi. If the spleen qi was too weak to move and transform water and grains, these might accumulate and transform into food stagnation. Since stagnant food impedes the free flow of yang qi, it tends to cause or aggravate qi stagnation. If such qi stagnation transforms into depressive heat, then one could get thick, yellow fur.Another scenario might be damage to yin fluids of the lungs and large intestine with acumulation and binding of the stools. This could also result in thick, yellow fur.Since there are at least two scenarios that I can think of for a strongly acrid exterior-resolver resulting in thick, yellow tongue fur, we would need to know specifically about the patients in which you saw these twongue changes after having taken Benadryl.Also, in a work on tongue changes due to Western medical drugs, I can find no reference to diphenhydramine causing any thickening or yellowing of the tongue fur. This suggests that such changes you have observed are idiosyncratic. What my sources do say is that Benadryl causes xerostomia, dryness of the mouth, and I think we've adequately accounted for that.Bob, "Ruth Goldenberg" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> > - > diphendydramine> >>>Bob,> Yes it does however, I was wandering why would such a strong spicy surface releaving medication does not cause sweating and why it is more common to find a thick yellow tongue coat than a real Yin Def tongue?> Alon> > pemachophel2001 > > Friday, December 28, 2001 9:48 AM> Re: Benadryl> > > Alon,> > Yes. That's pretty interesting. So that fact seems to support my > working hypothesis as well.> > Bob> > , "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> > Nice exercise Bob.> > This would also explain why wu wei zi helps the sideeffects> > Alon> > > > - > > pemachophel2001 > > > > Thursday, December 27, 2001 12:28 PM> > Re: Benadryl> > > > > > Having just returned from Xmas in Texas (an experience of it's > own), > > I'm going to jump in here instead of responding to each of the > points > > and queries made in this thread.> > > > First of all, Fernando, I think you've made a very interesting > > discovery, i.e., that Benadryl is a formula, not a single > medicinal. I > > didn't know this at the time I suggested this as an example. From > the > > source I looked at (James W. Long's The Essential Guide to > > Prescription Drugs), I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was simply > > diphendydramine. My mistake. What this means is that, in order to > work > > out a CM description of this medicine, we must first work out the > CM > > descriptions of pseudoephedrine, acetaminophen, AND > diphenhydramine.> > > > The good news is that I don't think anyone should have any big > > difficulty with assuming that pseudoephedrine is an upbearing, > > out-thrusting exterior-resolver analogous to Ma Huang. Not only > does > > it resolve the exterior, it also diffuses the lungs. However, like > Ma > > Huang, on the down side, its scattering and diffusing nature may > also > > damage both qi and yin. Since yang is nothing other than a lot of > qi > > and yin and yang are mutually rooted, damage qi and yin enough and > you > > could also damage yang, depending on the patient's habitual bodily > > (constitution) and other contributing factors.> > > > Acetaminophen is also relatively easy to deal with in CM terms. As > > already pointed out, its two main uses are as an analgesic and > > anti-inflammatory. The single key statement about pain is that, if > > there is pain, there is no free flow. Based on this "fact," all > > analgesics must, ipso facto according to the logic of CM, somehow > > restore free flow. The main categories of Chinese meds which > restore > > free flow of the qi and blood in the body via a vis pain are A) > > exterior-resolvers, B) qi-rectifiers, C) blood-quickeners, and > > D)wind-treating medicinals. So acetaminophen should probably be > > classified as one of these types of Chinese meds. Now let's look > at > > inflammation. Inflammation may or may not be detectable via the > > four examinations. In cases where it is not detectable by one of > the > > four examinations, such as in many cases of tennis elbow, it is > > typically reframed into pain. In that case, we're back to pain > again. > > In cases where there is detectable heat in a CM sense, we need to > look > > at all the different ways of eliminating heat in CM. Heat may be > > cleared using bitter, cold medicinals. However, it may also be > > out-thrust when that heat is depressive in nature (as is heat due > to > > traumatic injury). Yet another method is to seep dampness to "lead > > yang into the the yin tract." > > > > I don't think we can make a case for acetaminophen being a bitter, > > cold heat-clearing medicinal if we look at all its clinical uses, > > adverse reactions, and its reactions with other substances and > > situations. That leaves the probability that it both stops pain > and > > clears heat by somehow freeing the flow and resolving depression. > > (Here I do not mean necessarily liver depression. Here I'm using > the > > word the way Zhu Dan-xi used it.) > > > > That brings us back again to the same four categories of Chinese > > medicines suggested above. Since acetaminophen achieves an effect > on > > pains other than that which are characteristic of blood > > stasis, my guess at the moment is that it is not simply a > > blood-quickening med. Anything that moves the qi strongly will, at > > least to some extent, also move the blood. This is based on the > > statement, the qi moves the blood; if the qi moves, the blood > moves. > > If acetaminophen is a blood-quickener, it is a blood-quickener > like > > Chuan Xiong and Yuan Hu Suo which move the qi within the blood. > What > > this really means is that these two meds straddle the fence > between > > qi-rectifiers and blood-quickeners. However, don't forget that an > > exterior-resolver such as Bai Zhi is also a very effective > > pain-stopping medicinal which is an exterior-resolver. So this med > > could be an exterior-resolver. > > > > Because of time and the necessity of seeing patients and running > Blue > > Poppy, I'm going to leave acetaminophen here at this point. > Instead of > > actually working out its CM description, I'm going to move onto > > diphenhydramine. We're in the ballpark with acetaminophen in any > case. > > What we know is that it is strongly moving in nature, and strongly > > moving medicinals tend to be acrid in terms of taste. Also, strong > > moving medicinals are also attacking medicinal according to the > logic > > of CM. This means they damage the righteous. Specifically, what > this > > mostly means is that they scatter the qi (and, therefore, yang) > and > > may damage yin (and, therefore, blood and body fluids). > > > > What are the clinical applications of diphenhydramine?> > > > 1. Relief of allergic rhinitis> > 2. Relief of allergic dermatoses> > 3. Prevention & relief of motion sickness> > 4. Partial relief of symptoms of Parkinson's disease> > 5. Nonaddictive yet effective (i.e., strong) sedative and hypnotic> > > > In CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective sedatives, > > achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering > > exterior-resolvers. Consciousness is a function of the spirit > > brilliance which is, in turn, nothing other than a certain > quantity of > > yang qi accumulated in the heart and nourished by the blood and > > essence. Opiates achieve their sedation by scattering or > > deconstructing the spirit brilliance. > > > > That being said, could a strongly scattering and dispersing > > exterior-resolver also be used to treat allergic rhinitis and > > allergice dermatoses according to the prescriptive logic of CM? > Most > > definitely so. Acrid exterior-resolvers are routinely used in CM > to > > treat both allergic rhinitis and allergic dermatoses (with one of > the > > most common allergic deramtological complaint being urticaria or > > hives). The active stage of allergic rhinitis and the active stage > of > > allergic dermatoses are both considered exterior pattern > conditions, > > meaning not necessarily that they are caused by an externally > > contracted evil but are manifesting in the exterior (in Chinese, > > external and exterior are different words and have different > meanings > > and imlications). In the case of allergic rhinitis, there is the > > assumption that there is an externally contracted wind evil > (meaning > > some useen airborne pathogen). In the case of allergic dermatoses, > > there may or may not be an externally contracted wind evil, but > the > > fact that symptoms appear in the exterior means that the disease > > manifests and exterior pattern.> > > > Ok, are any exterior-resolvers ever used in CM to treat nausea and > > vomiting? Yes, Chai Hu, Sheng Jiang, Zi Su Ye, and Ge Gen are all > > exterior-resolvers which can be used to treat nausea and vomiting. > > This is because all nausea and vomiting involves upward > counterflow of > > the stomach qi no matter what its other disease mechanims, and > > exterior-resolving medicinals and qi-rectifying medicinals are > often > > used interchangeably to rectfy the qi, thus downbearing > counterflow > > and harmonizing the stomach. So, within CM, it there are other > > medicinals which are used to both resolve the exterior and rectify > the > > qi and thereby treat allergic rhinitis, allergic dermatoses, and > > nausea and vomiting. Therefore, provisionally, I think we can > > hypothesize that diphendydramine is a very strong acrid, > > exterior-resolver. I say strong because it causes marked sedation > in > > 50% of those who take it at recommeneded dosages. However, we now > must > > see if that description would account for all its known adverse > > reactions and any effects potentized by other combinations or > factors.> > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For that > we'd > > need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves. > > Parkinson's includes tremors but more than tremors. For instance, > > there is rigidity, hypokinesia, and muscular aching. > Hypothetically, > > it is easy to see how an acrid exterior-resolver might positively > > affect rigidity and muscular aching since there is very little > > difference between exterior-resolver and wind-treating medicinals > in > > CM and these two classes of meds are often used interchangeably. > In > > any case, my sources do not specify what PD symptoms > diphenhydramine > > benefits, and, until we know those, anything we say is complete, > > unsupported conjecture.> > > > The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side effects > of > > diphenhydramine are (according to Dr. Long): drowsiness,a sense of > > weakness, dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and > constipation. > > Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid, > > exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. Drowsiness and lack > of > > strength are due to scattering and dispersal of the qi. A dry > nose, > > mouth, and throat and constipation may be due to damage of fluids. > In > > addition, constipation might be a combination of both fluid damage > and > > dispsersal of lung qi due to the interior-exterior relationship of > the > > lungs and large intestine in CM.> > > > More serious adverse reactions include skin rash and hives, > headache, > > dizziness, inability to concentrate, nervousness, blurred or > double > > vision, and difficult urination. Can a strong acrid > exterior-resolver > > treat hives in one person but cause them in another? According to > CM, > > the answer is yes. If a person has less blood, damage to fluids > may > > result in damage to blood (blood and fluids share a common > source). In > > that case, blood may fail to control the qi which may stir > > frenetically and counterflow upward and outward, thus creating > blood > > vacuity-internal wind hives. How about headache? Yes, again, a > strong > > acrid, exterior-resolver may damage yin, thus leading to failure > of > > yin in its control of yang. If yang counterflows upward, viola, > > headache, AND dizziness. How about nervousness? Yes again. If an > > acrid, exterior-resolver damages yin and yin fails to control yang > and > > yang stirs frenetically, there may be nervous agitation and > > restlessness. Lack of conctentration? This may be due to either or > > some combination of scattered qi not constructing the spirit or > yin > > and blood not nourishing the spirit. Both may be a side effect of > the > > use of a very strong acrid exterior-resolver. Double vision and > > blurred vision are mostly due to liver blood vacuity, and we know > that > > strong acrid exterior-resolvers may damage the blood. That leaves > > difficult urination or prostatism. One of the contraindications of > > Benadryl is prostatic hypertrophy. In CM, prostatic hypertrophy is > > usually due to a combination of blood stasis and phlegm > obstructing > > the free flow of urine and qi vacuity failing to empower the > discharge > > of urine. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver disperse so much > qi > > that there was not enough left to push the urine out of the body? > If > > it were strong enough to scatter the spirit qi and cause sedation, > I > > would say yes. So once again, all the more serious adverse > reactions > > of diphgenhydramine can be explained by seeing this med as a > strong > > acrid exterior-resolver.> > > > What about even more serious adverse reactions? Leukopenia and > > platelet destruction. Leukopenia manifests as weakened cellular > > immunity with fever, sore throat, and infections. Fever and sore > > throat may be due to qi vacuity, yin vacuity, and/or contraction > of > > external evils. If the defensive qi is scattered, this leads to > > nonsecuring of the exterior with easy contraction of external > evils. > > Platelet destruction leads to abnormal bleeding or bruising. This > is > > also typically due to qi vacuity not managing or containing the > blood > > within its vessels. Therefore, it is possible for a strongly > > qi-scattering and yin-damaging medicinal to cause these reactions > in > > patients whose qi and/or yin is not strong and exuberant.> > > > Diphenhydramine may also shorten the menstrual cycle. This can be > due > > either to qi vacuity not containing the blood or yin vacuity > giving > > rise to vacuity heat. Diphenhydramine may activate latent > epilepsy, > > galucoma, and prostatism. We've already dealt with prostatism > above. > > Epilepsy is usually associated with stirring wind, and we've seen > that > > damage to yin may lead to loss of control over the yang qi which > may > > then stir frenetically or hyperactively. Glaucoma is reframed into > > clear-eyed blindness in Chinese medicine, and the main cause is > blood > > vacuity. We've already seen above how a strong acrid > exterior-resolver > > may damage yin-blood-fluids and lead to vision problems.> > > > One of the cautions recorded for using this drug is in case of > > bronchial asthma, bronchitis, or pneumonia since this med may > thicken > > mucus and make it more diffciult to expectorate. Could a strong > acrid > > exterior-resolver do that? Yes, if not combined with > > phlegm-transforming, fluid-engendering meds.> > > > This drug should be used with caution and reduced dosage in > infants > > and children because it can easily cause adverse reactions on the > > brain and nervous system. In CM we say, infants have a pure yang > body. > > This means that yin and yang are not well mutually rooted > > intercontrolling in infants. Therefore, yang easily becomes > > hyperactive, and a strong acrid exterior-resolver could definitely > > aggravate such a tendency.> > > > Similarly, this drug may cause drowsiness, dizziness, > unstreadiness > > and impairment in thinking, judgement, and memory in those over > 60. > > However, the Nei Jing says that, at 40 years, yin is automatically > > half. Further, due to decline in spleen function, there is less > qi. > > Thus the above reactions are due to scattering of the qi and > damage to > > yin in those with less qi and yin due to age.> > > > What happens from an overdose of diphenhydramine? Marked > drowsiness, > > confusion, incoordination, unsteadiness, muscle tremors, stupor, > coma, > > seizures, fever, flushed face, weak pulse, shallow breathing. > Anything > > that scattering of qi and damage to yin wouldn't produce? No.> > > > We also know that the combination diphenhydramine and alcohol can > > cause rapid and marked sedation. We know that alcohol is also > acrid > > and very scattering, dispersing, and moving. So it makes sense > that > > putting two scattering, dispersing, moving meds together would > cause > > even more marked and quicker sedation, i.e., deconstruction of the > > spirit qi. Similarly, diphenhydramine may potentize all drugs > which a > > sedative action (which, please be careful here, is not the same as > > spirit-quieting. Gotta be sure not to mix apples and oranges).> > > > At this point in time, I feel pretty comfortable hypothesizing > that > > diphenhydramine is an acrid, exterior-resolving medicinal > according to > > the logic of Chinese medicine. Now, to prove, this, we would need > to > > go into the clinic and see if there is more marked drowsiness and > lack > > of strength in patients who present a qi vacuity pattern who take > this > > med, or if patients with a yin vacuity pattern who take this drug > tend > > to have more nervousness and agitation. My limited experience with > > this drug, both as a patient and as a practitioner suggests that > this > > is the case. However, we would need a certain sample size before > we > > could come to any justifiable conclusions.> > > > Nevertheless, hopefully, this should help explain how I think one > can > > begin hypothesizing about the CM description of Western meds. > Maybe > > someday there'll be a PDR with these kinds of descriptions in > them. > > Till then, we will have to figure these things out for themselves. > > However, this does require knowing Chinese medicine really well in > the > > correct words.> > > > Good luck,> > > > Bob > > > > , "1" <@i...> wrote:> > > , "fbernall" <fbernall@a...> > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > Of the above three, which would you say has been affected by > the > > > > astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) effects > of > > > > benadryl?> > > > > > > > Fernando> > > > > > I think these all could be the results of over astringency> > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 Similarly, although I might be willing to use Benadryl to get to sleep on a single evening racked by acute insomnia, I would not suggest it as a way to treat chronic insomnia. Thus, we do not tend to use exterior-resolving meds for the treatment of insomnia.>>>>Bob do we know that Benadryl has any severe long term bad effects? We know that opium does but does but does that mean Benadryl does? I find the concept of scattering (i.e., deconstructing) the spirit Qi intriguing as a cause of sedation. What is your take then on sedating anti-depressants Alon - pemachophel2001 Friday, December 28, 2001 11:42 AM Re: Benadryl No, I can think of no Chinese medical medicinal used for the treatment of insomnia which is an exterior-resolver per se. That's because, in Chinese medicine, we typically try not to damage the righteous qi to force an effect. Rather, we search for the underlying disease mechanism and then apply just the right counterbalancing treatment. This is exactly where Western medicine tends to go wrong. It forces results by any means through its sheer potency. If opiates and Benadryl work by scattering (i.e., deconstructing) the spirit qi, this means that they are an inferior class of meds. In the Shen Nong Ben Cao, inferior meds are used for the remedial treatment of typically acute disease. However, they have a tendency to produce adverse reactions. Therefore, they should be used with caution and only as long as actually needed. Once that need is met, then they should be imediately discontinued. In other words, a less wise approach to praxis does not necessarily negate a medicinal's description.Let me give you a real-life example. I once saw a patient who was severely depressed. As we now know, there is no depression without anxiety. A previous Chinese doctor from China had treated this teenage female's depression with a Ma Huang decoction. That resulted in lifting her depression, but it also caused amenorrhea and night sweats due to damaging the young woman's yin-blood. She had a shao yin bodily constitution, and, because she was a teenager, her kidneys were not yet securely exuberant and gesundt. The doctor got an immediate effect, but neither you nor I would probably call this high quality Chinese medicine. Similarly, although I might be willing to use Benadryl to get to sleep on a single evening racked by acute insomnia, I would not suggest it as a way to treat chronic insomnia. Thus, we do not tend to use exterior-resolving meds for the treatment of insomnia.As for the Chinese description of opiates being sour in flavor and, therefore, astringing, I believe this is an incorrect assumption due to being influenced by traditional Chinese descriptions of Ying Su Ke. To me, the part of the Chinese description that I believe is valuable is that opiates cause sleep and sedation by scattering the qi. Securing and astringing is diametrically opposed, at least in my mind, to scattering, dispersing, and out-thrusting. Securing medicinals, such as Wu Wei Zi, tend to construct the spirit qi, thus quieting it, not scattering it and causing lack of consciousness because of deconstruction of the spirit brilliance. These are two diamertically opposite methods of inducing reduced sensitivity and sleep. In other words, spirit-quieting is not the same as causing sedation due to deconstruction of the spirit qi. Bob, "1" <@i...> wrote:> , "pemachophel2001" <> pemachophel2001> wrote:> > > > > -- I believe published an article on the CM description of opiates in > > the Blue Poppy On-line Journal. If not, then the article is posted > > under the Free Articles section at www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com. > > This is not my description. What I published is a translation of a > > recent Chinese journal article. The article simply lumped all opiates > > together as having basically the same CM description (opium, heroin, > > morphine).> > in addition to being warm and blood moving, they are also listed in > this article as being sour and having astringent properties. Nowhere > are they described as being specifically exterior releasing, though > they are said to scatter qi and lift depression, two functions often > seen in exterior relievers. However, they are not described as > treating pain by exterior effects, but rather internal qi and blood > moving effects. In addition, benadryl does not treat pain, it merely > sedates. It still is not convincing to me that exterior releasing > accounts for benadryl's sedative properties. Is there any other > medicinal that relieves insomnia by exterior resolving? > > > > > > > > > > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? > > since benadryl addresses wind tremors, not aching pain due to > obstruction in Parkinsons, I do not see how exterior releasing could be > correct here. In fact, exterior releasing is usually contraindicated > in internal wind. Is there any other medicinal that relieves tremors by > exterior resolving? This med appears to extinguish wind.> > > > > > -- strong astringency definitely does not account for all the > > intended therapeutic effects nor all the adverse reactions and > > combined effects of diphenhydramine. In creating a CM description, > > you've got to hunt for the single effect that accounts for all the > > information. > > I do not understand this contention,either. Medicinals have multiple > actions that account for their effects. For example, mu li exerts some > of its effects by astringency and others by heavy settling. Most herbs > have 2 or more functions? Why are you saying we need to identify one > mechanism. Even your example of opiates is indicated in the article > you reference as both moving in the vessels and astringent in the > yangming.> > For instance, while we do routinely treat allergic > > dermatoses with acrid exterior-resolveing meds, we do not > > routinely treat that kind of condition with securing and astringing > > meds.> > I grant that as a hole in my hypothesis, but I find yours to be > unconvincing, as well.> > Nor do we treat any of the symptoms of PD with securing and > > astringing. > > but we do use heavy settling and several meds have both heavy settling > and astringing effects (mu li, long gu)> > Likewise, securing and astringing is not used for the > > relief of nausea.> > however, at least one astringent herb affects nausea via warming the > stomach (rou dou kou).> > I am not comfortable with my description of benadryl, but I am equally > uncomfortable with making any clinical decisions on the assumption that > it relieves the exterior. > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. 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Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: What is your take then on sedating anti-depressants > Alon I bet its similar, because antidepressants probably move and lift qi, which would result in sedation due to overdispersal. I bet that is why marijuana is initially stimulating and has been used to treat depression by the eclectics, but also induces sleep. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 28, 2001 - sedation due to overdispersal >>>You know Todd I still have trouble with that concept. Why then so many people that are severely depressed do so well on some of these drugs and can stay on them for life with very little side effects? Some do so well that they would tell you they have never been so phisicaly healthy.This would never be true for opeum of example Alon 1 Friday, December 28, 2001 8:20 PM Re: Benadryl , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:What is your take then on sedating anti-depressants> AlonI bet its similar, because antidepressants probably move and lift qi, which would result in sedation due to overdispersal. I bet that is why marijuana is initially stimulating and has been used to treat depression by the eclectics, but also induces sleep.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 29, 2001 , " Ruth Goldenberg " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > >>>You know Todd I still have trouble with that concept. Why then so many people that are severely depressed do so well on some of these drugs and can stay on them for life with very little side effects? Some do so well that they would tell you they have never been so phisicaly healthy.This would never be true for opeum of example > Alon actually, plenty of people do well on natural opium, as well. It was used in european medicine for depression and awas considered milder than any drugs (see Herbal Medicine by Weiss). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 I think you would agree that one of the potential disease causes and mechanisms of tetany conditions (jing zheng) is wind in the channels and network vessels. Just a very quick look at Yeung Him-che's Chinese Herbs and Formulas Vol. 2 (it happens to be at my elbow as I write this) lists that as one of the patterns of tetany conditions. Under that heading, Yeung then suggests two formulas, Ge Gen Tang and Qiang Huo Sheng Shi Tang. These two formulas suggest that acrid, windy, exterior-resolving medicinals may be used to treat tetany conditions associated with wind even though stopping or checking tetany may not be a listed function of the individual meds in either of these two formulas. In that case, treating (zhi), coursing (shu), dispersing (xiao), dispelling (qu), or expelling (qu) wind would be enough in terms of requisite functions and tx principles. For instance, within Qiang Huo Sheng Shi Tang and according to B & G, Qiang Huo and Du Huo treat wind, Fang Feng, Gao Ben, and Chuan Xiong expel wind, and Man Jing Zi disperses wind. Bob , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > , " pemachophel2001 " < > pemachophel2001> wrote: > > That's because, in > > Chinese medicine, we typically try not to damage the righteous qi to > > force an effect. > > Interesting perspective. So what I should be considering here is that > many exterior releasing substance may lead to qi xu, one sx of which is > sleepiness. > > Fair enough. But what about the tremors? does any exterior relaser > calm wind? Well, fang feng and ju hua both do, but is that due to > their exterior releasing or some other property? > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 Alon, I think you would agree that the scientific process is to formulate a hypothesis based on some preliminary evidence. That evidence may be some clinical impressions or it may be something in the literature. My process has been to start with a hypothesis based on either of these two types of preliminary evidence. However, you and I both agree that one must proceed to verifying the hypothesis by research in live human subjects. Along these lines, having has the opportunity to check several of my case files, I have never personally seen any patient's tongue fur become thicker from taking Benadryl. However, we're only talking about the 3-4 files I could remember where the issue of Benadryl came up and which I could put my hands on. One of the reasons that I suggested Benadryl as a sample topic is because I have personally taken it. Several years ago I had severe recurrent, recalcitrant hives which Chinese meds weren't effective for in terms of acute relief. So I have some personal experience with this med. I can also say that it did not turn my tongue fur thicker or yellower. Bob , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > In my experience, most exterior-resolves do not actually cause > sensible perspiration unless used specifically for the purpose of > " breaking a fever " in the case of an exterior pattern > > >>>>>Bob, > I agree but if it is so strong that it results in essence spirit dispersion then I would think it should > As to you other questions you are absolutely correct in asking for the number of patients, which of course I do not have enough off, to make any kind of statement. But to me that is also the only way one should try to come up with TCM principles. Since in the other speculation no signs are involved and to me they always take precedence > Alon > - > pemachophel2001 > > Friday, December 28, 2001 11:18 AM > Re: Benadryl > > > Alon, > > In my experience, most exterior-resolvers do not actually cause > sensible perspiration unless used specifically for the purpose of > " breaking a fever " in the case of an exterior pattern. > > As for the thick, yellow tongue fur you have observed, that is > interesting. The questions I would need answered before even venturing > a guess here would be: > > 1. How many patients are we talking about (i.e., what's your sample > size)? > > 2. What were these particular patients' A) bodily constitution, B) > sex, C) age, D) conditions for which they were seeking treatment, and > E) Chinese medical patterns? > > 3. What other therapies were they concomitantly using? > > 4. What were their diets? > > Actually, even before I hear your answers to these questions, I will > suggest one possible hypothesis. As I suggested, the acrid, strongly > scattering nature of diphenhydramine can A) scatter the qi and B) > damage yin. Since the lung qi is rooted in the spleen qi, strongly > draining the lung qi might result in damaging the spleen qi. If the > spleen qi was too weak to move and transform water and grains, these > might accumulate and transform into food stagnation. Since stagnant > food impedes the free flow of yang qi, it tends to cause or aggravate > qi stagnation. If such qi stagnation transforms into depressive heat, > then one could get thick, yellow fur. > > Another scenario might be damage to yin fluids of the lungs and large > intestine with acumulation and binding of the stools. This could also > result in thick, yellow fur. > > Since there are at least two scenarios that I can think of for a > strongly acrid exterior-resolver resulting in thick, yellow tongue > fur, we would need to know specifically about the patients in which > you saw these twongue changes after having taken Benadryl. > > Also, in a work on tongue changes due to Western medical drugs, I can > find no reference to diphenhydramine causing any thickening or > yellowing of the tongue fur. This suggests that such changes you have > observed are idiosyncratic. What my sources do say is that Benadryl > causes xerostomia, dryness of the mouth, and I think we've adequately > accounted for that. > > Bob > > , " Ruth Goldenberg " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > > > - > > diphendydramine > > >>>Bob, > > Yes it does however, I was wandering why would such a strong spicy > surface releaving medication does not cause sweating and why it is > more common to find a thick yellow tongue coat than a real Yin Def > tongue? > > Alon > > > > pemachophel2001 > > > > Friday, December 28, 2001 9:48 AM > > Re: Benadryl > > > > > > Alon, > > > > Yes. That's pretty interesting. So that fact seems to support my > > working hypothesis as well. > > > > Bob > > > > , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > > Nice exercise Bob. > > > This would also explain why wu wei zi helps the sideeffects > > > Alon > > > > > > - > > > pemachophel2001 > > > > > > Thursday, December 27, 2001 12:28 PM > > > Re: Benadryl > > > > > > > > > Having just returned from Xmas in Texas (an experience of it's > > own), > > > I'm going to jump in here instead of responding to each of the > > points > > > and queries made in this thread. > > > > > > First of all, Fernando, I think you've made a very interesting > > > discovery, i.e., that Benadryl is a formula, not a single > > medicinal. I > > > didn't know this at the time I suggested this as an example. > From > > the > > > source I looked at (James W. Long's The Essential Guide to > > > Prescription Drugs), I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was > simply > > > diphendydramine. My mistake. What this means is that, in order > to > > work > > > out a CM description of this medicine, we must first work out > the > > CM > > > descriptions of pseudoephedrine, acetaminophen, AND > > diphenhydramine. > > > > > > The good news is that I don't think anyone should have any big > > > difficulty with assuming that pseudoephedrine is an upbearing, > > > out-thrusting exterior-resolver analogous to Ma Huang. Not > only > > does > > > it resolve the exterior, it also diffuses the lungs. However, > like > > Ma > > > Huang, on the down side, its scattering and diffusing nature > may > > also > > > damage both qi and yin. Since yang is nothing other than a lot > of > > qi > > > and yin and yang are mutually rooted, damage qi and yin enough > and > > you > > > could also damage yang, depending on the patient's habitual > bodily > > > (constitution) and other contributing factors. > > > > > > Acetaminophen is also relatively easy to deal with in CM > terms. As > > > already pointed out, its two main uses are as an analgesic and > > > anti-inflammatory. The single key statement about pain is > that, if > > > there is pain, there is no free flow. Based on this " fact, " > all > > > analgesics must, ipso facto according to the logic of CM, > somehow > > > restore free flow. The main categories of Chinese meds which > > restore > > > free flow of the qi and blood in the body via a vis pain are > A) > > > exterior-resolvers, B) qi-rectifiers, C) blood-quickeners, and > > > D)wind-treating medicinals. So acetaminophen should probably > be > > > classified as one of these types of Chinese meds. Now let's > look > > at > > > inflammation. Inflammation may or may not be detectable via > the > > > four examinations. In cases where it is not detectable by one > of > > the > > > four examinations, such as in many cases of tennis elbow, it > is > > > typically reframed into pain. In that case, we're back to pain > > again. > > > In cases where there is detectable heat in a CM sense, we need > to > > look > > > at all the different ways of eliminating heat in CM. Heat may > be > > > cleared using bitter, cold medicinals. However, it may also be > > > out-thrust when that heat is depressive in nature (as is heat > due > > to > > > traumatic injury). Yet another method is to seep dampness to > " lead > > > yang into the the yin tract. " > > > > > > I don't think we can make a case for acetaminophen being a > bitter, > > > cold heat-clearing medicinal if we look at all its clinical > uses, > > > adverse reactions, and its reactions with other substances and > > > situations. That leaves the probability that it both stops > pain > > and > > > clears heat by somehow freeing the flow and resolving > depression. > > > (Here I do not mean necessarily liver depression. Here I'm > using > > the > > > word the way Zhu Dan-xi used it.) > > > > > > That brings us back again to the same four categories of > Chinese > > > medicines suggested above. Since acetaminophen achieves an > effect > > on > > > pains other than that which are characteristic of blood > > > stasis, my guess at the moment is that it is not simply a > > > blood-quickening med. Anything that moves the qi strongly > will, at > > > least to some extent, also move the blood. This is based on > the > > > statement, the qi moves the blood; if the qi moves, the blood > > moves. > > > If acetaminophen is a blood-quickener, it is a blood-quickener > > like > > > Chuan Xiong and Yuan Hu Suo which move the qi within the > blood. > > What > > > this really means is that these two meds straddle the fence > > between > > > qi-rectifiers and blood-quickeners. However, don't forget that > an > > > exterior-resolver such as Bai Zhi is also a very effective > > > pain-stopping medicinal which is an exterior-resolver. So this > med > > > could be an exterior-resolver. > > > > > > Because of time and the necessity of seeing patients and > running > > Blue > > > Poppy, I'm going to leave acetaminophen here at this point. > > Instead of > > > actually working out its CM description, I'm going to move > onto > > > diphenhydramine. We're in the ballpark with acetaminophen in > any > > case. > > > What we know is that it is strongly moving in nature, and > strongly > > > moving medicinals tend to be acrid in terms of taste. Also, > strong > > > moving medicinals are also attacking medicinal according to > the > > logic > > > of CM. This means they damage the righteous. Specifically, > what > > this > > > mostly means is that they scatter the qi (and, therefore, > yang) > > and > > > may damage yin (and, therefore, blood and body fluids). > > > > > > What are the clinical applications of diphenhydramine? > > > > > > 1. Relief of allergic rhinitis > > > 2. Relief of allergic dermatoses > > > 3. Prevention & relief of motion sickness > > > 4. Partial relief of symptoms of Parkinson's disease > > > 5. Nonaddictive yet effective (i.e., strong) sedative and > hypnotic > > > > > > In CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective > sedatives, > > > achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering > > > exterior-resolvers. Consciousness is a function of the spirit > > > brilliance which is, in turn, nothing other than a certain > > quantity of > > > yang qi accumulated in the heart and nourished by the blood > and > > > essence. Opiates achieve their sedation by scattering or > > > deconstructing the spirit brilliance. > > > > > > That being said, could a strongly scattering and dispersing > > > exterior-resolver also be used to treat allergic rhinitis and > > > allergice dermatoses according to the prescriptive logic of > CM? > > Most > > > definitely so. Acrid exterior-resolvers are routinely used in > CM > > to > > > treat both allergic rhinitis and allergic dermatoses (with one > of > > the > > > most common allergic deramtological complaint being urticaria > or > > > hives). The active stage of allergic rhinitis and the active > stage > > of > > > allergic dermatoses are both considered exterior pattern > > conditions, > > > meaning not necessarily that they are caused by an externally > > > contracted evil but are manifesting in the exterior (in > Chinese, > > > external and exterior are different words and have different > > meanings > > > and imlications). In the case of allergic rhinitis, there is > the > > > assumption that there is an externally contracted wind evil > > (meaning > > > some useen airborne pathogen). In the case of allergic > dermatoses, > > > there may or may not be an externally contracted wind evil, > but > > the > > > fact that symptoms appear in the exterior means that the > disease > > > manifests and exterior pattern. > > > > > > Ok, are any exterior-resolvers ever used in CM to treat nausea > and > > > vomiting? Yes, Chai Hu, Sheng Jiang, Zi Su Ye, and Ge Gen are > all > > > exterior-resolvers which can be used to treat nausea and > vomiting. > > > This is because all nausea and vomiting involves upward > > counterflow of > > > the stomach qi no matter what its other disease mechanims, and > > > exterior-resolving medicinals and qi-rectifying medicinals are > > often > > > used interchangeably to rectfy the qi, thus downbearing > > counterflow > > > and harmonizing the stomach. So, within CM, it there are other > > > medicinals which are used to both resolve the exterior and > rectify > > the > > > qi and thereby treat allergic rhinitis, allergic dermatoses, > and > > > nausea and vomiting. Therefore, provisionally, I think we can > > > hypothesize that diphendydramine is a very strong acrid, > > > exterior-resolver. I say strong because it causes marked > sedation > > in > > > 50% of those who take it at recommeneded dosages. However, we > now > > must > > > see if that description would account for all its known > adverse > > > reactions and any effects potentized by other combinations or > > factors. > > > > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For > that > > we'd > > > need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves. > > > Parkinson's includes tremors but more than tremors. For > instance, > > > there is rigidity, hypokinesia, and muscular aching. > > Hypothetically, > > > it is easy to see how an acrid exterior-resolver might > positively > > > affect rigidity and muscular aching since there is very little > > > difference between exterior-resolver and wind-treating > medicinals > > in > > > CM and these two classes of meds are often used > interchangeably. > > In > > > any case, my sources do not specify what PD symptoms > > diphenhydramine > > > benefits, and, until we know those, anything we say is > complete, > > > unsupported conjecture. > > > > > > The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side > effects > > of > > > diphenhydramine are (according to Dr. Long): drowsiness,a > sense of > > > weakness, dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and > > constipation. > > > Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid, > > > exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. Drowsiness and > lack > > of > > > strength are due to scattering and dispersal of the qi. A dry > > nose, > > > mouth, and throat and constipation may be due to damage of > fluids. > > In > > > addition, constipation might be a combination of both fluid > damage > > and > > > dispsersal of lung qi due to the interior-exterior > relationship of > > the > > > lungs and large intestine in CM. > > > > > > More serious adverse reactions include skin rash and hives, > > headache, > > > dizziness, inability to concentrate, nervousness, blurred or > > double > > > vision, and difficult urination. Can a strong acrid > > exterior-resolver > > > treat hives in one person but cause them in another? According > to > > CM, > > > the answer is yes. If a person has less blood, damage to > fluids > > may > > > result in damage to blood (blood and fluids share a common > > source). In > > > that case, blood may fail to control the qi which may stir > > > frenetically and counterflow upward and outward, thus creating > > blood > > > vacuity-internal wind hives. How about headache? Yes, again, a > > strong > > > acrid, exterior-resolver may damage yin, thus leading to > failure > > of > > > yin in its control of yang. If yang counterflows upward, > viola, > > > headache, AND dizziness. How about nervousness? Yes again. If > an > > > acrid, exterior-resolver damages yin and yin fails to control > yang > > and > > > yang stirs frenetically, there may be nervous agitation and > > > restlessness. Lack of conctentration? This may be due to > either or > > > some combination of scattered qi not constructing the spirit > or > > yin > > > and blood not nourishing the spirit. Both may be a side effect > of > > the > > > use of a very strong acrid exterior-resolver. Double vision > and > > > blurred vision are mostly due to liver blood vacuity, and we > know > > that > > > strong acrid exterior-resolvers may damage the blood. That > leaves > > > difficult urination or prostatism. One of the > contraindications of > > > Benadryl is prostatic hypertrophy. In CM, prostatic > hypertrophy is > > > usually due to a combination of blood stasis and phlegm > > obstructing > > > the free flow of urine and qi vacuity failing to empower the > > discharge > > > of urine. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver disperse so > much > > qi > > > that there was not enough left to push the urine out of the > body? > > If > > > it were strong enough to scatter the spirit qi and cause > sedation, > > I > > > would say yes. So once again, all the more serious adverse > > reactions > > > of diphgenhydramine can be explained by seeing this med as a > > strong > > > acrid exterior-resolver. > > > > > > What about even more serious adverse reactions? Leukopenia and > > > platelet destruction. Leukopenia manifests as weakened > cellular > > > immunity with fever, sore throat, and infections. Fever and > sore > > > throat may be due to qi vacuity, yin vacuity, and/or > contraction > > of > > > external evils. If the defensive qi is scattered, this leads > to > > > nonsecuring of the exterior with easy contraction of external > > evils. > > > Platelet destruction leads to abnormal bleeding or bruising. > This > > is > > > also typically due to qi vacuity not managing or containing > the > > blood > > > within its vessels. Therefore, it is possible for a strongly > > > qi-scattering and yin-damaging medicinal to cause these > reactions > > in > > > patients whose qi and/or yin is not strong and exuberant. > > > > > > Diphenhydramine may also shorten the menstrual cycle. This can > be > > due > > > either to qi vacuity not containing the blood or yin vacuity > > giving > > > rise to vacuity heat. Diphenhydramine may activate latent > > epilepsy, > > > galucoma, and prostatism. We've already dealt with prostatism > > above. > > > Epilepsy is usually associated with stirring wind, and we've > seen > > that > > > damage to yin may lead to loss of control over the yang qi > which > > may > > > then stir frenetically or hyperactively. Glaucoma is reframed > into > > > clear-eyed blindness in Chinese medicine, and the main cause > is > > blood > > > vacuity. We've already seen above how a strong acrid > > exterior-resolver > > > may damage yin-blood-fluids and lead to vision problems. > > > > > > One of the cautions recorded for using this drug is in case of > > > bronchial asthma, bronchitis, or pneumonia since this med may > > thicken > > > mucus and make it more diffciult to expectorate. Could a > strong > > acrid > > > exterior-resolver do that? Yes, if not combined with > > > phlegm-transforming, fluid-engendering meds. > > > > > > This drug should be used with caution and reduced dosage in > > infants > > > and children because it can easily cause adverse reactions on > the > > > brain and nervous system. In CM we say, infants have a pure > yang > > body. > > > This means that yin and yang are not well mutually rooted > > > intercontrolling in infants. Therefore, yang easily becomes > > > hyperactive, and a strong acrid exterior-resolver could > definitely > > > aggravate such a tendency. > > > > > > Similarly, this drug may cause drowsiness, dizziness, > > unstreadiness > > > and impairment in thinking, judgement, and memory in those > over > > 60. > > > However, the Nei Jing says that, at 40 years, yin is > automatically > > > half. Further, due to decline in spleen function, there is > less > > qi. > > > Thus the above reactions are due to scattering of the qi and > > damage to > > > yin in those with less qi and yin due to age. > > > > > > What happens from an overdose of diphenhydramine? Marked > > drowsiness, > > > confusion, incoordination, unsteadiness, muscle tremors, > stupor, > > coma, > > > seizures, fever, flushed face, weak pulse, shallow breathing. > > Anything > > > that scattering of qi and damage to yin wouldn't produce? No. > > > > > > We also know that the combination diphenhydramine and alcohol > can > > > cause rapid and marked sedation. We know that alcohol is also > > acrid > > > and very scattering, dispersing, and moving. So it makes sense > > that > > > putting two scattering, dispersing, moving meds together would > > cause > > > even more marked and quicker sedation, i.e., deconstruction of > the > > > spirit qi. Similarly, diphenhydramine may potentize all drugs > > which a > > > sedative action (which, please be careful here, is not the > same as > > > spirit-quieting. Gotta be sure not to mix apples and oranges). > > > > > > At this point in time, I feel pretty comfortable hypothesizing > > that > > > diphenhydramine is an acrid, exterior-resolving medicinal > > according to > > > the logic of Chinese medicine. Now, to prove, this, we would > need > > to > > > go into the clinic and see if there is more marked drowsiness > and > > lack > > > of strength in patients who present a qi vacuity pattern who > take > > this > > > med, or if patients with a yin vacuity pattern who take this > drug > > tend > > > to have more nervousness and agitation. My limited experience > with > > > this drug, both as a patient and as a practitioner suggests > that > > this > > > is the case. However, we would need a certain sample size > before > > we > > > could come to any justifiable conclusions. > > > > > > Nevertheless, hopefully, this should help explain how I think > one > > can > > > begin hypothesizing about the CM description of Western meds. > > Maybe > > > someday there'll be a PDR with these kinds of descriptions in > > them. > > > Till then, we will have to figure these things out for > themselves. > > > However, this does require knowing Chinese medicine really > well in > > the > > > correct words. > > > > > > Good luck, > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > > > > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of the above three, which would you say has been affected > by > > the > > > > > astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) > effects > > of > > > > > benadryl? > > > > > > > > > > Fernando > > > > > > > > I think these all could be the results of over astringency > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 I don't know if Benadryl has any long-term side effects. However, as a Chinese medical practitioner, protection of my patient's righteous qi is a fundamental concern. I only likened Benadryl to opium in order to explain how I think Benadryl causes sedation. I was not implying that the deleterious effects of these two meds is equivalent. Obviously, there is some difference in degree, if not necessarily in kind. About antidepressants, yes, I do think that many (if not all antidepressants) achieve their effect by upbearing yang and out-thrusting depression. (Here I recommend caution in that I am using the word depression in two separate ways: first as the name of a Western psychiatric disorder and secondly as a technical term within CM.) Other strongly moving and scattering substances which cause unconsciuousness by deconstructing the spirit qi include alcohol. In my opinion, many Western meds achieve their effects by moving, scattering, dispersing, and draining (as CM technical terms) and, thus, their potential for adverse reactions. Even if all we do is categorize a medicinal as being draining (xie) instead of supplementing (bu), we can understand its potential for adverse reactions. In CM, draining is a species of attacking method (gong fa) as opposed to a supporting method (fu fa). Attacking methods attack and drain evil qi. Supporting methods support and supplement the righteous qi. What I'm getting at here is that, even if we got no farther than determining Benadryl was essentially a draining and attacking medicinal, we would then be able to determine who would be most likely to experience adverse reactions and what to do in terms of the prescriotion of Chinese meds to ameliorate those adverse reactions. Bob , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Similarly, although I might be willing to use > Benadryl to get to sleep on a single evening racked by acute insomnia, > I would not suggest it as a way to treat chronic insomnia. Thus, we do > not tend to use exterior-resolving meds for the treatment of insomnia. > >>>>Bob do we know that Benadryl has any severe long term bad effects? We know that opium does but does but does that mean Benadryl does? I find the concept of scattering (i.e., deconstructing) the spirit Qi intriguing as a cause of sedation. What is your take then on sedating anti-depressants > Alon > > - > pemachophel2001 > > Friday, December 28, 2001 11:42 AM > Re: Benadryl > > > > > No, I can think of no Chinese medical medicinal used for the treatment > of insomnia which is an exterior-resolver per se. That's because, in > Chinese medicine, we typically try not to damage the righteous qi to > force an effect. Rather, we search for the underlying disease > mechanism and then apply just the right counterbalancing treatment. > > This is exactly where Western medicine tends to go wrong. It forces > results by any means through its sheer potency. If opiates and > Benadryl work by scattering (i.e., deconstructing) the spirit qi, this > means that they are an inferior class of meds. In the Shen Nong Ben > Cao, inferior meds are used for the remedial treatment of > typically acute disease. However, they have a tendency to produce > adverse reactions. Therefore, they should be used with caution and > only as long as actually needed. Once that need is met, then they > should be imediately discontinued. In other words, a less wise > approach to praxis does not necessarily negate a medicinal's > description. > > Let me give you a real-life example. I once saw a patient who was > severely depressed. As we now know, there is no depression without > anxiety. A previous Chinese doctor from China had treated this teenage > female's depression with a Ma Huang decoction. That resulted in > lifting her depression, but it also caused amenorrhea and night sweats > due to damaging the young woman's yin-blood. She had a shao yin bodily > constitution, and, because she was a teenager, her kidneys were not > yet securely exuberant and gesundt. The doctor got an immediate > effect, but neither you nor I would probably call this high quality > Chinese medicine. Similarly, although I might be willing to use > Benadryl to get to sleep on a single evening racked by acute insomnia, > I would not suggest it as a way to treat chronic insomnia. Thus, we do > not tend to use exterior-resolving meds for the treatment of insomnia. > > As for the Chinese description of opiates being sour in flavor and, > therefore, astringing, I believe this is an incorrect assumption due > to being influenced by traditional Chinese descriptions of Ying Su Ke. > To me, the part of the Chinese description that I believe is valuable > is that opiates cause sleep and sedation by scattering the qi. > Securing and astringing is diametrically opposed, at least in my mind, > to scattering, dispersing, and out-thrusting. Securing medicinals, > such as Wu Wei Zi, tend to construct the spirit qi, thus quieting it, > not scattering it and causing lack of consciousness because of > deconstruction of the spirit brilliance. These are two diamertically > opposite methods of inducing reduced sensitivity and sleep. In other > words, spirit-quieting is not the same as causing sedation due to > deconstruction of the spirit qi. > > Bob > > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > > , " pemachophel2001 " < > > pemachophel2001> wrote: > > > > > > > > -- I believe published an article on the CM description of opiates > in > > > the Blue Poppy On-line Journal. If not, then the article is posted > > > under the Free Articles section at > www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com. > > > This is not my description. What I published is a translation of a > > > recent Chinese journal article. The article simply lumped all > opiates > > > together as having basically the same CM description (opium, > heroin, > > > morphine). > > > > in addition to being warm and blood moving, they are also listed in > > this article as being sour and having astringent properties. > Nowhere > > are they described as being specifically exterior releasing, though > > they are said to scatter qi and lift depression, two functions often > > seen in exterior relievers. However, they are not described as > > treating pain by exterior effects, but rather internal qi and blood > > moving effects. In addition, benadryl does not treat pain, it > merely > > sedates. It still is not convincing to me that exterior releasing > > accounts for benadryl's sedative properties. Is there any other > > medicinal that relieves insomnia by exterior resolving? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? > > > > since benadryl addresses wind tremors, not aching pain due to > > obstruction in Parkinsons, I do not see how exterior releasing could > be > > correct here. In fact, exterior releasing is usually > contraindicated > > in internal wind. Is there any other medicinal that relieves tremors > by > > exterior resolving? This med appears to extinguish wind. > > > > > > > > > > -- strong astringency definitely does not account for all > the > > > intended therapeutic effects nor all the adverse reactions and > > > combined effects of diphenhydramine. In creating a CM description, > > > you've got to hunt for the single effect that accounts for all the > > > information. > > > > I do not understand this contention,either. Medicinals have > multiple > > actions that account for their effects. For example, mu li exerts > some > > of its effects by astringency and others by heavy settling. Most > herbs > > have 2 or more functions? Why are you saying we need to identify > one > > mechanism. Even your example of opiates is indicated in the article > > you reference as both moving in the vessels and astringent in the > > yangming. > > > > For instance, while we do routinely treat allergic > > > dermatoses with acrid exterior-resolveing meds, we do not > > > routinely treat that kind of condition with securing and > astringing > > > meds. > > > > I grant that as a hole in my hypothesis, but I find yours to be > > unconvincing, as well. > > > > Nor do we treat any of the symptoms of PD with securing and > > > astringing. > > > > but we do use heavy settling and several meds have both heavy > settling > > and astringing effects (mu li, long gu) > > > > Likewise, securing and astringing is not used for the > > > relief of nausea. > > > > however, at least one astringent herb affects nausea via warming the > > stomach (rou dou kou). > > > > I am not comfortable with my description of benadryl, but I am > equally > > uncomfortable with making any clinical decisions on the assumption > that > > it relieves the exterior. > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 I agree. As far as I can tell, all the drugs that get us " high " are moving, up-bearing, and out-thrusting meds which transform essence into yang qi and then move that yang qi upward and outward. As these meds move the yang qi upward and outward, we feel high, lucid, more energetic, more sensitive and alive (all functions of the spirit brilliance). However, if and when the spirit is scattered and dispersed, then there is sedation and even unconsciousness. Because these meds catalyze the transformation of essence into yang qi and then scatter and disperse that qi, it takes more and more of these substances to achieve the high (since there is less essence to transform). Ultimately, after their righteous qi and essence have been severely depleted, addicts use simply to try to feel normal as opposed to sick. Bob , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > What is your take then on sedating anti-depressants > > Alon > > > I bet its similar, because antidepressants probably move and lift qi, > which would result in sedation due to overdispersal. I bet that is why > marijuana is initially stimulating and has been used to treat > depression by the eclectics, but also induces sleep. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 As a Chinese doctor, I would say that those patients who do well on yang-upbearing and depression-out-thrusting, scattering, and dispersing meds are the ones with wholy replete disease mechanisms and a " habitual bodily exuberance. " Those who are either qi or yin vacuous tend to have, in my own clinical experience, the most and most severe adverse reactions. Interesting, as readers will see in James Lake's and my book, Chinese Medical Psychiatry, when Chinese meds are prescribed based on the patient's personal pattern along with antidepressants and other such pyschotropic Western meds, patients are able to get a better therapeutic effects with less side effects. According to Dr. Lake, most of the adverse reactions of Western psychotropic drugs are dose-related. Bob , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > , " Ruth Goldenberg " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > > >>>You know Todd I still have trouble with that concept. Why then so many people that are severely depressed do so well on some of these drugs and can stay on them for life with very little side effects? Some do so well that they would tell you they have never been so phisicaly healthy.This would never be true for opeum of example > > Alon > > actually, plenty of people do well on natural opium, as well. It was > used in european medicine for depression and awas considered milder > than any drugs (see Herbal Medicine by Weiss). > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 Ge Gen Tang and Qiang Huo Sheng Shi Tang. These two formulas suggest that acrid, windy, exterior-resolving medicinals may be used to treat tetany conditions associated with wind even though stopping or checking tetany may not be a listed function of the individual meds in either of these two formulas. Bob What do we by tetany here? is one question and then the second in my mind is can this be true. Certainly if it is do to rabbis for example, I know it will not. Alon - pemachophel2001 Monday, December 31, 2001 8:41 AM Re: Benadryl I think you would agree that one of the potential disease causes and mechanisms of tetany conditions (jing zheng) is wind in the channels and network vessels. Just a very quick look at Yeung Him-che's Chinese Herbs and Formulas Vol. 2 (it happens to be at my elbow as I write this) lists that as one of the patterns of tetany conditions. Under that heading, Yeung then suggests two formulas, Ge Gen Tang and Qiang Huo Sheng Shi Tang. These two formulas suggest that acrid, windy, exterior-resolving medicinals may be used to treat tetany conditions associated with wind even though stopping or checking tetany may not be a listed function of the individual meds in either of these two formulas. In that case, treating (zhi), coursing (shu), dispersing (xiao), dispelling (qu), or expelling (qu) wind would be enough in terms of requisite functions and tx principles. For instance, within Qiang Huo Sheng Shi Tang and according to B & G, Qiang Huo and Du Huo treat wind, Fang Feng, Gao Ben, and Chuan Xiong expel wind, and Man Jing Zi disperses wind.Bob , "1" <@i...> wrote:> , "pemachophel2001" <> pemachophel2001> wrote:> > That's because, in > > Chinese medicine, we typically try not to damage the righteous qi to > > force an effect. > > Interesting perspective. So what I should be considering here is that > many exterior releasing substance may lead to qi xu, one sx of which is > sleepiness.> > Fair enough. But what about the tremors? does any exterior relaser > calm wind? Well, fang feng and ju hua both do, but is that due to > their exterior releasing or some other property?> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2001 Along these lines, having has the opportunity to check several of my case files, I have never personally seen any patient's tongue fur become thicker from taking Benadryl. However, we're only talking about the 3-4 files I could remember where the issue of Benadryl came up and which I could put my hands on. >>>Bob I have seen several. I have also seen pealed tongues. I thing in general we understand each other very well. I am just making points for the sake of discussion. And to always keep any discussion in a clinical perspective rather than ideas only. Also CM is an empirical medicine that is every time you see a patient it is an experiment in the sense that you give a formula and see if what the theory/diagnosis you have formed is correct Alon - pemachophel2001 Monday, December 31, 2001 8:50 AM Re: Benadryl Alon,I think you would agree that the scientific process is to formulate a hypothesis based on some preliminary evidence. That evidence may be some clinical impressions or it may be something in the literature. My process has been to start with a hypothesis based on either of these two types of preliminary evidence. However, you and I both agree that one must proceed to verifying the hypothesis by research in live human subjects.Along these lines, having has the opportunity to check several of my case files, I have never personally seen any patient's tongue fur become thicker from taking Benadryl. However, we're only talking about the 3-4 files I could remember where the issue of Benadryl came up and which I could put my hands on.One of the reasons that I suggested Benadryl as a sample topic is because I have personally taken it. Several years ago I had severe recurrent, recalcitrant hives which Chinese meds weren't effective for in terms of acute relief. So I have some personal experience with this med. I can also say that it did not turn my tongue fur thicker or yellower.Bob , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> In my experience, most exterior-resolves do not actually cause > sensible perspiration unless used specifically for the purpose of > "breaking a fever" in the case of an exterior pattern> > >>>>>Bob,> I agree but if it is so strong that it results in essence spirit dispersion then I would think it should> As to you other questions you are absolutely correct in asking for the number of patients, which of course I do not have enough off, to make any kind of statement. But to me that is also the only way one should try to come up with TCM principles. Since in the other speculation no signs are involved and to me they always take precedence> Alon> - > pemachophel2001 > > Friday, December 28, 2001 11:18 AM> Re: Benadryl> > > Alon,> > In my experience, most exterior-resolvers do not actually cause > sensible perspiration unless used specifically for the purpose of > "breaking a fever" in the case of an exterior pattern.> > As for the thick, yellow tongue fur you have observed, that is > interesting. The questions I would need answered before even venturing > a guess here would be:> > 1. How many patients are we talking about (i.e., what's your sample > size)?> > 2. What were these particular patients' A) bodily constitution, B) > sex, C) age, D) conditions for which they were seeking treatment, and > E) Chinese medical patterns?> > 3. What other therapies were they concomitantly using?> > 4. What were their diets?> > Actually, even before I hear your answers to these questions, I will > suggest one possible hypothesis. As I suggested, the acrid, strongly > scattering nature of diphenhydramine can A) scatter the qi and B) > damage yin. Since the lung qi is rooted in the spleen qi, strongly > draining the lung qi might result in damaging the spleen qi. If the > spleen qi was too weak to move and transform water and grains, these > might accumulate and transform into food stagnation. Since stagnant > food impedes the free flow of yang qi, it tends to cause or aggravate > qi stagnation. If such qi stagnation transforms into depressive heat, > then one could get thick, yellow fur.> > Another scenario might be damage to yin fluids of the lungs and large > intestine with acumulation and binding of the stools. This could also > result in thick, yellow fur.> > Since there are at least two scenarios that I can think of for a > strongly acrid exterior-resolver resulting in thick, yellow tongue > fur, we would need to know specifically about the patients in which > you saw these twongue changes after having taken Benadryl.> > Also, in a work on tongue changes due to Western medical drugs, I can > find no reference to diphenhydramine causing any thickening or > yellowing of the tongue fur. This suggests that such changes you have > observed are idiosyncratic. What my sources do say is that Benadryl > causes xerostomia, dryness of the mouth, and I think we've adequately > accounted for that.> > Bob> > , "Ruth Goldenberg" <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote:> > > > - > > diphendydramine> > >>>Bob,> > Yes it does however, I was wandering why would such a strong spicy > surface releaving medication does not cause sweating and why it is > more common to find a thick yellow tongue coat than a real Yin Def > tongue?> > Alon> > > > pemachophel2001 > > > > Friday, December 28, 2001 9:48 AM> > Re: Benadryl> > > > > > Alon,> > > > Yes. That's pretty interesting. So that fact seems to support my > > working hypothesis as well.> > > > Bob> > > > , "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote:> > > Nice exercise Bob.> > > This would also explain why wu wei zi helps the sideeffects> > > Alon> > > > > > - > > > pemachophel2001 > > > > > > Thursday, December 27, 2001 12:28 PM> > > Re: Benadryl> > > > > > > > > Having just returned from Xmas in Texas (an experience of it's > > own), > > > I'm going to jump in here instead of responding to each of the > > points > > > and queries made in this thread.> > > > > > First of all, Fernando, I think you've made a very interesting > > > discovery, i.e., that Benadryl is a formula, not a single > > medicinal. I > > > didn't know this at the time I suggested this as an example. > From > > the > > > source I looked at (James W. Long's The Essential Guide to > > > Prescription Drugs), I wrongly assumed that Benadryl was > simply > > > diphendydramine. My mistake. What this means is that, in order > to > > work > > > out a CM description of this medicine, we must first work out > the > > CM > > > descriptions of pseudoephedrine, acetaminophen, AND > > diphenhydramine.> > > > > > The good news is that I don't think anyone should have any big > > > difficulty with assuming that pseudoephedrine is an upbearing, > > > out-thrusting exterior-resolver analogous to Ma Huang. Not > only > > does > > > it resolve the exterior, it also diffuses the lungs. However, > like > > Ma > > > Huang, on the down side, its scattering and diffusing nature > may > > also > > > damage both qi and yin. Since yang is nothing other than a lot > of > > qi > > > and yin and yang are mutually rooted, damage qi and yin enough > and > > you > > > could also damage yang, depending on the patient's habitual > bodily > > > (constitution) and other contributing factors.> > > > > > Acetaminophen is also relatively easy to deal with in CM > terms. As > > > already pointed out, its two main uses are as an analgesic and > > > anti-inflammatory. The single key statement about pain is > that, if > > > there is pain, there is no free flow. Based on this "fact," > all > > > analgesics must, ipso facto according to the logic of CM, > somehow > > > restore free flow. The main categories of Chinese meds which > > restore > > > free flow of the qi and blood in the body via a vis pain are > A) > > > exterior-resolvers, B) qi-rectifiers, C) blood-quickeners, and > > > D)wind-treating medicinals. So acetaminophen should probably > be > > > classified as one of these types of Chinese meds. Now let's > look > > at > > > inflammation. Inflammation may or may not be detectable via > the > > > four examinations. In cases where it is not detectable by one > of > > the > > > four examinations, such as in many cases of tennis elbow, it > is > > > typically reframed into pain. In that case, we're back to pain > > again. > > > In cases where there is detectable heat in a CM sense, we need > to > > look > > > at all the different ways of eliminating heat in CM. Heat may > be > > > cleared using bitter, cold medicinals. However, it may also be > > > out-thrust when that heat is depressive in nature (as is heat > due > > to > > > traumatic injury). Yet another method is to seep dampness to > "lead > > > yang into the the yin tract." > > > > > > I don't think we can make a case for acetaminophen being a > bitter, > > > cold heat-clearing medicinal if we look at all its clinical > uses, > > > adverse reactions, and its reactions with other substances and > > > situations. That leaves the probability that it both stops > pain > > and > > > clears heat by somehow freeing the flow and resolving > depression. > > > (Here I do not mean necessarily liver depression. Here I'm > using > > the > > > word the way Zhu Dan-xi used it.) > > > > > > That brings us back again to the same four categories of > Chinese > > > medicines suggested above. Since acetaminophen achieves an > effect > > on > > > pains other than that which are characteristic of blood > > > stasis, my guess at the moment is that it is not simply a > > > blood-quickening med. Anything that moves the qi strongly > will, at > > > least to some extent, also move the blood. This is based on > the > > > statement, the qi moves the blood; if the qi moves, the blood > > moves. > > > If acetaminophen is a blood-quickener, it is a blood-quickener > > like > > > Chuan Xiong and Yuan Hu Suo which move the qi within the > blood. > > What > > > this really means is that these two meds straddle the fence > > between > > > qi-rectifiers and blood-quickeners. However, don't forget that > an > > > exterior-resolver such as Bai Zhi is also a very effective > > > pain-stopping medicinal which is an exterior-resolver. So this > med > > > could be an exterior-resolver. > > > > > > Because of time and the necessity of seeing patients and > running > > Blue > > > Poppy, I'm going to leave acetaminophen here at this point. > > Instead of > > > actually working out its CM description, I'm going to move > onto > > > diphenhydramine. We're in the ballpark with acetaminophen in > any > > case. > > > What we know is that it is strongly moving in nature, and > strongly > > > moving medicinals tend to be acrid in terms of taste. Also, > strong > > > moving medicinals are also attacking medicinal according to > the > > logic > > > of CM. This means they damage the righteous. Specifically, > what > > this > > > mostly means is that they scatter the qi (and, therefore, > yang) > > and > > > may damage yin (and, therefore, blood and body fluids). > > > > > > What are the clinical applications of diphenhydramine?> > > > > > 1. Relief of allergic rhinitis> > > 2. Relief of allergic dermatoses> > > 3. Prevention & relief of motion sickness> > > 4. Partial relief of symptoms of Parkinson's disease> > > 5. Nonaddictive yet effective (i.e., strong) sedative and > hypnotic> > > > > > In CM, we know that opiates, also strong and effective > sedatives, > > > achieve their effect by being acrid, dispersing and scattering > > > exterior-resolvers. Consciousness is a function of the spirit > > > brilliance which is, in turn, nothing other than a certain > > quantity of > > > yang qi accumulated in the heart and nourished by the blood > and > > > essence. Opiates achieve their sedation by scattering or > > > deconstructing the spirit brilliance. > > > > > > That being said, could a strongly scattering and dispersing > > > exterior-resolver also be used to treat allergic rhinitis and > > > allergice dermatoses according to the prescriptive logic of > CM? > > Most > > > definitely so. Acrid exterior-resolvers are routinely used in > CM > > to > > > treat both allergic rhinitis and allergic dermatoses (with one > of > > the > > > most common allergic deramtological complaint being urticaria > or > > > hives). The active stage of allergic rhinitis and the active > stage > > of > > > allergic dermatoses are both considered exterior pattern > > conditions, > > > meaning not necessarily that they are caused by an externally > > > contracted evil but are manifesting in the exterior (in > Chinese, > > > external and exterior are different words and have different > > meanings > > > and imlications). In the case of allergic rhinitis, there is > the > > > assumption that there is an externally contracted wind evil > > (meaning > > > some useen airborne pathogen). In the case of allergic > dermatoses, > > > there may or may not be an externally contracted wind evil, > but > > the > > > fact that symptoms appear in the exterior means that the > disease > > > manifests and exterior pattern.> > > > > > Ok, are any exterior-resolvers ever used in CM to treat nausea > and > > > vomiting? Yes, Chai Hu, Sheng Jiang, Zi Su Ye, and Ge Gen are > all > > > exterior-resolvers which can be used to treat nausea and > vomiting. > > > This is because all nausea and vomiting involves upward > > counterflow of > > > the stomach qi no matter what its other disease mechanims, and > > > exterior-resolving medicinals and qi-rectifying medicinals are > > often > > > used interchangeably to rectfy the qi, thus downbearing > > counterflow > > > and harmonizing the stomach. So, within CM, it there are other > > > medicinals which are used to both resolve the exterior and > rectify > > the > > > qi and thereby treat allergic rhinitis, allergic dermatoses, > and > > > nausea and vomiting. Therefore, provisionally, I think we can > > > hypothesize that diphendydramine is a very strong acrid, > > > exterior-resolver. I say strong because it causes marked > sedation > > in > > > 50% of those who take it at recommeneded dosages. However, we > now > > must > > > see if that description would account for all its known > adverse > > > reactions and any effects potentized by other combinations or > > factors.> > > > > > What about the partial relief of Parkonsonian symptoms? For > that > > we'd > > > need to know which symptoms of Parkinson's this med relieves. > > > Parkinson's includes tremors but more than tremors. For > instance, > > > there is rigidity, hypokinesia, and muscular aching. > > Hypothetically, > > > it is easy to see how an acrid exterior-resolver might > positively > > > affect rigidity and muscular aching since there is very little > > > difference between exterior-resolver and wind-treating > medicinals > > in > > > CM and these two classes of meds are often used > interchangeably. > > In > > > any case, my sources do not specify what PD symptoms > > diphenhydramine > > > benefits, and, until we know those, anything we say is > complete, > > > unsupported conjecture.> > > > > > The not so serious, expected and unavoidable possible side > effects > > of > > > diphenhydramine are (according to Dr. Long): drowsiness,a > sense of > > > weakness, dryness of the nose, mouth, and throat, and > > constipation. > > > Could all of these be the result of a very strong acrid, > > > exterior-resolving, qi out-thrusting med. Yes. Drowsiness and > lack > > of > > > strength are due to scattering and dispersal of the qi. A dry > > nose, > > > mouth, and throat and constipation may be due to damage of > fluids. > > In > > > addition, constipation might be a combination of both fluid > damage > > and > > > dispsersal of lung qi due to the interior-exterior > relationship of > > the > > > lungs and large intestine in CM.> > > > > > More serious adverse reactions include skin rash and hives, > > headache, > > > dizziness, inability to concentrate, nervousness, blurred or > > double > > > vision, and difficult urination. Can a strong acrid > > exterior-resolver > > > treat hives in one person but cause them in another? According > to > > CM, > > > the answer is yes. If a person has less blood, damage to > fluids > > may > > > result in damage to blood (blood and fluids share a common > > source). In > > > that case, blood may fail to control the qi which may stir > > > frenetically and counterflow upward and outward, thus creating > > blood > > > vacuity-internal wind hives. How about headache? Yes, again, a > > strong > > > acrid, exterior-resolver may damage yin, thus leading to > failure > > of > > > yin in its control of yang. If yang counterflows upward, > viola, > > > headache, AND dizziness. How about nervousness? Yes again. If > an > > > acrid, exterior-resolver damages yin and yin fails to control > yang > > and > > > yang stirs frenetically, there may be nervous agitation and > > > restlessness. Lack of conctentration? This may be due to > either or > > > some combination of scattered qi not constructing the spirit > or > > yin > > > and blood not nourishing the spirit. Both may be a side effect > of > > the > > > use of a very strong acrid exterior-resolver. Double vision > and > > > blurred vision are mostly due to liver blood vacuity, and we > know > > that > > > strong acrid exterior-resolvers may damage the blood. That > leaves > > > difficult urination or prostatism. One of the > contraindications of > > > Benadryl is prostatic hypertrophy. In CM, prostatic > hypertrophy is > > > usually due to a combination of blood stasis and phlegm > > obstructing > > > the free flow of urine and qi vacuity failing to empower the > > discharge > > > of urine. Could a strong acrid exterior-resolver disperse so > much > > qi > > > that there was not enough left to push the urine out of the > body? > > If > > > it were strong enough to scatter the spirit qi and cause > sedation, > > I > > > would say yes. So once again, all the more serious adverse > > reactions > > > of diphgenhydramine can be explained by seeing this med as a > > strong > > > acrid exterior-resolver.> > > > > > What about even more serious adverse reactions? Leukopenia and > > > platelet destruction. Leukopenia manifests as weakened > cellular > > > immunity with fever, sore throat, and infections. Fever and > sore > > > throat may be due to qi vacuity, yin vacuity, and/or > contraction > > of > > > external evils. If the defensive qi is scattered, this leads > to > > > nonsecuring of the exterior with easy contraction of external > > evils. > > > Platelet destruction leads to abnormal bleeding or bruising. > This > > is > > > also typically due to qi vacuity not managing or containing > the > > blood > > > within its vessels. Therefore, it is possible for a strongly > > > qi-scattering and yin-damaging medicinal to cause these > reactions > > in > > > patients whose qi and/or yin is not strong and exuberant.> > > > > > Diphenhydramine may also shorten the menstrual cycle. This can > be > > due > > > either to qi vacuity not containing the blood or yin vacuity > > giving > > > rise to vacuity heat. Diphenhydramine may activate latent > > epilepsy, > > > galucoma, and prostatism. We've already dealt with prostatism > > above. > > > Epilepsy is usually associated with stirring wind, and we've > seen > > that > > > damage to yin may lead to loss of control over the yang qi > which > > may > > > then stir frenetically or hyperactively. Glaucoma is reframed > into > > > clear-eyed blindness in Chinese medicine, and the main cause > is > > blood > > > vacuity. We've already seen above how a strong acrid > > exterior-resolver > > > may damage yin-blood-fluids and lead to vision problems.> > > > > > One of the cautions recorded for using this drug is in case of > > > bronchial asthma, bronchitis, or pneumonia since this med may > > thicken > > > mucus and make it more diffciult to expectorate. Could a > strong > > acrid > > > exterior-resolver do that? Yes, if not combined with > > > phlegm-transforming, fluid-engendering meds.> > > > > > This drug should be used with caution and reduced dosage in > > infants > > > and children because it can easily cause adverse reactions on > the > > > brain and nervous system. In CM we say, infants have a pure > yang > > body. > > > This means that yin and yang are not well mutually rooted > > > intercontrolling in infants. Therefore, yang easily becomes > > > hyperactive, and a strong acrid exterior-resolver could > definitely > > > aggravate such a tendency.> > > > > > Similarly, this drug may cause drowsiness, dizziness, > > unstreadiness > > > and impairment in thinking, judgement, and memory in those > over > > 60. > > > However, the Nei Jing says that, at 40 years, yin is > automatically > > > half. Further, due to decline in spleen function, there is > less > > qi. > > > Thus the above reactions are due to scattering of the qi and > > damage to > > > yin in those with less qi and yin due to age.> > > > > > What happens from an overdose of diphenhydramine? Marked > > drowsiness, > > > confusion, incoordination, unsteadiness, muscle tremors, > stupor, > > coma, > > > seizures, fever, flushed face, weak pulse, shallow breathing. > > Anything > > > that scattering of qi and damage to yin wouldn't produce? No.> > > > > > We also know that the combination diphenhydramine and alcohol > can > > > cause rapid and marked sedation. We know that alcohol is also > > acrid > > > and very scattering, dispersing, and moving. So it makes sense > > that > > > putting two scattering, dispersing, moving meds together would > > cause > > > even more marked and quicker sedation, i.e., deconstruction of > the > > > spirit qi. Similarly, diphenhydramine may potentize all drugs > > which a > > > sedative action (which, please be careful here, is not the > same as > > > spirit-quieting. Gotta be sure not to mix apples and oranges).> > > > > > At this point in time, I feel pretty comfortable hypothesizing > > that > > > diphenhydramine is an acrid, exterior-resolving medicinal > > according to > > > the logic of Chinese medicine. Now, to prove, this, we would > need > > to > > > go into the clinic and see if there is more marked drowsiness > and > > lack > > > of strength in patients who present a qi vacuity pattern who > take > > this > > > med, or if patients with a yin vacuity pattern who take this > drug > > tend > > > to have more nervousness and agitation. My limited experience > with > > > this drug, both as a patient and as a practitioner suggests > that > > this > > > is the case. However, we would need a certain sample size > before > > we > > > could come to any justifiable conclusions.> > > > > > Nevertheless, hopefully, this should help explain how I think > one > > can > > > begin hypothesizing about the CM description of Western meds. > > Maybe > > > someday there'll be a PDR with these kinds of descriptions in > > them. > > > Till then, we will have to figure these things out for > themselves. > > > However, this does require knowing Chinese medicine really > well in > > the > > > correct words.> > > > > > Good luck,> > > > > > Bob > > > > > > , "1" <@i...> wrote:> > > > , "fbernall" <fbernall@a...> > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of the above three, which would you say has been affected > by > > the > > > > > astringent (providing that benadryl is an astringent) > effects > > of > > > > > benadryl?> > > > > > > > > > Fernando> > > > > > > > I think these all could be the results of over astringency> > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
