Devotee trades up

[Beggar 0]

 

I knew him in his brahmacari days (his name was Dvarakesa das) and he was indeed a very sweet devotee. Led great kirtans. Hungarian devotees loved him because he was the one who helped them the most to become Krsna conscious. Later he became Bhakti Dayal Swami and had some serious fall out with Harikesa. Some say his accident was no accident at all but a whack job Harikesa ordered.

 

He got the 'Dayal' name from Harikesa and the 'Narayana' name from Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

[theist 1]

 

Anyway Prabhus, unfortunately even a blind sentimentalist like me can see that Kulapavana is a lost cause, and as I have knocked the stuffing out of him, he doesn't even make a good punching bag anymore. Been there done that.

 

It would be nice to use this Forum to discuss some serious ideas on how those who have Faith that Srila Prabhupada's instructions for organized Sankirtana/Sadhu Sanga can be practically implemented.

 

Of the few who post here that I believe might actually think this could be done, by some miracle, being behind the 8 ball, having lost all his properties, etc, I think I am junior by age.

 

So how about some propositions from some of the Seniors? Start a new thread maybe with your ideas?

 

In otherwords, I would invite you where I live now for Kirtana and Prasadam if I could. But I can't. I am living anonymously in a closet with no money, but hey free internet access, a tape player to listen to Srila Prabhupada, His Books and a Japa bag. All a growing Bhakta needs right?

 

Hare Krsna

 

You want to start a program based around Srila Prabhupada. No problem. Just act constantly in some capacity and Krishna will arrange it. Have faith and Krishna will bring the increase.

 

 

I heard a story that is very illustrative in this way. True or not the lesson is there.

 

 

One very advanced individual who decided to work separately from Iskcon while maintaining his connection with Srila Prabhupada just left Iskcon Hawaii one day and went to another island. Once there he collected a coconut, opened it and offered it to Krishna and then distribted it to others as prasadam. Krishna has blessed him greatly with expanded service oppurtunities.

 

 

Not to mention the voyage of the Jaladhuta.

[andy108 0]

 

You want to start a program based around Srila Prabhupada. No problem. Just act constantly in some capacity and Krishna will arrange it. Have faith and Krishna will bring the increase.

 

I heard a story that is very illustrative in this way. True or not the lesson is there.

 

One very advanced individual who decided to work separately from Iskcon while maintaining his connection with Srila Prabhupada just left Iskcon Hawaii one day and went to another island. Once there he collected a coconut, opened it and offered it to Krishna and then distribted it to others as prasadam. Krishna has blessed him greatly with expanded service oppurtunities.

 

Not to mention the voyage of the Jaladhuta.

 

No I want to become part of a gathering of a group of older disciples who are faithful that it is best to come together and follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions for how to execute Harinama Sankirtana in an organized fashion through forming a transcendental institution according to his specific blueprint.

 

As opposed to imagining that I am personally going to sit under a tree in a New Jersey suburban park and offer leaves to Krsna and he will make me some kind of Krpa-Siddha Acarya.

 

Or that everyone who ever uttered the Holy Names should be considered a pure offenseless Shake and Bake Diksa Guru.

 

Or that I can go to "Swami" Tripurari, who left Srila Prabhupada's Siksa in the dust, and that he will help me fulfill Srila Prabhupada's specific Iskcon mission.

[theist 1]

 

As opposed to imagining that I ampersonally going to sit under a tree in a New Jersey suburban park andoffer leaves to Krsna and he will make me some kind of Krpa-SiddhaAcarya.

 

Who suggested anything about imagining? You make light of what I said because you don't understand it.

 

If you were so serious about this desire Krishna would have or will soon arrange it.

 

Perhaps you like being alone and feeling a little disgruntled, a feeling not unknown to myself.

 

You want to go behind playing mind games with others and that is good. But first we have to stop the mind games we play with ourselves.

[Sonic Yogi 0]

 

Good choices. I'm not sure these two devotees can be called 'many' but at least you did not dodge the question and named truly qualified gurus among Prabhupada's disciples.

 

I think there are many.

I just have my favorites and I am not going to make a long list.

 

However, most all my favorite devotees are outside ISKCON.

 

Within ISKCON there is too much politics and too many bad opinions about some really advanced Vaishnavas outside ISKCON.

 

I would never recommend ISKCON to anyone.

 

That is sad to say.

But, ISKCON is almost wholesale sold out to special interest Swamis and gurus.

It's a club now, not a society of devotees.

[stonehearted 0]

Most devotees I know have for a very long time recognized that what Srila Prabhupada did in the spring of '77 and in that much-touted July 9 letter was to formalize the system he had been using, and by implication to give those he named the opportunity to lead the rest of us in becoming the gurus he indicated consistently he expected us to become. Most of us have long known he did not appoint any successor gurus.

 

Despite all that has occurred since (and in some cases because of all that has occurred since), many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples, some inside ISKCON and some outside, seem to me to be qualified to guide others in their spiritual lives. The main thing is not to argue over one point or another, but to develop the sense of saranagati, in all six aspects, that favors the cultivation of faith in the order of Mahaprabhu and the spiritual master. That means we need to find the best association we can and, in that good company, dedicate ourselves to sharing our faith with whomever we encounter. We must each serve to the best of our capacity according to our circumstances.

[Sonic Yogi 0]

ISKCON with a GBC is not structured properly for working with a multiplicity of gurus.

A GBC is a governing body constructed by the acharya to work under his authority.

 

Having a GBC administrating over a multitude of acharyas is nothing less that absurd.

 

The GBC works under the acharya.

They do not work OVER a hundred acharyas.

 

So, ISKCON was destined for ruination.

 

The whole GBC system trying to govern a hundred acharyas is perhaps the greatest absurdity since the creation of the prakrita sahajiya cults.

[stonehearted 0]

I think their big problem is confusion about the issue of control. The GBC isn't meant to control other devotees, much less those who have some disciples. It's supposed to guide others to help maintain some standards of behavior among the members so they can make spiritual progress. And gurus are supposed to guide, not control (in any heavy-handed sense, at least) their disciples. I don't see anything about controlling others either in Srila Prabhupada's seven purposes for forming ISKCON or in his instructions to the GBC. So it's a mess.

[Sonic Yogi 0]

In the final days of Prabhupada nobody from the GBC inquired how the GBC would relate with gurus and a multitude acharyas in ISKCON.

 

Srila Prabhupada never issued even a simple instruction on how the GBC should relate with successor acharyas in ISKCON.

 

The absence of any talk or discussion on the part of the GBC or Srila Prabhupada regarding the matter seems to preclude the idea that any such situation was ever supposed to arise in ISKCON.

 

Seems like a very important matter; how the GBC would relate with gurus in ISKCON.

 

The lack of such instruction from Srila Prabbhupada is very telling.

[andy108 0]

 

Who suggested anything about imagining? You make light of what I said because you don't understand it.

 

Well, if you understood it, you would embody it, so this is a case of your imagination only. Do what I say (imagine), not what I do or have done.

It is a nice day dream, but that is all it is.

 

 

If you were so serious about this desire Krishna would have or will soon arrange it.

Serious enough to search to see if there are any others who actually have faith in Srila Prabhupada's program and haven't given up on it because a bunch of rascals weren't sincere or capable enough to do it justice. That seeking is part of Krsna arranging it I would say.

 

 

Perhaps you like being alone and feeling a little disgruntled, a feeling not unknown to myself.

Oh, yes being alone and feeling disappointed in my and others impotence is just what I enjoy. It is so yummy I don't even need desert.

 

 

You want to go behind playing mind games with others and that is good. But first we have to stop the mind games we play with ourselves.

 

"Go behind playing mind games?" Whatever that means. I can use my intellect to articulate and dissect the sophistry of offensive Acarya-wannabees and don't feel an ounce of guilt or shame about it. Keeps me sharp as I age.

 

Of course I beat my mind with imaginary shoes all the time, I guess that is some sort of game.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

The main thing is not to argue over one point or another, but to develop the sense of saranagati, in all six aspects, that favors the cultivation of faith in the order of Mahaprabhu and the spiritual master. That means we need to find the best association we can and, in that good company, dedicate ourselves to sharing our faith with whomever we encounter. We must each serve to the best of our capacity according to our circumstances.

 

Very wise words indeed.

[andy108 0]

 

what Srila Prabhupada did in the spring of '77 and in that much-touted July 9 letter was to formalize the system he had been using, and by implication to give those he named the opportunity to lead the rest of us in becoming the gurus he indicated consistently he expected us to become.

Well put. Too bad noone took him up on his offer.

 

 

Most of us have long known he did not appoint any successor gurus.

How many are most anyway? I ask because I haven't heard much in the way of ANYONE challenging the nonsense in Iskcon temples, during class or otherwise. Why the media blackout? Speaking/Meal tickets are that important?

 

 

Despite all that has occurred since (and in some cases because of all that has occurred since), many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples, some inside ISKCON and some outside, seem to me to be qualified to guide others in their spiritual lives.

 

Many INSIDE ISKCON? Hello? the first qualification in guiding others in their spiritual lives is to speak the truth, and encourage them to do the same. If one is not allowed to speak the truth on an Iskcon property, it only stands to reason that no one can engage in Spiritual activity there. Wow, open up a Gita and get straight with it.

 

Sarangati begins with Surrender to the order of the Spiritual Master. One progresses no futher unless that is there. If one cannot speak the truth regarding the Spiritual Master's order, one is in very bad association.

[theist 1]

Andy,

 

It must be hard being the only sincere seeker around. I feel for you bro.

[theist 1]

 

Most of us have long known he did not appoint any successor gurus.

 

I knew since 77 along with many others. It appears andy is only just now figuring it out. Most be a youngster.

[stonehearted 0]

 

Well put. Too bad noone took him up on his offer.

I've said that many times over the last 32 years.

 

 

 

How many are most anyway? I ask because I haven't heard much in the way of ANYONE challenging the nonsense in Iskcon temples, during class or otherwise. Why the media blackout? Speaking/Meal tickets are that important?

The antecedent, the opening phrase of the post to which you're responding, was "most of those I know." I'm not a big ISKCON guy, so I haven't been around as much as some folks. I'm a small man who has spent most of the last 20-odd years making a living teaching at public universities and colleges, not a world traveler. When I eat prasadam at a temple, I pay, and I only speak when I'm asked. That's not as often as it used to be. I never seek to give class. But then I spent many years living on the Big Island, where there's no ISKCON temple, and I've developed a habit of speaking according to guru, sadhu, and sastra (I actually did so even before that). How about you? Too good to take sadhu sanga?

 

 

Many INSIDE ISKCON? Hello? the first qualification in guiding others in their spiritual lives is to speak the truth, and encourage them to do the same. If one is not allowed to speak the truth on an Iskcon property, it only stands to reason that no one can engage in Spiritual activity there. Wow, open up a Gita and get straight with it.

Been doing that for some time, dear friend. And some people have figured out how how to speak honestly in way that doesn't force them to hide in spider holes. Just because some people don't respond to the situation exactly as you'd like doesn't make them all evil, or even wrong.

 

 

Sarangati begins with Surrender to the order of the Spiritual Master. One progresses no futher unless that is there.

Oh, you've read our books, have you? Don't stop.

 

If one cannot speak the truth regarding the Spiritual Master's order, one is in very bad association.

Perhaps my experience over the last 40 years is rather different from yours. I began the process of surrender in 1969 and have done considerable service over the years. When I found the association of the corporate types, I made space between them and myself. Did it in '73, again in '75 (when my wife and I moved from Honolulu to the Big Island), and again in January of '86, when I gave up my service and left ISKCON. I have a track record. Ask anyone who knows me.

 

If you want to argue and posture, you might find it more satisfying to try to engage someone else, like Kulapavana. I'm bored, and I don't see anything to argue with here. This thread was about Krishna-kirti, and after you trashed his motives, as you read them, he seems pretty much to have been forgotten. This thread seems to have become about you and Kula, so I'll leave you to your entertainment. Got other stuff to do.

[stonehearted 0]

 

Andy,

 

It must be hard being the only sincere seeker around. I feel for you bro.

 

I guess one question someone who cares might ask him is , how many folks are at least as sincere as he is. (I have a long list.)

[stonehearted 0]

 

It appears andy is only just now figuring it out. Most be a youngster.

You may be right. The thing is, he has some appreciation for Srila Prabhupada's mercy, and that's pretty cool. He probably just needs good association. We all seem happier when we can associate with devotees we trust.

 

Anyway, I doubt I'll play in this thread any more. Too boring. It's not about me.

[theist 1]

 

Anyway, I doubt I'll play in this thread any more. Too boring. It's not about me.

 

 

me too. This thread has long outlived it's intended lifespan anyway. It's usually the case that if a thread makes it intact to the second page then that is rare. make one's point on the first page and then let it go seems to work best.