Kulapavana Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 FALSE: "Kanisthas are certainly conditioned souls." There are pure neophytes. See Caitanya Caritamrta for examples. LOL@ 'liberated soul' kanisthas WHAT are they liberated from? They are conditioned by their impurities, plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 In sum there's a real heavy confusion going on and to say a neophyte can become a diksa-guru, but this neophyte diksa-guru has to be worshiped like a mahabhagavat pure devotee is wrong. For this people don't need the Vaishnavas. It is far better for them to remain Christians and when they can manage to give up meat eating they are better off than anyone else of the neophyte diksa guru idea. This confusion is the result of not relying on shastra, tradition, and common sense. When you see a guru who is clearly eager for fame, profit and distinction - he is obviously not liberated. Yet for some people even such an imperfect guru can be a good teacher and an inspiration for serving Krsna. I see that happen every day. So instead of sneering at such a guru at every opportune moment, we should show some restraint. That is my point regarding Hridayananda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 ... we should show some restraint. That is my point regarding Hridayananda. Good point! The lynch mob may be angry as hell and the criminal quite guilty or maybe even innocent. That's why the members of the lynch mob should take a look at themselves. Judge not lest you be judged. Were we searching for God and the Truth when we joined or found out about Krsna Consciousness or to become a member of a lynch mob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Good point! The lynch mob may be angry as hell and the criminal quite guilty or maybe even innocent. There is no lynch mob - it is your own feeling of guilt. You did so many wrongs then at one point you feel there's a lynch mob. If there's a lynch mob, this is rather serving justice. But because you have so much to answer for, you see plain justice as lynch mob. Lynch mob, you got all worked up about something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 He is clearing trying to misdirect Srila Prabhupada's flock. When some sheep sees the wolf in sheep's clothing doing mischief they should sound the alarm to warn the other sheep. That is not a lynch mob mentality. Those that demand silence among the sheep become collaboraters with the wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy108 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 LOL@ 'liberated soul' kanisthas WHAT are they liberated from? They are conditioned by their impurities, plain and simple. Fine, I will do your homework for you. Generally the truth is as stated in this purport. Madhya 24.277 : PURPORT Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī devotees cannot turn others into Vaiṣṇavas The exception that you mentioned from Nectar of Devotion 5, the subject under discussion, is only possible under the condition the Kanistha is a pure devotee. And how are they pure? They, although kanistha, have come to the stage of offenseless chanting. Your "LOL" not withstanding, here are the relevant passages. CC Adi 7.51 Although a kaniṣṭha-adhikārī also cannot tolerate such blasphemy, he is not competent to stop it by citing śāstric evidences. Therefore Tapana Miśra and Candraśekhara are understood to be kaniṣṭha-adhikārīs because they could not refute the arguments of the sannyāsīs in Benares. They appealed to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu to take action, for they felt that they could not tolerate such criticism although they also could not stop it.. CC Adi 7.52 : PURPORT : Because the blasphemy was cast against Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself, He did not feel sorry, and therefore He was smiling. This is ideal Vaiṣṇava behavior. One should not become angry upon hearing criticism of himself, but if other Vaiṣṇavas are criticized one must be prepared to act as previously suggested. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very compassionate for His pure devotees Tapana Miśra and Candraśekhara; therefore by His grace this brāhmaṇa immediately came to Him. By His omnipotency the Lord created this situation for the happiness of His devotees. Madhya 15.111 : PURPORT : In his Upadeśāmṛta, Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī states: kṛṣṇeti yasya giri taṁ manasādriyeta dīkṣāsti cet. An advanced devotee should respect a person who has been initiated by a bona fide spiritual master and who is situated on the transcendental platform, chanting the holy name with faith and obeisances and following the instructions of the spiritual master. Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura comments that serving Vaiṣṇavas is most important for householders. Whether a Vaiṣṇava is properly initiated or not is not a subject for consideration. One may be initiated and yet contaminated by the Māyāvāda philosophy, but a person who chants the holy name of the Lord offenselessly will not be so contaminated. A properly initiated Vaiṣṇava may be imperfect, but one who chants the holy name of the Lord offenselessly is all-perfect. Although he may apparently be a neophyte, he still has to be considered a pure unalloyed Vaiṣṇava. It is the duty of the householder to offer respects to such an unalloyed Vaiṣṇava. This is Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 He is clearing trying to misdirect Srila Prabhupada's flock. When some sheep sees the wolf in sheep's clothing doing mischief they should sound the alarm to warn the other sheep. That is not a lynch mob mentality. Those that demand silence among the sheep become collaboraters with the wolf. Srila Prabhupada's flock is already scattered in 10 different directions, with all kinds of people claiming exclusive right to knowing "the only way". I am not calling for silent approval of anything. I quoted Acharya Narahari Sarkara on the issue of rejecting one's guru and asked if Krsna-kirti's action is based on what is presented there. Would you be raising your opposition to Hridayananda if he blessed a marriage of meat eaters, gamblers, and drinkers of alcohol? I doubt that very much. Somehow being gay is so monumentally worse in your mind that it calls for most drastic measures... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy108 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 LOL@ 'liberated soul' kanisthas WHAT are they liberated from? They are conditioned by their impurities, plain and simple. Fine, I will do your homework for you. Generally the truth is as stated in this purport. Madhya 24.277 : PURPORT Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī devotees cannot turn others into Vaiṣṇavas The exception that you mentioned from Nectar of Devotion 5, the subject under discussion, is only possible under the condition the Kanistha is a pure devotee. And how are they pure? They, although kanistha, have come to the stage of offenseless chanting. Your "LOL" not withstanding, here are the relevant passages. CC Adi 7.51 Although a kaniṣṭha-adhikārī also cannot tolerate such blasphemy, he is not competent to stop it by citing śāstric evidences. Therefore Tapana Miśra and Candraśekhara are understood to be kaniṣṭha-adhikārīs because they could not refute the arguments of the sannyāsīs in Benares. They appealed to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu to take action, for they felt that they could not tolerate such criticism although they also could not stop it.. CC Adi 7.52 : PURPORT : Because the blasphemy was cast against Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself, He did not feel sorry, and therefore He was smiling. This is ideal Vaiṣṇava behavior. One should not become angry upon hearing criticism of himself, but if other Vaiṣṇavas are criticized one must be prepared to act as previously suggested. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very compassionate for His pure devotees Tapana Miśra and Candraśekhara; therefore by His grace this brāhmaṇa immediately came to Him. By His omnipotency the Lord created this situation for the happiness of His devotees. Madhya 15.111 : PURPORT : In his Upadeśāmṛta, Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī states: kṛṣṇeti yasya giri taṁ manasādriyeta dīkṣāsti cet. An advanced devotee should respect a person who has been initiated by a bona fide spiritual master and who is situated on the transcendental platform, chanting the holy name with faith and obeisances and following the instructions of the spiritual master. Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura comments that serving Vaiṣṇavas is most important for householders. Whether a Vaiṣṇava is properly initiated or not is not a subject for consideration. One may be initiated and yet contaminated by the Māyāvāda philosophy, but a person who chants the holy name of the Lord offenselessly will not be so contaminated. A properly initiated Vaiṣṇava may be imperfect, but one who chants the holy name of the Lord offenselessly is all-perfect. Although he may apparently be a neophyte, he still has to be considered a pure unalloyed Vaiṣṇava. It is the duty of the householder to offer respects to such an unalloyed Vaiṣṇava. This is Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Generally the truth is as stated in this purport. From the same purport (Madhya 24.277): It is Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's wish that everyone should become a Vaiṣṇava and guru. Following the instructions of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His disciplic succession, one can become a spiritual master, for the process is very easy. One can go everywhere and anywhere to preach the instructions of Kṛṣṇa. The Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa's instructions; therefore the duty of every Vaiṣṇava is to travel and preach the Bhagavad-gītā, either in his country or a foreign country. This is the test of sparśa-maṇi, following in the footsteps of Nārada Muni. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy108 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 From the same purport (Madhya 24.277): It is Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's wish that everyone should become a Vaiṣṇava and guru. Following the instructions of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His disciplic succession, one can become a spiritual master, for the process is very easy. One can go everywhere and anywhere to preach the instructions of Kṛṣṇa. The Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa's instructions; therefore the duty of every Vaiṣṇava is to travel and preach the Bhagavad-gītā, either in his country or a foreign country. This is the test of sparśa-maṇi, following in the footsteps of Nārada Muni. Yeah, and your point is? Hmmm let me prognosticate. Since it was Mahaprabhu's wish that everyone BECOME guru... Everything I posted is irrelevant. You don't need to recognize how you were wrong about your assertions. Because Mahaprabhu's "WISH" is some kind of magic wand. Blaspheme the Acarya. Disobey His instructions. Criticize Him. No worries, you are automatically an Initiating Guru, because of this purport. Kulapavana, you were just plain wrong. I gave proof. And you are so stubbornly hell-bent on your Instant Shake and Bake Guru theory, that you quote the Lord's desire as some kind of exemption that excludes the process of BECOMING. Like the Pope selling indulgences. All those nice Iskconers are all Gurus because they talk about Bhagavad Gita while they are abusing each other, don't you know? Take your show on the road, it doesn't fly here. The offenses that your psuedo-Bad-Guru Hurry Cash committed and never repented (he is an atheist now), have no bearing to you? Sorry. His chanting was not offenseless. He had not completed the process of "Becoming" offenseless. Thus he was and is not a Guru. And you certainly have no claim to having received formal Diksa into Gaudiya Vaisnavism through him. No more than "Krishna Kirti" has that claim through the self-confessed Acarya minimizing criticizer, Hridayananda. You may have received some real initiation through chanting the Maha-Mantra, the one thing Srila Prabhupada gave that these Gundas could not change by false translation. But your neophyte status is seriously tottering on the edge of the abyss called DENIAL. You are far from being able to removing anyone's darkness until you remove your own. Wake up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 ... Because Mahaprabhu's "WISH" is some kind of magic wand. I'm not attacking your overall ideas in this post...but - yes, if Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead then His WISH" is some kind of magic wand. It's just that He wishes to have suddha bhaktas represent Him, and those who claim to represent Him will be tested by Him for purity. And what I mean by represent here is to take the position of Krsna's (Mahaprabhu's) pure representative of His sampradaya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy108 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 I'm not attacking your overall ideas in this post...but - yes, if Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead then His WISH" is some kind of magic wand. It's just that He wishes to have suddha bhaktas represent Him, and those who claim to represent Him will be tested by Him for purity. And what I mean by represent here is to take the position of Krsna's (Mahaprabhu's) pure representative of His sampradaya. Well, considering that semantic arguments are the first refuge of the MISREPRESENTATION ARTISTS, only a cheating sophist would not get the meaning behind my statements. "Yes, BUT" always smells a little fishy to me and I wait for the other shoe to drop. You toed the line. I agree his wish and desire is a magic wand in the sense that without that desire, none of us would have a chance of fulfilling it. But too many use this desire to justify that they can do any old thing they please, because His Wish somehow negates the free will to resist, and thus any miscreance engaged in is His Fault or Sanctioned by Him. He waved His magic wand, I have become Guru, we are all guru, yippee, pat pat on the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 The Yamadutas are looking for a few good souls, The few the proud, The Yamadutas. paid advertisement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 The Yamadutas are looking for a few good souls, The few the proud, The Yamadutas. paid advertisement What Kulapavana actually is stating is that the world wide Catholic church agrees with his/GBC policy that God's direct representative, diksa-guru is a conditioned kanistha-adikari neophyte. So again this is slandering Lord Jesus and the entire Catholic church. Jesus clearly stated everywhere that he is a human being who was telling them the truth that he heard from God. Jesus never nowhere stated that he himself is God!!!!!!!! Yet, we see Vaishnavas saying, Jesus is God. If some Christians say that, they mean to say father and son are one in that sense that the son acts according the will of father. Not that the son became the father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Yeah, and your point is? My point is this: "Following the instructions of ŚrīCaitanyaMahāprabhu and His disciplic succession, one can become a spiritual master, for the process is very easy. One can go everywhere and anywhere to preach the instructions of Kṛṣṇa. " Srila Prabhupada If none of Prabhupada's disciples are fit to be a guru after more than 3 decades of following his process, than his mission is a complete failure and he is lying about the process of becoming a spiritual master being very easy. If you can't see that Hridayananda fits the requirements in the above sentence than I can't help you. You ritviks find every concievable excuse to discredit Prabhupada's disciples acting as gurus. Your quotes above are a perfect example of such efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 The offenses that your psuedo-Bad-Guru Hurry Cash committed and never repented (he is an atheist now), have no bearing to you? Sorry. His chanting was not offenseless. He had not completed the process of "Becoming" offenseless. Thus he was and is not a Guru. And how do you know whose chanting is offenseless? You ritviks have a special Supersoul channel on your TV? and gain ask yourself a question: how was it that Prabhupada himself designated Harikesa and 10 others as initiating gurus? When you say that my diksa is bogus you are saying that Prabhupada's authorization to Harikesa to give diksa is bogus as well. This is the way of ritvikvada: no logic, no consistency, just a mental diarrhea caused by envy and fanaticism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 And how do you know whose chanting is offenseless? You ritviks have a special Supersoul channel on your TV? and gain ask yourself a question: how was it that Prabhupada himself designated Harikesa and 10 others as initiating gurus? When you say that my diksa is bogus you are saying that Prabhupada's authorization to Harikesa to give diksa is bogus as well. This is the way of ritvikvada: no logic, no consistency, just a mental diarrhea caused by envy and fanaticism... After Prabhupada saw the sannyasa fiasco, blooping GBCs fiasco, did he do it again, to appoint people into absolutism of being the next acarya? No, he didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 After Prabhupada saw the sannyasa fiasco, blooping GBCs fiasco, did he do it again, to appoint people into absolutism of being the next acarya? No, he didn't. In 1977 Prabhupada appointed 11 people to give diksa and first initiations to new devotees. That has nothing to do with 'absolutism of being the next acarya'. When Andy-the-ritvik questions the validity of those initiations he questions Prabhupada's authorization as well. I took first initiation in 1979 and second in 1980 from Harikesa, who was one of the 11 people Prabhupada authorized to do so. Would I take initiation from Harikesa if Prabhupada did not explicitly authorized him to do so? Not likely. So if Andy insists on considering such initiations as bogus and blaming the new devotees for allowing themselves to be cheated, he is also blaming Prabhupada for creating a system in which people he authorized as his representatives cheated the newcomers. However, Andy has no clue what was going on in that part of the world 30 years ago, because he was not there. He did not see the efforts of various devotees to translate, print, and distribute millions of Prabhupada's books in Eastern Europe, often done by devotees risking their life in the process. I was there so I know. Several times I very narrowly escaped arrest or had to bribe the police to get devotees out of jail. Harikesa was one of the devotees whose own actions inspired us to serve Mahaprabhu's mission. We were told he was appointed by Prabhupada to give us initiations, and we took them, because HE ACTED THE PART PRABHUPADA MADE HIM PLAY! Yes, many years later he fell down badly, for various reasons... and may Lord Krsna be kind to him for the service he performed in His mission. I do not give a flying hoot about what Andy or other ritviks think about my diksa. I know what is true and what is valid for me. Let them worry about their own salvation and the validity of their own connection to Krsna and our sampradaya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 ...When you say that my diksa is bogus you are saying that Prabhupada's authorization to Harikesa to give diksa is bogus as well. This is the way of ritvikvada: no logic, no consistency, just a mental diarrhea caused by envy and fanaticism... Srila Sridhar Maharaja, 1982: They came to me and told that Swami Maharaja had appointed them. I am a simple man so I had no reason to disbelieve them. But now I can see by their actions that it is not possible that Swami Maharaja appointed them, it is not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 In 1977 Prabhupada appointed 11 people to give diksa and first initiations to new devotees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah utpatha-pratipannasya parityago vidhiyate It is ones duty to give up a guru who cannot teach the disciple what he should do and what he should not do, and who takes the wrong path, either because of bad association or because he is opposed to Vaisnavas. One goes to hell if he accepts mantras from an avaisnava-guru, that is, one who is associating with women, and who is devoid of krisna-bhakti. Narada-pancaratra (1.10.20) Therefore, according to the rules of sastra, one should take mantras again from a Vaisnava guru. Hari-bhakti-vilasa (4.144) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Srila Sridhar Maharaja, 1982: <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>They came to me and told that Swami Maharaja had appointed them. I am a simple man so I had no reason to disbelieve them. But now I can see by their actions that it is not possible that Swami Maharaja appointed them, it is not possible. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> I have no idea what they told Sridhar Maharaja about what exactly their appointment was. Was it about giving diksa or about being 'acharyas' of his movement. Yet the tapes are there, as well as the letter signed by Prabhupada with their names and authorization to initiate. Based on that information in 1979 we were all told these devotees were authorized to give us initiation and there was nothing in Harikesa's behavior at that time that made any of us doubt it. If we were gullible and naive to believe in that, so was Srila Prabhupada who selected them from thousands of other disciples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Srila Sridhar Maharaja, 1982:<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: I have no idea what they told Sridhar Maharaja about what exactly their appointment was. Was it about giving diksa or about being 'acharyas' of his movement. Yet the tapes are there, as well as the letter signed by Prabhupada with their names and authorization to initiate. Based on that information in 1979 we were all told these devotees were authorized to give us initiation and there was nothing in Harikesa's behavior at that time that made any of us doubt it. If we were gullible and naive to believe in that, so was Srila Prabhupada who selected them from thousands of other disciples. First Two Official Meetings of Srila Sridhara Maharaja with the ISKCON GBC March 1978 [Portions printed in Sri Guru & His Grace] [Known present GBC members: Tamal Krsna Maharaja, Jayapataka Maharaja, Jayatirtha Maharaja, Harikesa Maharaja, Satsvarupa Maharaja, Jayadvaita Maharaja, and others] This talk formed the basis of the ISKCON GBC's 1978 paper entitled, THE PROCESS FOR CARRYING OUT SRILA PRABHUPADA'S DESIRES FOR FUTURE INITIATIONS Jayapataka Mj: After the departure of our beloved spiritual master we came to offer our respects to you as well as to hear your very esteemed upadesa on certain matters if you would be kind enough. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: The gurudeva is mentioned in the sastra with an example. The sisya is like a lotus, and the gurudeva like the water around, just as in a pond or in a lake, gurudevas position is like water and Krsna is like the sun. As long as the lotus is floating on the water, the sun will give life to the lotus but if the water vanishes that very sun will burn the lotus. Do you follow? This sort of example is given in the sastra. I cannot exactly remember the sanskrit verse, but such example is there, the water along with the lotus, for without water the sun, Krsna, will burn. Without the help of guru the disciple is nowhere. Raghunatha Das Goswami prabhu, the prayojana acarya of the whole Gaudiya philosophy, spiritual system-he has also remarked that yat bunjayate kunjam hrdayate . . .that a python is coming. After the demise, departure of Sri Gurudeva, Rupa-Sanatana, that Govardhan Hill, which is the representation of Sri Krsna Himself, it seems to me just like a big python is coming to devour me and Radha Kunda the holiest place of the divinity of the Gaudiya Sampradaya, like a tigers mouth, it is coming to devour me by the separation of Gurudeva. So much excitement is there, given to me about the absence of my gurudeva, my dearest and my highest guardian, spiritual guardian, who has the most intense affection for me, to nurture me for spiritual purpose. He is not here, how can I tolerate that my everything is gone. All vanishes with his departure-such sort of deep sense of separation will come and the . . . Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Where is Bhavananda, is he here? Jayapataka Maharaja: He couldn't come today. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: He told in his lecture, that union in separation is the highest realization. I was very happy to hear from his lips that union in separation-vipralambha-that is the highest kind of attainment, vipralambha. Without vipralambha nothing else can come to us. Krsna and the opposite thing, that is antithesis, that will come as vipralambha, vihara, Krsna vihara, krsna milan, krsna vihara and without milan there cannot be any other reaction to that, without that separation, vihara, vipralambha. So, vipralambha is the most spacious, most spacious thing pertaining to Krsna consciousness. And if we can have the grace of that plane, forgetfullness. In forgetfullness also, if there is Krsna connection then we are safe, we are set. In the forgetfulness also we shall have the Krsna consciousness also in the background and nothing else-no maya. The safest position, fearless position, that is vipralambha. In vipralambha, gurudeva, in separation to gurudeva, if we can stand then vidyavatam bhagavate pariksad. I have passed the highest stage, test, examination. In separation also I can retain the memory of sri gurudeva, Sri Krsna. Jayapataka Maharaja: Maharaja, when our Srila Prabhupada left, then he has given instruction that for initiating and for carrying on the sampradaya there would be eleven-in the beginning, he appointed eleven devotees, his disciples, to be initiating spiritual masters or to accept disciples and in the future that number would also be able to be increased. So we wanted to take your advice on some points as to various details of how these initiating spiritual masters should deal with certain questions. If we could ask questions to you then? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: yes, you may ask. Jayapataka Maharaja: He has given explicit desires, but he told us that, on other technical points and other matters of philosophy, it there was question we should approach you. He said that during his...when he was very ill, he had appointed eleven ritviks and he said that after he disappears that these ritviks would continue as initiating spiritual masters and that they could be increased later, that would be decided by the GBC or Governing Body Commission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 The first question was, we wondered that some of the disciples had been initiated by Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. But this Harinama, so they will be taking diksa from one of his disciples, so they wondered, what is their relationship in this type of situation with each of the spiritual masters. So, those who are initiated by our Srila Prabhupada with Harinama, then when they approach one of these eleven and take second initiation then they would like to know what is the, who is the guru, spiritual master amongst these eleven. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: A Disciple, he may like one-first or third or fourth or fifth, how to solve that. Tamal Krsna Mj (background): That we must solve. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: A person . .. Jayapataka Maharaja: He can take who he likes, he may take whichever one he wants? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: According to his sraddha. Devotee: His faith. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: According to his sraddha a newcomer should be given some time. Who will come to be initiated, he should be given some time for a fair period of time to hear from different persons and then the sraddha, the faith ... Devotee: Will be awakened. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Ah, will be considered to whom he will submit. Do you follow? GBC Assembly: Yes Srila Sridhara Maharaja: After sravan, then varan, five stages there are; first to hear. First stage is to hear and the second stage, that is varan, that is, acceptance by the guru and the sisya, both the preceptor and the disciple. That is the second stage, varan dasa. Then the sadhana or the attempt for realization will begin. First stage, to hear openly, open field-fair field to hear-then the connection should come between the guru and sisya-preceptor and disciple, both sides. Then that should be better. Sravan dasa, then varan dasa, then sadhana dasa, apan dasa, prapan dasa-five stages in sadhana in spiritual life. Devotee: At which stage does diksa come? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Prapana dasa-last. First sravan Devotee: Hearing. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Sravan, to hear, to listen to and then varan-both preceptor accepts the sisya... Devotee: This is the Harinama stage Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Both Harinama. Harinama is the main thing and diksa only to help Harinama. It is mentioned in Rupa Goswami's writings that Harinama diksa is the main thing. Jayapataka Maharaja: Accha. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: And the Pancaratric Diksa, it is Bhagavati diksa, Harinama diksa, that means bhagavati diksa. Pancaratic diksa is mantram and that only to help Harinama, that one can reach to the siddhi of Harinama, this mantra will help. Mantra's jurisdiction up to salvation, liberation. And after liberation Harinama continues-Harinama circle-greater circle and diksa is a smaller circle within the Harinama circle. Harinama reaches to the lowest and the highest. And diksa in the middle part-mid circle-that may help to Harinama. Muktafal, Harinama, not mantra.... trayateti mantra, this mental, which will relieve us from mental speculation-that is mantram, this manama-dharma that is the worldly mind should, we should get relief from the worldly-mindedness by mantram, but Harinama is a natural thing. It reaches to the lowest and goes to the highest-Harinama. Jayapataka Maharaja: So those who have recieved Harinama from Bhaktivedanta Swami, then they are his disciples. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: They will take help, his disciples, may be, and they will take help from the diksa guru, because they are in the sadhana, on the way to the end. So, they'll take the help of this mantra guru. Nama guru, mantra guru. Nama guru is Bhaktivedanta Swami and when he will take mantrum from any of his disciples, he will be his mantra guru. Jayapataka Maharaja: So, they will offer respect to both, a disciple will offer respect to both-nama guru and mantra guru? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Mantra guru. Then there is also sannyasa guru. Sannyasa guru is also in the stage-sannyasa or babaji state-that is also a guru. Guru-ONE IN MANY FORMS-siksa guru. Siksa guru. atamat ta mantra gurun siksa gurun. Devotee: guru bhagavat tadan. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: guru bhagavat tadan avare haritaki, vande 'ham sri guru sri gurun. Tamal Krsna Maharaja was saying the other day, "vande 'ham sri gurun sri yuta pada kamalan sri gurun vaisnavams ca. Sri gurun . . . plural. Tamal Krsna Maharaja: Plural Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Plural-vaisnavams ca one all Jayapataka Maharaja: What is the difference between siksa guru and diksa guru? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Diksa guru, siksa-guruke ta' jani krsnera svarupa (CC Adi 1.47). Caitanya Caritamrta. Siksa guru both extension of Krsna. Guru is Krsna, acaryam mam vijaniyam. Krsna has come there to liberate me, in different appearance, representations. He is coming, Krsna coming, oneness in variegated position. Tamal Krsna Maharaja: (Background): Who can be a siksa guru, who is qualified? Jayapataka Maharaja: who is qualified to be a siksa guru? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: What does he speak? Jayapataka Maharaja: Who is qualified? (Bengali): Siksa guru ha upa yukta ke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Whoever sincerely will help me to go towards Krsna, he is siksa guru. Vaisnava is also siksa guru, vaisnavas. Vaisnavas, siksa guru. Who will come in my connection and will help me to go forward, he is siksa guru. Vartma pradarsaka. And there is vartma pradarsaka, siksa guru, mantra guru, nama guru, then sannyasa guru. Jayapataka Maharaja: What is the relationship between a sannyasi and his sannyasa guru. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: That is tathasta, whom I am much indebted for my spiritual progress, who will help me most in my spiritual progress, there we shall find the main guru. Otherwise, through whom the maximum grace will come to me to take me towards the Supreme entity, he is the... Dev (background: Who is the main guru?) Srila Sridhara Maharaja: ...supreme guru. Jayapataka Maharaja: What is their relationship of sannyasi and his sannyasa guru-just like a siksa guru? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: First guru, vartma pradarsaka guru is the first guru, who shows the way. He may leave, otherwise, the mantra guru, nama guru, if I am accepted by any nama guru, then as long as the nama guru is present, I am getting only one guru, and after his departure if sannyasa guru or mantra guru comes then I shall offer all my regards to him seeing the representative of the previous guru. Do you follow? Assembly: Yes. Jayapataka Maharaja: In the presence of the . . . Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Representative, only vartma pradarska maybe present before the real guru. TKG (background): He may remain. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: And other gurus cannot be present, with the diksa guru. Nama guru or diksa guru, that will be one and the same. Jayapataka Maharaja: Whoever the nama guru is, he should also consequently be... Srila Sridhara Maharaja: If nama guru is living, then he should be mantra guru, he should be sannyasa guru. Jayapataka Maharaja: Everything. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Everything, everything. And the ritviks are but vartma pradarsaka guru. When he was living, he appointed so many ritviks, representatives, they are really, they are vartma pradarsaka. Do you follow? Jayapataka Maharaja: Vartma pradarsaka. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: That, they are showing, they are showing, indicating the way to the guru. Jayapataka Maharaja: At which stage is the karma accepted by the guru? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: When the guru first accepts the disciple, then he will take the charge. Diksa, Bhagavate. Diksa is nama diksa. Pancaratric diksa, mantra diksa, at the time of diksa, initiation, the guru accepts him as he is, accepting the charge to wash away the sins, by his instructions. santevas saucindate mana basangam itibi Dev (background): Harinama? TKG(aside): Both, the karma is accepted for both, because he washes and cleans at that time. Dev (aside): At which time? Tamal Krsna Maharaja: Both initiations. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: And the guru, he also does the function by the help of his guru, in this way the chain goes to Krsna but, tada bhaktave, the medium is so transparent that is, no time can be guru parampara. It goes to Krsna, in no time. So the guru should be transparent. Who has wholey given himself to his own guru, he is guru. The cent percent servant of his guru is guru. This is the criterion. Who has wholey dedicated himself to guru, he is guru. Whatever comes to him he already reaches to his guru, this transparent medium. Jayapataka Maharaja: And to whatever extent he is not surrendered, that much he won't go forward, (Bengali): jatadur samarpen haya nama tatakun ara Srila Sridhara Maharaja: tatakun coming to opaque-coming to transparent. Jayapataka Maharaja: Partially. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Partially to opaque, partially to transparent. According to the transparency, guru should be recognized in tathasta vicar. Vijayate tathasta tata, that will be clearly. Tathasta-impartial judgement at the relative and the absolute, two sorts of judgement-absolute and relative. Jayapataka Maharaja: Yes. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: You see, just as in the worldly representation, my mother most affectionate to me, his mother is most affectionate to him, but when the comparison will be drawn between two mothers, who is more affectionte, that is another thing, will come. Relative and absolute, calculation. Absolute calculation will get the supermost hand. SPM: So. TKG (Background): Next question. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: That is to be done amongst you-both relative and absolute. Even a disciple, he may commit error. Disciple, when he is going to accept his guru, he may be erronious. However, it is the duty of the other Vaisnavas to give him proper guidance. That should also come. In the consideration of absolute realization; these intricate points will arise. Jayapataka Maharaja: If the initiating guru, the Nama guru, say he falls down, just as we hear of one Maharaja . . . Say he falls down, from the path by act of providence, then what should the disciple do? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: He will take Name again and after-he may wait for some time. Because, if he was sincere first, he was a sincere disciple to his guru, first, now for some offenses he's neglected by his guru for sometime, he maybe, here and there, astray, led astray. Then he may come again, after that. . . (Bengali conversation) . . . karyakaryam ajanatah, utpatha-prathipannasya, parityago vidhiyate. In Mahabharat, Visvanatha says, statement: Dasa Mahajana , one of Dasa Mahajanas is Bhisma. Bhisma says to Parasurama, he is astra guru. Astra guru, also deva guru, acarya guru. Jiva Goswami Prabhu has taken this example guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah utpatha-prathipannasya parityago vidhiyate "A guru who does not know what is to be done and what is not to be done, who has left the path of devotional service, should be abandoned." Mahabharata (Udyoga-parva 179.25) If he goes astray, then he should be left, but there may be circumstances for some time. By the inconceivable desire of Krsna he may go astray, and he may come back again, come back again. So, disciple may wait for some time. Dev (Background): See if he comes back. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: And this is very unfortunate for the disciple when he gets such a test. In Harinama Cintamani, written by Bhaktivinode Thakur, you will find this elaborately described. Harinama Cintamani by Bhaktivinode Thakur, there we will find this guru tyaja chapter, how he has dealt with it carefully. Harinama Cintamani. Jayapataka Maharaja So, in ISKCON, there are many initiating gurus . . . Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Just as you see, if a son disobeys his father, then the father may be indifferent to the son and for sometime he may be [taken from the will] excluding him but after sometime, he sees that the son comes back, is obedient, then again he may correct his will, it may be like that. api cet suduracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak sadhur eva mantavyah samyag vyavasito hi sah "Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination."(Bhagavad-gita 9.30) So, only very abruptly, we should not deal with such things of unfortunate incidence, wait and see. Generally, in his own zone, he will perform diksa, generally. But there should be special arrangement. Aki mandire... (Bengali) Jayapataka Maharaja: Now, are five disciples in one temple, each with a different guru of these eleven. (Bengali) Jayapataka Maharaja: The pictures on the altar, different things, how will these be managed? How they would? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Then, the arcak, who is performing the worship, he will worship his, the portrait of his own guru as guru, and other gurus as Vaisnava, he will worship. Do you follow? Jayapataka Maharaja: Yes, and those pictures will be put on far left side? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, they should be in a position that should be adjusted. They should be dealt as Vaisnava, after guru puja. Jayapataka Maharaja: Guru puja. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: After his own guru puja, he will perform guru puja and others and then Vaisnava puja. The other gurus will come in the rank of Vaisnava guru. Jayapataka Maharaja: So everyone's picture could be there, all of the... Srila Sridhara Maharaja: All the portraits could be there. Jayapataka Maharaja: And he will worship his own guru as guru. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: One guru as guru and the others as Vaisnava. Vaisnava siksa guru. Tamal Krsna Maharaja: But, explain. In one temple, in one of our Maths, the disciples may have many different gurus, just like there are eleven persons now. So, say three of those eleven persons may be the gurus of the disciples in that Math, then how to know whose picture to put on the ... Srila Sridhara Maharaja: So, to get out of this difficulty, the zonal preference should be maintained. Assembly (Background): The zonal preference should be maintained to get out of this problem. Srila Sridhara Maharaja: To get out of this difficulty, as much as possible, but what I m saying is, that may be applicable easily in the branch Maths. But in the main Maths, Mayapur, Vrndavana, where all is interested keenly, difficulty will arise there. Jayapataka Maharaja: So there, there can be a group photo. (Laughter) Tamal Krsna Maharaja: Group photo, say it in Bengali. [to Srila Sridhara Maharaja] Jayapataka Maharaja: (Bengali) Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Group photo, group photo. But then, then also a difficulty will arise, his guru. Guru photo, but, everyone will like that his guru must be in the center. Assembly: Laughter. Tamal Krsna Maharaja: (Serious): No, No, No, We... Srila Sridhara Maharaja: This difficulty may arise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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