Benadryl

[Guest guest]

, " pemachophel2001 " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

 

Bob

 

The best we can do is label the thread benadryl, so you can easily find

the thread when you return. sorry, but I do not have the ability to

extract and save a single thread. Have a nice vacation.

 

I'll start the ball rolling by suggesting

> that Western antihistamines aggravate or may even cause prostatism due

> to their ability to scatter the qi. Since, in CM, the flow of urine

> is dependent on the power of the qi, a medicine that strongly

> disperses or scatters the qi might damage the kidney and bladder qi

> mechanism. If that's the hypothesis, does all other clinical (not

> pharmacodynamic) information about antihistamines fit this hypothesis

> when that information is reframed into CM terminology and the four

> examinations?

>

> I'm going to also suggest that we talk about a specific antihistamine

> rather than the whole class. How about Benadryl (diphenhydraine)?

>

[Guest guest]

> , " pemachophel2001 " <

> pemachophel2001> wrote:

 

How about Benadryl (diphenhydraine)?

 

I'll elaborate on what I wrote earlier. I think this med is ascending

and floating because it exerts a strong effect on the upper body

(sinuses), but also on the surface (skin). However, to be accurate, it

affects the skin in the lower body as well. To continue,it does have

some internal effects. An EMT told me in a pinch it can be used to

slow anaphylaxis which manifests as SOB. So this is a lung function.

In TCM, the lungs are related to both the sinuses and the skin.

Finally, the cause of the allergic conditons treated by benadryl are

usually attributed to exterior wind, to which the lung is most

sensitive in TCM. In fact, we might go so far as to say that this med

enters the lung channel and relieves the exterior, at least in part.

 

Since urination requires a descent of qi, anything that moves qi up and

to the surface would inhibit this possibly. However, this is not

always the case. Remember ma huang promotes urination and LU & BL are

related by the midday/midnight rule. I don't have a PDR at home, so I

don't know benadryl's other effects offhand. does it cause drowsiness?

 

I think it is drying becasue it dries up secretions like excess mucus.

Drying may damage fluids, also inhibiting urine. Many exterior

releasing herbs used for sinuses are warm, but not all (consider ge

gen, bo he). It is hard for me to say this is warm. It treats red

rashes on one hand, but treats clear copious discharge on the other.

 

BTW, I obviously think this is a relevant exercise. Any substance can

be described by both TCM and modern pharmacology. Knowing the TCM may

allow one to mitigate side effects and apply in only certain

constitutions. So while I think there is a role for a purely

pharmacological approach to using meds, I disagree with Alon that

chinese herbs should be used with TCM and western meds according to

pharmacology and never the twain shall meet. In fact, pharmaceutical

companies are now using the human genome to develop research to see if

certain meds work better in certain genotypes with less risk than in

others. Modern bian zheng?

> >

[Guest guest]

does it cause drowsiness

>>>Yes and is used as a sleeping pill. It does not treat the SOB but reduces the allergic effect so that the tub is less inflamed and there is less phlegm. Epinephrine is usually used to directly open lungs and bronchi to treat short breath. It has a very drying effect. Due to atropine like action is also speeds the heart. Remember that edema is a big issue, probably of TCM lung type.

Alon

Alon

 

-

1

Friday, December 21, 2001 5:14 PM

Re: Benadryl

> , "pemachophel2001" <> pemachophel2001> wrote:How about Benadryl (diphenhydraine)?I'll elaborate on what I wrote earlier. I think this med is ascending and floating because it exerts a strong effect on the upper body (sinuses), but also on the surface (skin). However, to be accurate, it affects the skin in the lower body as well. To continue,it does have some internal effects. An EMT told me in a pinch it can be used to slow anaphylaxis which manifests as SOB. So this is a lung function. In TCM, the lungs are related to both the sinuses and the skin. Finally, the cause of the allergic conditons treated by benadryl are usually attributed to exterior wind, to which the lung is most sensitive in TCM. In fact, we might go so far as to say that this med enters the lung channel and relieves the exterior, at least in part.Since urination requires a descent of qi, anything that moves qi up and to the surface would inhibit this possibly. However, this is not always the case. Remember ma huang promotes urination and LU & BL are related by the midday/midnight rule. I don't have a PDR at home, so I don't know benadryl's other effects offhand. does it cause drowsiness?I think it is drying becasue it dries up secretions like excess mucus. Drying may damage fluids, also inhibiting urine. Many exterior releasing herbs used for sinuses are warm, but not all (consider ge gen, bo he). It is hard for me to say this is warm. It treats red rashes on one hand, but treats clear copious discharge on the other.BTW, I obviously think this is a relevant exercise. Any substance can be described by both TCM and modern pharmacology. Knowing the TCM may allow one to mitigate side effects and apply in only certain constitutions. So while I think there is a role for a purely pharmacological approach to using meds, I disagree with Alon that chinese herbs should be used with TCM and western meds according to pharmacology and never the twain shall meet. In fact, pharmaceutical companies are now using the human genome to develop research to see if certain meds work better in certain genotypes with less risk than in others. Modern bian zheng?Todd> >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

 

>I think this med is ascending

> and floating because it exerts a strong effect on the upper body

> (sinuses), but also on the surface (skin). However, to be

accurate, it

> affects the skin in the lower body as well.

 

The last sentence seems to suggest that a substance

which is " ascending and floating " generally only

affects the upper body. Is that what you mean?

 

Since Bob's intention on this thread was to

describe a western med in traditional Chinese

terms, can you specify what Chinese terms

you have in mind when you say " ascneding and

floating " ?

 

>I disagree with Alon that

> chinese herbs should be used with TCM and western meds according to

> pharmacology and never the twain shall meet. In fact,

pharmaceutical

> companies are now using the human genome to develop research to see

if

> certain meds work better in certain genotypes with less risk than

in

> others. Modern bian zheng?

>

With what little I know about genetic research

of this type, it strikes me that it far more

closely approaches the theoretical perspective

of Chinese medicine, as it attempts to comprehend

and address the individual at a fundamental level.

 

I hope to get it on the research agenda of

the new Complexity and Research

Center recently formed in Beijing.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

 

>

> The last sentence seems to suggest that a substance

> which is " ascending and floating " generally only

> affects the upper body. Is that what you mean?

 

no, I guess not. they also affect the lower body by raising that which

is abnormally downbearing. However, the action of ascending herbs when

used in exterior conditions (which is what I was describing -- acute

sinusitis and acute rash) is to move to the surface, lungs, throat and

head. according to Wiseman in fundamentals..., all the local sx of

exterior heat, wind and cold are upper body sx (headache, nasal

congestion, sore throat, cough, etc.) Such herbs when used to affect

the mid or lower body usually address qi depression (bo he, chai hu) or

sinking qi (sheng ma, ge gen, qiang huo, bai zhi), not exteriro

complaints.

>

> Since Bob's intention on this thread was to

> describe a western med in traditional Chinese

> terms, can you specify what Chinese terms

> you have in mind when you say " ascneding and

> floating " ?

 

ascending is the same as wiseman's upbearing (sheng2). floating is a

translation of the chinese fu (don't know the tone, but it is also a

pulse, the one felt in exterior conditions). Ascending I understand to

mean having a vertical upwards direction, while floating means moving

from internal to external.

 

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

 

> I think it is drying becasue it dries up secretions like excess

mucus.

> Drying may damage fluids, also inhibiting urine. Many exterior

> releasing herbs used for sinuses are warm, but not all (consider ge

> gen, bo he). It is hard for me to say this is warm. It treats red

> rashes on one hand, but treats clear copious discharge on the other.

>

 

In the process of working out a CM description of a Western med,

should such WM Rx description/classification be similar to that of an

individual herb say like bo he? Or should WMs be classified as

formulas?

 

I ask this because while doing a little research on benadryl

(www.benadryl.com), we find that the drug itself is really a formula

with the following active ingredients and dosage: Diphenhydramine

Hydrochloride 25 mg, Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride 30 mg, and

Acetaminophen 500 mg. (there are other ingridients used mainly for

color and emulsion)

 

A search on Acetaminophen reveals that it is the most widely used

pharmaceutical analgesic and antipyretic possessing a slightly bitter

taste. (BITTER TASTE AND AN ANTIPYRETIC?)

www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic819.htm

 

A search on DIPHENHYDRAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE resulted with this

information:

 

*USES:

This compound is used as an antihistamine and for its

anticholinergic (drying) and sedative effects. It is also used for

allergic conjunctivitis due to foods, for mild, uncomplicated allergic

skin manifestations of urticaria and angioedema, for amelioration of

allergic reactions to blood or plasma, for dermatographism, in therapy

for anaphylactic reactions adjunctive to epinephrine and other

standard measures after the acute manifestations have been controlled,

for active and prophylactic treatment of motion sickness and for

parkinsonism. (MAYBE LIKE FENG FENG TYPE OF ACTION? COULD THERE BE

SOME LIVER CHANNEL AFFINITY HERE?) It is used as an antiemetic and has

local anesthetic properties. This compound is also used in

preparations for the relief of cough and in the prevention and

treatment of radiation sickness, nausea and vomiting.

http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/Chem_H & S/NTP_Chem1/Radian147-24

-0.html

 

Pseudoephedrine is usually used topically in nose sprays or in

antihistamines to dilate the nose and to fight the sedative properties

of most antihistamines. (MAYBE TO OFFSET THE SEDATIVE PROPERTIES OF

THE ABOVE INGREDIENT?)

 

 

(www.druginfonet.com/faq/new/DRUG_FAQ/Pseudoephedrine_Hydrochloride.ht

m

 

I also gave a little more thought to your suggestion of adding

fu ling to promote urination. Here's a question: since these herbs are

usually drying, wouldn't the use of a diuretic type herb such as fu

ling accelerate the drying and thus lead to more yin damage?

 

Also, since the contraindication for antihistamines in WM is more for

those with BPH, could it be that antihistamines actually increase

inflamation thus reducing urine flow? Bob proposed that the mechanism

is due to a scattering of Kd and Bl qi. In light of BPH, does that

make sense?

 

 

> BTW, I obviously think this is a relevant exercise. Any substance

can be described by both TCM and modern pharmacology. Knowing the

TCM may allow one to mitigate side effects and apply in only certain

> constitutions.

>

 

Me too, I welcome this type of thinking and in my mind it facilitates

integration.

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/22/01 10:09:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, jramholz writes:

 

 

Isn't anybody going to do the Shen Nong thing and taste benadryl to see what meridians and organs it's induced to? It doesn't seem like there are agreed upon rules to deconstruct a material this way. How can consensus or objectivity be found?

 

 

 

I did - it definitely enters the Leg Tai Yang - Will

[Guest guest]

 

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

> ascending is the same as wiseman's upbearing (sheng2).

 

I think you mean sheng1 (for those who can

see it Éý.), which means " to rise up " or

as Nigel puts it, " upbear. " On p. 639 of

the PD, there's an entry for " upfloater " ,

sheng1 fu2 yao4, which I guess is how you

are classifying benadryl.

 

floating is a

> translation of the chinese fu (don't know the tone, but it is also

a

> pulse, the one felt in exterior conditions).

 

It's fu2 £¨¸¡) and literally means " floating " .

 

Ascending I understand to

> mean having a vertical upwards direction, while floating means

moving

> from internal to external.

 

I'm not sure that fu2 always means moving

from internal to external. I think it

simply means floating, i.e. at the exterior,

regardless of whether whatever is observed

as floating was ever located more internally.

Something need not have moved from the interior

to the exterior to be floating at the exterior.

 

I don't intend to be simply nitpicking, but

I'm trying to follow this thread and see

where it leads. I think if and when we apply

Chinese terms to Western pharmaceuticals

we need to be especially precise in the

usages.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

With what little I know about genetic researchof this type, it strikes me that it far moreclosely approaches the theoretical perspectiveof Chinese medicine, as it attempts to comprehendand address the individual at a fundamental level.

>>>and that is not part of WM?

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Friday, December 21, 2001 11:13 PM

Re: Benadryl

>I think this med is ascending > and floating because it exerts a strong effect on the upper body > (sinuses), but also on the surface (skin). However, to be accurate, it > affects the skin in the lower body as well.The last sentence seems to suggest that a substancewhich is "ascending and floating" generally onlyaffects the upper body. Is that what you mean?Since Bob's intention on this thread was todescribe a western med in traditional Chineseterms, can you specify what Chinese termsyou have in mind when you say "ascneding andfloating"?>I disagree with Alon that > chinese herbs should be used with TCM and western meds according to > pharmacology and never the twain shall meet. In fact, pharmaceutical > companies are now using the human genome to develop research to see if > certain meds work better in certain genotypes with less risk than in > others. Modern bian zheng?> With what little I know about genetic researchof this type, it strikes me that it far moreclosely approaches the theoretical perspectiveof Chinese medicine, as it attempts to comprehendand address the individual at a fundamental level.I hope to get it on the research agenda ofthe new Complexity and ResearchCenter recently formed in Beijing.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

In the process of working out a CM description of a Western med, should such WM Rx description/classification be similar to that of an individual herb say like bo he? Or should WMs be classified as formulas?>>>That is an excellent point

Alon

 

-

fbernall

Saturday, December 22, 2001 6:57 AM

Re: Benadryl

, "1" <@i...> wrote:> I think it is drying becasue it dries up secretions like excess mucus. > Drying may damage fluids, also inhibiting urine. Many exterior > releasing herbs used for sinuses are warm, but not all (consider ge > gen, bo he). It is hard for me to say this is warm. It treats red > rashes on one hand, but treats clear copious discharge on the other.> In the process of working out a CM description of a Western med, should such WM Rx description/classification be similar to that of an individual herb say like bo he? Or should WMs be classified as formulas?I ask this because while doing a little research on benadryl (www.benadryl.com), we find that the drug itself is really a formula with the following active ingredients and dosage: Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride 25 mg, Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride 30 mg, and Acetaminophen 500 mg. (there are other ingridients used mainly for color and emulsion)A search on Acetaminophen reveals that it is the most widely used pharmaceutical analgesic and antipyretic possessing a slightly bitter taste. (BITTER TASTE AND AN ANTIPYRETIC?) www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic819.htmA search on DIPHENHYDRAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE resulted with this information:*USES: This compound is used as an antihistamine and for its anticholinergic (drying) and sedative effects. It is also used for allergic conjunctivitis due to foods, for mild, uncomplicated allergic skin manifestations of urticaria and angioedema, for amelioration of allergic reactions to blood or plasma, for dermatographism, in therapy for anaphylactic reactions adjunctive to epinephrine and other standard measures after the acute manifestations have been controlled, for active and prophylactic treatment of motion sickness and for parkinsonism. (MAYBE LIKE FENG FENG TYPE OF ACTION? COULD THERE BE SOME LIVER CHANNEL AFFINITY HERE?) It is used as an antiemetic and has local anesthetic properties. This compound is also used in preparations for the relief of cough and in the prevention and treatment of radiation sickness, nausea and vomiting.http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/Chem_H & S/NTP_Chem1/Radian147-24-0.htmlPseudoephedrine is usually used topically in nose sprays or in antihistamines to dilate the nose and to fight the sedative properties of most antihistamines. (MAYBE TO OFFSET THE SEDATIVE PROPERTIES OF THE ABOVE INGREDIENT?)(www.druginfonet.com/faq/new/DRUG_FAQ/Pseudoephedrine_Hydrochloride.htmTodd, I also gave a little more thought to your suggestion of adding fu ling to promote urination. Here's a question: since these herbs are usually drying, wouldn't the use of a diuretic type herb such as fu ling accelerate the drying and thus lead to more yin damage?Also, since the contraindication for antihistamines in WM is more for those with BPH, could it be that antihistamines actually increase inflamation thus reducing urine flow? Bob proposed that the mechanism is due to a scattering of Kd and Bl qi. In light of BPH, does that make sense? > BTW, I obviously think this is a relevant exercise. Any substance can be described by both TCM and modern pharmacology. Knowing the TCM may allow one to mitigate side effects and apply in only certain > constitutions. > Me too, I welcome this type of thinking and in my mind it facilitates integration.FernandoChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

benadryl (www.benadryl.com), we find that the drug itself is really a formula with the following active ingredients and dosage: Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride 25 mg, Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride 30 mg, and Acetaminophen 500 mg. (there are other ingredients used mainly for color and emulsion)>>>>Not true benadryl does not contain all the above. Benadryl cold or some other types may do

Alon

 

-

fbernall

Saturday, December 22, 2001 6:57 AM

Re: Benadryl

, "1" <@i...> wrote:> I think it is drying becasue it dries up secretions like excess mucus. > Drying may damage fluids, also inhibiting urine. Many exterior > releasing herbs used for sinuses are warm, but not all (consider ge > gen, bo he). It is hard for me to say this is warm. It treats red > rashes on one hand, but treats clear copious discharge on the other.> In the process of working out a CM description of a Western med, should such WM Rx description/classification be similar to that of an individual herb say like bo he? Or should WMs be classified as formulas?I ask this because while doing a little research on benadryl (www.benadryl.com), we find that the drug itself is really a formula with the following active ingredients and dosage: Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride 25 mg, Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride 30 mg, and Acetaminophen 500 mg. (there are other ingridients used mainly for color and emulsion)A search on Acetaminophen reveals that it is the most widely used pharmaceutical analgesic and antipyretic possessing a slightly bitter taste. (BITTER TASTE AND AN ANTIPYRETIC?) www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic819.htmA search on DIPHENHYDRAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE resulted with this information:*USES: This compound is used as an antihistamine and for its anticholinergic (drying) and sedative effects. It is also used for allergic conjunctivitis due to foods, for mild, uncomplicated allergic skin manifestations of urticaria and angioedema, for amelioration of allergic reactions to blood or plasma, for dermatographism, in therapy for anaphylactic reactions adjunctive to epinephrine and other standard measures after the acute manifestations have been controlled, for active and prophylactic treatment of motion sickness and for parkinsonism. (MAYBE LIKE FENG FENG TYPE OF ACTION? COULD THERE BE SOME LIVER CHANNEL AFFINITY HERE?) It is used as an antiemetic and has local anesthetic properties. This compound is also used in preparations for the relief of cough and in the prevention and treatment of radiation sickness, nausea and vomiting.http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/Chem_H & S/NTP_Chem1/Radian147-24-0.htmlPseudoephedrine is usually used topically in nose sprays or in antihistamines to dilate the nose and to fight the sedative properties of most antihistamines. (MAYBE TO OFFSET THE SEDATIVE PROPERTIES OF THE ABOVE INGREDIENT?)(www.druginfonet.com/faq/new/DRUG_FAQ/Pseudoephedrine_Hydrochloride.htmTodd, I also gave a little more thought to your suggestion of adding fu ling to promote urination. Here's a question: since these herbs are usually drying, wouldn't the use of a diuretic type herb such as fu ling accelerate the drying and thus lead to more yin damage?Also, since the contraindication for antihistamines in WM is more for those with BPH, could it be that antihistamines actually increase inflamation thus reducing urine flow? Bob proposed that the mechanism is due to a scattering of Kd and Bl qi. In light of BPH, does that make sense? > BTW, I obviously think this is a relevant exercise. Any substance can be described by both TCM and modern pharmacology. Knowing the TCM may allow one to mitigate side effects and apply in only certain > constitutions. > Me too, I welcome this type of thinking and in my mind it facilitates integration.FernandoChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> In the process of working out a CM description of a Western med,

> should such WM Rx description/classification be similar to that of an

> individual herb say like bo he? Or should WMs be classified as

> formulas?

> >>>That is an excellent point

 

Perhaps, but I am not sure it makes much difference practically.

Formulas still address certain therapeutic principles. So it doesn't

really matter whether an herb clears heat and dries damp or a formula

does if our goal is to incorporate the med into our logic. BTW, I

suspected what Alon confirmed, that benadryl is a single compound and

that what Fernando refers to is another product.

 

[Guest guest]

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

 

>

> A search on DIPHENHYDRAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE resulted with this

> information:

>

> *USES:

> This compound is used as an antihistamine and for its

> anticholinergic (drying) and sedative effects.

 

sedative herbs are either heart nourishing or heavy settling. I don't

see this one as either.

 

It is also used for

> allergic conjunctivitis due to foods,

 

upper body sx again

 

for mild, uncomplicated allergic

> skin manifestations of urticaria and angioedema, for amelioration of

> allergic reactions to blood or plasma,

 

skin or lung sx

 

 

> for active and prophylactic treatment of motion sickness and for

> parkinsonism. (MAYBE LIKE FENG FENG TYPE OF ACTION? COULD THERE BE

> SOME LIVER CHANNEL AFFINITY HERE?)

 

interesting. gou teng also extinguishes internal wind and releases

external wind. fang feng, of course, also relieves intestinal wind.

but motion sickness. that suggests a descending affect, as most herbs

for nausea descend, in fact, many sedative herbs descend and/or

contain (astringe- suan zao ren, wu wei zi).

 

It is used as an antiemetic. This compound is also used in

> preparations for the relief of cough and in the prevention and

> treatment of radiation sickness, nausea and vomiting.

 

 

again, all sx that are usually treated by descending the qi. this

raises the question if benadryl's effects on skin and allergies is

actually not ascending and dispersing at all, but rather descending and

sinking. thus it would alleviate these sx by driving the

manifestations downward and inward. This would be an incorrect

treatment principle to apply for an exterior attack. but perhaps it

would be OK when the sx are caused by purely internal causes. If this

is the case, it seems that benadryl is neither ascending nor scattering

and thus its affects on urination may only be due to its drying nature.

 

>

> I also gave a little more thought to your suggestion of adding

> fu ling to promote urination. Here's a question: since these herbs are

> usually drying, wouldn't the use of a diuretic type herb such as fu

> ling accelerate the drying and thus lead to more yin damage?

 

perhaps, especially in light of what I said above. you wouldn't want

to supplment yin in most exterior conditions with watery discharge,

though. but again, maybe this med is actually best for interior

conditions.

>

> Also, since the contraindication for antihistamines in WM is more for

> those with BPH, could it be that antihistamines actually increase

> inflamation thus reducing urine flow?

 

Well, here you are introducing a western understanding of BPH, not

limiting yourself to its signs and sx as known by the four exams.

Thus, the question is then beggged as to what herbs increase

inflammation. In fact, I could propose a number of mechanisms, such as

qi stagnation, blood stagnation, damp stagnation, phlegm stagnation,

yin xu, qi xu, blood xu .... which just all brings us back to the

s/s to sort this out.

 

However, the discussion so far has made me realize that this is not so

straightforward. I mean maybe rather than scattering or ascending,

benadryl has a settling, calming, binding effect that actually leads to

stagnation and thus heat, especially in the lower body.

 

[Guest guest]

Isn't anybody going to do the Shen Nong thing and taste benadryl to

see what meridians and organs it's induced to? It doesn't seem like

there are agreed upon rules to deconstruct a material this way. How

can consensus or objectivity be found?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

>

> >

> > A search on DIPHENHYDRAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE resulted with this

> > information:

> >

> > *USES:

> > This compound is used as an antihistamine and for its

> > anticholinergic (drying) and sedative effects.

>

> sedative herbs are either heart nourishing or heavy settling. I

don't

> see this one as either.

>

> It is also used for

> > allergic conjunctivitis due to foods,

>

> upper body sx again

>

> for mild, uncomplicated allergic

> > skin manifestations of urticaria and angioedema, for

amelioration of

> > allergic reactions to blood or plasma,

>

> skin or lung sx

>

>

> > for active and prophylactic treatment of motion sickness and

for

> > parkinsonism. (MAYBE LIKE FENG FENG TYPE OF ACTION? COULD THERE

BE

> > SOME LIVER CHANNEL AFFINITY HERE?)

>

> interesting. gou teng also extinguishes internal wind and

releases

> external wind. fang feng, of course, also relieves intestinal

wind.

> but motion sickness. that suggests a descending affect, as most

herbs

> for nausea descend, in fact, many sedative herbs descend and/or

> contain (astringe- suan zao ren, wu wei zi).

>

> It is used as an antiemetic. This compound is also used in

> > preparations for the relief of cough and in the prevention and

> > treatment of radiation sickness, nausea and vomiting.

>

>

> again, all sx that are usually treated by descending the qi. this

> raises the question if benadryl's effects on skin and allergies is

> actually not ascending and dispersing at all, but rather

descending and

> sinking. thus it would alleviate these sx by driving the

> manifestations downward and inward. This would be an incorrect

> treatment principle to apply for an exterior attack. but perhaps

it

> would be OK when the sx are caused by purely internal causes. If

this

> is the case, it seems that benadryl is neither ascending nor

scattering

> and thus its affects on urination may only be due to its drying

nature.

>

> >

> > I also gave a little more thought to your suggestion of

adding

> > fu ling to promote urination. Here's a question: since these

herbs are

> > usually drying, wouldn't the use of a diuretic type herb such as

fu

> > ling accelerate the drying and thus lead to more yin damage?

>

> perhaps, especially in light of what I said above. you wouldn't

want

> to supplment yin in most exterior conditions with watery

discharge,

> though. but again, maybe this med is actually best for interior

> conditions.

> >

> > Also, since the contraindication for antihistamines in WM is

more for

> > those with BPH, could it be that antihistamines actually

increase

> > inflamation thus reducing urine flow?

>

> Well, here you are introducing a western understanding of BPH, not

> limiting yourself to its signs and sx as known by the four exams.

> Thus, the question is then beggged as to what herbs increase

> inflammation. In fact, I could propose a number of mechanisms,

such as

> qi stagnation, blood stagnation, damp stagnation, phlegm

stagnation,

> yin xu, qi xu, blood xu .... which just all brings us back to the

> s/s to sort this out.

>

> However, the discussion so far has made me realize that this is

not so

> straightforward. I mean maybe rather than scattering or

ascending,

> benadryl has a settling, calming, binding effect that actually

leads to

> stagnation and thus heat, especially in the lower body.

>

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/22/01 1:34:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

 

 

As to flavor, is it sour?

That would add some weight to the astringent hypothesis.

 

 

In order of presentation on my last experiment - Pungent - Bitter - Sour

 

Will

[Guest guest]

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> Isn't anybody going to do the Shen Nong thing and taste benadryl to

> see what meridians and organs it's induced to?

 

I don't think this act has ever played a large role in the introduction

of new medicinals to TCM. It seems that temp and channels are deduced

from a consideration of functions and indications. I think this is how

the shennong ben cao was developed also, whatever the legend says. As

for flavor, we could certainly recognize this quality, but I think it

is still something considered after the fact. In other words, once one

knows that such and such a herb treats certain sx,it's taste is used to

rationalize this. Just like knowing the pharmacology of an herb is

used to explain its actions to treat certain sx. It is not 100% true

that certain tastes do specific things. Some tonics are bitter, not

sweet (bai shao, hu lu ba, bu gu zhi, xian mao, sang ji sheng)as are

some dispersing herbs, rather than spicy (mo yao, lu lu tong, chuan

lian zi, mei gui hua). We might not predict their actions from their

taste

 

It doesn't seem like

> there are agreed upon rules to deconstruct a material this way.

 

I don't think the chinese had rules, either. they just speculated and

people tested the ideas, either confirming or rejecting them. Bob

flaws has laid out some parameters for this group and they seem to have

some logical consistency tome.

 

How

> can consensus or objectivity be found?

 

objectivity will never be found and it does not exist for any herb in

the materia medica. all we ever have in a subjective endeavor is

consensus. consensus can only be achieved by trial and error over

time. this is how the process begins.

 

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

I mean maybe rather than scattering or ascending,

> benadryl has a settling, calming, binding effect that actually leads to

> stagnation and thus heat, especially in the lower body.

 

 

Is benadryl an astringent? that would cause it to stop sinus leakage

and also inhibit urination. several astringents are sedatives, too

(lian zi, suan zao ren, wu wei zi). Astringing lung qi could address

SOB and cough.

 

[Guest guest]

To further the idea that benadryl may be an astringent, I note that at

least one astringent, rou dou kou, is used for vomiting. It is said

to warm the middle jiao to accomplish this. Wu wei zi, an astringent,

is used for skin rashes and has a well documented anti-allergy effect.

Benadryl may be closer to wu wei zi than any other medicinal. which

begs a question. Is benadryl a tonic? Does it not only

relieve sx but also improve health when used in the right bian zheng?

If this is right, then benadryl is best used in allergies of internal

origin, not caused by external influences, where the underlying cause is

one of vacuity. It would thus be combined with tonics. In this

scenario, it does not burn yin, however combining with herbs to promote

urination would not be unheard of even in yin xu (consider the combination

of astringents and damp drainers in liu wei di huang wan). the main

concern with its use would be stagnation.

I can't find any herbs that both cool blood and also astringe, however

benadryl's main action with regard to rashes is to inhibit the itching.

If itching is caused by internal wind, then we see a congruity between

stopping tremors and itching. Bai ji li comes to mind for these two

functions together. However no single herb seems to cover all these

indications. but bai ji li and wu wei zi together come close.

-- ,

 

 

FAX:

 

[Guest guest]

What is this Shen Nong thing? And how from the sapors can one deduct

which channel it is entering?

 

warren

[Guest guest]

, Warren Cargal <wcargal9@b...> wrote:

> What is this Shen Nong thing?

 

you know. learning what the herbs do by tasting them, as the legendary

emperor shen nong (who never really existed) was purported to have

done.

 

And how from the sapors can one deduct

> which channel it is entering?

>

 

of course you can't. In fact channel attribution is not part of the

shennong ben cao, but came much later, around 1100 AD. And the

channels were determined, according to Unschuld, by a consideration of

the herbs known functions and indications, not through some mystical or

sensory apprehension. However, having considered benadryl for the

better part of this morning, I can't argue with Will that it enters leg

taiyang, but I would also say arm taiyin. And here we have the midday

midnight correlation between LU and BL. As to flavor, is it sour?

That would add some weight to the astringent hypothesis.

 

[Guest guest]

One of the critiques of the genomics folks of biomedicine in the

articles and books I've read is that delivery systems of pharmaceuticals

are not tailored for individuals and their sensitivities, and that by

accessing the genomes, medications can be designed for individual

patients.

 

 

On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 08:44 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> With what little I know about genetic research

> of this type, it strikes me that it far more

> closely approaches the theoretical perspective

> of Chinese medicine, as it attempts to comprehend

> and address the individual at a fundamental level.

> >>>and that is not part of WM?

> Alon

>

> -

> dragon90405

>

> Friday, December 21, 2001 11:13 PM

> Re: Benadryl

>

>

>

> >I think this med is ascending

> > and floating because it exerts a strong effect on the upper body

> > (sinuses), but also on the surface (skin).  However, to be

> accurate, it

> > affects the skin in the lower body as well.

>

> The last sentence seems to suggest that a substance

> which is " ascending and floating " generally only

> affects the upper body. Is that what you mean?

>

> Since Bob's intention on this thread was to

> describe a western med in traditional Chinese

> terms, can you specify what Chinese terms

> you have in mind when you say " ascneding and

> floating " ?

>

> >I disagree with Alon that

> > chinese herbs should be used with TCM and western meds according to

> > pharmacology and never the twain shall meet.  In fact,

> pharmaceutical

> > companies are now using the human genome to develop research to see

> if

> > certain meds work better in certain genotypes with less risk than

> in

> > others.  Modern bian zheng?

> >

> With what little I know about genetic research

> of this type, it strikes me that it far more

> closely approaches the theoretical perspective

> of Chinese medicine, as it attempts to comprehend

> and address the individual at a fundamental level.

>

> I hope to get it on the research agenda of

> the new Complexity and Research

> Center recently formed in Beijing.

>

> Ken

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In my own research on this subject, I have had similar questions. Some

medications are compounds with several ingredients. Many medications,

because of their greater strength and resulting toxicity when compared

with Chinese medicinals, have much more sensitivity to issues such as

dosage and time. It is difficult with some pharmaceuticals to determine

temperature and flavor (qi).

 

 

On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 08:49 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> In the process of  working out a CM  description of a Western med,

> should such WM Rx description/classification be similar to that of an

> individual herb say like bo he? Or should WMs be classified as 

> formulas?

> >>>That is an excellent point

> Alon

>

> -

> fbernall

>

> Saturday, December 22, 2001 6:57 AM

> Re: Benadryl

>

> , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

>

> > I think it is drying becasue it dries up secretions like excess

> mucus. 

> > Drying may damage fluids, also inhibiting urine.  Many exterior

> > releasing herbs used for sinuses are warm, but not all (consider ge

> > gen, bo he).  It is hard for me to say this is warm.  It treats red

> > rashes on one hand, but treats clear copious discharge on the other.

> >

>

> In the process of  working out a CM  description of a Western med,

> should such WM Rx description/classification be similar to that of an

> individual herb say like bo he? Or should WMs be classified as 

> formulas?

>

> I ask this because while doing a little research on benadryl

> (www.benadryl.com), we find that the drug itself is really a formula 

> with the following active ingredients and dosage: Diphenhydramine

> Hydrochloride 25 mg, Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride 30 mg, and

> Acetaminophen 500 mg. (there are other ingridients used mainly for

> color and emulsion)

>

> A search on  Acetaminophen  reveals that it is the most widely used

> pharmaceutical analgesic and antipyretic possessing a slightly bitter

> taste. (BITTER TASTE AND AN ANTIPYRETIC?)

> www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic819.htm

>

> A search on  DIPHENHYDRAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE resulted with this

> information:

>

> *USES:

>       This compound is used as an antihistamine and for its

> anticholinergic (drying) and sedative effects.  It is also used for

> allergic conjunctivitis due to foods, for mild, uncomplicated allergic

> skin manifestations of urticaria and angioedema, for amelioration of

> allergic reactions to blood or plasma, for dermatographism, in therapy

> for anaphylactic reactions adjunctive to epinephrine and other

> standard measures after the acute manifestations have been controlled,

> for active and prophylactic treatment of motion sickness and  for

> parkinsonism. (MAYBE LIKE FENG FENG TYPE OF ACTION? COULD THERE BE

> SOME LIVER CHANNEL AFFINITY HERE?) It is used as an antiemetic and has

> local anesthetic properties.  This compound is also used in

> preparations for the relief of cough  and in the prevention and

> treatment of radiation sickness, nausea and vomiting.

> http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/Chem_H & S/NTP_Chem1/Radian147-24

> -0.html

>

> Pseudoephedrine is usually used topically in nose sprays or in

> antihistamines to dilate the nose and to fight the sedative properties

> of most antihistamines. (MAYBE  TO OFFSET THE SEDATIVE PROPERTIES OF

> THE ABOVE INGREDIENT?)

>

>

> (www.druginfonet.com/faq/new/DRUG_FAQ/Pseudoephedrine_Hydrochloride.ht

> m

>

> I also gave a little more thought to your suggestion of adding

> fu ling to promote urination. Here's a question: since these herbs are

> usually drying, wouldn't the use of a diuretic type herb such as fu

> ling accelerate the drying and thus lead to more yin damage?

>

> Also, since the contraindication for antihistamines in WM is more for

> those with BPH, could it be that antihistamines actually increase

> inflamation thus reducing urine flow?  Bob proposed that the mechanism

> is due to a scattering of Kd and Bl qi. In light of BPH, does that

> make sense?

>

>

> > BTW, I obviously think this is a relevant exercise. Any substance

> can  be described by both TCM and modern pharmacology.  Knowing the

> TCM may allow one to mitigate side effects and apply in only certain

> > constitutions. 

> >

>

> Me too, I welcome this type of thinking and in my mind it facilitates

> integration.

>

> Fernando

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/23/01 7:40:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, fbernall writes:

 

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

Will, did you taste the actual compound itself? Or the OTC drug?

 

Fernando > I did - it definitely enters the Leg Tai Yang - Will

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/23/01 7:40:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, fbernall writes:

 

 

Will, did you taste the actual compound itself? Or the OTC drug?

 

 

I tasted the compound itself - diphenhydramine hydrochloride

 

will

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/23/01 8:34:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, fbernall writes:

 

 

 

Ok. So then I'm misunderstanding the exercise. I thought the idea was to classify the OTC prescription medication. Thanks.

 

 

It is OTC....Will