Let Kids be Kids?

[Redsox]

 

 

Just *why* is it so much better for kids to play with "proper" toys than it is for them to use what they can find along with their imagination?

 

Are you child psychologist? What makes you think that toys hinder imagination?

 

 

Just *why* should kids be going to school and playing games rather than working?

 

Learning for kids happens through play, they grow in their understanding of the world that way. If you provide them a safe and positive environment where this can happen then thats perfect. A child's brain is not capable of making complex choices like an adult, their brain is still growing, it is best to let it be that way.

 

 

 

 

My kids have a room that's *full* (to the point where it's hard to walk through sometimes) with toys from birthdays, Christmas, or just because Grandma saw something on sale. They hardly *ever* play with these toys. The most fun I've seen them have recently was playing with a couple of sticks in the woods or playing with seaweed and shells on the beach!

 

Donate the extra toys. or better choice would be to make them donate their toys. Teach them about compassion for those who are less fortunate, turn it into a lesson in itself.

 

Why do we feel we need to shelter our children (as did the Gautama Buddha's parents) from the "realities" of this world? Isn't that just setting them up for a future crushing disappointment?

 

Please see my earlier point where their brains are still growing and they are unable to process the information like an adult. therefore, it is best to let them develop and face the dissapointment when they are fully prepared for it.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

OK, Prabhu. I'll back off. No doubt, I have a lot to learn about suffering.

 

 

Murali I suggest you back off

 

You made a few useful points and yes Chinese toys are not that good for anyone's soul

 

But JNDas is definitely on the right track here. Those kids life is far removed from the frames of reference people live within in the West. A simple gift like a toy can really bring an overwhelming feeling of joy into their life

 

When you haven't been to Orissa or rural Bengal or Kolkata and you haven't experienced the emptiness and futility of life that so many children are experiencing every day, then just be glad that someone else is doing something to help those little kids. I've studied the faces of little children living under the arches of Howrah bridge in Kolkata and I've given money to poor people, including men whose legs were amputated after road accidents, and I didn't give because I want to stroke my ego but because my heart told me I MUST GIVE. I've no doubt JNDas is sincere in what he's doing. Repect him for that. Even if you do happen to disagree (as I do) with his other beliefs.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Donate the extra toys. or better choice would be to make them donate their toys. Teach them about compassion for those who are less fortunate, turn it into a lesson in itself.

 

I brought five 30 gallon trash bags to the Goodwill to donate--they would take them!!!! They are no longer taking toy donations because of the danger of lead contamination. So many of the toys from China have proven to be lead contaminated, that they want nothing to do with them.

 

The toys are going into the landfill.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Please see my earlier point where their brains are still growing and they are unable to process the information like an adult. therefore, it is best to let them develop and face the dissapointment when they are fully prepared for it.

 

I don't buy that crap. People follow that philosophy in the West and look what's happening. Skyrocketing rates of teen suicide, autism, depression, drug abuse--how many grammar-school kids are on speed (Ritalin) right now? That philosophy simply does not work.

 

Sorry BhaktiK-ji, I'm too emotionally-charged over this issue. I'm trying to back away--really I am.

[Redsox]

 

I don't buy that crap. People follow that philosophy in the West and look what's happening. Skyrocketing rates of teen suicide, autism, depression, drug abuse--how many grammar-school kids are on speed (Ritalin) right now? That philosophy simply does not work.

 

Sorry BhaktiK-ji, I'm too emotionally-charged over this issue. I'm trying to back away--really I am.

 

It is not a philosophy, it is modern medical science. It is up to you if you agree or not, the research and evidence supporting this science is overwhemling whether you agree or not.

Also, suicide, autism, depression and drug abuse are more rampant in countries like India than here. The media is more pervasive here in the west, so you hear about it more often in the news.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

It is not a philosophy, it is modern medical science. It is up to you if you agree or not, the research and evidence supporting this science is overwhemling whether you agree or not.

Also, suicide, autism, depression and drug abuse are more rampant in countries like India than here. The media is more prevalent here, so you hear about it more often in the news.

 

That's good for a laugh! Can you present some citations in support of that?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

"Need" is a very relative term. I didn't say that anybody "needs" or doesn't need education. I said that having an education doesn't make anybody better than somebody who is not educated.

 

You are absolutely incorrect, and hopefully one day you will have the intelligence to understand that. An uneducated child (and later uneducated adult) in orissa who cannot recognize letters or numbers, cannot count to 100, cannot sign their own name, and does not know anything about the world, is much worse off than a person who has gotten any education at all - what to speak of a High School diploma. Even 3 or 4 years education would make such a huge difference in their lives. The ability to count, add and subtract itself will completely change one's world. The ability to sign one's name and to read and understand letters will completely change one's world. Without such basic education, one's life is going to be hellish in this modern world because everyone is looking to cheat and exploit each other. These children won't even be able to file a police complaint when they are raped because they are uneducated, and the police take advantage of this every day. You have no idea what an immense difference any education makes in one's life in a third world country among an outcaste tribal people.

 

 

What is the rate of Alzheimer's disease in those villagers? Do any of them even know what it is?

 

You know why no one will ever know? Because no one can go to a doctor. When they get sick they die. Thats all there is to it. There is no diagnosis or treatment for any disease. You are so foolish that you think it means Alzheimer's doesn't exist in these villages.

 

 

You say they are starving, but haven't you heard that people who go through periods of hunger tend to live *longer*, healthier lives than people who gorge themselves on hamburgers and french fries every day?

 

 

Again you are an ignorant idiot.

 

Are you aware that some Adivasi tribes in Orissa have a life expectancy of 35.9 years? And the infant mortality rate among some tribes is 139.5 per 1,000 births? And you want to tell me that starving people live longer than "fat" americans? You are just a complete idiot. Learn something about the world before you speak such things.

 

Even the regular wealthy non tribals in Orissa have a life expectancy of just 57.6 years. Keep imagining that everyone is smiling here and the Americans are really the one's suffering.

 

Don't miss your cappuccino break. You can post your drivel any time, but cappuccino breaks can't be made up.

[Redsox]

 

That's good for a laugh! Can you present some citations in support of that?

 

Sure, its very funny. I don't have the patience to do it, if you want extensive literature on this subject , i suggest you contact someone who does this research or go google it or something. Peace!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Sure, its very funny. I don't have the patience to do it, if you want extensive literature on this subject , i suggest you contact someone who does this research or go google it or something. Peace!

 

Just like speculating that soma is a mushroom, much of what scientists think they know about human development is biased speculation.

 

Well, I *have* come across some interesting information. The scientists in whom you seem to place so much trust didn't think that women's brains were any different from men's brains until about 15 years ago. They just assumed that they were the same.

 

Here's something I had posted on another forum:

 

***

Transcribed by hand from "The Female Brain" (page 2) by Louann Brizendine, M.D. (neuropsychiatrist at UCSF, former faculty member at Harvard Medical School, and graduate of the Yale University School of Medicine and UC Berkeley):

"Until the 1990s, researchers paid little attention to female physiology, neuroanatomy, or psychology separate from that of men. I saw this oversight firsthand during my undergraduate years in neurobiology at Berkeley in the 1970s, during my medical education at Yale, and during my training in psychiatry at the Massachusetts Mental Health Center at Harvard Medical School. While enrolled at each of these institutions, I learned little or nothing about female biological or neurological difference outside of pregnancy. When a professor presented a study about animal behavior one day at Yale, I raised my hand and asked what the research findings were for females in that study. The male professor dismissed my question, stating, 'We never use females in these studies--their menstrual cycle would just mess up the data.'

The little research that was available, however, suggested that the brain differences, though subtle, were profound."

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Even the regular wealthy non tribals in Orissa have a life expectancy of just 57.6 years. Keep imagining that everyone is smiling here and the Americans are really the one's suffering.

 

No doubt 1,000 years of Mughal rule and close to 100 of British rule had nothing to do with the plight of the people there today. Haven't they suffered enough at the hands of the imperialists?

 

If you could stop sputtering in indignation for a moment, you might realize that I never said the kids need *no* education, nor did I say they ought to work day and night. I said working is often good for people and plastic toys are often *not* good for them.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Perhaps I'm just envious, Jahnava Nitai Prabhu, that *you* get to be the savior of those kids while I'm wrangling data all day.

[Redsox]

 

Perhaps I'm just envious, Jahnava Nitai Prabhu, that *you* get to be the savior of those kids while I'm wrangling data all day.

 

Being the doer rocks ,

 

too bad we are never the one.

 

I admit that there are problems with some assumptions that we make in research, but these assumptions are based on evidence. You are right though that presuppositions like "male and female brains are the same" OR "Kids who include toys in their playtime are less imaginative than kids who do not have access to toys" have the tendency to be wrong, when such things are not based on evidence-based study.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

"Kids who include toys in their playtime are less imaginative than kids who do not have access to toys" have the tendency to be wrong, when such things are not based on evidence-based study.

 

Your words, not mine. I'm saying that there's no inherent *benefit* over playing with sticks, coconut shells and mud to playing with flimsy Chinese made toys. That's all I'm saying.

 

If we want to pat ourselves on the back for getting the kids some plastic toys, I guess it's no big deal. Sorry for making such a stink (though JN's response was revelatory, I believe).

[indulekhadasi]

I appreciate what you are doing Jahnava Nitai prabhu, but I think what Murali Mohan prabhu was trying to say is that if you are going to give a toy (which I do not object to at all), why not give them a taste of the highest happiness also?

When we went to Ekachakra the kids there (who are just as poor as the kids that you showed us or maybe even poorer) were in total bliss just when we said Hare Krishna to them. So maybe you can give a toy but also give them the holy name and some prasadam, too!

 

Hare Krishna and Jai Nitai

indulekhadasi

[indulekhadasi]

 

I wish I could get my kids into Chaitanya Bhagavata (well, I guess I'd have to start with myself).

 

Both of my kids like to hear about Sri Krishna's childhood. I haven't read to them directly from Krishna Book too much, but we do have a few illustrated books from ISKCON devotees, and a couple of Amar Chitra Katha-style comic books.

 

My son is obsessed, however, with Pokemon cards and video games. I've thought how wonderful it would be if he applied that same enthusiasm towards learning about Sri Krishna and His associates, and Sriman Mahaprabhu and His associates, their various qualities, etc. I even thought about creating some sort of Krishna-conscious collectible card game (if it doesn't already exist), but I wondered how appropriate that would be.

 

The fact is, in the West, we try to artificially prolong adolescence, to the point where many people *never* really "grow up", and continue their superficial quest for mindless diversion while avoiding the deeper questions.

 

Well I think you should set a good example (which you are probably doing already). I saw my dad reading Chaitanya Bhagavata hours on end and I wondered what was in the book that made him glued to it for so long! So since my dad was reading the first volume I immediately got out the second and started reading it. I couldn't take my eyes off and I finished the book in one afternoon. So only due to my father's mercy was I able to immerse myself in these things and find so much nectar!

 

How old are your kids? If they are too young I would keep them on the Amar Chitra katha/Kiddie Krishna Book type of stuff. I am sure they would enjoy it! And I also think KC games are a great idea, they might get hooked on it!

 

Hare Krishna and Jai Nitai

indulekhadasi

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Murali,

 

Anytime you want to prove your points about the benefits of living the simple life and sending kids to the fields to work at the age of six just tell me. I will arrange a mud hut for you in their village and provide you with a hand full of rice to eat each day with some salt. Bring your son so he can go to the fields for working and learn the "good life" like the other kids. It's a serious offer. Live their life for a few weeks and then comment. Otherwise save your ignorant views for your son.

 

 

though JN's response was revelatory, I believe

 

Your own statements were quite shocking. They displayed how vaishnava philosophy in the hands of those who are not detached results in a type of intellectual madness. Speaking about the "ideals" of simple life for the poor while living a modern luxuriant life of modern "enjoyment" oneself. For example for the starving kids in Orissa you suggest: "I say, let them know of the futility of seeking lasting happiness and fulfillment in mundane life, and point them towards true spiritual happiness." But for your own son you provide a closet full of toys. The epitomy of hypocrisy. You suggest that starving children in India should be sent to the fields to work rather than educated becaue you found "your own" education useless. You suggested that starving the children was beneficial because it "increases their life span". You stated that the real people suffering are the fat people in America, not the starving children in Orissa - because starving is good for health.

 

Some of your ridiculous statements:

 

I didn't want to say anything "negative" when this was first posted, but something has been nagging at me regarding this. Just *why* is it so much better for kids to play with "proper" toys than it is for them to use what they can find along with their imagination?

 

Just *why* should kids be going to school and playing games rather than working?

...

It seems sentimental (and, ultimately, cruel) to lull children into some false sense of security. I say, let them know of the futility of seeking lasting happiness and fulfillment in mundane life, and point them towards true spiritual happiness.

...

Literacy just means that people can *read* their propaganda rather than watching it on TV.

...

I'm sure the lives of the Gopis would have been so much richer and fuller had they only learned to read.

...

I'm saying that education does not, in and of itself, improve anybody's life in any significant manner.

...

I'm also not saying the kids ought to be slaving away in the fields from sunrise to sunset, but how is watching TV and playing video games all day any better?

...

I said that having an education doesn't make anybody better than somebody who is not educated.

...

What is the rate of Alzheimer's disease in those villagers? Do any of them even know what it is?

...

You say they are starving, but haven't you heard that people who go through periods of hunger tend to live *longer*, healthier lives than people who gorge themselves on hamburgers and french fries every day?

...

Jahnava Nitai Prabhu, perhaps you feel some guilt associated with your affluence. I feel no such guilt. I feel my relative affluence to be somewhat of a curse. Because of my college degree, I can get a "cushy" job sitting at a computer, pushing a few buttons and make enough to eat like a king. However, I seldom get to sit or walk in the sunshine, I must struggle to keep my waste-line from expanding, and I spend my day associating with materialistic people.

...

I'm saying that those kids where you live are *already* seeing the futility of material life. What nonsense are *you* trying to sell them? Do you think that giving them some cheap, Chinese-made (probably made by kids and slave labor) toys (which might be contaminated with lead) is actually going to help them?

...

I feel my relative affluence to be somewhat of a curse. Because of my college degree, I can get a "cushy" job sitting at a computer, pushing a few buttons and make enough to eat like a king.

...

What's this "third world" crap? Jiva-souls are jiva souls. We're all living out our karma, both good and bad. Why get all sentimental about it?

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I appreciate what you are doing Jahnava Nitai prabhu, but I think what Murali Mohan prabhu was trying to say is that if you are going to give a toy (which I do not object to at all), why not give them a taste of the highest happiness also?

 

 

No that isn't at all what he said. He said starving children should be sent to the fields to work instead of given an education. That is an idiotic and offensive statement. I couldn't care less if you offend a religion or offend a vaishnava, but if some idiot working in silicon valley wants to offend starving children and tell them that they need to be working in the fields instead of trying to get an education, then I'm going to tell that person he is an idiot.

 

 

When we went to Ekachakra the kids there (who are just as poor as the kids that you showed us or maybe even poorer)...

 

For the record, the children in Ekachakra are not poorer than the Adivasi tribals of Orissa. I have researched this more than you, and there is no comparison. The children in the photos are wearing clothes and looking clean because someone gave them clothes. I can show you pictures of how Adivasis naturally look when not provided any assistance. Also from the perspective of health, a life expectancy of 35.9 years is also about half of the life expectancy of those children in Ekachakra.

 

There are different levels of poverty in India, and the tribals are at the very bottom of the ladder. Their life is mostly hell from birth till death. And it only takes 35 years to go from one to the other

 

 

...were in total bliss just when we said Hare Krishna to them. So maybe you can give a toy but also give them the holy name and some prasadam, too!

Whether or not we give them the holy name is irrelevant in regards to Murali's point that these children need more suffering and less happiness.

[CCC]

This post scare me

[13thMonkey]

Murali,

 

Its time to put philosophy into practice. Take up the offer and go to India and work the fields. It will be a good learning experience. Without that all your words are simply rubbish. Anyone can sit and talk all day all sorts of philosophy on the INTERNET. Why not do what you say?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Is that the Vaishnava thing to do? What is my dharma? Would going to live in India be according to my dharma? It was my karma to be born here.

 

*Everybody* who is not self-realized is suffering, whether they are rich or poor.

 

After a full day's work (I *do* manage to get some work done between posts on Audarya), I go home and care for my kids. That's my dharma. I try to remind my kids that this material life is fleeting, and that true happiness isn't found in material objects, but in devotion and service to the Lord and the Vaishnavas.

 

No doubt, I am an idiot, JN-ji, but that doesn't change the fact that buying toys for those kids does more for *you* than it does for them.

 

 

Murali,

 

Its time to put philosophy into practice. Take up the offer and go to India and work the fields. It will be a good learning experience. Without that all your words are simply rubbish. Anyone can sit and talk all day all sorts of philosophy on the INTERNET. Why not do what you say?

[rsrowland]

This is what happens when neo-hippie zealots get ahold of "eastern philosophy". Anything that increases education and the ease of life is a boon. Living simply does not mean living in a hut and working all day. It means having an unattatched mind and not indulging in luxary and "wine and women/men". Does that mean that we should not seek the scientific facts of life or the art of letters and mathematics or the institutions of medicine and law? Of course not. These are the things that help in the upliftment and further advancement of humankind. These are not luxaries...they are evolved societal neccessities! I am so sick of these hippie wannabes who whine about modern life and pine for the bliss of God and think that everything would be a-ok if we all lived in squalor and chanted "hare krishna". If you hate life so much and want to live on your cloud 9 with all the other ignorant gopis...do us a favor and shoot yourself. Telling us that the only real knowledge is knowledge of God and that life itself is useless is just sick BS. Really...if Krishna created us all as we are then why in the world are we always trying to deny ourselves of our own potential and continually beating down ourselves? You feel bad having a good job, a good family, and wealth? Oh boo hoo! Get the hell over it and ENJOY what Krishna has obviously been kind enough to give you! My goodness people...how dumb do you have to be to not take advantage of the cycle of karma when it smiles on you? Oh, wait...yeah...all of this useless and only God is what we want...damn neo-hippies. Live a friggin' REAL life and THEN get back to me about what life should be about and how we should properly enjoy it and use it to praise Krishna. Get the stick out of your bum already.

[BhaktiK]

 

No doubt, I am an idiot, JN-ji, but that doesn't change the fact that buying toys for those kids does more for *you* than it does for them.

 

Murali you really are acting like an idiot

 

Better change quick or your personality will solidify and you'll be like this permanently in your middle age.

 

 

JNDas, do you have an online account number I can transfer money to for buying some more toys for these kids. Post the account number here. I am short of cash at the moment but I can send a little. In fact I usually only spend money on living expenses and on seva but I would just like to show some support for what you are doing for those children in their villages.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Is that the Vaishnava thing to do? What is my dharma? Would going to live in India be according to my dharma? It was my karma to be born here.

You admit you have never been to this area and have never seen these suffering children, yet you want to dictate what will make them happy - even though they already know what will make them happy. You suggest what they really need is more starving (as according to you it "improves their health") and more hard work in the rice fields (as you say education is useless for them). You say that toys are definately bad for them and shouldn't be given to them, yet your son has a closet full of toys. So since you are speaking so hypocritically, the best thing for you would be to set the example and then speak.

 

And the offer remains. I will arrange a mud hut in these children's village and provide you and your son with a handful of rice every day with salt, so you can also get the "health benefits" that you claim starving provides. Spend a couple weeks in this village to learn who these children are and what will benefit them, and then speak. Otherwise don't speak about "what they need". You don't know a thing about them, so your ignorant comments don't deserve a place on the internet. Leave your place of luxory and come see one of these children face to face, and then tell us that these children need to be sent to the fields to work.

 

 

*Everybody* who is not self-realized is suffering, whether they are rich or poor.

There is gradation of suffering in this world. And a vaishnava should try his best to help others by alleviating their sufferings. That is the instruction of Bhaktivinoda Thakur:

 

 

"Those who think that devotion to God and kindness to the jivas are mutually different from each other, and perform accordingly in their life, such persons will not be able to follow the devotional culture. Their performance is only a semblance of devotion. Therefore, all the types of beneficence to others, like kindness, friendliness, forgiveness, charity, respect, etc. are included in Bhakti. Charity of medicines, clothes, food, water, etc. shelter during adversities, teaching of academic and spiritual education, etc. are the activities included in the devotional culture" - Bhaktivinoda Thakur

 

After a full day's work (I *do* manage to get some work done between posts on Audarya), I go home and care for my kids. That's my dharma. I try to remind my kids that this material life is fleeting, and that true happiness isn't found in material objects, but in devotion and service to the Lord and the Vaishnavas.

And in between your easy life you want to pass comments on starving children that they should be working in the fields rather than getting an education, and that they should be shown the sufferings of this world rather than be made happy with a toy. You know nothing of this world, so you should keep your uninformed comments for your own family. Instruct your son about the benefits of not having toys. Tell your son the benefit of not getting an education and not knowing how to count. Tell you son how it is better for him to go work in a rice field than go to school. Your are an insult to the Vaishnava religion.

 

For some people poverty is picturesque so long as it is someone else's poverty. But I welcome you to come here and learn about it first hand. Come meet the children and then comment on them.

[indulekhadasi]

 

No that isn't at all what he said. He said starving children should be sent to the fields to work instead of given an education. That is an idiotic and offensive statement. I couldn't care less if you offend a religion or offend a vaishnava, but if some idiot working in silicon valley wants to offend starving children and tell them that they need to be working in the fields instead of trying to get an education, then I'm going to tell that person he is an idiot.

 

For the record, the children in Ekachakra are not poorer than the Adivasi tribals of Orissa. I have researched this more than you, and there is no comparison. The children in the photos are wearing clothes and looking clean because someone gave them clothes. I can show you pictures of how Adivasis naturally look when not provided any assistance. Also from the perspective of health, a life expectancy of 35.9 years is also about half of the life expectancy of those children in Ekachakra.

 

There are different levels of poverty in India, and the tribals are at the very bottom of the ladder. Their life is mostly hell from birth till death. And it only takes 35 years to go from one to the other

 

 

Whether or not we give them the holy name is irrelevant in regards to Murali's point that these children need more suffering and less happiness.

 

Thanks for the info.

But I don't think you should say that the Ekachakra vasis are all well to do financially. They don't have many toys either. And I saw many kids farming in the heat of the day.

I am a Bengali and have been to many many Bengali villages and this seems to be the case even in my ancestral village. It hurts me when you say that you have even more knowledge of these matters than I do because I have a lot of experience in this as well.

And I support you in trying to make these kids happy and I think the holy name would also give them much happiness.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

But I don't think you should say that the Ekachakra vasis are all well to do financially. They don't have many toys either. And I saw many kids farming in the heat of the day.

 

There are gradations of poverty in India and the Adivasi tribals are at the bottom of the ladder. This is a documented fact. It doesn't mean the children at ekachakra aren't poor. But your claim that they are more poor than adivasi tribals isn't accurate.

 

 

I am a Bengali and have been to many many Bengali villages and this seems to be the case even in my ancestral village. It hurts me when you say that you have even more knowledge of these matters than I do because I have a lot of experience in this as well.

 

From an objective point of view the Adivasis are the poorest class in India. I have researched and worked against poverty in India for more than 10 years. I am sure you feel you know more, but I am equally certain I have studied the details of poverty in India more than you. I am sorry if that hurts you. I don't say it to try to make your opinion lesser. It is just that it is inaccurate and there are studies that have been done that prove this. Poverty is everywhere in India, but even in that poverty there are gradations. For example those who are facing starvation are worse off than those who are just poor. Those who are illiterate are worse off then those who are studying in government schools, etc.