Alex J Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Dear Prabhus, On the topic of monism, it appears that Srila Prabhupada at times makes a distinction between Brahmavada and Mayavada. Perhaps Mayavada could be seen as primarily a psychological disposition wearing the mask of a philosophy. Maybe at root, Mayavada could be seen as a hostile attitude towards the idea of a personal Absolute, but backed up with references from the Vedas. Brahmavada, as I understand it, can be fairly innocent. It can result from a lack of information about the transcendental personal aspect of the Absolute Truth, a lack of clarity. But Brahmavada can still be a valid rung in the ladder. From what I remember reading and hearing, the four Kumaras were originally Brahmavadis, rather than Mayavadis. For example, they're described as follows in the translation to verse 24.113 of Sri Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya-lila: " ...the four Kumaras were always absorbed in the thought of impersonal Brahman and were thus Brahmavadis, they were nonetheless attracted by the transcendental pastimes and qualities of Krishna. Therefore they later became devotees of Krishna. " My understanding is that one of the reasons that they were able to respond to the personal form of the Absolute and become devotionally inclined, is that they didn't have envy against the personal Absolute inside their hearts. In the purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 3.15.43, Srila Prabhupada writes: " It appears from this verse that the four Kumaras were impersonalists or protagonists of the philosophy of monism, becoming one with the Lord. But as soon as they saw the Lord's features, their minds changed. In other words, the impersonalist who feels transcendental pleasure in striving to become one with the Lord is defeated when he sees the beautiful transcendental features of the Lord. " I don't remember ever reading that the four Kumaras at any time minimized the Absolute's personal form. Nor do I ever recall reading that they ever implied that impersonal Brahman was the source of that personal form. At the end of this post I'd like to share an excerpt from a morning walk conversation with Srila Prabhupada, from July 2<sup>nd</sup>, 1975, in Denver, which I find interesting in this connection. Sincerely, Alex <hr> Harikesa: Srila Prabhupada, what's the difference between a Brahmavadi and a Mayavadi? Srila Prabhupada: That you already questioned. We answered. Harikesa: I did? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...vadi means those who are aspiring to merge into the impersonal Brahman effulgence. Harikesa: And Mayavadis, they do not attain that impersonal realization? Srila Prabhupada: Mayavadis remain fools forever. Harikesa: They never leave this material platform. Srila Prabhupada: They do not know. They have no knowledge. Avisuddha-buddhayah [sB 10.2.32], always impure. Otherwise how they are thinking, so 'ham: "I am same. I am God. I am moving the sun, I am..." Such rascals, they remain always in ignorance. [break] ...no sense that "If I am the same, then why I have fallen down in this maya?" They say, "It is my lila. I have become dog. So it is my lila. I have become hog. It is my lila." (laughs) This is their philosophy. Hare Krsna. [break] Mayavada. They are fools, mudha. Mayayapahrta-jnana. They are described in the Bhagavad-gita. Mayavadi means mayayapahrta-jnana: "Their knowledge has been taken away by maya." Fools. Either you call them fool or call them lowest of the mankind or the most sinful, whatever way you can call, they are like that. All good qualifications. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has warned, mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa: [Cc. Madhya 6.169] "If you hear from Mayavadi, then your spiritual life is finished." It's so dangerous. Harikesa: The Brahmavadis have some possibility of advancement? Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Harikesa: What is that thing that enables them to advance? Srila Prabhupada: That you will know later on. First of all try to understand this. Don't try to understand everything in a moment. That is foolishness. [break] That argument is clear? Ambarisa: Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 I tend to see it in the same way. Thanks for the early BTG quote. It was very relevant. But does the concept of going BACK to Krsna ever appear in the Gita itself (shastric verses)? In 9.28 Krsna says: "In this way you will be freed from bondage to work and its auspicious and inauspicious results. With your mind fixed on Me in this principle of renunciation, you will be liberated and come to Me." upaishyasi -- you will attain. As I have said before on another topic somewhere, the "Back to Godhead" theme was very appropriate for Srila Prabhupada in my view because I think him to be a nitya-siddha parishad of Lord Mahaprabhu. So, for him, it is "going back home" and in the process taking a lot of fallen souls with him. It might not be "back home" for us, but it is back home for Srila Prabhupada and I can certainly accomodate that slogan coming from a nitya-siddha like Srila Prabhupada. Back home for me would probably be the Viraja. I don't believe for a nanosecond that I was ever in Goloka dancing with Krishna on the banks of the Yamuna. Krishna would never let one of his girlfriends falldown to become a worm in stool. Krishna is a better God and a better lover than that. If someone wants to tell me that Krishna is not expanding his potency and his light and his devotees at every moment then I would have to say that such a person considers the absolute as stagnant and limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurhari Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Related to post #8 above, here is another interesting way to look at/interpret the phrase "Back to Godhead" (from "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall" (Chapter 28) book by Kundali/Satyanarayan Prabhus. I especially like the analogy used in the bolded section (highlighted by me for emphasis) below. Why Did Çréla Prabhupäda Call His Magazine Back To Godhead? Yet another argument of the fall-vadis is that since Çréla Prabhupäda used the term "going back home" and named his magazine Back to Godhead, that he surely accepted that the jévas falls from Vaikuëöha. We could accept such a logic if it were supported by scripture and all statements to the contrary were satisfactorily reconciled. But this is impossible in light of all the above discussion. Lord Kåñëa is the ultimate source of everything and everyone. So although we have always been in the material world, when we go to Kåñëa and join in His lélä it is not improper to say that we go back to Godhead. For example, the American Ambassador to India lives in Delhi. Suppose his wife gives birth to a son in Delhi and after a few years the Ambassador is called back to the States. If the Ambassador's young son tells his local friends that he is going back home, back to America, there is absolutely nothing wrong in his statement, even though he has never before been in America. Or a child takes birth in a hospital's maternity ward and after some days the mother and child go back home. This does not imply that the child was in the home previously. The case of the nitya-baddha living entities is similar. They did not fall here from Vaikuëöha; they were here anädi, always. Jévas are parts of the Supersoul, who is an expansion of Kåñëa. He is like an ambassador of Vaikuëöha and representative of Kåñëa. Therefore jévas are part and parcel of Kåñëa, and are His servants. So it is proper to say that they go back home, back to Kåñëa or back to Godhead at the time of liberation. This is coherent with the çästra. Having said all this, however, we find that Çréla Prabhupäda himself explained the origin of the name for his magazine Back To Godhead in the very first BTG back in 1944, in an article entitled Back To Godhead. Here is the relevant quote from the original article: Archbishop of Canterbury: In every quarter of earth men long to be delivered from the curse of War and to find in the world which has regained its peace, respite from the harshness and bitterness of the world they have known till now. But so often they want the Kingdom of Heaven without its King. The kingdom of God without God. And they cannot have it. OUR RESOLVE MUST BE BACK TO GOD. We make plans for the future for peace amongst the nation and for civil secrity at home. That is quite right enough and it would be wrong to neglect it. But all our plans will come to ship-wreck on the rock of human selfishness unless we turn to God. BACK TO GOD, that is the chief need of England and of every nation. Following this Çréla Prabhupäda quotes a number of other influential leaders to show that they all agree that the need of the moment is to increase religion in the hearts of men. He quotes one John Younghusband saying words to that effect. Then he quotes Dr. Radhakrisnan, "We have to defeat tyranny in the realm of thought and create a will for world peace" which Prabhupäda incorporated as the slogan on the masthead. Prabhupäda continues: These psychological movements of the leaders of all countries--combined with the orders of my Divine Master Sri Srimad Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupäda has led me to venture to start a paper under the above name and style "BACK TO GODHEAD," which implies all the words that we may intend to say in this connection. There can be little doubt in that the Archbishop of Canterbury had not even the remote intention of implying that the souls fall down from the nitya-lélä of the Lord and now here he was advocating that we go "back to God". The real point of the expression was that we need to establish a thiestic society here on earth. Secular society needs to become God-centered. People were more religious before and by the influence of time the populace was turning atheistic. So the Archbishop is appealing for a turn back to God. Çréla Prabhupäda simply took advantage of what seemed to be emerging as a popular sentiment to launch his preaching periodical. He was an expert preacher according to time, place, and circumstance. No one can deny that. The idea that the expression Back To Godhead is pregnant with meaning stating our ultimate siddhänta stretches the true story a bit thin. But even if one insists that Prabhupäda had a deeper meaning than the Archbishop, still, our explanation given in the first part of this chapter will surely suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Unless Srila Prabhupada wrote his own defintion of Godhead the standard English definition of Godhead is: <embed style="margin-bottom: 4px;" src="http://img.tfd.com/play.swf" flashvars="soundpath=http://img.tfd.com/hm/mp3/G0173700" menu="false" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" height="13" width="10"> (gdhd)n.1. Divinity; godhood. 2. Godhead. The Christian God, especially the Trinity. b. The essential and divine nature of God, regarded abstractly. If Godhead means the spiritual world then Srila Prabhupada was introducing a whole new meaning to the word than is the standard English usage of the term. I am not convinced that Srila Prabhupada manufactured his own definition of the term Godhead. I think he used the term as it's proper definition in the English language. Godhead is the supreme controller, the supreme being. Godhead is not another word for the spiritual world. Godhead is: b. The essential and divine nature of God, regarded abstractly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 The quote above from the early translation of SB 1.15.51 certainly does not refer to any impersonalism, brahmajyoti or anything like it when describing the "ultimate goal of life", Samprayanam, "back to Godhead". We must have some honesty otherwise we just clasp the air. A few slokas earlier, Srila Prabhupada translates about this destination of the Pandavas (back to Godhead): "This abode of the Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, known as Goloka Vṛndāvana, cannot be attained by persons who are absorbed in the material conception of life. But the Pāṇḍavas, being completely washed of all material contamination, attained that abode in their very same bodies.". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Impersonalism is when we don't understand that the brahmajyoti cannot be seperated from Krishna. As Lord Krishna told Arjuna: this brahmajyoti is myself If one thinks that the brahmajyoti is NOT Krishna, then he is suffering from impersonalism. It appears that a lot of "devotees" are impersonalists in that they do not recognize that the brahmajyoti is the avyakta-murti of Krishna. The brahmajyoti has a form and a personality. That form and that personality is Krishna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 The concept of "BACK to Godhead" - what is it origin? Is there a shastric basis to this concept? What are the possible ways of understanding this concept in the light of guru, sadhu, and shastra? Is it just a preaching tool, based on the well known "Paradise Lost" idea? Or is it part of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta going back to the time of Six Goswamis? It would seem that Srila Prabhupada started using this concept very early in his preaching in India, while he was still a householder. It definitely was very dear to him, as he used it to name his magazine "Back to Godhead" - first issue came out in February of 1944. Don't know the answer to your question but I have a theory that the concept of "Back to Godhead" influenced Axl Rose in his song Paradise City. "Take me down to the paradise city Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty Oh, won't you please take me home Take me down to the paradise city Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty Take me home Oh, won't you please take me home Just an urchin livin' under the street, hard case that's tough to beat I'm your charity case, so buy me somethin' to eat, I'll pay you at another time Take it to the end of the line Ragz to richez or so they say, ya gotta-keep pushin' for the fortune and fame It's all a gamble when it's just a game, ya treat it like a capital crime Everybody's doing their time Take me down to the paradise city Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty Oh, won't you please take me home Take me down to the paradise city Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty Take me home Strapped in the chair of the city's gas chamber Why I'm here I can't quite remember The surgeon general says it's hazardous to breathe I'd have another cigarette but I can't see Tell me who you're gonna believe Take me down to the paradise city Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty Take me home, yeah Take me down to the paradise city Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty Oh, won't you please take me home So far away, so far away, so far away, so far away Captain America's been torn apart Now he's a court jester with a broken heart He said- turn me around and take me back to the start I must be losin' my mind- "Are you blind?" I've seen it all a million times Take me down to the paradise city Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty Take me home Take me down to the paradise city Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty Oh, won't you please take me home Take me down to the paradise city Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty Take me home Take me down to the paradise city Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty Take me home Oh, won't you please take me home Oh I wanna go, I wanna go, oh won't you please take me home Oh won't you please take me home Take me down to the paradise city Where the grass is green and the girls are pretty Take me home Oh, won't you please take me home" I guess the problem with my theory is that back at Godhead you can't look at girls or you get kicked out. Maybe Axl just didn't understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 The concept of "BACK to Godhead" - what is it origin? Is there a shastric basis to this concept? What are the possible ways of understanding this concept in the light of guru, sadhu, and shastra? Is it just a preaching tool, based on the well known "Paradise Lost" idea? Or is it part of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta going back to the time of Six Goswamis? It would seem that Srila Prabhupada started using this concept very early in his preaching in India, while he was still a householder. It definitely was very dear to him, as he used it to name his magazine "Back to Godhead" - first issue came out in February of 1944. Could be that lately, dieing and giving up one's body became a major topic in the Vaishnava news, and thus going "BACK to Godhead" comes in mind. Prabhupada's approach when starting a world movement was to place emphasis in introducing Vaishnava philosophy in a non-sectarian way. Godhead would signal that people didnt have to give up their God, but become better God conscious people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 (from "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall" (Chapter 28) book by Kundali/Satyanarayan Prabhus. I especially like the analogy used in the bolded section (highlighted by me for emphasis) below. Why Did Çréla Prabhupäda Call His Magazine Back To Godhead? Yet another argument of the fall-vadis is that since Çréla Prabhupäda used the term "going back home" and named his magazine Back to Godhead, that he surely accepted that the jévas falls from Vaikuëöha. We could accept such a logic if it were supported by scripture and all statements to the contrary were satisfactorily reconciled. But this is impossible in light of all the above discussion. Lord Kåñëa is the ultimate source of everything and everyone. So although we have always been in the material world, when we go to Kåñëa and join in His lélä it is not improper to say that we go back to Godhead. . Nonsense! It is Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura govinda/ BV and BP Puri/ B. B. Visnu / Narasingha Maharajas etc who foolishly teach with their nonsense philosophy that we all originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. Also many of the ‘we all originated from a plane sheet of consciousness gibberish” do not even know what the word vardi means. We are certainly not fall- vardis or dream-vardis Srila Prabhupada: - Vadi means those who are aspiring to merge into the impersonal Brahman effulgence. To put things in proper perspective, it's is very clear Srila Prabhupada instructed his genuine disciples to avoid the Gaudiya math completely. ISKCON has nothing to do with the present mundane version of the Gaudiya math that has been mundane since Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakur departure from this world in 1936, Srila Prabhupada never liked staying with any of his Godbrothers because they where not serious nor understood the preaching aspect of Spiritual life. I would like to correctly point out to the authors who wrote the nonsense and absurd book "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall" that we ARE eternally situated in Goloka. In actual fact <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place><st1:PlaceName>NO-ONE</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>FALLS</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> DOWN, but not in the way Kundali/Satyanarayan explain in their nonsense book. Why? Because we are now only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking’ that we are not there in Goloka or Vaikuntha when in actual fact our svarupa body is ALWAYS there regardless. This understanding is for the benefit of those who are not polluted by such drival as "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall". Srila Prabhupada explains clearly to us that our original position is ALWAYS in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen OR NOT THERE. In fact we are not fallen, we only 'IMAGINE, BELIEVE or have convienced ourselves that we are fallen due to our mistaken selfish desires. There argument is therefore with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka. Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban) Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Month="7" Day="30" Year="1971">July 30, 1971</st1:date> Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s servant.- Eternal servant. That’s all. Lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196 Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>, <st1:date Month="12" Day="27" Year="1972">December 27, 1972</st1:date> Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only” Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22 Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky. In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explain very clearly to his disciples and grand disciples to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka. There is no region, place or plane called tatastha, the jiva souls ARE the jiva-tatastha's. Also they are NOT inbetween the material and Vaikuntha realm but rather choose between SERVING the <st1:place>Superior</st1:place> energy (<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His expansions) or being COVERED by and a slave to the inferior energy (maha-tattva) In other words, one can stay in Vaikuntha as their 'svarupa' body or 'dream' of an imaginary self COVERED by the material energies ethereal and biological vessels within the mahat-tattva. All glorious to Srila Prabhupada Hare Krishna. http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:WIvVOAhL-vsJ:iskcon.krishna.org/Articles/2001/06/00320.html+avoid+gaudiya+math&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Should read To put things in proper perspective, it's is very clear Srila Prabhupada has internally instructed his genuine disciples to avoid present day ISKCON completely. Reality has nothing to do with the present mundane version of ISKCON that has been mundane since Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada departure from this world in 1977, Srila Prabhupada doesn't like staying with any of his disciple who are leaders of present day ISKCON because they are not serious nor understand the preaching aspect of Spiritual life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted November 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 It is Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura govinda/ BV and BP Puri/ B. B. Visnu / Narasingha Maharajas etc who foolishly teach with their nonsense philosophy that we all originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. This is not a thread for Vaishnava aparadhis like yourself. Please post replies relevant to the subject matter or I will ask the moderator to remove your posts. We dont need this type of attitude on this thread. Keep your venom to yourself, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Should read I new Tripurani Maharaj back in the mid seventies, in fact I used to go on book distibution with him in 1974, so many books he distributed yet turned his back on Prabhupada's ISKCON. The GENIUN truly dedicated devotees will never turn their back on ISKCON and the teachings and PREACHING mission of Srila Prahupada, regardless of the difficulties or of the over zealous charismatic dictatorial devotees of the past like bhavananda, Bhagavan, Hansudutta, Ramesvara etc. ISKCON will always remain. They were wrong in the way they goverened, we all know that, they and devotees like them come and go because no lie can live forever, but Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON has continued on and expanded. The only real threat CAN ONLY COME FROM WITHIN And that is if ISKCON leaders today start compromising, listening too and foolishly associating with the Gaudiya math. When things became too difficult for Tripurani Maharaj, he ran off like a scared jack rabbit to the Gaudiya math which means he never really new Srila Prabhupada at all. Those who know Srila Prabhupada will never leave his ISKCON in their own hearts NO, THIS IS THE CORRECT STATEMEANT - To put things in proper perspective, it's is very clear Srila Prabhupada instructed his genuine disciples to avoid the Gaudiya math completely. ISKCON has nothing to do with the present mundane version of the Gaudiya math that has been mundane since Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakur departure from this world in 1936, Srila Prabhupada never liked staying with any of his Godbrothers because they where not serious nor understood the preaching aspect of Spiritual life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur has said in his speech, "The Bhagawat" that, "no thought is a bad thought". Therefore the idea that in a sense we are already liberated or in our spiritual position is really coming from the nitya siddha krsna prema verse of Caitanya Caritamrta. Simultaneously the brahmajyoti origin conception comes from the Caitanya Caritamrta's, tatastha shakti bhedabheda prakasa verse. From different angle of visions both are true but only in qualified way which properly harmonizes the opposites. That is why Srila Prabhupada spoke and wrote both about both conceptions. Yet in the S.B. 4.30.5, purport we are told, "The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Conclusion and siddhanta are synonomous. That the jiva's origin is the "bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead" is the conclusion because it takes into account, yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama parama mama in Bhagavad Gita, that once attaining the Lord's abode one never comes back to this Material World. Otherwise since the conditioned souls can never come back to the Material World, if you believe that the eternal, internal associates of Lord can fall down from there but the newly arrived conditioned souls cannot then that puts, the conditioned jivas presently in a fallen conditioned (whether they are dreaming it or not) in a superior position, an absurd concept. Such an idea could not be the conclusion for it does not properly harmonize such apparent contradictions. Another point is that when Srila Prabhupada spoke to a disciple in a room conversation or on a walk, he would not tolerate any pride such as, "I really know, what I'm talking about". No matter what one would say, Prabhupada would almost always counter with an opposite idea. Sometimes he would detect that his disciple was looking for a "loophole" to not take responsibility for their fallen condition or difficulties. I believe that this is why in many conversations with disciples he would stress our free will, no matter that it is minute. Also Srila Prabhupada knew that no matter what we said, that our realization of it was practically nonexistent. He wanted us to realize our true nature, but we were secretely maintaining the bodily conception while trying to spout high philosophy (mea culpa). But it wasn't a secret to him for he saw through everyone's facades. Srila Prabhupada was a sadhu so he was cutting the false ego and false conceptions of all his followers. So his conversations and letters must be seen in that light. One may also find apparently conflicting statements in his books but when he wants to state the conclusion which properly harmonizes the opposites then he tells us that, "the conclusion is...". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 "Regarding the Gaudiya Math, our position has nothing to do with them. They cannot do anything and if somebody does something, they will be envious. That is the nature of third class men." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Yamuna 11/18/70 The only real threat CAN ONLY COME FROM WITHIN And that is if ISKCON leaders today start compromising, listening too and foolishly associating with the Gaudiya math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted November 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 The only real threat CAN ONLY COME FROM WITHIN And that is if ISKCON leaders today start compromising, listening too and foolishly associating with the Gaudiya math. It's YOU and people like you are the threat from within Prabhupada refered to. The ex-pot heads turned Vaishnava aparadhis like you destroyed Iskcon from within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Slaves of the Truth We are slaves of the truth. We are beggars for the pure current of truth that is constantly flowing: the fresh current. We are not charmed by any formality. I will bow down my head wherever I find the river of nectar coming down to me. When one is conscious that the Absolute Truth is descending to him from the highest domain, he will think, "I must surrender myself here." Mahaprabhu says to Ramananda Raya, kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya, yei krsna-tattva vetta sei guru haya. "Wherever the truth appears, wherever the nectar of divine ecstasy descends, I shall offer myself as a slave. That is my direct concern." Whatever form it takes doesn't matter much; the form has some value, but if there is any conflict, the inner spirit of a thing should be given immense value over its external cover. Otherwise, if the spirit has gone away, and the bodily connection gets the upper hand, our so-called spiritual life becomes sahajiya, a cheap imitation. Those who are fanatically sticking with ISKCON (not that there are no sincere devotees in the ISKCON institution) are giving too much value to external form. It's like caring too much for a brand name when shopping. We don't care so much about brand name of a bottled water, we care if the water in it is really pure. If it is not then we will purchase pure water from another company. Then at the same time those who are habituated to accepting the external form over substance are prone to criticize those who are interested in the real purity. Ultimately such a mentality is a "cheap imititation" of the real spiritual life of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas. As I noted in the previous post, we do not oppose the idea that, "we are not really fallen", and that it is "like a dream" for that conception is coming from the nitya siddha krsna prema verse in Caitanya Caritamrta. But such a thought is not the conclusion or Gaudiya Siddhanta. Blaspheming sincere devotees, criticizing Prabhupada's godbrothers, fanatic loyalty to a compromised, hollow, deviated institution because it is officially called ISKCON and arguing against the real siddhanta are symptoms of cheap imitationism or sahajiyaism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 "Regarding the Gaudiya Math, our position has nothing to do with them. They cannot do anything and if somebody does something, they will be envious. That is the nature of third class men." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Yamuna 11/18/70 The only real threat CAN ONLY COME FROM WITHIN And that is if ISKCON leaders today start compromising, listening too and foolishly associating with the Gaudiya math. Pass this on to your 'friends' at the Gaudiya math. In actual fact NO-ONE FALLS DOWN, but not in the way Kundali/Satyanarayan explain in their nonsense book. Why? Because we are now only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking’ that we are not there in Goloka or Vaikuntha when in actual fact our svarupa body is ALWAYS there regardless. This understanding is for the benefit of those who are not polluted by such drival as "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall". Srila Prabhupada explains clearly to us that our original position is ALWAYS in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen OR NOT THERE. In fact we are not fallen, we only 'IMAGINE, BELIEVE or have convienced ourselves that we are fallen due to our mistaken selfish desires. There present day 'non-eventful' Gaudiya math and their followers argument is with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted November 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Pass this on to your 'friends' at the Gaudiya math. It was not GM devotees who ruined Iskcon, but Srila Prabhupada's very own deviant disciples like Hansadutta, Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, Bhagavan, and others, along with their helpers. What did GM devotees ever do to harm Iskcon? EVERY scandal, every single act of public humiliation and debauchery was performed by SP's disciples on their own. THAT WAS THE THREAT FROM WITHIN. Liars like you like to blame others for your own problems, but nobody is buying such lame excuses. I dont mind people with kooky theories, but I do mind people who repeatedly and stubbornly blaspheme advanced Vaishnavas, thus giving their own guru a bad testimony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 There is no region, place or plane called tatastha, the jiva souls ARE the jiva-tatastha's. Also they are NOT inbetween the material and Vaikuntha realm but rather choose between SERVING the Superior energy (Krishna and His expansions) or being COVERED by and a slave too the inferior energy (maha-tattva) The marginal or jiva potency of Sri Bhagavan. Because the jiva-sakti is included neither within the svarupa-sakti nor within maya-sakti, it is known as tatastha-sakti, the marginal potency. The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land. In his Paramatma-sandarbha, Jiva Gosvami has described the tatastha-sakti as follows: “The jiva-sakti is known as tatastha-sakti for two reasons. First of all it cannot be included within mayasakti for it is beyond maya-sakti. Secondly, although jiva-sakti is overcome by ignorance, the defect of being overcome in this way cannot touch the Paramatma situated in his heart. This is understood by the following analogy. We see that some portion of the sun’s rays can be covered by shade or clouds, but the sun itself cannot be covered. Similarly, the individual soul, who is vibhinnamsa, a separated part of Him, can be covered by maya, but Krsna Himself can never be covered. “From this it may be understood that the jiva-sakti is separate from the svarupa-sakti also for the following reason. Svarupa-sakti is present in the Paramatma. If the jiva-sakti were included within the svarupa-sakti, then the defect of the jivas being overcome by ignorance would be transposed upon the svarupa-sakti situated within the Paramatma as well, and ultimately upon the Paramatma Himself. Since that is not the case, it is evident that the jiva-sakti is not included within svarupa-sakti. Consequently, because the jiva-sakti is included neither within svarupa-sakti nor within mayasakti, it is known as tatastha-sakti”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Perhaps Sarva gattah can refute Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Jiva Goswami in terms of: dharma, svabhava, vastu, ghatana, vikara and nisarga. If you've been actually reading the previous posts you will know how these terms are defined. To refresh your memory, here is Prem Prayojana Prabhu, Paraphrasing Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in Jaiva Dharma, The word dharma comes from dhri dhatu-the verbal root, meaning 'to hold'. That which any substance is holding and never lets go of and by which it can be identified is called its dharma, its religion. Every vastu, or substance, has its dharma, that is, its svabhava, or nature. This svabhava arises automatically from its ghatana, its internal construction. It is not something acquired from anywhere else. It is not something to be practiced or learned. Dharma is the intrinsic nature (svabhava) arising from the ghatana (construction) of any substance (vastu). Next, we discussed how a vastu, when coming in contact with another force, can undergo transformation. The transformation of any substance is called vikara. When vikara takes place, the svadharma (svabhava) of a substance goes into a latent position and is apparently lost; the vastu's subsequent acquired nature is called nisarga. To illustrate these terms, an example is given. A vastu, in this case water, has a dharma (svabhava), namely liquidity, which arises automatically from its ghatana. When water is subjected to extreme cold, a vikara (transformation) occurs in which its dharma, liquidity, is apparently lost. The transformation in this case is commonly known as freezing, in which the substance exhibits nisarga, an acquired nature, namely hardness or solidity, as opposed to its svabhava or dharma, liquidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Regarding Jaiva Dharma, Srila Prabhupada said in September 23, 1969, on the divine appearance day of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktivinoda Thakura happens to be one of the acaryas, and he has left behind him many books. Caitanya-siksamrta and Jaiva Dharma are very important books. They are in Bengali and Sanskrit. And he has prepared many books of songs. We are trying to present Bhaktivinoda Thakura's books in English, and gradually you will get them. So our adoration, our worship is to Bhaktivinoda Thakura today so that he may bless us to peacefully make progress in Krsna consciousness. Acarya-upasana. Simply by the blessings of the acaryas we can make very rapid progress." Regarding Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's books in general, a conversation took place with Prabhupada on May 13, 1975: "Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, I remember once I heard a tape where you told us that we should not try to read the books of the previous acaryas. Amogha: That we should not try to read Bhaktivinoda's books or earlier books of other acaryas. So I was just wondering… Prabhupada: I never said that. Amogha: You didn't say that? Oh. Prabhupada: How is that? Amogha: I thought you said that we should not read the previous acarya's books. Prabhupada: No, you should read. Amogha: We should. Prabhupada: It is a misunderstanding..we are following the previous acaryas. I never said that." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Perhaps Sarva gattah can refute Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Jiva Goswami in terms of: dharma, svabhava, vastu, ghatana, vikara and nisarga. If you've been actually reading the previous posts you will know how these terms are defined. To refresh your memory, here is Prem Prayojana Prabhu, Paraphrasing Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in Jaiva Dharma, I hope that you are being facetious or just plain sarcastic. Otherwise it is like asking for a rational exchange of ideas with a Neo-Nazi propagandist. They don't listen to a thing that you say and just try to shout you down, as well as lowering themselves to argumenum ad hominem or what the Gaudiya Vaisnavas call vaisnava aparadha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Just see, my brother, no takers for your challenge! They ain't players, just haters. Hate'in on the Vaisnavas, a terrible thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Yes, let's look at Jaiva Dharma. As Babaji says, it will take many readings. Chapter 15 deals with the tatastha nature of the jiva. Babaji's two analogies of a large fish and of the shoreline of a river can be understood from their nature in our common worldly experience. A large fish can swim from this side of a river to that side and then back again, over and over. In one season the rivers swell up their banks and then in a drought, the waters recede. That is the nature of rivers and big fish who can defeat the river's current. The answer is in here surely, but it is hidden in time .... give it some time today: Vrajanatha humbly replied , "O master, your teachings and association has brought an upheaval in my thoughts. Now my heart understands how worthless the material world is. My heart yearns to take shelter of Lord Gaura's feet. In my mind there is one question: Who am I in reality, and why do I live in the material world? Babaji : Good. With this question you have made me fortunate. When his auspicious day comes, a soul places this question before all others. When you hear the fifth verse of Dasa-mula and its explanation, doubts will no longer live in your heart. "As sparks fly from a blazing fire, or rays of light fly from the sun, so the individual spirit souls come from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Hari. As the sparks and rays of light are at once different and not different from their source, so the individual souls are different and not different from Lord Hari. Lord Hari is the supreme controller. He is the master of the material world. The illusory potency maya is under His control. The individual soul is not like Him. Even when he is liberated, the soul is capable of coming under maya's control." Vrajanatha : That is a wonderful conclusion! I wish to hear the evidence the Vedas give for it. The words of the Supreme Lord (Bhagavad-gita) are worthy evidence by themselves. However, when they are supported by the words of the Upanisads, they are more easily accepted by the people in general. Babaji : These truths are revealed in many passages of the Vedas. I will recite one or two of them. Please listen carefully. In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (2.2.20 and 4.3.9) it is said: "As tiny sparks fly from a fire, so all individual souls have come from the Supreme." "A person has two places: the spiritual world and the place where the spiritual world meets another world. There is also a third place, a place of dreams. Standing between them, the soul sees on one side the spiritual world and on the other side the place of dreaming." This passage describes the individual souls (jiva-sakti), which can reside in either the spiritual or material worlds (tatastha). In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.18) it is also said: "As a large fish in a river may go to one shore or the other, so a person may go to one world or another. He may go to a world where he is awake, or may go to a world made of dreams." Vrajanatha : How does the Vedanta philosophy define the word "tatastha?" Babaji : The place where a river's waters meet with the land of the shore is called the 'tata' . The 'tata' is then the place where water meets the land. What is the nature of this 'tata'? It is like the thinnest of threads that runs along the boundary of land and water. A 'tata' is like the finest of lines, so small that the gross material eyes cannot even see it . In this example the spiritual world is like the water and the material world is like the land. The thin line that separates them is the 'tata'. That boundary place is the abode of the individual spirit souls. The individual spirit souls are like atomic particles of sunlight. The souls can see both the spiritual world and the material world created by Maya. The Lord's spiritual potency, cit-sakti, is limitless, and the Lord's material potency, maya-sakti, is gigantic. Standing between them, the individual spirit soul is very tiny. The individual spirit souls are manifested from the tatastha-sakti of Lord Krsna. Therefore the souls are naturally situated on the boundary (tatastha) of matter and spirit. Vrajanatha : What is this 'tatastha' nature of the individual souls? Babaji : Standing between them, the soul can see these two worlds. The 'tatastha' nature of the souls refers to the fact that they must be under the control of one of these two potencies. The actual place of the 'tata' (shore) may change. <b.what be="" with="" water,="" and="" what="" was="" once="" covered="" by="" water="" may="" again="" become="" dry="" land="">. If he turns his gaze upon Lord Krsna, the soul comes under the shelter of Lord Krsna's spiritual potency. But if he turns away from Krsna and turns his gaze to the material potency, maya, then the soul is caught in maya's trap. That is what is meant by 'the soul's tatastha nature'. Vrajanatha : Does maya have anything to do with the nature of the spirit souls? Babaji : No. The spirit souls are completely spiritual. However, because they are atomic in size, the souls are not very strong. That is why maya can dominate them. However, in the soul's nature there is not the slightest scent of maya. Vrajanatha : I heard from my teacher that when it is surrounded by maya, the impersonal brahman becomes the individual spirit soul. When a small portion of the great sky is surrounded by the walls of a clay pot, it becomes the sky within a pot. In the same when the impersonal Brahman is surrounded by Maya, it becomes the individual soul. What does this mean? Babaji : That is just impersonalism (mayavada). How can maya have the power to touch the Supreme Brahman? If you say that Brahman has no potency, then how can maya even approach Brahman? The maya potency has no independent power. How can she have any effect on the Brahman? It cannot be said that the great Brahman becomes covered by maya and is then forced to suffer in different ways. That is not possible. If Brahman's spiritual potency is always awake and vigilant, how can the insignificant maya-sakti defeat her and proceed to create the individual souls from Brahman in this way? The Supreme Brahman is limitless and immeasurable. How can the limitless Brahman be broken into smaller souls in the same way the great sky is broken into the little skies within a series of clay pots? The idea that maya can have some effect on the Brahman cannot be accepted. Maya has nothing to do with the creation of the individual spirit souls. Although they are atomic in size, the individual spirit souls are superior to maya. Vrajanatha : At another time another teacher said that the individual spirit soul is a reflection of Brahman. As the sun is reflected on the water, so the Supreme Brahman, reflected on maya, becomes the individual soul. What does that mean? Babaji : That is also impersonalism. Brahman has no limit. Something that is unlimited cannot be reflected anywhere. The Vedas do not teach that Brahman is limited. This reflection-theory should be rejected. Vrajanatha : Another time a dig-vijayi sannyasi said that the individual spirit soul does not really exist. The idea of the individual soul is only an illusion. When the illusion is thrown far away, only the undivided Brahman remains. What does that mean? Babaji : That is also impersonalism. That idea has no root in the truth. In the Chandogya Upanisad (6.2.1) it is said: "Brahman is one without a second." Do these words of the Vedas mean that only Brahman, and nothing else, exists? If nothing but Brahman exists, then from where has this illusion come? Whom does this illusion bewilder? If you say this illusion bewilders Brahman, then you make Brahman a pathetic being. If you say this illusion bewilders something other than Brahman, then you contradict the idea that only Brahman exists. Vrajanatha : Another time a brahmana pandita of Navadvipa said that only the individual soul exists. In a dream he experiences material happiness and suffering. When he wakes up from the dream, he discovers that he is Brahman. What does this mean? Babaji : That is also impersonalism. Brahman has a dream and becomes the individual soul? What proof do they have for that? The scriptures give the examples of mistaking the glittering on a seashell's surface for silver and mistaking a rope for a snake, but these examples do not prove the impersonalist idea that Brahman alone exists. These words are only a great network of word-jugglery meant to bewilder the people in general. Vrajanatha : The individual soul is not created by maya. That I accept. Maya has the power to dominate the individual soul. That I understand. This is my question: Does the spiritual potency (cit-sakti) place the individual soul on the border (tatastha) of matter and spirit? Babaji : No. The cit-sakti is the full manifestation of Lord Krsna's potency. Whatever she creates is eternally perfect (nitya-siddha). The individual spirit souls are not eternally perfect. By engaging in the activities of devotional service (sadhana) they may become perfect (sadhana-siddha) and thus enjoy spiritual bliss exactly like that enjoyed by the eternally perfect (nitya-siddha) beings. The four kinds of gopi-friends (sakhi) of Srimati Radharani are eternally perfect beings (nitya-siddha). They are manifested from the form of Srimati Radharani, who is the cit-sakti Herself. All the individual spirit souls are manifested from Lord Krsna's jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Lord Krsna's complete potency (purna-sakti). The individual souls (jiva-sakti) are counted among Lord Krsna's incomplete potencies (apurna-sakti). From the complete potency complete and perfect things are manifested. From the incomplete potency all the individual souls, who are atomic fragments of consciousness, are manifested. Lord Krsna manifests different kinds of entities according to the different kinds of potencies He employs to create them. When He is manifested in His cit-sakti, He appears as Krsna and as Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. When He is manifested in the jiva-sakti, He appears as Baladeva, His pastime form (vilasa-murti) in Vraja. When He is manifested in the maya-sakti, He appears as the three forms of Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu. In Vraja He appears in His original form, as Krsna, a form manifested by His complete potency. Appearing as Baladeva, He manifests His sesa-tattva (nature of Lord Sesa). In this way He manifests the eight kinds of services the eternally liberated associates offer to Him. Again in Vaikuntha He appears as Sesa-Sankarsana and manifests the eight kinds of service His eternal associates offer to Lord Narayana. Lord Sankarsana incarnates as Maha-Visnu. He becomes the resting-place of the jiva-sakti and appears as the Supersoul in the hearts of all the individual souls residing in the material world. All these individual souls are attracted to maya. As long as they do not attain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and take shelter of the Lord's spiritual hladini-sakti, they are defeated by Maya. Numberless souls are defeated by Maya and cast into Her prison. They are the followers of Maya's three modes. The conclusion is this: the individual souls are manifested by the jiva-sakti. They are not manifested by the cit-sakti. Vrajanatha : I have heard that the spiritual world is eternal and the individual spirit souls are also eternal. How is it possible for eternal things to be born, created, or manifested? If there was a time when they were not manifested and they only appear at a certain point in time, how can they be eternal? Babaji : The time and space present in the spiritual world is different from the time and space you experience now in the material world. In the material world time has three phases: past, present and future. In the spiritual world time is not broken in that way. There time is an eternal present. In the spiritual world things do not come into being. Everything exists in an eternal present. When we who living in the world of material time and space try to describe the spiritual world, we tend to say things like, "The individual souls were created,the individual souls were imprisoned by Maya", "the spiritual world was manifested", and "the individual souls are spiritual and were not created by maya". When we talk in these ways we certainly show how much we are influence by staying in this world of material time. As long as we stay in Maya's prison we cannot avoid talking in this way. That is why when we describe the individual souls or the nature of spirit we cannot avoid speaking in terms of material time. Therefore we tend to speak in terms of past and future. Therefore a person who tries to understand the spiritual world properly tries to speak in terms of an eternal present. Baba, logic cannot help us understand these things. Here logic should be rejected. Then you will be able to see the nature of spirit. When he forgets that he is eternally a servant of Lord Krsna, the individual soul enters Maya's prison. Originally all souls are Vaisnavas. However, they become two groups: 1. nitya-baddha (eternally imprisoned by Maya) and 2. nitya-mukta (eternally liberated). A human being bewildered by matter cannot describe these things. Still, a saintly devotee can attain the spiritual vision to see these spiritual truths directly. My words are inevitably influenced by matter. I will describe these things as far as I am able. My words will inevitably be imperfect. O baba, you will be able to see the pure spiritual truth. However, logic will not help you. Why will logic not help? Because logic is useless in grasping what is beyond the mind's understanding. I know you will not be able to understand this all at once. Still, the more you follow the spiritual path the more you will be able to see the difference between matter and spirit. Your body is material. All the body's actions are material. But the truth is that You yourself are not material. You are a tiny particle of conscious spirit. The more you understand that truth, the more you will be able to perceive your own identity and the truth that you are superior to the material world. You will not understand this merely by hearing me tell you about it. As you follow the path of regularly chanting the holy names of Lord Hari, these spiritual truths will gradually spontaneously appear before you . Then you will understand the spiritual world. As long as the mind and words are influenced by matter, try as one may one will not be able to touch the spiritual truth. The Vedas (Taittiriya Upanisad 2.4.1.) explain: "The descriptive power of speech fails in the realm of the Absolute Truth and the speculative power of the mind cannot achieve Him." My advice to you is: Don't ask anyone what they think of these conclusions. Experience them yourself. I can only give a hint about them. </b.what> <center> </center> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 <b.what be="" with="" water,="" and="" what="" was="" once="" covered="" by="" water="" may="" again="" become="" dry="" land=""> Vrajanatha : I have heard that the spiritual world is eternal and the individual spirit souls are also eternal. How is it possible for eternal things to be born, created, or manifested? If there was a time when they were not manifested and they only appear at a certain point in time, how can they be eternal? Babaji : The time and space present in the spiritual world is different from the time and space you experience now in the material world. In the material world time has three phases: past, present and future. In the spiritual world time is not broken in that way. There time is an eternal present. In the spiritual world things do not come into being. Everything exists in an eternal present. When we who living in the world of material time and space try to describe the spiritual world, we tend to say things like, "The individual souls were created,the individual souls were imprisoned by Maya", "the spiritual world was manifested", and "the individual souls are spiritual and were not created by maya". When we talk in these ways we certainly show how much we are influence by staying in this world of material time. As long as we stay in Maya's prison we cannot avoid talking in this way. That is why when we describe the individual souls or the nature of spirit we cannot avoid speaking in terms of material time. Therefore we tend to speak in terms of past and future. Therefore a person who tries to understand the spiritual world properly tries to speak in terms of an eternal present. Baba, logic cannot help us understand these things. Here logic should be rejected. Then you will be able to see the nature of spirit. When he forgets that he is eternally a servant of Lord Krsna, the individual soul enters Maya's prison. Originally all souls are Vaisnavas. However, they become two groups: 1. nitya-baddha (eternally imprisoned by Maya) and 2. nitya-mukta (eternally liberated). A human being bewildered by matter cannot describe these things. Still, a saintly devotee can attain the spiritual vision to see these spiritual truths directly. My words are inevitably influenced by matter. I will describe these things as far as I am able. My words will inevitably be imperfect. O baba, you will be able to see the pure spiritual truth. However, logic will not help you. Why will logic not help? Because logic is useless in grasping what is beyond the mind's understanding. I know you will not be able to understand this all at once. Still, the more you follow the spiritual path the more you will be able to see the difference between matter and spirit. Your body is material. All the body's actions are material. But the truth is that You yourself are not material. You are a tiny particle of conscious spirit. The more you understand that truth, the more you will be able to perceive your own identity and the truth that you are superior to the material world. You will not understand this merely by hearing me tell you about it. As you follow the path of regularly chanting the holy names of Lord Hari, these spiritual truths will gradually spontaneously appear before you . Then you will understand the spiritual world. As long as the mind and words are influenced by matter, try as one may one will not be able to touch the spiritual truth. The Vedas (Taittiriya Upanisad 2.4.1.) explain: "The descriptive power of speech fails in the realm of the Absolute Truth and the speculative power of the mind cannot achieve Him." My advice to you is: Don't ask anyone what they think of these conclusions. Experience them yourself. I can only give a hint about them. </b.what> The Fall-Vadis and Sleeper Vadis take this truth and expound on it with their own mental concoction. Babaji: The time and space present in the spiritual world is different from the time and space you experience now in the material world. In the material world time has three phases: past, present and future. In the spiritual world time is not broken in that way. There time is an eternal present. In the spiritual world things do not come into being. Everything exists in an eternal present. When we who living in the world of material time and space try to describe the spiritual world, we tend to say things like, "The individual souls were created,the individual souls were imprisoned by Maya", "the spiritual world was manifested", and "the individual souls are spiritual and were not created by maya". When we talk in these ways we certainly show how much we are influence by staying in this world of material time. As long as we stay in Maya's prison we cannot avoid talking in this way. That is why when we describe the individual souls or the nature of spirit we cannot avoid speaking in terms of material time. Therefore we tend to speak in terms of past and future. Therefore a person who tries to understand the spiritual world properly tries to speak in terms of an eternal present. Consequently we find Srila Prabhupada sometimes speaking in the eternal present and telling us that' "we are already" liberated and that our material existence "is like a dream". But in his books he gives the siddhanta or conclusion.Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.30.5, purport, The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But the Sleeper-Vadis take Srila Prabhupada's "speaking in terms of the eternal present" as the only angle of vision thereby pitting it against the angle of vision of the "conclusion" or siddhanta. They take it as, This is certainly very clear isn't it -We all originated from Goloka They have no real idea of what impersonalism actually is and no interest in Krsna's pastimes per se. That have concocted a philosophy which is denies the superior position of the ragatmika bhaktas. With such an attitude how will anyone then aspire to follow the ragatmikas - raganuga, let alone become a Rupanuga or even entertain the very concept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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