Chinese language requirements

[Guest guest]

 

- It doesn't seem all that mysterious to me.It's possible that someone can be a "bornhealer" and, after all, all that the theoryand methods speak to and address is an understandingof the body and its circumstances. But again,do we want to rely upon such phenomena asthe basis of instruction and examination?The Chinese tended to prefer a more orderlyapproach when it came to the establishment of organizations and agencies designed topromulgate medicine. Doesn't it strike youas a bit bizarre that we in the West havestruck out on our own path without evenbothering to become fully familiar withthe traditional ways and means?

 

>>>>the chinese often relay on rog memorazation do we need to follow the same? I wander? Also I do not believe that one needs to have some kind of special talant to become a good cliniction. Its about know enough matierial ie theory, to have a workable system with clinical application exposure. For example, Dr Lai at our schcool was trained as an apprentice with a specific style of herbal medicine. I do not believe he had a strong fundation in classics, at least it did not come through his explanations and formulations, but he was a good example of modern clinical application of TCM. His clinical outcomes did not seem to differ much from clasically trained Dr I have followed in China.

Alon

 

dragon90405

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:35 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

> > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing > > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice> > > > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is> > a prerequisite at Dan's school.> > I think Dan said it is immensely helpful,Which is why he makes it a prerequisite.>... but that he knows plenty of > px who do just fine w/o it.Well, what's plenty? And are we comfortablewith doing without something that is soimmensely helpful? > How is this possible?It doesn't seem all that mysterious to me.It's possible that someone can be a "bornhealer" and, after all, all that the theoryand methods speak to and address is an understandingof the body and its circumstances. But again,do we want to rely upon such phenomena asthe basis of instruction and examination?The Chinese tended to prefer a more orderlyapproach when it came to the establishment of organizations and agencies designed topromulgate medicine. Doesn't it strike youas a bit bizarre that we in the West havestruck out on our own path without evenbothering to become fully familiar withthe traditional ways and means? Perhaps there are > those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite this > lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? I > have no idea.Lots of people are born with lots of gifts.Medical education can develop the inborncapacities if it is properly conducted.Or it can stifle them.It's not unimaginable that someone could beborn to something as complicated as flyingan airplane. I've known people who virtuallytaught themselves to fly a plane. You mightnot find flying with them all that comfortablehowever.While what you say is unarguably true, itdoes not address the issue of the importanceof language and literary studies in the curriculaof students of Chinese medicine. Yet you stateit as a brush off of the argument in favorof the inclusion of these aspects of the studysuggesting that simply because something can beor might be that we should depend on it.And I just don't find this to be convincinglogic.Ken > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Dan thanks for your response I know you are very busy.

 

tong1 " unblocked, free-flowing, free, unstop, etc." There are many other examples

>>>can you brake down the radicals and show me how is it so different than learning the meanings of free-flowing, unblocked,etc.in Chinese medicine?

 

2) Chinese is a culture of context and relationships and harmony. I think the emphasis on these is one of the hallmarks of the medicine. Studying any aspect of Chinese language brings this out very, very clearly. For example, in classical Chinese, many verbs are about a relationship rather than the linear direction of that relationship (which is determined by context). Examples are that the same word can mean "give" or "receive;" another word can mean "to present from asuperior to an inferior" or "to present from an inferior to asuperior." This, along with the parallelism that is inherent in the language, helps people understand such concepts as the interrelationships of the five phases.

>>>>>>Interesting, I wander if my knowledge of Hebrew which at time also has meaning that are context based, has helped me understand TCM with less difficulty.

Practicing medicine is such a humbling experience that it has taught even someone like me that it is hubris to think anyone really knows what it takes to do it well.>>>>>That is so true. I often say that now after studying TCM for 20 years and Orthoeadic Medicine and Osteopathy for some 12 years I know less about the spine that when I started

Alon

 

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dfbensky

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:37 PM

Re: Chinese language requirements

Well, this list is a busy place! Let's see if I can reply toeveryone in one message as they are somewhat related:Alon asked about particulars as to how even a smattering of Chinese helps students learn Chinese medicine.I'll give a couple of examples off the top of my head:1) There are at least a few important words that as far as I can tell are impossible to translate well. If the students learn these words and what they mean, the Chinese can be used in clinical discussions enabling everyone to "cut to the chase." One example of this is tong1 " unblocked, free-flowing, free, unstop, etc." There are many other examples.2) Chinese is a culture of context and relationships and harmony. I think the emphasis on these is one of the hallmarks of the medicine. Studying any aspect of Chinese language brings this out very, very clearly. For example, in classical Chinese, many verbs are about a relationship rather than the linear direction of that relationship (which is determined by context). Examples are that the same word can mean "give" or "receive;" another word can mean "to present from asuperior to an inferior" or "to present from an inferior to asuperior." This, along with the parallelism that is inherent in the language, helps people understand such concepts as the interrelationships of the five phases.Ken asked a couple of questions:1) Is the change in our requirements a lessening of the Chinese language instruction? No. We are continuing the same amount of instruction in the school's curriculum. Now that as of next fall all incoming students will have at least one semester of Chinese before coming here, we expect that we will be able to cover significantly more material and have better outcomes. If there is something that I wrote that gave you the opposite impression, please point it out to me so that I can correct it.2) How could I say that Chinese in not requisite for successful practice [Todd's paraphrase] yet have it as a prerequisite forour school?I found this an interesting question, though not one that made immediate sense to me. One has to do with the way things are; the other with the way I want to do things. The number of thoughtful successful practitioners just on this list who read no East Asian language are obvious evidence that one can get along without this skill. Practicing medicine is such a humbling experience that it has taught even someone like me that it is hubris to think anyone really knows what it takes to do it well.On the other hand, when Paul Karsten (who is the educational specialist behind our school - I am just along for the ride) and I started thinking about starting SIOM many years ago, it was just as obvious to me that without a language component it just would not be worth my while to be involved in the school. I think a decent analogy is that while there are good cooks who only have one arm and brilliant rock climbers who are blind, it is easier to cook with two arms and rock climb if you can see.This gets back to our mission and goals. In the simplest terms, we have been trying to provide the students with the right dynamic, to set them off on a good trajectory so that with the tools that they have learned from us, the experience that their patients give them, and the further learning they will get in post-graduate seminars, they will continue to grow as practitioners and deepen their understanding of the medicine. It is way too soon to tell if we have been successful.Finally, while it may appear to be self-serving, I have to take exception to some of Bob Flaws' remarks about future pathways of education. While clearly he and I agree on much in this regard, I am afraid that I don't think that university-based educationwill be the salvation of our field here. The reason is that the industrial model of education has its own dynamics and culture and shi4 [propensities/inclinations/forces]; to me most of these are inimical to the study of Chinese medicine.DanChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Bob,Matt VanBenschoten argues that knotty diseases seem to respond better tochinese herbs based on a pharmacological approach. I would be surprisedif he was making a blanket statement about the whole system.>>>Do you have more info?

Alon

 

-

Warren Cargal

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:22 PM

Re: Re: Chinese language requirements

Bob,Matt VanBenschoten argues that knotty diseases seem to respond better tochinese herbs based on a pharmacological approach. I would be surprisedif he was making a blanket statement about the whole system.WarrenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

More information! How bout Amer. J. Acupuncture 1980 thru 1998.for

evolution of his work.

 

Warren

[Guest guest]

Assuming you have grounding in the chinese classics, you are still going

to have problems w/ knotty diseases and i think that is where Van

Benschoten work becomes interesting. The assumption that if one were

adequately trained in Li-Zhu medicine, Liu Wan-su's Law of Similar

Transformation, Nan Jing Five Phase theory then other options would not

be needed is weak. In the past i would refer some of my knotty disease

patients over to a group of OMD's who where trained and taught in china.

Know what i did not see a significant change.

 

Be interesting to hear from other practioners how they are doing w/

knotty diseases.

 

Warren Cargal

[Guest guest]

1. While Mark VanBenschoten has recently argued that Chinese medical theory is not necessary to prescribe Chinese meds, I still think it is the most useful system for their prescription,

 

 

>>>>I think here we have to distinguish between out-comes and practicing TCM. If he can show me better outcomes, then I would say that knowing pharmacology of herbs that have their roots in China is better than using TCM. However, it is not doing Traditional Chinese medicine it is doing modern herbal medicine

 

2. In addition, I have been impressed (specifically with their herbal expertise) with the graduates of Dan's school who have moved to Boulder fresh after graduation compared to recent graduates of other schools.

 

>>>>I would be very surprised if knowing Chinese has a major part of their ability. From what I have heard of Dan's school follows very high standards and a system oriented teaching which has a strong clinical value.

Alon

 

 

 

-

pemachophel2001

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:01 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

Perhaps the utility of reading Chinese has something to do with whether one is primarily doing acupuncture or primarily prescribing internal meds. Personally, since I don't think Chinese medical theory is absolutely necessary for getting results with acupuncture, I don't feel as strongly that acupuncturists need to read Chinese. I feel the same way about tuina. However, I feel quite differently about the prescription of Chinese meds. While Mark VanBenschoten has recently argued that Chinese medical theory is not necessary to prescribe Chinese meds, I still think it is the most useful system for their prescription, and it is my experience that understanding the Chinese language and having access to the Chinese literature makes a large difference in understanding and, therefore, applying this system in clinical practice.I've seen plenty of acupuncturists get good results who did not have access to the Chinese literature (or much of any literature, for that matter). However, most of the really good prescribers of Chinese meds I know have at least some access to the Chinese literature. Further, as a teacher, I've seen a marked increase in students' ability to practice internal Chinese medicine concomitant with their increased ability to access the Chinese literature. In addition, I have been impressed (specifically with their herbal expertise) with the graduates of Dan's school who have moved to Boulder fresh after graduation compared to recent graduates of other schools.I agree with Dan that one does not have to read Chinese to be a good practitioner. There are many factors that go to making a good practitioner, and I think it is important that we recognize that some of those factors differ between acupuncture and Chinese herbalism. When it comes to prescribing Chinese medicinals, I think reading Chinese makes a big difference in really grokking the system.Bob, "1" <@i...> wrote:> , "dragon90405" <yulong@m...> wrote:> > Dan,> > > > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing > > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice> > > > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is> > a prerequisite at Dan's school.> > I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, but that he knows plenty of > px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps there are > those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite this > lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? I > have no idea. > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

- Chinese words, English phrasing. It's afrustration. A little language, for me, has not changed my world view. Itonly makes me realize how limited I've constructed the world.>>>>I think the more one knows about any medical subject the more one knows this to be true

Alon

Michael Max L.Ac

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 8:04 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

This is a most interesting conversation. It brings up many questions thatI've been asking myself.****** warning, this is a long post, you can just skip to the bottom toavoid my rambling **************I have a few thoughts on learning Chinese, especially as it applies topracticing Chinese medicine. I'm currently living Taipei, where I have beenstudying Chinese full time, in an attempt to see if the language really doesilluminate the practice of the medicine. I have more questions than answers,and an assortment of cherished hopes and dreams that now laying rusting andmolding in the damp of Taiwan.I've heard it said that language gives the keys to a culture. It's like awindow into another world. I believe it. In studying Chinese, I'm beginningto see how the grammar forces you into thinking in a certain way. It focusesyour attention, parses experience into a certain rhythm and pattern. While Ican sometimes catch the drift of the grammar, I'm sorry to say that Igenerally think in English. Chinese words, English phrasing. It's afrustration. A little language, for me, has not changed my world view. Itonly makes me realize how limited I've constructed the world.8 months in Asia has certainly given me some firsthand experience with theculture that this medicine grows from. I see it used here in ways that aremore integrated with the culture (of course). You can buy a si wu tang likedrink in the 7/11. It is very common for woman to tonify their blood aftertheir periods, and to know a fair amount about basic formulas. Herb storesare everywhere. People understand that there are certain foods that are hotor cold. Asia has also shown me how arrogant my thinking has been.I thought if I learned something of the language and culture, I could,perhaps, be a better doctor. What I'm finding is that learning about theculture means a lot more than learning a little Chinese. This culture isvast. A little language does not help me to penetrate very far. There areways of doing and thinking here at are wildly different. Little things likeguan xi and 'Face'. I'd heard about them. But, navigating them on a dailybasis. It's like stepping into an Alice in Wonderland world. I come from aculture that places a high value on a person's 'insides' matching their'outsides'. We call it congruency. Here in Taiwan that will not get you veryfar. You have to argue around the issue with a smile. Will this help me tobe a better doctor? I don't know, I've yet master the art of giving andsaving Face. And yet to treat a patient, where I consider their problem assomething more something to be 'fixed'. I've yet to work with a personssymptoms in the same way I'd negotiate a deal that saves and gives Face.I thought being able to read a little medical Chinese, knowing the pinyin ofherbs, and having read some translations of some Chinese classics might giveme a leg up on learning Chinese here. I was so wrong. The first thing Ilearned is that pinyin has very little to do with Chinese. Pinyin is asystem that approximates the sounds of Chinese. But, if you don't learn thetones, AND do it right. Make mistakes and get corrected. Over and again,then you have learned to speak something that is not English, nor is itChinese. I learned this by walking into an herb store and trying to buy afew herbs. I was completely misunderstood. I'm not saying we should not beteaching people to use pinyin, but we should also make it clear that this isNOT Chinese. Unless we want to teach it correctly, which I think will bedifficult, very few Americans know enough pronunciation to teach itcorrectly. I previously thought that knowing a little language would open up the worldof Eastern thought to me. Maybe. But, if it does, I suspect it will takeyears of dedicated study. Not a few months of translating some articles. Isuspect that that is simply Western thought with Chinese words.What tipped me off to this was looking at how Asian's use English. There isa thing here I call Asian English. It is terribly funny. You can see it onbuildings, in advertisements, in the mottoes adorn the scooters here. It iscompletely laughable. The apartment building that says 'Performance ofArchitecture". The scooter that claims, "We reach for the sky, neither doescivilization". The scooter that says, "for the young at heart that want toget away with it all". The menu that says "Baked Chicken Nugget" and "ChessHam Wich". English here is used in ways that are hilarious. But, no one herethinks it is funny. Just us English speakers. I wonder if my grasp of thelittle Chinese I have is as off the mark, as the English I see in Asia. Itcertainly gives me pause to think.More than anything, spending some time in Asia and having my Western ideasabout this place ripped away has been helpful. Being exposed to Asianracism, Asian hospitality, Asian standards of 'cleanliness', Asiangenerosity, the cultural norms, the ways traffic and people flow. The wayspeople connect. All this has given me a deeper appreciation for how people,where ever we are, find solutions to the problems of life.All this is a wordy way of saying:1. I think learning some Chinese is a good idea.2. Learning Chinese is a serious study. Three years of Chinese in Chinesemedical school gave me a glimpse, but not an unobstructed view. Chinesemedicinal school is a lot of work. Better to have studied some ChineseBEFORE going to medical school.3. Pinyin is not Chinese. It might allow Americans to talk to each other,but it will not help you to talk to real Chinese speakers.4. I suspect that a lot of the worldview is encoded in the grammar, the wayyou focus and parse experience into thought, thought into meaning. Andmeaning into action.5. Taiwan is really fun sometimes, and the food rocks!Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Warren:

 

Is he using single herbs or combinations? Do you have any examples

of how he puts an herbal formula together for specific problems

using that criteria? It would be interesting to see how different,

if at all, it might be.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, Warren Cargal <wcargal9@b...> wrote:

> Bob,

>

> Matt VanBenschoten argues that knotty diseases seem to respond

better to

> chinese herbs based on a pharmacological approach. I would be

surprised

> if he was making a blanket statement about the whole system.

>

> Warren

[Guest guest]

You can buy a si wu tang likedrink in the 7/11. It is very common for woman to tonify their blood aftertheir periods, and to know a fair amount about basic formulas. Herb storesare everywhere. People understand that there are certain foods that are hotor cold. >>>And I still get Taiwanese patients all the time asking me if TCM really works?

Alon

 

-

Michael Max L.Ac

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 8:04 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

This is a most interesting conversation. It brings up many questions thatI've been asking myself.****** warning, this is a long post, you can just skip to the bottom toavoid my rambling **************I have a few thoughts on learning Chinese, especially as it applies topracticing Chinese medicine. I'm currently living Taipei, where I have beenstudying Chinese full time, in an attempt to see if the language really doesilluminate the practice of the medicine. I have more questions than answers,and an assortment of cherished hopes and dreams that now laying rusting andmolding in the damp of Taiwan.I've heard it said that language gives the keys to a culture. It's like awindow into another world. I believe it. In studying Chinese, I'm beginningto see how the grammar forces you into thinking in a certain way. It focusesyour attention, parses experience into a certain rhythm and pattern. While Ican sometimes catch the drift of the grammar, I'm sorry to say that Igenerally think in English. Chinese words, English phrasing. It's afrustration. A little language, for me, has not changed my world view. Itonly makes me realize how limited I've constructed the world.8 months in Asia has certainly given me some firsthand experience with theculture that this medicine grows from. I see it used here in ways that aremore integrated with the culture (of course). You can buy a si wu tang likedrink in the 7/11. It is very common for woman to tonify their blood aftertheir periods, and to know a fair amount about basic formulas. Herb storesare everywhere. People understand that there are certain foods that are hotor cold. Asia has also shown me how arrogant my thinking has been.I thought if I learned something of the language and culture, I could,perhaps, be a better doctor. What I'm finding is that learning about theculture means a lot more than learning a little Chinese. This culture isvast. A little language does not help me to penetrate very far. There areways of doing and thinking here at are wildly different. Little things likeguan xi and 'Face'. I'd heard about them. But, navigating them on a dailybasis. It's like stepping into an Alice in Wonderland world. I come from aculture that places a high value on a person's 'insides' matching their'outsides'. We call it congruency. Here in Taiwan that will not get you veryfar. You have to argue around the issue with a smile. Will this help me tobe a better doctor? I don't know, I've yet master the art of giving andsaving Face. And yet to treat a patient, where I consider their problem assomething more something to be 'fixed'. I've yet to work with a personssymptoms in the same way I'd negotiate a deal that saves and gives Face.I thought being able to read a little medical Chinese, knowing the pinyin ofherbs, and having read some translations of some Chinese classics might giveme a leg up on learning Chinese here. I was so wrong. The first thing Ilearned is that pinyin has very little to do with Chinese. Pinyin is asystem that approximates the sounds of Chinese. But, if you don't learn thetones, AND do it right. Make mistakes and get corrected. Over and again,then you have learned to speak something that is not English, nor is itChinese. I learned this by walking into an herb store and trying to buy afew herbs. I was completely misunderstood. I'm not saying we should not beteaching people to use pinyin, but we should also make it clear that this isNOT Chinese. Unless we want to teach it correctly, which I think will bedifficult, very few Americans know enough pronunciation to teach itcorrectly. I previously thought that knowing a little language would open up the worldof Eastern thought to me. Maybe. But, if it does, I suspect it will takeyears of dedicated study. Not a few months of translating some articles. Isuspect that that is simply Western thought with Chinese words.What tipped me off to this was looking at how Asian's use English. There isa thing here I call Asian English. It is terribly funny. You can see it onbuildings, in advertisements, in the mottoes adorn the scooters here. It iscompletely laughable. The apartment building that says 'Performance ofArchitecture". The scooter that claims, "We reach for the sky, neither doescivilization". The scooter that says, "for the young at heart that want toget away with it all". The menu that says "Baked Chicken Nugget" and "ChessHam Wich". English here is used in ways that are hilarious. But, no one herethinks it is funny. Just us English speakers. I wonder if my grasp of thelittle Chinese I have is as off the mark, as the English I see in Asia. Itcertainly gives me pause to think.More than anything, spending some time in Asia and having my Western ideasabout this place ripped away has been helpful. Being exposed to Asianracism, Asian hospitality, Asian standards of 'cleanliness', Asiangenerosity, the cultural norms, the ways traffic and people flow. The wayspeople connect. All this has given me a deeper appreciation for how people,where ever we are, find solutions to the problems of life.All this is a wordy way of saying:1. I think learning some Chinese is a good idea.2. Learning Chinese is a serious study. Three years of Chinese in Chinesemedical school gave me a glimpse, but not an unobstructed view. Chinesemedicinal school is a lot of work. Better to have studied some ChineseBEFORE going to medical school.3. Pinyin is not Chinese. It might allow Americans to talk to each other,but it will not help you to talk to real Chinese speakers.4. I suspect that a lot of the worldview is encoded in the grammar, the wayyou focus and parse experience into thought, thought into meaning. Andmeaning into action.5. Taiwan is really fun sometimes, and the food rocks!Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

And yet to treat a patient, where I consider their problem assomething more something to be 'fixed'. I've yet to work with a personssymptoms in the same way I'd negotiate a deal that saves and gives Face.>>>This one of the resions I have learned very quickly in China not to trust what is said to me about outcomes and I instisted to see clinical charts so that I can check histories and outcomes of patients

Alon

 

-

Michael Max L.Ac

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 8:04 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

This is a most interesting conversation. It brings up many questions thatI've been asking myself.****** warning, this is a long post, you can just skip to the bottom toavoid my rambling **************I have a few thoughts on learning Chinese, especially as it applies topracticing Chinese medicine. I'm currently living Taipei, where I have beenstudying Chinese full time, in an attempt to see if the language really doesilluminate the practice of the medicine. I have more questions than answers,and an assortment of cherished hopes and dreams that now laying rusting andmolding in the damp of Taiwan.I've heard it said that language gives the keys to a culture. It's like awindow into another world. I believe it. In studying Chinese, I'm beginningto see how the grammar forces you into thinking in a certain way. It focusesyour attention, parses experience into a certain rhythm and pattern. While Ican sometimes catch the drift of the grammar, I'm sorry to say that Igenerally think in English. Chinese words, English phrasing. It's afrustration. A little language, for me, has not changed my world view. Itonly makes me realize how limited I've constructed the world.8 months in Asia has certainly given me some firsthand experience with theculture that this medicine grows from. I see it used here in ways that aremore integrated with the culture (of course). You can buy a si wu tang likedrink in the 7/11. It is very common for woman to tonify their blood aftertheir periods, and to know a fair amount about basic formulas. Herb storesare everywhere. People understand that there are certain foods that are hotor cold. Asia has also shown me how arrogant my thinking has been.I thought if I learned something of the language and culture, I could,perhaps, be a better doctor. What I'm finding is that learning about theculture means a lot more than learning a little Chinese. This culture isvast. A little language does not help me to penetrate very far. There areways of doing and thinking here at are wildly different. Little things likeguan xi and 'Face'. I'd heard about them. But, navigating them on a dailybasis. It's like stepping into an Alice in Wonderland world. I come from aculture that places a high value on a person's 'insides' matching their'outsides'. We call it congruency. Here in Taiwan that will not get you veryfar. You have to argue around the issue with a smile. Will this help me tobe a better doctor? I don't know, I've yet master the art of giving andsaving Face. And yet to treat a patient, where I consider their problem assomething more something to be 'fixed'. I've yet to work with a personssymptoms in the same way I'd negotiate a deal that saves and gives Face.I thought being able to read a little medical Chinese, knowing the pinyin ofherbs, and having read some translations of some Chinese classics might giveme a leg up on learning Chinese here. I was so wrong. The first thing Ilearned is that pinyin has very little to do with Chinese. Pinyin is asystem that approximates the sounds of Chinese. But, if you don't learn thetones, AND do it right. Make mistakes and get corrected. Over and again,then you have learned to speak something that is not English, nor is itChinese. I learned this by walking into an herb store and trying to buy afew herbs. I was completely misunderstood. I'm not saying we should not beteaching people to use pinyin, but we should also make it clear that this isNOT Chinese. Unless we want to teach it correctly, which I think will bedifficult, very few Americans know enough pronunciation to teach itcorrectly. I previously thought that knowing a little language would open up the worldof Eastern thought to me. Maybe. But, if it does, I suspect it will takeyears of dedicated study. Not a few months of translating some articles. Isuspect that that is simply Western thought with Chinese words.What tipped me off to this was looking at how Asian's use English. There isa thing here I call Asian English. It is terribly funny. You can see it onbuildings, in advertisements, in the mottoes adorn the scooters here. It iscompletely laughable. The apartment building that says 'Performance ofArchitecture". The scooter that claims, "We reach for the sky, neither doescivilization". The scooter that says, "for the young at heart that want toget away with it all". The menu that says "Baked Chicken Nugget" and "ChessHam Wich". English here is used in ways that are hilarious. But, no one herethinks it is funny. Just us English speakers. I wonder if my grasp of thelittle Chinese I have is as off the mark, as the English I see in Asia. Itcertainly gives me pause to think.More than anything, spending some time in Asia and having my Western ideasabout this place ripped away has been helpful. Being exposed to Asianracism, Asian hospitality, Asian standards of 'cleanliness', Asiangenerosity, the cultural norms, the ways traffic and people flow. The wayspeople connect. All this has given me a deeper appreciation for how people,where ever we are, find solutions to the problems of life.All this is a wordy way of saying:1. I think learning some Chinese is a good idea.2. Learning Chinese is a serious study. Three years of Chinese in Chinesemedical school gave me a glimpse, but not an unobstructed view. Chinesemedicinal school is a lot of work. Better to have studied some ChineseBEFORE going to medical school.3. Pinyin is not Chinese. It might allow Americans to talk to each other,but it will not help you to talk to real Chinese speakers.4. I suspect that a lot of the worldview is encoded in the grammar, the wayyou focus and parse experience into thought, thought into meaning. Andmeaning into action.5. Taiwan is really fun sometimes, and the food rocks!Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

- I previously thought that knowing a little language would open up the worldof Eastern thought to me. Maybe. But, if it does, I suspect it will takeyears of dedicated study. Not a few months of translating some articles. Isuspect that that is simply Western thought with Chinese words.

>>>and that is the why i always come back to priorities and time.

Alon

 

Michael Max L.Ac

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 8:04 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

This is a most interesting conversation. It brings up many questions thatI've been asking myself.****** warning, this is a long post, you can just skip to the bottom toavoid my rambling **************I have a few thoughts on learning Chinese, especially as it applies topracticing Chinese medicine. I'm currently living Taipei, where I have beenstudying Chinese full time, in an attempt to see if the language really doesilluminate the practice of the medicine. I have more questions than answers,and an assortment of cherished hopes and dreams that now laying rusting andmolding in the damp of Taiwan.I've heard it said that language gives the keys to a culture. It's like awindow into another world. I believe it. In studying Chinese, I'm beginningto see how the grammar forces you into thinking in a certain way. It focusesyour attention, parses experience into a certain rhythm and pattern. While Ican sometimes catch the drift of the grammar, I'm sorry to say that Igenerally think in English. Chinese words, English phrasing. It's afrustration. A little language, for me, has not changed my world view. Itonly makes me realize how limited I've constructed the world.8 months in Asia has certainly given me some firsthand experience with theculture that this medicine grows from. I see it used here in ways that aremore integrated with the culture (of course). You can buy a si wu tang likedrink in the 7/11. It is very common for woman to tonify their blood aftertheir periods, and to know a fair amount about basic formulas. Herb storesare everywhere. People understand that there are certain foods that are hotor cold. Asia has also shown me how arrogant my thinking has been.I thought if I learned something of the language and culture, I could,perhaps, be a better doctor. What I'm finding is that learning about theculture means a lot more than learning a little Chinese. This culture isvast. A little language does not help me to penetrate very far. There areways of doing and thinking here at are wildly different. Little things likeguan xi and 'Face'. I'd heard about them. But, navigating them on a dailybasis. It's like stepping into an Alice in Wonderland world. I come from aculture that places a high value on a person's 'insides' matching their'outsides'. We call it congruency. Here in Taiwan that will not get you veryfar. You have to argue around the issue with a smile. Will this help me tobe a better doctor? I don't know, I've yet master the art of giving andsaving Face. And yet to treat a patient, where I consider their problem assomething more something to be 'fixed'. I've yet to work with a personssymptoms in the same way I'd negotiate a deal that saves and gives Face.I thought being able to read a little medical Chinese, knowing the pinyin ofherbs, and having read some translations of some Chinese classics might giveme a leg up on learning Chinese here. I was so wrong. The first thing Ilearned is that pinyin has very little to do with Chinese. Pinyin is asystem that approximates the sounds of Chinese. But, if you don't learn thetones, AND do it right. Make mistakes and get corrected. Over and again,then you have learned to speak something that is not English, nor is itChinese. I learned this by walking into an herb store and trying to buy afew herbs. I was completely misunderstood. I'm not saying we should not beteaching people to use pinyin, but we should also make it clear that this isNOT Chinese. Unless we want to teach it correctly, which I think will bedifficult, very few Americans know enough pronunciation to teach itcorrectly. I previously thought that knowing a little language would open up the worldof Eastern thought to me. Maybe. But, if it does, I suspect it will takeyears of dedicated study. Not a few months of translating some articles. Isuspect that that is simply Western thought with Chinese words.What tipped me off to this was looking at how Asian's use English. There isa thing here I call Asian English. It is terribly funny. You can see it onbuildings, in advertisements, in the mottoes adorn the scooters here. It iscompletely laughable. The apartment building that says 'Performance ofArchitecture". The scooter that claims, "We reach for the sky, neither doescivilization". The scooter that says, "for the young at heart that want toget away with it all". The menu that says "Baked Chicken Nugget" and "ChessHam Wich". English here is used in ways that are hilarious. But, no one herethinks it is funny. Just us English speakers. I wonder if my grasp of thelittle Chinese I have is as off the mark, as the English I see in Asia. Itcertainly gives me pause to think.More than anything, spending some time in Asia and having my Western ideasabout this place ripped away has been helpful. Being exposed to Asianracism, Asian hospitality, Asian standards of 'cleanliness', Asiangenerosity, the cultural norms, the ways traffic and people flow. The wayspeople connect. All this has given me a deeper appreciation for how people,where ever we are, find solutions to the problems of life.All this is a wordy way of saying:1. I think learning some Chinese is a good idea.2. Learning Chinese is a serious study. Three years of Chinese in Chinesemedical school gave me a glimpse, but not an unobstructed view. Chinesemedicinal school is a lot of work. Better to have studied some ChineseBEFORE going to medical school.3. Pinyin is not Chinese. It might allow Americans to talk to each other,but it will not help you to talk to real Chinese speakers.4. I suspect that a lot of the worldview is encoded in the grammar, the wayyou focus and parse experience into thought, thought into meaning. Andmeaning into action.5. Taiwan is really fun sometimes, and the food rocks!Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

More than anything, spending some time in Asia and having my Western ideasabout this place ripped away has been helpful

>>>Try being married to an Asian

Alon

 

-

Michael Max L.Ac

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 8:04 AM

Re: Chinese language requirements

This is a most interesting conversation. It brings up many questions thatI've been asking myself.****** warning, this is a long post, you can just skip to the bottom toavoid my rambling **************I have a few thoughts on learning Chinese, especially as it applies topracticing Chinese medicine. I'm currently living Taipei, where I have beenstudying Chinese full time, in an attempt to see if the language really doesilluminate the practice of the medicine. I have more questions than answers,and an assortment of cherished hopes and dreams that now laying rusting andmolding in the damp of Taiwan.I've heard it said that language gives the keys to a culture. It's like awindow into another world. I believe it. In studying Chinese, I'm beginningto see how the grammar forces you into thinking in a certain way. It focusesyour attention, parses experience into a certain rhythm and pattern. While Ican sometimes catch the drift of the grammar, I'm sorry to say that Igenerally think in English. Chinese words, English phrasing. It's afrustration. A little language, for me, has not changed my world view. Itonly makes me realize how limited I've constructed the world.8 months in Asia has certainly given me some firsthand experience with theculture that this medicine grows from. I see it used here in ways that aremore integrated with the culture (of course). You can buy a si wu tang likedrink in the 7/11. It is very common for woman to tonify their blood aftertheir periods, and to know a fair amount about basic formulas. Herb storesare everywhere. People understand that there are certain foods that are hotor cold. Asia has also shown me how arrogant my thinking has been.I thought if I learned something of the language and culture, I could,perhaps, be a better doctor. What I'm finding is that learning about theculture means a lot more than learning a little Chinese. This culture isvast. A little language does not help me to penetrate very far. There areways of doing and thinking here at are wildly different. Little things likeguan xi and 'Face'. I'd heard about them. But, navigating them on a dailybasis. It's like stepping into an Alice in Wonderland world. I come from aculture that places a high value on a person's 'insides' matching their'outsides'. We call it congruency. Here in Taiwan that will not get you veryfar. You have to argue around the issue with a smile. Will this help me tobe a better doctor? I don't know, I've yet master the art of giving andsaving Face. And yet to treat a patient, where I consider their problem assomething more something to be 'fixed'. I've yet to work with a personssymptoms in the same way I'd negotiate a deal that saves and gives Face.I thought being able to read a little medical Chinese, knowing the pinyin ofherbs, and having read some translations of some Chinese classics might giveme a leg up on learning Chinese here. I was so wrong. The first thing Ilearned is that pinyin has very little to do with Chinese. Pinyin is asystem that approximates the sounds of Chinese. But, if you don't learn thetones, AND do it right. Make mistakes and get corrected. Over and again,then you have learned to speak something that is not English, nor is itChinese. I learned this by walking into an herb store and trying to buy afew herbs. I was completely misunderstood. I'm not saying we should not beteaching people to use pinyin, but we should also make it clear that this isNOT Chinese. Unless we want to teach it correctly, which I think will bedifficult, very few Americans know enough pronunciation to teach itcorrectly. I previously thought that knowing a little language would open up the worldof Eastern thought to me. Maybe. But, if it does, I suspect it will takeyears of dedicated study. Not a few months of translating some articles. Isuspect that that is simply Western thought with Chinese words.What tipped me off to this was looking at how Asian's use English. There isa thing here I call Asian English. It is terribly funny. You can see it onbuildings, in advertisements, in the mottoes adorn the scooters here. It iscompletely laughable. The apartment building that says 'Performance ofArchitecture". The scooter that claims, "We reach for the sky, neither doescivilization". The scooter that says, "for the young at heart that want toget away with it all". The menu that says "Baked Chicken Nugget" and "ChessHam Wich". English here is used in ways that are hilarious. But, no one herethinks it is funny. Just us English speakers. I wonder if my grasp of thelittle Chinese I have is as off the mark, as the English I see in Asia. Itcertainly gives me pause to think.More than anything, spending some time in Asia and having my Western ideasabout this place ripped away has been helpful. Being exposed to Asianracism, Asian hospitality, Asian standards of 'cleanliness', Asiangenerosity, the cultural norms, the ways traffic and people flow. The wayspeople connect. All this has given me a deeper appreciation for how people,where ever we are, find solutions to the problems of life.All this is a wordy way of saying:1. I think learning some Chinese is a good idea.2. Learning Chinese is a serious study. Three years of Chinese in Chinesemedical school gave me a glimpse, but not an unobstructed view. Chinesemedicinal school is a lot of work. Better to have studied some ChineseBEFORE going to medical school.3. Pinyin is not Chinese. It might allow Americans to talk to each other,but it will not help you to talk to real Chinese speakers.4. I suspect that a lot of the worldview is encoded in the grammar, the wayyou focus and parse experience into thought, thought into meaning. Andmeaning into action.5. Taiwan is really fun sometimes, and the food rocks!Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

thanks

 

-

Warren Cargal

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:32 PM

Re: Re: Chinese language requirements

Alon,More information! How bout Amer. J. Acupuncture 1980 thru 1998.forevolution of his work.WarrenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

In the past i would refer some of my knotty diseasepatients over to a group of OMD's who where trained and taught in china.Know what I did not see a significant change.>>>>To me this is the important issue. I would like to this discussed more openly. The rest is by enlarge self-serving

Alon

 

-

Warren Cargal

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:40 PM

Re: Re: Chinese language requirements

Assuming you have grounding in the chinese classics, you are still goingto have problems w/ knotty diseases and i think that is where VanBenschoten work becomes interesting. The assumption that if one wereadequately trained in Li-Zhu medicine, Liu Wan-su's Law of SimilarTransformation, Nan Jing Five Phase theory then other options would notbe needed is weak. In the past i would refer some of my knotty diseasepatients over to a group of OMD's who where trained and taught in china.Know what i did not see a significant change.Be interesting to hear from other practioners how they are doing w/knotty diseases.Warren CargalChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Alon

 

All of benschoten's work is referenced back to herbs, specific articles

that may interest you are: A five year review of HIV w/ Chinese Herbs

(believe that was Amer J. Acu. 1995) and Breast Cancer review w/ Chinese

Herbs Amer. J. Acu 1997 or 98. He also list some great herb research

references from Japan re: pharmological effects.

 

Warren

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 12:40 PM, Warren Cargal wrote:

 

> Assuming you have grounding in the chinese classics, you are still going

> to have problems w/ knotty diseases and i think that is where Van

> Benschoten work becomes interesting.

 

I don't share that judgement. Knotty diseases, are by their nature,

difficult to treat, but to discount the voluminous Chinese literature

(and some good English language texts, such as Bob Flaw's new book on

" Treatment of Western Diseases with " ) on the subject is

overly simplistic.

 

> The assumption that if one were

> adequately trained in Li-Zhu medicine, Liu Wan-su's Law of Similar

> Transformation, Nan Jing Five Phase theory then other options would not

> be needed is weak.

 

And why is that? Classical Chinese medical theory is meant to be

applied in the present, in the clinic, and used creatively. For

example, what I have seen of Mark's prescriptions are a lot of

anti-chong (parasitic) medicinals. Dr. Li's yin fire theory speaks much

of chong diseases, and Dr. Zhu Dan-xi's work about gu zhang, drum

distention. One could easily apply modern treatments, such as diets

that minimize yeast, to treat candida, which can easily be reframed in a

CM context.

 

> In the past i would refer some of my knotty disease

> patients over to a group of OMD's who where trained and taught in china.

> Know what i did not see a significant change.

 

How are we supposed to measure if these OMD's were trained in Li-Zhu or

five phase theory? Or which knotty diseases were treated? Or what a

satisfactory outcome was? Please give some examples.

 

I don't feel comfortable critiquing Mark's clinical approach in a public

forum, and I do find his work quite interesting and worthy of respect.

He has helped a lot of people with his medicine.

 

I do feel comfortable debating his remarks at the recent Pacific

Symposium, where he basically stated that classical approaches to herbal

medicine in China don't work for modern patients. I don't think that is

correct, and there is a vast body of literature and case histories to

prove it.

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

Warren,

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Bob

 

, Warren Cargal <wcargal9@b...> wrote:

> Bob,

>

> Matt VanBenschoten argues that knotty diseases seem to respond

better to

> chinese herbs based on a pharmacological approach. I would be

surprised

> if he was making a blanket statement about the whole system.

>

> Warren

[Guest guest]

Dan,

 

When I've suggested in other venues that our education might be better

served in the university system, others have criticized that system as

being rife with politics and bureaucracy. Not being within that system

myself, I can't argue with that criticism. However, I would very much

like to hear what lese you feel is inherently inimical to Chinese

medical education.

 

Bob

 

, " dfbensky " <dbensky@e...> wrote:

> Well, this list is a busy place! Let's see if I can reply to

> everyone

> in one message as they are somewhat related:

>

> Alon asked about particulars as to how even a smattering of

> Chinese helps students learn Chinese medicine.

> I'll give a couple of examples off the top of my head:

>

> 1) There are at least a few important words that as far as I can

> tell are impossible to translate well. If the students learn these

> words and what they mean, the Chinese can be used in clinical

> discussions enabling everyone to " cut to the chase. " One

> example of this is tong1 " unblocked, free-flowing, free, unstop,

> etc. " There are many other examples.

>

> 2) Chinese is a culture of context and relationships and

> harmony. I think the emphasis on these is one of the hallmarks

> of the medicine. Studying any aspect of Chinese language

> brings this out very, very clearly. For example, in classical

> Chinese, many verbs are about a relationship rather than the

> linear direction of that relationship (which is determined by

> context). Examples are that the same word can mean " give " or

> " receive; " another word can mean " to present from a

> superior to

> an inferior " or " to present from an inferior to a

> superior. " This,

> along with the parallelism that is inherent in the language, helps

> people understand such concepts as the interrelationships of

> the five phases.

>

> Ken asked a couple of questions:

> 1) Is the change in our requirements a lessening of the Chinese

> language instruction?

>

> No. We are continuing the same amount of instruction in the

> school's curriculum. Now that as of next fall all incoming

> students will have at least one semester of Chinese before

> coming here, we expect that we will be able to cover significantly

> more material and have better outcomes. If there is something

> that I wrote that gave you the opposite impression, please point it

> out to me so that I can correct it.

>

> 2) How could I say that Chinese in not requisite for successful

> practice [Todd's paraphrase] yet have it as a prerequisite for

> our

> school?

>

> I found this an interesting question, though not one that made

> immediate sense to me. One has to do with the way things are;

> the other with the way I want to do things. The number of

> thoughtful successful practitioners just on this list who read no

> East Asian language are obvious evidence that one can get

> along without this skill. Practicing medicine is such a humbling

> experience that it has taught even someone like me that it is

> hubris to think anyone really knows what it takes to do it well.

>

> On the other hand, when Paul Karsten (who is the educational

> specialist behind our school - I am just along for the ride) and I

> started thinking about starting SIOM many years ago, it was just

> as obvious to me that without a language component it just

> would not be worth my while to be involved in the school. I think a

> decent analogy is that while there are good cooks who only have

> one arm and brilliant rock climbers who are blind, it is easier to

> cook with two arms and rock climb if you can see.

>

> This gets back to our mission and goals. In the simplest terms,

> we have been trying to provide the students with the right

> dynamic, to set them off on a good trajectory so that with the

> tools that they have learned from us, the experience that their

> patients give them, and the further learning they will get in post-

> graduate seminars, they will continue to grow as practitioners

> and deepen their understanding of the medicine. It is way too

> soon to tell if we have been successful.

>

> Finally, while it may appear to be self-serving, I have to take

> exception to some of Bob Flaws' remarks about future pathways

> of education. While clearly he and I agree on much in this regard,

> I am afraid that I don't think that university-based education

> will

> be the salvation of our field here. The reason is that the

industrial

> model of education has its own dynamics and culture and shi4

> [propensities/inclinations/forces]; to me most of these are

> inimical to the study of Chinese medicine.

>

> Dan

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I would argue that strong systematic approach which characterizes

Dan's school is largely a function of the Chinese language and that it

is Dan and the other teachers' knowledge of the system

which allows them to appreciate and communicate effectively that

system.

 

Bob

 

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> 1. While Mark VanBenschoten has

> recently argued that Chinese medical theory is not necessary to

> prescribe Chinese meds, I still think it is the most useful system

for

> their prescription,

>

>

> >>>>I think here we have to distinguish between out-comes and

practicing TCM. If he can show me better outcomes, then I would say

that knowing pharmacology of herbs that have their roots in China is

better than using TCM. However, it is not doing Traditional Chinese

medicine it is doing modern herbal medicine

>

> 2. In addition, I have been

> impressed (specifically with their herbal expertise) with the

> graduates of Dan's school who have moved to Boulder fresh after

> graduation compared to recent graduates of other schools.

>

> >>>>I would be very surprised if knowing Chinese has a major part of

their ability. From what I have heard of Dan's school follows very

high standards and a system oriented teaching which has a strong

clinical value.

> Alon

>

>

>

>

> -

> pemachophel2001

>

> Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:01 AM

> Re: Chinese language requirements

>

>

>

>

> Perhaps the utility of reading Chinese has something to do with

> whether one is primarily doing acupuncture or primarily

prescribing

> internal meds. Personally, since I don't think Chinese medical

theory

> is absolutely necessary for getting results with acupuncture, I

don't

> feel as strongly that acupuncturists need to read Chinese. I

> feel the same way about tuina. However, I feel quite differently

about

> the prescription of Chinese meds. While Mark VanBenschoten has

> recently argued that Chinese medical theory is not necessary to

> prescribe Chinese meds, I still think it is the most useful system

for

> their prescription, and it is my experience that understanding the

> Chinese language and having access to the Chinese literature makes

a

> large difference in understanding and, therefore, applying this

system

> in clinical practice.

>

> I've seen plenty of acupuncturists get good results who did not

have

> access to the Chinese literature (or much of any literature, for

that

> matter). However, most of the really good prescribers of Chinese

meds

> I know have at least some access to the Chinese literature.

Further,

> as a teacher, I've seen a marked increase in students' ability to

> practice internal Chinese medicine concomitant with their

increased

> ability to access the Chinese literature. In addition, I have been

> impressed (specifically with their herbal expertise) with the

> graduates of Dan's school who have moved to Boulder fresh after

> graduation compared to recent graduates of other schools.

>

> I agree with Dan that one does not have to read Chinese to be a

good

> practitioner. There are many factors that go to making a good

> practitioner, and I think it is important that we recognize that

some

> of those factors differ between acupuncture and Chinese herbalism.

 

> When it comes to prescribing Chinese medicinals, I think reading

> Chinese makes a big difference in really grokking the system.

>

> Bob

>

> , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...>

wrote:

> > > Dan,

> > >

> > > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing

> > > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice

> > >

> > > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is

> > > a prerequisite at Dan's school.

> >

> > I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, but that he knows

plenty

> of

> > px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps

there

> are

> > those who are able to discern the patterns and principles

despite

> this

> > lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that

quality?

> I

> > have no idea.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " dfbensky " <dbensky@e...> wrote:

 

>

> 1) There are at least a few important words that as far as I can

> tell are impossible to translate well. If the students learn these

> words and what they mean, the Chinese can be used in clinical

> discussions enabling everyone to " cut to the chase. " One

> example of this is tong1 " unblocked, free-flowing, free, unstop,

> etc. " There are many other examples.

 

this is a good example of what I alluded to before. being familiar

with technical terms and their meanings to a chinese reader reveals a

lot about the nuances of the medicine. I think this is essential.

However, this is a far cry from being able to pick up a book and read

it. Accomplishing the former is vital and really not so difficult.

Accomplishing the latter seems a quantum leap to me, one which I am

sure has its own rewards, as well. Does everyone who wants to be

competent at internal medicine need to make this final leap? that is

the question. While I know we cannot extrapolate from anecdotes, my

own practice seems to support the idea that one can be successful

without making this leap. could I be more successful? Perhaps. Would

the incremental gain in clinical success be worth the effort? I don't

know. I also think it is interesting that clinical research in TCM

shows such a high rate of effectiveness even when using very formulaic

methods that clearly require no thought at all on the part of the px.

It is probably in extremely knotty diseases that one truly sees the

difference between those with access to sources and those who do not.

Maybe that is why Benschoten takes a pharmacological approach. Not

being able to penetrate the finest nuances of TCM, he tackles the

nuances of pharmacology instead. Perhaps this is why integrative med

appeals to me, as well. I know Bob Flaws has written elsewhere that he

only immersed himself fully into chinese studies when he stopped

practicing integrative medicine that incorporated naturopathic methods.

Yet he apparently had great success in this approach and his books in

the late eighties reflect this methodology (excuse me if I have

mistated any of this; feel free to correct)

 

[Guest guest]

Dan,

 

 

> Ken asked a couple of questions:

> 1) Is the change in our requirements a lessening of the Chinese

> language instruction?

>

> No. We are continuing the same amount of instruction in the

> school's curriculum. Now that as of next fall all incoming

> students will have at least one semester of Chinese before

> coming here, we expect that we will be able to cover significantly

> more material and have better outcomes. If there is something

> that I wrote that gave you the opposite impression, please point it

> out to me so that I can correct it.

 

No. I just got confused as to whether the

requirement for a semester of college level

Chinese replaced the other language related

parts of the curriculum or was, as you have

now clarified it to be, being added as a

prerequisite to it. Thanks for clarifying it.

 

Again, I find it to be an enlightened step

and I hope that other schools will see that

it is in everyone's best interest to follow.

>

> 2) How could I say that Chinese in not requisite for successful

> practice [Todd's paraphrase] yet have it as a prerequisite for

> our

> school?

>

> I found this an interesting question, though not one that made

> immediate sense to me. One has to do with the way things are;

> the other with the way I want to do things. The number of

> thoughtful successful practitioners just on this list who read no

> East Asian language are obvious evidence that one can get

> along without this skill. Practicing medicine is such a humbling

> experience that it has taught even someone like me that it is

> hubris to think anyone really knows what it takes to do it well.

>

> On the other hand, when Paul Karsten (who is the educational

> specialist behind our school - I am just along for the ride) and I

> started thinking about starting SIOM many years ago, it was just

> as obvious to me that without a language component it just

> would not be worth my while to be involved in the school. I think a

> decent analogy is that while there are good cooks who only have

> one arm and brilliant rock climbers who are blind, it is easier to

> cook with two arms and rock climb if you can see.

 

This, I believe comes right to the point of

the current " debate " which takes on the curious

characteristics of a conversation in which

sighted and blind argue which is better.

 

 

> This gets back to our mission and goals. In the simplest terms,

> we have been trying to provide the students with the right

> dynamic, to set them off on a good trajectory so that with the

> tools that they have learned from us, the experience that their

> patients give them, and the further learning they will get in post-

> graduate seminars, they will continue to grow as practitioners

> and deepen their understanding of the medicine. It is way too

> soon to tell if we have been successful.

 

Understood. In the end, all we can do is to

conduct ourselves after the fasion of what

was successful in our own educational experiences.

 

It dawns on me that all I'm really saying

about this whole subject is that whatever

understanding and skill I have been able

to develop appears to me to have come from

studying in certain ways both in the States

and here in China with various teachers.

 

As I've written about at some length, I've

concluded that familiarity with the language

lies at the roots of the study. Coincidentally,

my wife and I picked up a new dictionary here

just yesterday which begins with a statement

from the authors that expresses the same

conclusion.

 

This is a dictionary written for Chinese

students. When I get home this afternoon

I'll put up a brief translation of this

statement along with the citation on this

rather useful little book.

 

Here in China there is really

no question about whether or not one needs

to understand the language of Chinese medicine

in order to study the subject. As I'm sure

there was no question in Macau when you

studied there.

 

Thanks, again, for the clarifications.

 

If you have time, I'd still like to understand

better your sentiments about translation

standards.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

thanks

 

-

Warren Cargal

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 3:32 PM

Re: Re: Chinese language requirements

AlonAll of benschoten's work is referenced back to herbs, specific articlesthat may interest you are: A five year review of HIV w/ Chinese Herbs(believe that was Amer J. Acu. 1995) and Breast Cancer review w/ ChineseHerbs Amer. J. Acu 1997 or 98. He also list some great herb researchreferences from Japan re: pharmological effects.WarrenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

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and there is a vast body of literature

>>>Again the question is reliability

Alon

 

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Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:10 PM

Re: Re: Chinese language requirements

On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 12:40 PM, Warren Cargal wrote:

Assuming you have grounding in the chinese classics, you are still goingto have problems w/ knotty diseases and i think that is where VanBenschoten work becomes interesting.I don't share that judgement. Knotty diseases, are by their nature, difficult to treat, but to discount the voluminous Chinese literature (and some good English language texts, such as Bob Flaw's new book on "Treatment of Western Diseases with ") on the subject is overly simplistic.

The assumption that if one wereadequately trained in Li-Zhu medicine, Liu Wan-su's Law of SimilarTransformation, Nan Jing Five Phase theory then other options would notbe needed is weak.And why is that? Classical Chinese medical theory is meant to be applied in the present, in the clinic, and used creatively. For example, what I have seen of Mark's prescriptions are a lot of anti-chong (parasitic) medicinals. Dr. Li's yin fire theory speaks much of chong diseases, and Dr. Zhu Dan-xi's work about gu zhang, drum distention. One could easily apply modern treatments, such as diets that minimize yeast, to treat candida, which can easily be reframed in a CM context.

In the past i would refer some of my knotty diseasepatients over to a group of OMD's who where trained and taught in china.Know what i did not see a significant change.How are we supposed to measure if these OMD's were trained in Li-Zhu or five phase theory? Or which knotty diseases were treated? Or what a satisfactory outcome was? Please give some examples.I don't feel comfortable critiquing Mark's clinical approach in a public forum, and I do find his work quite interesting and worthy of respect. He has helped a lot of people with his medicine.I do feel comfortable debating his remarks at the recent Pacific Symposium, where he basically stated that classical approaches to herbal medicine in China don't work for modern patients. I don't think that is correct, and there is a vast body of literature and case histories to prove it.

[Guest guest]

I would argue that strong systematic approach which characterizes Dan's school is largely a function of the Chinese language and that it is Dan and the other teachers' knowledge of the system which allows them to appreciate and communicate effectively that system.>>>>I am not sure if you understand what a systems approach is, usually done is some western med schools, but no agument here about haveing good teachers. I am still unsure though about the obsolute need for Chinese, but i am sure it is a great asset to have.

Alon

Alon

 

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pemachophel2001

Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:36 PM

Re: Chinese language requirements

Alon,I would argue that strong systematic approach which characterizes Dan's school is largely a function of the Chinese language and that it is Dan and the other teachers' knowledge of the system which allows them to appreciate and communicate effectively that system.Bob, "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> 1. While Mark VanBenschoten has > recently argued that Chinese medical theory is not necessary to > prescribe Chinese meds, I still think it is the most useful system for > their prescription,> > > >>>>I think here we have to distinguish between out-comes and practicing TCM. If he can show me better outcomes, then I would say that knowing pharmacology of herbs that have their roots in China is better than using TCM. However, it is not doing Traditional Chinese medicine it is doing modern herbal medicine> > 2. In addition, I have been > impressed (specifically with their herbal expertise) with the > graduates of Dan's school who have moved to Boulder fresh after > graduation compared to recent graduates of other schools.> > >>>>I would be very surprised if knowing Chinese has a major part of their ability. From what I have heard of Dan's school follows very high standards and a system oriented teaching which has a strong clinical value.> Alon> > > > > - > pemachophel2001 > > Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:01 AM> Re: Chinese language requirements> > > > > Perhaps the utility of reading Chinese has something to do with > whether one is primarily doing acupuncture or primarily prescribing > internal meds. Personally, since I don't think Chinese medical theory > is absolutely necessary for getting results with acupuncture, I don't > feel as strongly that acupuncturists need to read Chinese. I > feel the same way about tuina. However, I feel quite differently about > the prescription of Chinese meds. While Mark VanBenschoten has > recently argued that Chinese medical theory is not necessary to > prescribe Chinese meds, I still think it is the most useful system for > their prescription, and it is my experience that understanding the > Chinese language and having access to the Chinese literature makes a > large difference in understanding and, therefore, applying this system > in clinical practice.> > I've seen plenty of acupuncturists get good results who did not have > access to the Chinese literature (or much of any literature, for that > matter). However, most of the really good prescribers of Chinese meds > I know have at least some access to the Chinese literature. Further, > as a teacher, I've seen a marked increase in students' ability to > practice internal Chinese medicine concomitant with their increased > ability to access the Chinese literature. In addition, I have been > impressed (specifically with their herbal expertise) with the > graduates of Dan's school who have moved to Boulder fresh after > graduation compared to recent graduates of other schools.> > I agree with Dan that one does not have to read Chinese to be a good > practitioner. There are many factors that go to making a good > practitioner, and I think it is important that we recognize that some > of those factors differ between acupuncture and Chinese herbalism. > When it comes to prescribing Chinese medicinals, I think reading > Chinese makes a big difference in really grokking the system.> > Bob> > , "1" <@i...> wrote:> > , "dragon90405" <yulong@m...> wrote:> > > Dan,> > > > > > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing > > > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice> > > > > > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is> > > a prerequisite at Dan's school.> > > > I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, but that he knows plenty > of > > px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps there > are > > those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite > this > > lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? > I > > have no idea. > > > > > >

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Todd

 

Accomplishing the former is vital and really not so difficult.

 

>>>I know (or more accurately knew) many characters, may be my mistake was not studying their radical brake down, so I still cant see the great value. Perhaps if I had a more in-depth insight into them I would. But even if I did, I believe I would still have to filter them through my set of linguistics to make sense for my self. And this I would think, can be done in English with good explanation of terms

Alon

 

 

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Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:17 PM

Re: Chinese language requirements

, "dfbensky" <dbensky@e...> wrote:> > 1) There are at least a few important words that as far as I can > tell are impossible to translate well. If the students learn these > words and what they mean, the Chinese can be used in clinical > discussions enabling everyone to "cut to the chase." One > example of this is tong1 " unblocked, free-flowing, free, unstop, > etc." There are many other examples.this is a good example of what I alluded to before. being familiar with technical terms and their meanings to a chinese reader reveals a lot about the nuances of the medicine. I think this is essential. However, this is a far cry from being able to pick up a book and read it. Accomplishing the former is vital and really not so difficult. Accomplishing the latter seems a quantum leap to me, one which I am sure has its own rewards, as well. Does everyone who wants to be competent at internal medicine need to make this final leap? that is the question. While I know we cannot extrapolate from anecdotes, my own practice seems to support the idea that one can be successful without making this leap. could I be more successful? Perhaps. Would the incremental gain in clinical success be worth the effort? I don't know. I also think it is interesting that clinical research in TCM shows such a high rate of effectiveness even when using very formulaic methods that clearly require no thought at all on the part of the px. It is probably in extremely knotty diseases that one truly sees the difference between those with access to sources and those who do not. Maybe that is why Benschoten takes a pharmacological approach. Not being able to penetrate the finest nuances of TCM, he tackles the nuances of pharmacology instead. Perhaps this is why integrative med appeals to me, as well. I know Bob Flaws has written elsewhere that he only immersed himself fully into chinese studies when he stopped practicing integrative medicine that incorporated naturopathic methods. Yet he apparently had great success in this approach and his books in the late eighties reflect this methodology (excuse me if I have mistated any of this; feel free to correct)ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.