Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Your additions to the Krsna Consciousness philosophy are based are taking analogies literally which is an error in logical thinking. Those who understand that analogies have limitations are not Mayavadis by that fact alone.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I'm too stupid to appreciate such distinctions (at least I pray I am).

 

 

These are functional conceptions not literal.

The guru performs the function of Radha or Lord Nityananda.

Each and every guru is not Radha or Nitai but the guru performs as Radha or Nitai functionally in the role of guru.

[Beggar]

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 7.14 purport,

 

The jīva-tattva servitor, the spiritual master, is actually the servitor God.

But backing "the jiva-tattva servitor" is akhanda guru, Nityananda Prabhu who is Visnu tattva or in that sense .non-different than Mahaprabhu or Krsna.

 

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Diksa guru-siksa-guruke ta'jani krsnera svarupa (CC Adi 1.47) Diksa guru and siksa guru are both extensions of Krsna. Guru is Krsna, acaryam mam vijaniyam [CC Adi 1.46 ~ Bhag. 11.17.27]. Krsna has come there to liberate me, in different appearance, representations. He is coming, Krsna is coming, oneness in variegated position.

Svami B. G. Narasingha, from Preface to "Follow the Angels":

 

In part three, Higher Talks, Srila Sridhara Maharaja reveals the highest ideal of guru-tattva: Gaura-Gadadhara in madhurya-rasa, and Radharani in Krsna-lila. If we raise our head a little higher and look up, then we shall find Radharani and Gurudeva. It is Radharani who is instrumental in accomplishing the function of Gurudeva from behind. The source of grace for the guru is coming from the original source of service and love.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja says, "We are requested not to see guru as limited in his ordinary personification, but as the transparent mediator of the highest function in his line. If only our vision is deep, we can see that according to the depth of our sraddha, our vision, guru-tattva is very peculiar, very noble, very broad, wide and very deep."

[Sarva gattah]

 

“This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming" (Bhag.11.2.38)

"Compared" never means exactly the same. That is why it is an analogy. There are many similarities between “This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna" and "acts of dreaming". If it is only a comparison then there are also differences. Look at the word "imaginary". Within it is the word "image". These English words have denotations and conotations. In current English usage imaginary implies a phantasmagoria. Within that word is the word "phantom" which at one time meant ghost. In a sense our material existence is ghost-like because we are haunted by bhukti and mukti.

Mystics and yogis can control their dreams but they can become so powerful that what they dream can manifest is the gross realm. Srila Prabhupada was definitely giving insight into the nature of consciousness of the jiva souls. None of the previous sages and acaryas are contradicting that, “This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming". In fact this is coming directly from Srimad Bhagavatam through the realization of of Srila Prabhupada.

As Guruvani was doing in a recent post, Srila Prabhupada was stressing the nature of our freedom to choose Krsna or Maya. Love must always be voluntary or it is not love. So from this viewpoint, we can see that the eternal lovers of Krsna could fall down if they wanted. Yet from another viewpoint since Maha Maya cannot enter the Vaikunthas it is not possible for those who have eternally loved Krsna to be allured by Her. And that is why no one ever really falls from Vaikuntha. Your additions to the Krsna Consciousness philosophy are based are taking analogies literally which is an error in logical thinking. Those who understand that analogies have limitations are not Mayavadis by that fact alone. But those who believe that some of the internal associates of the Lord are now rotting in the Material World and suffering the three-fold miseries are offenders to those exalted souls. Those who believe that once they go back to Godhead that they will never return to the Material World while the eternal associates of Bhagavan that they will rub shoulders with, will be falling down (or even dreaming such) have a poor fund of knowledge. The tradgedy is that they are now making an organized campaign to mislead others.

 

 

Somaka Swami has also stated in the past that there are abundant quotes in Prabhupada's books stating that Vaikuntha is a place from where there is no fall down

We should not be confused here because Somaka Swami is right, we NEVER falldown from Vaikuntha as our genuine identity or svarupa body however, we can 'think' or 'dream' we are fallen as Srila Prabhupada has explained to us.

Srila Prabhupada: - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently". Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

Srila Prabhupada: - "This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

 

 

 

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

 

 

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

Somaka Swami also quotes Srila Prabhupada saying -

 

"This ordinary living being is of two kinds -- nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings, are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.' SB 5.11.12 PURPORT

However Srila Prabhupada explains this verse in this way =

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated <st1:date Month="11" Day="14" Year="1968">November 14, 1968</st1:date>,

[Beggar]

As long as you, Sarva gattah, are quoting Prabhupada your fine. It's when you and your fellow travellers choose to embelish what he says is where the difficulty begins. We choose to harmonize what Srila Prabhupada says with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur and Srila Bhaktivinoka Thakur. We also find preachers in the off-shoots of the Gaudiya Math taking the same approach. We find that you and your camp are calling Prabhupada's godbothers and their disciples, many of which are acaryas in their own right, Mayavadis. This is deplorable.

 

Our Affectionate Guardians, Chapt. 6

 

It is said that offenses committed at the lotus feet of the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord distance one from devotional service of the Supreme Lord. In the highest sense, then, this means to be removed from the service of Sri Radha-who is seen as the representative of all servitors, the very embodiment of pure concentrated exalted devotional service of the highest caliber. Since all divine service to Krsna is being conducted under Her direction, to offend Her servitors is to make one unfit for Her divine service-hence the name is given--apa-radha.

The Lord is overly protective of His devotees (bhakta-vatsala). He cannot tolerate any offenses against them. They have bhakti (devotion), and they can awaken it within us. Bhakti is the sole means to attract Krsna, Who is a slave of devotion. The same is true of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. In Chaitanya-bhagavata, Madhya-lila 22.8, Vrndavana dasa Thakur states ,

 

vaisnavera thani ya're haya aporadha

krsna-krpa hoileo tare prema-badha

 

 

 

"If a person commits an offense at the lotus feet of a Vaishnava, even though he may have received Krsna's mercy, he will never attain divine love, prema."

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura writes,

 

Even if one is a Vaishnava, if he commits offenses to the Holy Name, he becomes unfit to render pure devotion. Although it may appear that he is still being shown favor by the Lord as he continues to make a show of chanting without difficulty, the Lord is actually very displeased with him because of his antagonism toward devotees. Therefore, to give up nama-aparadha we must first give up sadhu-ninda or finding fault with devotees.

 

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I'm not laughing any more, Beggar (per the other thread). A sobering thought you present here.

 

 

As long as you, Sarva gattah, are quoting Prabhupada your fine. It's when you and your fellow travellers choose to embelish what he says is where the difficulty begins. We choose to harmonize what Srila Prabhupada says with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur and Srila Bhaktivinoka Thakur. We also find preachers in the off-shoots of the Gaudiya Math taking the same approach. We find that you and your camp are calling Prabhupada's godbothers and their disciples, many of which are acaryas in their own right, Mayavadis. This is deplorable.

 

Our Affectionate Guardians, Chapt. 6

 

 

 

[cbrahma]

So how do jivas get enslaved in Maya?

[Shakti-Fan]

[sripad Dhrstadyumna Prabhu reads from Jaiva Dharma:] "Sannyasi Maharaja said, 'Prabhu, I want to understand this topic very clearly.'"

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] He very humbly said, "Prabhu, I want to know all these truths." When he said, 'to know', he meant, 'I want to realize something. I am not satisfied by the (mayavada) tattva I have been practicing. I want to be satisfied."

We should know that any example or analogy of this world cannot fully explain the transcendental world. Some examples can give us an idea, like, "Krsna is beautiful and black, like a cloud or like a tamal tree." It is not possible, however, to totally describe the transcendental world by any mundane worldly examples. Examples are given to express some idea, but there is nothing in this world that can fully compare with Krsna. Someone may ask, "Can you tell me where is the moon?" Another person will reply, "You can see it on the branch." The moon is not on the branch; it is millions of miles away. Still, some idea was given. The logic used to understand what is not within our understanding is thus called 'sakha-candra nyaya,' the logic of the moon on the branch.

By doing bhajana, by daily chanting Hare Krsna and hearing hari-katha in the correct process, with very strong belief, then, according to your advancement in bhajana, you can realize all the truths regarding this world and that absolute transcendental world. Logic will not satisfy you. One logical argument will defeat all other arguments, and then another logical argument will come and defeat all the previous arguments. Mundane logic and argument have no existence in the spiritual world.

svatah siddho vedo hari dayita vedhah prabhrtitah

pramanam sat praptam pramiti visayan tan nava vidhan

tatha pratyaksadi pramiti sahitam sadhayati nah

na yuktis tarkakhya pravisati tatha sakti rahita

"The self evident Vedas, which has been received in the sampradaya through guru parampara by recipients of Sri Hari's mercy, such as Brahmaji and others, are known as amnaya-vakya. The nine prayema tattvas are established by those amnaya-vakyas with the help of the other sastras, along with different types of evidence such as direct sense perception (pratyaksa), inasmuch as thy confirm the Vedic version. Reasoning that is only based on logic is always crippled when evaluating inconceivable subject matters, since logic and argument have no access in the realm of the inconceivable." (Dasamula 1)

acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet

prakrtibhyah param yac ca tad acintyasya laksanam

"All transcendental tattvas are beyond material nature, and are therefore inconceivable. Dry arguments are within the jurisdiction of material nature, so they can only be applied in mundane subject matters. They cannot even come close to transcendental tattvas, what to speak of grasping them. As far as inconceivable conceptions are concerned, the application of dry arguments is undesirable and useless." (Mahabharata, Bhisma parva 5.22)

[sripad Dhrstadyumna Prabhu reads from Jaiva Dharma:] "Babaji Mahasaya replied, 'Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, who was an object of the mercy of Sri Nityananda Prabhu, showed me a manuscript that he had written with his own hand. Sriman Mahaprabhu has instructed us on this subject in the book named Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 20.108) as follows:

jivera 'svarupa' haya - krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha-sakti', 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

"The constitutional nature of the jiva is to be an eternal servant of Sri Krsna. He is the marginal potency of Krsna, and is a manifestation simultaneously one with Him and different from Him.

krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha

ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha

"The jiva who has forgotten Krsna has been preoccupied with the external potency since time without beginning. Consequently, Krsna's illusory potency (maya) gives him misery in the form of material existence." (Cc Madhya 20.117)

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Can you explain the meaning of 'krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha'?

[syamarani dasi]: Caitanya Mahaprabhu is speaking to Sri Sanatana Gosvami about the nature of the jiva. 'Sei jiva' - that jiva who has forgotten Krsna since the beginning of time. 'Anadi-bahirmukha.' Caitanya Mahaprabhu explained to Sanatana Gosvami that there are two kinds of jivas, (1) the unmukha (liberated) jiva who is eternally engaged in his service in the spiritual world, and (2) the bahirmukha (conditioned) jiva who has turned his face against the Lord, who is different from that eternally liberated soul.

The conditioned jiva, who has never been in the spiritual world, is a product of the tatastha-sakti. He has emanated from there, and when given the choice by Lord Maha Visnu, he was attracted to the material nature. 'Sei jiva' - only that jiva, being attracted by the illusory energy, is being given all kinds of miseries in the form of material existence by that illusory energy.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] But why has it been said, 'krsna bhuli'? Does it mean that initially the jiva was remembering and serving Krsna in the spiritual world, but after sometime he forgot Him and fell down?

[sripad Asrama Maharaja:] One may say that this statement 'krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha' means that the jiva has forgotten Krsna and came to this material world.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] But Srila Swami Maharaja has never written in his books that the jiva has come from Goloka. What is the harm of saying that the jivas were in Goloka and then they made some mistakes and fell down to this material world?

[sripad Asrama Maharaja:] It's explained in Bhagavad-gita:

janma karma ca me divyam

evam yo vetti tattvatah

tyaktva deham punar janma

naiti mam eti so 'rjuna

"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." (Bg 4.9)

In the spiritual world there is svarupa-sakti, but there is no influence of maya-sakti. What to speak of the spiritual world, Mayadevi cannot even go to the Viraja River, the dividing line between the spiritual world and material world.*

There is no question of ignorance in the spiritual world. There the jivas are in their svarupa, transcendental forms, and there is no question of them forgetting their relationship with the Lord and falling onto this material world. Sastra states that they are not aware of this material world.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] If the jivas fell from there, there would be no use of doing so much sadhana and bhajana. If you do bhajana and go to the spiritual world, and then you come to the material world - what is the use of doing bhajana? It is better to stay here. If that jiva falls down from Goloka Vrndavana, it would mean that maya also exists in Goloka Vrndavana. There are no words and no language to explain this. By the influence of maya there is a certain vocabulary here, and we use certain words, but you will have to purify your understanding of those words by sadhana-bhajana. You cannot understand by words alone, because mundane language does not reach beyond matter. Still, even though there is some impurity and defect, sastra will have to use this mundane language to give an idea.

[sripad Madhava Maharaja:] We have heard from our guru-parampara and we have seen in the scriptures:

na tad bhasayate suryo

na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

["That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." (BG 15.6)]

After going to the spiritual world, the eternal abode of Krsna, one will never come back to this material world. All jivas are doing sadhana-bhajana to attain the service of the Divine Couple. We should try our level best to go back to Godhead. If, after going there the jiva is falling down, then what is the use of doing sadhana-bhajana? Moreover, if they don't fall down, what to say about jivas who are the eternal associates of Krsna, such as sakhas like Subala, Sridama, and Madhumangala; parents like Nanda Baba and Yasoda Maiya; and all gopis, especially Srimati Radhika. It is not possible for them to fall down from there.

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura use the words 'krsna bhuli' only to give us an idea, and to make us understand. It is like sakha-candra nyaya-the logic of the moon on a branch. We have to understand through our guru-parampara; and then we can understand properly. If we try to understand through the speculation of mind or by our mental exercise, we cannot understand. We have to surrender ourselves to lotus feet of Gurudeva.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] There are very deep meanings in all the slokas of Srimad Bhagavatam, and they need to be explained. These slokas state that no one can fall from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha to this material world. Jaya and Vijaya wanted to please their Prabhu Narayana because He wanted to taste vira-rasa, and it was for this reason that Narayana attracted the four Kumaras to come to see Him in Vaikuntha. Neither anger, nor lust, nor any bad qualities are present in Vaikuntha, but Narayana inspired Yogamaya to make them angry. They became angry and cursed Jaya and Vijaya, and when they repented just after doing so, Narayana told them, "Don't be worried. I wanted this. Jaya and Vijaya will go to the material world for three lifetimes in their manifestation forms and, at the same time, they will remain in the spiritual world in their original forms. I will perform pastimes of vira-rasa with them in the material world."

Citraketu Maharaja was in the same position, and Bharata Maharaja, who was in the position of rati (bhava-bhakti), never fell. These devotees performed pastimes of 'falling down' only to give lessons to jivas like us.

Similarly, Narada Muni also performed a pastime in which he appeared to have he become bewildered. He once conquered Kamadeva, Cupid, and after that he proudly thought, "Even my Guru, Sankara, ran after Maya. When he saw Mohini, having forgotten that it was Krsna who had become Mohini, he became like a madman and ran after 'Her.' His deerskin fell off as he ran, and he kept running even though he had become naked. Parvati came and asked him, 'What are you doing?!' but he remained unaware of her presence and continued running after Mohini. But Kamadeva (Cupid) came to me, and he could not do anything."

Narada then went to Sankara and told him, "I have conquered Kamadeva," then he went to Brahma told him the same thing, and then he went to Lord Narayana and told Him the same. Narayana saw that false ego, like a disease, had now come to Narada, and He thought, "I will remove this disease by an operation. His disease is like piles, and he will not be cured of it without My performing an operation." He replied to Narada, "You are My best devotee. I'm very proud of you."

Later, as Narada was returning to this universe, he saw a very, very beautiful kingdom, and he saw a king and his only daughter. That girl was extremely lovely and, in wonder, Narada considered that he had never seen such beauty before. He went to the king and said, "I want to see her future." He then took the hand of that princess in his, and thought, "How can I marry this girl?" After seeing her hand, he went away and began to meditate on his Prabhu, Lord Narayana. Narayana at once appeared in his meditation and asked, "What do you want?" Narada prayed, "O, please help me. I want to marry that girl. Please give me a form which is as beautiful as Yours." Narayana replied, "All auspisciousness to you. All benedictions to you. I will do what is best for you."

Narada now thought that Narayana had fulfilled his desires and given him a form similar to His own, with a very beautiful face, and he was satisfied. He returned to the King, and at that time that girl was having a svayambhava ceremony, the function in which a princess chooses her husband. She took a very beautiful garland and she was preparing to garland to the man who most attracted her, after which they would be married. Narada kept walking wherever that girl walked, showing his face to her and hoping she would give him the garland. Although she looked disgusted and went to another place whenever she looked at him, Narada still followed her everywhere to attract her attention. In the meantime, one of the associates of Sankara told him, "Oh, you are so beautiful." Narada thought the associate of Sankara was telling the truth, but actually he was joking and ridiculing him. In the meantime, Lord Narayana Himself came to that place on Garuda, and when the girl saw Him, she put the garland around His neck. Then, without a minute's delay, Narayana took her on His lap, on Garuda, and quickly flew away.

Narada thought, "He is a very wicked person. I have served Him without any desire. Only this once did I have a desire. I wanted to marry this girl, and I asked for His beautiful face. I should see what face I have." Narada saw in a mirror, or in water, that he had the face of a black Indian monkey, like a baboon - and he became completely disturbed. He at once flew to Vaikuntha, and there he saw that very girl sitting where Laksmi usually sits. Narada then told Narayana, "You have cheated me. I curse You that You will weep, as I am weeping for this lady." In the meantime Narayana took away His maya, and Narada saw that the girl was actually Laksmi. Narayana said, "I performed this operation only to remove your false ego and pride." Narada then fell flat at Narayana's feet and apologized. This incident became the cause of Lord Ramacandra's appearance.

This pastime was manifest by Krsna, or Narayana, through the agency of Yogamaya, only to give instructions to all jivas. We should not think that Narada fell from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, and was covered by maya. By the wish of Krsna, devotees can do anything to fulfill the desires of their Prabhu. We should understand that jivas cannot fall from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

[Raghunatha Bhatta dasa:] Why does the living entity have minute independence?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] He always has independence, whether he is here or there. This is because he is cit, not acit, and this is the symptom of cit-pardarta (the conscious entity). He always has independence, whether he is here in bondage, or there in the spiritual world.

[Raghunatha Bhatta dasa:] The living entity has a choice to go to Goloka, using his independence. If he has no sadhu-sanga at the tatastha region, how will he know what is maya and what is Krsna? How will he know where to go?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Krsna is very powerful, and He wants that all should come to Him and serve Him in the spiritual world. He never wants anyone to be separated from Him and be unhappy. He wants the jivas to desire to be with Him; so He wants to arrange anything favorable and for them to go to Him - as He did in Brhad Bhagavatamrtam. Krsna knows everything. If He sees that a jiva has some little desire there to serve Him, and he is sincere, He will arrange that he can go to the spiritual world and be with Him there. But each jiva is independent. If he misuses his independence, then he will go down to the material world. If he looks towards the spiritual world from the tatastha region he will go there by the help of Yogamaya, and if he looks towards the material world, he will come to the material world under the influence of Mayadevi.

Gaura premanande

[* Karanbdhi pare mayara nitya avasthiti / virajara pare paravyome nahi gati. The Viraja, or Causal Ocean, is the border between the spiritual world and material worlds. The material energy is situated on one shore of that ocean, and cannot enter onto the other shore, which is the spiritual sky." (Cc. Mad. 20.269)

[Sarva gattah]

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] If the jivas fell from there, there would be no use of doing so much sadhana and bhajana. If you do bhajana and go to the spiritual world, and then you come to the material world - what is the use of doing bhajana? It is better to stay here. If that jiva falls down from Goloka Vrndavana, it would mean that maya also exists in Goloka Vrndavana. There are no words and no language to explain this. By the influence of maya there is a certain vocabulary here, and we use certain words, but you will have to purify your understanding of those words by sadhana-bhajana. You cannot understand by words alone, because mundane language does not reach beyond matter. Still, even though there is some impurity and defect, sastra will have to use this mundane language to give an idea. ..

 

The conditioned jiva, who has never been in the spiritual world, is a product of the tatastha-sakti. He has emanated from there, and when given the choice by Lord Maha Visnu, he was attracted to the material nature. 'Sei jiva' - only that jiva, being attracted by the illusory energy, is being given all kinds of miseries in the form of material existence by that illusory energy.

)

 

Many have misunderstood the meaning of tatastha and how the jiva soul originally 'came' down from Goloka. Nararanya Maharaj is right - no-one falls down from Goloka we NEVER falldown from Vaikuntha as our genuine identity or svarupa body however, we can 'think' or 'dream' we are fallen as Srila Prabhupada has explained to us.

 

Srila Prabhupada: - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently". Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

Srila Prabhupada: - "This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

 

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga

Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

 

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

Many also quotes Srila Prabhupada saying -

 

"This ordinary living being is of two kinds -- nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings, are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.' SB 5.11.12 Purport

 

However Srila Prabhupada explains this verse in this way =

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968

 

Srila Prabhupada – "In further reference to your question about the form of the spirit soul of the conditioned living entity, there is a spiritual form always, but it developes fully only when the living entity goes back to Vaikuntha. This form develops according to the desire of the living entity. Until this perfectional stage is reached, the form is lying dormant like the form of a tree is lying dormant in the seed." (Srila Prabhupada's letter to Rupanaga in 1969)

 

Many 'literally' believe, just as they foolishly believe we are actual atoms or sparks in some living effulgence, that our siddha ’svarupa’ is currently in seed form only”.

 

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally.

 

The correct understanding of 'seed form' realy means our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within the eternal imperishable realm Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words ‘we’ are already there and we just have to become ‘Krishna consciously pure enough to realize it’

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

We (the jiva-tatasthas) have never manifested because we have always existed, we (the marginal living entities) are not a region, PLANE or place in creation. The marginal plane IS the individual independent living beings, the marginal energy, jiva-soul or tatastha-s’akti therefore is NOT a position or area in creation as Akruranatha prabhu also correctly explained to us. The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serving the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

 

Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires.

 

Someone humbly present this to Narayana Maharaj - "Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva souls sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires, or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place or plane in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation as a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti, or some 'plain sheet' of uniform consciousness, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand by all of us.

Therefore JIVA TATASTHA refers to us, the living entities who are presently covered by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels)

 

How have we fallen to the material world?

 

We have all attained our present condition of existence in the material creation due to firstly choosing between the Lord’s two energies. We all have our genuine place or full Krishna Conscious potential in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is everlastingly there, yet also always have the choice to remain aware of our perpetual svarupa body and genuine identity in Vaikuntha that is constantly serving Krishna. We therefore can use our God given ‘marginal’ free will to foolishly enter the perishable universe of imagination and fleeting dreams as our mistaken desires and thoughts to achieve absolute power over all I purvey. However, in our forgetful state we forget that all our desires, dreams and thoughts are given the facility to exist only by the mercy of Maha-Vishnu who is the great facilitator of His maha-tattva creation.

 

Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy or plane because they ARE the marginal energy and are therefore ETERNALLY called jiva-tatastha.

 

The marginal living beings (jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti) are autonomous expansion of Lord Krishna that has no beginning, no origin, or ending. They can choose to remain Krishna Conscious in their full devotional potential or transcendental body under the loving supervision of the superior energy (Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in Vaikuntha), or be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) In both cases the Supreme Lord is the origin and maintainer of the living entities, whether in their perpetual natural ‘svarupa’ Krishna conscious devotional service in Goloka or Vaikuntha, or if they have chosen to miss use their free will to abandon who they really are by entering the transitory illusionary dreams of greatness and chasing such desires within Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming temporary creation (mahat tattva).

"

If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

 

“The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time”. Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

The statement above clearly explains how the imperishable higher feature of the jiva-tatastha is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ which is ones perpetual constitutional position that is eternal present in Vaikuntha. The permanent characteristic of the jiva tatastha is ones eternal svarupa body which is the perpetual constitutional original position of all marginal living beings.

 

Consequently the secondary conscious characteristic of the jiva tatastha that becomes covered by the inferior energy or mahat-tattva, is nothing other than a dreaming condition that temporarily exists while the one unconscious of their full constitutional bodily foundation in Goloka. The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entities (jiva-souls) have always existed without beginning or end. Srila Prabhupada explains this -

 

“For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?”Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.20 - 21

 

“The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same”. Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.23 - 24

 

In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka. Tatastha s’akti refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being (you and I) and IS ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality and desires that communicate our own autonomous way of thinking of how to serve and please Krishna in a selfless manner, that remains that way for all eternity. This loving exchange or reciprocation with Krishna and His devotees is the purpose of all marginal living entities and why they have free will. It is simply there so the living entity can express their own splendid loving exchanges of humble devotion service and gratitude to Krishna, in their own unique way. If there is no such choice of expression and free will, then how can there be love?

 

We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable superior energy (Lord Krishna), where our authentic everlasting genuine bodily self is always serving Krishna, or we can ignore Krishna and who we really are altogether, and take shelter (not as a perpetual svarupa body) within the perishable inferior energy (mahat-tattva material creation) of Maha Vishnu.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Many have misunderstood the meaning of tatastha and how the jiva soul originally 'came' down from Goloka. Nararanya Maharaj is right - no-one falls down from Goloka...

 

Pretends to agree but CONTRADICTS

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] But Srila Swami Maharaja has never written in his books that the jiva has come from Goloka.

In the spiritual world there is svarupa-sakti, but there is no influence of maya-sakti. What to speak of the spiritual world, Mayadevi cannot even go to the Viraja River, the dividing line between the spiritual world and material world.

There is no question of ignorance in the spiritual world. There the jivas are in their svarupa, transcendental forms, and there is no question of them forgetting their relationship with the Lord and falling onto this material world. Sastra states that they are not aware of this material world.

[Beggar]

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:]

We should know that any example or analogy of this world cannot fully explain the transcendental world. Some examples can give us an idea, like, "Krsna is beautiful and black, like a cloud or like a tamal tree." It is not possible, however, to totally describe the transcendental world by any mundane worldly examples. Examples are given to express some idea, but there is nothing in this world that can fully compare with Krsna. Someone may ask, "Can you tell me where is the moon?" Another person will reply, "You can see it on the branch." The moon is not on the branch; it is millions of miles away. Still, some idea was given. The logic used to understand what is not within our understanding is thus called 'sakha-candra nyaya,' the logic of the moon on the branch.

By doing bhajana, by daily chanting Hare Krsna and hearing hari-katha in the correct process, with very strong belief, then, according to your advancement in bhajana, you can realize all the truths regarding this world and that absolute transcendental world. Logic will not satisfy you. One logical argument will defeat all other arguments, and then another logical argument will come and defeat all the previous arguments. Mundane logic and argument have no existence in the spiritual world.

I find this part very interesting an inciteful:

 

The logic used to understand what is not within our understanding is thus called 'sakha-candra nyaya,' the logic of the moon on the branch.

The Sleeper-Vadis like Sarva gatah think that Srila Prabhupada's analogies which are actually coming from the sastra and previous acaryas (along with his own uniqueness) are the transcendental substance itself which is hereby compared to the moon. Actually when analogies are used by guru, sadhu and sastra they direct our eyes to the branch, it's up to us to "see" moon slightly above the branch and this is jnana. Believing that the branch is the moon or even somehow intrinsically tied to the moon is rather immature and less intellegent or ajana. But jnana itself is not actual realization that is transcendental, and descending - vijnana, which is leading to Krsna prema. That is why this argument and should be tabled while everyone goes back to really, sincerely trying to practice sadhana bhakti and serve guru and the Vaisnavas. I know these things but it raises my ire when the gurus and sadhus are coming under attack. Still, arguing incessently about these things is not a limb of sadhana bhakti and some point the whole thing becomes offensive.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Pretends to agree but CONTRADICTS

 

Spiritual life is full of apparent contradictions. Please HUMBLY inform EVERYONE that there is absolutely no difference between Srila Prabhupada's books, class lectures and morning walks. HE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THIS FACT

Also, in all due respects, he is wrong by saying - "Srila Swami Maharaja has never written in his books that the jiva has come from Goloka"

Srila Prabhupada told us - “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are NOT fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

Srila Prabhupada – “We came down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” letter to Madhuvisa Swami 1972 <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada "The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Srila Prabhupada “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada: “Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

[Vedesu]

 

That is why this argument and should be tabled while everyone goes back to really, sincerely trying to practice sadhana bhakti and serve guru and the Vaisnavas. I know these things but it raises my ire when the gurus and sadhus are coming under attack. Still arguing incessently about these things is not a limb of sadhana bhakti and some point the whole thing becomes offensive.

 

Exactly. It's one thing to discuss/debate siddhanta. Another thing altogether to fanatically preach, almost to the exclusion of everything else, something which is totally unrelated to sadhana bhakti and the utter importance of hearing, chanting, remembering, serving, etc, and developing the qualities necessary for proper hearing and chanting such as humility, tolerance, giving all respect and honor to others (what to speak of senior Vaishnavas) and not expecting any honor in return. When this form of so-called preaching crosses over into the realm of Vaishnava aparadha, then it can no longer be considered bhakti. The jiva fall issue was not a major point of emphasis for Srila Prabhupada, nor for Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila B.P. Puri Maharaja and Srila Narayana Maharaja. Those who preach incessantly about their concocted version, all the while making vicious accusations against senior, if not pure Vaishnavas, are most definitely not representing Srila Prabhupada. Their form of preaching will not create new devotees. Nor will it encourage or enliven already-made devotees. There is no taste in this. Most devotees will turn their backs on such discussions, except for those few who feel the need to defend the vicious attacks on pure Vaishnavas who are truly spreading the glories of Sri Nama Prabhu around the world.

 

I say live and let live, believe as you like, but please refrain from Vaishnava aparadha, for it is debilitating not only for the speaker of such, but the audience as well, which is why I have found the ignore button to be such an invaluable feature on these forums. I enjoy visiting here occasionally, but I appreciate having the freedom to choose who I wish to hear from, and will gratefully acknowledge the informative posts of sincere devotees like Beggar, Mahak, Murali Mohan, Kulapavana, Guruvani, Stonehearted, Shakti-Fan, Nsringhadev, Audarya-lila prabhus and I'm sure a few others whom I've momentarily forgotten.

[Guruvani]

It appears to me that there is maybe only ONE sleepervadi active on this forum, though he uses several different user names to make it look like others are agreeing with him.

There are other sleepervadis on the web like Kailasa Chandra das and probably some others.

There are a couple more posting on the dandavats website.

They seem to gravitate to that website more because it is more "ISKCON" centric and there are more sleepervadis there to pat each other on the back.

 

I have just about exhausted my interest to debate and defeat the sleepervadis.

I am satisfied that most of the more informed devotees on this forum do not support or to the sleepervadi superstition.

 

The kind of fanaticism about this issue is perfectly exemplified by Kailasa Candra das on his so-called "Vaishnava Foundation" website where he ends an article on how the jiva falls from Vaikuntha by saying:

 

 

 

We cannot possibly get free from this dreadful land

 

 

as long as we allow this impersonalism to stand.

 

http://therealexplanation.org/article/how_stand.html

People like him are on a campaign to declare that the Gaudiya Matha, Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Narayana Maharaja, Puri Maharaja etc. etc. are preaching mayavada philosophy because they do not support the fall-from-vaikuntha fairtytale.

 

It is this kind of extremism and fanaticism that I have personally taken issue with and tried in my own small way to challenge and defeat.

 

I am satisified that any rational and reasonable person who doesn't have an ISKCON political agenda will see who is right and who is wrong based upon all the shastric evidence that has come out on this issue.

 

I think the sleepervadis have been defeated strongly and they are only hanging on to their false pride, false egos and ISKCON political agenda out of arrogance and conceit.

 

So, seeing that they have been defeated publicly on the forum and on other websites I am just about ready to declare victory and let the enemy take a body count of all the sleepervadis who have been defeated in this battle.

[Beggar]

 

 

So, seeing that they have been defeated publicly on the forum and on other websites I am just about ready to declare victory and let the enemy take a body count of all the sleepervadis who have been defeated in this battle.

 

You're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Sleeper-Vadi Zone!

You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension: a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into... the Sleeper-Vadi Zone.

There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call "The Sleeper-Vadi Zone".

[Guruvani]

a sleepervadi has a body in Golok so far away

but he went to sleep to dream and weep in maya here to stay

[CCC]

I have found this very interesting from Bhagavad Gita Introduction:

 

"The Lord says, na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah. yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. One who can approach that spiritual sky is not required to descend again to the material sky. In the material sky, even if we approach the highest planet (Brahmaloka), what to speak of the moon, we will find the same conditions of life, namely birth, death, disease and old age. No planet in the material universe is free from these four principles of material existence. Therefore the Lord says in Bhagavad-gita, abrahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino 'rjuna. The living entities are traveling from one planet to another, not by a mechanical arrangement but by a spiritual process."

"One should desire and hanker after that supreme kingdom, for when one attains that kingdom, he does not have to return to this material world."

[suchandra]

 

 

I think the sleepervadis have been defeated strongly and they are only hanging on to their false pride, false egos and ISKCON political agenda out of arrogance and conceit.

 

So, seeing that they have been defeated publicly on the forum and on other websites I am just about ready to declare victory and let the enemy take a body count of all the sleepervadis who have been defeated in this battle.

Defeated - so far I didnt see anyone of the sleepervadis admitting defeat.

Seems like this world is made as such that nothing becomes really waterproof so to speak. Therefore Krishna says, yada yada hi dharmaysya, since there're ongoing declines in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion — I have to constantly personally descend Myself and stop those mad kamikaze pilots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Defeated - so far I didnt see anyone of the sleepervadis admitting defeat.

 

Aren't there stories of dedicated Japanese soldiers holding out on small South Pacific islands for many years after Japan officially surrendered at the end of World War II?

 

This situation reminds me of that Monty Python bit with the kaniggit (knight) who insists on fighting even after losing his limbs:

 

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071853/quotes

 

 

King Arthur: You fight with the strength of many men, Sir Knight.

[the Black Knight doesn't respond]

King Arthur: I am Arthur, King of the Britons.

[No response]

King Arthur: I seek the bravest and the finest knights in the land who will join me in my court at Camelot.

[No response]

King Arthur: You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me?

[No response]

King Arthur: You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy!

[Attempts to get around the Black Knight]

Black Knight: None shall pass.

King Arthur: What?

Black Knight: None shall pass!

King Arthur: I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Knight. But I must cross this bridge.

Black Knight: Then you shall die.

King Arthur: I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!

Black Knight: I move for no man.

King Arthur: So be it!

[They fight until Arthur cuts off Black Knight's left arm]

King Arthur: Now, stand aside, worthy adversary!

Black Knight: 'Tis but a scratch!

King Arthur: A scratch? Your arm's off!

Black Knight: No, it isn't!

King Arthur: Well, what's that then?

King Arthur: I've had worse.

King Arthur: You liar!

Black Knight: Come on, you pansy!

[They fight again. Arthur cuts off the Knight's right arm]

King Arthur: Victory is mine!

[Kneels to pray]

King Arthur: We thank thee, Lord, that in thy mercy -

[Cut off by the Knight kicking him]

Black Knight: Come on, then.

King Arthur: What?

Black Knight: Have at you!

King Arthur: You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine!

Black Knight: Oh, had enough, eh?

King Arthur: Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left!

[Svarupa]

 

Quote:

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We cannot possibly get free from this dreadful land

 

 

 

 

 

as long as we allow this impersonalism to stand.

 

http://therealexplanation.org/article/how_stand.html

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

"This ordinary living being is of two kinds -- nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings, are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.' SB 5.11.12 PURPORT

 

However Srila Prabhupada explains this verse in this way

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

Srila Prabhupada “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

 

Many have misunderstood the meaning of tatastha and how the jiva soul originally 'came' down from Goloka. Nararanya Maharaj is right - no-one falls down from Goloka we NEVER falldown from Vaikuntha as our genuine identity or svarupa body however, we can all 'think' or 'dream' we are fallen as Srila Prabhupada has explained to us, it is this point that Narayana Maharaj and his follloweres cannot understand. This is simply stating a fact.

 

Srila Prabhupada: - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently".Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968.

 

Someone humbly present this to Narayana Maharaj - "Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva souls sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires, or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place, plane or area of living 'sparks and atoms' in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation as a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti, or some 'plain sheet' of uniform IMPERSONAL consciousness, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Serving Lord Krishna perpetually as ones eternal nitya-siddha body), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva's ethereal and biological vessels) This is an important point for Narayana Maharaj and all of us to humbly, selflessly and sincerely understand. Therefore JIVA TATASTHA refers to us, the living entities who are presently covered by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels)

 

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

 

Many 'literally' believe, just as they foolishly believe we are actual atoms or sparks in some living effulgence they incorrectly call tatastha-s'akti, that our siddha ’svarupa’ is currently in seed form only when in actual fact our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and always has been.

 

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally.

 

The correct understanding of 'seed form' realy means our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within the eternal imperishable realm Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words ‘we’ are already there and we just have to become ‘Krishna consciously pure enough to realize it’

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

In all due respects,Narayana Maharaj is completely wrong by saying - "Srila Swami Maharaja has never written in his books that the jiva has come from Goloka"

[Beggar]

 

In all due respects,Narayana Maharaj is completely wrong by saying - "Srila Swami Maharaja has never written in his books that the jiva has come from Goloka"

But all your quotes you use to justify your philosophy are from sources other than the books.

[Vigraha]

 

But all your quotes you use to justify your philosophy are from sources other than the books.

 

There is no difference between Prabhupada's books, tapes, letters, morning walks and classes.

[Beggar]

Now the Sleeper-vadis are contradicting themselves. First we are told,

 

In all due respects, Narayana Maharaj is completely wrong by saying - "Srila Swami Maharaja has never written in his books that the jiva has come from Goloka"

Then I replied,

 

But all your quotes you use to justify your philosophy are from sources other than the books.

I wrote this because there is no quote in Srila Prabhupada's books that say, "the jiva has come from Goloka".

Then the Sleeper-Vadi phantom(s) equivocate by replying,

 

There is no difference between Prabhupada's books, tapes, letters, morning walks and classes.

First off, this is a dishonest response given it's context. If this were a college debate such a response would lead to the Sleeper-Vadi debater(s) being disqualified by the judges.

I know there is a quote from Srila Prabhupada stating that, "whatever I have come to give is in my books". I'm searching for the exact quote with dates so if anyone can help it would be appreciated. Srila Sridhar Maharaja also has explained that in this yuga with it's books, that the books of the guru will always be given precedence over what is given in conversations and letters. This is because that what is given in letters and conversations may be only for the persons present in that particular time, place and circumstance.

 

 

"Use common sense and if you have none then consult with others."

 

- Srila Prabhupada Letter to: Vidya -- Vrindaban 25 October, 1976

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Svarupa]

"Prabhu" there is no difference between Prabhupada's books, tapes, letters, morning walks and classes. Such propaganda and nonsense statements are coming from that Nararanya Maharaj because, lets face the facts, he needs to 'use' Prabhupada to spread his own propaganda, but won't join Prabhupada. Not too long ago he made that very clear by saying in Navadwip - "I am not ISKCON I am Gaudiya math":rolleyes:

Also being completely honest and truthful is not being offensive , but if you or anyone else take offense, then that there your problem. Actually you and those 'head' cases Guruvani and Murali_Mohan_das are the ones committing 'grave' offenses by calling us 'Sleeper-vadis' At least I'm not calling Narayana Maharaja a MAYA - VADI

 

Hare Krishna

[Svarupa]

 

You and Guruvani plus the’ so called’ swamis and guru’s who support such nonsense do not understand that ‘seed form’ means our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words ‘we’ are already there and we just have to become Krishna consciously 'realized' enough to realize who we genuinly are for all eternity as our imperisgable svarupa or nitya-siddha body.

 

The real offensive Mayavadis are those who cannot understand the simple teachings of Srila Prabhupada who has said on many occasions we are eternally in Goloka and only think or dream we are not there.

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Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture " />

Srila Prabhupada –"When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

[font=/><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

[font=][font=/><st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

<FONT]Krishna" /><st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated <st1:date Year="1967" Day="27" Month="8">August 27, 1967</st1:date>

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5>This 'clearly means' our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>, <st1:date Year="1972" Day="27" Month="12">December 27, 1972</st1:date>

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

<FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada - "When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka.

This for the benifit of those who are not polluted by those who think we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti anD want to know the real truth of how all of us ORIGINATED FROM THE PERSONAL PASTIMES OF KRISHNA IN GOLOKA OR VAIKUNTHA, and follow the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, rather than those SO CALLED SWAMIS AND GURUS trying to use him to establish their own following