Chinese language requirements

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> It's not just a matter of " knowing the language. "

> Without knowing the language, one does not know

> the way in which the elements of theory interact.

>

> Therefore, being proficient with this aspect

> of language learning is critically important

> in the education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.

 

 

This can be the case when translation is only done literally term

for term. But with a more literary translation, glossaries,

commentaries, or footnotes, there should be no obstacle to learning.

There are always nuances and " untranslatable " aspects in every

language (like jokes, for example); but they can be dealt with and

accomodated. How the elements of theory interact should make sense

in English, too.

 

One or two years of studying Chinese alone won't solve this problem.

I think the greater importance of learning the Chinese langauge is

to find yet untranslated materials that will fill in the lacuna of

present theory and clarify what is undeveloped.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim asked:

And we should hear from practitioners who have done seminars on

teaching Chinese medical language---how well attended and successful

are they?

>

I am in Holland and contacted the Dutch Association of

Physicians-Acupuncturists (+/- 3000) members in the summer of 2000,

proposing them to write and teach a basic course in (t)cm-chinese, including

the names of acupoints. It was (enthusiastically) received by 8 students.

This year there's no course there, because only 5 people signed up. Last

summer I started to promote the course on my own and in a new formula,

mingled with (medically oriented) taiji-qigong (other teacher). Have been

advertising among

the most important tcm-organizations & schools here and now have 8 students.

I have to say that I like to work in small groups, because I give much

attention to pronunciation ( & people mostly want to learn some

conversational chinese as well). Although, right now, there's really only a

very small amount of people involved in TCM who are prepared and interested

in learning some Chinese (I only know of one other course in Holland, some

10 students I think, and it's for free!!!), the course is very succesful and

all the time 'eye-opening', also for those who have been practising for

years

already.

I also think, that in years to come, there'll be more and more interest (one

reason being that at least one TCM-school here is starting to require

knowledge of herb-names and acupoints in pinyin).

 

>

Bob wrote:

.... we have plans to add the Yi Lin Gai Cuo and the Xue Zheng Lun to this

series in the next year or so ...

>

I just received a copy of Gunter R. Neeb's 'Das Blutstasesyndrom' which,

among other pieces of translation, includes a complete translation into

German of the Yi Lin Gai Cuo. Thought it's maybe good for you and others

here

to know and have a look if you read German, it's a real worthwhile

publication - many case-histories as well. (not bilingual ... my ideal would

be tri- or multilingual, remembering having to compare all existing

translations of some philosophical texts in college -- : all these

books...).

>

Dan wrote:

In any case, at our school we have found this process a bit more

difficult that we first thought - notably relating to the issues of

time and energy that Z'ev noted. For that reason, starting next

year, we are requiring at least one term of college level Chinese

for entry into our program.

>

I thought from this year on there were already colleges in the USA with

this requirement - or is yours the first?

>

Lorraine wrote:

So, don't be discouraged. Little by little, there will be more who are

inspired to do the work and see the medicine directly without the

screen of the English (or other foreign) language.

 

Ken commented on that:

The move to require an introduction to Chinese language is an important step

to the establishment of generally higher standards. I applaud it.

 

and Ken wrote:

..... I admit that I am far more interested in hearing the disagreements. I

reckon that the status quo being what it is, there must be a vast " silent

majority " (to use a phrase from another time and circumstance) that do not

agree. And I am very interested to learn more about the nature and substance

of such disagreements.

>

I'm afraid that this 'nature and substance' is very banal most of the time.

It's: ''no time, no money''. And a lot of people still seem to think that

studying Chinese medicine can be done in a couple of years of part-time

study. There are even students who complain that everything is in English...

and Maciocia has been translated into German and Dutch, can you imagine??

Still, since tcm-colleges in 'the West' seem to be busy raising the

standards, Chinese will be included

in the mandatory part of the education within a couple of years. That's my

prediction for this small country here anyway, and I'm going to continue

promoting it. Let's keep encouraging each other.

 

So I'm involved in trying to correct (sometimes really severe)

terminological (and conceptual!) errors being made here all the time, mostly

due to translations of (sometimes bad) translations and try to develop a

coherent Dutch terminology of TCM, while based on Chinese checking with

Wiseman and others all the time of course... but the main focus is

understanding more of the Chinese.

 

I think another 'nature and substance' is that learning Chinese isn't

generally regarded as absolutely necessary (Dan mentioned this as well).

Here, most TCM-teachers, apart from the Chinese of course, don't know

any Chinese at all... and according to my experience, some are a little bit

afraid of somebody who does... (I know it's narrow-minded, but it's

happening).

another argument I often hear here for objecting cq finding it unnecessary

to learn chinese is the growing body of literature in western languages.

''There's so much to read & study already...'' is a remark I often hear when

I try to promote a title...

(strange - the profession is crying for more translations but it seems to be

a minority reading them...)

 

hope my remarks are 'in-list-able'.

(Lorraine, I'll contact you off-list about your -group...)

 

Herman

[Guest guest]

>Ken, Dan, Bob, others:

 

>What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and

>proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of

>study in a curriculum?

 

>Off the top of my head, I would think at least being able to read

>the characters for herbs and acupuncture points.

 

If I may take a moment to address a topical tangent: I have spent

countless hours with members of this group in offline discussions

regarding the best way to approach the the Study of standard Mandarin

as well as medical Chinese. As a preface to this post let me be

clear by saying that I am only a few steps down the path. I've spent

the last 7 months studying contemporary Mandarin (mostly with the

John Defrancis texts/tapes). When I compare what I've studied to

medical Chinese I already see many areas of crossover, and I often

wonder at what point should I re-channel my efforts into Chinese

medical language. My issue is this: the pedagogy of standard

Mandarin is well developed, e.g. the science of teaching grammar,

word order, sentence structure, et cetera. However the task of

teaching medical Chinese to an adult " mandarin ignorant " person is

very new territory. There are so many questions. Does one start

with classical, modern, or considering the existing landscape do you

study both?. Additionally I have to believe that linguistic context

is important when trying to derive meaning from a journal or classic

text. Jumping into medical Chinese without first establishing a

context seems premature. But what is the required context? Is it a

few years of putonghua? Is it a thorough understanding of Chinese

history? Is it a matter of cultural immersion? Granted all of these

would are important, but where does one begin focusing one's

energies? What are the first few baby steps? To those of you that

have worked hard over the years to achieve a degree of fluency, I ask

this: with full use of hindsight, and with the understanding that

we're all in this for the long haul - what approach to learning makes

sense? And should that approach be different for a 1st year student

of TCM than for a practitioner. Assuming a prior background in TCM

is a major factor, what target audience should be considered for

future texts (I know some of you have pen in hand as I write this...)

 

Surely these are some of the challenges that face Dan as he considers

the curriculum at his school. Personally I've found it to be one of

the most humbling situations I've encountered in my entire life - I'm

faced with a sea of knowledge and I don't know where to begin

swimming.

 

Kind regards,

Tim " treading water " Sharpe

 

PS - Kudos for the work put into " Who can ride the dragon " . It packs

a mighty wallop of context if I do say so myself.

[Guest guest]

, " Ruth Goldenberg " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> It's not just a matter of " knowing the language. "

> Without knowing the language, one does not know

> the way in which the elements of theory interact.

>

> Therefore, being proficient with this aspect

> of language learning is critically important

> in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.

> >>>>>Although I understand what you are saying, taking this to an

extreme will mean that unless you have grown up with Chinese you will

never be able to truly learn the medicine.

 

You say that you understand what I'm talking about,

but you are responding to something other than

what I'm saying. Also, I am not suggesting that

we take this " to the extreme, " so again, you are

arguing against an idea that is not the one

that I have stated.

 

I'm suggesting that we take this to the root,

not the extreme. I'm suggesting that we start

with the most basic things, like learning

enough of the language and exploring enough

of the literary expressions and texts so that

the student develops a grasp of how the

Chinese have thought about the subjects

which are the focus of Chinese medical theory.

 

Without this basic grasp, students have

to utterly depend upon what someone else

tells them that the theories mean. They

have a hard time learning to think and

reason with theory as a result, because

the foundation remains weak.

 

With time one learns to think in a second language but it is never

pure. As one that takes the position that medicine is nothing more

than treating patients and getting predictable results, I have to

strongly disagree with these assumptions.

 

Certainly the focal point of medicine is the

clinical encounter, but there is an extensive

infrastructure that underlies and supports

most systems and/or methods of medical intervention.

To paraphrase John Donne, no doctor is an island.

 

If we within the profession do not develop and

provide the foundation to support future growth

and development of the subject, who will?

 

We're all in the same boat. What I have concluded,

and I don't think that it's an assumption, is that

a strong foundation of understanding of the thought

processes upon which medical theory depend for

their vitality gives students a much deeper and

keaner understanding of those theories. I do not

see this as an end in itself, but as a method of

achieving clinical expertise so that students become

able to treat patients and get predictable results.

 

> May be we should start calling this scholars of

and Culture. Not Doctors of Medicine. I am glad that at least Bensy's

school seems to be strongly clinically, and system based, as this

integrates real life thinking. Schools should decide what they

believe is important in the process of making clinicians, but to me

to be a good clinicians is not the same as a good scholar. Four years

of schooling is a short time and priorities are importent. Its great

that Dan is puting Chinese as a prerequisit and not making it the

purpace in the eductions.

 

Alon, what do you think would happen if a widespread

understanding of Chinese medical language, thought,

literature and theory were to flourish in the States?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

> > It's not just a matter of " knowing the language. "

> > Without knowing the language, one does not know

> > the way in which the elements of theory interact.

> >

> > Therefore, being proficient with this aspect

> > of language learning is critically important

> > in the education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.

>

>

> This can be the case when translation is only done literally term

> for term. But with a more literary translation, glossaries,

> commentaries, or footnotes, there should be no obstacle to

learning.

> There are always nuances and " untranslatable " aspects in every

> language (like jokes, for example); but they can be dealt with and

> accomodated.

 

Saying this reveals that you have become aware

of particular instances of such phenomena. How

did that happen?

 

You must have taken a look at the details. Without

knowing both that such phenomena exist and then

proceeding to understand the details, someone would

not be able to make a statement such as the one you

just made. Nor can one deal with or accomodate such

things without first knowing what they are in detail.

 

So you assert this observation as if it somehow

refutes what I was saying, but in fact it demonstrates

through example that the only way to know about

such things is to know about such things.

 

QED.

 

 

 

How the elements of theory interact should make sense

> in English, too.

 

Should?

 

According to whom? I suppose that an even more

basic question is what sense is made of ancient

Chinese texts when they are translated. I'm in

no way against translation, only poignantly aware

of its limitations as a result of laboring over

it for many years now.

 

When we translate something, we try always to

remain aware of the way in which our rendering

results in an interpretation of the original.

 

If you grab several versions of any often-translated

text, you'll discover the galling limitations of

translation from another point of view. I think

immediately of the Dao De Jing, since it is so

often translated and with such varying interpretations

of meaning. It's quite remarkable.

 

Certainly we can read all the translations, but

the assumption that the original sense of the

text lies in an aggregation of its translated

versions is, I believe, unwarranted.

 

It's sort of like saying that if you look

at all the copies ever made of the Mona Lisa, it's

the same thing as looking at the original.

 

The original is the original, and that's

the whole basis of valuation in terms both

of art and the historicity of texts. That's

why historians labor to determine the actual

history of texts, so that we might know what

was actually said, and when, etc.

 

If you're interested in knowing what the originals

say, you have to deal with them in the original

language.

 

 

> One or two years of studying Chinese alone won't solve this problem.

 

I'm not concerned about solving this problem.

Only in getting other to recognize its existence.

Chinese scholars have been working on this

problem for centuries and it remains unsolved.

 

The point is not to solve it, but to take up

the traditional burden and work at it.

 

 

> I think the greater importance of learning the Chinese langauge is

> to find yet untranslated materials that will fill in the lacuna of

> present theory and clarify what is undeveloped.

>

I'm not sure what the benefit is of ranking

the various importances of learning the Chinese

language might turn out to be, but I certainly

agree with you that discovering and developing

access to a wider sampling of Chinese medical

texts is key. In fact, discoveries continue

to be made in China of old manuscripts, lists

of prespcriptions, and all sorts of other

artifacts that reveal more and more of the

history of medicine here.

 

We'd better get busy, as the problem grows

more complex all the time.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> I'm suggesting that we start

> with the most basic things, like learning

> enough of the language and exploring enough

> of the literary expressions and texts so that

> the student develops a grasp of how the

> Chinese have thought about the subjects

> which are the focus of Chinese medical theory.

 

 

I don't want to belabor this point again, but this has always been

unclear to me. Lincoln said that a man's legs should be long enough

to reach the ground. How much is " enough of the language "

and " enough of the literary expressions and texts " ?

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

I'm suggesting that we take this to the root,not the extreme. I'm suggesting that we startwith the most basic things, like learningenough of the language and exploring enoughof the literary expressions and texts so thatthe student develops a grasp of how theChinese have thought about the subjectswhich are the focus of Chinese medical theory.Without this basic grasp, students haveto utterly depend upon what someone elsetells them that the theories mean. Theyhave a hard time learning to think andreason with theory as a result, because>>>>>>I do not agree that if a student learns the concepts in a language other than Chinese he can not think for him self. Yes he is dependent on translations but the volume of good translations is growing rapidly.

 

 

Alon, what do you think would happen if a widespreadunderstanding of Chinese medical language, thought,literature and theory were to flourish in the States

>>>>>I am not saying it is a bad thing but as I see it people have a limited amount of time and they need to prioritize. I think one is better served studding the medicine and there is plenty to study in English than study Chinese. When I was in school I had to make this choice and only studied minimal Chinese so that I could read formulas and basic herb books.(This was back in the 80's when we had very few good texts) This was not very difficult because the number of characters for this was fairly limited. However, this choice left me with more time to learn as much medicine as I could. I had several friends that made the choice of learning Chinese and at this point I do not see the advantage they have. So I know I did the right choice for me.

All I am really saying is that I strongly disagree that one needs to immerse oneself in Chinese culture and langue to learn Chinese medicine

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Sunday, December 16, 2001 6:38 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

, "Ruth Goldenberg" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> It's not just a matter of "knowing the language."> Without knowing the language, one does not know> the way in which the elements of theory interact.> > Therefore, being proficient with this aspect> of language learning is critically important > in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.> >>>>>Although I understand what you are saying, taking this to an extreme will mean that unless you have grown up with Chinese you will never be able to truly learn the medicine.You say that you understand what I'm talking about,but you are responding to something other thanwhat I'm saying. Also, I am not suggesting thatwe take this "to the extreme," so again, you arearguing against an idea that is not the onethat I have stated. I'm suggesting that we take this to the root,not the extreme. I'm suggesting that we startwith the most basic things, like learningenough of the language and exploring enoughof the literary expressions and texts so thatthe student develops a grasp of how theChinese have thought about the subjectswhich are the focus of Chinese medical theory.Without this basic grasp, students haveto utterly depend upon what someone elsetells them that the theories mean. Theyhave a hard time learning to think andreason with theory as a result, becausethe foundation remains weak.With time one learns to think in a second language but it is never pure. As one that takes the position that medicine is nothing more than treating patients and getting predictable results, I have to strongly disagree with these assumptions.Certainly the focal point of medicine is theclinical encounter, but there is an extensiveinfrastructure that underlies and supportsmost systems and/or methods of medical intervention.To paraphrase John Donne, no doctor is an island.If we within the profession do not develop andprovide the foundation to support future growthand development of the subject, who will?We're all in the same boat. What I have concluded,and I don't think that it's an assumption, is thata strong foundation of understanding of the thoughtprocesses upon which medical theory depend fortheir vitality gives students a much deeper andkeaner understanding of those theories. I do notsee this as an end in itself, but as a method ofachieving clinical expertise so that students becomeable to treat patients and get predictable results.> May be we should start calling this scholars of and Culture. Not Doctors of Medicine. I am glad that at least Bensy's school seems to be strongly clinically, and system based, as this integrates real life thinking. Schools should decide what they believe is important in the process of making clinicians, but to me to be a good clinicians is not the same as a good scholar. Four years of schooling is a short time and priorities are importent. Its great that Dan is puting Chinese as a prerequisit and not making it the purpace in the eductions.Alon, what do you think would happen if a widespreadunderstanding of Chinese medical language, thought,literature and theory were to flourish in the States?KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac. " <xuankong>

wrote:

 

>

> I am a junkie (belong to 34 lists, and own

> or help moderate 9). I have just started a list for

> this.

 

And I thought I was a nut for having just one.

>

>

> I hope the list-owner (Is it Todd?) will not be too

> angry with me. I fully expect anyone who joins that

> list to stay on this list.

 

I am the list owner and its a free country, for the time being. that's

what I like about it. We tried to divert this issue to another list in

the past, but it keeps coming back to this one. Some people don't like

this topic here, but it suits me just fine. Some people don't like a

lot of things, but that suits me, too.

 

>

> Anyway, if you are interested, email me privately, or

> if Todd allows, I will post the group's info publicly.

 

please do and what is the URL to join? who is the moderator? I would

like to follow the posts.

 

[Guest guest]

I am interested, can you send me info.

 

Thanx,

 

-JAson

 

>

> Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac. [xuankong]

> Friday, December 14, 2001 5:46 PM

>

> Re: Re: Chinese language requirements

>

> Hi All,

>

> --- fbernall <fbernall

> wrote:

> > Could a list be started with this objective >

> [Translation] in mind?

>

> I am a junkie (belong to 34 lists, and own

> or help moderate 9). I have just started a list for

> this.

>

> This group has a few purposes:

>

> 1. Discussion of issues regarding translation of

> Chinese medical texts.

> 2. Discussion of issues regarding Chinese medical

> education and language requirements.

> 3. A forum to ask for help or opinions on the

> discussion of specific works.

>

> I hope the list-owner (Is it Todd?) will not be too

> angry with me. I fully expect anyone who joins that

> list to stay on this list.

>

> Anyway, if you are interested, email me privately, or

> if Todd allows, I will post the group's info publicly.

>

> BTW, even though I started it, I am no expert and am

> not moderating it.

>

> Lorraine

>

> =====

> Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac.

>

>

>

> Check out Shopping and Auctions for all of

> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at

> or bid at http://auctions.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

--- 1 < wrote:

> And I thought I was a nut for having just one

.

 

Well, yours is much bigger than mine. :-)

 

> We tried to divert this issue

> to another list in

> the past, but it keeps coming back to this one.

 

It is fine to discuss issues of translating Chinese

medical texts in more than one place. It is an

important discussion (IMHO).

 

> what is the URL to join?

 

go to

TranslateChineseMedicine/

and click on 'Join this Group'

 

> who is the moderator?

 

I am the list-owner. I guess I am the moderator by

default, although my translation skills are not high.

I would call my translation skills low intermediate

level. If there is anyone with better skills who would

like to moderate or co-moderate, they should contact

me.

 

We have already began a little discussion on Zhang

Jiebin's Leijing and Wang Shuhe's Maijing.

 

thanks for your generosity in letting me make

this announcement. I enjoy the discussions on your

list.

 

Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac.

 

=====

Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac.

 

 

 

Check out Shopping and Auctions for all of

your unique holiday gifts! Buy at

or bid at http://auctions.

[Guest guest]

, " Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac. " <xuankong>

wrote:

> Hi

>

> --- 1 <@i...> wrote:

> > And I thought I was a nut for having just one

> .

>

> Well, yours is much bigger than mine. :-)

 

Speaking of which, we reached the 500 member plateau today, which is

over 100 new members in the last 3.5 months alone. We should

congratulate ourselves for having created and sustained the largest

professional forum in our field, one that is highly regarded for the

caliber and civility of its discussions (with occasional lapses, of

course). Bravo!

 

[Guest guest]

Jim and other interested parties,

 

Below is the section on Chinese language from our school

catalog. Our goals are pretty simple. First, we have found that

even a smattering of Chinese language [not only vocabulary but

also grammar] makes it easier for people to learn Oriental

medicine. I believe this opinion is shared by all our faculty,

whether they work in the Chinese or Japanese traditions

[unfortunately, we have no Korean or Vietnamese trained folk

working in the clinic at present].

Our other tangible goal is that graduates will be able to read

modern Chinese medical writings for content in a reasonable

amount of time. Of course, this requires at least an introduction

to classical Chinese as there is quite a bit of classical wordings

in modern medical Chinese. In order to achieve this goal with

less stress, we now have a prerequisite of one semester of

college-level Chinese. As some candidates for next years class

have taken Chinese language with tutors, we are in the process

of setting up an entrance exam on this.

For what it is worth, another reason for having this prerequisite is

that there will probably be candidates who after taking a

semester of Chinese never want to see a Chinese character

again - they will know not to apply to our school.

 

As I have a hard time keeping up with all the messages on this

thread, I apologize if I have not responded to some question. By

the way, in regards to the question about chaihu dosages; I

agree that the usual methods of coping with this [decreasing the

dosage or making one of the common substitutions] usually

works; however when it doesn't, I have some experience that

cooking the formula according to the method described in the

Shang han lun, enables the patients to get the full benefit of

chaihu without the side effects.

 

Dan

 

[The following is from our school's catalog available at

www.siom.com]

Chinese Medical Language

These classes provide three years of practical instruction in

medical Chinese. These courses have three primary goals:

First, to provide the ability to access modern Chinese medical

resources such as journals in order to obtain additional

information for the treatment of patients. Second, to provide

sufficient skill in both recognition and pronunciation of herbs for

communication purposes with the Chinese physicians. Third, to

cultivate an intellectual orientation by studying Chinese medical

texts so as to understand the cultural environment of Chinese

medicine.

FIRST YEAR

The first year courses emphasize the basics of the Chinese

language; pinyin (Chinese romanization system), functional

grammar, and vocabularies. Emphasis is placed on recognizing

herbs in Chinese, fundamental medical terms, and practical

skills such as using Chinese language reference books.

540 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 credits

In this class students study the basics of Chinese language and

essential medical terms, Chinese characters and pronunciation

of herbs that are being studied concurrently in other courses.

The emphasis is on providing an overall understanding of the

characteristics of Modern Chinese.

541 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 credits

In this class students study the basics of Chinese language and

essential medical terms, Chinese characters and pronunciation

of herbs that are being studied concurrently in other courses.

The emphasis is on expanding medical terms and expressions.

542 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 credits

In this class students study a series of main grammatical

features of Modern Chinese. The emphasis is on acquiring a

firm foundation of essential skills necessary for translations.

SECOND YEAR

In the second year, students have reached the point where they

are able to begin translation of short selections from case

histories and other basic texts in Chinese medicine. The focus

in the classes is on development of skill and speed in

translating along with continued improvement in grammar and

vocabulary. Topics selected for translation relate to the subjects

being covered in the Diagnosis and Treatment series in order to

provide a research link to Chinese medical language sources.

640 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 credits

In this class students continue to enhance their understanding

of grammar and command of vocabularies. The format of the

class is translating Chinese formulae on the topics being

concurrently studied in the Diagnosis and Treatment series.

641 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 credits

In this class students continue to enhance their understanding

of grammar and command of vocabularies. The format of the

class is translating Chinese formulae and completing one case

study translation project on the topics being concurrently studied

in the Diagnosis and Treatment series.

642 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 credits

In this class students continue to enhance their understanding

of grammar and command of vocabularies. The format of the

class is translating Chinese formulae and completing one case

study translation project on the topics being concurrently studied

in the Diagnosis and Treatment series.

THIRD YEAR

In the third year students develop competence in

comprehending advanced medical texts in a workshop setting in

which they work on case histories and specific topics

concurrently studied in the Diagnosis and Treatment series.

Additionally, main features of Classical Chinese are introduced.

740 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 credits

Classes focus on a series of advanced grammar and

expressions by translating articles from journals dealing with

topics being studied in the Diagnosis and Treatment series. An

introduction to Classical Chinese is offered.

741 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 credits

Classes focus on the translation of medical texts, both traditional

and contemporary, on topics being studied in the Diagnosis and

Treatment series. Individual selection of case studies is

conducted in workshop.

742 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 credits

Classes focus on the translation of medical texts, both traditional

and contemporary, on topics being studied in the Diagnosis and

Treatment series. Individual selection of case studies is

conducted in workshop.

743 Chinese Medical Philosophy 45 hours 3 credits

In these seminars students read the Chinese medical classics

in English and discuss their relevance to clinical practice today.

Texts read all or in part include the Nan jing, Su wen, Ling shu,

Shang han lun, and other texts.

[Guest guest]

 

>

> Speaking of which, we reached the 500 member plateau today, which

is

> over 100 new members in the last 3.5 months alone. We should

> congratulate ourselves for having created and sustained the largest

> professional forum in our field, one that is highly regarded for

the

> caliber and civility of its discussions (with occasional lapses, of

> course). Bravo!

 

Bravo to you!

 

And to everyone else, too!

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> I'm suggesting that we take this to the root,

> not the extreme. I'm suggesting that we start

> with the most basic things, like learning

> enough of the language and exploring enough

> of the literary expressions and texts so that

> the student develops a grasp of how the

> Chinese have thought about the subjects

> which are the focus of Chinese medical theory.

>

> Without this basic grasp, students have

> to utterly depend upon what someone else

> tells them that the theories mean. They

> have a hard time learning to think and

> reason with theory as a result, because

> >>>>>>I do not agree that if a student learns the concepts in a

language other than Chinese he can not think for him self.

 

Alon,

 

You continue to alter my statements before

rebutting them. If you look at what I said,

it is not that students who learn the concepts

in a language other than Chinese cannot

think for themselves. I said they have

a hard time learning to think and reason

with theory if they are utterly dependent

upon the interpretations of others for their

understanding of theory. I hope and trust

that you see the difference between my

statement and yours.

 

 

Yes he is dependent on translations but the volume of good

translations is growing rapidly.

 

Well, this gets back to the question we talked

about earlier on. In the absence of knowlege

of the original text, the only way you have

of judging the goodness or badness of a new

translation is with respect to other translations

and the opinions of others. All of this continues

the unfortunate theme of second-hand knowledge,

which I believe is less functional than personal

understanding.

>

>

> Alon, what do you think would happen if a widespread

> understanding of Chinese medical language, thought,

> literature and theory were to flourish in the States

> >>>>>I am not saying it is a bad thing but as I see it people have

a limited amount of time and they need to prioritize. I think one is

better served studding the medicine and there is plenty to study in

English than study Chinese.

 

Plenty is the operant word in your statement.

If you compare the plenty available in Chinese

with the plenty available in English, the English

plenty is not quite so plenty.

 

When I was in school I had to make this choice and only studied

minimal Chinese so that I could read formulas and basic herb books.

(This was back in the 80's when we had very few good texts) This was

not very difficult because the number of characters for this was

fairly limited. However, this choice left me with more time to learn

as much medicine as I could. I had several friends that made the

choice of learning Chinese and at this point I do not see the

advantage they have. So I know I did the right choice for me.

 

Understood. I'm not actually challenging you personally

or your education or your beliefs and opinions, for that

matter. Everyone has to make such choices for themselves.

I'm simply arguing for inclusion of Chinese language

and the Chinese medical literature in the overall

purview of students, teachrs, and practitioners

of Chinese medicine in English language zones.

 

I have never really entertained the idea of trying

to enforce this opinion on anybody. But I do obviously

care enough about it to keep insisting that it has

merits which sincere students and educators should

consider.

 

 

> All I am really saying is that I strongly disagree that one needs

to immerse oneself in Chinese culture and langue to learn Chinese

medicine

 

 

I understand. And I am content to note that

we simply disagree about it.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Tim,

 

>To those of you that

> have worked hard over the years to achieve a degree of fluency, I

ask

> this: with full use of hindsight, and with the understanding that

> we're all in this for the long haul - what approach to learning

makes

> sense?

 

The best approach is to begin. Learning language

is a natural thing. Little babies do it. Of course,

we now know that for various physiological reasons

it is far easier for children to learn langauge

than for adults. But language learning remains in

that class of activities that all humans can take

part in.

 

What holds most people back is not the lack of

the right method, but the need to learn a language.

Immersion works because you need to learn how to

speak in order to survive in a language. This

fact becomes apparent to one trying to learn

Chinese in China, for example, about the 10th

time you struggle to get directions to the toilet.

 

In the absence of such urgent need, a strong desire

will do. It is actually possible to learn Chinese

by simply picking up a Chinese-English/English-Chinese

dictionary and beginning to find out what means

what.

 

As you point out, the pedagogy of Chinese language

is fairly well developed, and a trip to any big

bookstore or library will yield results to those

who go looking for learning resources.

 

As to a precise approach to the study of Chinese

medical Chinese, again, we're working on this

at the moment and just don't have things yet

to the point where the concise answer can be

spelled out. I hope that we have some pilot

courses up and running next year, at which

point we can begin to offer meaningful answers.

 

 

 

And should that approach be different for a 1st year student

> of TCM than for a practitioner. Assuming a prior background in TCM

> is a major factor, what target audience should be considered for

> future texts (I know some of you have pen in hand as I write

this...)

 

I've found that working with beginners is somewhat

easier than with those who have extensive background,

as the beginners tend to be more receptive. There is

no way to say what I'm saying about the subject without

challenging the education of those who have not studied

any Chinese language, etc. But that is not really the

point.

 

In fact, regardless of prior training, one has to

cover precisely the same territory in approaching

the study of Chinese medical Chinese, and this

does certainly include a basic familiarity with

the way the language works.

 

I can tell you that in my own case, my focus on

Chinese medical language has given me a lopsided

vocabulary in Chinese. I can pick up and read

an ancient text easier than a newspaper.

 

When I first came to China I gave myself the

target of seeking to develop language skills

at the same rate as a child born that year.

Now, going on ten years later, I am about

as fluent and literate as a ten year old, but

I have a far better vocabulary of medical

terms.

>

> Surely these are some of the challenges that face Dan as he

considers

> the curriculum at his school. Personally I've found it to be one

of

> the most humbling situations I've encountered in my entire life -

I'm

> faced with a sea of knowledge and I don't know where to begin

> swimming.

 

This was one of the problems we set for ourselves

in putting Who Can Ride the Dragon? together. Where

should someone start swimming. But again, I'd say

that one begins is senior in importance to where

and how.

 

> PS - Kudos for the work put into " Who can ride the dragon " . It

packs

> a mighty wallop of context if I do say so myself.

 

Glad to know that it works for you. Thanks.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Jim,

>

>

> I don't want to belabor this point again, but this has always been

> unclear to me. Lincoln said that a man's legs should be long enough

> to reach the ground. How much is " enough of the language "

> and " enough of the literary expressions and texts " ?

 

I don't see the need to try and define

how much is enough. What matters is that

the study begin in earnest. There is no

end. One of the things about Chinese medicine

and its associated literature that is so

intriguing is that there is no end to it.

 

As soon as one opens one's eyes and one's

mind and heart to the views afforded by

looking through the language, the whole

perspectiv begins to change. And from

there on, it just continues to change

as you go deeper and further.

 

That said, I believe it is possible to

quantify what constitutes a good beginning,

i.e. a thorough introduction, and as noted

earlier, we're working that out in detail

as we speak.

 

Believe me, as soon as there's a coherent

answer, we won't keep it to ourselves.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

At 6:20 AM +0000 12/17/01, dfbensky wrote:

>For what it is worth, another reason for having this prerequisite is

>that there will probably be candidates who after taking a

>semester of Chinese never want to see a Chinese character

>again - they will know not to apply to our school.

--

This points out one of the main reasons we do not have Chinese

medical language in the schools of Chinese medicine. I believe most

of the schools are operated to maximize profit, and therefore the

idea of selecting out students in this way is a non starter, and is

the reason Chinese language is unlikely to become a prerequisite for,

or a feature of, their programs. Same applies to a serious study of

the classic literature.

 

Its nice to know there is one school operating on a different

principle. Are there others?

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

Frankly, Jim, no, I don't think so. As Dr. Jiang Jian-fu asked

(rhetorically) in one of the open forums on the doctoral program, why

should we expect any improvement in scholarship if the same people who

are teaching now teach these " advanced " courses? And, if the same

people are not teaching these advanced courses, then where is the

faculty for these programs going to come from?

 

I believe that, when the CCAOM decided not to require the study of

medical Chinese as part of the doctoral curriculum, they made it

impossible for any quantum leap in Chinese medical knowledge and

expertise. What I'm afraid we're going to get is a bunch of

practitioners who are very knowledgable about Western medicine, but

not particularly more knowledgable about Chinese medicine.

 

Recently, a faculty member at one of the better known American schools

e-mailed me lamenting over the fact that most of his fellow faculty

had no idea of what was currently in print in English, let alone

accessing and being knowledgable about the Chinese language

literature.

 

Until the following steps are taken by schools offering training in

Chinese medicine in the U.S., I do not believe there will be any

substansive change in scholarship and literacy within this profession:

 

1. Hire professorial level teachers to teach Masters and Doctoral

level programs, not the equivalent of teaching assistants (TAs).

 

By this I mean: A) Do national and international job searches for

qualified professors who 1) read at least one Far East Asian language,

2) have at least 10 years clinical experience in Chinese medicine, 3)

are fluent English speakers, and 4) have some training in Western

educational philosophy, techniques, and academic standards.

 

Since there is, in my experience, a dearth of such qualified people,

this means that there should be less programs. I believe that it would

be better to turn out fewer but better trained practitioners than

more, lesser trained practitioners (at least when it comes to the

internal administration of Chinese medicinals, as opposed to

acupuncture). I believe Dan Bensky's school is on the right tract in

terms of size vis a vis quality control.

 

2. Pay those professors a professorial salary of not less than $70K

per annum.

 

Right now and, again, in my experience, schools pay somewhere between

$25-30 per hour, with most teachers only working part time at teaching

and few schools paying for class prep time. Far too often, our

teachers teach because they are not busy in their own clinics or they

need a employer-secured green card. Too many of our teachers are

recent graduates with less than 5 years clinical experience or recent

immigrants who A) cannot communicate a doctoral level of technical

material in doctoral level English and B) have yet to really

understand the requirements of doing Chinese medicine with our patient

population. The first requirement of an effective professional teacher

is not necessarily being the wrold's greatest expert in their field

but being an effective communicator to the target audience. This means

that persons who may be crackerjack practitioners or even well known

teachers in China may not be particularly effective teachers in the

U.S.

 

3. Require professors to conduct research, translate, and/or publish

just like professors in bona fide doctoral programs would be expected

in regular academe.

 

4. Require more stringent entrance levels. If we're are truly going

for a doctoral level program, then how come we don't require the GRE?

I believe a B.A. or B.S. should be absolutely mandatory, even of the

current " M.S. " level students. The older I get, the more I believe

that there's just no substitute for a good all-around, general

education. Studying logic may, seemingly, have nothing to do with the

clinical practice of Chinese medicine, but it teaches one to think,

and thinking most certainly does have to do with the clinical practice

of Chinese medicine. Likewise, studying anthropology may seem

irrelevant, but, from my personal experience, studying some medical

anthropology has helped me immensely in getting clear about certain

aspects of Chinese medical psychiatry.

 

In my personal experience, many (not all, nor even necessarily most)

of the students at American Chinese medical schools would make fine

massage therapists but don't have what it takes to be a Chinese

medical doctor. I say this having been to massage school and having

practiced massage professionally and then studying and practicing

Chinese medicine. By saying this, I am in no way denigrating the study

and practice of massage. I am a proud graduate of the Boulder School

of Massage Therapy. What I'm getting at is that there are different

skill sets required. In my experience, the practice of Chinese

medicine (meaning the internal prescription of Chinese medicinals for

the remedial treatment of disease) requires a lot more ratiocination

than does giving a great massage.

 

5. Require more stringent academic standards of matriculated students.

That means: A) make the courses harder, including more reading, and B)

make passing more difficult.

 

I'm sure these opinions are going to cause hackles to rise in some

readers. However, these are my opinions based on my experience. The

last time I voiced such sentiments on the Internet (two years ago),

rather than debating the actual merits of my position, I had one

school threaten to sue me. An interesting academic response, no?

 

Bob

 

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> Bob:

>

> Thanks for your response. I've long admired that you publish

> important texts without much financial return. I suspect your

> situation is probably much like other publishers. Any practitioner

> not owning---at least---half of the Blue Poppy catalog should

> consider becoming a dentist instead.

>

> Do you think that new graduate and post graduate standards will help

> increase sales significantly?

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

> , " pemachophel2001 "

> <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> > Jim,

> >

> > I can't give you actual figures (company policy), but I can give

> you

> > feedback on sales of translations of premodern texts, books on

> > learning to read Chinese, and attendance at seminars.

> >

> > As a whole, our Great Masters Series, sells very, very poorly. If

> we

> > were only a profit-oriented company, we would let them all go out

> of

> > print. By publishing standards, they just don't sell fast enough

> to

> > pay the inventory tax, warehouse rent, insurance, etc., let alone

> > recoup the prepress time and money. We're talking about dribs and

> > drabs. Although we have plans to add the Yi Lin Gai Cuo and the

> Xue

> > Zheng Lun to this series in the next year or so, that's only

> because I

> > am willing to spend my own personal money to see this happen. If

> it

> > were a strictly business decision, we wouldn't do it. For me, it's

> a

> > personal indulgence.

> >

> > As for " Teaching Yourself to Read Modern Medical Chinese, " that

> book

> > also sells very, very poorly. We're still on our first printing.

> > Again, dribs and drabs. Most other companies would let it go out

> of

> > print.

> >

> > And finally, our seminar of the same title has been so poorly

> attended

> > that we have no plans for teaching it again. We can't fly to

> Portland,

> > OR from DIA, rent a conference room, do print and direct mail

> > advertising, pay the teacher, pay the teacher's room and board,

> and

> > make any profit if only seven or eight people sign up.

> >

> > I'd also like to say that creating dual language books is a no-

> start

> > proposition for Blue Poppy. Yes, there is the software to in-put

> the

> > characters, but we're talking about in-putting a whole book.

> Secondly,

> > we'd have to have a Chinese language proofreader. Third, it would

> > double the printing costs (ink, paper, binding). In our

> experience,

> > there doesn't begin to be enough desire (read " sales " ) to make

> this a

> > viable option.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> > , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> > > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...>

> wrote:

> > > > I think that an important part of the

> > > > strategy consists of generating widespread

> > > > enthusiasm for studying the subject in

> > > > its larger context, as Bob Felt so

> > > > precisely put it.

> > >

> > >

> > > " Widespread enthusiasm " may be an unrealistic goal; but

> certainly

> > > publishing bilingual translations should be adopted as the

> standard

> > > and the beginning of this process. The more people are exposed

> to

> > > Chinese, the closer you come to elevating the professional

> > > standards. And, if publishers are not entusiastic, who can be?

> > >

> > > One essential marker of how much interest there is now is in the

> > > numbers for sales of (1) classical translations, and (2) books

> about

> > > how to learn medical Chinese. Without these numbers we cannot

> fairly

> > > evaluate the trend. How fast are these books selling? It would

> be an

> > > indication as to how open practitioners are to the idea and how

> well

> > > a class in medical Chinese langauge may be received.

> > >

> > > And we should hear from practitioners who have done seminars on

> > > teaching Chinese medical language---how well attended and

> successful

> > > are they?

> > >

> > >

> > > Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

At 1:09 PM -0600 12/16/01, Alon Marcus wrote:

>Alon, what do you think would happen if a widespread

>understanding of Chinese medical language, thought,

>literature and theory were to flourish in the States

> >>>>>I am not saying it is a bad thing but as I see it people have

>a limited amount of time and they need to prioritize.

--

 

Alon, I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Your position seems

to be that you would have done more if you had the time. But the way

you spent your time was dictated by the priorities set by the

institution you attended. If they had made a required track of

Chinese language development, you would have to have made the time

for it.

 

Surely students don't get to decide the content of their education,

and if content is required it's up to them to make it a priority. The

schools don't require it, and therefore students take the path of

least resistance, which is fair enough; after all they are not in a

position to know what is important, and have to assume that the

colleges have decided that. The colleges on the other hand are making

their priorities based, in part, not on what is best educationally,

but rather what will maximize their profit. I emphasize _in part_,

because I'm sure they have educational values in mind as well.

However, in a situation where they compete for students, and students

will take the path of least resistance, their choice not to include

language is in their self interest as profit driven enterprises.

 

Bensky's school is commendable for operating on a different

principle, and their faculty will have the pleasure of teaching a

group of students who are probably of a higher caliber than is

general.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

 

> In my personal experience, many (not all, nor even necessarily most)

> of the students at American Chinese medical schools would make fine

> massage therapists but don't have what it takes to be a Chinese

> medical doctor.

 

Actually, I think that most American Chinese Med students lack

bodywork skills. The emphasis is on becoming a " doctor " . Tui Na, Anma,

Shiatsu are rarely an important modality in student clinic. In fact,

while in school most of the teachers (who were all Chinese), would

seldom use Tui Na. The students were not interested, acupuncture

seemed more important. As a result, today, most practitioners lack

palpation skills. I often suggested to our school's director to

require a clinic Tui Na internship before the first needle was

inserted. He ignored it.

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

, " pemachophel2001 " :

> I'm sure these opinions are going to cause hackles to rise in some

readers. However, these are my opinions based on my experience. The

last time I voiced such sentiments on the Internet (two years ago),

rather than debating the actual merits of my position, I had one

school threaten to sue me. An interesting academic response, no?

 

 

Bob:

 

I think your ideas are excellent---certainly the ideal. But one the

profession can't support financially yet because acupuncturists

don't make much on average when out and practicing. New

practitioners would never be able to pay off the tuition loans to

support these sorts of schools. Unless we become on par with the

other medical professions in terms of insurance and mainstreaming.

 

As I talk to more friends who teach here and around the country, it

gets scarey. In the seventies, when I started to study, people were

in it because they were excited and interested in the ideas. The

motive was primarily emotional and intellectual, since the financial

gain was so small at the time. Recently, one friend surveyed his new

beginning class and learned that the students were not even familiar

with any of the basics ideas---even indriectly. Their expectation

was to learn everything they need in school to later be able to work

in lab coats. When teaching seminars, I look for that excitement and

fire in a students eyes who enjoys these ideas, and feel fortunate

when there are one or two.

 

The requirement should be not only for Chinese langauge but also the

history of this medicine and the cultural aspects that shaped it.

Regular colleges require humanities and laguage to create a whole

person, and not merely a job holder. But I suspect the real bottle

neck will be the financial end---acupuncturists aren't mainstream,

so they can't afford the tuition to support an expanded curriculum.

 

Maybe we can slowly work our way up to your vision of it.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " dfbensky " <dbensky@e...> wrote:

> For what it is worth, another reason for having this prerequisite

is

> that there will probably be candidates who after taking a

> semester of Chinese never want to see a Chinese character

> again - they will know not to apply to our school.

 

 

 

Dan:

 

Undoubtedly, that's true. But if the population of applicants is

large enough, don't you think that you'll get enough students to

fill your seats?

 

Regular colleges require language and humanities specficially to

round out and create a " whole " person who can appreciate and

understand the world around him---and not just be a job mill. It

took me much longer to get out of the Univ of Illinois because I

resisted learning a language. Later, after a number of years of

working for a living, I returned to complete my degree in English

(in the 70s you could be either a cab driver or bartender with an

English degree); but because I never completed all six semesters of

the language requirement, I had to make up two classes for every

language class I missed to be allowed to graduate.

 

For those people without sufficient language skills or ability, a

second, slightly longer tract could be established. Then, Chinese

language might be thought of as a fast or higher tract rather than

extra labor, as may be the current expectation of new applicants.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

I agree that the current schools with the current students cannot

finance the type of faculty and training we'd like to see. However,

what we've got now is a self-perpetuating loop. The students don't

learn enough of the right stuff in school. Therefore, they are not

well enough equipped to succeed financially in private practice.

Therefore, the schools cannot institute the right kinds of academic

programs. This is why my wife and Marilyn Allen's seminar, " How to

Make $100, 000 per Year Doing Acupuncture, " is doing so well all

around the country. You can make a more than decent living practicing

this medicine if you know how and are willing to do it.

 

That being said, I would like to see more established, nonprofit

colleges and universities take over the entry-level training for our

profession. Many of the nursing schools are under-utilizing their

infrastructure, and professors to teach some of the kinds of courses

you mention could be pulled from already established departments

(biology, medicine, history, language, religion, etc). In addition,

many established colleges and universities already have affiliated

teaching hospitals. Bill Prensky's program at Mercy College, one of

the SUNY campuses, is a potential model. Having visted and taught

there, both in classroms and in their hospital clinic, I am impressed

by the seemingly higher level of students.

 

I just don't see any economic incentive for the current schools and

colleges to make a quantum leap in terms of their modus operandi. In

business there is a saying, " If you keep doing what you're doing,

you'll keep getting what you're getting. " I think we need a new model

of Chinese medical education, one that has learnt from the mistakes of

past generations (such as the momma-poppa eclectic medicine schools

which all disapeared by the 1930s). Blend Mercy College's entrance and

retention requirements and general faculty standards and academic

principles with some version of Dan Bensky's curriculum and I think

we'd really have something. Bottom line, we need to get the

issue of profit out of the equation.

 

If our graduates were able to earn 100K within three years after

graduation and, therefore, they were able to get grants and loans

(like other medical students with a bright financial future ahead of

them), then I think we could pay the right kind of faculty the right

kind of salaries. Unfortunately, most practitioners do not make that

100K per annum and, therefore, by some people's estimates, as many as

50% of graduates are not in full-time practice five years after

graduation. Maybe this is the acupuncture equivalent of an " urban

myth, " but I also haven't seen anyone's statistics that refute this

shibboleth.

 

Bob

 

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> , " pemachophel2001 " :

> > I'm sure these opinions are going to cause hackles to rise in some

> readers. However, these are my opinions based on my experience. The

> last time I voiced such sentiments on the Internet (two years ago),

> rather than debating the actual merits of my position, I had one

> school threaten to sue me. An interesting academic response, no?

>

>

> Bob:

>

> I think your ideas are excellent---certainly the ideal. But one the

> profession can't support financially yet because acupuncturists

> don't make much on average when out and practicing. New

> practitioners would never be able to pay off the tuition loans to

> support these sorts of schools. Unless we become on par with the

> other medical professions in terms of insurance and mainstreaming.

>

> As I talk to more friends who teach here and around the country, it

> gets scarey. In the seventies, when I started to study, people were

> in it because they were excited and interested in the ideas. The

> motive was primarily emotional and intellectual, since the financial

> gain was so small at the time. Recently, one friend surveyed his new

> beginning class and learned that the students were not even familiar

> with any of the basics ideas---even indriectly. Their expectation

> was to learn everything they need in school to later be able to work

> in lab coats. When teaching seminars, I look for that excitement and

> fire in a students eyes who enjoys these ideas, and feel fortunate

> when there are one or two.

>

> The requirement should be not only for Chinese langauge but also the

> history of this medicine and the cultural aspects that shaped it.

> Regular colleges require humanities and laguage to create a whole

> person, and not merely a job holder. But I suspect the real bottle

> neck will be the financial end---acupuncturists aren't mainstream,

> so they can't afford the tuition to support an expanded curriculum.

>

> Maybe we can slowly work our way up to your vision of it.

>

> Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

First, we have found that even a smattering of Chinese language [not only vocabulary but also grammar] makes it easier for people to learn Oriental medicine.

>>>>>How does this manifest or what are the differences you see

Thanks

Alon

 

-

dfbensky

Sunday, December 16, 2001 10:20 PM

Re: Chinese language requirements

Jim and other interested parties,Below is the section on Chinese language from our school catalog. Our goals are pretty simple. First, we have found that even a smattering of Chinese language [not only vocabulary but also grammar] makes it easier for people to learn Oriental medicine. I believe this opinion is shared by all our faculty, whether they work in the Chinese or Japanese traditions [unfortunately, we have no Korean or Vietnamese trained folk working in the clinic at present].Our other tangible goal is that graduates will be able to read modern Chinese medical writings for content in a reasonable amount of time. Of course, this requires at least an introduction to classical Chinese as there is quite a bit of classical wordings in modern medical Chinese. In order to achieve this goal with less stress, we now have a prerequisite of one semester of college-level Chinese. As some candidates for next years class have taken Chinese language with tutors, we are in the process of setting up an entrance exam on this.For what it is worth, another reason for having this prerequisite is that there will probably be candidates who after taking a semester of Chinese never want to see a Chinese character again - they will know not to apply to our school.As I have a hard time keeping up with all the messages on this thread, I apologize if I have not responded to some question. By the way, in regards to the question about chaihu dosages; I agree that the usual methods of coping with this [decreasing the dosage or making one of the common substitutions] usually works; however when it doesn't, I have some experience that cooking the formula according to the method described in the Shang han lun, enables the patients to get the full benefit of chaihu without the side effects.Dan[The following is from our school's catalog available at www.siom.com]Chinese Medical LanguageThese classes provide three years of practical instruction in medical Chinese. These courses have three primary goals: First, to provide the ability to access modern Chinese medical resources such as journals in order to obtain additional information for the treatment of patients. Second, to provide sufficient skill in both recognition and pronunciation of herbs for communication purposes with the Chinese physicians. Third, to cultivate an intellectual orientation by studying Chinese medical texts so as to understand the cultural environment of Chinese medicine.FIRST YEARThe first year courses emphasize the basics of the Chinese language; pinyin (Chinese romanization system), functional grammar, and vocabularies. Emphasis is placed on recognizing herbs in Chinese, fundamental medical terms, and practical skills such as using Chinese language reference books.540 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 creditsIn this class students study the basics of Chinese language and essential medical terms, Chinese characters and pronunciation of herbs that are being studied concurrently in other courses. The emphasis is on providing an overall understanding of the characteristics of Modern Chinese.541 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 creditsIn this class students study the basics of Chinese language and essential medical terms, Chinese characters and pronunciation of herbs that are being studied concurrently in other courses. The emphasis is on expanding medical terms and expressions.542 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 creditsIn this class students study a series of main grammatical features of Modern Chinese. The emphasis is on acquiring a firm foundation of essential skills necessary for translations.SECOND YEARIn the second year, students have reached the point where they are able to begin translation of short selections from case histories and other basic texts in Chinese medicine. The focus in the classes is on development of skill and speed in translating along with continued improvement in grammar and vocabulary. Topics selected for translation relate to the subjects being covered in the Diagnosis and Treatment series in order to provide a research link to Chinese medical language sources.640 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 creditsIn this class students continue to enhance their understanding of grammar and command of vocabularies. The format of the class is translating Chinese formulae on the topics being concurrently studied in the Diagnosis and Treatment series.641 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 creditsIn this class students continue to enhance their understanding of grammar and command of vocabularies. The format of the class is translating Chinese formulae and completing one case study translation project on the topics being concurrently studied in the Diagnosis and Treatment series.642 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 creditsIn this class students continue to enhance their understanding of grammar and command of vocabularies. The format of the class is translating Chinese formulae and completing one case study translation project on the topics being concurrently studied in the Diagnosis and Treatment series.THIRD YEARIn the third year students develop competence in comprehending advanced medical texts in a workshop setting in which they work on case histories and specific topics concurrently studied in the Diagnosis and Treatment series. Additionally, main features of Classical Chinese are introduced.740 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 creditsClasses focus on a series of advanced grammar and expressions by translating articles from journals dealing with topics being studied in the Diagnosis and Treatment series. An introduction to Classical Chinese is offered.741 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 creditsClasses focus on the translation of medical texts, both traditional and contemporary, on topics being studied in the Diagnosis and Treatment series. Individual selection of case studies is conducted in workshop.742 Chinese Medical Language 30 hours 2 creditsClasses focus on the translation of medical texts, both traditional and contemporary, on topics being studied in the Diagnosis and Treatment series. Individual selection of case studies is conducted in workshop.743 Chinese Medical Philosophy 45 hours 3 creditsIn these seminars students read the Chinese medical classics in English and discuss their relevance to clinical practice today. Texts read all or in part include the Nan jing, Su wen, Ling shu, Shang han lun, and other texts.Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Understood. I'm not actually challenging you personallyor your education or your beliefs and opinions, for thatmatter. Everyone has to make such choices for themselves.I'm simply arguing for inclusion of Chinese languageand the Chinese medical literature in the overallpurview of students, teachers, and practitionersof Chinese medicine in English language zones.>>>Obviously the more one knows the better he is. And I applaud those of you who are trying to master the language so that you can judge for yourselves. I am just wandering in the US what is ones best use of time

Alon

 

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dragon90405

Monday, December 17, 2001 2:06 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

, "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> I'm suggesting that we take this to the root,> not the extreme. I'm suggesting that we start> with the most basic things, like learning> enough of the language and exploring enough> of the literary expressions and texts so that> the student develops a grasp of how the> Chinese have thought about the subjects> which are the focus of Chinese medical theory.> > Without this basic grasp, students have> to utterly depend upon what someone else> tells them that the theories mean. They> have a hard time learning to think and> reason with theory as a result, because> >>>>>>I do not agree that if a student learns the concepts in a language other than Chinese he can not think for him self.Alon,You continue to alter my statements beforerebutting them. If you look at what I said,it is not that students who learn the conceptsin a language other than Chinese cannotthink for themselves. I said they havea hard time learning to think and reasonwith theory if they are utterly dependentupon the interpretations of others for theirunderstanding of theory. I hope and trustthat you see the difference between mystatement and yours.Yes he is dependent on translations but the volume of good translations is growing rapidly.Well, this gets back to the question we talkedabout earlier on. In the absence of knowlegeof the original text, the only way you have of judging the goodness or badness of a newtranslation is with respect to other translationsand the opinions of others. All of this continuesthe unfortunate theme of second-hand knowledge,which I believe is less functional than personalunderstanding.> > > Alon, what do you think would happen if a widespread> understanding of Chinese medical language, thought,> literature and theory were to flourish in the States> >>>>>I am not saying it is a bad thing but as I see it people have a limited amount of time and they need to prioritize. I think one is better served studding the medicine and there is plenty to study in English than study Chinese.Plenty is the operant word in your statement.If you compare the plenty available in Chinesewith the plenty available in English, the Englishplenty is not quite so plenty.When I was in school I had to make this choice and only studied minimal Chinese so that I could read formulas and basic herb books.(This was back in the 80's when we had very few good texts) This was not very difficult because the number of characters for this was fairly limited. However, this choice left me with more time to learn as much medicine as I could. I had several friends that made the choice of learning Chinese and at this point I do not see the advantage they have. So I know I did the right choice for me.Understood. I'm not actually challenging you personallyor your education or your beliefs and opinions, for thatmatter. Everyone has to make such choices for themselves.I'm simply arguing for inclusion of Chinese languageand the Chinese medical literature in the overallpurview of students, teachrs, and practitionersof Chinese medicine in English language zones.I have never really entertained the idea of tryingto enforce this opinion on anybody. But I do obviouslycare enough about it to keep insisting that it hasmerits which sincere students and educators shouldconsider.> All I am really saying is that I strongly disagree that one needs to immerse oneself in Chinese culture and langue to learn Chinese medicineI understand. And I am content to note thatwe simply disagree about it.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.