Why did Srila Prabhupada promote the fairytale?

[Guruvani 0]

 

You guys are not arguing with "my interpretation" you are arguing against direct unequivocal statements by the acaryas.

You come off like you are some kind of finished professor who has it all figured out.

You ignore the shastric statements that all the devotees of Krishna in Goloka are manifested via sandhini shakti.

 

Krishna has one spiritual energy Radha that is manifested in phases.

As the jiva becomes inbued with hladini and sandhini shakti the jiva enters a more advanced phase and graduates from jiva shakti to become a manifestation of sandhini shakti.

 

None of the devotees of Krishna in Goloka are manifested from jiva shakti.

When they enter Krishna-lila they become a manifestation of the sandhini shakti.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.65, purport

 

To make this more clear, it may be said that this sandhinī-śakti of the internal potency maintains and manifests all the variegatedness of the spiritual world. In the kingdom of God, the Lord's servants and maidservants, His consorts, His father and mother and everything else are all transformations of the spiritual existence of sandhinī-śakti.

We are not arguing with the acharyas.

They have made it clear that the parshadas of Krishna in Goloka are all manifestions of sandhini shakti not tatastha shakti.

 

There are marginal jivas and mutka jivas that manifest not from the tatastha shakti but from the internal spiritual sandhini shakti.

 

The Mukta-jiva is not a marginal jiva.

He has gone way beyond marginal existence to become integrated into the internal shakti of Krishna.

 

Besides that, there are some devotees who have differnces with the way some of the writings of Bhaktivinoda Thakur have been translated.

 

 

What you are quoting is not direct writings of Bhaktivinoda.

It is somebody's interpretation.

 

The liberated devotees of Krishna are not particles of spirit.

They are parshada-deha (spiritual bodies in service to Krishna).

 

They are not spirit sparks anymore.

They are spirit forms in Goloka.

[gHari 0]

x = a + b

 

and

 

b = 4

[shiva 0]

Guruvani ou wrote

 

 

None of the devotees of Krishna in Goloka are manifested from jiva shakti.

When they enter Krishna-lila they become a manifestation of the sandhini shakti.

 

Here is what I posted already from Bhaktivinoda, please read it carefully:

 

 

Jiva-sakti is the atomic potency of svarupa-sakti, and all three aspects of svarupa-sakti (hladini, samvit, sandhini) are present in it to a minute degree. Thus, the hladini-vrtti is always present in the jiva in the form of brahmananda (spiritual bliss); samvit-vrtti is present in the form of brahma-jnana (transcendental knowledge); and sandhini-vrtti is present in the jiva’s minute form. I will explain this subject matter more clearly when we discuss jiva-tattva. In maya-sakti, the hladini vrtti is manifest in the form of mundane pleasure (jadananda); samvit-vrtti is manifest in the form of material knowledge (bhautika-jnana); and the sandhini-sakti is manifest in the form of the entire material universe, which consists of the fourteen planetary systems and the material bodies of the jivas...

 

... You have explained that cit-sakti, jiva-sakti, and maya-sakti are three manifestations of svarupa-sakti; that hladini, samvit, and sandhini are three functions (vrttis) of svarupa sakti; and that these three functions – namely, hladini, samvit, and sandhini – act on the three manifestations, cit-sakti, jiva-sakti, and maya-sakti. All of this is simply the work of sakti.

 

As he explains the sandhini manifests the forms of the jiva in the spiritual and material world. The jiva IS tatastha sakti, sandhini "acts on the jiva sakti". The jiva is not sandhini sakti, sandhini sakti is one aspect of cit sakti, the other two aspects being samvit and hladini, and they each appear in a minute quantity in the jiva. The samvit acts upon the jiva by manifesting knowledge, hladini acts upon the jiva by manifesting bliss or pleasure, and sandhini acts upon the jiva by manifesting his spiritual and material forms. The jiva is neither sandhini, nor samvit, nor hladini, but he possesses each in minute quantities whether he is in the material or spiritual world.

 

More from Bhaktivinoda

 

 

By the influence of the sandhini on the jiva sakti, the jiva's spiritual existence, name and place appear. Through the influence of samvit on the jiva sakti the knowledge of God arises. Through the hladini influence the jiva experiences spiritual bliss. The jiva's experience of bliss of samadhi by practicing astanga yoga and merging into brahman are also the effects of the samvit on the jiva.

 

By the influence of sandhini on maya sakti, the material universe composed of fourteen material planetary systems, the gross and subtle bodies of the jivas and material senses, and the goals of the jivas such as svaga, are manifested. The material name, form qualities and actions of the conditioned jiva all arise from this. By the influence of the samvit on the maya sakti, the worries, hopes, speculations and thoughts of the conditioned jiva arise. By the influence of hladini on the maya sakti, gross material bliss and the subtle material happiness of svarga arise.

 

One should understand that the sandhini, samvit and hladini manifest their pure, full form in the cit sakti. In the jiva sakti, these appear in very minute quantity. In the maya sakti these appear in a perverted or shadow form

 

The jiva is influenced by sandhini, and samvit, and hladini, they each play their part in manifesting the jiva, but the jiva is none of them, the jiva is tatastha sakti wherever he is, that is his constitutional nature:

 

 

jivera 'svarupa' haya -- krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha-sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara 'sakti' haya

 

SYNONYMS

 

jivera -- of the living entity; svarupa -- the constitutional position; haya -- is; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa -- eternal servant; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tatastha -- marginal; sakti -- potency; bheda-abheda -- one and different; prakasa -- manifestation; surya-amsa -- part and parcel of the sun; kirana -- a ray of sunshine; yaiche -- as; agni-jvala-caya -- molecular particle of fire; svabhavika -- naturally; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara -- three varieties; sakti -- energies; haya -- there are.

 

TRANSLATION

 

It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

 

 

The swarupa sakti manifests the tatastha sakti (the jiva) through it's 3 component part i.e. sandhini, samvit, and hladini. They are each present in the jiva and aid in manifesting the jiva. But the jiva is tatastha sakti, that is simply what a jiva is, all that tatastha means is that the jiva is not Cit Sakti and not Maya Sakti.

 

For you to keep claiming that the jiva in the spiritual world is not tatastha is in direct contradiction to what the acaryas I have quoted have said on this topic.

 

You keep quoting this from Prabhupada as if it negates everything else said on this topic by Srila Prabhupada and the acaryas

 

 

To make this more clear, it may be said that this sandhinī-śakti of the internal potency maintains and manifests all the variegatedness of the spiritual world. In the kingdom of God, the Lord's servants and maidservants, His consorts, His father and mother and everything else are all transformations of the spiritual existence of sandhinī-śakti.

 

All he is saying is what the other acaryas have said, sandhini manifests the forms of the people, places, and things of the spritual world. It also does that in the material world as well, as Bhaktivinoda mentioned

 

 

In maya-sakti (the mahat tattva or material world), the hladini vrtti is manifest in the form of mundane pleasure (jadananda); samvit-vrtti is manifest in the form of material knowledge (bhautika-jnana); and the sandhini-sakti is manifest in the form of the entire material universe, which consists of the fourteen planetary systems and the material bodies of the jiva

[Guruvani 0]

 

Brahma Samhita:

ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhis

tabhir ya eva nija-rupataya kalabhih

goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

["I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency (hladini). Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa."]

The gopis are all extensions of the bodily form of Sri Radha.

They are as such manifested via hladini shakti not jiva shakti.

If one attains the position of a gopi of Krishna then such a living being is not a manifestation of the marginal shakti of Krishna but a manifestation of hladini shakti.

 

The jiva is a seed.

Seeds grow into plants.

 

When the seed grows into a plant is it no longer a seed, it is a plant.

 

When the seed of the jiva grows with the bhakti-lata bija it become a creeper of devotion not a spiritual seed.

 

Seeds grow into something much greater.

The seeds of the jivas can grow into something much greater with the bhakti-lata bija.

 

The soul grows with the creeper of devotion.

As such, it is only a seed or spirit spark until it grows into a creeper of devotion.

[shiva 0]

 

The gopis are all extensions of the bodily form of Sri Radha.

They are as such manifested via hladini shakti not jiva shakti.

If one attains the position of a gopi of Krishna then such a living being is not a manifestation of the marginal shakti of Krishna but a manifestation of hladini shakti.

 

 

Sandhini manifests all forms in the spiritual world, including Radha and Krishna, their expansions, and the jiva's forms. Hladini manifests bliss, Samvit manifests knowledge.

 

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency (hladini). Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa."

 

The various expansions of Radha are explained here by Srila Prabhupada

 

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 4.81

 

tara madhye vraje nana bhava-rasa-bhede

krsnake karaya rasadika-lilasvade

 

Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.

 

PURPORT

 

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multiforms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

 

The plenary expansions of Krsna's personality are called vaibhava-vilasa and vaibhava-prakasa, and Radha's expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are Her vaibhava-vilasa forms, and the queens are Her vaibhava-prakasa forms. The personal associates of Radharani, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personal form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Krsna, under the supreme direction of Srimati Radharani. In the transcendental realm, enjoyment is fully relished in variety. The exuberance of transcendental mellows is increased by the association of a large number of personalities similar to Radharani, who are also known as gopis or sakhis. The variety of innumerable mistresses is a source of relish for Sri Krsna, and therefore these expansions from Srimati Radharani are necessary for enhancing the pleasure potency of Sri Krsna. Their transcendental exchanges of love are the superexcellent affairs of the pastimes in Vrndavana. By these expansions of Srimati Radharani's personal body, She helps Lord Krsna taste the rasa dance and other, similar activities. Srimati Radharani, being the central petal of the rasa-lila flower, is also known by the names found in the following verses.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Sandhini manifests all forms in the spiritual world, including Radha and Krishna, their expansions, and the jiva's forms.

Jivas are spiritual seeds.

The gopis and cowherd boys aren't jivas.

They are expansions of Radha and Balarama.

 

Hladini shakti is the cause of attaining a spiritual form manifested via sandhini shakti.

Without hladini shakti (devotional service) one cannot attain a spiritual form of sandhini shakti.

 

Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī has elaborately discussed the hlādinī potency in his Prīti-sandarbha. He says that the Vedas clearly state, "Only devotional service can lead one to the Personality of Godhead. Only devotional service can help a devotee meet the Supreme Lord face to face. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is attracted by devotional service, and as such the ultimate supremacy of Vedic knowledge rests in knowing the science of devotional service."

 

So, it is hladini shakti is what qualifies one for a spiritual form of sandhini shakti.

 

As such the gopis are manifestations of hladini shakti with forms of sandhini shakti.

Without the inner substance of hladini, one cannot get a body of sandhini shakti.

 

Hladini is the love exchanged between Krishna and his gopis.

Without that love there is no form of sandhini shakti to be had.

 

The idea that both Saddam Hussein and Rupa Manjari are both jivas is quite the outragious proposal.

 

Rupa Manajari is not jiva tattva. she is shakti-tattva.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 7.17

 

 

In connection with verses 16 and 17, Śrī Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura explains in his Anubhāṣya: "There are specific symptoms by which the internal devotees and the unalloyed or pure devotees are to be known. All unalloyed devotees are śakti-tattvas, or potencies of the Lord. Some of them are situated in conjugal love and others in filial affection, fraternity and servitude.

Jiva-tattva and shakti-tattva are not the same thing.

 

Gopis are shaktis not jivas.

[Guruvani 0]

Jivas are seeds.

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 14.3 purport,

 

 

This total material substance, the mahat-tattva, is described as Brahman in the Vedic literature (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.1.19): tasmād etad brahma nāma-rūpam annaḿ ca jāyate. The Supreme Person impregnates that Brahman with the seeds of the living entities. The twenty-four elements, beginning from earth, water, fire and air, are all material energy, and they constitute what is called mahad brahma, or the great Brahman, the material nature.

 

Aren't seeds meant to grow into plants and not reamain as seeds forever?

[Vigraha 0]

 

Well you can argue, but this is what Bhaktivinoda says as quoted above

 

 

 

Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locatice meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha Sakti. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or inbetween the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either way the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

 

 

 

You guys are not arguing with "my interpretation" you are arguing against direct unequivocal statements by the acaryas.

 

I am not arguing with "the interpretation you present" I am just writing that there is a deeper more personal understanding to what the acaryas are saying

 

The nitya baddha dreaming consciousness that enters the material dreaming creation of Maha-Vishnu as self centred dreams that can later proceed to the tatastha impersonal condition of a dreamless dream, is certainly not a seperate place but rather a conditional state of individual consciousness manifesting in a cluster called the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

 

Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Tatastha is simply a state of individual consciousness sometimes referred to as jiva tatastha or s’akti, or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, which is really a cluster of marginal living entities manifesting as their dreaming dreamless nitya-baddha consciousness. Every marginal living entity has both a perpetual nitya-siddha body and the propensity to manifest a nitya baddha consciousness due to free will. Without free will everything would be all one consciousness

 

Srila Prabhupada: "He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krishna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies". (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) .

 

This goes way deeper than many can presently comprehend. There is a paradox in trying to understand this. You are right if you say the nitya-baddha consciousness does not come from Goloka because only the nitya-siddhas are in Goloka. So what is nitya-baddha consciousness? If it does not came from Goloka where does it come from? This is hard to understand and explain in English.

I think the best way to understand this is lets compare the nitya-siddha body to a bright Sun and the nitya-baddha consciousness to darkness. In the presents of the sun there is no darkness, it simply does not exist, In the same way, in the presents or awareness of ones nitya-siddha body, there is no nitya-baddha consciousness, it simply does not exist. Also when there is darkness (nitya-baddha) it's not that there is no sun (nitya-siddha), it simply means we cannot see it.

Srila Prabhupada -'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

 

The darkness or the nitya-baddha consciousness is compared also to the tatastha condition of consciousness that is a characteristic born of darkness, such consciousness is tatastha s’akti of the jiva. In fact within that darkness also exists the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Now this place is a real manifestation in the spiritual Sky that takes up 25%, so it is not an illusion it is simply a temporary phenomenon

 

Srila Prabhupada – “...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

In this way the jiva as there nitya-baddha secondary self originates from the darkness, from tatastha however, the full potential of the marginal living entity is always in Goloka or Vaikuntha as their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

There is no contradiction with previous acaryas

[Guruvani 0]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.9.3 purport,

 

In the spiritual sky of the brahmajyoti there is no change of various kalpas or millenniums, and there are no creative activities in the Vaikuṇṭha worlds. The influence of time is conspicuous by its absence. The rays of the transcendental body of the Lord, the unlimited brahmajyoti, are undeterred by the influence of material energy.

 

As such it appears to me that the liberated jivas in the brahmajyoti of Vaikuntha cannot fall down.

Only the jivas in the marginal condition between the material and spiritual energies can fall down due to being exposed to Maya-shakti which ONLY exists within the Maha-tattva not in the spiritual world.

[shiva 0]

 

Jivas are spiritual seeds.

The gopis and cowherd boys aren't jivas.

They are expansions of Radha and Balarama.

 

Hladini shakti is the cause of attaining a spiritual form manifested via sandhini shakti.

Without hladini shakti (devotional service) one cannot attain a spiritual form of sandhini shakti.

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami has elaborately discussed the hladini potency in his Priti-sandarbha. He says that the Vedas clearly state, "Only devotional service can lead one to the Personality of Godhead. Only devotional service can help a devotee meet the Supreme Lord face to face. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is attracted by devotional service, and as such the ultimate supremacy of Vedic knowledge rests in knowing the science of devotional service."

 

So, it is hladini shakti is what qualifies one for a spiritual form of sandhini shakti.

 

As such the gopis are manifestations of hladini shakti with forms of sandhini shakti.

Without the inner substance of hladini, one cannot get a body of sandhini shakti.

 

Hladini in the love exchanged between Krishna and his gopis.

Without that love there is no form of sandhini shakti to be had.

 

The idea that both Saddam Hussein and Rupa Manjari are both jivas is quite the outragious proposal.

 

Rupa Manajari is not jiva tattva. she is shakti-tattva.

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamr?ta Adi 7.17

 

 

 

Jiva-tattva and shakti-tattva are not the same thing.

 

Gopis are shaktis not jivas.

 

Very amusing!

 

In Krsna Sandarbha Jiva Goswami says there are two types of expansions of The Supreme Lord:

 

 

 

This is confirmed in the Varaha Purana:

 

The two kinds of expansions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are : 1. svamsa (personal expansions) and 2. vibhinnamsa (separate persons). The svamsa expansions are unlimitedly powerful. Their form and personality are the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself.

 

There is not the slightest difference between the svamsa expansions and the Original Personality of Godhead. The vibhinnamsa expansions are very weak in comparison to Them.

 

What is vibhinnamsa?

 

Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya 22.8-10

 

 

svamsa-vibhinnamsa-rupe hana vistara

ananta vaikuntha-brahmande karena vihara

 

svamsa-vistara -- catur-vyuha, avatara-gana

vibhinnamsa jiva -- tanra saktite ganana

 

sei vibbhinamsa jiva - dui ta' prakara

eka - "nitya-mukta," eka - "nityasamsara"

 

Krsna expands Himself in many forms. Some of them are personal expansions, and some are separate expansions. Thus He performs pastimes in both the spiritual and the material worlds. The spiritual worlds are the Vaikuntha planets, and the material universes are the brahmandas, gigantic globes governed by Lord Brahma

 

Expansions of His personal self -- like the quadruple manifestations of Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva -- descend as incarnations from Vaikuntha to this material world. The separated expansions are the living entities (jivas). Although they are expansions of Krsna, they are counted among His different potencies

 

The living entities (jivas) are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

 

All jivas are saktis, therefore all jivas can be called sakti tattva. Sakti tattva is an expression that is used in different ways at different times, it can refer to Radha and her expansions, or it can refer to the jivas, but Radha is also Isvara tattva, so the phrase can have different meanings. As Jiva Goswami points out and as Krishnadas Kaviraj points out in the above quotes, there are only two types of entities, jiva and God.

 

From Srila Prabhupada on sakti-tattva:

 

 

But Advaita Acarya is isvara-tattva. He's not sakti-tattva. He's isvara-tattva. And we are all sakti-tattva; therefore there is difference. Sakti-saktiman. Although there is no difference abhinna, but still, sakti-tattva is superior, er, saktiman tattva is superior than sakti-tattva. (Lecture by ACBS Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1.12 Mayapur, April 5, 1975)

 

 

So jiva-bhuta, we jivas, we are all prakrti. Purusa is only Krishna. All living entities... Visnu-tattva is purusa-tattva, and we are sakti-tattva, sakti, energy, marginal energy of Krishna. So energy is prakrti. The prakrti is not purusa. (Lecture ACBS Bhagavad Gita London, July 14, 1973

[Guruvani 0]

 

Very amusing!

 

Show me anything, anywhere in shastra where it says that the gopis and cowherd boys of Goloka are jivas and I will concede and give you a hearty pat on the back.

 

Until then, I think you are missing something you havn't found yet.

 

I don't want anything short of a direct shastric statement that the gopis and cowherd boys are jivas.

Otherwise, you cannot prove your point and you will have to concede.

[Guruvani 0]

Narayana Maharaja is a well-versed scholar in Gaudiya siddhanta and he says that none of the associates of Krishna are jivas.

 

http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20040309.shtml

 

 

What is the gender of the jiva? Actually, every jiva is prakrti, feminine, in relation to Sri Krsna. Even in the spiritual world, the eternal associates of Krsna, who are not in the category of jiva, such as Nanda Baba, Subala and all His friends are feminine from the point of view of tattva, even though they seem to be male by their appearance.

[Guruvani 0]

Neither are the acharyas jiva-tattva according to Srila Sridhar Maharaja:

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/nmj_articles/sadhana-bhakti/sadhana-bhakti.html

 

 

Once when asked about the guru, Srila Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja said, "The guru is not jiva-tattva." The devotees present were a little shocked to hear this because according to their understanding at the time, the guru was not God, or Visnu-tattva; therefore, he was jiva-tattva, or a spirit soul. This is true, but

the correct understanding of the position of the guru is that he belongs to the guru-tattva category. The guru is not considered jiva-tattva and the disciple does not find any mundane qualities in his guru.

[shiva 0]

Guruvani you wrote:

 

 

Hladini shakti is the cause of attaining a spiritual form manifested via sandhini shakti.

 

In one sense that is correct because Sri Radha is hladini sakti personified and it is through her grace that devotees become liberated.

 

 

 

Without hladini shakti (devotional service) one cannot attain a spiritual form of sandhini shakti.

 

Hladini sakti is not "devotional service". Devotional service is bhakti. Hladini sakti is the bliss giving potency, Radha is the personified hladini sakti.

 

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami has elaborately discussed the hladini potency in his Priti-sandarbha. He says that the Vedas clearly state, "Only devotional service can lead one to the Personality of Godhead. Only devotional service can help a devotee meet the Supreme Lord face to face. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is attracted by devotional service, and as such the ultim

 

But hladini sakti is not cognate with devotional service.

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 4.62

 

 

anandamse hladini, sad-amse sandhini

cid-amse samvit -- yare jnana kari' mani

 

Hladini is His aspect of bliss; sandhini, of eternal existence; and samvit, of cognizance, which is also accepted as knowledge.

 

PURPORT

 

In his thesis Bhagavat-sandarbha (103), Srila Jiva Gosvami explains the potencies of the Lord as follows: The transcendental potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by which He maintains His existence is called sandhini. The transcendental potency by which He knows Himself and causes others to know Him is called samvit. The transcendental potency by which He possesses transcendental bliss and causes His devotees to have bliss is called hladini.

 

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 4.60

 

 

hladini karaya krsne anandasvadana

hladinira dvara kare bhaktera posana

 

That hladini energy gives Krsna pleasure and nourishes His devotees.

 

PURPORT

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami has elaborately discussed the hladini potency in his Priti-sandarbha. He says that the Vedas clearly state, "Only devotional service can lead one to the Personality of Godhead. Only devotional service can help a devotee meet the Supreme Lord face to face. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is attracted by devotional service, and as such the ultimate supremacy of Vedic knowledge rests in knowing the science of devotional service."

 

What is the particular attraction that makes the Supreme Lord enthusiastic to accept devotional service, and what is the nature of such service? The Vedic scriptures inform us that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Absolute Truth, is self-sufficient, and that maya, nescience, can never influence Him at all. Therefore the potency that overcomes the Supreme must be purely spiritual. Such a potency cannot be anything of the material manifestation. The bliss enjoyed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead cannot be of material composition, like the impersonalist conception of the bliss of Brahman. Devotional service is reciprocation between two, and therefore it cannot be located simply within one's self. Therefore the bliss of self-realization, brahmananda, cannot be equated with devotional service.

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead has three kinds of internal potency, namely the hladini-sakti, or pleasure potency, the sandhini-sakti, or existential potency, and the samvit-sakti, or cognitive potency. In the Visnu Purana (1.12.69) the Lord is addressed as follows: "O Lord, You are the support of everything. The three attributes hladini, sandhini and samvit exist in You as one spiritual energy. But the material modes, which cause happiness, misery and mixtures of the two, do not exist in You, for You have no material qualities."

 

Hladini is the personal manifestation of the blissfulness of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by which He enjoys pleasure. Because the pleasure potency is perpetually present in the Supreme Lord, the theory of the impersonalist that the Lord appears in the material mode of goodness cannot be accepted. The impersonalist conclusion is against the Vedic version that the Lord possesses a transcendental pleasure potency. When the pleasure potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is exhibited by His grace in the person of a devotee, that manifestation is called love of God. "Love of God" is an epithet for the pleasure potency of the Lord. Therefore devotional service reciprocated between the Lord and His devotee is an exhibition of the transcendental pleasure potency of the Lord.

 

The potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead that always enriches Him with transcendental bliss is not material, but the Sankarites have accepted it as such because they are ignorant of the identity of the Supreme Lord and His pleasure potency. Those ignorant persons cannot understand the distinction between impersonal spiritual bliss and the variegatedness of the spiritual pleasure potency. The hladini potency gives the Lord all transcendental pleasure, and the Lord bestows such a potency upon His pure devotee.

 

The part in bold is maybe what you misunderstood. The "reciprocation" between God and his pure devotee is an "exhibition" of hladini sakti. That means that the rasa between the Lord and his pure devotee, or the Krsna prema bestowed upon a jiva, is manifested by hladini sakti i.e Sri Radha.

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 4.59

 

radhika hayena krsnera pranaya-vikara

svarupa-sakti -- 'hladini' nama yanhara

 

Srimati Radhika is the transformation of Krsna's love. She is His internal energy called hladini.

 

--------------------------

 

As for your other quotes, there are only jivas and God. The residents of the spiritual world are either God or jivas. There is no 3rd category of living entity.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.10

 

sei vibhinnāḿśa jīva — dui ta' prakāra

eka — 'nitya-mukta', eka — 'nitya-saḿsāra'

 

The living entities [jīvas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

 

I imagine that by these following statements of yours you mean to claim that the jiva becomes something other then a jiva when he lives in the spiritual world:

 

 

Show me anything, anywhere in shastra where it says that the gopis and cowherd boys of Goloka are jivas and I will concede and give you a hearty pat on the back.

 

Until then, I think you are missing something you havn't found yet.

 

I don't want anything short of a direct shastric statement that the gopis and cowherd boys are jivas.

Otherwise, you cannot prove your point and you will have to concede.

 

But no matter how much you make these unusual claims you cannot back it up with anything. As already cited: jivas are always jivas. If you want to believe that jivas become something else, fine with me.

 

You quoted Narayana Maharaja

 

 

What is the gender of the jiva? Actually, every jiva is prakrti, feminine, in relation to Sri Krsna. Even in the spiritual world, the eternal associates of Krsna, who are not in the category of jiva, such as Nanda Baba, Subala and all His friends are feminine from the point of view of tattva, even though they seem to be male by their appearance.

 

The jiva is not by nature feminine in terms of gender. Gender is sexual indentity. But he is otherwise correct that in terms of tattva, saktiman or purusa is masculine, and sakti or prakriti is feminine, although these are metaphorical usages of these words. What they mean is that saktiman is aggresive or active and sakti is passive or acted upon. Saktiman is masculine in that sense and sakti is feminine in that sense.

 

You also quoted Sridhara Maharaja

 

 

Once when asked about the guru, Srila Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja said, "The guru is not jiva-tattva." The devotees present were a little shocked to hear this because according to their understanding at the time, the guru was not God, or Visnu-tattva; therefore, he was jiva-tattva, or a spirit soul. This is true, but the correct understanding of the position of the guru is that he belongs to the guru-tattva category. The guru is not considered jiva-tattva and the disciple does not find any mundane qualities in his guru.

 

That is a metaphor. The guru is guru-tattva to his disciples but not to his equals. The jiva is always a jiva. Since the highest level guru is a transparent-via-medium of the lord and is a liberated soul free from maya, therefore we are told to see the guru as God, but he doesn't become God. Guru Tattva doesn't mean he stops being a jiva, that is pure concoction.

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 1.46

 

 

acaryam mam vijaniyan

navamanyeta karhicit

na martya-buddhyasuyeta

sarva-deva-mayo guruh

 

"One should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods."

 

PURPORT

 

This is a verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27) spoken by Lord Krishna when He was questioned by Uddhava regarding the four social and spiritual orders of society. The Lord was specifically instructing how a brahmacari should behave under the care of a spiritual master. A spiritual master is not an enjoyer of facilities offered by his disciples. He is like a parent. Without the attentive service of his parents, a child cannot grow to manhood; similarly, without the care of the spiritual master one cannot rise to the plane of transcendental service.

 

The spiritual master is also called acarya, or a transcendental professor of spiritual science. The Manu-samhita (2.140) explains the duties of an acarya, describing that a bona fide spiritual master accepts charge of disciples, teaches them the Vedic knowledge with all its intricacies, and gives them their second birth. The ceremony performed to initiate a disciple into the study of spiritual science is called upaniti, or the function that brings one nearer to the spiritual master. One who cannot be brought nearer to a spiritual master cannot have a sacred thread, and thus he is indicated to be a sudra. The sacred thread on the body of a brahmana, kshatriya or vaisya is a symbol of initiation by the spiritual master; it is worth nothing if worn merely to boast of high parentage. The duty of the spiritual master is to initiate a disciple with the sacred thread ceremony, and after this samskara, or purificatory process, the spiritual master actually begins to teach the disciple about the Vedas. A person born a sudra is not barred from such spiritual initiation, provided he is approved by the spiritual master, who is duly authorized to award a disciple the right to be a brahmana if he finds him perfectly qualified. In the Vayu Purana an acarya is defined as one who knows the import of all Vedic literature, explains the purpose of the Vedas, abides by their rules and regulations, and teaches his disciples to act in the same way.

 

Only out of His immense compassion does the Personality of Godhead reveal Himself as the spiritual master. Therefore in the dealings of an acarya there are no activities but those of transcendental loving service to the Lord. He is the Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead. It is worthwhile to take shelter of such a steady devotee, who is called asraya-vigraha, or the manifestation or form of the Lord of whom one must take shelter.

 

If one poses himself as an acarya but does not have an attitude of servitorship to the Lord, he must be considered an offender, and this offensive attitude disqualifies him from being an acarya. The bona fide spiritual master always engages in unalloyed devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By this test he is known to be a direct manifestation of the Lord and a genuine representative of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Such a spiritual master is known as acaryadeva. Influenced by an envious temperament and dissatisfied because of an attitude of sense gratification, mundaners criticize a real acarya. In fact, however, a bona fide acarya is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead, and therefore to envy such an acarya is to envy the Personality of Godhead Himself. This will produce an effect subversive of transcendental realization.

 

As mentioned previously, a disciple should always respect the spiritual master as a manifestation of Sri Krishna, but at the same time one should always remember that a spiritual master is never authorized to imitate the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. False spiritual masters pose themselves as identical with Sri Krishna in every respect to exploit the sentiments of their disciples, but such impersonalists can only mislead their disciples, for their ultimate aim is to become one with the Lord. This is against the principles of the devotional cult.

 

The real Vedic philosophy is acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, which establishes everything to be simultaneously one with and different from the Personality of Godhead. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami confirms that this is the real position of a bona fide spiritual master and says that one should always think of the spiritual master in terms of his intimate relationship with Mukunda (Sri Krishna). Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his Bhakti-sandarbha (213), has clearly explained that a pure devotee's observation of the spiritual master and Lord Siva as being one with the Personality of Godhead exists in terms of their being very dear to the Lord, not identical with Him in all respects. Following in the footsteps of Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami and Srila Jiva Gosvami, later acaryas like Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura have confirmed the same truths. In his prayers to the spiritual master, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord. Gaudiya Vaishnavas therefore worship Srila Gurudeva (the spiritual master) in the light of his being the servitor of the Personality of Godhead. In all the ancient literatures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and other unalloyed Vaishnavas, the spiritual master is always considered either one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu.

[shiva 0]

 

Show me anything, anywhere in shastra where it says that the gopis and cowherd boys of Goloka are jivas and I will concede and give you a hearty pat on the back.

 

Until then, I think you are missing something you havn't found yet.

 

I don't want anything short of a direct shastric statement that the gopis and cowherd boys are jivas.

Otherwise, you cannot prove your point and you will have to concede.

 

Not all gopis are jivas, many are plenary expansions of Sri Radha, they are Radha in different forms.

 

From Jaiva Dharma...again

 

 

No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.

 

Sri Krsna, being established in each of His saktis, manifests His svarupa according to the nature of that sakti. When He is situated in the cit-svarupa, He manifests His svarupa as Sri Krsna and also as Narayana, the Lord of Paravyoma; when He is situated in the jiva-sakti, He manifests His svarupa as His vilasa-murti of Vraja, Baladeva; and being established in the maya-sakti, He manifests the three Visnu forms: Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. In His Krsna form in Vraja, He manifests all the spiritual affairs to the superlative degree. In His Baladeva svarupa as sesa-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas, eternally liberated associates, who render eight types of service to Krsna sesitattva-svarupa, the origin of sesa-tattva. Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarsana in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of sesi-rupa Narayana. Maha-Visnu, who is an avatara of Sankarsana, situates Himself in the jiva-sakti, and in His Paramatma svarupa, He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains. The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by maya are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.

And again...

 

 

Two kinds of jivas are free from maya’s control: 1) nitya-mukta (the jivas who were never under maya’s control), and 2) baddha-mukta (those who were once under maya’s control, but are now free). The nitya-mukta-jivas are divided again into two categories: 1) aisvaryagata (those who are attracted by Bhagavan’s feature of opulence and majesty), and 2) madhurya-gata (those who are attracted by His feature of sweetness). Those jivas who are attracted by Krsna’s aisvarya are personal associates of Sri Narayana, the Master of Vaikuntha. They are particles of spiritual effulgence emanating from Sri Mula-Sankarsana, who resides in Vaikuntha. Those who are attracted by Bhagavan’s madhurya are personal associates of Sri Krsna, the Master of Goloka Vrndavana. They are particles of spiritual effulgence manifesting from Sri Baladeva, who resides in Goloka Vrndavana. There are three kinds of baddha-mukta-jivas: 1) aisvarya-gata (those who are attracted to Bhagavan’s features of opulence and majesty), 2) madhurya-gata (those who are attracted to Bhagavan’s feature of sweetness) and 3) brahma-jyoti-gata (those who are attracted to Bhagavan’s impersonal effulgence). Those who are attracted to His opulence during their period of regulated service become eternal associates of Sri Narayana, the master of the spiritual sky, and they achieve salokya-mukti (the opulence of residing on His planet). Jivas who are attracted to Sri Krsna’s sweetness during their period of sadhana attain direct service to Him when they are liberated in the eternal abodes of Vrndavana and other similar abodes. Jivas who attempt to merge into the impersonal effulgence during their period of sadhana attain sayujya-mukti when they are liberated. They merge into His effulgence, and are thus completely destroyed in the form of brahma-sayujya.

 

And again...

 

 

Vrajanatha: Will you please explain who are the nitya-siddha gopis and who are the sadhana-siddha gopis?

 

Babaji: Srimati Radharani is Sri Krsna’s svarupa-sakti, and the eight principal sakhis are Her first kaya-vyuha (bodily expansions). The other sakhis follow behind as Her further kaya-vyuha. All these sakhis are nitya-siddha; they are svarupa-sakti-tattva, not jiva-tattva. The general sakhis of Vraja – who attained perfection by performing sadhana – follow Srimati Radharani’s eternal associates (parikara), and they are known as sadhana-siddha jivas. Having been imbued with the potency of hladini-sakti, they attained salokya (residence in vraja-aprakrta-lila) with the nityasiddha sakhis of Vraja. Jivas who attain perfection by the path of raganuga-sadhana in srngara-rasa are included amongst the sadhana-siddha sakhis.

 

As far as cowherd boys, I have never seen anything which states that there are kaya-vyuha expansions of Krishna other then Balarama in Vraja lila. As far as Krishna lila outside of Vraja I can't think of anywhere where it is mentioned that any men other then Balarama are kaya-vyuha expansions of Krishna. Maybe there are, but either they are not mentioned anywhere or they are mentioned and I can't remember.

[suchandra 1]

 

 

 

But hladini sakti is not cognate with devotional service.

 

This could be true if we examine from grammatical point of view by looking a the verbal roots. But since the essence of hladini sakti is love of God, prema, things start to once again merge into getting simultaneously one and different. Krishna becomes attached and controlled by hladini sakti - something what can be also said about devotional service. To say hladini sakti is not cognate with devotional service is rather quite daring.

 

"Prema-bhakti is so powerful that it attracts and controls even the all-attractive Supreme Controller, Sri Krsna. We are controlled by attachments: we become attached to that which gives us pleasure. Only self-satisfied people can remain detached and independent. The Lord is self-satisfied (atmarama), but is attracted to His own internal pleasure potency (hladini-sakti). Thus He becomes attached to and controlled by hladini-sakti.

 

The essence of hladini-sakti is love of Godhead (prema). Therefore, one who has prema can attract and control Krsna.

 

No other process of self-realization has this potency, as confirmed by Lord Krsna’s statement to Uddhava (see NOD, p. 16)."

[Guruvani 0]

I find it quite interesting that Srila Prabhupada never once quoted Jaiva Dharma in any of his books or instructions.

 

The Jaiva Dharma of Bhaktivinoda was once referred to by Srila Prabhupada as a novel.

 

I don't have the quote off hand, but I do remember somewhere hearing that Srila Prabhupada said that about Jaiva Dharma.

 

Anyway, Jaiva Dharma is only accepted as authoritative by the Saraswata Gaudiyas or a couple of followers of Lalita Prasada.

 

Personally, I think that Sri Caitanya Caritamrita is the Bible of the Gaudiyas.

Jaiva Dharma is a Vaishnava novel that is not based directly on the kadachas of Svarupa Damodar or Murari Gupta but is a second rendering by Bhaktivinoda in the form of a novel.

 

You can't really authoritatively debate or establish Gaudiya siddhanta on the strength of Jaiva Dharma or the works of Bhaktivinoda outside the Sarasawata Gaudiya parivar. There are other authentic Gaudiya parivars outside the Saraswata parivar that do not accept the works of Bhaktivinoda as classic Gaudiya literature like the works of the six Goswamis of Vrindavan or their disciples.

 

Personally, I find in the works of Bhaktivinoda some concepts and ideas that seem to conflict with the classic Gaudiya conclusions.

 

Bhaktivinoda seems to be somewhat the origin of the concepts that some ISKCON myths are based on.

I guess he had his reasons for presenting his version in the form that he did, but personally I get put off when acharyas and teachers seem to contradict shastric siddhanta and even themselves on occasions.

 

The idea that conditioned jivas already have a spiritual form in Goloka appears to have possibly been instigated by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

 

For me, if someone says that nitya-siddhas can fall down into maya and become conditioned souls, then I immediatly get red flags and refuse to acknowledge that.

 

In the classic writings of the Goswamis everything seems to be consistent.

With the advent of Bhaktivinoda there seems to be some sort of idea to have it both ways.

That mode of presentation had it's full bloom in ISKCON and the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I just seem to be somehow digressing from the Saraswata Gaudiya camp.

 

I am a simple person.

I like my siddhanta straight forward and unambiguous.

I find that consistency more in Srila Sridhar Maharaja and even Narayana Maharaja than I do in the books of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON.

 

I understand Srila Prabhupada's dilemma and his perplexity that he confessed to.

However, I almost feel like a victim of that perplexity and caught in the middle of a effort to reach out to such a broad spectrum of people that it becomes almost impossible for either party to find absolute resolution to their search for answers.

 

Ideas that I gather from some parts of the books or Srila Prabhupada are in other places contradicted and reversed.

 

Maybe it is just me, but the books of Srila Prabhupada are appearing more and more all the time to be full of contradictions and confusing statements that seem to be saying two different things at once.

 

If it were not so, then why has ISKCON and the movement of Srila Prabhupada divided into a hundred different factions.

 

Why and how are so many devotees coming up with different opposing arguments and splintering the movement on the basis of the teachings and books of Srila Prabhupada?

 

Why couldn't it have been so plain and straight forward that there could be no possibility of multiple conclusions based on the same teachings of ONE acharya?

 

I am growing weary of the ISKCON enigma.

It doesn't really satisfy me anymore.

 

I feel like I have to move on to a space where I don't have to be a part of a house divided against itself.

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

Hladini sakti is not "devotional service". .

 

 

I don't agree and don't think Srila Prabhupada would either.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.60 purport,

 

 

"Love of God" is an epithet for the pleasure potency of the Lord. Therefore devotional service reciprocated between the Lord and His devotee is an exhibition of the transcendental pleasure potency of the Lord.

 

Hlādinī is the personal manifestation of the blissfulness of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by which He enjoys pleasure. Because the pleasure potency is perpetually present in the Supreme Lord, the theory of the impersonalist that the Lord appears in the material mode of goodness cannot be accepted. The impersonalist conclusion is against the Vedic version that the Lord possesses a transcendental pleasure potency. When the pleasure potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is exhibited by His grace in the person of a devotee, that manifestation is called love of God. "Love of God" is an epithet for the pleasure potency of the Lord. Therefore devotional service reciprocated between the Lord and His devotee is an exhibition of the transcendental pleasure potency of the Lord.

 

Devotional service is an EXHIBITION of hladini shakti according to Srila Prabhupada and that is the point I was trying to make.

[Guruvani 0]

 

As far as cowherd boys, I have never seen anything which states that there are kaya-vyuha expansions of Krishna other then Balarama in Vraja lila. As far as Krishna lila outside of Vraja I can't think of anywhere where it is mentioned that any men other then Balarama are kaya-vyuha expansions of Krishna. Maybe there are, but either they are not mentioned anywhere or they are mentioned and I can't remember.

 

These verses and purports here seems to say that they are.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.81

 

svayaḿ-rūpa kṛṣṇera kāya-vyūha — tāńra sama

bhakta sahite haya tāńhāra āvaraṇa

 

SYNONYMS

svayam-rūpa — His own original form (two-handed Kṛṣṇa); kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; kāya-vyūha — personal expansions; tāńra — with Him; sama — equal; bhakta — the devotees; sahite — associated with; haya — are; tāńhāra — His; āvaraṇa — covering.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The personal associates of the primeval Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, are His devotees, who are identical with Him. He is complete with His entourage of devotees.

 

 

PURPORT

Śrī Kṛṣṇa and His various personal expansions are nondifferent in potential power. These expansions are associated with further, secondary expansions, or servitor expansions, who are called devotees.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.79

 

ākāra svabhāva-bhede vraja-devī-gaṇa

kāya-vyūha-rūpa tāńra rasera kāraṇa

 

SYNONYMS

ākāra — of features; svabhāva — of natures; bhede — with differences; vraja-devī-gaṇa — the gopīs; kāya — of Her body; vyūha — of expansions; rūpa — having the form; tāńra — of Her; rasera — of mellows; kāraṇa — instruments.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The Vraja-devīs have diverse bodily features. They are Her expansions and are the instruments for expanding rasa.

 

As such, if a jiva evolves to one of those positions, I don't see how such devotees can be classified as jivas in the same category as the marginal entities manifested out of the glance of Maha-Vishnu impregnating spiritual seeds into prakriti.

 

The seed grows into a plant.

Seeds were meant to grow and produce a plant and not remain as seeds forever.

 

The jiva is a spiritual seed.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.65

 

dūra haite puruṣa kare māyāte avadhāna

jīva-rūpa vīrya tāte karena ādhāna

 

SYNONYMS

dūra haite — from a distance; puruṣa — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; kare — does; māyāte — unto the material energy; avadhāna — glancing over; jīva-rūpa — the living entities; vīrya — seed; tāte — in her; karena — does; ādhāna — impregnation.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The first puruṣa casts His glance at māyā from a distance, and thus He impregnates her with the seed of life in the form of the living entities.

 

[Guruvani 0]

In this verse the term "jiva" is translated by Srila Prabhupada as "fallen living entity".

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.22

 

seita govinda sākṣāc caitanya gosāñi

jīva nistārite aiche dayālu āra nāi

 

SYNONYMS

seita — that; govinda — Govinda; sākṣāt — personally; caitanya — Lord Caitanya; gosāñi — Gosāñi; jīva — the fallen living entities; nistārite — to deliver; aiche — such; dayālu — a merciful Lord; āra — another; nāi — there is not.

 

 

TRANSLATION

That Govinda personally appears as Caitanya Gosāñi. No other Lord is as merciful in delivering the fallen souls.

 

 

So, as far as I am concerned the term jiva specifically refers to the marginal jivas that have fallen from the platform of pure consciousness as a spirit spark in the brahmajyoti.

 

I don't consider that the devotees of Krishna in Goloka or the devotees of Narayana in Vaikuntha are "jivas" (fallen souls).

 

Maybe there are contradictory references in other places in the books of Bhaktivinoda or even Srila Prabhupada, but since there seems to be two different ideas being promoted at the same time I have chosen one of them as the idea that I personally understand best.

[shiva 0]

 

In this verse the term "jiva" is translated by Srila Prabhupada as "fallen living entity".

 

 

 

So, as far as I am concerned the term jiva specifically refers to the marginal jivas that have fallen from the platform of pure consciousness as a spirit spark in the brahmajyoti.

 

I don't consider that the devotees of Krishna in Goloka or the devotees of Narayana in Vaikuntha are "jivas" (fallen souls).

 

Maybe there are contradictory references in other places in the books of Bhaktivinoda or even Srila Prabhupada, but since there seems to be two different ideas being promoted at the same time I have chosen one of them as the idea that I personally understand best.

 

 

You forgot Jiva Goswami, Bhaktisiddhanta, etc. There are no contradictory statements other then the ones coming from you. The quote you reference is translated by Prabhupada as fallen living entities because that is the context of the verse i.e. you cannot save living entities who are not fallen.

 

Guruvani you quoted this verse below but completely misunderstood it even though Prabhupada makes it very clear

 

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamr?ta Adi 1.81

 

svayam´-rupa kr?s?n?era kaya-vyuha — tanra sama

bhakta sahite haya tanhara avaran?a

 

 

SYNONYMS

svayam-rupa — His own original form (two-handed Kr?s?n?a); kr?s?n?era — of Lord Kr?s?n?a; kaya-vyuha — personal expansions; tanra — with Him; sama — equal; bhakta — the devotees; sahite — associated with; haya — are; tanhara — His; avaran?a — covering.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The personal associates of the primeval Lord, Sri Kr?s?n?a, are His devotees, who are identical with Him. He is complete with His entourage of devotees.

 

 

PURPORT

Sri Kr?s?n?a and His various personal expansions are nondifferent in potential power. These expansions are associated with further, secondary expansions, or servitor expansions, who are called devotees.

 

Notice the word kaya-vyuha, in the translation Prabhupada says "personal associates" who are "identical to him", in the purport he makes it clear what kaya-vyuha means: "personal expansions", they "are nondifferent in potential power" with Krishna. We are not personal or kaya-vyuha expansions, we are not nondifferent in potential power with Krishna, we are not "identical" to Krishna. I find it really weird that you would claim that this verse and Prabhupada's purport is talking about anything but Krishna and his personal expansions. If you think that we will ever be identical to Krishna and nondifferent in potential power with Krishna, well, what can I say.

 

You then quote this verse to back up your claim

 

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamr?ta Adi 4.79

 

akara svabhava-bhede vraja-devi-gan?a

kaya-vyuha-rupa tanra rasera karan?a

 

 

SYNONYMS

akara — of features; svabhava — of natures; bhede — with differences; vraja-devi-gan?a — the gopis; kaya — of Her body; vyuha — of expansions; rupa — having the form; tanra — of Her; rasera — of mellows; karan?a — instruments.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The Vraja-devis have diverse bodily features. They are Her expansions and are the instruments for expanding rasa.

 

A couple verses later Srila Prabhupada explains in the purport what that verse means

 

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 4.81

 

tara madhye vraje nana bhava-rasa-bhede

 

krsnake karaya rasadika-lilasvade

 

SYNONYMS

 

tara madhye -- among them; vraje -- in Vraja; nana -- various; bhava -- of moods; rasa -- and of mellows; bhede -- by differences; krsnake -- Lord Krsna; karaya -- cause to do; rasa-adika -- beginning with the rasa dance; lila -- of the pastimes; asvade -- tasting.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.

 

PURPORT

 

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multiforms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

 

The plenary expansions of Krsna's personality are called vaibhava-vilasa and vaibhava-prakasa, and Radha's expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are Her vaibhava-vilasa forms, and the queens are Her vaibhava-prakasa forms. The personal associates of Radharani, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personal form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Krsna, under the supreme direction of Srimati Radharani. In the transcendental realm, enjoyment is fully relished in variety. The exuberance of transcendental mellows is increased by the association of a large number of personalities similar to Radharani, who are also known as gopis or sakhis. The variety of innumerable mistresses is a source of relish for Sri Krsna, and therefore these expansions from Srimati Radharani are necessary for enhancing the pleasure potency of Sri Krsna. Their transcendental exchanges of love are the superexcellent affairs of the pastimes in Vrndavana. By these expansions of Srimati Radharani's personal body, She helps Lord Krsna taste the rasa dance and other, similar activities. Srimati Radharani, being the central petal of the rasa-lila flower, is also known by the names found in the following verses.

 

Those verses are talking about the personal expansions of Radha, not ourselves. Prabhupada says

 

"All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself."

 

"Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions"

 

We cannot become them, they are all "womanly forms of Krishna", "plenary portions", "corresponding to Krishna's plenary expansions of Visnu forms"

 

"Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multiforms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions."

 

They are all Radha just like Krishna's incarnations like the purusas are all Krishna.

 

I think we have reached an impasse on this topic, so I am finished with it.

[suchandra 1]

 

Guruvani and I agree on the large picture, we are just debating more esoteric aspects of the philosophy.

 

 

:pray::deal::idea:

[shiva 0]

 

This could be true if we examine from grammatical point of view by looking a the verbal roots. But since the essence of hladini sakti is love of God, prema, things start to once again merge into getting simultaneously one and different. Krishna becomes attached and controlled by hladini sakti - something what can be also said about devotional service. To say hladini sakti is not cognate with devotional service is rather quite daring.

 

"Prema-bhakti is so powerful that it attracts and controls even the all-attractive Supreme Controller, Sri Krsna. We are controlled by attachments: we become attached to that which gives us pleasure. Only self-satisfied people can remain detached and independent. The Lord is self-satisfied (atmarama), but is attracted to His own internal pleasure potency (hladini-sakti). Thus He becomes attached to and controlled by hladini-sakti.

 

The essence of hladini-sakti is love of Godhead (prema). Therefore, one who has prema can attract and control Krsna.

 

No other process of self-realization has this potency, as confirmed by Lord Krsna’s statement to Uddhava (see NOD, p. 16)."

 

The question is not whether or not hladini sakti is involved in devotional service, I said that hladini sakti is not cognate or analoguous with devotional service. You don't say "Hey prabhu, I'm going to the temple to do some hladini sakti" or "I just want to engage in hladini sakti so that I can please Krishna". Guruvani translated hladini sakti as devotional service. That is incorrect. Hladini sakti is involved with devotional service, but so are we, we are not devotional service and neither is hladini sakti.

 

From Srila Prabhupada

 

 

Hlādinī is the personal manifestation of the blissfulness of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by which He enjoys pleasure. Because the pleasure potency is perpetually present in the Supreme Lord, the theory of the impersonalist that the Lord appears in the material mode of goodness cannot be accepted. The impersonalist conclusion is against the Vedic version that the Lord possesses a transcendental pleasure potency. When the pleasure potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is exhibited by His grace in the person of a devotee, that manifestation is called love of God. "Love of God" is an epithet for the pleasure potency of the Lord. Therefore devotional service reciprocated between the Lord and His devotee is an exhibition of the transcendental pleasure potency of the Lord.

 

Devotional service isn't hladini sakti, it is an exhibition of hladini sakti. One is the cause and the other is the effect. When the pleasure potency (Sri Radha) bestows pure love of God or Krishna Prema on a devotee, that reciprocation between the devotee and God is a manifestation of Sri Radha or the hladini sakti. But if some person gives some money to a a guru or washes some pots for the temple that is devotional service, you don't say that person is doing hladini sakti. He may derive some bliss from that service, he may have been directed to do that service ultimately by Sri Radha, but that service is not Sri Radha, it is not hladini sakti, it is bhakti, Sri Radha is Hladini Sakti.

[shiva 0]

 

:pray::deal::idea:

 

 

I spoke to soon

[shiva 0]

I have one more thing to say.

 

Previously Guruvani had posted this quote from Narayana Maharaja

 

 

What is the gender of the jiva? Actually, every jiva is prakrti, feminine, in relation to Sri Krsna. Even in the spiritual world, the eternal associates of Krsna, who are not in the category of jiva, such as Nanda Baba, Subala and all His friends are feminine from the point of view of tattva, even though they seem to be male by their appearance.

 

A little later I posted this

 

 

As far as cowherd boys, I have never seen anything which states that there are kaya-vyuha expansions of Krishna other then Balarama in Vraja lila. As far as Krishna lila outside of Vraja I can't think of anywhere where it is mentioned that any men other then Balarama are kaya-vyuha expansions of Krishna. Maybe there are, but either they are not mentioned anywhere or they are mentioned and I can't remember

 

It just came to me that there is one person in Krishna lila besides Balarama that I can remember being described as a personal expansion of Krishna, that is Krishna's grandson Aniruddha, the son of Pradyumna who was the son of Krishna and Rukmini. After I remembered that I wondered if Pradyumna also was a personal expansion so I looked it up in the Bhagavatam and in Krsna Book and in Jiva Goswami's Krsna Sandarbha. What I got was contradictory statements

 

This is from Krsna Book

 

 

Kama, or the Cupid demigod, who later on took his birth in the womb of Rukmini, was also named Pradyumna, but he cannot be the Pradyumna of the Visnu category. He belongs to the category of jiva-tattva, but for special power in the category of demigods, he was a part and parcel of the super prowess of Pradyumna. That is the verdict of the Gosvamis. Therefore, when Cupid was burned into ashes by the anger of Lord Siva, he merged into the body of Vasudeva, and in order to get his body again, he was begotten by Lord Krsna Himself; he was directly released from his body in the womb of Rukmini and was born as the son of Krsna, celebrated by the name Pradyumna. Because he was begotten by Lord Krsna directly, his qualities were most similar to those of Krsna.

 

I looked that up in Krsna Sandarbha, and that is pretty much what it says there, although a bit more in detail and a bit confusing, maybe due to a poor translation. Here is that section

 

 

1 Now we shall describe Pradyumna, who in His previous life as Cupid was burned to ashes by the anger of Lord Siva. This Pradyumna is described in the following verse from the Gopala-tapani Upanisad (2.40):

2 “Lord Krsna, accompanied by His three potencies, and by Balarama, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Rukmini, stays in delightful Mathura-puri.”

3 This Pradyumna, however, cannot be considered to be the same Pradyumna who is one of the four original expansions of Lord Krsna (Vasudeva, Sankarsana, Pradyumna, and Aniruddha).

This Pradyumna is simply the demigod Cupid, who is an ordinary living enitity, and not the Personality of Godhead. This is described in Srimad Bhagavatam (10.55.1):

4 “It is said that Cupid, who is directly part and parcel of Lord Vasudeva, was formerly burned to ashes by the anger of Lord Siva. In order to get his body again, he took birth as the son of Krsna.”*

5 The word ‘tu’ (but) is very significant in this verse. This word is used to specifically distinguish a certain person or thing from another or others. For example, if we say ‘but he is a brahmana’, a certain person is distinguished from others, as for example if we say ‘there may be many who although born in a brahmana family remain ignorant and uneducated, but he is a brahmana’, the word ‘but’ distinguishes the learned brahmana from others who are less qualified.

In this verse the phrase ‘kamas tu vasudevamsah’ (but that Cupid who is directly part and parcel of Lord Vasudeva) indicates that there are two Cupids, and one of them is directly part and parcel of Lord Vasudeva. If it were otherwise, and the intention of the author had been to say ‘but Cupid is directly part and parcel of Lord Vasudeva’, the order of the words (in Sanskrit) would have been ‘vasudevamsas tu kamah’.

The other Cupid (who is not directly part and parcel of Lord Vasudeva) is described in the second part of this verse. He is the material Cupid, an ordinary demigod, one of the eleven Rudras, and servant of Maharaja Indra. Burned by Lord Siva’s anger, this material Cupid lost his body and became disembodied. In order to get his body again he entered the body of Lord Pradyumna, the original Cupid, who is directly part and parcel of Lord Vasudeva. The material Cupid was then born again from the body of Lord Pradyumna.

Interpreted in this way, this verse from Srimad Bhagavatam may be translated in the following words:

“It is said that Cupid was formerly burned to ashes by the anger of Lord Siva. In order to get his body again he entered the body of Lord Pradyumna, the original Cupid, who is a direct expansion of Lord Vasudeva.”

Another explanation of this verse may be given by dividing the first two lines in the following way:

By accepting the word ‘adagdhah’ to replace ‘dagdhah’, we may translate this verse in this way:

“The original Cupid, who is directly part and parcel of Lord Vasudeva (and different from the material Cupid), was not burned to ashes by the anger of Lord Siva. This original Cupid entered the body of Lord Vasudeva to appear with Him as He manifested His transcendental pastimes within the material world.”

In this way we have described the original cupid, Lord Pradyumna, who, because He is directly the expansion of Lord Vasudeva, must be different from the material Cupid, who was burned to ashes by the anger of Lord Siva.

Anuccheda 88

1 This distinction between the material and spiritual Cupids is confirmed by the following verse (Srimad Bhagavatam 10.55.2) which describes the appearance of the material Cupid:

“Cupid was born as the son of Lord Krsna in the womb of Rukmini and he became celebrated by the name Pradyumna. Because he was begotten by Lord Krsna directly, his qualities were most similar to those of Krsna.”*

2 This verse describes the visnu-tattva Lord Pradyumna, the direct expansion of Lord Krsna, who took birth in the womb of Rukmini. That this verse describes the visnu-tattva Pradyumna, and not the material demigod Cupid may be inferred by the phrase ‘sarvato navamah pituh’ (His qualities were most similar to those of His father Krsna).

The material Cupid, who appeared in Lord Krsna’s pastimes, is an empowered incarnation of Lord Pradyumna. Cupid was granted the powers of Lord Pradyumna, just as Arjuna was granted the powers of Indra by his father, who was Indra himself (this story is related in the Mahabharata).

Because this person was actually the material demigod Cupid, who was granted extraordinary powers by Lord Pradyumna, Narada informed Rati-devi (Cupid’s wife) that her husband had appeared in Lord Krsna’s pastimes. For this reason, when Rati- devi was reunited with Pradyumna, there was no fault on her part, for she simply regained the association of her husband.

Someone may raise the question how it was possible for Rati-devi, a material demigoddess to associate with an empowered incarnation of Lord Pradyumna. The answer to this question is that by contact with the empowered incarnation of Pradyumna she became purified and qualified to associate with him, just as ordinary metals become turned to gold by contact with a touchstone.

The actual visnu-tattva Lord Pradyumna, however, is not associated with Rati-devi who is the potency of the material Cupid. Lord Pradyumna’s potency is Lord Aniruddha. This is confirmed in the verse from Gopala-tapani Upanisad quoted in Anuccheda 87, text 2.

 

 

Then I checked the Bhagavatam and Prabhupada contradicts what he said in Krsna book, maybe it was bad editing, or not, this is what Prabhupada says in the Bhagavatam

 

 

This Kāmadeva, who appears as Kṛṣṇa's son named Pradyumna, is viṣṇu-tattva. How this is so is explained by Madhvācārya, who quotes from the Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa: kāmadeva-sthitaḿ viṣṇum upāste. Although this Kāmadeva is viṣṇu-tattva, His body is not spiritual but material. Lord Viṣṇu as Pradyumna or Kāmadeva accepts a material body, but He still acts spiritually. It does not make any difference whether He accepts a spiritual or a material body; He can act spiritually in any condition of existence. Māyāvādī philosophers regard even Lord Kṛṣṇa's body as material, but their opinions cannot impede the spiritual activity of the Lord.

 

So these seem to be contradictory accounts.

 

So back to the quote from Narayana Maharaja

 

 

 

What is the gender of the jiva? Actually, every jiva is prakrti, feminine, in relation to Sri Krsna. Even in the spiritual world, the eternal associates of Krsna, who are not in the category of jiva, such as Nanda Baba, Subala and all His friends are feminine from the point of view of tattva, even though they seem to be male by their appearance.

 

Here he says that Nanda, Subal, and his friends are not jivas. I have never seen any direct statements which confirm that. There are many direct statements about the gopis, the queens of Dwaraka, and the goddesses of fortune not being jivas, but rather as personal expansions of Radha. There are also many statements about gopis who are jivas, who became gopis, as this from Bhaktivinoda

 

 

Srimati Radharani is Sri Krsna’s svarupa-sakti, and the eight principal sakhis are Her first kaya-vyuha (bodily expansions). The other sakhis follow behind as Her further kaya-vyuha. All these sakhis are nitya-siddha; they are svarupa-sakti-tattva, not jiva-tattva. The general sakhis of Vraja – who attained perfection by performing sadhana – follow Srimati Radharani’s eternal associates (parikara), and they are known as sadhana-siddha jivas. Having been imbued with the potency of hladini-sakti, they attained salokya (residence in vraja-aprakrta-lila) with the nityasiddha sakhis of Vraja. Jivas who attain perfection by the path of raganuga-sadhana in srngara-rasa are included amongst the sadhana-siddha sakhis.

 

And no Guruvani, Bhaktivinoda didn't make that up, it's in Jiva Goswami's Krsna Sandarbha also.

 

But the interesting thing is that I have never seen a direct statement about whether any of the gopas are not jivas but rather personal expansions of Krishna. There are many statements which I have seen where the gopas are described as very similar to Krishna in almost every sense, but none which say that some gopas are not jivas.

 

Guruvani quoted this to prove that the gopas are not jivas

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.81

 

svayaḿ-rūpa kṛṣṇera kāya-vyūha — tāńra sama

bhakta sahite haya tāńhāra āvaraṇa

 

 

SYNONYMS

svayam-rūpa — His own original form (two-handed Kṛṣṇa); kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; kāya-vyūha — personal expansions; tāńra — with Him; sama — equal; bhakta — the devotees; sahite — associated with; haya — are; tāńhāra — His; āvaraṇa — covering.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The personal associates of the primeval Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, are His devotees, who are identical with Him. He is complete with His entourage of devotees.

 

 

PURPORT

Śrī Kṛṣṇa and His various personal expansions are nondifferent in potential power. These expansions are associated with further, secondary expansions, or servitor expansions, who are called devotees.

 

That verse doesn't specify gopas, it simply says there are personal associates who are personal expansions. Also that verse follows a bunch of verses which talk about Krishna expanding into numerous husbands for his queens, it talks about his expansions of Baladeva, Narayana, Vasudeva, Sankarsan, Pradyumna and Aniruddha, and then it talks about the gopis, the queens and lakshmis. But no one else, actually in the entire chapter gopas are not mentioned. These are the verses preceding the above verse

 

 

CC Adi 1.71: "It is astounding that Lord Sri Krsna, who is one without a second, expanded Himself in sixteen thousand similar forms to marry sixteen thousand queens in their respective homes."

 

CC Adi 1.72: "When Lord Krsna, surrounded by groups of cowherd girls, began the festivities of the rasa dance, the Lord of all mystic powers placed Himself between each two girls."

 

CC Adi 1.73-74: "When the cowherd girls and Krsna thus joined together, each girl thought that Krsna was dearly embracing her alone. To behold this wonderful pastime of the Lord's, the denizens of heaven and their wives, all very eager to see the dance, flew in the sky in their hundreds of airplanes. They showered flowers and beat sweetly on drums."

 

CC Adi 1.75: "If numerous forms, all equal in their features, are displayed simultaneously, such forms are called prakasa-vigrahas of the Lord."

 

CC Adi 1.76: But when the numerous forms are slightly different from one another, they are called vilasa-vigrahas.

 

CC Adi 1.77: "When the Lord displays numerous forms with different features by His inconceivable potency, such forms are called vilasa-vigrahas."

 

CC Adi 1.78: Examples of such vilasa-vigrahas are Baladeva, Narayana in Vaikuntha-dhama, and the catur-vyuha -- Vasudeva, Sankarsana, Pradyumna and Aniruddha.

 

CC Adi 1.79-80: The energies [consorts] of the Supreme Lord are of three kinds: the Laksmis in Vaikuntha, the queens in Dvaraka and the gopis in Vrndavana. The gopis are the best of all, for they have the privilege of serving Sri Krsna, the primeval Lord, the son of the King of Vraja.

 

I'm not saying that there are no gopas who are personal expansions of Krishna, but I cannot find any direct statement which states that directly. There are some statements that may be taken as indirect evidence that I have seen if you wanted to you could take as evidence of some gopas not being jivas, but none of them directly state that the way it is stated about the gopis, queens, and lakshmis.

 

So I was wondering where Narayana Maharaja came up with the information for that quote. If there are any of his followers here I would be interested to know if he has a source which directly states that some gopas are not jivas. I have seen where a devotee on Madhavanandas old forum tries too use the following statement by Bhaktivinoda to claim that some gopas are not jivas, but the statement only mentions gopis.

 

 

No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.

 

So if any of you people know Narayana Maharaja or knows someone who knows him, try and see if you can find out if he is basing his opinion on direct statements or indirect extrapolations.