Chinese language requirements

December 17, 2001

Alon, I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Your position seems to be that you would have done more if you had the time. But the way you spent your time was dictated by the priorities set by the institution you attended. If they had made a required track of Chinese language development, you would have to have made the time for it.>>>Well it left me time to study herbs, formulas, spend more time with patients, follow as many Drs (both in and out of school), and get as much information on their experience as I could, do follow-ups on every patient I have seen etc. If I was to study Chinese beyond what I did (which was limited to, basic written herbs, TCM diagnosis and treatment characters). I would not have had as much time to do what I did. Again, I think it was better use of my time than knowing more Chinese

Alon

-

Rory Kerr

Monday, December 17, 2001 8:44 AM

Re: Re: Chinese language requirements

At 1:09 PM -0600 12/16/01, Alon Marcus wrote:>Alon, what do you think would happen if a widespread>understanding of Chinese medical language, thought,>literature and theory were to flourish in the States> >>>>>I am not saying it is a bad thing but as I see it people have >a limited amount of time and they need to prioritize.--Alon, I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Your position seems to be that you would have done more if you had the time. But the way you spent your time was dictated by the priorities set by the institution you attended. If they had made a required track of Chinese language development, you would have to have made the time for it.Surely students don't get to decide the content of their education, and if content is required it's up to them to make it a priority. The schools don't require it, and therefore students take the path of least resistance, which is fair enough; after all they are not in a position to know what is important, and have to assume that the colleges have decided that. The colleges on the other hand are making their priorities based, in part, not on what is best educationally, but rather what will maximize their profit. I emphasize _in part_, because I'm sure they have educational values in mind as well. However, in a situation where they compete for students, and students will take the path of least resistance, their choice not to include language is in their self interest as profit driven enterprises.Bensky's school is commendable for operating on a different principle, and their faculty will have the pleasure of teaching a group of students who are probably of a higher caliber than is general.Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

December 17, 2001

In a message dated 12/17/01 4:57:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes:

Clinical Traditional : Ortho-

pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science,

â€¢ Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology.

Guang-shi, China: Scientific and

Technological Publisher,

â€¢ Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related

Diseases. China Scientific

>>>>>Are these in Chinese?

yes

December 17, 2001

Bob –

I must take exception to your thoughtful, long and detailed post when it

comes to Emperor’s College.

To quote the Accreditation commission “The Chinese faculty members are

among the most qualified and experienced practitioners anywhere.

Doctoral degrees and post-doctoral fellowships are abundant, creating a

strong foundation for the eventual inclusion of a doctoral program at

the college.” No faculty member has less than five years experience with

the exception of a physical therapist/acupuncturist of 10 years

experience in physical therapy and two years as an acupuncturist

teaching the acu-anatomy course.

Our pay scale is between $30-$45 an hour depending on background. This

comes nowhere near compensating these individuals for what they bring to

the table. However, at $120 a unit, faculty salaries amount to more than

half the annual revenue. I would love to pay these people more – but we

would have to close. Average Master’s degree program fees are about $565

a unit nationwide. If we begin to approximate the subsidy and fee

structures of the conventional educational systems, then the fee scales

you suggest for faculty become plausible.

Will

PS here is a brief summary of some of our faculty members who currently

serve the Master’s program. They are each qualified for doctoral level

training. Some of them are qualified for teaching in the highest

academic posts in China.

John Chen, Pharm.D., L.Ac.

Pharm.D., USC School of Pharmacy

PhD, OMD, South Baylor University

BA, California State University, Fullerton

Dr. Chen is currently an assistant professor in the University of

Southern California School of Pharmacy. In addition, he is President and

Founder of Lotus Herbs.

Hua Gu, Ph.D., L.Ac.

Ph.D., China Academy of TCM, Beijing, China Orthopedic and Traumatology

specialist. Medicine Doctorate from Guangchou Medical College, China.

Dr. Gu is the only person in the U.S. to hold a Ph.D. in TCM Orthopedics

and is the Founder of the American Acupuncture Academy. Recent

publications include:

• Clinical Traditional : Ortho-

pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science,

• Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology.

Guang-shi, China: Scientific and

Technological Publisher,

• Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related

Diseases. China Scientific

John Gu, L.Ac.

Shanghai University of TCM, China

Neiqiang Gu is from the famous Gu family lineage of Shanghai. His father

and grandfather practiced the dermatological specialty which includes

the surgical procedures of TCM. The Gu family lineage has many secret

prescriptions, especially in the arena of external applications. He has

been officially entitled and registered Asian academic inheritor of the

Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional Chinese Specialists,

the highest rank for Traditional Chinese Medical Doctors in the Peoples

Republic of China. With forty years of experience, Dr. Gu has published

more than thirty research papers and books including: " Differentiation

and Treatment of Psoriasis " , " Differentiation and Treatment of Eczema " ,

" Studies of 100 Cases on Warts " , " Six Methods to Treat Vitiligo by Boha

Gu " , and " Clinical Experiences from Xiaoyan Gu " .

Jerome Jiang, Ph.D., Chinese Classics, East China

Normal University, China

Professor Jiang has taught and conducted research at universities in

China, Japan and the United States. He has taught many courses in

Traditional and Chinese languages and philosophies,

including the “Yellow Emperor’s Classic.” Recent publications include:

• Annotation and Analysis on the Book of

Odes, China Publishing House, Oct. 1991

• The Variorum of the Analects of Confu-

cius (textual criticism and punctuation)

China Publishing House (Zhong Hua

Shu Ju), Oct. 1990

• Thirty Treatises on Taoist Literature,

Shanghai Social Science Publishing

House, Sep. 1993

• Selected Translation of The Book of

Odes, Ba Shu Publishing House, Jun. 1990

• The Modern Annotation and Translation

of the Book of Odes, Yue Lu Publishing

House, 1994

• I Ching, Lao Tse and the Yin Yang

Theory, The Fifth International Congress

of , Jun. 1990

Xiu-Ling Ma, Ph.D., L.Ac.

Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China

MS, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China

MD, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China

Dr. Ma is one of the most highly educated professionals in the field of

Traditional (TCM), both in China and in the United

States. She graduated first in her class from the prestigious Beijing

University of TCM and completed twelve full years of education in

integrated TCM and Western Medicine. As part of her education, Dr. Ma

studied directly under two distinguished TCM Masters in China-Dr.

Jia-San Yang and Dr. Zi-Fu Chen, both of whom accept only one or two

students each year. Before coming to Los Angeles in 1995, Dr. Ma was a

professor, physician and researcher at the Beijing University of TCM.

She also conducted clinical research as to the efficacy of herbs and

acupuncture in treating various illnesses, such as stroke, asthma,

diabetes, the common cold and many others. Dr. Ma is authorized to

treat patients at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center and at the Daniel Freeman

Marina Hospital. She is also the Acupuncture Program Director of a

research project on acupuncture for stroke patients, a project

coordinated by the USC School of Medicine, Daniel Freeman Hospital

Marina and Emperor's College. Dr. Ma also maintains a private practice

at the Acu-Herbal Medical Arts. Dr Ma has published over a dozen books

and articles on TCM subjects. Recent publications include:

• Pocket Manual of Practical Acupuncture.

Tianjin, China: Tianjin Scientech

Publishing House, 1995.

• Practical Acupuncture Treatment

for Diseases of the Nervous System. China

Traditional Publishing

House, 1994.

• Fifteen Kinds of Medical Skills. China

Traditional Publishing

House, 1996.

• The Selected Works for Health Preservation of

Ancient China. Beijing Broadcast College

Publishing House, 1992.

• Progress of Clinical and Experimental Studies

on Acupuncture Treatment of Cerebrovascular

Diseases.

• Experience of Professor Jia-san Yang in

Epilepsy Treatment with Acupuncture.

Education of Traditional .

1994;3:46.

Zhou Yi Qiu, L.Ac.

Postdoctoral fellow in Cardiology,

Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TX

Cardiology Training, Sun Yat Sen (Guangzhou) Medical University,

Guangzhou, China

Dr. Qiu is a unique addition to Emperor’s College due to his background

in TCM Cardiology. Recent publications include:

• Short-term Effect of Treating Congestive

Heart Failure with Ilexanin A, Collected

papers of the Second Symposium of Cardiovas-

cular Disease of Guangdong Provincial Heart

Association of integrated Traditional Chinese

Medicine and Western Medicine.1992;78.

• Progress of Traditional

studies on essential hypertension.

Collected papers of the first international

conference of Traditional .

1993;39.

Tiande Yang, Ph.D., L.Ac.

Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China

Dr. Yang has been officially entitled and registered Asian academic

inheritor of the Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional

Chinese Specialists, the highest rank for Traditional Chinese Medical

Doctors in the Peoples Republic of China. To preserve the heritage of

, 500 of the most respected Chinese Doctors selected two

pupils each to pass on their time-honored medical knowledge and skills.

Dr. Yang is one of the 1,000 elects and started his apprenticeship under

his father at age 16. As an Assistant Professor of Traditional Chinese

Medicine at the Beijing College of Traditional since

1988, he was the physician in charge of the Department of Acupuncture

and Moxibustion at the Beijing Dongzhimen Hospital.

Yun Kyoung Yim, Ph.D., L.Ac.

Ph.D., Kyung Hee University, Seoul, South Korea

Dr. Yim has counseled and assisted Neuro-Acupuncture research at

University of California, Irvine’s Medical Department. She has

conducted extensive research and theses on acupuncture, moxabustion, and

heart disease. Dr. Yim is currently a supervisor and instructor at

Emperor’s College and Clinic.

<<

1. Hire professorial level teachers to teach Masters and Doctoral

level programs, not the equivalent of teaching assistants (TAs).

By this I mean: A) Do national and international job searches for

qualified professors who 1) read at least one Far East Asian language,

2) have at least 10 years clinical experience in Chinese medicine, 3)

are fluent English speakers, and 4) have some training in Western

educational philosophy, techniques, and academic standards.

Since there is, in my experience, a dearth of such qualified people,

this means that there should be less programs. I believe that it would

be better to turn out fewer but better trained practitioners than

more, lesser trained practitioners (at least when it comes to the

internal administration of Chinese medicinals, as opposed to

acupuncture). I believe Dan Bensky's school is on the right tract in

terms of size vis a vis quality control.

2. Pay those professors a professorial salary of not less than $70K

per annum.

Right now and, again, in my experience, schools pay somewhere between

$25-30 per hour, with most teachers only working part time at teaching

and few schools paying for class prep time. Far too often, our

teachers teach because they are not busy in their own clinics or they

need a employer-secured green card. Too many of our teachers are

recent graduates with less than 5 years clinical experience or recent

immigrants who A) cannot communicate a doctoral level of technical

material in doctoral level English and B) have yet to really

understand the requirements of doing Chinese medicine with our patient

population. The first requirement of an effective professional teacher

is not necessarily being the wrold's greatest expert in their field

but being an effective communicator to the target audience. This means

that persons who may be crackerjack practitioners or even well known

teachers in China may not be particularly effective teachers in the

U.S.

3. Require professors to conduct research, translate, and/or publish

just like professors in bona fide doctoral programs would be expected

in regular academe.

4. Require more stringent entrance levels. If we're are truly going

for a doctoral level program, then how come we don't require the GRE?

I believe a B.A. or B.S. should be absolutely mandatory, even of the

current " M.S. " level students. The older I get, the more I believe

that there's just no substitute for a good all-around, general

education. Studying logic may, seemingly, have nothing to do with the

clinical practice of Chinese medicine, but it teaches one to think,

and thinking most certainly does have to do with the clinical practice

of Chinese medicine. Likewise, studying anthropology may seem

irrelevant, but, from my personal experience, studying some medical

anthropology has helped me immensely in getting clear about certain

aspects of Chinese medical psychiatry. >>

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

December 17, 2001

Clinical Traditional : Ortho- pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science,• Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology. Guang-shi, China: Scientific and Technological Publisher,• Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related Diseases. China Scientific>>>>>Are these in Chinese?

-

Will

Monday, December 17, 2001 3:45 PM

Re: Chinese language requirements

Bob –I must take exception to your thoughtful, long and detailed post when itcomes to Emperor’s College.To quote the Accreditation commission “The Chinese faculty members areamong the most qualified and experienced practitioners anywhere.Doctoral degrees and post-doctoral fellowships are abundant, creating astrong foundation for the eventual inclusion of a doctoral program atthe college.” No faculty member has less than five years experience withthe exception of a physical therapist/acupuncturist of 10 yearsexperience in physical therapy and two years as an acupuncturistteaching the acu-anatomy course.Our pay scale is between $30-$45 an hour depending on background. Thiscomes nowhere near compensating these individuals for what they bring tothe table. However, at $120 a unit, faculty salaries amount to more thanhalf the annual revenue. I would love to pay these people more – but wewould have to close. Average Master’s degree program fees are about $565a unit nationwide. If we begin to approximate the subsidy and feestructures of the conventional educational systems, then the fee scalesyou suggest for faculty become plausible.WillPS here is a brief summary of some of our faculty members who currentlyserve the Master’s program. They are each qualified for doctoral leveltraining. Some of them are qualified for teaching in the highestacademic posts in China.John Chen, Pharm.D., L.Ac.Pharm.D., USC School of PharmacyPhD, OMD, South Baylor UniversityBA, California State University, FullertonDr. Chen is currently an assistant professor in the University ofSouthern California School of Pharmacy. In addition, he is President andFounder of Lotus Herbs.Hua Gu, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., China Academy of TCM, Beijing, China Orthopedic and Traumatologyspecialist. Medicine Doctorate from Guangchou Medical College, China.Dr. Gu is the only person in the U.S. to hold a Ph.D. in TCM Orthopedicsand is the Founder of the American Acupuncture Academy. Recentpublications include:• Clinical Traditional : Ortho- pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science,• Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology. Guang-shi, China: Scientific and Technological Publisher,• Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related Diseases. China ScientificJohn Gu, L.Ac.Shanghai University of TCM, ChinaNeiqiang Gu is from the famous Gu family lineage of Shanghai. His fatherand grandfather practiced the dermatological specialty which includesthe surgical procedures of TCM. The Gu family lineage has many secretprescriptions, especially in the arena of external applications. He hasbeen officially entitled and registered Asian academic inheritor of theMost Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional Chinese Specialists,the highest rank for Traditional Chinese Medical Doctors in the PeoplesRepublic of China. With forty years of experience, Dr. Gu has publishedmore than thirty research papers and books including: "Differentiationand Treatment of Psoriasis", "Differentiation and Treatment of Eczema","Studies of 100 Cases on Warts", "Six Methods to Treat Vitiligo by BohaGu", and "Clinical Experiences from Xiaoyan Gu".Jerome Jiang, Ph.D., Chinese Classics, East ChinaNormal University, ChinaProfessor Jiang has taught and conducted research at universities inChina, Japan and the United States. He has taught many courses inTraditional and Chinese languages and philosophies,including the “Yellow Emperor’s Classic.” Recent publications include:• Annotation and Analysis on the Book of Odes, China Publishing House, Oct. 1991• The Variorum of the Analects of Confu- cius (textual criticism and punctuation) China Publishing House (Zhong Hua Shu Ju), Oct. 1990• Thirty Treatises on Taoist Literature, Shanghai Social Science Publishing House, Sep. 1993• Selected Translation of The Book of Odes, Ba Shu Publishing House, Jun. 1990• The Modern Annotation and Translation of the Book of Odes, Yue Lu Publishing House, 1994• I Ching, Lao Tse and the Yin Yang Theory, The Fifth International Congress of , Jun. 1990Xiu-Ling Ma, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaMS, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaMD, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaDr. Ma is one of the most highly educated professionals in the field ofTraditional (TCM), both in China and in the UnitedStates. She graduated first in her class from the prestigious BeijingUniversity of TCM and completed twelve full years of education inintegrated TCM and Western Medicine. As part of her education, Dr. Mastudied directly under two distinguished TCM Masters in China-Dr.Jia-San Yang and Dr. Zi-Fu Chen, both of whom accept only one or twostudents each year. Before coming to Los Angeles in 1995, Dr. Ma was aprofessor, physician and researcher at the Beijing University of TCM.She also conducted clinical research as to the efficacy of herbs andacupuncture in treating various illnesses, such as stroke, asthma,diabetes, the common cold and many others. Dr. Ma is authorized totreat patients at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center and at the Daniel FreemanMarina Hospital. She is also the Acupuncture Program Director of aresearch project on acupuncture for stroke patients, a projectcoordinated by the USC School of Medicine, Daniel Freeman HospitalMarina and Emperor's College. Dr. Ma also maintains a private practiceat the Acu-Herbal Medical Arts. Dr Ma has published over a dozen booksand articles on TCM subjects. Recent publications include:• Pocket Manual of Practical Acupuncture. Tianjin, China: Tianjin Scientech Publishing House, 1995.• Practical Acupuncture Treatment for Diseases of the Nervous System. China Traditional Publishing House, 1994.• Fifteen Kinds of Medical Skills. China Traditional Publishing House, 1996.• The Selected Works for Health Preservation of Ancient China. Beijing Broadcast College Publishing House, 1992.• Progress of Clinical and Experimental Studies on Acupuncture Treatment of Cerebrovascular Diseases.• Experience of Professor Jia-san Yang in Epilepsy Treatment with Acupuncture. Education of Traditional . 1994;3:46.Zhou Yi Qiu, L.Ac.Postdoctoral fellow in Cardiology,Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TXCardiology Training, Sun Yat Sen (Guangzhou) Medical University,Guangzhou, ChinaDr. Qiu is a unique addition to Emperor’s College due to his backgroundin TCM Cardiology. Recent publications include:• Short-term Effect of Treating Congestive Heart Failure with Ilexanin A, Collected papers of the Second Symposium of Cardiovas- cular Disease of Guangdong Provincial Heart Association of integrated Traditional Chinese Medicine and Western Medicine.1992;78.• Progress of Traditional studies on essential hypertension. Collected papers of the first international conference of Traditional . 1993;39.Tiande Yang, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaDr. Yang has been officially entitled and registered Asian academicinheritor of the Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and TraditionalChinese Specialists, the highest rank for Traditional Chinese MedicalDoctors in the Peoples Republic of China. To preserve the heritage of, 500 of the most respected Chinese Doctors selected twopupils each to pass on their time-honored medical knowledge and skills.Dr. Yang is one of the 1,000 elects and started his apprenticeship underhis father at age 16. As an Assistant Professor of Traditional ChineseMedicine at the Beijing College of Traditional since1988, he was the physician in charge of the Department of Acupunctureand Moxibustion at the Beijing Dongzhimen Hospital.Yun Kyoung Yim, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Kyung Hee University, Seoul, South KoreaDr. Yim has counseled and assisted Neuro-Acupuncture research atUniversity of California, Irvine’s Medical Department. She hasconducted extensive research and theses on acupuncture, moxabustion, andheart disease. Dr. Yim is currently a supervisor and instructor atEmperor’s College and Clinic.<<1. Hire professorial level teachers to teach Masters and Doctorallevel programs, not the equivalent of teaching assistants (TAs).By this I mean: A) Do national and international job searches forqualified professors who 1) read at least one Far East Asian language,2) have at least 10 years clinical experience in Chinese medicine, 3)are fluent English speakers, and 4) have some training in Westerneducational philosophy, techniques, and academic standards.Since there is, in my experience, a dearth of such qualified people,this means that there should be less programs. I believe that it wouldbe better to turn out fewer but better trained practitioners thanmore, lesser trained practitioners (at least when it comes to theinternal administration of Chinese medicinals, as opposed toacupuncture). I believe Dan Bensky's school is on the right tract interms of size vis a vis quality control.2. Pay those professors a professorial salary of not less than $70Kper annum.Right now and, again, in my experience, schools pay somewhere between$25-30 per hour, with most teachers only working part time at teachingand few schools paying for class prep time. Far too often, ourteachers teach because they are not busy in their own clinics or theyneed a employer-secured green card. Too many of our teachers arerecent graduates with less than 5 years clinical experience or recentimmigrants who A) cannot communicate a doctoral level of technicalmaterial in doctoral level English and B) have yet to reallyunderstand the requirements of doing Chinese medicine with our patientpopulation. The first requirement of an effective professional teacheris not necessarily being the wrold's greatest expert in their fieldbut being an effective communicator to the target audience. This meansthat persons who may be crackerjack practitioners or even well knownteachers in China may not be particularly effective teachers in theU.S.3. Require professors to conduct research, translate, and/or publishjust like professors in bona fide doctoral programs would be expectedin regular academe.4. Require more stringent entrance levels. If we're are truly goingfor a doctoral level program, then how come we don't require the GRE?I believe a B.A. or B.S. should be absolutely mandatory, even of thecurrent "M.S." level students. The older I get, the more I believethat there's just no substitute for a good all-around, generaleducation. Studying logic may, seemingly, have nothing to do with theclinical practice of Chinese medicine, but it teaches one to think,and thinking most certainly does have to do with the clinical practiceof Chinese medicine. Likewise, studying anthropology may seemirrelevant, but, from my personal experience, studying some medicalanthropology has helped me immensely in getting clear about certainaspects of Chinese medical psychiatry. >>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

December 17, 2001

Progress of Traditional studies on essential hypertension. Collected papers of the first international conference of Traditional . 1993;39.>>>Do you have a copy of this

-

Will

Monday, December 17, 2001 3:45 PM

Re: Chinese language requirements

Bob –I must take exception to your thoughtful, long and detailed post when itcomes to Emperor’s College.To quote the Accreditation commission “The Chinese faculty members areamong the most qualified and experienced practitioners anywhere.Doctoral degrees and post-doctoral fellowships are abundant, creating astrong foundation for the eventual inclusion of a doctoral program atthe college.” No faculty member has less than five years experience withthe exception of a physical therapist/acupuncturist of 10 yearsexperience in physical therapy and two years as an acupuncturistteaching the acu-anatomy course.Our pay scale is between $30-$45 an hour depending on background. Thiscomes nowhere near compensating these individuals for what they bring tothe table. However, at $120 a unit, faculty salaries amount to more thanhalf the annual revenue. I would love to pay these people more – but wewould have to close. Average Master’s degree program fees are about $565a unit nationwide. If we begin to approximate the subsidy and feestructures of the conventional educational systems, then the fee scalesyou suggest for faculty become plausible.WillPS here is a brief summary of some of our faculty members who currentlyserve the Master’s program. They are each qualified for doctoral leveltraining. Some of them are qualified for teaching in the highestacademic posts in China.John Chen, Pharm.D., L.Ac.Pharm.D., USC School of PharmacyPhD, OMD, South Baylor UniversityBA, California State University, FullertonDr. Chen is currently an assistant professor in the University ofSouthern California School of Pharmacy. In addition, he is President andFounder of Lotus Herbs.Hua Gu, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., China Academy of TCM, Beijing, China Orthopedic and Traumatologyspecialist. Medicine Doctorate from Guangchou Medical College, China.Dr. Gu is the only person in the U.S. to hold a Ph.D. in TCM Orthopedicsand is the Founder of the American Acupuncture Academy. Recentpublications include:• Clinical Traditional : Ortho- pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science,• Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology. Guang-shi, China: Scientific and Technological Publisher,• Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related Diseases. China ScientificJohn Gu, L.Ac.Shanghai University of TCM, ChinaNeiqiang Gu is from the famous Gu family lineage of Shanghai. His fatherand grandfather practiced the dermatological specialty which includesthe surgical procedures of TCM. The Gu family lineage has many secretprescriptions, especially in the arena of external applications. He hasbeen officially entitled and registered Asian academic inheritor of theMost Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional Chinese Specialists,the highest rank for Traditional Chinese Medical Doctors in the PeoplesRepublic of China. With forty years of experience, Dr. Gu has publishedmore than thirty research papers and books including: "Differentiationand Treatment of Psoriasis", "Differentiation and Treatment of Eczema","Studies of 100 Cases on Warts", "Six Methods to Treat Vitiligo by BohaGu", and "Clinical Experiences from Xiaoyan Gu".Jerome Jiang, Ph.D., Chinese Classics, East ChinaNormal University, ChinaProfessor Jiang has taught and conducted research at universities inChina, Japan and the United States. He has taught many courses inTraditional and Chinese languages and philosophies,including the “Yellow Emperor’s Classic.” Recent publications include:• Annotation and Analysis on the Book of Odes, China Publishing House, Oct. 1991• The Variorum of the Analects of Confu- cius (textual criticism and punctuation) China Publishing House (Zhong Hua Shu Ju), Oct. 1990• Thirty Treatises on Taoist Literature, Shanghai Social Science Publishing House, Sep. 1993• Selected Translation of The Book of Odes, Ba Shu Publishing House, Jun. 1990• The Modern Annotation and Translation of the Book of Odes, Yue Lu Publishing House, 1994• I Ching, Lao Tse and the Yin Yang Theory, The Fifth International Congress of , Jun. 1990Xiu-Ling Ma, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaMS, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaMD, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaDr. Ma is one of the most highly educated professionals in the field ofTraditional (TCM), both in China and in the UnitedStates. She graduated first in her class from the prestigious BeijingUniversity of TCM and completed twelve full years of education inintegrated TCM and Western Medicine. As part of her education, Dr. Mastudied directly under two distinguished TCM Masters in China-Dr.Jia-San Yang and Dr. Zi-Fu Chen, both of whom accept only one or twostudents each year. Before coming to Los Angeles in 1995, Dr. Ma was aprofessor, physician and researcher at the Beijing University of TCM.She also conducted clinical research as to the efficacy of herbs andacupuncture in treating various illnesses, such as stroke, asthma,diabetes, the common cold and many others. Dr. Ma is authorized totreat patients at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center and at the Daniel FreemanMarina Hospital. She is also the Acupuncture Program Director of aresearch project on acupuncture for stroke patients, a projectcoordinated by the USC School of Medicine, Daniel Freeman HospitalMarina and Emperor's College. Dr. Ma also maintains a private practiceat the Acu-Herbal Medical Arts. Dr Ma has published over a dozen booksand articles on TCM subjects. Recent publications include:• Pocket Manual of Practical Acupuncture. Tianjin, China: Tianjin Scientech Publishing House, 1995.• Practical Acupuncture Treatment for Diseases of the Nervous System. China Traditional Publishing House, 1994.• Fifteen Kinds of Medical Skills. China Traditional Publishing House, 1996.• The Selected Works for Health Preservation of Ancient China. Beijing Broadcast College Publishing House, 1992.• Progress of Clinical and Experimental Studies on Acupuncture Treatment of Cerebrovascular Diseases.• Experience of Professor Jia-san Yang in Epilepsy Treatment with Acupuncture. Education of Traditional . 1994;3:46.Zhou Yi Qiu, L.Ac.Postdoctoral fellow in Cardiology,Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TXCardiology Training, Sun Yat Sen (Guangzhou) Medical University,Guangzhou, ChinaDr. Qiu is a unique addition to Emperor’s College due to his backgroundin TCM Cardiology. Recent publications include:• Short-term Effect of Treating Congestive Heart Failure with Ilexanin A, Collected papers of the Second Symposium of Cardiovas- cular Disease of Guangdong Provincial Heart Association of integrated Traditional Chinese Medicine and Western Medicine.1992;78.• Progress of Traditional studies on essential hypertension. Collected papers of the first international conference of Traditional . 1993;39.Tiande Yang, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaDr. Yang has been officially entitled and registered Asian academicinheritor of the Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and TraditionalChinese Specialists, the highest rank for Traditional Chinese MedicalDoctors in the Peoples Republic of China. To preserve the heritage of, 500 of the most respected Chinese Doctors selected twopupils each to pass on their time-honored medical knowledge and skills.Dr. Yang is one of the 1,000 elects and started his apprenticeship underhis father at age 16. As an Assistant Professor of Traditional ChineseMedicine at the Beijing College of Traditional since1988, he was the physician in charge of the Department of Acupunctureand Moxibustion at the Beijing Dongzhimen Hospital.Yun Kyoung Yim, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Kyung Hee University, Seoul, South KoreaDr. Yim has counseled and assisted Neuro-Acupuncture research atUniversity of California, Irvine’s Medical Department. She hasconducted extensive research and theses on acupuncture, moxabustion, andheart disease. Dr. Yim is currently a supervisor and instructor atEmperor’s College and Clinic.<<1. Hire professorial level teachers to teach Masters and Doctorallevel programs, not the equivalent of teaching assistants (TAs).By this I mean: A) Do national and international job searches forqualified professors who 1) read at least one Far East Asian language,2) have at least 10 years clinical experience in Chinese medicine, 3)are fluent English speakers, and 4) have some training in Westerneducational philosophy, techniques, and academic standards.Since there is, in my experience, a dearth of such qualified people,this means that there should be less programs. I believe that it wouldbe better to turn out fewer but better trained practitioners thanmore, lesser trained practitioners (at least when it comes to theinternal administration of Chinese medicinals, as opposed toacupuncture). I believe Dan Bensky's school is on the right tract interms of size vis a vis quality control.2. Pay those professors a professorial salary of not less than $70Kper annum.Right now and, again, in my experience, schools pay somewhere between$25-30 per hour, with most teachers only working part time at teachingand few schools paying for class prep time. Far too often, ourteachers teach because they are not busy in their own clinics or theyneed a employer-secured green card. Too many of our teachers arerecent graduates with less than 5 years clinical experience or recentimmigrants who A) cannot communicate a doctoral level of technicalmaterial in doctoral level English and B) have yet to reallyunderstand the requirements of doing Chinese medicine with our patientpopulation. The first requirement of an effective professional teacheris not necessarily being the wrold's greatest expert in their fieldbut being an effective communicator to the target audience. This meansthat persons who may be crackerjack practitioners or even well knownteachers in China may not be particularly effective teachers in theU.S.3. Require professors to conduct research, translate, and/or publishjust like professors in bona fide doctoral programs would be expectedin regular academe.4. Require more stringent entrance levels. If we're are truly goingfor a doctoral level program, then how come we don't require the GRE?I believe a B.A. or B.S. should be absolutely mandatory, even of thecurrent "M.S." level students. The older I get, the more I believethat there's just no substitute for a good all-around, generaleducation. Studying logic may, seemingly, have nothing to do with theclinical practice of Chinese medicine, but it teaches one to think,and thinking most certainly does have to do with the clinical practiceof Chinese medicine. Likewise, studying anthropology may seemirrelevant, but, from my personal experience, studying some medicalanthropology has helped me immensely in getting clear about certainaspects of Chinese medical psychiatry. >>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

December 17, 2001

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

I believe most

> of the schools are operated to maximize profit, and therefore the

> idea of selecting out students in this way is a non starter, and is

> the reason Chinese language is unlikely to become a prerequisite for,

> or a feature of, their programs.

Rory is quite right about this. I predict forlornly that very few

schools will require Chinese for their doctoral programs for the same

reason. And those that now intend to will be forced to backpedal due to

lack of enrollment. Bob Flaws has pointed out that students and px do

not even want to read translations of classics, much less the classics

themselves. Perhaps the only solution will be the one that Flaws has

floated. When mainstream universities take over the education in TCM

and vigorously recruit students who already have strong academic

credentials and leanings. Just pause a moment to consider students who

work 40 hours per week, are married with children and planning a

midlife career change. Perhaps time would be better spent

investigating Flaws proposal more seriously. I really see the current

system as a deadend in this area. My main interest personally is

access to more translated material. To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing

Chinese is not requisite for successful practice and conversely,

knowing Chinese does not even ensure that one is any good at all at

practice.

December 17, 2001

Lorraine,

I'm having trouble joining the translation

group. Can you kindly me? I believe

it's an option available to you as the moderator/owner

of the list.

Please use <yulong

Many thanks,

Ken

December 17, 2001

I really see the current system as a deadend in this area.

>>>With this I totally agree. If we were to be part of mainstream education than the whole field will look different and quality of the education can be greatly improved

Alon

-

1

Monday, December 17, 2001 8:10 PM

Re: Chinese language requirements

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:I believe most > of the schools are operated to maximize profit, and therefore the > idea of selecting out students in this way is a non starter, and is > the reason Chinese language is unlikely to become a prerequisite for, > or a feature of, their programs. Rory is quite right about this. I predict forlornly that very few schools will require Chinese for their doctoral programs for the same reason. And those that now intend to will be forced to backpedal due to lack of enrollment. Bob Flaws has pointed out that students and px do not even want to read translations of classics, much less the classics themselves. Perhaps the only solution will be the one that Flaws has floated. When mainstream universities take over the education in TCM and vigorously recruit students who already have strong academic credentials and leanings. Just pause a moment to consider students who work 40 hours per week, are married with children and planning a midlife career change. Perhaps time would be better spent investigating Flaws proposal more seriously. I really see the current system as a deadend in this area. My main interest personally is access to more translated material. To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing Chinese is not requisite for successful practice and conversely, knowing Chinese does not even ensure that one is any good at all at practice.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

December 17, 2001

Alon,

>

> >>>Obviously the more one knows the better he is. And I applaud

those of you who are trying to master the language so that you can

judge for yourselves. I am just wandering in the US what is ones best

use of time

I don't find the " best use of time " argument

to be particularly convincing. What it boils

down to is you have to have a value system

to make such judgments. And a value system

that does not incorporate the values of the

language and literature of the subject does

not accurately reflect the subject.

I think the time issue is a red herring.

Of course everybody wants to put their

time to the best possible use. But to some

that's sitting on the couch watching TV

and to others it's jumping out of an airplane.

You're assuming that if you knew something

that you do not then things would look the

same as they do to you now. I don't think

that's a safe assumption.

Bucky Fuller used to point out, as in

An Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth,

that even if we were to learn today that

everything we'd held true up until today

were found to be false, we would still know

more today than yesterday. The value of that

one new datum that one bit of knowledge that

allows you to reevaluate your previous accumulation

should not be underestimated.

I understand that you feel the way you

feel and believe what you say to be true,

but the reason for an exchange such as this

is to take a close look at assumptions and

see if they stand up to scrutiny. Your

assertion about the best use of time, i.e.

that it is not the best use of one's time

to learn Chinese medical langauge compared

to studying " the medicine " does not scrutinize

any of the underlying arguments that suggest

that " the medicine " having been written

by people who thought and spoke using Chinese

language, is therefore inexorably marked with

the characteristics of that langauge, as well

as a range of other cultural influences.

Teachers have always faced the task of

teaching their students to think for themselves.

Those who developed and transmitted the principles

and methods of " the medicine " did so using the

characteristics of Chinese language, Chinese

epistemology, and a range of other artifacts

of knolwedge that remain as worthy of inclusion in

the education and training of doctors of

the medicine today as ever.

Ken

December 17, 2001

Dan,

>To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing

> Chinese is not requisite for successful practice

It can't be both that it is not requisite and is

a prerequisite at Dan's school.

Dan, perhaps you can clarify your actual consideration

on this point.

Also, do I read the change in your requirements

in fact as a lessening of the Chinese language

instruction?

and conversely,

> knowing Chinese does not even ensure that one is any good at all

at

> practice.

>

nothing can ensure that one is any good at all

at practice. All we can do in education is provide

students access to the knowledge. Everyone has to

learn it for themselves.

Above the entrance to Royce Hall at UCLA, the founders

of that institution inscribed the following words:

" Education is learning to use the tools that the

race has found indispensable. "

Using this definition of education and applying

it to Chinese medicine, it is not possible to

consider as valid an education in Chinese medicine

that does not teach students to use the tools that

have been found indispensable by generations of

scholars and doctors in China.

If we want to see a substantial upgrade of our

field we have to begin by demanding it of ourselves

and of each other. There is no other way that it

will come about except through the efforts of individuals

to make it happen.

Ken

December 17, 2001

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> Dan,

>

> >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing

> > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice

>

> It can't be both that it is not requisite and is

> a prerequisite at Dan's school.

I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, but that he knows plenty of

px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps there are

those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite this

lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? I

have no idea.

December 17, 2001

I believe that Pacific College of Oriental Medicine will require medical

Chinese in the next year or so, at least as part of the doctorate, along

with study of the classical literature.

On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 05:07 AM, Rory Kerr wrote:

>

> --

> This points out one of the main reasons we do not have Chinese

> medical language in the schools of Chinese medicine. I believe most

> of the schools are operated to maximize profit, and therefore the

> idea of selecting out students in this way is a non starter, and is

> the reason Chinese language is unlikely to become a prerequisite for,

> or a feature of, their programs. Same applies to a serious study of

> the classic literature.

>

> Its nice to know there is one school operating on a different

> principle. Are there others?

>

> Rory

> --

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

December 18, 2001

> > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing

> > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice

> >

> > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is

> > a prerequisite at Dan's school.

>

> I think Dan said it is immensely helpful,

Which is why he makes it a prerequisite.

>... but that he knows plenty of

> px who do just fine w/o it.

Well, what's plenty? And are we comfortable

with doing without something that is so

immensely helpful?

> How is this possible?

It doesn't seem all that mysterious to me.

It's possible that someone can be a " born

healer " and, after all, all that the theory

and methods speak to and address is an understanding

of the body and its circumstances. But again,

do we want to rely upon such phenomena as

the basis of instruction and examination?

The Chinese tended to prefer a more orderly

approach when it came to the establishment

of organizations and agencies designed to

promulgate medicine. Doesn't it strike you

as a bit bizarre that we in the West have

struck out on our own path without even

bothering to become fully familiar with

the traditional ways and means?

Perhaps there are

> those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite

this

> lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that

quality? I

> have no idea.

Lots of people are born with lots of gifts.

Medical education can develop the inborn

capacities if it is properly conducted.

Or it can stifle them.

It's not unimaginable that someone could be

born to something as complicated as flying

an airplane. I've known people who virtually

taught themselves to fly a plane. You might

not find flying with them all that comfortable

however.

While what you say is unarguably true, it

does not address the issue of the importance

of language and literary studies in the curricula

of students of Chinese medicine. Yet you state

it as a brush off of the argument in favor

of the inclusion of these aspects of the study

suggesting that simply because something can be

or might be that we should depend on it.

And I just don't find this to be convincing

logic.

Ken

>

December 18, 2001

This is a most interesting conversation. It brings up many questions that

I've been asking myself.

****** warning, this is a long post, you can just skip to the bottom to

avoid my rambling **************

I have a few thoughts on learning Chinese, especially as it applies to

practicing Chinese medicine. I'm currently living Taipei, where I have been

studying Chinese full time, in an attempt to see if the language really does

illuminate the practice of the medicine. I have more questions than answers,

and an assortment of cherished hopes and dreams that now laying rusting and

molding in the damp of Taiwan.

I've heard it said that language gives the keys to a culture. It's like a

window into another world. I believe it. In studying Chinese, I'm beginning

to see how the grammar forces you into thinking in a certain way. It focuses

your attention, parses experience into a certain rhythm and pattern. While I

can sometimes catch the drift of the grammar, I'm sorry to say that I

generally think in English. Chinese words, English phrasing. It's a

frustration. A little language, for me, has not changed my world view. It

only makes me realize how limited I've constructed the world.

8 months in Asia has certainly given me some firsthand experience with the

culture that this medicine grows from. I see it used here in ways that are

more integrated with the culture (of course). You can buy a si wu tang like

drink in the 7/11. It is very common for woman to tonify their blood after

their periods, and to know a fair amount about basic formulas. Herb stores

are everywhere. People understand that there are certain foods that are hot

or cold.

Asia has also shown me how arrogant my thinking has been.

I thought if I learned something of the language and culture, I could,

perhaps, be a better doctor. What I'm finding is that learning about the

culture means a lot more than learning a little Chinese. This culture is

vast. A little language does not help me to penetrate very far. There are

ways of doing and thinking here at are wildly different. Little things like

guan xi and 'Face'. I'd heard about them. But, navigating them on a daily

basis. It's like stepping into an Alice in Wonderland world. I come from a

culture that places a high value on a person's 'insides' matching their

'outsides'. We call it congruency. Here in Taiwan that will not get you very

far. You have to argue around the issue with a smile. Will this help me to

be a better doctor? I don't know, I've yet master the art of giving and

saving Face. And yet to treat a patient, where I consider their problem as

something more something to be 'fixed'. I've yet to work with a persons

symptoms in the same way I'd negotiate a deal that saves and gives Face.

I thought being able to read a little medical Chinese, knowing the pinyin of

herbs, and having read some translations of some Chinese classics might give

me a leg up on learning Chinese here. I was so wrong. The first thing I

learned is that pinyin has very little to do with Chinese. Pinyin is a

system that approximates the sounds of Chinese. But, if you don't learn the

tones, AND do it right. Make mistakes and get corrected. Over and again,

then you have learned to speak something that is not English, nor is it

Chinese. I learned this by walking into an herb store and trying to buy a

few herbs. I was completely misunderstood. I'm not saying we should not be

teaching people to use pinyin, but we should also make it clear that this is

NOT Chinese. Unless we want to teach it correctly, which I think will be

difficult, very few Americans know enough pronunciation to teach it

correctly.

I previously thought that knowing a little language would open up the world

of Eastern thought to me. Maybe. But, if it does, I suspect it will take

years of dedicated study. Not a few months of translating some articles. I

suspect that that is simply Western thought with Chinese words.

What tipped me off to this was looking at how Asian's use English. There is

a thing here I call Asian English. It is terribly funny. You can see it on

buildings, in advertisements, in the mottoes adorn the scooters here. It is

completely laughable. The apartment building that says 'Performance of

Architecture " . The scooter that claims, " We reach for the sky, neither does

civilization " . The scooter that says, " for the young at heart that want to

get away with it all " . The menu that says " Baked Chicken Nugget " and " Chess

Ham Wich " . English here is used in ways that are hilarious. But, no one here

thinks it is funny. Just us English speakers. I wonder if my grasp of the

little Chinese I have is as off the mark, as the English I see in Asia. It

certainly gives me pause to think.

More than anything, spending some time in Asia and having my Western ideas

about this place ripped away has been helpful. Being exposed to Asian

racism, Asian hospitality, Asian standards of 'cleanliness', Asian

generosity, the cultural norms, the ways traffic and people flow. The ways

people connect. All this has given me a deeper appreciation for how people,

where ever we are, find solutions to the problems of life.

All this is a wordy way of saying:

1. I think learning some Chinese is a good idea.

2. Learning Chinese is a serious study. Three years of Chinese in Chinese

medical school gave me a glimpse, but not an unobstructed view. Chinese

medicinal school is a lot of work. Better to have studied some Chinese

BEFORE going to medical school.

3. Pinyin is not Chinese. It might allow Americans to talk to each other,

but it will not help you to talk to real Chinese speakers.

4. I suspect that a lot of the worldview is encoded in the grammar, the way

you focus and parse experience into thought, thought into meaning. And

meaning into action.

5. Taiwan is really fun sometimes, and the food rocks!

December 18, 2001

Will,

Exception taken. However, your pay scale is, in my experience, an

exception rather than the rule.

Bob

, Will <will@e...> wrote:

> Bob –

>

> I must take exception to your thoughtful, long and detailed post

when it

> comes to Emperor's College.

>

> To quote the Accreditation commission " The Chinese faculty members

are

> among the most qualified and experienced practitioners anywhere.

> Doctoral degrees and post-doctoral fellowships are abundant,

creating a

> strong foundation for the eventual inclusion of a doctoral program

at

> the college. " No faculty member has less than five years experience

with

> the exception of a physical therapist/acupuncturist of 10 years

> experience in physical therapy and two years as an acupuncturist

> teaching the acu-anatomy course.

>

> Our pay scale is between $30-$45 an hour depending on background.

This

> comes nowhere near compensating these individuals for what they

bring to

> the table. However, at $120 a unit, faculty salaries amount to more

than

> half the annual revenue. I would love to pay these people more – but

we

> would have to close. Average Master's degree program fees are about

$565

> a unit nationwide. If we begin to approximate the subsidy and fee

> structures of the conventional educational systems, then the fee

scales

> you suggest for faculty become plausible.

>

> Will

>

> PS here is a brief summary of some of our faculty members who

currently

> serve the Master's program. They are each qualified for doctoral

level

> training. Some of them are qualified for teaching in the highest

> academic posts in China.

>

> John Chen, Pharm.D., L.Ac.

> Pharm.D., USC School of Pharmacy

> PhD, OMD, South Baylor University

> BA, California State University, Fullerton

> Dr. Chen is currently an assistant professor in the University of

> Southern California School of Pharmacy. In addition, he is President

and

> Founder of Lotus Herbs.

>

> Hua Gu, Ph.D., L.Ac.

> Ph.D., China Academy of TCM, Beijing, China Orthopedic and

Traumatology

> specialist. Medicine Doctorate from Guangchou Medical College,

China.

> Dr. Gu is the only person in the U.S. to hold a Ph.D. in TCM

Orthopedics

> and is the Founder of the American Acupuncture Academy. Recent

> publications include:

>

> • Clinical Traditional : Ortho-

> pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science,

> • Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology.

> Guang-shi, China: Scientific and

> Technological Publisher,

> • Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related

> Diseases. China Scientific

>

> John Gu, L.Ac.

> Shanghai University of TCM, China

> Neiqiang Gu is from the famous Gu family lineage of Shanghai. His

father

> and grandfather practiced the dermatological specialty which

includes

> the surgical procedures of TCM. The Gu family lineage has many

secret

> prescriptions, especially in the arena of external applications. He

has

> been officially entitled and registered Asian academic inheritor of

the

> Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional Chinese

Specialists,

> the highest rank for Traditional Chinese Medical Doctors in the

Peoples

> Republic of China. With forty years of experience, Dr. Gu has

published

> more than thirty research papers and books including:

" Differentiation

> and Treatment of Psoriasis " , " Differentiation and Treatment of

Eczema " ,

> " Studies of 100 Cases on Warts " , " Six Methods to Treat Vitiligo by

Boha

> Gu " , and " Clinical Experiences from Xiaoyan Gu " .

>

> Jerome Jiang, Ph.D., Chinese Classics, East China

> Normal University, China

> Professor Jiang has taught and conducted research at universities in

> China, Japan and the United States. He has taught many courses in

> Traditional and Chinese languages and philosophies,

> including the " Yellow Emperor's Classic. " Recent publications

include:

>

> • Annotation and Analysis on the Book of

> Odes, China Publishing House, Oct. 1991

> • The Variorum of the Analects of Confu-

> cius (textual criticism and punctuation)

> China Publishing House (Zhong Hua

> Shu Ju), Oct. 1990

> • Thirty Treatises on Taoist Literature,

> Shanghai Social Science Publishing

> House, Sep. 1993

> • Selected Translation of The Book of

> Odes, Ba Shu Publishing House, Jun. 1990

> • The Modern Annotation and Translation

> of the Book of Odes, Yue Lu Publishing

> House, 1994

> • I Ching, Lao Tse and the Yin Yang

> Theory, The Fifth International Congress

> of , Jun. 1990

>

> Xiu-Ling Ma, Ph.D., L.Ac.

> Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China

> MS, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China

> MD, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China

> Dr. Ma is one of the most highly educated professionals in the field

of

> Traditional (TCM), both in China and in the United

> States. She graduated first in her class from the prestigious

Beijing

> University of TCM and completed twelve full years of education in

> integrated TCM and Western Medicine. As part of her education, Dr.

Ma

> studied directly under two distinguished TCM Masters in China-Dr.

> Jia-San Yang and Dr. Zi-Fu Chen, both of whom accept only one or two

> students each year. Before coming to Los Angeles in 1995, Dr. Ma was

a

> professor, physician and researcher at the Beijing University of

TCM.

> She also conducted clinical research as to the efficacy of herbs and

> acupuncture in treating various illnesses, such as stroke, asthma,

> diabetes, the common cold and many others. Dr. Ma is authorized to

> treat patients at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center and at the Daniel

Freeman

> Marina Hospital. She is also the Acupuncture Program Director of a

> research project on acupuncture for stroke patients, a project

> coordinated by the USC School of Medicine, Daniel Freeman Hospital

> Marina and Emperor's College. Dr. Ma also maintains a private

practice

> at the Acu-Herbal Medical Arts. Dr Ma has published over a dozen

books

> and articles on TCM subjects. Recent publications include:

>

> • Pocket Manual of Practical Acupuncture.

> Tianjin, China: Tianjin Scientech

> Publishing House, 1995.

> • Practical Acupuncture Treatment

> for Diseases of the Nervous System. China

> Traditional Publishing

> House, 1994.

> • Fifteen Kinds of Medical Skills. China

> Traditional Publishing

> House, 1996.

> • The Selected Works for Health Preservation of

> Ancient China. Beijing Broadcast College

> Publishing House, 1992.

> • Progress of Clinical and Experimental Studies

> on Acupuncture Treatment of Cerebrovascular

> Diseases.

> • Experience of Professor Jia-san Yang in

> Epilepsy Treatment with Acupuncture.

> Education of Traditional .

> 1994;3:46.

>

> Zhou Yi Qiu, L.Ac.

> Postdoctoral fellow in Cardiology,

> Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TX

> Cardiology Training, Sun Yat Sen (Guangzhou) Medical University,

> Guangzhou, China

> Dr. Qiu is a unique addition to Emperor's College due to his

background

> in TCM Cardiology. Recent publications include:

>

> • Short-term Effect of Treating Congestive

> Heart Failure with Ilexanin A, Collected

> papers of the Second Symposium of Cardiovas-

> cular Disease of Guangdong Provincial Heart

> Association of integrated Traditional Chinese

> Medicine and Western Medicine.1992;78.

> • Progress of Traditional

> studies on essential hypertension.

> Collected papers of the first international

> conference of Traditional .

> 1993;39.

>

> Tiande Yang, Ph.D., L.Ac.

> Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China

> Dr. Yang has been officially entitled and registered Asian academic

> inheritor of the Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional

> Chinese Specialists, the highest rank for Traditional Chinese

Medical

> Doctors in the Peoples Republic of China. To preserve the heritage

of

> , 500 of the most respected Chinese Doctors selected

two

> pupils each to pass on their time-honored medical knowledge and

skills.

> Dr. Yang is one of the 1,000 elects and started his apprenticeship

under

> his father at age 16. As an Assistant Professor of Traditional

Chinese

> Medicine at the Beijing College of Traditional

since

> 1988, he was the physician in charge of the Department of

Acupuncture

> and Moxibustion at the Beijing Dongzhimen Hospital.

>

> Yun Kyoung Yim, Ph.D., L.Ac.

> Ph.D., Kyung Hee University, Seoul, South Korea

> Dr. Yim has counseled and assisted Neuro-Acupuncture research at

> University of California, Irvine's Medical Department. She has

> conducted extensive research and theses on acupuncture, moxabustion,

and

> heart disease. Dr. Yim is currently a supervisor and instructor at

> Emperor's College and Clinic.

>

> <<

> 1. Hire professorial level teachers to teach Masters and Doctoral

> level programs, not the equivalent of teaching assistants (TAs).

>

> By this I mean: A) Do national and international job searches for

> qualified professors who 1) read at least one Far East Asian

language,

> 2) have at least 10 years clinical experience in Chinese medicine,

3)

> are fluent English speakers, and 4) have some training in Western

> educational philosophy, techniques, and academic standards.

>

> Since there is, in my experience, a dearth of such qualified people,

> this means that there should be less programs. I believe that it

would

> be better to turn out fewer but better trained practitioners than

> more, lesser trained practitioners (at least when it comes to the

> internal administration of Chinese medicinals, as opposed to

> acupuncture). I believe Dan Bensky's school is on the right tract in

> terms of size vis a vis quality control.

>

> 2. Pay those professors a professorial salary of not less than $70K

> per annum.

>

> Right now and, again, in my experience, schools pay somewhere

between

> $25-30 per hour, with most teachers only working part time at

teaching

> and few schools paying for class prep time. Far too often, our

> teachers teach because they are not busy in their own clinics or

they

> need a employer-secured green card. Too many of our teachers are

> recent graduates with less than 5 years clinical experience or

recent

> immigrants who A) cannot communicate a doctoral level of technical

> material in doctoral level English and B) have yet to really

> understand the requirements of doing Chinese medicine with our

patient

> population. The first requirement of an effective professional

teacher

> is not necessarily being the wrold's greatest expert in their field

> but being an effective communicator to the target audience. This

means

> that persons who may be crackerjack practitioners or even well known

> teachers in China may not be particularly effective teachers in the

> U.S.

>

> 3. Require professors to conduct research, translate, and/or publish

> just like professors in bona fide doctoral programs would be

expected

> in regular academe.

>

> 4. Require more stringent entrance levels. If we're are truly going

> for a doctoral level program, then how come we don't require the

GRE?

> I believe a B.A. or B.S. should be absolutely mandatory, even of the

> current " M.S. " level students. The older I get, the more I believe

> that there's just no substitute for a good all-around, general

> education. Studying logic may, seemingly, have nothing to do with

the

> clinical practice of Chinese medicine, but it teaches one to think,

> and thinking most certainly does have to do with the clinical

practice

> of Chinese medicine. Likewise, studying anthropology may seem

> irrelevant, but, from my personal experience, studying some medical

> anthropology has helped me immensely in getting clear about certain

> aspects of Chinese medical psychiatry. >>

December 18, 2001

Todd--

.. ..plenty of px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps there are

those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite this

lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? I

have no idea.

Could it be that some practitioners' intuitive sense forms a bridge?

Some former life connection with China?

I, too, have only a few suppositions as to why, and I'm glad you added

these thoughts to this conversation.

Frances

1 wrote:

, "dragon90405"

<yulong@m...> wrote:

> Dan,

>

> >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing

> > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice

>

> It can't be both that it is not requisite and is

> a prerequisite at Dan's school.

I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, but that he knows plenty

of

px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps

there are

those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite

this

lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that

quality? I

have no idea.

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

December 18, 2001

Perhaps the utility of reading Chinese has something to do with

whether one is primarily doing acupuncture or primarily prescribing

internal meds. Personally, since I don't think Chinese medical theory

is absolutely necessary for getting results with acupuncture, I don't

feel as strongly that acupuncturists need to read Chinese. I

feel the same way about tuina. However, I feel quite differently about

the prescription of Chinese meds. While Mark VanBenschoten has

recently argued that Chinese medical theory is not necessary to

prescribe Chinese meds, I still think it is the most useful system for

their prescription, and it is my experience that understanding the

Chinese language and having access to the Chinese literature makes a

large difference in understanding and, therefore, applying this system

in clinical practice.

I've seen plenty of acupuncturists get good results who did not have

access to the Chinese literature (or much of any literature, for that

matter). However, most of the really good prescribers of Chinese meds

I know have at least some access to the Chinese literature. Further,

as a teacher, I've seen a marked increase in students' ability to

practice internal Chinese medicine concomitant with their increased

ability to access the Chinese literature. In addition, I have been

impressed (specifically with their herbal expertise) with the

graduates of Dan's school who have moved to Boulder fresh after

graduation compared to recent graduates of other schools.

I agree with Dan that one does not have to read Chinese to be a good

practitioner. There are many factors that go to making a good

practitioner, and I think it is important that we recognize that some

of those factors differ between acupuncture and Chinese herbalism.

When it comes to prescribing Chinese medicinals, I think reading

Chinese makes a big difference in really grokking the system.

Bob

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> > Dan,

> >

> > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing

> > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice

> >

> > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is

> > a prerequisite at Dan's school.

>

> I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, but that he knows plenty

of

> px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps there

are

> those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite

this

> lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality?

I

> have no idea.

>

December 18, 2001

Z'ev (and, by extension Jack et al),

Bravo!

Bob

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> I believe that Pacific College of Oriental Medicine will require

medical

> Chinese in the next year or so, at least as part of the doctorate,

along

> with study of the classical literature.

>

> On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 05:07 AM, Rory Kerr wrote:

> >

> > --

> > This points out one of the main reasons we do not have Chinese

> > medical language in the schools of Chinese medicine. I believe

most

> > of the schools are operated to maximize profit, and therefore the

> > idea of selecting out students in this way is a non starter, and

is

> > the reason Chinese language is unlikely to become a prerequisite

for,

> > or a feature of, their programs. Same applies to a serious study

of

> > the classic literature.

> >

> > Its nice to know there is one school operating on a different

> > principle. Are there others?

> >

> > Rory

> > --

> >

>

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

variety

> > of professional services, including board approved online

continuing

> > education.

> >

December 18, 2001

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

>

> While what you say is unarguably true, it

> does not address the issue of the importance

> of language and literary studies in the curricula

> of students of Chinese medicine. Yet you state

> it as a brush off of the argument in favor

> of the inclusion of these aspects of the study

> suggesting that simply because something can be

> or might be that we should depend on it.

It is not meant to brush off the importance of this undertaking.

However, there are good practitioners out there who are deeply offended

by statements to the effect that without knowing chinese, they border

on malpractice. Most people have to learn scales, but there are always

a few mozarts. The logic of chinese studies is unassailable. the

reality of good px who don't do this is also without question.

December 18, 2001

I suspect different sides of the brain, so pattern recognition

(right side) and language (left side) use different resources.

Connections can be made but studying language does not necessarily

imply competency in pattern recognition. Learning language will help

round out the whole person (the college humanities position) and

reinforce associations that can include diagnostic pattern

recognition, but it isn't necessary to do so.

In Dong Han pulse diagnosis we always palpate the pulse using only

the left hand to improve the connection to the right side of the

brain and increase the nerve endings in the fingertips. We learn to

look at much greater details than basic TCM, which uses both hands

with different sensitivities. Using only the one hand allows you to

needle and check pulses at the same time; but, more importantly,

there is concentrated training to increase sensitivity---that is,

the quanitity and quality of nerve connections.

Jim Ramholz

, Frances Gander <fgander@c...> wrote:

--

>

> > . ..plenty of px who do just fine w/o it. How is this

possible? Perhaps there are

> > those who are able to discern the patterns and principles

despite this

> > lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that

quality? I

> > have no idea.

> >

>

> Could it be that some practitioners' intuitive sense forms a

bridge?

> Some former life connection with China?

> I, too, have only a few suppositions as to why, and I'm glad you

added

> these thoughts to this conversation.

>

> Frances

>

> 1 wrote:

>

> > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...>

wrote:

> > > Dan,

> > >

> > > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing

> > > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice

> > >

> > > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is

> > > a prerequisite at Dan's school.

> >

> > I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, but that he knows

plenty of

> > px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps

there are

> > those who are able to discern the patterns and principles

despite this

> >

> > lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that

quality? I

> >

> > have no idea.

> >

>

> >

December 18, 2001

Bob,

Matt VanBenschoten argues that knotty diseases seem to respond better to

chinese herbs based on a pharmacological approach. I would be surprised

if he was making a blanket statement about the whole system.

Warren

December 18, 2001

thanks for sharing your experience. i really enjoyed reading your thoughts. i

too had a similiar take on my china experience in harbin, but believe me the

food did not rock. it was a great way to lose 10 pounds though!

susan

December 18, 2001

It would seem that if one learned adequately the theory and logic behind

treating knotty diseases in Chinese medicine, i.e. Li-Zhu medicine, Liu

Wan-su's Law of Similar Transformation, Nan Jing Five Phase theory and

the like, that one wouldn't need to limit the use of Chinese herbs to a

pharmacological approach. One of the problems I have with the Van

Benschoten approach is that Western pharmacological theory does not have

a method to determine appropriate combinations of medicines as Chinese

medicine does.

On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 10:22 AM, Warren Cargal wrote:

> Bob,

>

> Matt VanBenschoten argues that knotty diseases seem to respond better to

> chinese herbs based on a pharmacological approach. I would be surprised

> if he was making a blanket statement about the whole system.

>

> Warren

>

December 18, 2001

Well, this list is a busy place! Let's see if I can reply to

everyone

in one message as they are somewhat related:

Alon asked about particulars as to how even a smattering of

Chinese helps students learn Chinese medicine.

I'll give a couple of examples off the top of my head:

1) There are at least a few important words that as far as I can

tell are impossible to translate well. If the students learn these

words and what they mean, the Chinese can be used in clinical

discussions enabling everyone to " cut to the chase. " One

example of this is tong1 " unblocked, free-flowing, free, unstop,

etc. " There are many other examples.

2) Chinese is a culture of context and relationships and

harmony. I think the emphasis on these is one of the hallmarks

of the medicine. Studying any aspect of Chinese language

brings this out very, very clearly. For example, in classical

Chinese, many verbs are about a relationship rather than the

linear direction of that relationship (which is determined by

context). Examples are that the same word can mean " give " or

" receive; " another word can mean " to present from a

superior to

an inferior " or " to present from an inferior to a

superior. " This,

along with the parallelism that is inherent in the language, helps

people understand such concepts as the interrelationships of

the five phases.

Ken asked a couple of questions:

1) Is the change in our requirements a lessening of the Chinese

language instruction?

No. We are continuing the same amount of instruction in the

school's curriculum. Now that as of next fall all incoming

students will have at least one semester of Chinese before

coming here, we expect that we will be able to cover significantly

more material and have better outcomes. If there is something

that I wrote that gave you the opposite impression, please point it

out to me so that I can correct it.

2) How could I say that Chinese in not requisite for successful

practice [Todd's paraphrase] yet have it as a prerequisite for

our

school?

I found this an interesting question, though not one that made

immediate sense to me. One has to do with the way things are;

the other with the way I want to do things. The number of

thoughtful successful practitioners just on this list who read no

East Asian language are obvious evidence that one can get

along without this skill. Practicing medicine is such a humbling

experience that it has taught even someone like me that it is

hubris to think anyone really knows what it takes to do it well.

On the other hand, when Paul Karsten (who is the educational

specialist behind our school - I am just along for the ride) and I

started thinking about starting SIOM many years ago, it was just

as obvious to me that without a language component it just

would not be worth my while to be involved in the school. I think a

decent analogy is that while there are good cooks who only have

one arm and brilliant rock climbers who are blind, it is easier to

cook with two arms and rock climb if you can see.

This gets back to our mission and goals. In the simplest terms,

we have been trying to provide the students with the right

dynamic, to set them off on a good trajectory so that with the

tools that they have learned from us, the experience that their

patients give them, and the further learning they will get in post-

graduate seminars, they will continue to grow as practitioners

and deepen their understanding of the medicine. It is way too

soon to tell if we have been successful.

Finally, while it may appear to be self-serving, I have to take

exception to some of Bob Flaws' remarks about future pathways

of education. While clearly he and I agree on much in this regard,

I am afraid that I don't think that university-based education

will

be the salvation of our field here. The reason is that the industrial

model of education has its own dynamics and culture and shi4

[propensities/inclinations/forces]; to me most of these are

inimical to the study of Chinese medicine.

Dan

December 18, 2001

- You're assuming that if you knew somethingthat you do not then things would look thesame as they do to you now. I don't thinkthat's a safe assumption.

>>>That I do agree with. And I may/or not have a diffrent view if I have put more energy on Chinese. All I can go with is to compar to frinds that did

Alon

dragon90405

Monday, December 17, 2001 8:55 PM

Re: Chinese language requirements

Alon,> > >>>Obviously the more one knows the better he is. And I applaud those of you who are trying to master the language so that you can judge for yourselves. I am just wandering in the US what is ones best use of timeI don't find the "best use of time" argumentto be particularly convincing. What it boilsdown to is you have to have a value systemto make such judgments. And a value systemthat does not incorporate the values of thelanguage and literature of the subject doesnot accurately reflect the subject.I think the time issue is a red herring.Of course everybody wants to put theirtime to the best possible use. But to somethat's sitting on the couch watching TVand to others it's jumping out of an airplane.You're assuming that if you knew somethingthat you do not then things would look thesame as they do to you now. I don't thinkthat's a safe assumption. Bucky Fuller used to point out, as in An Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth,that even if we were to learn today thateverything we'd held true up until todaywere found to be false, we would still knowmore today than yesterday. The value of that one new datum that one bit of knowledge that allows you to reevaluate your previous accumulationshould not be underestimated.I understand that you feel the way youfeel and believe what you say to be true,but the reason for an exchange such as thisis to take a close look at assumptions andsee if they stand up to scrutiny. Yourassertion about the best use of time, i.e.that it is not the best use of one's timeto learn Chinese medical langauge comparedto studying "the medicine" does not scrutinizeany of the underlying arguments that suggestthat "the medicine" having been written by people who thought and spoke using Chineselanguage, is therefore inexorably marked withthe characteristics of that langauge, as wellas a range of other cultural influences.Teachers have always faced the task ofteaching their students to think for themselves.Those who developed and transmitted the principlesand methods of "the medicine" did so using thecharacteristics of Chinese language, Chineseepistemology, and a range of other artifactsof knolwedge that remain as worthy of inclusion inthe education and training of doctors ofthe medicine today as ever.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

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