Chinese language requirements

[Guest guest]

Ken:

 

As described, I think this is a wonderful idea for post graduate

level studies for a PhD in this field. You may be delightfully

surprised to know that I taught myself to read a little bit of

Chinese (starting back in the 80s) so I can get through books of

herbal and acupuncture forumulas. The most intersting and practical

herbal formulas I use in my office are from my 300 or so books in

Chinese. Today, any herbalist who doen't read some Chinese is at a

real disadvantage considering the scope and variety of formulas

available in the literature, compared to what's in translation.

 

But even before lobbying the profession to add any course to the

school curriculums, it would help it to be a foregone conclusion if

more book and journal publishers were to include the Chinese (at

least important sections) in their new offerings. This could be done

relatively quickly now that the software is easily available; and it

would assist any professional discussions. Practitioners and

students would have Chinese in their home even if they had no

interest in learning to read it. If COMP achieved and promoted this

standard first, then schools would have less resistance to follow

suit. Students and practitioners would already be use to and

familiar with seeing Chinese in print.

 

I suspect forums like Todd had the foresight to create in the CHA

are going to be of even more importance in the future to help the

profession to evolve. Discussions based on books with the Chinese

already available in the texts would help facilitate them. Also, if

could display Chinese characters, that would make discussions

easier to follow by people who don't read any Chinese, and expose

them to the language at the same time.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

>

> >

> > ...matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or

> > reverence.

>

> This is an extremely important point.

> And of far greater concern than people

> taking a text such as SHL on " faith

> or reverence " is the fact that so many

> people are educated to take the work

> of a handful of modern writers as the

> gospel truth of the subject, irrespective

> of faith, reverence, validity, or any

> actual pertinence to the knowledge base

> that has long constituted the subject.

>

> Until and unless we as a profession

> take responsibility for establishing

> proper scholarship that is rooted in

> knowledge of the Chinese language and

> access to the literary foundations that

> have been constructed over centuries,

> we will all be in the condition that

> you decry. In China, questions such

> as those being discussed here, might

> be referred to personnel from the SHL

> department at a college or university

> of TCM.

>

> This doesn't mean that " they've

> got all the answers in China. " It means

> that modern Chinese scholars and doctors,

> in their efforts to bring traditional

> theories and methods to bear on the

> health care challenges of contemporary

> people, realized that they needed to

> familiarize themselves with the accumulated

> knowledge of the subject. They simply have

> a great advantage over non-Chinese in having

> a head start on linguistic and literary

> access. And of course there is the benefit

> of living in the cultural matrix that has

> evolved from the one in which traditional

> medicine first emerged.

>

> But they have no monopoly on the subject

> and are, to the contrary, working hard to

> make it available to foreigners as well as

> to their country folk. Foreigners...

> that's us...have to work just as hard, if

> not harder to bring this transmission off

> successfully. I believe strongly that this

> work must begin with acquiring a basic

> and functional familiarity with the language.

>

> For those who want to read more about this,

> the editorial in the forthcoming issue of

> CAOM focuses on the language requirement.

> I am campaigning on this point. It's a

> grass roots campaign in which I'd like to

> enlist as many people as possible. I would

> like to see students demanding to study

> Chinese medical language, and I'd like to

> see teachers demanding it of themselves

> and each other as well as of their students.

>

> I'd like to see the schools individually

> and as a group taking effective measures

> to stimulate, foster, and support the

> scholarship that is required to create

> access to the Chinese medical literature,

> modern and ancient, that remains such an

> important feature of Chinese medicine.

>

> It's a campagin that focuses on caring

> about the quality of our knowledge and

> of our clinical skills, recognizing that

> the latter cannot be reasonably expected

> to continue to emerge without a healthy

> condition of the former.

>

> The usual response I get when I carry on

> like this is being told, in more or less

> these words to " get real. " But this is

> about as real as I can get.

>

> Matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or

> reverence and until and unless we change

> the current conditions under which we

> educate and certify practitioners of the

> subject, that's pretty much what we are

> doing.

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

I more than endorse your suggestions.

I'm working on some of them, and would

be glad to get our heads together and figure

out approaches to the others.

 

That's precisely what I mean by a grass

roots campaign. Once we get the magnitude

of the actual problem in clear view it

will be possible and necessary to plan for

and marshall the resources necessary to

accomplish such things.

 

The presentation of bilingual books, for

example, a simple enough sounding target,

is actually somewhat complex, when you

think the thought through to its likely

ramifications. I think the tactics are,

at this point, beyond the scope of this

list. But the strategy is certainly an

important topic for discussion.

 

I think that an important part of the

strategy consists of generating widespread

enthusiasm for studying the subject in

its larger context, as Bob Felt so

precisely put it.

 

That, among other reasons, is why I

am so persistent in talking about it

in this forum. I want to encourage people

to get involved in these pursuits, and I

particularly want to hear from the people

who think that what I'm saying is unreal,

stupid, unpopular, impractical, or simply

boring. I want to discover what's going

on in people's minds on this subject,

also including the silent ones.

 

Ken

 

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> Ken:

>

> As described, I think this is a wonderful idea for post graduate

> level studies for a PhD in this field. You may be delightfully

> surprised to know that I taught myself to read a little bit of

> Chinese (starting back in the 80s) so I can get through books of

> herbal and acupuncture forumulas. The most intersting and practical

> herbal formulas I use in my office are from my 300 or so books in

> Chinese. Today, any herbalist who doen't read some Chinese is at a

> real disadvantage considering the scope and variety of formulas

> available in the literature, compared to what's in translation.

>

> But even before lobbying the profession to add any course to the

> school curriculums, it would help it to be a foregone conclusion if

> more book and journal publishers were to include the Chinese (at

> least important sections) in their new offerings. This could be

done

> relatively quickly now that the software is easily available; and

it

> would assist any professional discussions. Practitioners and

> students would have Chinese in their home even if they had no

> interest in learning to read it. If COMP achieved and promoted this

> standard first, then schools would have less resistance to follow

> suit. Students and practitioners would already be use to and

> familiar with seeing Chinese in print.

>

> I suspect forums like Todd had the foresight to create in the CHA

> are going to be of even more importance in the future to help the

> profession to evolve. Discussions based on books with the Chinese

> already available in the texts would help facilitate them. Also, if

> could display Chinese characters, that would make discussions

> easier to follow by people who don't read any Chinese, and expose

> them to the language at the same time.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

> , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > ...matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or

> > > reverence.

> >

> > This is an extremely important point.

> > And of far greater concern than people

> > taking a text such as SHL on " faith

> > or reverence " is the fact that so many

> > people are educated to take the work

> > of a handful of modern writers as the

> > gospel truth of the subject, irrespective

> > of faith, reverence, validity, or any

> > actual pertinence to the knowledge base

> > that has long constituted the subject.

> >

> > Until and unless we as a profession

> > take responsibility for establishing

> > proper scholarship that is rooted in

> > knowledge of the Chinese language and

> > access to the literary foundations that

> > have been constructed over centuries,

> > we will all be in the condition that

> > you decry. In China, questions such

> > as those being discussed here, might

> > be referred to personnel from the SHL

> > department at a college or university

> > of TCM.

> >

> > This doesn't mean that " they've

> > got all the answers in China. " It means

> > that modern Chinese scholars and doctors,

> > in their efforts to bring traditional

> > theories and methods to bear on the

> > health care challenges of contemporary

> > people, realized that they needed to

> > familiarize themselves with the accumulated

> > knowledge of the subject. They simply have

> > a great advantage over non-Chinese in having

> > a head start on linguistic and literary

> > access. And of course there is the benefit

> > of living in the cultural matrix that has

> > evolved from the one in which traditional

> > medicine first emerged.

> >

> > But they have no monopoly on the subject

> > and are, to the contrary, working hard to

> > make it available to foreigners as well as

> > to their country folk. Foreigners...

> > that's us...have to work just as hard, if

> > not harder to bring this transmission off

> > successfully. I believe strongly that this

> > work must begin with acquiring a basic

> > and functional familiarity with the language.

> >

> > For those who want to read more about this,

> > the editorial in the forthcoming issue of

> > CAOM focuses on the language requirement.

> > I am campaigning on this point. It's a

> > grass roots campaign in which I'd like to

> > enlist as many people as possible. I would

> > like to see students demanding to study

> > Chinese medical language, and I'd like to

> > see teachers demanding it of themselves

> > and each other as well as of their students.

> >

> > I'd like to see the schools individually

> > and as a group taking effective measures

> > to stimulate, foster, and support the

> > scholarship that is required to create

> > access to the Chinese medical literature,

> > modern and ancient, that remains such an

> > important feature of Chinese medicine.

> >

> > It's a campagin that focuses on caring

> > about the quality of our knowledge and

> > of our clinical skills, recognizing that

> > the latter cannot be reasonably expected

> > to continue to emerge without a healthy

> > condition of the former.

> >

> > The usual response I get when I carry on

> > like this is being told, in more or less

> > these words to " get real. " But this is

> > about as real as I can get.

> >

> > Matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or

> > reverence and until and unless we change

> > the current conditions under which we

> > educate and certify practitioners of the

> > subject, that's pretty much what we are

> > doing.

> >

> > Ken

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

 

> The presentation of bilingual books, for

> example, a simple enough sounding target,

> is actually somewhat complex, when you

> think the thought through to its likely

> ramifications. I think the tactics are,

> at this point, beyond the scope of this

> list. But the strategy is certainly an

> important topic for discussion.

 

I have the twelve set of TCM library which has the Chinese on one page

and the English on the next. I am willing to devoting the time,

energy to learn to read Chinese. I think the translation issue is also

relevant to the Tai Chi literature and am not aware of a standard

terminology in the Chinese martial arts.

 

I have Bob's book on " Teach Yourself to Read Modern Medical Chinese " ;

got a dictionary and a list from China periodicals on numerous TCM

journals. I will be ordering The Practical Dictionary of Chinese

Medicine in a couple of days (a x-mass present to myself, I`ve been a

good boy lately).

 

These are my concerns/questions: how do I know my translations are

correct? Who would be willing to tutor/mentor those who are willing to

invest their time in such an effort, and at what cost ($$)?

Could a list be started with this objective in mind? What does a

" Functional Translation " mean and is there room for personal

interpretation in this method?

 

I know the topic is beyond the nature of this list and off-list

answers, suggestions are welcome.

Thanks,

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> I think that an important part of the

> strategy consists of generating widespread

> enthusiasm for studying the subject in

> its larger context, as Bob Felt so

> precisely put it.

 

 

" Widespread enthusiasm " may be an unrealistic goal; but certainly

publishing bilingual translations should be adopted as the standard

and the beginning of this process. The more people are exposed to

Chinese, the closer you come to elevating the professional

standards. And, if publishers are not entusiastic, who can be?

 

One essential marker of how much interest there is now is in the

numbers for sales of (1) classical translations, and (2) books about

how to learn medical Chinese. Without these numbers we cannot fairly

evaluate the trend. How fast are these books selling? It would be an

indication as to how open practitioners are to the idea and how well

a class in medical Chinese langauge may be received.

 

And we should hear from practitioners who have done seminars on

teaching Chinese medical language---how well attended and successful

are they?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

I can't give you actual figures (company policy), but I can give you

feedback on sales of translations of premodern texts, books on

learning to read Chinese, and attendance at seminars.

 

As a whole, our Great Masters Series, sells very, very poorly. If we

were only a profit-oriented company, we would let them all go out of

print. By publishing standards, they just don't sell fast enough to

pay the inventory tax, warehouse rent, insurance, etc., let alone

recoup the prepress time and money. We're talking about dribs and

drabs. Although we have plans to add the Yi Lin Gai Cuo and the Xue

Zheng Lun to this series in the next year or so, that's only because I

am willing to spend my own personal money to see this happen. If it

were a strictly business decision, we wouldn't do it. For me, it's a

personal indulgence.

 

As for " Teaching Yourself to Read Modern Medical Chinese, " that book

also sells very, very poorly. We're still on our first printing.

Again, dribs and drabs. Most other companies would let it go out of

print.

 

And finally, our seminar of the same title has been so poorly attended

that we have no plans for teaching it again. We can't fly to Portland,

OR from DIA, rent a conference room, do print and direct mail

advertising, pay the teacher, pay the teacher's room and board, and

make any profit if only seven or eight people sign up.

 

I'd also like to say that creating dual language books is a no-start

proposition for Blue Poppy. Yes, there is the software to in-put the

characters, but we're talking about in-putting a whole book. Secondly,

we'd have to have a Chinese language proofreader. Third, it would

double the printing costs (ink, paper, binding). In our experience,

there doesn't begin to be enough desire (read " sales " ) to make this a

viable option.

 

Bob

 

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> > I think that an important part of the

> > strategy consists of generating widespread

> > enthusiasm for studying the subject in

> > its larger context, as Bob Felt so

> > precisely put it.

>

>

> " Widespread enthusiasm " may be an unrealistic goal; but certainly

> publishing bilingual translations should be adopted as the standard

> and the beginning of this process. The more people are exposed to

> Chinese, the closer you come to elevating the professional

> standards. And, if publishers are not entusiastic, who can be?

>

> One essential marker of how much interest there is now is in the

> numbers for sales of (1) classical translations, and (2) books about

> how to learn medical Chinese. Without these numbers we cannot fairly

> evaluate the trend. How fast are these books selling? It would be an

> indication as to how open practitioners are to the idea and how well

> a class in medical Chinese langauge may be received.

>

> And we should hear from practitioners who have done seminars on

> teaching Chinese medical language---how well attended and successful

> are they?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

My experience as a professor and department chair at Pacific College of

O.M. is that there is a small but growing contingency of students who

understand the need and desire to learn medical Chinese, and are

studying with one or two Chinese instructors and/or students. Most

other students recognize the importance of medical Chinese, but feel

overwhelmed with their course loads to do so until they graduate. . .

and are struggling to find the resources.

 

While I proselytize to students to learn medical Chinese, saying even a

little is a lot, I think the TCM colleges will have to back it up and

require the subject for it to take off. But student demand is growing.

The change in the last few years is impressive. Fewer students think

that one or two textbooks are gospel for the practice of CM.

 

While I understand and respect Bob Flaw's feelings about bilingual texts

(publishers should not have to lose money on their books), bilingual

texts such as Mitchell/Feng/Wiseman's SHL are great teaching tools for

medical Chinese.

 

 

On Friday, December 14, 2001, at 11:02 AM, jramholz wrote:

 

> , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> > I think that an important part of the

> > strategy consists of generating widespread

> > enthusiasm for studying the subject in

> > its larger context, as Bob Felt so

> > precisely put it.

>

>

> " Widespread enthusiasm " may be an unrealistic goal; but certainly

> publishing bilingual translations should be adopted as the standard

> and the beginning of this process. The more people are exposed to

> Chinese, the closer you come to elevating the professional

> standards. And, if publishers are not entusiastic, who can be?

>

> One essential marker of how much interest there is now is in the

> numbers for sales of (1) classical translations, and (2) books about

> how to learn medical Chinese. Without these numbers we cannot fairly

> evaluate the trend. How fast are these books selling? It would be an

> indication as to how open practitioners are to the idea and how well

> a class in medical Chinese langauge may be received.

>

> And we should hear from practitioners who have done seminars on

> teaching Chinese medical language---how well attended and successful

> are they?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

[Guest guest]

I basically agree with both Z'ev and Bob. Chinese language [or

some East Asian language] should be an integral part of any

school that attempts to make their students proficient in Oriental

medicine. This is not to say that no one who does not read one

of these languages is not proficient, as that is demonstrably

false. No reason to go into that here, except to note that learning

the language makes learning the medicine much easier and

helps give students the right trajectory.

 

In any case, at our school we have found this process a bit more

difficult that we first thought - notably relating to the issues of

time and energy that Z'ev noted. For that reason, starting next

year, we are requiring at least one term of college level Chinese

for entry into our program.

 

Dan

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob,

 

I am sorry that the Master Series and Teaching Yourself to Read Modern

Medical Chinese doesn't sell well. I must say, these are the best

books you publish!

 

Maybe 8 years ago, you and Honora came to Samra Universtiy in Los

Angeles (where I used to work). You set up a table to sell your books

and gave a little lunch-time lecture on 2 subjects:

1. Having a specialty in the practice of Chinese medicine, and

2. Learning to read medical Chinese.

 

Both of these issues I took to heart. It took a while for me to begin

studying Chinese, but now (with multiple dictionaries and lots of

time) I can translate things for myself.

 

Besides making a start and going to school, this has been the single

most important aspect of my education. It has opened up worlds for me.

I often feel like an archeologist who has just uncovered some

invaluable treasure, unseen by other English-only speakers. I find it

quite exciting when I get that flash of understanding.

 

So, don't be discouraged. Little by little, there will be more who are

inspired to do the work and see the medicine directly without the

screen of the English (or other foreign) language.

 

Lorraine

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> As a whole, our Great Masters Series, sells very, very poorly...

> As for " Teaching Yourself to Read Modern Medical Chinese, " that book

> also sells very, very poorly.

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

>

> I have the twelve set of TCM library which has the Chinese on one

page

> and the English on the next. I am willing to devoting the time,

> energy to learn to read Chinese. I think the translation issue is

also

> relevant to the Tai Chi literature and am not aware of a standard

> terminology in the Chinese martial arts.

 

We may again be getting far afield from

the CHA list topic, but just a brief

comment. In my experience, when one is

being orally taught in tai4 ji2, the

martial art I study, the " meanings "

of the words are both verbally and

tactilely taught. In terms of their

importance as tools of instruction

the words themselves are relatively

less critical in the process of transferring

information from teacher to student.

 

And of course, talking about martial

arts gets pretty pointless pretty fast.

So again, the value of the words as

well as their importance as ways of

communicating what is effective and

what is not is relatively limited.

Therefore there is no great need to

attempt a standardization of terms,

since the benefit would not probably

be outweighed by the costs, in terms

of time and effort.

 

However I think that the study of the

words yields great benefits, and it

is the rare boxer who can settle

matters with words alone.

 

>

> These are my concerns/questions: how do I know my translations are

> correct? Who would be willing to tutor/mentor those who are willing

to

> invest their time in such an effort, and at what cost ($$)?

> Could a list be started with this objective in mind?

 

Maybe a good idea. We're now putting together

a course for teaching the subject of Chinese

medical Chinese. It won't be available for

a while, but meanwhile I'd be happy

to participate in such a list. The list idea

is probably limited in terms of what can

actually be accomplished online without the

addition of content in various media, but

it would certainly be a good place for people

to get together and have a place to get questions

answered and references, links, etc.

 

What does a

> " Functional Translation " mean and is there room for personal

> interpretation in this method?

 

Just a point about personal interpretation.

According to my understanding of traditional

Chinese thought, of which Chinese medicine

is a product and expression, the concept of

personal interpretation is of central importance.

 

If you look at the passage from Da4 Xue2 that

I post from time to time, it places the

introspective search for precise verbal

definitions to our inarticulate thoughts

as the very root of the process of self-cultivation

and the bringing of social order. What is

this if not personal interpretation?

 

The reason for enduring the hard work

of studying the language and coming to

know the ancient meanings of the words

is that possession of this knowledge

bestows both the freedom and responsibility

on those who possess it to personally

interpret it and bring it to life for

others. This is one of the key mechanisms

that has been used for thousands of years

to keep these traditions alive.

 

We cannot neglect it.

To do so and expect that the traditions

will survive despite such neglect is

folly...or worse.

 

It is not a matter of personal interpretation.

It is a matter of a person having something

to intrepret and then doing so.

 

>

> I know the topic is beyond the nature of this list and off-list

> answers, suggestions are welcome.

 

Certainly there should be a list and other

avenues available to foster and nourish

people's interest in the study of the language.

But as I understand it, it is not really off

topic on this list. As Carl Jung put it,

" The mere use of words is futile if you

do not know what they mean. "

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

--- fbernall <fbernall

wrote:

> Could a list be started with this objective >

[Translation] in mind?

 

I am a junkie (belong to 34 lists, and own

or help moderate 9). I have just started a list for

this.

 

This group has a few purposes:

 

1. Discussion of issues regarding translation of

Chinese medical texts.

2. Discussion of issues regarding Chinese medical

education and language requirements.

3. A forum to ask for help or opinions on the

discussion of specific works.

 

I hope the list-owner (Is it Todd?) will not be too

angry with me. I fully expect anyone who joins that

list to stay on this list.

 

Anyway, if you are interested, email me privately, or

if Todd allows, I will post the group's info publicly.

 

BTW, even though I started it, I am no expert and am

not moderating it.

 

Lorraine

 

=====

Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac.

 

 

 

Check out Shopping and Auctions for all of

your unique holiday gifts! Buy at

or bid at http://auctions.

[Guest guest]

Dan,

 

>

> In any case, at our school we have found this process a bit more

> difficult that we first thought - notably relating to the issues of

> time and energy that Z'ev noted. For that reason, starting next

> year, we are requiring at least one term of college level Chinese

> for entry into our program.

 

This is very encouraging. I know that your

school has taken the lead in this direction

and that your leadership has long served

a defining role in the field. I hope

that others see the wisdom in what you're

doing and follow suit.

 

With the application and presumed eventual

approval for accreditation of the new

doctorate level programs, the matter of

community standards looms as critcal

as the accreditation agency must develop

effective ways to implement the standards

that have been adopted.

 

The move to require an introduction to

Chinese language is an important step

to the establishment of generally

higher standards. I applaud it.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

At 7:24 PM +0000 12/14/01, pemachophel2001 wrote:

>As a whole, our Great Masters Series, sells very, very poorly.

--

 

This is deeply depressing, and thank you for your dedication in

continuing to provide this literature for those of us who do

appreciate it.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

dragon90405 wrote:

Jim,

I more than endorse your suggestions.

I'm working on some of them, and would

be glad to get our heads together and figure

out approaches to the others.

That's precisely what I mean by a grass

roots campaign. Once we get the magnitude

of the actual problem in clear view it

will be possible and necessary to plan for

and marshall the resources necessary to

accomplish such things.

The presentation of bilingual books, for

example, a simple enough sounding target,

is actually somewhat complex, when you

think the thought through to its likely

ramifications. I think the tactics are,

at this point, beyond the scope of this

list. But the strategy is certainly an

important topic for discussion.

I think that an important part of the

strategy consists of generating widespread

enthusiasm for studying the subject in

its larger context, as Bob Felt so

precisely put it.

That, among other reasons, is why I

am so persistent in talking about it

in this forum. I want to encourage people

to get involved in these pursuits, and I

particularly want to hear from the people

who think that what I'm saying is unreal,

stupid, unpopular, impractical, or simply

boring. I want to discover what's going

on in people's minds on this subject,

also including the silent ones.

Ken

 

Ken,

I can only say that I have been agreeing with what you and others have

been saying in regard to being able to navigate the chinese language on

some level for better understanding of cm. Elizabeth Rochat de la

Vallee has been a great inspiration for me to continue this pursuit, which

I haven't yet done. Maybe now I will get on with it.

But for an example, here's someone (an educator) who has

some different ideas about chinese language education:

 

Find two people that agree on a chinese translation, and

you will have a

group. I work with editors of major books and journals,

and they can not

agree with the meaning of words, and we are going to

teach this to beginners.

It is important to learn a few words and learn

them well, but do that inside

the "school of thought" that one is working with.

I do hope that others on this list will be encouraged to speak their

minds and contribute to this discussion.

Frances

 

 

 

, "jramholz" <jramholz> wrote:

> Ken:

>

> As described, I think this is a wonderful idea for post graduate

> level studies for a PhD in this field. You may be delightfully

> surprised to know that I taught myself to read a little bit of

> Chinese (starting back in the 80s) so I can get through books

of

> herbal and acupuncture forumulas. The most intersting and practical

> herbal formulas I use in my office are from my 300 or so books

in

> Chinese. Today, any herbalist who doen't read some Chinese is

at a

> real disadvantage considering the scope and variety of formulas

> available in the literature, compared to what's in translation.

>

> But even before lobbying the profession to add any course to

the

> school curriculums, it would help it to be a foregone conclusion

if

> more book and journal publishers were to include the Chinese

(at

> least important sections) in their new offerings. This could

be

done

> relatively quickly now that the software is easily available;

and

it

> would assist any professional discussions. Practitioners and

> students would have Chinese in their home even if they had no

> interest in learning to read it. If COMP achieved and promoted

this

> standard first, then schools would have less resistance to follow

> suit. Students and practitioners would already be use to and

> familiar with seeing Chinese in print.

>

> I suspect forums like Todd had the foresight to create in the

CHA

> are going to be of even more importance in the future to help

the

> profession to evolve. Discussions based on books with the Chinese

> already available in the texts would help facilitate them. Also,

if

> could display Chinese characters, that would make discussions

> easier to follow by people who don't read any Chinese, and expose

> them to the language at the same time.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

> , "dragon90405" <yulong@m...>

wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > ...matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or

> > > reverence.

> >

> > This is an extremely important point.

> > And of far greater concern than people

> > taking a text such as SHL on "faith

> > or reverence" is the fact that so many

> > people are educated to take the work

> > of a handful of modern writers as the

> > gospel truth of the subject, irrespective

> > of faith, reverence, validity, or any

> > actual pertinence to the knowledge base

> > that has long constituted the subject.

> >

> > Until and unless we as a profession

> > take responsibility for establishing

> > proper scholarship that is rooted in

> > knowledge of the Chinese language and

> > access to the literary foundations that

> > have been constructed over centuries,

> > we will all be in the condition that

> > you decry. In China, questions such

> > as those being discussed here, might

> > be referred to personnel from the SHL

> > department at a college or university

> > of TCM.

> >

> > This doesn't mean that "they've

> > got all the answers in China." It means

> > that modern Chinese scholars and doctors,

> > in their efforts to bring traditional

> > theories and methods to bear on the

> > health care challenges of contemporary

> > people, realized that they needed to

> > familiarize themselves with the accumulated

> > knowledge of the subject. They simply have

> > a great advantage over non-Chinese in having

> > a head start on linguistic and literary

> > access. And of course there is the benefit

> > of living in the cultural matrix that has

> > evolved from the one in which traditional

> > medicine first emerged.

> >

> > But they have no monopoly on the subject

> > and are, to the contrary, working hard to

> > make it available to foreigners as well as

> > to their country folk. Foreigners...

> > that's us...have to work just as hard, if

> > not harder to bring this transmission off

> > successfully. I believe strongly that this

> > work must begin with acquiring a basic

> > and functional familiarity with the language.

> >

> > For those who want to read more about this,

> > the editorial in the forthcoming issue of

> > CAOM focuses on the language requirement.

> > I am campaigning on this point. It's a

> > grass roots campaign in which I'd like to

> > enlist as many people as possible. I would

> > like to see students demanding to study

> > Chinese medical language, and I'd like to

> > see teachers demanding it of themselves

> > and each other as well as of their students.

> >

> > I'd like to see the schools individually

> > and as a group taking effective measures

> > to stimulate, foster, and support the

> > scholarship that is required to create

> > access to the Chinese medical literature,

> > modern and ancient, that remains such an

> > important feature of Chinese medicine.

> >

> > It's a campagin that focuses on caring

> > about the quality of our knowledge and

> > of our clinical skills, recognizing that

> > the latter cannot be reasonably expected

> > to continue to emerge without a healthy

> > condition of the former.

> >

> > The usual response I get when I carry on

> > like this is being told, in more or less

> > these words to "get real." But this is

> > about as real as I can get.

> >

> > Matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or

> > reverence and until and unless we change

> > the current conditions under which we

> > educate and certify practitioners of the

> > subject, that's pretty much what we are

> > doing.

> >

> > Ken

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bob:

 

Thanks for your response. I've long admired that you publish

important texts without much financial return. I suspect your

situation is probably much like other publishers. Any practitioner

not owning---at least---half of the Blue Poppy catalog should

consider becoming a dentist instead.

 

Do you think that new graduate and post graduate standards will help

increase sales significantly?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Jim,

>

> I can't give you actual figures (company policy), but I can give

you

> feedback on sales of translations of premodern texts, books on

> learning to read Chinese, and attendance at seminars.

>

> As a whole, our Great Masters Series, sells very, very poorly. If

we

> were only a profit-oriented company, we would let them all go out

of

> print. By publishing standards, they just don't sell fast enough

to

> pay the inventory tax, warehouse rent, insurance, etc., let alone

> recoup the prepress time and money. We're talking about dribs and

> drabs. Although we have plans to add the Yi Lin Gai Cuo and the

Xue

> Zheng Lun to this series in the next year or so, that's only

because I

> am willing to spend my own personal money to see this happen. If

it

> were a strictly business decision, we wouldn't do it. For me, it's

a

> personal indulgence.

>

> As for " Teaching Yourself to Read Modern Medical Chinese, " that

book

> also sells very, very poorly. We're still on our first printing.

> Again, dribs and drabs. Most other companies would let it go out

of

> print.

>

> And finally, our seminar of the same title has been so poorly

attended

> that we have no plans for teaching it again. We can't fly to

Portland,

> OR from DIA, rent a conference room, do print and direct mail

> advertising, pay the teacher, pay the teacher's room and board,

and

> make any profit if only seven or eight people sign up.

>

> I'd also like to say that creating dual language books is a no-

start

> proposition for Blue Poppy. Yes, there is the software to in-put

the

> characters, but we're talking about in-putting a whole book.

Secondly,

> we'd have to have a Chinese language proofreader. Third, it would

> double the printing costs (ink, paper, binding). In our

experience,

> there doesn't begin to be enough desire (read " sales " ) to make

this a

> viable option.

>

> Bob

>

> , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...>

wrote:

> > > I think that an important part of the

> > > strategy consists of generating widespread

> > > enthusiasm for studying the subject in

> > > its larger context, as Bob Felt so

> > > precisely put it.

> >

> >

> > " Widespread enthusiasm " may be an unrealistic goal; but

certainly

> > publishing bilingual translations should be adopted as the

standard

> > and the beginning of this process. The more people are exposed

to

> > Chinese, the closer you come to elevating the professional

> > standards. And, if publishers are not entusiastic, who can be?

> >

> > One essential marker of how much interest there is now is in the

> > numbers for sales of (1) classical translations, and (2) books

about

> > how to learn medical Chinese. Without these numbers we cannot

fairly

> > evaluate the trend. How fast are these books selling? It would

be an

> > indication as to how open practitioners are to the idea and how

well

> > a class in medical Chinese langauge may be received.

> >

> > And we should hear from practitioners who have done seminars on

> > teaching Chinese medical language---how well attended and

successful

> > are they?

> >

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Dan:

 

What level of proficiency in Chinese will you require?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, " dfbensky " <dbensky@e...> wrote:

> I basically agree with both Z'ev and Bob. Chinese language [or

> some East Asian language] should be an integral part of any

> school that attempts to make their students proficient in Oriental

> medicine. This is not to say that no one who does not read one

> of these languages is not proficient, as that is demonstrably

> false. No reason to go into that here, except to note that

learning

> the language makes learning the medicine much easier and

> helps give students the right trajectory.

>

> In any case, at our school we have found this process a bit more

> difficult that we first thought - notably relating to the issues

of

> time and energy that Z'ev noted. For that reason, starting next

> year, we are requiring at least one term of college level Chinese

> for entry into our program.

>

> Dan

[Guest guest]

Ken, Dan, Bob, others:

 

What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and

proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of

study in a curriculum?

 

Off the top of my head, I would think at least being able to read

the characters for herbs and acupuncture points.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> Dan,

>

> >

> > In any case, at our school we have found this process a bit more

> > difficult that we first thought - notably relating to the issues

of

> > time and energy that Z'ev noted. For that reason, starting next

> > year, we are requiring at least one term of college level

Chinese

> > for entry into our program.

>

> This is very encouraging. I know that your

> school has taken the lead in this direction

> and that your leadership has long served

> a defining role in the field. I hope

> that others see the wisdom in what you're

> doing and follow suit.

>

> With the application and presumed eventual

> approval for accreditation of the new

> doctorate level programs, the matter of

> community standards looms as critcal

> as the accreditation agency must develop

> effective ways to implement the standards

> that have been adopted.

>

> The move to require an introduction to

> Chinese language is an important step

> to the establishment of generally

> higher standards. I applaud it.

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Colleagues:

 

The doctoral program at Emperor's College will require rudimentary translational skills. As well, it will contain a revisitation of Nei Jing, Su Wen, Shang Han Lun, and Wen Bing.

 

The course 'Behavioral Medicine in the Classics' requires translation of classical literature. Other courses in the behavioral medicine specialty program will require Bob's text 'Chinese Medical Psychiatry.'

 

Will

[Guest guest]

Jim,

>

> What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and

> proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of

> study in a curriculum?

 

I think it starts for the non-Chinese student,

i.e. for a student who has no or little exposure

to Chinese language and culture, at a more basic

level than the language itself. Rather, I see

that entrance to the subject begins with a

survey of a number of subjects, which provides

an orientation to the territory to be explored

during a proper education in Chinese medicine.

 

The premise of our first book was based on

precisely this assessment of the situation

facing those of us who come from different

backgrounds to the study of Chinese medicine.

From one point of view, Who Can Ride the Dragon?

began as an inventory of the materials that I

had collected during several years of studying

in China. I asked the question, " What do I need to

know in order to understand the first thing

about Chinese medicine? " And then I went about

listing out the answers and gathering up

the materials that led to them.

 

From another perspective that book was first put

together as a collection of teaching materials

for Chinese students at the Chengdu University

of TCM in 1994-1995 when I was teaching a seminar

there on translation of Chinese medical terms

and texts. In fact, during the publication process

the whole manuscript had to go through a complete

overhaul when we realized that it was still

focusing on problems facing Chinese students

and that we intended it to be primarily of

use to non-Chinese readers. Interesting

exercise for the writers in the crowd: take

something you've written and write it over

for a different cultural mindset.

 

I mention all of this because I have given

the question you're asking a great deal of

thought over the past ten years. What constitutes

proficiency and how is such proficiency to be

achieved?

 

I'd say that someone needs to be quite

familiar with the material covered in

Who Can Ride the Dragon? The last chapter

in that book is a list of about 100 Chinese

medical terms, and at the time we put

that book together it was our answer to

the question in terms of a basic vocabulary

that a beginner should command.

 

However£¬I believe that there will soon be

vastly more comprehensive materials available

to address the issue of language learning

quite directly and effectively.

 

I think one of the most important proficiencies

that a student should be able to achieve during

the first year of study is a familiarity with

the mode of thinking employed in the theoretical

materials of Chinese medicine. As I've stated

elsewhere, this requires a familiarity with the

language and the way that the language organizes

information, transmits and receives it.

 

There is a unique and beautiful efficiency to

the artifact of the Chinese language. It is a model

of organization, complexity, and methodology

for the thinking that is found at work in

all traditional arts and sciences, very much

including Chinese medicine.

 

It's not just a matter of " knowing the language. "

Without knowing the language, one does not know

the way in which the elements of theory interact.

 

Therefore, being proficient with this aspect

of language learning is critically important

in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.

 

And again, the table of contents of Who Can Ride

the Dragon? will give you the specifics on what

we continue to believe constitute the materials

with which one must be familiar in order to

accomplish this proficiency. I think one of the

reviews at the amazon site suggests that that

book be required reading for all students

of Chinese medicine. That was exactly the point.

After twenty five years of study in the subject

area, I was able to put between the covers

of a fairly slender volume everything that

I wished I had had access to when I'd first

set out on the path.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Frances,

>

> I can only say that I have been agreeing with what you and others

have

> been saying in regard to being able to navigate the chinese

language on

> some level for better understanding of cm.

 

I appreciate, of course, knowing that

you and others agree. But I admit that

I am far more interested in hearing

the disagreements. I reckon that the

status quo being what it is, there must

be a vast " silent majority " (to use a

phrase from another time and circumstance)

that do not agree. And I am very interested

to learn more about the nature and substance

of such disagreements.

 

Elizabeth Rochat de la

> Vallee has been a great inspiration for me to continue this pursuit,

> which I haven't yet done. Maybe now I will get on with it.

 

Yes. By all means get on with it.

The next year will pass, maybe even

more quickly than this one has. And

when it has, you'll either have gotten

on with it, or not.

>

> But for an example, here's someone (an educator) who has some

> different ideas about chinese language education:

>

> Find two people that agree on a chinese translation, and you will

have a

>

> group. I work with editors of major books and journals, and they

can

> not

> agree with the meaning of words, and we are going to teach this

to

> beginners.

> It is important to learn a few words and learn them well, but do

that

> inside

> the " school of thought " that one is working with.

>

Makes sense to me. The more I work in

this area, the more I come to recognize

that far more important than arriving

at conclusions is the process undertaken

to approach them.

 

 

> I do hope that others on this list will be encouraged to speak their

> minds and contribute to this discussion.

 

Me, too!

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Jim -

 

As soon as Emperor's College receives Accreditation Commission approval, publications will become available. We don't know when that will happen. Soon I hope.

 

Will

 

In a message dated 12/15/01 9:56:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, jramholz writes:

 

 

It sounds interesting. Can you post a syllabus?

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Will:

 

It sounds interesting. Can you post a syllabus?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> Colleagues:

>

> The doctoral program at Emperor's College will require rudimentary

> translational skills. As well, it will contain a revisitation of

Nei Jing, Su

> Wen, Shang Han Lun, and Wen Bing.

>

> The course 'Behavioral Medicine in the Classics' requires

translation of

> classical literature. Other courses in the behavioral medicine

specialty

> program will require Bob's text 'Chinese Medical Psychiatry.'

>

> Will

[Guest guest]

What do I need toknow in order to understand the first thingabout Chinese medicine?"

>>>What does this mean

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Saturday, December 15, 2001 6:41 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

Jim,> > What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and > proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of > study in a curriculum?I think it starts for the non-Chinese student,i.e. for a student who has no or little exposureto Chinese language and culture, at a more basiclevel than the language itself. Rather, I seethat entrance to the subject begins with asurvey of a number of subjects, which providesan orientation to the territory to be exploredduring a proper education in Chinese medicine.The premise of our first book was based onprecisely this assessment of the situationfacing those of us who come from differentbackgrounds to the study of Chinese medicine.From one point of view, Who Can Ride the Dragon?began as an inventory of the materials that Ihad collected during several years of studyingin China. I asked the question, "What do I need toknow in order to understand the first thingabout Chinese medicine?" And then I went aboutlisting out the answers and gathering upthe materials that led to them.From another perspective that book was first puttogether as a collection of teaching materialsfor Chinese students at the Chengdu Universityof TCM in 1994-1995 when I was teaching a seminarthere on translation of Chinese medical termsand texts. In fact, during the publication processthe whole manuscript had to go through a completeoverhaul when we realized that it was stillfocusing on problems facing Chinese studentsand that we intended it to be primarily ofuse to non-Chinese readers. Interesting exercise for the writers in the crowd: takesomething you've written and write it overfor a different cultural mindset.I mention all of this because I have giventhe question you're asking a great deal of thought over the past ten years. What constitutesproficiency and how is such proficiency to beachieved?I'd say that someone needs to be quite familiar with the material covered in Who Can Ride the Dragon? The last chapterin that book is a list of about 100 Chinesemedical terms, and at the time we putthat book together it was our answer tothe question in terms of a basic vocabularythat a beginner should command.However£¬I believe that there will soon bevastly more comprehensive materials availableto address the issue of language learningquite directly and effectively.I think one of the most important proficienciesthat a student should be able to achieve duringthe first year of study is a familiarity withthe mode of thinking employed in the theoreticalmaterials of Chinese medicine. As I've statedelsewhere, this requires a familiarity with thelanguage and the way that the language organizesinformation, transmits and receives it.There is a unique and beautiful efficiency tothe artifact of the Chinese language. It is a modelof organization, complexity, and methodologyfor the thinking that is found at work inall traditional arts and sciences, very muchincluding Chinese medicine. It's not just a matter of "knowing the language."Without knowing the language, one does not knowthe way in which the elements of theory interact.Therefore, being proficient with this aspectof language learning is critically important in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.And again, the table of contents of Who Can Ridethe Dragon? will give you the specifics on whatwe continue to believe constitute the materialswith which one must be familiar in order toaccomplish this proficiency. I think one of thereviews at the amazon site suggests that thatbook be required reading for all studentsof Chinese medicine. That was exactly the point.After twenty five years of study in the subjectarea, I was able to put between the coversof a fairly slender volume everything thatI wished I had had access to when I'd firstset out on the path. KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I think one of the most important proficienciesthat a student should be able to achieve duringthe first year of study is a familiarity withthe mode of thinking employed in the theoreticalmaterials of Chinese medicine. As I've statedelsewhere, this requires a familiarity with thelanguage and the way that the language organizesinformation, transmits and receives it.>>>Does this needs to be in Chinese?

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Saturday, December 15, 2001 6:41 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

Jim,> > What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and > proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of > study in a curriculum?I think it starts for the non-Chinese student,i.e. for a student who has no or little exposureto Chinese language and culture, at a more basiclevel than the language itself. Rather, I seethat entrance to the subject begins with asurvey of a number of subjects, which providesan orientation to the territory to be exploredduring a proper education in Chinese medicine.The premise of our first book was based onprecisely this assessment of the situationfacing those of us who come from differentbackgrounds to the study of Chinese medicine.From one point of view, Who Can Ride the Dragon?began as an inventory of the materials that Ihad collected during several years of studyingin China. I asked the question, "What do I need toknow in order to understand the first thingabout Chinese medicine?" And then I went aboutlisting out the answers and gathering upthe materials that led to them.From another perspective that book was first puttogether as a collection of teaching materialsfor Chinese students at the Chengdu Universityof TCM in 1994-1995 when I was teaching a seminarthere on translation of Chinese medical termsand texts. In fact, during the publication processthe whole manuscript had to go through a completeoverhaul when we realized that it was stillfocusing on problems facing Chinese studentsand that we intended it to be primarily ofuse to non-Chinese readers. Interesting exercise for the writers in the crowd: takesomething you've written and write it overfor a different cultural mindset.I mention all of this because I have giventhe question you're asking a great deal of thought over the past ten years. What constitutesproficiency and how is such proficiency to beachieved?I'd say that someone needs to be quite familiar with the material covered in Who Can Ride the Dragon? The last chapterin that book is a list of about 100 Chinesemedical terms, and at the time we putthat book together it was our answer tothe question in terms of a basic vocabularythat a beginner should command.However£¬I believe that there will soon bevastly more comprehensive materials availableto address the issue of language learningquite directly and effectively.I think one of the most important proficienciesthat a student should be able to achieve duringthe first year of study is a familiarity withthe mode of thinking employed in the theoreticalmaterials of Chinese medicine. As I've statedelsewhere, this requires a familiarity with thelanguage and the way that the language organizesinformation, transmits and receives it.There is a unique and beautiful efficiency tothe artifact of the Chinese language. It is a modelof organization, complexity, and methodologyfor the thinking that is found at work inall traditional arts and sciences, very muchincluding Chinese medicine. It's not just a matter of "knowing the language."Without knowing the language, one does not knowthe way in which the elements of theory interact.Therefore, being proficient with this aspectof language learning is critically important in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.And again, the table of contents of Who Can Ridethe Dragon? will give you the specifics on whatwe continue to believe constitute the materialswith which one must be familiar in order toaccomplish this proficiency. I think one of thereviews at the amazon site suggests that thatbook be required reading for all studentsof Chinese medicine. That was exactly the point.After twenty five years of study in the subjectarea, I was able to put between the coversof a fairly slender volume everything thatI wished I had had access to when I'd firstset out on the path. KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

It's not just a matter of "knowing the language."Without knowing the language, one does not knowthe way in which the elements of theory interact.Therefore, being proficient with this aspectof language learning is critically important in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.>>>>>Although I understand what you are saying, taking this to an extreme will mean that unless you have grown up with Chinese you will never be able to truly learn the medicine. With time one learns to think in a second language but it is never pure. As one that takes the position that medicine is nothing more than treating patients and getting predictable results, I have to strongly disagree with these assumptions.

May be we should start calling this scholars of and Culture. Not Doctors of Medicine. I am glad that at least Bensy's school seems to be strongly clinically, and system based, as this integrates real life thinking. Schools should decide what they believe is important in the process of making clinicians, but to me to be a good clinicians is not the same as a good scholar. Four years of schooling is a short time and priorities are importent. Its great that Dan is puting Chinese as a prerequisit and not making it the purpace in the eductions.

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Saturday, December 15, 2001 6:41 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

Jim,> > What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and > proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of > study in a curriculum?I think it starts for the non-Chinese student,i.e. for a student who has no or little exposureto Chinese language and culture, at a more basiclevel than the language itself. Rather, I seethat entrance to the subject begins with asurvey of a number of subjects, which providesan orientation to the territory to be exploredduring a proper education in Chinese medicine.The premise of our first book was based onprecisely this assessment of the situationfacing those of us who come from differentbackgrounds to the study of Chinese medicine.From one point of view, Who Can Ride the Dragon?began as an inventory of the materials that Ihad collected during several years of studyingin China. I asked the question, "What do I need toknow in order to understand the first thingabout Chinese medicine?" And then I went aboutlisting out the answers and gathering upthe materials that led to them.From another perspective that book was first puttogether as a collection of teaching materialsfor Chinese students at the Chengdu Universityof TCM in 1994-1995 when I was teaching a seminarthere on translation of Chinese medical termsand texts. In fact, during the publication processthe whole manuscript had to go through a completeoverhaul when we realized that it was stillfocusing on problems facing Chinese studentsand that we intended it to be primarily ofuse to non-Chinese readers. Interesting exercise for the writers in the crowd: takesomething you've written and write it overfor a different cultural mindset.I mention all of this because I have giventhe question you're asking a great deal of thought over the past ten years. What constitutesproficiency and how is such proficiency to beachieved?I'd say that someone needs to be quite familiar with the material covered in Who Can Ride the Dragon? The last chapterin that book is a list of about 100 Chinesemedical terms, and at the time we putthat book together it was our answer tothe question in terms of a basic vocabularythat a beginner should command.However£¬I believe that there will soon bevastly more comprehensive materials availableto address the issue of language learningquite directly and effectively.I think one of the most important proficienciesthat a student should be able to achieve duringthe first year of study is a familiarity withthe mode of thinking employed in the theoreticalmaterials of Chinese medicine. As I've statedelsewhere, this requires a familiarity with thelanguage and the way that the language organizesinformation, transmits and receives it.There is a unique and beautiful efficiency tothe artifact of the Chinese language. It is a modelof organization, complexity, and methodologyfor the thinking that is found at work inall traditional arts and sciences, very muchincluding Chinese medicine. It's not just a matter of "knowing the language."Without knowing the language, one does not knowthe way in which the elements of theory interact.Therefore, being proficient with this aspectof language learning is critically important in th education of a doctor of Chinese medicine.And again, the table of contents of Who Can Ridethe Dragon? will give you the specifics on whatwe continue to believe constitute the materialswith which one must be familiar in order toaccomplish this proficiency. I think one of thereviews at the amazon site suggests that thatbook be required reading for all studentsof Chinese medicine. That was exactly the point.After twenty five years of study in the subjectarea, I was able to put between the coversof a fairly slender volume everything thatI wished I had had access to when I'd firstset out on the path. KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Off the top of my head, I would think at least being able to read the characters for herbs

>>>Knowing these have helped greatly in China. When trying to follow older pratitioners you need need to know how to read them in hand writing that is often done based on clasical characters.But, if one is not planing to go to China you are better off speding the time learnig the herbs.

Alon

 

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jramholz

Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:43 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

Ken, Dan, Bob, others:What do you think a basic standard Chinese medical vocabulary and proficiency level should be for practitioners---say after a year of study in a curriculum?Off the top of my head, I would think at least being able to read the characters for herbs and acupuncture points.Jim Ramholz, "dragon90405" <yulong@m...> wrote:> Dan,> > > > > In any case, at our school we have found this process a bit more > > difficult that we first thought - notably relating to the issues of > > time and energy that Z'ev noted. For that reason, starting next > > year, we are requiring at least one term of college level Chinese > > for entry into our program. > > This is very encouraging. I know that your> school has taken the lead in this direction> and that your leadership has long served> a defining role in the field. I hope> that others see the wisdom in what you're> doing and follow suit.> > With the application and presumed eventual> approval for accreditation of the new> doctorate level programs, the matter of> community standards looms as critcal> as the accreditation agency must develop> effective ways to implement the standards> that have been adopted. > > The move to require an introduction to> Chinese language is an important step> to the establishment of generally> higher standards. I applaud it.> > KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.