Definition Of Diksha

[cbrahma]

 

Kulapavana,

Don't waste your time with such people, obviously they have never had any real sadhu sanga, don' let them suck you into such idiotic debates.

I myself am out of here, apraradha and sadhu ninda is being comitted here friends.

Of course you are the sadhus LOL. Especially if you say so yourselves. Prabhupada's clear instructions have no such value of course.

Puffed up religionists are sooooo funny. You seriously need to get over yourself but the chances of that, now that you've had your fire sacrifice are slim to none.

[cbrahma]

 

The essential teachings of SP are those he exemplified by his practical actions, like formally giving diksa to his disciples and insisting that they take it seriously.

.

Right. And his vani counts for nothing, teachings BTW which I never tire of quoting and you never tire ignoring.

Towards the end he regularly initiated by ritvik. Is that his essential teaching? Your logic is badly in need of repair.

You obviously missed the part where he said not all disciples had to be brahmincally initiated, simply because that doesn't give you the exclusive prestige you hanker for

[Kulapavana]

 

You obviously missed the part where he said not all disciples had to be brahmincally initiated, simply because that doesn't give you the exclusive prestige you hanker for

 

he tried to turn EVERYBODY who joined into a brahmana and after several years he saw that it was not working. so he changed his system, or at least tried to. The same thing happened with his sannyasis.

 

HE DID NOT WANT TO GIVE DIKSA AND GAYATRI TO UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE - THIS IS HOW VALUABLE DIKSA IS. That is the moral of the story, not that somehow 'diksa is not important'.

 

Just like he tried to abolish sannyasa in Iskcon in 1977 - he saw that it was a mockery of the sannyasa ashram so he told his disciples to change the system. Too bad they did not listen and did not understand what it was all about.

[AncientMariner]

 

Of course you are the sadhus LOL. Especially if you say so yourselves. Prabhupada's clear instructions have no such value of course.

Puffed up religionists are sooooo funny.

 

 

Yeah, that is always puzzling to me as well. My understanding of saintly people is that they view themselves as lower than the straw in the street and do not actually view themselves as saintly.

[Kulapavana]

 

Kulapavana,

Don't waste your time with such people, obviously they have never had any real sadhu sanga, don' let them suck you into such idiotic debates.

I myself am out of here, apraradha and sadhu ninda are being comitted here friends.

 

Problem is that some of these fossilized ex-dopeheads Prabhupada picked up from Bowery and Height Ashbury are still trying to mess up Lord Caitanya's movement with their concoctions. There is no shortage of deviants among Prabhupada's disciples - that is what happens when you preach to the most fallen and give Vedas to the sudras.

[cbrahma]

 

Yeah, that is always puzzling to me as well. My understanding of saintly people is that they view themselves as lower than the straw in the street and do not actually view themselves as saintly.

Fools never fail to betray themselves when they open their mouths.

[cbrahma]

 

he tried to turn EVERYBODY who joined into a brahmana and after several years he saw that it was not working. so he changed his system, or at least tried to. The same thing happened with his sannyasis.

 

HE DID NOT WANT TO GIVE DIKSA AND GAYATRI TO UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE - THIS IS HOW VALUABLE DIKSA IS. That is the moral of the story, not that somehow 'diksa is not important'.

 

Just like he tried to abolish sannyasa in Iskcon in 1977 - he saw that it was a mockery of the sannyasa ashram so he told his disciples to change the system. Too bad they did not listen and did not understand what it was all about.

Elementary logic lesson. An 'is' is not an 'ought'.

He practiced according to time and circumstance. His vani however is eternal.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yeah, that is always puzzling to me as well. My understanding of saintly people is that they view themselves as lower than the straw in the street and do not actually view themselves as saintly.

 

show me where I present myself to anybody as saintly or anything more than an aspiring sadhaka? I merely object to people concocting strange philosophies in the name of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

[Kulapavana]

 

Fools never fail to betray themselves when they open their mouths.

 

The same challenge to you: show me where I present myself to anybody as saintly or anything more than an aspiring sadhaka? I merely object to people concocting strange philosophies in the name of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

[cbrahma]

 

Problem is that some of these fossilized ex-dopeheads Prabhupada picked up from Bowery and Height Ashbury are still trying to mess up Lord Caitanya's movement with their concoctions. There is no shortage of deviants among Prabhupada's disciples - that is what happens when you preach to the most fallen and give Vedas to the sudras.

 

Nice apharada there o advanced brahamana. That could describe the many advanced Prabhupada disciples, which BTW Prabhupada saw fit to initiate anyways.

Puffed up religionists are sooooo funny.

[cbrahma]

 

The same challenge to you: show me where I present myself to anybody as saintly or anything more than an aspiring sadhaka? I merely object to people concocting strange philosophies in the name of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

Yah like systematically ignoring or trying to explain away Prabhupada's statements.

[Kulapavana]

 

He practiced according to time and circumstance. His vani however is eternal.

 

First you have to understand his vani. His practice is as much his vani as his words. And we also have the vani of the previous acharyas, as well as the standard shastras. It al has to confirm to the same one standard.

[cbrahma]

 

The same challenge to you: show me where I present myself to anybody as saintly or anything more than an aspiring sadhaka? I merely object to people concocting strange philosophies in the name of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

Speaking on the behalf of all Vaisnavas, claiming your formal initiation gives you knowledge inaccessible to the uninitiated, trying to second quess Prabhupada's intention.

Ignoring Prabhupada's instructions in favor of unsubstantiated claims to higher knowledge.

Calling people who don't accept your religionist stance - sudras

Clinging desperately to your diska status as a position of religious superiority.

 

to name but a few...

 

To name a few.

[cbrahma]

 

First you have to understand his vani. His practice is as much his vani as his words. And we also have the vani of the previous acharyas, as well as the standard shastras. It al has to confirm to the same one standard.

Which you clearly don't even acknowledge when it's quoted to you. I don't need your superior 'explanation' of his vani, either. It speaks for itself.

Puffed up religionists are sooooo funny.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yah like systematically ignoring or trying to explain away Prabhupada's statements.

 

Prabhupada's statements must be understood and explained in the context of guru, sadhu, and shastra. They are not an independent authority, they are not always absolute, and they are not always correct (like the Moon distance). Blind acceptance is not a sign of humility or advancement.

[cbrahma]

 

Prabhupada's statements must be understood and explained in the context of guru, sadhu, and shastra. They are not an independent authority, they are not always absolute, and they are not always correct (like the Moon distance). Blind acceptance is not a sign of humility or advancement.

Prabhupada is the guru - o wise and all-knowing sadhu.

I don't want to start another thread on that topic. But the Moon business is the least of the instructions that you re-interpret according to your puffed up religionist needs.

[Kulapavana]

 

Speaking on the behalf of all Vaisnavas, claiming your formal initiation gives you knowledge inaccessible to the uninitiated, trying to second quess Prabhupada's intention.

Ignoring Prabhupada's instructions in favor of unsubstantiated claims to higher knowledge.

Calling people who don't accept your religionist stance - sudras

Clinging desperately to your diska status as a position of religious superiority.

 

to name but a few...

 

To name a few.

 

LOL! You wish it was that simple!

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhupada is the guru - o wise and all-knowing sadhu.

I don't want to start another on that topic. But the Moon business is the least of the instructions that you re-interpret according to your puffed up religionist needs.

 

Yes, Prabhupada is one of the gurus in the Saraswata line of the Gaudiya Vaishnavism and his statements must be compared to the statements of his guru, other Vaishnava acharyas, and Vaishnava shastras. And things like the Moon issue show that you have to apply some discretion when it comes to blind acceptance of everything he ever said.

[AncientMariner]

 

show me where I present myself to anybody as saintly or anything more than an aspiring sadhaka? I merely object to people concocting strange philosophies in the name of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

 

I don't know that you have. Just the way you speak it seems like you see yourself as the ultimate authority on Gaudiya Vaishnavism and on Prabhupada and his intentions etc and I am not convinced that is brahmanical in quality but who knows for sure.. Maybe you are and maybe you are not, I don't know I guess that is up to Krishna to decide. Mr. Spades or clubs or whatever suit he is started mentioning aparadha as if everyone who doesn't agree with your interpetation is committing aparadha so by that statement I assumed that he is putting himself and yourself on the saintly platform.

[Kulapavana]

 

I don't know that you have. Just the way you speak it seems like you see yourself as the ultimate authority on Gaudiya Vaishnavism and on Prabhupada and his intentions etc and I am not convinced that is brahmanical in quality but who knows for sure.

 

I am not an ultimate authority on anything. None of us here are. But I do know a thing or two about GV and Prabhupada's intentions. I am also not rich in brahminical qualities yet I will try to object to what I see is a distortion of the teachings of our sampradaya. Even a sadhaka is expected to do that.

[AncientMariner]

 

I am not an ultimate authority on anything. None of us here are. But I do know a thing or two about GV and Prabhupada's intentions. I am also not rich in brahminical qualities yet I will try to object to what I see is a distortion of the teachings of our sampradaya. Even a sadhaka is expected to do that.

 

 

No problem with having a viewpoint and objecting to what you see as distortions.

[theist]

... responds to cbrahma this way.

 

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> cbrahma says:

"The formality has no potency in itself."

 

You obvioulsy were never part of one, otherwise you could not say such a thing! We who did on the other hand know differently. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> To which I respond.

 

 

You are claiming to be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and after all this time you still cannot see any deeper than this?

 

You find fault in cbrahma's statement? Then perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us by explaining what potency the formality has in and of itself, that is without the internal meaning.

 

Please be very specific.

 

To which triple dot replied.

 

 

'Like A lightening Bolt'

Hows that?

 

you never were part of one either I guess and want to minimize all who did too huh.

 

Sad indeed.

 

 

 

As if transcendental knowledge is suddenly transfered from guru to disciple via electric shock at the point of the formal initiation rite.

 

This sounds more like Guru Maharaja ji (remember him) and his ilk. It sounds nothing like genuine Vaisnavism. Or even some Christians who claim that because of being Baptised in water they are now quaunteed liberation.

 

And this was the best answer he could come up when asked to be specific, "Like a lightning bolt."

[Beggar]

I have read (I'm being lazy and not looking for the quotes) from Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja (Prabhupada's Indian disciple who passed on about 12 yr. ago in his mid-sixties) and Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja (Prabhupada's godbrother who entered nitya lila about 9 yr. ago at 103) that there is always a pure devotee guru on the planet. Then it is written that if we cannot find that guru, it is because of own lack of sukrti or qualification. One may wonder then why Krsna says that at times He must come again to re-establish real dharma, yada yada hi dharmasya. To me the answer is that the aspirant should always see, "that if there is any lacking then that lacking is within me."

Obviously in the object world things happen such as corruption and scandal even within Gaudiya Vaisnava institutions. It is always difficult to balance and make sense out of the ideal of Krsna Consciousness and what we see in "real life". No one said that it is easy. The real entrance into Krsna bhakti is through humility and surrender in connection with the power source of pure association. To paraphrase (maybe Jesus) "the log is in our own eye."

Once we begin to blame the environment we step outside that realm of humility and surrender and may fall prey to obsessive fault finding. Then we will believe that our failure to really take to Krsna Consciousness is because there is no good association. And by good association in this context I really mean - higher association. One may believe that good association are those that share the same outlook, that things are hopeless because so many have fallen down. Even the mundane positive thinking movement knows that such negativity will eventually block our way and damage our wellbeing on every level.

[Kulapavana]

Most of the devotees I talked to said that their initiation was a momentous, life altering experience. Like a lightening bolt? perhaps, but not in the sense of gaining cheap power. Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote this about his diksa:

 

"While I was living in Narail I took diksha along with my wife. I had been searching for a suitable guru for a long time but I did not find one. I was very unhappy on that account. I had done much anxious thinking, and in a dream Prabhu diminished my unhappiness.

In the dream I got a hint. That day I became happy. One or two days later Gurudeva wrote to me saying, "I will come quickly and give you diksha." Gurudeva came and diksha was given. My mind was satisfied. From that very day the sinful reaction from meat eating went from my heart and mercy arose in me towards the jivas."

[AncientMariner]

 

I have read (I'm being lazy and not looking for the quotes) from Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja (Prabhupada's Indian disciple who passed on about 12 yr. ago in his mid-sixties) and Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja (Prabhupada's godbrother who entered nitya lila about 9 yr. ago at 103) that there is always a pure devotee guru on the planet. Then it is written that if we cannot find that guru, it is because of own lack of sukrti or qualification. One may wonder then why Krsna says that at times He must come again to re-establish real dharma, yada yada hi dharmasya. To me the answer is that the aspirant should always see, "that if there is any lacking then that lacking is within me."

Obviously in the object world things happen such as corruption and scandal even within Gaudiya Vaisnava institutions. It is always difficult to balance and make sense out of the ideal of Krsna Consciousness and what we see in "real life". No one said that it is easy. The real entrance into Krsna bhakti is through humility and surrender in connection with the power source of pure association. To paraphrase (maybe Jesus) "the log is in our own eye."

Once we begin to blame the environment we step outside that realm of humility and surrender and may fall prey to obsessive fault finding. Then we will believe that our failure to really take to Krsna Consciousness is because there is no good association. And by good association in this context I really mean - higher association. One may believe that good association are those that share the same outlook, that things are hopeless because so many have fallen down. Even the mundane positive thinking movement knows that such negativity will eventually block our way and damage our wellbeing on every level.

 

 

 

That is fine but those with your particular philosophical viewpoint on the subject seem to highly stress physical association and Prabhupada made statements about preceptorial association and things that just seem to be completely discounted by the groups from your philosophical viewpoint.

 

"When thou art living still in sound!"

- Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

"Such transcendental literatures,

even though irregularly composed,

are heard, sung and accepted by

purified men who are thoroughly honest."

(Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagvatam, Preface)

 

"The potency of transcendental sound

is never minimised because the vibrator

is apparently absent."

(Srila Prabhupada, S.B. 2.9.8, purport)

 

"Reception of spiritual knowledge

is never checked by

any material condition.

(Srila Prabhupada, S.B. 7.7.1, purport)

 

 

"I will live forever from my books

and you will utilise."

(Srila Prabhupada, 17/5/75, Berkeley USA)

 

"...and these books will do everything."

(Srila Prabhupada, 18/2/76)

 

"These are not ordinary books.

It is recorded chanting.

Anyone who reads, he is hearing."

(Srila Prabhupada, 19/10/74, Letter to Rupanuga Das)

 

"Physical presence is immaterial.

Presence of the transcendental sound

received from the Spiritual Master

should be the guidance of life."

(Srila Prabhupada, 19/1/67, Letter to Brahmananda and other students)

 

"So we should give more stress

on the sound vibration,

either of Krsna or Spiritual Master.

Never think that I am absent from you.

Physical presence is not essential;

presence by message (or hearing)

is the real touch."

(Srila Prabhupada, 2/8/67, Letter to students)

 

"Krishna and his representative are the same.

Similarly, the spiritual master

can be present wherever the disciple wants.

A spiritual master is the principle,

not the body.

Just like a television can be seen

in thousands of place

by the principle of relay monitoring."

(Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Malati, 28/5/68)

 

"Whatever I had to say,

I have already said in my books...

Whether I am present or not does not matter."

(Srila Prabhupada, 17/5/77, Vrindavan)

 

"In my books the philosophy of Krsna

Consciousness is explained fully..."

(Srila Prabhupada, 22/11/74, Letter to Brahmarupa Dasa)

 

"Diksa is the process

by which one can

awaken his transcendental knowledge

and vanquish all reactions

caused by sinful activity."

Srila Prabhupada's Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya, 15.108, purport

 

Srila Prabhupada : "Even a moment

association with a pure devotee - all success!"

Revatinandana : "Does that apply to reading

the words of a pure devotee?"

Srila Prabhupada : "Yes"

(Srila Prabhupada, 13/12/70)

 

"So although a physical body is not present,

the vibration should be accepted as

the presence of the Spiritual Master,

vibration.

What we have heard from the Spiritual Master,

that is living."

(Srila Prabhupada, 13/1/69, Los Angeles)

 

"Every one of you must regularly read our books...,

and automatically all questions will be answered."

(Srila Prabhupada, 24/01/70, Letter to Randhira)

 

"...you should always read my books daily

and all your questions will be answered..."

(Srila Prabhupada, 22/11/74, Letter to Hugo Salemon)

 

"So utilise whatever time you find

to make a thorough study of my books.

Then all your questions will be answered."

(Srila Prabhupada, 7/1/76, Letter to Upendra)

 

Devotee : "Srila Prabhupada

when you are not present with us,

how is it possible to receive instructions?

For example in questions that may arise..."

Srila Prabhupada : "Well the questions

are answ...answers are there in my books."

(Srila Prabhupada, 13/5/73, Los Angeles)

 

"If there is no chance to serve

the spiritual master directly,

a devotee should serve him by

remembering his instructions.

There is no difference between

the spiritual masters instructions

and the spiritual master himself.

In his absence therefore,

his words of direction should be

pride of the disciple."

(Srila Prabhupada, C.c. Adi 1.35, purport)

 

"Anyone who has developed

unflinching faith in the Lord

and the Spiritual Master

can understand the revealed scripture

unfolding before him.

I am sure that even if

I am not physically present before you,

still you will be able to execute

all spiritual duties in the matter

of Krsna Consciousness,

if you follow the above principles."

(Srila Prabhupada, 29/9/67, Letter to Subala)

 

"As far as my blessing is concerned,

it does not require my physical presence.

If you are chanting Hare Krsna there,

and following my instructions,

reading the books,

taking only Krsna prasadam etc.,

then there is no question of

your not receiving the blessings

of Lord Caitanya,

whose mission

I am humbly trying to push on."

(Srila Prabhupada, 30/6/74, Letter to BalaKrsna)

 

"You write that you have desire to avail

of my association again,

but why do you forget that

you are always in association with me?

When you are helping my missionary activities

I am always thinking of you,

and you are always thinking of me.

That is real association.

Just like I am always thinking of

my Guru Maharaja at every moment,

although he is not physically present,

and because I am trying to serve him

to my best capacity,

I am sure he is helping me

by his spiritual blessings.

So there are two kinds of association:

physical and preceptorial.

Physical association is not so important

as preceptorial association."

(Srila Prabhupada, 18/8/69, Letter to Govinda dd)

 

Paramananda :

"We are always feeling your presence very strongly, Srila Prabhupada,

simply by your teachings and your instructions.

We are always meditating on your instructions."

Srila Prabhupada : "Thank you.

That is the real presence.

Physical presence is not important."

(Srila Prabhupada, 6/10/77, Vrndavana)

 

"I am always with you.

Never mind if I am physically absent."

(Srila Prabhupada, 16/9/67, Letter to Jayananda)

 

"It is sometimes misunderstood that

if one has to associate with persons

engaged in devotional service,

he will not be able to solve the economic problem.

To answer this argument,

it is described here that

one has to associate with liberated persons

not directly, physically,

but by understanding,

through philosophy and logic,

the problems of life."

(Srila Prabhupada, S.B. 3:31:48, purport)

 

"Therefore we should take advantage

of the vani,

not the physical presence."

(Srila Prabhupada, 4/11/75, Letter to Suci dd)

 

"I shall remain your personal guidance,

physically present or not physically

as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja."

(Srila Prabhupada, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)

 

"Although according to material vision

His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada

passed away from this material world on

the last day of December 1936,

I still consider his Divine Grace to be

always present with me by his vani,

his words.

There are two ways of association

- by vani and by vapuh.

Vani means words

and vapuh means physical presence.

Physical presence is sometimes appreciable

and sometimes not,

but vani continues to exist eternally.

Therefore,

one must take advantage of the vani,

not the physical presence."

(Srila Prabhupada C.c. Antya, concluding words)

 

"But always remember that I am always with you.

As you are always thinking of me,

I am always thinking of you also.

Although physically we are not together,

we are not separated spiritually.

So we should be concerned only with

this spiritual connection."

(Srila Prabhupada, 13/11/69, Letter to Gaurasundara)

 

"So we should associate by vibration,

and not by the physical presence.

That is real association."

(Srila Prabhupada, 18/08/68, Lectures SB)

 

"There are two conceptions,

the physical conception and

the vibrational conception.

The physical conception is temporary.

The vibrational conception is eternal.

...When we feel separation from Krsna

or the Spiritual Master,

we should just try to remember their words

or instructions,

and we will no longer feel that separation.

Such association with Krsna and

the Spiritual Master

should be association by vibration

not physical presence.

That is real association."(Srila Prabhupada, Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, chapter 4)

 

Devotee : "...so sometimes

the Spiritual Master is far away.

He may be in Los Angeles.

Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple.

He thinks

"How will the Spiritual Master be pleased?

Srila Prabhupada : "Just follow his order,

Spiritual Master is along with you by his words.

Just like my Spiritual Master is not

physically present,

but I am associating with him by his words."

(Srila Prabhupada, 18/08/71)

 

"We are not separated actually.

There are two - Vani or Vapuh -

so Vapu is physical presence

and Vani is presence by the vibration,

but they are all the same."

(Srila Prabhupada, 22/6/70, Letter to Hamsadutta)