Lord of the Flies

suchandra · December 26, 2007

Ok, dandavats.com surrendered to post SDG's announced revelation ("At a future date, this letter will be posted on the Dandavats website.") but which mysteriously appeared at first at the non-ISKCON, "independent brahminical commentary", "Sampradaya Sun". Dandavats.com urging us to not post any comments, Closure: This case concerning SDG’s relationship with Pranada is closed and not subject to reinterpretation or reopening as long as the monitor committee report indicates compliance with these measures.

Dandavat.com: Approved by the GBC EC

Satsvarupa dasa Goswami Agreement for Continuing Service in ISKCON

Satsvarupa dasa Goswami Agreement for Continuing Service in ISKCON  The following points formulated by a committee of ISKCON devotees who were delegated by the GBC Executive Committee to liaison with Satsvarupa Maharaja regarding his service in ISKCON. The following conclusions have been approved by the GBC EC.

* SDG will continue as a sannyasi in a low key profile and will assume the status of “retired” diskha guru. This means SDG will no longer give initiation nor present himself as an initiating guru. The GBC would like to encourage SDG to participate in Srila Prabhupada’s movement according to his capacity, but he will do so humbly, giving classes and traveling, but not accepting high-profile service. Disciples may refer questions to the monitor committee (see below).

* SDG has agreed to have his future publications peer reviewed prior to publication or posting.

* A monitoring committee will be formed to monitor SDG’s progress and compliance with the GBCEC approved recommendations. This committee will serve for one year and at that time provide a report to the GBC. Malati dasi, Ravindra Swarupa Prabhu and Giriraja Swami have agreed to serve on the committee (others may be added). The contact info for the monitor committee is: monitor@pamho.net. This committee will monitor his progress in accordance with these recommendations. This will include:

a) Regular contact with a committee member with a follow-up written report to the others.

b) Open door policy for godbrothers who want to visit SDG’s ashram in Delaware.

c) Report on pastoral activities including following the regulative principles, chanting, traveling to preach, receiving guests, programs, writing letters and books for disciples, visiting the Holy Dhamas, etc.

Closure: This case concerning SDG’s relationship with Pranada is closed and not subject to reinterpretation or reopening as long as the monitor committee report indicates compliance with these measures.

Letter of Satsvarupa Das Goswami

Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I understand that many devotees still have questions about my past behavior. They doubt why I continue to have a position as an ISKCON leader. Therefore I would like to clarify my falldown in 2002, my recovery, service, and relationship to ISKCON.

First of all I would like to apologize to Pranada and Nagaraja Prabhus, whom I deeply hurt and whose trust I betrayed. I genuinely apologize to all my disciples, my godbrothers and godsisters, and all members of ISKCON. I am beginning to understand the depth of the damage my behavior has caused for everyone, and the compounding of the damage by initially understating the matter.

The reaction to this fall has been devastating to the spiritual lives of so many devotees and created much mistrust in myself. As I have held a position of high honor in ISKCON my misbehavior naturally throws doubts upon other leaders in the movement. This is a disservice to ISKCON and its leaders. For this, too, I apologize sincerely. I have been praying that Lord Krsna and Srila Prabhupada forgive me. I realize that many Vaishnavas want me to be transparent and accept responsibility for my actions, so I am opening my heart to them in an attempt to bring closure to this sad chapter in my history.

When I first wrote about my relationship with Pranada Dasi, I understated the length and seriousness of it. I was frightened and wanted to protect my reputation, Pranada’s reputation, and not cause unnecessary damage to the faith of many devotees who counted on me to provide a proper example of Krsna consciousness. In retrospect this was a mistake, and I hope this letter serves to clarify matters.

As a young sannyasi I developed a secret attraction for Pranada Dasi in 1978 in Los Angeles. Later, I gave her and her husband at the time, Vadiraja Dasa, second initiation. I never revealed this attraction to her or anyone. In 1980 when Pranada Dasi’s marriage to Vadiraja dasa failed I suggested she move to Gita-nagari. Sometime later she began managing Gita-nagari Press, my tape ministry, and assisting me in a secretarial role as my typist for letters to my disciples and other duties required to fulfill my GBC responsibilities. From 1980 to 1985, due to my ongoing attraction to her, I instructed her, as her spiritual master, to do many things that were quite difficult for her. These included moving away from Gita-nagari, leaving her son behind, and getting married (I had previously insisted she vow never to remarry). After she married and moved away from my home zone my attraction subsided. Therefore, my attraction lasted about seven years.

In December of 2001, I was at a medical and spiritual low point in my life. I had wanted to tell Pranada Dasi, before I died of my old feelings for her because this was a part of my life. Naively I told her of my prior attachment to her. I did not anticipate the result of my confession, which was a revival of the old feelings. Thus began an illicit and intimate romantic phone, e-mail, and letter exchange lasting over a year. During this year she also visited me three times in Ireland, and during one such visit, there was physical intimacy.

During this time I was diagnosed with anticipatory anxiety disorder. Pranada became involved with my care team since she has some expertise in handling this disorder. Of course, this was a formula for further falldown.

However, my relationship with Pranada Dasi wasn’t the sum total of my spiritual life being at a low point. I was exhausted from the constant migraine pain and reaction to the doctor’s supervised medical regimen. This low point also manifested in several ways including reduced japa.

My simple spiritual analysis of this fall is that Krsna saw some pride in me. As a spiritual master, sannyasi, and man I failed miserably before Prabhupada and Krsna.

In November 2002 we decided to end the relationship.

The way I dealt with Pranada over the years has shaken her to the core and left her physically and emotionally devastated. I am chagrined by my behavior towards her and hope that this letter of my taking responsibility is a step toward her healing.

Since then, I have undergone four-and-a-half years of professional psychological counseling, continuing medical psychiatric care, and spiritual introspection. Over the years my medicine intake has been reduced by the doctor, so I don’t suffer from the side effects anymore—lethargy, memory loss, confusion, etc. For the sake of honesty and spiritual improvement, I feel it is necessary to make some adjustments in my service and position in ISKCON.

I am back in America (Delaware), living in a humble asrama with several men and devotee neighbors. We have a regular morning program and chanting hours. There is facility for devotees to visit, and I welcome this in a scheduled way as my improved health is allowing. I have felt the importance of senior association for my continuing recovery. I have established an open-door policy, which may be contrary to my reclusive nature, but I think it is important to implement. I will start visiting the holy dhamas in India as of January to beg forgiveness and accelerate my purification. I will occasionally travel to see devotees who may not otherwise get a chance to visit me, but in general I will remain retired from the forefront of ISKCON preaching. I will now voluntarily implement a peer review system for my publishing efforts—presently, I am continuing the series A Poor Man Reads the Bhagavatam, which should go on for the rest of my years.

I will no longer give initiation nor present myself as an initiating guru. I would encourage those who wish to take shelter of senior Vaishnavas in ISKCON for their spiritual growth to do so. Those who wish to continue as my disciples can hear from me through my books and website, through personal correspondence, and whenever possible, in person.

I am now sixty-eight years old. I wish to continue my recommitment to the sannyasa-asrama that Srila Prabhupada assigned to me.

In closing, I hope this communication will help heal the wounds and serve as a warning to others who may become lax in their Krsna consciousness as I did.

Your servant,

Satsvarupa dasa Goswami

bhaktajan · December 26, 2007

A) Originally Posted by Alex J post 72

. . . I asked him a few polite questions, and he politely gave me a bunch of references from Srila Prabhupada to look at. As I began going through the references, it was sort of an awakening for me. I had read many of these references before, when I had first went through those cantos of the Bhagavatam, years ago.Having all of the references together now, shone a light on what had been going on inside me, when I had read those things the first time. . . . .

When I first read those things, I sort of translated them inside myself. It was almost as though I read Srila Prabhupada saying "A", and then inside myself I said "Well, what he actually means here is 'B'." But of course Srila Prabhupada doesn't say "B", he says "A", but internally it was like I was censoring, or filtering his words.

A) Physical presence = Dhira = Don't be disdurbed

Sri Isopanisad 10 Purport:

. . . To follow the regulative principles, one must take shelter of a bona fide spiritual master. . . . Such knowledge does not come in the hazardous way of nescient education. One can become a dhira only by submissively hearing from a bona fide spiritual master. Arjuna, for example, became a dhira by submissively hearing from Lord Krsna, the Personality of Godhead Himself. Thus the perfect disciple must be like Arjuna, and the spiritual master must be as good as the Lord Himself. This is the process of learning vidya (knowledge) from the dhira (the undisturbed).

. . . Thus one must hear submissively from a dhira in order to attain actual education.

Ys, Bhaktajan

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………

B) Originally Posted by Alex J post 79
. . . The way I see it, a part of Krsna Consciousness is associating with devotees. . . .

B) Dear Alex-ji,

<FONT color=black>What I think would be a priceless contribution from you would be to hear the theological journey you have traveled up to and including the point of introduction to Srila Prabhupada's books. What metaphysical & philosophical [jnani] maxims have you progress through to get to the point of seeing <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com ><st1:place w:st= Krishna</st1:place> as the goal of moksa (mukti, liberation, salvation, the conclusion of vedanta)? </b></b>

<b><b><font face=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> as the goal of moksa (mukti, liberation, salvation, the conclusion of vedanta)?

Ys, Bhaktajan

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………

C) Originally Posted by Alex J post 109
Dear Beggar Prabhu,

. . . I no longer self-identify as a member of the ISKCON organization, nor have I visited an ISKCON temple for quite some time. . . .

. . . I don't live in an ISKCON community. I have some friends who still participate in the organization, to various degrees, and others who no longer do. . . .

. . . When I write about my experiences with the ISKCON organization, for me it's more about processing my past exprience, and learning from it, than it is about wanting to effect change within the organization. Certainly I would be happy to see positive change within the organization, and the healing of what I see as destructive patterns, but I don't think that I exert much energy in that direction. . . .

C) Dear Prabhujis who have had personal conflicts during the time they also associated with ISKCON,

1) Over the Christmas <st1:place w:st="on">Holiday</st1:place> I found an old tape recording of a phone conversation [from 1996] with my ex-sister in-law regarding my recent divorce and lost of child custody (with my children who were born into the Iskcon movement as vegetarians). At one point in the phone conversation I said something like, "I've given away a lot of my hindu paraphernalia and I'm having some 'political arguments' with the authorities of the Movement" —but this was not true! I was not having any 'political arguments' with the temple —I was simply working very hard at the time and so I didn't attend the temple so often.

This reminded me of the rtvik topic:

I, hereby, speculate that every person, indeed every single person who complains about the management of the Iskcon 'Household' and alleges that Iskcon Authorities are dysfunctional are actually 'transferring' their own 'un-resolved personal conflicts' upon Iskcon.

They are telling their own karmi-loved ones [family and friends] that they need not worry about being 'brainwashed' by his/her association because he/she is distancing themselves from the Iskcon Institution. While this rational is passed-on to the karmi friends and family to placate fears of cult control—they then set upon a self-perpetuating goal of fixing-up Iskcon by their own prowess.

Ys, Bhaktajan

………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

2) HH Satsvarupa's fall-down: Youth is for the young. Old age is for renunciation. We owe thanks to those who have fallen so as to show the difficulty of the path before us all.

When we are all old [lest be taken before old age] we must have gotten all seeds of lust reconciled with our own petty smallness in the cosmos.

Our lives drag on. We march through the mire of daily duties, day after day, tax day after tax day, japa bead after japa bead—all so boring and dull and plainly simple—but in the end it all passes like a cloud long gone with the wind.

This is the irony: So much time to accomplish just one overall goal, develop yourselves into honorary Old Wise Men/Women during the course of all the years of your youth—no excuse allowed at the end.

Ys, Bhaktajan

………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

D) Originally Posted by Alex J post 72:

Originally Posted by bhaktajan post 62

With all due respect I find your writtings too sentimentally dreamy [aka wishy-washy]. Devotee = " . . . The qualifications in themselves are insufficient for one to occupy the post: it must be awarded by some superior authority."

ys, bhaktajan [post 62]

Dear Bhaktajan Prabhu,

Thank you for your response. The occupation of which post are you referring to, in this context?

Sincerely,

Alex

Dear Alex-ji,

The occupation of which post I speak of is the one that engages you as an authority on the workings of Iskcon or any type of religious Institution, or any entity larger than your own household, telephone bill, electric bill, income taxes, green card status, bowel movement, heart rate during sleep, insurance premiums etc..

Ys, Bhaktajan

suchandra · December 28, 2007

2) HH Satsvarupa's fall-down: Youth is for the young. Old age is for renunciation. We owe thanks to those who have fallen so as to show the difficulty of the path before us all.

Just read at a Vaishnavi forum that the overall view is that SDG is having lots of sympathizers who say that they feel greatly worried that SDG isn't treated properly and should have some better place to live and people are moved to tears about what SDG has to go through. Yes, this makes sense, "We owe thanks to those who have fallen so as to show the difficulty of the path before us all. "

bhaktajan · December 28, 2007

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by bhaktajan

2) HH Satsvarupa's fall-down: Youth is for the young. Old age is for renunciation. We owe thanks to those who have fallen so as to show the difficulty of the path before us all.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>



Just read at a Vaishnavi forum that the overall view is that SDG is having lots of sympathizers who say that they feel greatly worried that SDG isn't treated properly and should have some better place to live and people are moved to tears about what SDG has to go through. Yes, this makes sense, "We owe thanks to those who have fallen so as to show the difficulty of the path before us all. "

Let me introduce you to the following word:

"Polyanna"

Why do I meantion this word? Because I don't know plainly and definitively what you think you want to say in the above quote!

But surely you cannot say yourself definitely what you really feel.

Evidently, you have not suffered in life, being alone and without resourses!

The lack of humanity over a Bonefide Swami's fall from grace due to the attraction for your mother [or a Devi] is not something you can reconcile.

May your disciples cling to you rather than channel surf away from you during your dark night of the soul.

Will you vote for Hillary Clinton to prove your humanitarianism?

ys,

Bhaktajan

Alex J · January 10, 2008

I, hereby, speculate that every person, indeed every single person who complains about the management of the Iskcon 'Household' and alleges that Iskcon Authorities are dysfunctional are actually 'transferring' their own 'un-resolved personal conflicts' upon Iskcon.

Dear Bhaktajan Prabhu,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. What you wrote above reminds me of the expression "atmavan manyate jagat". At various times in my life, I've heard various versions of the saying "a thief thinks that everyone else is a thief". In other words, when we look at the world, we may tend to filter it. We may tend to see the world as some combination of "how it really is" and "how we really are".

Years ago, I was impressed with Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu's "Cure of Souls" seminar. He says something similar to what I hear you saying. Below is a quote from a transcript of a portion of his seminar:

"

When people say things about ISKCON it's almost always pure autobiography. I've just seen this. It's very hard to say something about ISKCON that doesn't reflect our own spiritual state. If we're falling apart and disorganized and not together then we see ISKCON as the same way. And if we're in relatively good spiritual shape then we think ISKCON's okay. You know, could be better in many ways...It's almost always autobiography. It's the most uncanny thing. Be very careful when you make statements about ISKCON because you're really giving away a lot about yourself.

"

I experience the above quote somewhat differently today, then when I first heard it, and am less impressed by it. I would tend to paraphrase the quoted statement above, from Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu, as something like:

"

If you don't play along, then you're a bad guy. If you point out something bad in the organization, you're the bad guy for pointing it out. The person or persons engaging in the activity aren't themselves bad. You

're bad for perceiving, acknowledging and pointing out what you see and experience.

"

It's true that we can project negative qualities, which are within us, onto others in whom those same negative qualities do not dwell. The flipside is also true. People have good qualities. We can also project some of those good qualities onto others, in whom those same good qualities do not dwell.

When people are generally honest, straightforward and open, the flipside is that they may also have a tendency to be naive.

We don't want to lose those positive qualities of being open, honest and trusting, but it's good to be aware that we may tend to project our own good qualities onto the organization in a way that distorts our perception of reality. Atmavan manyate jagat.

My understanding is that in sattva guna we perceive reality more clearly, closer to how it really is. We perceive it in a way that is freer of the influence of projections and distorting filters. Becoming aware of our projections and filters can be the first step in helping us to diminish their influence on our perception.

Ananda Svarupa Prabhu's article "Vaisnava Aparadha" might also potentially be interesting in the context of the things that you've shared.

The occupation of which post I speak of is the one that engages you as an authority on the workings of Iskcon or any type of religious Institution, or any entity larger than your own household, telephone bill, electric bill, income taxes, green card status, bowel movement, heart rate during sleep, insurance premiums etc.. Ys, Bhaktajan

What if reality is an authority? I'm writing about and asserting my experience of the ISKCON organization. I'm also taking into consideration the experience of people that I've read about, those I've corresponded with, and those I've talked to. People are free to consider what they read on this forum, investigate it, look into it, experience it.

I have one comment about the excerpt you include in the previous post. In it Dhira Govinda prabhu asserts that "Srila Prabhupada would use the words 'direct link', 'primary link', 'prominent link', and 'current link'." Have you ever examined that assertion? I have, and I got no hits for any of them except for "current link," and there was only one hit for that. (There were two, but one was Pradyumna reading from the purport in the other instance is found.) Well, I did get hits for "direct link," but none was used in the way intended by PL folks.

I wonder whether this might color the way we read the excerpt you shared earlier.

I did not intend that as a rhetorical question, nor did I intend it to shut you down. I think Dhira Govinda's idea is provocative in a way that ought to generate more discussion in ISKCON than it seems to have so far. I look forward to your response.

Dear Babhru Prabhu,

Thank you for your posts and your patience. When I read the following excerpt in PL:

"

Srila Prabhupada would use the words 'direct link', 'primary link', 'prominent link', and 'current link'.

"

... I did not do subsequent research to check if Srila Prabhupada actually used those particular terms.

My understanding of what Dhira Govinda Prabhu wrote was that Srila Prabhupada WOULD use such terms to describe the members of the parampara listen in the Bhagavad Gita intro, not that Srila Prabhupada DID use such terms to describe them.

So I didn't do searches to see if Srila Prabhupada used the terms in that way. The closest excerpt from Srila Prabhupada's writings that I can think of, which seems to connect to your question is the following, from a letter to Dayananda, April 12<sup>th</sup>, 1968:

"

In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system--namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him

."

My understanding of is that Srila Prabhupada MIGHT well use terms such as "direct link", "primary link", "prominent link", and "current link" to describe the gurus listed in succession in the Gita intro. It makes sense if one considers initiation in terms of a transfer of divya-jnana.

Someone might say something like:

"

Well, how do you know what Srila Prabhupada would say? How do you know what terms he would use?

"

Part of it might be common sense. If divya-jnana is what binds us to the parampara, then some sources of divya-jnana might be more prominent and central than others, thus terms such as "primary link" and "prominent link" would make sense to me.

Since Srila Prabhupada is present, and his teachings are present, then we can say that he is available to be the current and direct link, and to bind his followers to the parampara via divya-jnana.

So I experience Dhira Govinda Prabhu as saying something to the extent that it is "reasonable to assume that Srila Prabhupada could well use those terms in that way".

The paragraph in which is found the excerpt that you refer to, begins with the words: "Inherent in assertions are axiomatic assumptions. An assumption of The Prominent Link, and it could be questioned, and this would form the basis for an interesting discussion, is that ..."

If the founder acarya of a mission is more prominent than the one or many current gurus then it is only natural that devotees will want to read his books and listen to the electronic recordings of his talks and bhajans etc. But the extended ISKCON family is very large and in the Gour Govinda Maharaja (apparently deceased) part of that family they firmly believe that their link is both Gour Govinda Maharaja and Prabhupada. Are they to be considered in some illusion? What about Satsvarupa Maharaja's disciples? After his most recent confession, extremely embarrasing confessions, if some his disciples decide to stick with him, then how could they not see that Srila Prabhupada is infinitely more prominent?

Dear Beggar Prabhu,

In considering your words above, tend to go back to basic principles. If I see someone as receiving divya-jnana from both Gour Govinda Swami and Srila Prabhupada, then I could say that the person is being linked to the parampara by both people, perhaps in different ways and to different degrees. This puts aside, for now, the issue of whether the transfer of teachings that is taking place between the student and the two teachers is truly a transfer of divya-jnana at the level of diksa, or whether the transfer of teachings is better described by the word siksa.

The question about those who self-identify as followers of Gour Govinda Swami may relate to the things discussed in the Scenarios section of PL. Depending on the relationship, these people may see Gour Govinda Swami as either their primary or secondary link to the parampara. In the PL model, it would be seen as most healthy if they were to see, experience, and relate to Srila Prabhupada as their primary link to the parampara, and their main point of surrender. Since the PL model is open to the experiences of Vaisnavas, one espousing that model wouldn't say that those who self-identify as followers of Gour Govinda Swami are in maya. Still, it would be seen as preferable, by those who espouse the PL model, for those who see themselves as primarily followers of Gour Govinda Swami to come to a PL understanding.

Murali Mohan Prabhu, I acknowledge that I have not yet responded to your question. I take your question seriously, and I plan to respond. I thank you for your continued patience with me.

Sincerely,

Alex

Beggar · January 10, 2008

Srila Prabhupada: El Vinculo Prominente

Dear Bhakta Alejandro de Grande,

What if some one has a special place in their heart for Srila Prabhupada, was originally in ISKCON but has now taken shelter of an Indian guru from a post-Gaudiya Math, math? What is the obligation of their heart to Srila Prabhupada for giving them their start and a foundation in Krsna Consciousness? In a way, everyone in the lands outside India could (if they were willing) trace their connection to Krsna Consciousness to Srila Prabhupada's preaching, especially his books and BTG Magazine. But now they have met a guru who they believe is also on the transcendental platform and therefore give much prominence to him. Also some of these gurus had close association with Srila Prabhupada in India over the years. This may not be directly in the writings of Dhira Govinda Prabhu, but would it be possible to apply this system in such a universal manner, beyond the purview of ISKCON both institutional and non-institutional?

suchandra · January 10, 2008

But now they have met a guru who they believe is also on the transcendental platform and therefore give much prominence to him.

"So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master, vibration."

Could be that vibration means, Prabhupada's books, letters and lectures.

Lecture - Los Angeles, January 13, 1969

Adi-lila 1.35

"THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER'S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple."

77-03-12 Letter: Rajarsi

"PERSONAL SERVICE TO THE SPIRITUAL MASTER MEANS TO FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS."

75-03-14 Letter: Sivani

"To take SHELTER of the Spiritual Master MEANS TO FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS."

SB 4.31.2

"One desiring perfection or liberation SHOULD ASSOCIATE WITH A PERSON WHO IS ALREADY LIBERATED. THIS IS CALLED SADHU-SANGA, ASSOCIATING WITH A PERFECT DEVOTEE."

EK 4

"WHEN WE FEEL SEPARATION FROM KRSNA OR THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, WE SHOULD JUST TRY TO REMEMBER THEIR WORDS OF INSTRUCTIONS, AND WE WILL NO LONGER FEEL THAT SEPARATION. SUCH ASSOCIATION WITH KRSNA AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER SHOULD BE ASSOCIATION BY VIBRATION, NOT PHYSICAL PRESENCE. THAT IS REAL ASSOCIATION."

680818SB.MON Lectures

"SO WE SHOULD GIVE MORE STRESS ON THE SOUND VIBRATION, EITHER OF KRSNA OR OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER. THEN WE'LL FEEL HAPPY AND NO SEPARATION."

CC Concluding Words

"PHYSICAL PRESENCE IS SOMETIMES APPRECIABLE AND SOMETIMES NOT, BUT VANI CONTINUES TO EXIST ETERNALLY. THEREFORE WE MUST TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE VANI, NOT THE PHYSICAL PRESENCE."

75-11-04 Letter: Suci

"PHYSICAL PRESENCE IS SOMETIMES APPRECIABLE AND SOMETIMES NOT. THEREFORE WE SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE VANI, NOT THE PHYSICAL PRESENCE, BECAUSE THE VANI CONTINUES TO EXIST ETERNALLY."

70-06-22 Letter: Hamsaduta

"IF YOU KINDLY TRY TO FULFILL MY MISSION FOR WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN SENT THERE, THAT WILL BE OUR CONSTANT ASSOCIATION."

73-11-25. Letter: Cidananda

"Just like I have written in the first publications of Srimad-Bhagavatam, "THE SPIRITUAL MASTER LIVES FOREVER BY HIS DIVINE INSTRUCTION AND THE DISCIPLE LIVES WITH HIM.", because I have always served my Guru Maharaja and followed His teachings I am now even never separated from Him. Sometimes Maya may come and try to interfere but we must not falter, we must always follow the chalked out path layed down by the great acharya's and in the end you will see."

mud · January 10, 2008

In the PL model, it would be seen as most healthy if they were to see, experience, and relate to Srila Prabhupada as their primary link to the parampara, and their main point of surrender. Since the PL model is open to the experiences of Vaisnavas, one espousing that model wouldn't say that those who self-identify as followers of Gour Govinda Swami are in maya. Still, it would be seen as preferable, by those who espouse the PL model, for those who see themselves as primarily followers of Gour Govinda Swami to come to a PL understanding.

:crazy: This is where PL falls short. No, this is not just falling short, this is just bad philosophy, which puts PL squarely in the apasiddhanta category along with ritvik and Iskcon rubber stamping guru. Thank you for such a clear example.

Prominent Link is just another version of legislating faith. Sraddha is the essence of the relationship with guru; siksa or diksa. You know there is something wrong when ritvik people come on a mission to mold your faith, to bend your faith, to convince you to share their faith - that Srila Prabhupada is the only diksa guru from 1977 on. There is also something wrong with an ecclesiastical body "authorizing" someone to be guru or denying someone of the ability to be guru. Similarly, there is something profoundly wrong with Dhira Govinda or anybody else intruding on a person's sacred faith and either subtley (by saying it is preferable) or grossly (mandating) that Srila Prabhupada is and should be their primary guru. Open to the experience of vaishnavas?? Bull! Open to the experience of vaishnavas means open to their heart, their faith, the faith that moves them. Openness to that faith manifests as an open heart, willing to hear, respect and be moved, maybe even influenced(!) by the beautiful way that svarupa shakti has manifested in their lives. How nice. Just leave it alone, and honor it!

Alex J · January 10, 2008

What I think would be a priceless contribution from you would be to hear the theological journey you have traveled up to and including the point of introduction to Srila Prabhupada's books. What metaphysical & philosophical [jnani] maxims have you progress through to get to the point of seeing as the goal of moksa (mukti, liberation, salvation, the conclusion of vedanta)? Krishna as the goal of moksa (mukti, liberation, salvation, the conclusion of vedanta)? Ys, Bhaktajan

Dear Bhaktajan Prabhu,

I'm not sure if what I wrote below is what you're looking for, but it may give an idea about how I got to where I am today.

I came in contact with the devotees through bands like Shelter and 108 in 1995. It was my first year of university and I happened to read an interview with Ray Cappo/Raghunath. I was surprised how a guy in his twenties could know so much about philosophy. He seemed to be saying stuff that was much more profound than what I'd read from people who were much older. I became curious. I sent away for "Krishnacore" CDs when ever I had money available. I also read numerous fanzines that had articles on Krsna Consciousness.

I eventually started corresponding, a little bit, with Rasaraja Prabhu of 108, this was when he was at 26 2nd avenue with his wife. I eventually started chanting Hare Krsna, reading Srila Prabhupada's books, listening to lectures, watching videos. I visited the Ottawa temple regularly.

I was both attracted to Krsna Consciousness and creeped out by certain aspects of it. Certain "heavy" statements by Srila Prabhupada both attracted me and creeped me out. I was attracted because the statements resonated with me and felt true. "Wow! Someone actually telling it like it is", I thought. I was creeped out in part because the statements could be misused. I found the devotees a mixture of being inspiring, amazing, attractive and creepy, culty, unthinking, confused, with blinders on, etc.

One of the first books I read about KC was "Monkey on a Stick" (MOAS). I think I read it right after I had read one Srila Prabhupada's "small books". I didn't want to ignore the ugly realities of what has happened.

In 1995, I was disturbed when I asked devotees questions about things like guru falldowns, child sexual abuse, ritvik, etc. The devotees I asked seemed to be as confused as I was. Here I was, a newcomer, looking for some insights from more experienced people, I thought "Oh my God, they're just as lost as I am..." And this included devotees who I looked up to and didn't find creepy.

One of the things that attracted me to Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu, at the time, was that what I perceived as his willingness to talk about some of the ugly things in ISKCON. I liked that he had been in MOAS and that he had been involved in guru reform. I admired his intelligence and the way he could form a bridge between Srila Prabhupada's writings and the world view that I had at the time. Though I was attracted to Srila Prabhupada, I also had doubts about him. One of my early doubts was due to my having read and internalized Mayavadi books, in my time leading up to coming in contact with Srila Prabhupada. I had read about religion in high school, and Mayavada philosophy seemed to me, at the time, like the only thing that made sense out of the plurality of religious experiences.

When I read Srila Prabhupada's Sri Isopanisad, the idea that God could be a person began to be present in my heart. I wanted to believe it, but I wasn't convinced. I still saw saw personalism as a lower form of spirituality, something primitive and sectarian. I wanted to believe that God was a person, but I thought that this desire was ultimately maya, a primative form of self-delusion on my part. But I thought, "Well, if I'm in maya, maybe this is what I need to do anyway, even though I don't believe it". I had had a desire to worship something for some time, I just assumed that I was too covered to do impersonal meditation and that while I was still in ignorance I would worship a personal God. Even though I believed that this was an illusion that I would eventually have to give up.

As I began to experience the effects on chanting Hare Krsna on my psychology I was amazed. I began to entertain the possibility that God was in fact a person, but I was still not convinced. I became more convinced after listening to a 20-tape lecture series by Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu called "Defeating Mayavada Philosophy". It didn't address all of my doubts in this area, but many of them. It dealt with enough of them that I felt that personalism was true, was rational and could be defended by more than just appeals to authority.

I also liked many other lecture series of RSP's. Amoung them were "Intelligence and Supersoul" (about how the non-liberated person can experience the workings of Paramatma, SB second canto) "The Three Modes of Material Nature", "Political Science for the Age of Kali" (covering topics like Pariksit Maharaja and a political philosopher named Eric Voegelin), "Cure of Souls: A Look at ISKCON Pathologies" (about pastoral counsceling and the work of Anton T. Boisen).

The "guru issue" continued to trouble me. I asked people and never got an answer that made sense. When I asked RSP he seemed to me to just side-step the question. I corresponded with him for a while, at time writing about two letters a week, and receiving responses. I sent him small monthly donations. I eventually wrote to him asking for "initiation", though still feeling divided and unsure. I told him also about my feeling unsure and divided. In the days leading up to the initiation I was praying to Krsna, asking what I should do. I eventually took initiation into the ISKCON organization, and in the end it meant very little to me.

After living with Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu for six months, and seeing how he interacted with me and others, I feel that I don't like him, and don't want to be like him. I received my name Abhayasraya dasa in 2000. I've only written RSP maybe four times since then, whereas I used to do it every two weeks or so.

I feel very grateful to him. I honestly feel that he gave me things that I did not get from Prabhupada's books and lectures, or at least that I did not notice them if they were there. I feel that I have a deeper appreciation of what Srila Prabhupada is giving. Before having listened to many of RSP's lecture tapes I feel that I had really underestimated Srila Prabhupada. It makes me think of a quote by some writer who said "When an ass looks into a book, don't expect and angel to look out". But eventually, with some help, I saw the angel.

But in addition to the good things I got, I think I chose to internalize certain ideas and attitudes that I don't share, and which I don't believe to be rooted in reality. I was so impressed with Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu, that I was willing to take his word for it on certain issues, and assume that he simply understood the situation better than I did. I am no longer sure that this is true in all cases.

I had doubts about RSP in the year leading up to formal ISKCON "initiation". I had come out of an emergency life-saving heart and lung surgery in 1999, and also my sadhana was starting to suffer. I wrote about it to RSP and was a bit surprised by his response. He was encouraging, and I appreciated that, but my sadhana struggles and difficulties seemed not to be as big of a deal to him.

After formal initiation, my sadhana declined rapidly, faster than before. I felt angry and divided about my experience in Philadelphia. I rarely went to the Ottawa temple anymore. Mostly I went to the restaurant, and I bowed in front of the Deities, which were behind a curtain when the restaurant was open. In a way it wasn't a big deal, my temple attendance had already declined in the time leading up to my formal "initiation" ceremony. The whole thing, "initiation", was demoralizing for me. I knew it was part of the program, but it just didn't make any sense at all. I haven't gone to the temple in about a year or so. Truth be told, the longer I'm away from the temple, the better and saner I feel, and the more enthused I feel about Krsna Consciousness.

In a way I'm happy that I went through with it all, because now I know what it's like from experiencing it. I can't be accused of licking the honey jar and trying to taste the honey inside. I followed the program, it felt suffocating, and I eventually wanted out.

Today, I find myself slowly excavating the person I was in 1995, the one with all the un-answered questions about guru-tattva, and about other issues as well. I feel more joyful because I seem to be getting back to the original innocent enthusiasm that I felt them back in 1995. I feel less jaded, and less bitter. What's even better, is that in 1995 I didn't have any deeply-satisfying answers to my questions about guru-tattva, but now I've come across some people that seemed to think about guru-tattva sort of like I did. I can discuss with them, and endeavor to clarify for myself this important question. And this clarification, I believe, is leading me to a return to the healthy and satisfying sadhana that I had in 1995. I feel the gradual change in me, taking place over the past few years. Chanting feels better than it has in a long time, it reminds me of how I chanted in 1995.

The name Abhayasraya, that I got from RSP, means something like: one who is fearless by having taken shelter of God. "Abhaya" means fearless, and "ashraya" means shelter. So it's a compound term...Abhayasraya. I think I like Alex better, at least for now.

bhaktajan · January 10, 2008

A Poet and a Scholar has been inspired!

Bhaktajan

Penned by Mud
Open to the experience of vaishnavas

means open to their heart,

their faith,

the faith that moves them.

Openness to that faith manifests

as an open heart,

willing to hear,

respect and be moved,

maybe even influenced(!)

by the beautiful way

that svarupa shakti has

manifested in their lives.

How nice.

Just leave it

alone, and honor it!

......................................................................

Originally Posted by bhaktajan

What I think would be a priceless contribution from you would be to hear the theological journey

Alexji, I've not read your piece yet--It's like a plate of maha-prasadam that one puts aside to relish it latter during a moments repose.

[i got a junk email earlier this morning --"Millionaire looking for help to transfer money by way of my own money..." --I deleted it.]

My point is that the letter began a length to give a biography 'to elict' my personal empathy, but it was a known scam.

But, your personal history is the made of the best of the best of human-expereience--this is what makes for true "movers and shakers".

I look foward to reading your work.

ys,

Bhaktajan

PS: There is a thread from last week "How did you come to KC?"--you might add this posting to it.

PPS: Hable espanol? Estoy buscando copias de El Isopanisad (Sectretos de otro Tiempos) no ay ningina en todo de Neuva York, El Bronx, ni Brooklyn. Por favor diga ma si puedes encontre ciquentra o cien copias por mi jentes pobre aqui.

Murali_Mohan_das · January 10, 2008

Just read at a Vaishnavi forum that the overall view is that SDG is having lots of sympathizers who say that they feel greatly worried that SDG isn't treated properly and should have some better place to live and people are moved to tears about what SDG has to go through. Yes, this makes sense, "We owe thanks to those who have fallen so as to show the difficulty of the path before us all. "

Such is the beautiful "logic" of the Gopis.

If only we men could be so "foolish".

Murali_Mohan_das · January 10, 2008

Evidently, you have not suffered in life, being alone and without resourses!

The lack of humanity over a Bonefide Swami's fall from grace due to the attraction for your mother [or a Devi] is not something you can reconcile.

May your disciples cling to you rather than channel surf away from you during your dark night of the soul.

Beautiful!!!!!!!

Murali_Mohan_das · January 10, 2008

73-11-25. Letter: Cidananda
"Just like I have written in the first publications of Srimad-Bhagavatam, "THE SPIRITUAL MASTER LIVES FOREVER BY HIS DIVINE INSTRUCTION AND THE DISCIPLE LIVES WITH HIM.", because I have always served my Guru Maharaja and followed His teachings I am now even never separated from Him. Sometimes Maya may come and try to interfere but we must not falter, we must always follow the chalked out path layed down by the great acharya's and in the end you will see."

Assuming there isn't more than one disciple of Srila Prabhupada named "Cidananda", do you know who/where Cidananda Prabhu is today?

I'll give you a hint: he's serving at the feet of a pure Vaishnava.

Murali_Mohan_das · January 10, 2008

Way to tell it like it is!!!

Clear as mud, er, pure water.

This is where PL falls short. No, this is not just falling short, this is just bad philosophy, which puts PL squarely in the apasiddhanta category along with ritvik and Iskcon rubber stamping guru. Thank you for such a clear example.
Prominent Link is just another version of legislating faith. Sraddha is the essence of the relationship with guru; siksa or diksa. You know there is something wrong when ritvik people come on a mission to mold your faith, to bend your faith, to convince you to share their faith - that Srila Prabhupada is the only diksa guru from 1977 on. There is also something wrong with an ecclesiastical body "authorizing" someone to be guru or denying someone of the ability to be guru. Similarly, there is something profoundly wrong with Dhira Govinda or anybody else intruding on a person's sacred faith and either subtley (by saying it is preferable) or grossly (mandating) that Srila Prabhupada is and should be their primary guru. Open to the experience of vaishnavas?? Bull! Open to the experience of vaishnavas means open to their heart, their faith, the faith that moves them. Openness to that faith manifests as an open heart, willing to hear, respect and be moved, maybe even influenced(!) by the beautiful way that svarupa shakti has manifested in their lives. How nice. Just leave it alone, and honor it!

Murali_Mohan_das · January 10, 2008

Alex, I find a lot more inspiration and encouragement in your personal testimonial than in anything you might quote from PL.

suchandra · January 10, 2008

Assuming there isn't more than one disciple of Srila Prabhupada named "Cidananda", do you know who/where Cidananda Prabhu is today?

I'll give you a hint: he's serving at the feet of a pure Vaishnava.

Thanks so much Murali Mohan, you mean he became your Godbrother, this is good news!

Almost today around 10th of January 1971 Prabhupada wrote to SDG that he wants a daily newspaper being implemented. Could be that for this reason the internet was invented, to easily enable widespread daily krishna-katha. Let's hope that all Vaishnavas understand this mission and take up this great chance:

"I hear from all our centers that they have instituted regular classes for writing articles and still you say they do not contribute sufficiently to Back to Godhead. How is that? I want all our students to write articles for our transcendental magazine. That is practical. Karandhara has also written that my long desired scheme of a Krsna Conscious daily newspaper is being implemented. Please do this work very nicely. It will be a very great step in the history of ISKCON movement.

Regarding your proposal to approach important persons to help us in this work, I am sorry to note a consideration of some false ``Trust Fund.'' Such false things have no value either for us or anyone else.

I am awaiting your next letters of progress and newsletters also. Hope this will meet you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

P.S. What action you have taken on the Mayavadi Sannyasi?

full letter

Murali_Mohan_das · January 10, 2008

Thanks so much Murali Mohan, you mean he became your Godbrother, this is good news!

Not exactly. He remains a diksha disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and still gives all honor to his Gurudev.

He took sannyas from Srila Gurudev and preaches in praise of and on behalf of all of his gurus to appreciative audiences worldwide.

Sripad Bhakti Premik Siddhanti Maharaja (formerly Chidananda Brahmachari) pictured on our right (to the left of Sripad Giri Maharaja and Sripad Aranya Maharaja):

Alex J · January 11, 2008

Open to the experience of vaishnavas?? Bull! Open to the experience of vaishnavas means open to their heart, their faith, the faith that moves them. Openness to that faith manifests as an open heart, willing to hear, respect and be moved, maybe even influenced(!) by the beautiful way that svarupa shakti has manifested in their lives. How nice. Just leave it alone, and honor it!

Dear mud Prabhu,

Thank you for your response. I agree with what you wrote about the value of having an open heart, being willing to hear others, being willing to be moved and influenced by them. I find openness towards the experience of others to be present in PL.

That being said, I can honestly say that I have preferences, and my own preference is part of what attracts me to PL. I acknowledge and accept that not everyone shares my preferences, nor do I expect or demand that everyone share those preferences. Beggar Prabhu asked an honest question, and I replied.

Below is an excerpt from PL that touches on the topic of legislating faith:

"We are almost equally confident that the PL model should be embraced as the preferred model for Srila Prabhupada's movement. However, there are many sincere devotees who are apparently not experiencing reality as described in PL, and who are doing well in their spiritual lives and making valuable contributions to Srila Prabhupada's mission. We believe that their position would be more secure if they came to the PL realization. But we may rightly be accused of presumptuousness in this belief, and thus we are open to the possibility that their experience is as valid and healthy as if they were consistent with the PL model. Therefore, in PL the PL model is presented, theoretically, as the preferred model, while acknowledging that we need to be open to the potential for other understandings being equally legitimate."

Sincerely,

Alex

Alex J · November 21, 2010

Hello all,

I hope you're all doing well. I wanted to share something with you all. I'm sharing it in this thread, because this is the last thread that I posted in on this forum, and also because I think it ties in to some of the topics in the thread.

A while back I read the following excerpt from a post that Jagadananda wrote on the Audarya Fellowship forum, and found it interesting:

-----------------------------

After carefully going through Brahmana o Vaishnava (the text of the speech Siddhanta Saraswati gave in Balighai, Medinipur in 1911), I believe that the cornerstone of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's reform consisted in devaluating Pancharatrika initiation in favour of a new concept, that of Bhagavati diksha. He explains Bhagavati diksha in Brahmana o Vaishnava as being equivalent to the instruction Hari Das Thakur to the prostitute, where Hari Das says that he has taken diksha (Prabhupada translates "vow") in the sacrifice of the Holy Name, i.e., of chanting a crore of names in a month).

I assume that since there is little to support Saraswati's ever taking Pancharatrika diksha from Gaura Kishor Das Babaji, and it also seems that the timing is right (Saraswati took initiation from GKDB in 1901 and started his billion name vow not long thereafter), that this is how Saraswati understood Bhagavati initiation.

Saraswati may have meant more than simply Hari Nam initiation, as the expression "bhajana siksha" is also bandied about, but he also argues that mantra-initiation is not particularly important since archana as a devotional process is secondary to chanting the Holy Name, to which end he quotes the relevant Bhagavata- sandarbha section on the necessity of being initiated to engage in archana.

Furthermore, the Bhagavata parampara does not seem to need a direct physical connection with the preceding acharya, so it is not altogether out of the question that Saraswati intended (or would have approved) an institution modeled along the lines that you and the Ritviks describe. Even so, since I assume that you would consider puja or archan to be a necessary part of Prabhupada's institution, some kind of Pancharatrika initiation would be necessary for that purpose. Some kind of ritual initiation signifying membership in the institution would also presumably be part of your vision. This has traditionally been one of the functions of the Pancharatrika initiation, so why not connect the two? It seems more logical to identify the connection as being directly with Prabhupada rather than eliminating initiation entirely.

---------------------

In addition to the above excerpt, I wanted to share an article that I submitted to the Sun a while back, but which didn't get published. I'm including it at the end of this message. I've shared it with a few friends, and got some nice feedback, so it felt like a waste to not to share it a bit more widely. It's pretty long.

At the end of that article, I also ask a question about an excerpt attributed to Srila Prabhupada, which doesn't appear in the Vedabase, as far as I know. I've recently been informed by email that the lecture that the excerpt comes from, or at least a part of that lecture, will appear in the next version of the Vedabase.

On the topic of "bhagavati diksa", there's a six-page pdf document, a compilation of forum posts by someone else, that can be downloaded from the following Mediafire link:

a post compilation about 'bhagavati diksa'.pdf

Some of the quotes in the above-linked pdf document also get quoted in my article, but some of them don't. I came in contact with this pdf only after writing and submitting my article. There's some overlap, but there's some new stuff as well. At least stuff that was new for me, when I first read it.

Since writing the article below, I've started slowly reading an English translation of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's "Brahmana o Vaishnava".

All the best,

Alex

------------

"Bhagavati diksa"

BY: ALEX J.

Sep XX, OTTAWA, CANADA (SUN) - I want to thank Harakumara and Hasti Gopala for their recent articles. Hasti Gopala's was beautiful in its simplicity. I want to thank Jalakara for "The Sons of the Son: The Breakup of the Gaudiya Matha". I also feel grateful for a number of things that I've read from Mahesh Raja, on the topic of what constitutes actual diksa. I maintain gratitude to Dhira Govinda for his PL writings. And I want to thank George A. Smith, who's recent article inspired me to compile what you're reading now. In George's "Formal Initiation is a Formality" we read:

"

In response to Rasaprema's conviction that his interpretation of the word 'initiation' as referring to the formal ceremony commonly referred to as dika is the correct one, and that therefore everyone must undergo this formal rite in order to receive spiritual initiation, the Rtviks have responded in agreement, only differing in minor details of how it should be conducted within ISKCON. I have responded differently than the Rtviks, with the counterclaim that what Rasaprema believes to be an 'essential' element of Vaisnava Sadhana that is applicable to all times, places and circumstances is not, and that it is only a mere formality.

"

Let's say that initiation's a mango. We know from Srila Prabhupada's Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, that...

"

If we want to purchase a mango from the market, we must at least know what type of food a mango is and what it looks like.

"

A while back I read a forum thread entitled "Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Never Received Initiation". I'll assert that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta did receive initiation. But let's also keep in mind that the mango's not the box it comes in. Next is a snippet from that thread. Just reading it makes me curious to learn more about Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's book "Brahmana and Vaisnava".

"

Siddhanta Saraswati himself NEVER claimed to have received initation according the Pancaratra rules from Babaji Maharaj, but a so called Bhagavati diksha, and this is why the so called parampara of the GM have been entitled 'bhagavat parampara'. The matter of fact the corner stone of the 'ritwiks' is Siddhanta Saraswati.

"

In his 'Brahman o Vaishnava' book, he specifically states that the so called Bhagavata parampara is not dependent on Pancharatrika initiation. Saraswati deliberately separated himself from the Pancharatrika 'mantra businessmen' and started a new 'sampradaya'.

"

What is interesting, is that subsequent to Saraswati Thakur, in the Gaudiya Math has been introduced the usual type of diksha according Pancaratra. But the Ritvikvadis, for instance, claim that the system of Bhagavati initiation to Srila BV Prabhupada is possible, and that the 'external' act of initiation according Pancaratra would be a mere formality. This was exactly Saraswati Thakur's position.

"

Pretty juicy, no? The author of the above text, though he may not be a follower of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, does have something of value to offer those of us who are. For our purpose, in the above quoted text ignore the two instances of the words "so called", and take the shutter quotes off the word "sampradaya". Can we move on? Let's move on.

Here's an excerpt from a blog post by Jan Brzesinski (Jagadananda, formerly Hiranyagarbha):

"

There were many reasons that Saraswati Thakur felt incapable of reforming Gaudiya Vaishnavism from within the system, so he broke away. But break away he did, let us make no mistake. I repeat this again for all those in the Gaudiya Math and Iskcon who still try to establish some kind of diksha relationship between the various members of their Parampara system. Saraswati Thakur created a new, Bhagavati parampara, whose basis is not Pancharatrika initiation

."

Before we jump to the next quote, let's get some things straight. For our purpose, let's understand the words "diksha relationship" in the text above as referring to a ceremony, or as he writes later on: "Pancharatrika initiation". Remember, the mango's not the box. There may well be a real diksa relationship between the various members of our parampara, and if we're not blinded by the conception of diksa as a ceremony, then we can see that relationship.

Getting back to the previously-mentioned forum thread ("Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Never Received Initiation"), we look at another excerpt:

It might be said that diksha has been reduced to one of these definitions:

1. The transmission of the desire to serve (i.e., the conversion experience is the real initiation; or the "planting of the bhakti-lata bija"), t

2. The giving of the order to engage in Harinam. (Saraswati quotes the use of the word diksha in Haridas Thakur's speech to the prostitute from Chaitanya Charitamrita as support.)

3. A wholehearted commitment to the teachings of the guru.

Stay with me, we still have a way to go. The following I transcribed from Jan Brzezinski's article that appears in the book "The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant". "Bhagavati diksa" is a good term to keep in mind as we travel through this stuff, so as to help us stay focused on the essence of initiation.

"

There are different ideas about the type of initiation Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati received: according to some biographers he was given mantra, according to others it was bhagavati diskha. Not surprisingly, bhagavati diksa is a concept unfamiliar to most people, even those within the Gaudiya Math, as the only kind of initiation current in Vaishnava circles has always been the pancharatrika type, which consists of standard initiatory rituals. The result is that many have wasted much time and effort unnecessarily trying to establish that Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati received pancharatrika-type mantra initiation from Gaura Kishor Das.

"

We get an idea of what Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati meant by bhagavati diksha from his Brahmana o Vaishnava essays, where he cites the example of Hari Das Thakur, a Muslim convert, who likely never received pancharatrika initiation

."

(...)

"

Thus Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati says, 'This Tattva-vada, or Pancharatrika system, is not acceptable in the opinion of Sri Chatitanya Mahaprabhu. Rather he taught the path of bhagavata-marga'

"

(1) Srila Bhaktisiddhanta received initiation. (2) The mango is not the box. Keeping those two guiding principles in front of us, we move forward. Again we find ourselves at the previously-mentioned forum thread, where we read:

"

However, the majority of people in Iskcon and the Gaudiya Math have either not understood or not been able to communicate this fundamental premise about initiation, even though Sridhar Maharaj clearly stated that the Gaudiya Math was a 'siksha' sampradaya, not a 'diksha' sampradaya. But Pancharatrika initiation is necessary for an institution, to establish legitimacy. And this is why Pancharatrika norms have been introduced in the period subsequent to Saraswati Thakur.

"

We have to be clear on what diksa actually is. Mistaking the mango for the box can cause heartache, and can cause us to side-step the nourishment that is the mango.

People who've been in contact with the Hare Krsnas for some time eventually become aware of the controversy about how Srila Bhaktisiddhanta supposedly never received initiation. It struck me a while ago that this controversy frames "initiation" in a certain way. And only via that particular frame is there any cause for controversy.

If we understand diksa as based on the transmission of sound vibration and transcendental knowledge, from the realized teacher to the heart of the qualified student, at a certain stage of the student's development, then there's really no cause for controversy. Things only get messy and controversial if we understand diska primarily as a ceremony.

The ISKCON organization's Bhakti Vikasa wrote a 3-volume book about Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. I haven't read it. But in the forum thread that I keep quoting from, we find the following excerpt from the book, transcribed by a forum poster. The emphasis is added by the poster:

"

In 1932 Visvambharananda dasa Babaji, on behalf of many babajis and caste Goswamis in Vrndavana, published a book opposing Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and his Mission, citing extensively from sastra to support his arguments. He challenged that the line of parampara traced from Jagannatha dasa Babaji through Bhaktivinoda Thakura to Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji and then to Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was unauthorized. Visvambharananda claimed that although Sarasvati Thakura was supposed to be the disciple of Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji, he was disqualified in several ways. First, Sarasvati Thakura did not accept as bona fide the recognized lineage of Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji, whose guru was in the Advaita-parivara. Furthermore, since Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji had never used a japa-mala, and had not given one to Sarasvati Thakura at the time of initiation but had simply placed some Navadvipa dust into his hand, Visvambharananda argued that such an initiation was not bona fide.

The implication was that Sarasvati Thakura had not actually received pancaratrika-diksa from Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji, so how could he confer it upon others?

Nor had Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji worn a brahmana thread,

so on what authority did Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati wear one?

"

Moreover, Visvambharananda argued, Sarasvati Thakura claimed to be a follower of Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who was initiated by the caste Goswami Bipina Bihari. Why then did Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati not accept guru-parampara by seminal descent?

Bhaktivinoda Thakura had given him a Nrsimha mantra for worshiping the Deity, yet Sarasvati Thakura was giving a Radha-Krsna mantra for this purpose. Wherefrom did he derive this mantra, and on whose authority did he distribute it?

Visvambharananda further objected that since Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was a sannyasi without a sannyasa guru, how could he give sannyasa to others?

"

Sarasvati Thakura responded by explaining the concept of bhagavata-parampara, or siksa-parampara. He maintained that the essence of parampara lies in the transmission of transcendental knowledge, not merely in a list of contiguous names. The life of the parampara is maintained by the maha-bhagavatas, who embody the essence of scriptural knowledge. Therefore, to trace the parampara through such maha-bhagavatas truly represents parampara.

"

He said, 'Bhaktivinoda Thakura is Kamala Manjari, a personal associate of Radharani. He ordered me to establish daiva-varnasrama. I must obey his order. The acarya is not under the sastra. The acarya can make sastra. Bhaktivinoda Thakura, the acarya, has inspired me in various ways. By his mercy and that of Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja and the previous acaryas we are going on, not caring for the precise technicalities of smartas.

"

'Although this concept of bhagavata-parampara appears to be new, it is based on the essential understanding of the scriptures. Something new given by an acarya but based on sastra is called vaisistya (a special characteristic). Acaryas Ramanuja and Madhva both apparently introduced something new, but because their teachings were based on sastra they came to be accepted. Phalena pariciyate: "An action should be understood by its result." My commitment to devotional service and my preaching activities speak for themselves. Owl-like persons cannot see this, but those who are honest will accept it.'

"

One thing that I am curious is if Srila Bhaktisiddhanta actually used the term "siksa parampara", as stated above. During my time orbiting the ISKCON organization I heard the expression "siksa sampradaya" tossed around, and at the time I bought into it. Now I'm not so sure. It may be that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and/or Srila Prabhupada actually used the expression "siksa parampara". Or, it may be that our bhagavata parampara really is a diksa parampara, and we simply have to correctly understand what diksa is. Hint: the mango is not the box. In any case, I'd like to learn more.

That leads us nicely into the idea of "tradition". When people in and around the ISKCON organization talk about "the tradition", who's tradition are they really talking about? Is it Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's tradition, or is it the tradition of Visvambharananda dasa Babaji?

"Weird Al" Yancovik's "Weasel Stomping Day" has the great lines "Why we do it, who can say?" and "It's tradition, that makes it okay".

"It's against the tradition! It's against sastra!", people sometimes exhort. Everybody's a Vaisnava scholar these day, it seems.

Here's another excerpt from the blog post by Jan Brzesinski. It's the same post that I quoted from before:

"

In fact, there are other, objective criteria by which one can measure a person's spiritual acumen, and the reliance on external signs like initiation for legitimacy is only superficially helpful. In this case, however, initiation means more than the possibility of perfection, it means the adoption of external rites and rituals, external modes of dress and other kinds of cultural distinction. The traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas have a 500-year-old culture that has to a great extent been jettisoned by the Gaudiya Math.

"

For our purpose, let's replace the word "culture", in the text above, with the word "tradition". Jettisoned. That means "discarded", "abandoned", "thrown overboard".

I wonder if the conception of initiation that is current in the ISKCON organization, ultimately comes from groups that Srila Prabhupada might refer to as babajis and caste goswamis, that is to say those who would refer to themselves as the traditional parivars.

I wonder if a misunderstanding of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's conception of initiation was carried over into the various splinters of what was once the Gaudiya Matha. This misunderstanding might well have been influenced by ideas held by the surrounding culture. By "surrounding culture" I'm referring to the babajis, caste goswamis, and other groups that might fall under the umbrella term "traditional parivar".

I wonder if the conception of initiation that is prevalent in the IKSCON organization, the conception that equates diksa with a ceremony and seems to emphasize "physical presence" over most other considerations, traveled thusly:

traditional parivars ----> splinters of what was once the Gaudiya Matha ----> ISKCON organization

I remember getting a CD-ROM that had on it a bunch of quotes from Srila Prabhupada about his godborthers. The general theme seemed to be to keep a distance. We have, for example, the line from a 1974 letter to Rupanuga: "They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress."

If Srila Prabhupada were to see his godbrothers as purely passing on what they all received from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, then there would be no cause for concern. But instead, in his letter to Rupanuga, Srila Prabhupada states: "So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them."

Based on one version of the story, it's told that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta made various enemies. He spoke strongly, and some people didn't like it. His disciples would be hearing "Your guru's off". It may be that ideas from the surrounding culture, ideas opposed by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, made their way into what used to be the Gaudiya Matha. Some of those ideas might then have subsequently made their way in to the ISKCON organization, via contact with some of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers, perhaps helping to form the current conception of what "the tradition" is.

Neal Delmonico (Nitai) left the ISKCON organization in the 1970s, and has written about it in his Nitai Zine.

Neal Delmonico, Jan Brzezinski, and the forum thread poster that I've been quoting, are all associated with the traditional parivars, traditional, non-Saraswata, lines. At the same time, if one reads them a certain way, they really do shine a certain light on the genius of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, perhaps sometimes unintentionally. This same genius we see shining forth in Srila Prabhupada.

As we march on, let's recall to mind our two guiding principles. (1) Srila Bhaktisiddhanta received initiation. (2) The mango is not the box.

The following is from an article in an issue of Nitai Zine:

"

In the last issue, I said I would describe my departure from ISKCON and some of my experiences both before and after leaving. The beginning of the end occurred when Dr. Kapoor dropped his bombshell on me, informing me that Bhaktisiddhanta was not properly initiated. When, after several days, the shock finally subsided somewhat, I began to consider my options. I had by then left Prabhupad's traveling entourage where I had for almost three years been the Sanskrit editor, and had settled in Vrindaban.

"

Next comes something from issue 1 of Nitai Zine:

"

The main reason for my departure from ISKCON was that I came to believe (and I still believe) that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvat never received proper initiation into the Caitanya Vaisava sampradaya (community). This revelation absolutely shook my world to pieces. I remember sitting on the roof of ISKCON's Vrindaban guest house the following day sadly watching the sun come up. It seemed like a different sun and the world I saw was not the one I had been familiar with. It was now a strange and frightening one. For weeks I had no idea what I was going to do. The man who broke the news to me was Dr. OBL Kapoor, elder savant of the Caitanya Vaisava tradition and member of the Gaudiya Math (his initiation name in the GM was Adikesava Das).

"

(...)

"

Why did I come to believe that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvat was never initiated? This was almost universally the reason ex-members of the Gaudiya Math gave for their own departures from that organization. I had always been told that after the death of Bhaktisiddhanta in 1937, the Gaudiya Math gradually disintegrated as a result of the struggle for power and greed. The actual impetus I learned was more principled than that. It was the result of the discovery of the inauthenticity of Bhaktisiddhanta's initiation. The man who began the fracture of the GM was Bhaktiprasada Puri Das Goswami, known before his renunciation as Anantavasudeva Das, the leader of the GM who was handpicked by Bhaktisiddhanta himself. His reason was precisely his own discovery of the fundamental flaw in the parampara of the GM. After a four-month long series of lectures on the Bhakti-sandarbha of Sri Jiva Gosvamin, begun in Bengal and completed in Vrindaban, he called all the members of the Math together, especially the sannyasis, and announced his own departure from the institution. He also informed them that their own efforts were in vain. Without the proper initiation of their teacher, Bhaktisiddhanta, the mantras he gave them in initiation were useless. The institution of sannyasa, too, the renounced order of life according to the system of asramas or stages in a exemplary Hindu life, which was instituted by Bhaktisiddhanta in Caitanya Vaisavism, was also groundless (since Bhaktisiddhanta had given it to himself). He advised all the sannyasis to go home and get married. Their pursuit of sannyasa was a sham and a waist of time. Most importantly of all he advised them that for their own spiritual good they get properly initiated from an authentic lineage within the Caitanya tradition. This I heard from several aged Vaisnavas in Vrindaban and Nabadwip who knew Puri Das personally and who left along with him or some time shortly afterwards.

"

Again I'll assert that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta received initiation, in case my meaning isn't getting through. If we understand diksa and parampara as a flow of transcendental knowledge, then there's no cause for worry. As Dhira Govinda writes in a Sun article:

"

The disciplic succession in the line of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is based on sound vibration, not on the formal initiation ceremony. Through sound vibration transcendental knowledge is conveyed. This is the essential aspect of the process of initiation. And this essential aspect is not dependent on formal initiation, though the processes of formal initiation are meant to serve and support the essential component of the initiation process, receiving transcendental knowledge.

"

Below is an excerpt from the book Back to Godhead 1944-1960, The Pioneer Years. The article is titled "Identity of Lord Chaitanya", and is from March 20th, 1960. Srila Prabhupada writes:

"

Srila Rupa Goswami and Srila Sanatan Goswami both are principal followers of Sri Swarup Damodar Goswami who acted as the most confidential servitor and constant companion of Lord Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu whose name was known as Viswambhar in His early life.

"

And from Srila Rupa Goswami, Srila Raghunath Das Goswami comes as the direct disciple and the author of Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita i. e., Sri Krishna Das Kaviraj Goswami stands to be his direct follower.

"

From Goswami Krishna Das Kaviraj the direct disciple is Srila Narottam Das Thakur who accepted Viswanath Chakrabarty as his servitor. Viswanath Chakrabarty accepted Jagannath Das Babajee from whom Srila Bhaktivinode Thakore was initiated and Srila Gour Kishore Das Babajee the spiritual master of Om Vishnupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupad-the Divine spiritual Master of our humbleself.

"

This parampara is similar to the one we find at the beginning of the Sri Caitanya Caritamrta. Look at it carefully, before we move on. This next bit is again from the forum thread that I keep making reference to. See how a person affiliated with a traditional parivar might respond to the disciplic succession given above.

Regarding Bhaktisiddhanta's version of the rest of the guru-parampara:

Sanatana Gosvami was actually the disciple of Vidyavacaspati.

Rupa Gosvami was a disciple of Sanatana Gosvami.

Jiva Gosvami was a disciple of Rupa Gosvami.

Raghunatha das Gosvami was a disciple of Yadunandana Acarya.

Narottama Das Thakura was a disciple of Lokanatha Gosvami, not of Krsna das Kaviraja.

Visvanatha Cakravarti was a disciple of Radha Ramana Cakravarti and never met his would-be guru Narottama, for they lived a century apart.

Baladeva Vidyabhusana was a disciple of Radha Damodara Gosvami, not of Visvanatha Cakravarti.

Jagannatha das Babaji lived 150 years after his would-be guru Baladeva Vidyabhusana.

Bhaktivinoda was a disciple of Vipin Bihari Gosvami, not of Jagannath das Babaji.

These two different versions of the story seem to come from different understandings of what initiation is. Srila Prabhupada has some wonderful statements about diksa, and it's relation to divya-jnanam. I encourage us to seek them out. That stuff will change your life, if you let it. In a way, those statements from Srila Prabhupada should really be enough for us. The thing is, gentle reader, you'll find that a surprising number of persons who present themselves as followers of Srila Prabhupada, of various stripes, really don't care what Srila Prabhupada said. Convinced as they are that they know the sastra and "the tradition".

There's more history, which helps to shine the light on the genius of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's, and Srila Prabhupada's, conception of initiation. As far as I can see, it all confirms and deepens what we learn from Srila Prabhupada. And it deepens and confirms Srila Prabhupada's presence and potency in our lives.

The Srila Bhaktisiddhanta documentary "The Universal Teacher" I also found worth watching. You get a taste of some of what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was facing. There's one segment in the video that sticks in my mind, where Tripurari is saying:

"

They would cite the philosophy, and question his initiation. And this and so many things. And doctrines came up in opposition to him. So many fine detailed points. Ignoring his emphasis on...uh...being the enemy of hypocrisy and emphasis on serving disposition.

"

It seems like the battle over the meaning of initiation is something with deeper roots than we might think at first, as it is with many things.

Another thing I found instructive was reading something that B.G. Narasimha wrote about the Jiva Institute. It also gives a taste of the philosophical conflicts that may have existed in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's time, and how some of the same themes seem to haunt us still today. B.G. Narasimha writes:

"

This time the attack against our parampara was coming from a young Indian scholar (once a member of ISKCON) who was representing the arguments and objections of the anti-party guru - an elderly Hindu scholar. As it turned out, in their opinion, not even Bhaktivinode Thakur is bona-fide, what then to speak of Saraswati Thakur and his followers

"

By "anti-party" he means the Jiva Institute, and the followers of Haridas Sastri. B.G. Narasimha continues:

"

A three hour special interview was first conducted by a third party and the discussions were tape-recorded. In a separate meeting the Brahmacharis sat in Satya Narayana's library at the Jiva Institute and listened to the three hour taped interview and carefully took notes.

"

B.G. Narasimha mentions there being 25 points of criticism by the Jiva Institute. Among them are criticisms like:

2)

"

Bhagavat-diksa does not exist, there is no logical meaning of bhagavata-diksa.

3)

"

We can understand Krishna and sastra only through proper diksa-parampara.

(...)

5)

"

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada is a rebel against the parampara. He disregarded all the proper diksa lines and attempted to establish his own concocted line by picking famous names from the Gaudiya history.

(...)

9) "We must have an unbroken diksa line, because, through that channel not only are we doing service in this plane but also in the eternal plane . One must have a practical guide along the whole way.

Point 9 feels similar to an attitude one might encounter within the ISKCON organization, at least at the time when I was in contact with it. Point 2 reminds me of a COM post from 1999, by Bhaktarupa, available online, where he states:

"

And your friend knows as well as everyone else that there is no 'bhagavati diksa', so this is some obfuscation. But there is a bhagavat parampara which consists of a general flow of teachings from one prominent personality to another. Just because we are following a bhagavat parampara does not mean that we are not also following a diksa parampara.

"

Let's transition into some more transcribed text from Jagadananda's article in "The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant":

"

Most Bengali Gaudiya Math authors seem to favor the term bhagavati diksa.

"

(...)

"

...where it is translated as 'esoteric initiation into Bhagavata Dharma'.

"

(...)

"

It may be that Saraswati was in fact reverting to a more primordial concept of initiation as a genuine rebirth, or conversion, rather than a ritual formality of any kind.

"

Some other excerpts, from different sections of the same article:

"

The bhagavata parampara idea had never stopped Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati from initiating disciples according to a Pancaratrika model. On the other hand, his ideas about unconventional leadership may have prevented him from designating a successor, in the expectation that a true spiritual leader would emerge from the ranks of his disciples.

"

(...)

"

According to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, though Madhva strictly speaking followed the bhagavata marga and Madhavendra Puri had accepted initiation in his line, neither Madhavendra nor Chaitanya accepted his doctrines, which had in time been infiltrated by Pancaratrika ideas.

"

Jagadananda's article also quotes from a text by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, where Srila Bhaktisiddhanta states:

"

Descendents of the Gaudiya Vaishnava acharyas became more or less attached to the path of archan, like the followers of the Pancaratras, and spread subordination to Sriman Mahaprabhu [Chaitanya], sometimes in its pure form, but more often in a perverted form.

"

(...)

"

While preaching the pure path of bhava [spontaneous love of God] explained in the Srimad Bhagavatam, Sriman Mahaprabhu distinguished it from mundane formalities, but in due course of time His teachings have become distorted into a branch of the Pancaratrika system. This, however, is not the purpose of Sriman Mahaprabhu's pure preaching.

"

We're almost at the end. One more thing comes to mind. On February 5th, 2010, Puranjana posted a letter on his Myspace blog from someone identified only as: ******** Dasi. Here's what she wrote:

"

I might get pelted for this. Srila Narayana Maharaj is my Guru who gave me Harinam initiation, about 3 years after I wandered about in Iskcon. But in my heart and soul, where great intense devotion and love exists, which is inexplicably far deeper than for my own Guru, lives Srila Prabhupad. And I never met him, nor heard him. But I do know through experience he is alive. Very much alive.

"

For those who've traveled with me this far, I'd like to look at something from Srila Prabhupada. At least I hope it's from Srila Prabhupada, Maybe you can help me with this. Years ago I read a short article entitled "Guru and Initiation: an answer for our time". It impacted me and inspired further research, chanting, and introspection. The article quotes from a lecture labeled as being from May 25th, 1968. Apparently it's not in the Vedabase. One author even implied that the lecture excerpt is itself fabricated. Either way, I'd be interesting to get to the bottom of this. Here's the most complete version of the excerpt that I have at the moment:

"

Initiation does not mean that it is a ceremony and it is finished, no. It is progressive. It is progressive just like education is progressive. So in the first beginning, ceto darpana marjanam, just to cleanse oneself from the understanding of material identification, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna. So at least for one year chanting regularly, observing the rules and regulation, one comes to the platform of spiritual platform. And then, another initiation, this is called diksa. That is also diksa, that is first process. This diska, second process is not very essential. The essential is to chant. In this age there is no need of this second initiation, but those who are going to be recognized as properly initiated, so this second installment was introduced by Sanatana Gosvami.

"

Is this quote for real? Did Srila Prabhupada speak this? It's a great quote, and compelling. Is the date perhaps mislabeled? I think I remember it being posted on a forum, where it was labeled as being from a lecture in Boston.

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