Who are the leaders in Iskcon? Who Can Follow Guru Vani As It Is???

[krsna 3]

 

 

 

<!-- end .post-top --><!-- the main section of the post goes here -->By Kesava Krsna dasa

 

Let’s face it; nobody in this material world likes to be bossed around. There is one experimental reality show called ‘Survivor’ in which contestants get stranded in some remote place far removed from modern civilization. Working in tribes, the members have to compete and cooperate at the same time. There is a process of elimination as fellow tribe members vote off those deemed as threats to their ambition to win the ultimate million dollar prize.

Those individuals, who display natural leadership traits and get things done around the camp, are usually the ones to get voted out ‘ people do not being bossed around. The canny ones however, keep low profiles; yet manipulate things to their advantage and improve their chances of winning.

This scene is quite far removed again from how things play out in the devotee community, yet Iskcon needs leaders. But how to choose them based upon what criterion has often been a thorny issue. Are we looking at spiritual advancement? Are we demanding expertise and administrative abilities? Do we consider those high in the popularity stakes? How about those with strong personality types? Or even those who are together and balanced and so on.

If we look back at our disciplic succession we will find unlikely leaders and acaryas who may not fit our modern day portrayal of leadership as required by Iskcon. Our largely vaidhi and sadhana based lifestyle would probably not accommodate them.

If we take Srila Gaura Kishora Dasa Babaji Maharaja for instance, would he fit in comfortably into one of our temples as a leader? He isn’t just a leader, but an acarya recognizable by those possessed of pure spiritual vision. Yet his penchant for seclusion, constant chanting and avadhuta behavior may not endear him very much to those who see with external vision. In fact, hardly anyone would recognize his true worth, and his apparently unproductive contribution to the temple may result in his sadly being asked to leave the temple.

His leadership is borne of sheer purity and renunciation, and he performed spiritual life in his siddha-deha in tune to the asta-kaliya times of the day. He wasn’t a coordinator or anything like that, but his command would be sacrosanct to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur who coordinated and organized thousands of disciples.

From the above example we can see that being a leader is not all about organizing, coordinating and administrative work. Needless to say, those who are vaisnavas are above all other designations. If a sannyasa or brahmana is a leader of the various orders of life, this role is fulfilled more by exemplary behavior, giving wise counsel, advising, teaching and so on.

When the sannyasa and brahminically minded devotees engage in affairs of management more suited for a ksatriya administrative type, even though vaisnavas can bypass the varna and asrama roles, it does not bode well for any prospect of implementing varnasrama-dharma within Iskcon. We either stick with what we are doing now, or forget about varnasrama talk for a couple more decades.

It usually happens if someone excels in a particular service, they become party leaders or departmental heads. Then we get some individuals who are competent or educated, will also be given a chance to manage. Then the vexing question must arise, does the position being held equal the spiritual advancement of the devotee? We can turn the question around and ask, does one have the spiritual qualifications for a certain managerial or important position?

The questions are raised because in many cases there seems to be a fixation on awarding outward results with responsibility, as opposed to apparent meager results shown by more inward brahminical devotees. Yet both types are leadership material in their own rights. Then we could have a scenario where a less spiritually qualified person is dictating to a more spiritually qualified devotee under his care, which has happened before.

So really there are two types of leaders under discussion, and they are not always being occupied in the right places. The GBC can be likened to a collective king or monarchy, but we do not have an advisory council for this body. Do we need one?

Not too long ago there were times when Srila Prabhupada countered and overruled certain policies endorsed by the then GBC. Was he not playing the sagely advisory role then, even though it was his solemn right to do so? In other words, the sannyasis and brahminical devotees who are presently managing the GBC affairs which could be done by trained sober ksatriya devotees can find their rightful place in an advisory council for the GBC.

This is not to say the GBC loses its power. It still retains the ultimate managerial authority. In politics the general politicians run the country. But they do not decide on every single bit of legislation that passes before them. The important ones are passed on to the upper chamber, or upper house (House of Lords) for the wise experienced men to deliberate and pass judgment. It goes back to parliament, or in Iskcon’s case, the GBC, where it is passed into law or whatever. By the way, this British system has endured for centuries, so something must be right.

Such a system in Iskcon will provide equitable employment for the brahmanas and sannyasis in the upper house of the advisory sagely committee, and the naturally gifted ksatriya devotees to run the GBC. Should this ever happen it will kick start the implementation of varnasrama-dharma at it would have started from the top.

There has been talk of a leadership academy to help train future leaders in Iskcon. While nothing can compensate for real ‘tread of the mill’ training learnt through the local temples with a little outside ‘pundit’ management know-how, nothing can beat following the core principles set by Srila Prabhupada. We want the right devotees to be in the right places.

If any insinuation of exclusivity is attached to the academy it will brew resentment and other unwanted feelings. In the military and corporate world the officers and management have their own canteens, bathrooms and other amenities separate from the gentry. We cannot emulate their ways.

While doing service in management, if it is taxing enough to interfere with basic hearing and chanting, we cannot always plead for Srila Prabhupada’s example of managing Iskcon and doing many other things too. He was after all a self realized soul. For him, managing or living in a grass hut were the same, his equilibrium stayed intact. For a Sadhaka busily engaged in management while trying to be self-realized, can be a slower way if the basics are compromised.

The devotees within Iskcon try to develop humility and glorify other devotees. This very liberal behavior can empower a leader among us who must have his senses under control. The humility of the devotees can cause a leader to abuse his position. It should go without saying that choosing the right devotees for leadership positions is a serious duty.

The ideal blend of being together and organized, and spiritually serious should put one up for candidature. It may be difficult to detect unwanted motivation in a leader until some unpleasant behavior is exposed. But then, if it comes to choosing between someone who wants to be a leader and someone who doesn’t, would it not be better to go for the reluctant leader?

Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa.

[cbrahma 0]

One has to trust an authority implictly and absolutely before one surrenders one's life to that person.

I just don't trust ISKCON management to that extent. It is not reasonable nor wise to do so, considering their well documented history of corruption.

[mahak 0]

managers manage. Some need to be managed, but others are capable.

 

vani of prabhupada is the heart of his disciple. The leader is one who keeps vani intact. I wont tell anyone where to go, the gotta ask prabhupada to speak thru his disciple.

 

Some disciples, even leaders, independent gurus with their own generation of disciples and isolated rebels, are merely deliverers of the vani of prabhupada which is the vani of vyasadeva.

 

Disciple responsibility to examine a person prior to accepting authority.

 

Managers. Here is one from mahaksadasa. YTou determine if prabhupadas vani is being presented. Go to the hospital, because you are sick. Now, there are very plush offices at the hospital, the administration and the comissioners, maybe a chairman of the board. Wanna rise to the top, go see them, bow to them, make them accept you.

 

OOPS. Ya forgot to ask any of these folks if they knew how to cure your illness, the reason you came in the first place. Well. Two on the board have degrees and licences to practice medicine, but both are old and have shaky hands. Sorry, you are in the wrong wing. You need to see those guys downstairs near emergency, the guys with the red splatters all over their white smocks, the ones who live next door with daughters in your daughter's ballet class, like the guy who picked you up hitchhiking during last decembers horrid windstorms.

 

So, my advicde is to find the leader of the samkirtana party out there on the street, hear from him with rapt sattention. Forget the administrative wing, they have another commission other that your very life force, they have to keep the bell ringing and the food coming in and the permits for the festivals and next months mortgage payment. Give to ceasar what is caesars, give to Krsna what he wants, to hear his name resounded for all to hewar.

 

Hsare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani 0]

For many of us on the outside, any attempt at trying to fix ISKCON is like beating a dead horse.

When the horse is dead it does no good to whip him anymore.

 

It's time for a new horse to be born.

The old horse is dead.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Today, at the Seva Ashram, as we honored the Disappearance of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada, Srila Gurudeva mentioned that, once, someone told Srila Sridhar Maharaja that Srila Prabhupada had referred to his God-Brothers as "bell-ringers" (that they were staying in their Mathas ringing bells instead of getting out and preaching).

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja's reply, according to Gurudev, is that he would be most honored to be a "mere" karatal player in the Sankirttan Movement of Sriman Mahaprabhu.

 

 

So, my advicde is to find the leader of the samkirtana party out there on the street, hear from him with rapt sattention. Forget the administrative wing, they have another commission other that your very life force, they have to keep the bell ringing and the food coming in and the permits for the festivals and next months mortgage payment. Give to ceasar what is caesars, give to Krsna what he wants, to hear his name resounded for all to hewar.

[theist 1]

Kartalas used in sankirtana is not the same as ringing a bell on the altar and never going out of the temple to engage others.

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja's reply, according to Gurudev, is that he would be most honored to be a "mere" karatal player in the Sankirttan Movement of Sriman Mahaprabhu.

That is not the way I heard it.

I heard that Srila Sridhar Maharaja said he would be honored to be a bell-ringer in the movement of Swami Maharaja Srila Prabhupada.

 

But, I heard it during the time of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, not 20 years later.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Well, you know all about me and my short-term memory. I trust your memory better. In any case, we can watch the video and see just what Gurudev said about his Guru Maharaja.

 

From yesterday up at the Seva Ashram (embedded):

<embed style="width:400px; height:326px;" id="VideoPlayback" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-8614469737888345397&hl=en" flashvars=""> </embed>

 

Link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8614469737888345397&hl=en

 

 

That is not the way I heard it.

I heard that Srila Sridhar Maharaja said he would be honored to be a bell-ringer in the movement of Swami Maharaja Srila Prabhupada.

 

But, I heard it during the time of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, not 20 years later.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Kartalas used in sankirtana is not the same as ringing a bell on the altar and never going out of the temple to engage others.

 

Somebody needs to stay at the temple to greet all the folks sent there by the Sankirttan party out in the streets, right?

[cbrahma 0]

 

Somebody needs to stay at the temple to greet all the folks sent there by the Sankirttan party out in the streets, right?

Oh no book distribution is the highest service.

[Beggar 0]

 

Oh no book distribution is the highest service.

Exactly where did you construe that statement from what has been written on any post on this thread?

Time to stop looking so hard for faults, rather try to see the devotion.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Exactly where did you construe that statement from what has been written on any post on this thread?

Time to stop looking so hard for faults, rather try to see the devotion.

There's devotion here? I guess I missed it with all the criticisms going on.

I didn't construe it from the posts - only from the practical culture of the temple I go to.

[theist 1]

 

Somebody needs to stay at the temple to greet all the folks sent there by the Sankirttan party out in the streets, right?

Why do you want to play little semantic games with Prabhupada's statement? The point he was making is that his Godbrothers did not step forward to help him in his worldwide preaching endeavor even after he pleaded with them.

[theist 1]

 

There's devotion here? I guess I missed it with all the criticisms going on.

I didn't construe it from the posts - only from the practical culture of the temple I go to.

 

Then maybe you should come here and share that devotion with us. Personally I never have claimed any devotion. I am only concerned with crawling out of the filthy material gutter into which I presently have slipped into.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Why do you want to play little semantic games with Prabhupada's statement? The point he was making is that his Godbrothers did not step forward to help him in his worldwide preaching endeavor even after he pleaded with them.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.28.31 purport,

 

 

The disciples of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja are all Godbrothers, and although there are some differences of opinion, and although we are not acting conjointly, every one of us is spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement according to his own capacity and producing many disciples to spread it all over the world.

 

Obviously, Srila Prabhupada encouraged his Godbrothers to preach all over the world and create many disciples all over the world to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world.

When some Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada finally made some headway with international preaching, the ISKCON cronies all complained and wanted to stop such preaching by the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Why do you want to play little semantic games with Prabhupada's statement? The point he was making is that his Godbrothers did not step forward to help him in his worldwide preaching endeavor even after he pleaded with them.

 

Sorry. I forgot to include the winkies to indicate the attempt at humor.

[Ashvatama 0]

 

managers manage. Some need to be managed, but others are capable.

 

vani of prabhupada is the heart of his disciple. The leader is one who keeps vani intact. I wont tell anyone where to go, the gotta ask prabhupada to speak thru his disciple.

 

Some disciples, even leaders, independent gurus with their own generation of disciples and isolated rebels, are merely deliverers of the vani of prabhupada which is the vani of vyasadeva.

 

Disciple responsibility to examine a person prior to accepting authority.

 

Managers. Here is one from mahaksadasa. YTou determine if prabhupadas vani is being presented. Go to the hospital, because you are sick. Now, there are very plush offices at the hospital, the administration and the comissioners, maybe a chairman of the board. Wanna rise to the top, go see them, bow to them, make them accept you.

 

OOPS. Ya forgot to ask any of these folks if they knew how to cure your illness, the reason you came in the first place. Well. Two on the board have degrees and licences to practice medicine, but both are old and have shaky hands. Sorry, you are in the wrong wing. You need to see those guys downstairs near emergency, the guys with the red splatters all over their white smocks, the ones who live next door with daughters in your daughter's ballet class, like the guy who picked you up hitchhiking during last decembers horrid windstorms.

 

So, my advicde is to find the leader of the samkirtana party out there on the street, hear from him with rapt sattention. Forget the administrative wing, they have another commission other that your very life force, they have to keep the bell ringing and the food coming in and the permits for the festivals and next months mortgage payment. Give to ceasar what is caesars, give to Krsna what he wants, to hear his name resounded for all to hewar.

 

Hsare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Mahaksadasa your my hero - I just want to go home

[suchandra 1]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.28.31 purport,

 

 

 

Obviously, Srila Prabhupada encouraged his Godbrothers to preach all over the world and create many disciples all over the world to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world.

When some Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada finally made some headway with international preaching, the ISKCON cronies all complained and wanted to stop such preaching by the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada.

 

From BALANCING THE ROLES OF THE GBC AND THE DISCIPLE IN GURU SELECTION

 

"The GBC desires to exercise some control over who represents ISKCON as initiating gurus. The SAC proposes, however, that the present system does not provide effective safeguards, and at the same time it stifles initiative. In other words, applying for the guru post and approaching devotees for recommendations does not sit well with truly humble Vaiñëavas. And it’s the truly humble who are most worthy to become our Society’s gurus.

We should also be aware from the history of other sampradäyas and religions of the real danger of gradual corruption. Even if apparent purity were maintained for some time by a bureaucratic regulating system of authorization, the eternal temptations of misusing the status of guru for self-aggrandizement could ruin the system and the institution. In future generations we, like other sampradäyas, could become burdened with gurus who collect disciples mainly for money and power. Such corruption could occur even while maintaining the external appearance of bureaucratic purity. Therefore SAC suggests that the GBC shift their oversight to mainly after-the-fact. Exactly how this is to be implemented should be decided by the GBC."

[Ashvatama 0]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Guruvani

Obviously, Srila Prabhupada encouraged his Godbrothers to preach all over the world and create many disciples all over the world to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world.

When some Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada finally made some headway with international preaching, the ISKCON cronies all complained and wanted to stop such preaching by the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Blah Blah Blah So much negativity, better you go out and distibute books around Miami

[cbrahma 0]

What I want to know is where were these 'parampara' authorities when Prabhupada was on the planet pushing on the mission of his spiritual master?

Why do they come on the scene so late in the proceedings like so many others to divide the spoils of the spiritual master's property and criticize his methods?

[Beggar 0]

 

What I want to know is where were these 'parampara' authorities when Prabhupada was on the planet pushing on the mission of his spiritual master?

Why do they come on the scene so late in the proceedings like so many others to divide the spoils of the spiritual master's property and criticize his methods?

Srila Prabhupada's prominent godbrothers are all deceased (entered nity-lila) so they are not "on the scene". Their disciples are "on the scene".

[cbrahma 0]

 

Srila Prabhupada's prominent godbrothers are all deceased (entered nity-lila) so they are not "on the scene". Their disciples are "on the scene".

I used the more generic term 'parampara authority'. That would include all the 'Math' commentators who now see fit to critique Prabhupada's method and teachings.

[Beggar 0]

 

I used the more generic term 'parampara authority'. That would include all the 'Math' commentators who now see fit to critique Prabhupada's method and teachings.

Srila Govinda Maharaja, of Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math on hearing of some of Srila Prabhupada's preaching statements told, "for the sake of preaching, sometimes pravacan (preaching) can cross siddhanta (devotional conclusions)". Sounds like a good description of what Prabhupada called, "transcendental trickery".

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Srila Prabhupada's prominent godbrothers are all deceased (entered nity-lila) so they are not "on the scene". Their disciples are "on the scene".

 

He did not mean that, what he wants to know is what his Godbrothers were doing when Prabhupada was preaching around the world, why didn't they also travel and preach instead of sitting around their <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Temples</st1:place></st1:City> in <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region>.

The fact is most did not expect Prabhupada to succeed, they actually gave him a hard time in the beginning, not only did they not help him, they critized him but where too lazy to get off their backsides and travel abroad Only Srila Prabhupada had real preaching mood of his Spiritual Master. They thought at first he had made some hippie devotess and were embarrassed by his 'western devotees' chanting 'their' Hare Krishna.

Even Narayana Maharaj was given the invite to come as early as 1968 but the fact is was not spiritually advanced enough to even understand what Srila Prabhupada was doing. He never ever had any belief back then that Srila Prabhupada would be successful. As the years past he did eventually have some understanding simply due to the enormous success ISKCON was having. Only then did he see what Srila Prabhupada new all along. By then Srila Prabhupada never again asked them for help and avoided them.

In 1976 I had a huge argument with a 'Gaudiya math sanyasi' who tried to minimize the preaching of Srila Prabhupada. This old Indian Sadu and Guru was boldly told by a young white Westerner in, a humble, yet committed way, that only Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has proven to be the real Jagat Guru of the world, the only real preacher following the mood of Lord Caitanya in this day and age, and that credit belongs to him and only him and you sir should read his books and learn how to preach the mission of Lord Caitanya instead of sitting around in you Temple trying to take credit for something you had absolutely nothing to do with and in fact in the beginning only criticized. You had to be there to realize how envious these Gaudiya math men were.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

anyway, Bhagavat das is groupie of Narayana Maharaja, so what he is preaching is bad medicine for the movement of Srila Prabhupada as far as I am concerned.

 

When I heard Narayana Maharaja was preaching that the disciples of Srila Prabhupada who got initiated by tape and ritviks were not really initiated and that they needed another proper initiation (from who else?), I wrote him off as an enemy of ISKCON and the movement of Srila Prabhupada and nothing has changed since then.

 

Narayana Maharaja has a place in the universe, but as far as I am concerned it is not with ISKCON or the the followers of Srila Prabhupada.

 

So, what is Bhagavat das "preaching"?

 

His preaching is poison as far as I am concerned and if he wants to serve Srila Prabhupada he needs to just go back to Bhuvanesvara and make life members. That was what Srila Prabhupada ordered him to do as his life's mission.

 

So, he should go do that instead of writing articles for the SamparadayaSun.com website and preaching the gopi-bhava, rasika acharya cult of Narayana Maharaja.

 

Thank God your a Prabhupada man Guruvani, actually I read every one of your posts and all of us have to read Prabhupadas books more and more and eventually, if we stand our ground with all the tests maya will throw at us, we will attain the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada and Krishna.