We All Originated From Goloka

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

 

The wonderful Maha Vishnu who's dreams are the also the realitites of ones nitya-baddha consciousness that manifests as a sub-conscious alternative to ones perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Gloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

Garbhodakasayi Vishnu the first expansion of Maha-Vishnu

 

It is within the wonderful and terrible dreams of sleeping Maha-Vishnu, who is the Over Lord of the Maha-tattva and the provider of ethereal and biological vessels, that ones nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tattva is housed so the extended jiva-tattva consciousness can act out their non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, desires and dreams without Krishna directly.

 

Of course Krishna (technically Balarama, Krishnas' older brother) is always with them as the Paramātma (Kshirodakasayi Vishnu) and provides the jiva-tattva consciousness with eveything they desire or dream off as long as they earn it according to the karmic laws that govern the mahat-tattva.

 

[Guest guest]

If we are merely asleep in Goloka, dreaming about being in Maya, why does the soul has to leave the body in order to come back to the spiritual world?

 

Bhagavad Gita clearly says that the soul transmigrates through different species, not some phantom projection of the soul.

 

That sleeper concoction is a total joke.

[Guest guest]

Sarva gattah,

 

People like you and your fellow ISKCON/Prabhupada fanatics are best left wallowing in your illusory, mind-generated (dreamlike?) cocoon, for the rest of world Vaisnavism has no interest in your corporate institution's success or failure. I care little for your pathetic, ignorant claims to be the only genuine Gaudiya movement on the planet, since they clearly demonstrate that you remain to this day a kanistha-adhikari, even after decades of supposedly chanting Hari-nama. ISKCON is, after all, a society of kanisthas, and the kanistha mentality which pervades it is there for all to see.

 

You people have brought more shame and disrepute on Vaishnavism in the last 30 years than had been possible in the preceding entire five millenia since the beginning of Kali-yuga. Your organisation deviates markedly from the philosophy, practices and elements of etiquette that were manifested to the world and put in place by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada. Your sannyasis cannot even chant the Sannyasa mantras properly, and you folks lack the common sense and basic Sanskrit knowledge to see through the preposterous mistakes you make during the Jaya Dhvani - as in your erroneous Sri Sri Radha-Krsna Gopa Gopinath, when the correct version of course should be Sri Sri Radha-Krsna Gopa Gopi Go (meaning cows)! In other words, you do not even understand what you are glorifying, but just parrot back what you have heard!

 

As for His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's Godbrothers (who were nearly all senior to him and more trained in Gaudiya life than he was, since he left grhasta ashram relatively late in life) sitting back whilst he preached worldwide, I would suggest you think twice before making this assertion, as it could backfire on you and ISKCON. ISKCONites like to say that something should be best judged by its results, and I agree. Let us take that idea to another level - it is true that Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada accomplished an extraordinary feat as far as his preaching efforts went, and true Gaudiyas, even those who are not in his direct line, accept that he was especially empowered by Nityananda Prabhu for that purpose. My own initial contact with the transcendental mission of Mahaprabhu was though his amazing books, for which I am eternally grateful to His Divine Grace. But we are all cognizant of what happened after his departure; any serious Vaishnava, even one who are is not a member of it, would be embarrassed by ISKCON's appalling and in some instances criminal record. The sad fact is that today Srila Prabhupada's most sincere and learned disciples are no longer in ISKCON, but are instead preaching outside of it. Today's corporate, money-making ISKCON is just a shadow of the society His Divine Grace formed, and I am sure that it really saddens him where he is to see the depths of depravity that his so-called followers have plumbed, all in the name of Krsna and in his own as well.

 

Not too long ago, I came across a study which highlighted that around 60% of Gaudiya Vaishnava activities outside of India are now those of devotees from groups outside of ISKCON. In India proper, ISKCON's share has always been unsubstantial. So, whilst the institution to which you belong may have been the first one to make a big impact in the West, this is simply no longer the case, and the trend in motion is that increasingly, Vaishnavism will be propagated by non-ISKCON Sarasvata and other missions rather than ISKCON, worldwide. This is an unavoidable fact, and should provide you with some soul-searching to do, since you were the one who first jumped on the BIGGER IS BETTER bandwagon. If you want to evaluate the value of an activity by its results, by all means do so, but the long-term rather than immediate results should be the benchmark for success or lack of it.

 

Not just in Chaitanya Vaishnavism, but in all other Vedic/Vedantic sampradayas the understanding is that materially conditioned souls have never been in the spiritual world before, and to think otherwise is an offense to the Lord's eternal abode. Try checking that with a Shri Vaishnava or Tattvavadi if you want. It is precisely due to disseminating this kind of grotesque apasiddhanta and indulging in grievous vaishnava-aparadha that ISKCONites are so bereft of arguments when confronted by Madhva Vaishnavas/Tattvavadis and challenged by non-Sarasvata Gaudiyas. Thanks to senior devotees outside ISKCON such as Narayana Maharaja, Tripurari Maharaja and Narasingha Maharaja, the Krsna Consciousness movement has been successfully defended from the claims of some Tattvavadis that we are not connected to Madhvacarya's disciplic line and are not even a bona fide sampradaya, and against the accusations put forward by sahajiyas and caste gosvamis that devotees tracing their lineage to Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura do not have a proper guru-papampara. Where were all of you ISKCON folks when those grave criticisms were being levelled at our branch of Gaudiya Vaishnavism? Sleeping, or rather dreaming, I would imagine!

 

The fact is that ISKCON is no longer a movement that can benefit the world because it has deteriorated into a cult centred around a personality, and unfortunately, that personality is not the Supreme Godhead Krsna. It is the Lord Himself as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu who started our Sampradaya, and He Himself installed Srila Rupa Gosvamipada as the leader of His mission, which is why we call ourselves rupanugas, and this is the ideal of Gaudiya Vaisnavism to which all sincere and serious bhaktas should aspire. If your wish is to be a Prabhupadanuga rather than a Rupanuga, suit yourself, but that in effect renders you a fringie, in ISKCON speak.

 

At the end of the day, there is no point in debating with closed-minded individuals such as yourself, since you and your ilk hold that rationality, balance and harmony are foreign to spirituality. You take this contention to such a literal extent that you cannot see the untenability of your position - by dogmatically insisting that "everything is in Prabhupada's books", you not only turn your back on any possible future realisation of your own, but you also distance yourself from the very tradition you claim to follow. It is caritra/behaviour alone which determines whether one has acquired brahminical qualities, attributes befitting a devotee of Lord Hari, and humility ranks topmost amongst these. Which is why I feel so inspired by advanced Vaishnavas like Paramadvaiti Maharaja and Bodhayan Maharaja, since the readiness to offer respect to others and bring about harmony are ever-present in them. What a contrast as compared with those who think that it suffices to shout the loudest in order to become a transcendentalist!

 

HARI BOL!

[Guest guest]

 

 

Why is this so difficult for so many to understand the truth of what is really going on in the universal creation?

 

 

We must understand what personalism is, we must understand that <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation is personal which means we are all persons as well. <?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Just as Krishna is a perpetual bodily person, so are all His marginal emanations however, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is always master and his marginal nitya-siddha devotees are always His servant.

Prabhupada – “Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone.

Prabhupada - “Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”.

Prabhupada – “Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa”.

Prabhupada – “By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi -- perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship”.

Many Gaudiya Vaisnavas have all become polluted with Impersonalism that deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation by foolishly and hysterically claiming the soul originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious bodily form due to our nitya-jiva-baddha non-Krishna conscious dreams.

All impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha condition of marginal fallen consciousness which is the lower self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha self as already explained. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation has always been which means He is always an eternal bodily person and so are all His marginal effulgent emanations of subsidiary beings.

 

 

This understanding is the basic difference between a Personalist and an Impersonalist

 

This understanding is the basic difference between a personalist and an Impersonalist although there are far worse impersonal conditions were one denies <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> altogether and argue that from the Brahmajyoti is where we originally came from, and to the Brahmajyoti we will return.

 

 

 

What follows and I suggest the below should be read again and again to understand the true facts of creation and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul.

 

HARE <st1:place w:st="on">KRISHNA</st1:place> All glories to Srila Prabhupada the Jagat Guru .

The Material Dream that is real but temporary and exists in one corner of the Spiritual Sky and is called the mahat-tattva

No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples

Srila Prabhupada- “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada- “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupadais very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position,we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

Srila Prabhupada– “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada– “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there”.

Srila Prabhupada – “There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide”.

Srila Prabhupada"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya.

Srila Prabhupada “FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT”.

Srila Prabhupada-"But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going.

Srila Prabhupada – “Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness".

Srila Prabhupada "Just like in a dreamwe are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only".

Srila Prabhupada "Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming conditionis called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second".

Srila Prabhupada"He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

Srila Prabhupada - "So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he can go only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes BACK to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Bhativinode Thakur“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

Srila Prabhupada- “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada-“Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming statedue to our non-Krishna conscious choices”.

In this dreaming state, after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu, we forget our actual positionand thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is refering to our perpetual svarupa body),

We are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition that cannot stay in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva”.

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body. are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

This seconday (conditioned) extension of the nitya-siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada:“Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!”

Srila Prabhupada- “He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation”.

 

Wake up to yourself vikrama Ramsundar and understand the truth and stop following bogus gurus!

[Guest guest]

 

Sarva gattah,

 

People like you and your fellow ISKCON/Prabhupada fanatics are best left wallowing in your illusory, mind-generated (dreamlike?) cocoon, for the rest of world Vaisnavism has no interest in your corporate institution's success or failure. I care little for your pathetic, ignorant claims to be the only genuine Gaudiya movement on the planet, since they clearly demonstrate that you remain to this day a kanistha-adhikari, even after decades of supposedly chanting Hari-nama. ISKCON is, after all, a society of kanisthas, and the kanistha mentality which pervades it is there for all to see.

 

Sad but true...

Unless there are drastic changes in Iskcon (highly unlikely), it will be a dead branch of Lord Caitanya's tree in two generations.

[Guruvani 0]

The real impersonalist is the one who says that Krishna lets millions of his pure devotees fall down into maya and becomes worms in stool.

 

That is worse than impersonalist actually.

To accuse Krishna of that is nothing short of demonic.

[Vigraha 0]

 

 

Everyone relax and read the following wonderful pastime

How is it one can forget Goloka-Vrndavan?

 

 

 

 

The following is a pastime (Lila) of the great sage Narada-Muni that took place walking with Krishna outside the walls of Dwarka in Goloka-Vrindavan. Krishna was about to teach Narada a valuable lesson about the powerful effects of Maya (forgetfulness)

Narada Muni, a great Devotee of Lord Krishna, was once walking outside the perimeter of Dwarka (one of Krishna’s great Palaces) with the Lord. As they walked, Narada asked Krishna,

“How is it one can forget such a beautiful place as Goloka-Vrndavan? ‘How could a devotee forget Krishna and end up in the temporary material world in an ethereal (heavenly) or biological (earthly) body?”

Narada looked at Krishna in total ecstasy and bliss wondering how anyone could leave such beauty. He was confused, as he new the material universe was full of souls, who all were previously with Krishna in their only genuine eternal form that is perpetually endowed with an imperishable identity, personality and individuality, who did exactly that – forgot Krishna and their own real identity by turning their back on Him and manufacturing so many counterfeit identities, personalities and forms outside of Goloka-Vrindavan within the temporary material universe, how could this happen?

As they walked through the forest, a young girl caught Narada’s attention; she was struggling to carry two buckets of water near a well. Out of pity, Narada went over and offered his helping hand to the struggling girl; she gladly accepted his offer, as she was exhausted. Gladly and compassionate Narada Muni carried the two buckets of water and proceeded to the girls’ destination at a nearby Village.

On the way there, the simplicity and innocents of this beautiful young girl was so sweet and captivating that Narada was speechless in her association.

She broke the silence by explaining she was the daughter of the Village elder and her father was a great leader and devotee of Krishna. Narada, however was so captivated by the girl’s sweet voice, flowing long hair and colourful sari, he was not listening. He was totally dumbfounded in her presents.

When they arrived at the Village, the girl introduced her new friend to her father. He was very impressed by Narada’s qualities, and thought this man must be a great devotee of Lord Krishna.

He immediately further thought ‘what a nice husband this young man would make for my daughter’ The Village elder felt obligated to reward Narada for his service.

All the Villagers gathered around thinking Narada must be a great Sage and suggested the best reward for him was the village elder’s daughter in marriage. Narada Muni was so attached and comfortable with the girl that he accepted the offering!

The wedding day arrived and everyone in the surrounding area came. The Village Brahmin’s (priests) performed the fire yajna (purification ceremony) and many gifts were given. After the marriage Narada and his new wife settled in performing various duties.

Narada eventually became the Head Master of the Gurukula (school). In due course his wife fell pregnant with their first child. A boy was born and the Village was ecstatic, celebrating late into the night. As time went on, Narada’s happiness increased being with his family and living in the Village, he never had a worry in the world. Over the years he was bestowed another six children. He enjoyed watching them grow, becoming educated and playing sporting games with them. All his children were adorned with beautiful qualities.

Twenty years had passed, his father in-law, the Village elder, passed away suddenly due to illness; everyone was saddened and would only accept Narada as the new Village elder.

Many more years passed and he eventually gave permission to a young boy to marry his daughter. Everything was so perfect, so peaceful. Narada was totally satisfied with his wife, children, grandchildren and all the wonderful people in the Village.

Then one day an enormous storm came to the Village, pelting heavy rain with strong winds that destroyed houses.

Narada decided he must immediately evacuate the Village, but it was too late, flooding had made it impossible to escape. The storm became more intense, the water level was rising fast and raging torrents destroyed everything in its path.

Narada frantically searched for his wife, children, grandchildren and friends, He found himself trapped on a plank of wood in the raging torrents looking everywhere through the hail, wind and ragging water for his wife, but new she must have been washed away by the flood. His son in law and daughter also found a plank of wood attempting to ride out the storm however, it only got worse and they eventually lost their footing and also perished.

Then to Narada’s amazement he saw two of his young grand children high up in a tree holding on to dear life. Narada reached out to them screaming,

“Just hold on to me, give me your hand and I will save you!”

They reached out and at the same time a huge wave overpowered all of them, frantically Narada searched through the water screaming out for his grandchildren, but they also had perished. He continued calling out,

“Don’t leave me, just hold on somehow, don’t leave me!”

Then he also perished in the flood

At that exact moment, Narada felt a tap on the shoulder, he slowly opened his eyes still lamenting and wanting to be with his family. He found himself sitting against a well; again Narada yelled out in bewilderment,

“Where is my family?”

Then realized the tap on the shoulder was from Krishna standing next to him. Krishna laughed and said,

“You wanted to know how powerful Maya (forgetfulness) was, so I showed you. You have been sitting against that well for no more than a moment!”

Coming to his senses, Narada says to Krishna,

“You mean all that experience, my wife, my children, my friends, my wealth, my fame, my followers, the Village, was a dream?”

Krishna replies,

“No, it is all real but everything outside my Kingdom is impermanent, your entire experience was a lesson to show you how easy it is for a devotee in Goloka-Vrindavan, who is eternally liberated, until they choose not to be as you have just done, to be captivated by Maya (forgetfulness and illusion) and fall to a temporary body of forgetfulness birth, disease, old age short memory and death to experience the impermanent nature that exists only within My material universe outside My Eternal abode of Goloka Vrindavan/Vaikuntha.

In My Spiritual Universe, there is no death, however as soon as you chose to forget Me and help the girl, you were immediately transferred to My material universe and experienced the fleeting forgetful nature of the transitory universe, including death by drowning.

This is because you were attached to something other than loving devotional service to Me; (Krishna or God) you chose to turn your back on me just for a moment to help the young girl and became captivated by your own selfless compassion to help her, so much so you forgot Me! That moment seemed like a lifetime.

Genuine selflessness is doing everything for My pleaser and you, along with others, simply become inattentive. Many of my devotees experience this illusion like you have as Lila (pastime), so I can teach them a valuable lesson however, others who first choose turn their back on me, eventually become attracted to the flicking beauty of Maya, unfortunately they can remain in the material universe forgetting their true form, identify, personality and individuality for almost what appears to be an eternity, transmigrating through many millions of counterfeit bodies in their search for so called happiness.

Enough is never enough in the material universe.

In the material world, this is like chasing after a mirage in the desert that only appears real, but in reality is only an illusion. The impermanent universe is both real and an illusion because it is transitory.

This is what temporary ethereal (heavenly or hellish) and biological (earthly) bodies in the material universe are like, they all end in disappointment because they fade away because everything one has accumulated and worked so hard to achieve is lost and ultimately forgotten – everything just fades in time.

Conditioned souls who are trapped in the material universe experience that ‘moment of being away from my Kingdom’ as billions upon billions of life times in billions of different bodies that seem like an eternity, so much so, many foolishly come to believe the Impersonal inactive effulgent Brahmajoyti, or bright light, which is the motionless effulgence of trillions of individual jivas surrounding My body, is the starting and ending point of their existence.

All of them have forgotten their real form and relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrindavan

This is very difficult to understand without My favour because it is very complicated for you to understand the eternal stage on which all this illusion within the impermanent material universe is unfolding.

In actual fact, all of those jivas were once like you and had a personal intimate relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrindavan, they still do, but have temporally forgotten.

As in your case of sitting against the well and captivated by absent-mindedness just for a moment, the consciousness of those who choose to leave My Personal abode and their real form, identity, personality and individually have also become forgetful, leaving behind their original form, just as you did Narada, in Goloaka-Vrindavan. On leaving your true identity you then fabricate numerus counterfeit forms, identities and personalities like one does in a dream at night.

Some in this way transfer their consciousness to the material universe, as your consciousness had just experienced, to peruse their back on Me and pursue their own interests.

In actual fact there is no beginning or ending point of the jiva, this Impersonal conclusion by some lost souls, which includes many learned Vaisnavas and caste Goswamis (My devotees), have miss understood their eternal relationship with Me that is always there in Goloka-Vrindavan, even if they have forgotten.

Their idea that the soul originates from the Brahmajoyti is due to the long association they have had within many fleeting bodies within the temporary universe, being trapped within forgetfulness and sensual identity and association for so, so long, that they have forgotten their original form, identity, personality individuality and selfless devotional love in their eternal relationship with Me as you, Narada, have just done.

Even a great devotee like you should never underestimate the power of My Maya (forgetfulness and illusion) if you choose first to enter Her domain”!

( What is Maya? Maya: - forgetfulness, illusion, ‘that which is not’, a personality who controls the impermanent energy, i.e., the ethereal (heavenly and hellish) and biological (earthly) container the soul manifests, as well as the mental delusions suffered by the forgetful jiva after leaving the Kingdom of God. Maya’s duty is to make sure no one disturbs Krishna by offering the aspiring devotees wealth, riches, beauty (female or male), and knowledge of the celestial technological heavenly realms and technologically earthly realm as a test to see what one really wants.)

Human civilizations throughout the centuries have repeatedly attempted to build a permanent existence as well as prepare their present bodies with wealth and belongings to take with them into a heavenly ‘after-life’ where they believe they will live forever, why this is not possible in this temporary world will be fully explained in this thesis.

From the beginning of time, so many cultures have tried to prepare, with their inherent instinctual belief in an after life, to enter a Perpetual Kingdom of God. They unfortunately mistakenly come to believe that this transitory universe, with its heavenly rewards, is their real home (Explained later when explaining the heavenly planets within the interim creation in higher levels of the material universe existing in a non-biological sub-space dimension).

All things must pass

The attempt to achieve happiness, love and sensual pleasures in an impermanent atmosphere will, in due course, frustrates an intelligent human being because; in the end, all they have worked so hard to build up over their lifetime is all taken away. Whatever material acquisitions built up over their lifetime eventually wears out and erodes away.

Ultimately they loose everything anyway as forgetfulness, disease, old age and death over comes them. The phenomenon of death, also known as ‘forgetfulness’, is an abnormal state the jiva or individual life force is overcome by while traveling in and identifying with the outward biological human bodily garment or vehicle while contained in the temporary universe.

The attempt to build a perpetual blissful home on earth in a biological body, or in heaven in a non-biological ethereal body is not possible because everything eventually breaks down and fades away in the impermanent material universe.

Even in the heavenly planets, that are rewards for Jains, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, Jews and most branches of Hinduism, due to their performance of penance and austerity, exists only a temporary celestial manifestation within the boundaries of the material universe where one can live for thousands of years but also must pass on.

Only jivas who fall from the Brahmajoyti, having first originally previously first fallen from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavan long, long, long before they mistakenly accepted the Impersonal Brahmajoyti as their origins, have to start their active existence from the beginnings of biological life.

Only after billions of life times, do they unfortunately make their way to the Brahmajoyti. They do not know or remember how they were introduced or originally fell from Goloka-Vrindavan/Vaikuntha to the temporary universe in the first place and foolishly believe the Brahmajoyti is both the source of their existence and liberation.

Unfortunately the separation of the individual jiva from Krishna’s Personal abode has been so long a period of time they foolishly believe their origins are the Brahmajoyti. These jivas, who think they have originated from the Brahmajoyti, first manifest an ethereal body that stays with them for as long as they exist in the impermanent universe. From that ethereal body all other insubstantial and biological forms are projected.

Coming from the Brahmajoyti means these embodied jivas have to start their active existence from the most basic form of life first attained after leaving that effulgent light. From there the now embodied jiva has to go through the billions of biological bodily mapped out by evolution until the human body is again attained.

It must be made clear this extremely lengthy process is only for the jivas who have previously merged there identity, individuality, personality and form into a minute spark of individual living light and therefore have entered or merged themselves (individual spark) into the brightness of the Impersonal Brahmajoyti, have to start off at the very basis of biological life when they again re-emerge from their Impersonal slumber.

Impersonalism is a very dangerous philosophy to follow and is often referred to by devotees of Krishna as Spiritual suicide.

The Impersonal effulgence or Brahman is where unlimited other ‘inactive jivas’ exist and vibrate their form impersonally as individual living sparks of light that collectively make up what is also known as the Impersonal Nirvana. All of them who enter the Brahmajoyti, except for some rare Impersonalist yogis, have to start at scratch (entering the body of a microbe) when they eventually desire activity and fall out of that Impersonal sense of oneness.

Followers of Lord Buddha and the Jains practice sever penance and austerities attempting to free themselves from karma. Their austerity however, has the side effect of accumulating pious karma that allows them entry into the heavenly planets.

These higher dimensional supernatural worlds, known as the heavenly planets, exist in sub-space which are a insubstantial manifestation of the temporary material energy where the ethereal non-biological body, that is temporary but not material (lifeless energy), contains the eternal jiva or soul and resides separate encased in the ethereal living body apart from that lifeless sub-space-matter that the sub-space heavenly and hellish planets are made of.

In this thesis it should be made clear the words material and matter is lifeless substance or energy. In other words we do not live in a material body but rather we live in an ethereal body that further creates a biological covering. Matter and material refers to the lifeless by products left over by the embodied jivas once they vacate the biological body.

Both the jivas ethereal bodies or containments and the surrounding sub-space lifeless material energy are not generally perceived by the embodied ‘jivas projected biological containments’ that the ethereal body eventually manifests as a further extension of the ethereal body.

The biological restraint or body covers the ethereal body and resides in a dimension like our earthly planet that is called secular space which is far more gross and solid than sub-space matter however, both realities are material where as the ethereal body and its extended biological body are material vessels powered by the billions of extended jiva-tattva consciousnessess that originates from their svarupa body in Goloka-Vrndavana.

The ethereal body in material sub-space is also called the supernatural-realm; where as the biological containment in secular-space is called the natural-realm. Both the natural and the supernatural are not spiritual; they are different dimensions within the material realm.

[Vigraha 0]

 

This state of nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe) and into the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, which are real but temporary and then housed in ethereal and eventually biological bodies provided by Maha-Vishnu. These bodily suits enables the visiting jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva, jiva-prakriti, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva consciousness conditions to enter the enclosed atmosphere of the mahat-tattva or material creation, just as a space suit allows one to enter the realms of outerspace out of our earthly atmoshere.

 

[Guruvani 0]

It's obvious that the author is just trying to make a stir and yet hide his identity.

 

Any serious devotee presenting philosophical theses on Vaishnava doctrine does not do so anonymously in an attempt to mislead inexperienced people coming to Krishna consciousness.

 

All that this kind of anonymous publishing of bogus siddhanta does is push ISKCON farther and farther back into irrelevancy.

 

As if ISKCON isn't irrelevant enough, there has to be campaigns of bogus siddhanta being broadcast to seal the lid on their destiny in the dustbin of history.

 

This kind of preaching is important though, because it shows the Vaishnava community how immature and ignorant are so many devotees who are even presuming to be gurus of others.

 

The Vaishnava community and the Vaishnava congregation are not ignorant people. They know how to read the books and understand that these fall-from-goloka theorists are just politicians with an agenda to cover up decades of rot and corruption of the philosophy and the leadership of the Krishna consciousness movement.

[Guest guest]

 

 

The secondary creation (mahat-tattva or material creation) is a phenomena created by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that gives a reality to the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the nitya-siddhas lower self that is called the nitya-baddha non-Krishna conscious dream state. All dreams originate from the (perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa ) devotees in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha when they choose to ignore Krishna and sub-consciously enter Maha-Vishnus' dreams within that Maha-tattva cloud.

 

 

 

This dark mahat-tattva cloud makes Krishna complete (allowing choose amongst his marginal servants) and is also for the non-Krishna conscious dreams of His marginal nitya-siddhas devotees All their dreams are are also the dreams of Maha Vishnu.

Entering that ‘black or material temporary creation or cloud in one corner the Spiritual Sky, as ’ a secondary life force (jiva-tattva, jiva-s'akti etc) is known as the nitya baddha lower self. This sub-conscious nitya-baddha lower self dreaming condition disqualifies one from being aware of their eternal Krishna Conscious rasa body (the authentic nitya-siddha self) once one chooses to entertain non-Krishna conscious thoughts, desires and dreams that eventually take them away from Krishna and the svarupa body they serve Krishna as.

Ones nitya-siddha varupa body is the source of the nitya-baddha jiva-sakti lower consciousness or life force (The non-Krisna conscious dream state).

All the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the nitya-siddha devotee’s originate from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) In this way, occasionally Maha-Vishnu manifests this dark cloud to make Himself complete, or for His marginal expansions to express their free will or non-Krishna conscious dreams. This places their 'awareness' in one corner of the Spiritual Sky known as the mahat-tattva.

In this way Maha-Vishnu manifests the mahat-tattva cloud to accomadate the 25% of the nitya-baddha lower dreaming conscious state of the nitya-siddha svarupas, who choose to activate their nitya-baddha non-Krishna conscious sub-conscious state.

These non-Krishna conscious dreams, or the nitya-baddha consciousness therefore cannot stay in the perpetual Krsnaloka realm and is therefore expelled from Vaikuntha by Yoga Maya. They are then placed within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu in His mahat-tattva cloud. In this way they come under the influence of Maha-Maya.

This has been a mystery to even many, many great Vishnavas (devotee’s of Krishna) in the past, yet correctly understood by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

The nitya-siddhas devotee’s authentic perpetual svarupa bodily form, OR the so-called marginal sparks that are ALL constitutionally perpetual personal bodily forms (marginal vigraha nitya-siddha devotee’s) is ARE the PERSONAL effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is the Supreme Vigraha body from whence His entire marginal svarupa vigraha devotee’s are eternally with Him in svarupaform.

 

This is how the second-rate extended conscious phenomena (nitya-baddha), which radiates as a dreaming life force (jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva etc), is transferred out of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm and takes up residence within the mahat-tattva (material universes).

 

Ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts originates as a secondary consciousness or life force (nitya-baddhai) transmitted from the nitya-siddha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily self that never leaves Goloka.

 

Now that sums up this debate in a nutshell, easy to understand and very clear. Conclusion, we all originated from Vaikuntha

[Guest guest]

Will the greatly imaginative multiple personality entity who is posting his/her thesis that all jivas in the material world are only dreaming such and they are really in Vaikuntha slumbering away please provide some sastra pramana for this thesis?

 

If you really wish anyone to even consider your thesis you must show how yoiur conclusions were drawn from the sastra. That doesn't mean posting the same retread Prabhupada said statements. That means verses from sastra. Universally accepted Sruti or Smrti texts are acceptable withing Gaudiya Vaishnavism so please feel free to use either or both.

 

For Theist - yes on going revelation must be accepted - but our acharyas have shown the way. Sanatana Goswami understood who Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is - but he didn't just say so - he found evidence in the Sruti and the Smrti texts, especially Srimad Bhagavtam, that pointed toward his own personal revelation. Not everyone accepts Sanatana's commentary on those verses, but eveyone understands that he used those texts to support his own revelation.

 

Have a good look through the Bhaktivendata Veda Base and just see how many times Srila Prabhupada emphasized the point that all three MUST be aligned and support each other - Guru, Sadhu and Sastra.

 

Vedanta Sutra says that Karma is anadi - it has no beginning. It has always been. That is the real meaning of the nitya baddha jiva - the soul has always (eternally) been conditioned. When the soul is relieved of karma by the grace of Guru and Krsna that soul no longer takes birth in the material world.

 

You have to understand that there is a difference at times between siddhanta and preaching. Just like a child will be told one thing when they are young and another contradictory thing when they grow, preachers sometimes reel people in and get them started on the path with simplistic answers to complex questions. Progress in spiritual life comes from engaging in bhakti sadhana and the preacher will know just how to get people involved.

 

At any rate, there are verses from both the Sruti and the Smrti that corroborate the conclusion that the conditioned jiva in the material sphere has always been conditioned. Krsnadasa Kaviraja explains that the 'origin' of the conditioned souls is Maha Vishnu, who is an expansion of Lord Balarama. Of course, as Gaudiyas we also accept the CC as sastra and as such any quote from Krsnadasa kaviraja that could be shown to substantiate Sibil's claims would be acceptable.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

"The material universe set aside in one corner of the Spiritual Sky is also for the nitya-siddhas non-Krishna conscious dreaming condition (nitya-baddha), that temporary cloud in the vast perpetual Spiritual Sky (25% of the creation) is created by Maha-Vishnu and is known as the mahat-tattva or the cloud for the dreaming"

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: -"We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there".

 

 

 

The mahat-tattva cloud of the dreaming

 

 

 

 

 

[theist 1]

 

Will the greatly imaginative multiple personality entity who is posting his/her thesis that all jivas in the material world are only dreaming such and they are really in Vaikuntha slumbering away please provide some sastra pramana for this thesis?

 

If you really wish anyone to even consider your thesis you must show how yoiur conclusions were drawn from the sastra. That doesn't mean posting the same retread Prabhupada said statements. That means verses from sastra. Universally accepted Sruti or Smrti texts are acceptable withing Gaudiya Vaishnavism so please feel free to use either or both.

 

For Theist - yes on going revelation must be accepted - but our acharyas have shown the way. Sanatana Goswami understood who Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is - but he didn't just say so - he found evidence in the Sruti and the Smrti texts, especially Srimad Bhagavtam, that pointed toward his own personal revelation. Not everyone accepts Sanatana's commentary on those verses, but eveyone understands that he used those texts to support his own revelation.

 

Anyone can use verses from old texts to support practically any position they want. Just see how the Vaisnavas and Mayavadis differ on Vedanta Sutra or Bhagavad-gita for that matter. Obviously people will disagree om what those texts say and they will not be able to understand how anyone could see it differently.

 

 

Have a good look through the Bhaktivendata Veda Base and just see how many times Srila Prabhupada emphasized the point that all three MUST be aligned and support each other - Guru, Sadhu and Sastra.

 

Vedanta Sutra says that Karma is anadi - it has no beginning. It has always been. That is the real meaning of the nitya baddha jiva - the soul has always (eternally) been conditioned. When the soul is relieved of karma by the grace of Guru and Krsna that soul no longer takes birth in the material world.

 

So then your position must be that the soul has not originated in either the brahmajyoti or Vaikuntha since those are both non-conditioned states. You advocate a third position which I have heard is held by certain vaisnava lines.

 

I reject that view outright and remain noncommitted on the other two options.

 

 

You have to understand that there is a difference at times between siddhanta and preaching. Just like a child will be told one thing when they are young and another contradictory thing when they grow, preachers sometimes reel people in and get them started on the path with simplistic answers to complex questions. Progress in spiritual life comes from engaging in bhakti sadhana and the preacher will know just how to get people involved.

 

I also reject this outright as it is used to suggest that because people were so dull in the early days Srila Prabhupada made up a little story for his disciples like Adam and Eve (a great parable I might add). This very same debate was going on within Iskcon in the early seventies that I know of and to suggest that devotees then were being fed Santa Claus stories I find offensive.

 

 

At any rate, there are verses from both the Sruti and the Smrti that corroborate the conclusion that the conditioned jiva in the material sphere has always been conditioned. Krsnadasa Kaviraja explains that the 'origin' of the conditioned souls is Maha Vishnu, who is an expansion of Lord Balarama. Of course, as Gaudiyas we also accept the CC as sastra and as such any quote from Krsnadasa kaviraja that could be shown to substantiate Sibil's claims would be acceptable.

 

As above I reject the always conditioned idea outright. I will let others search for this quote and that and wait for the Paramatma to give me a personal revelation if He ever choses to otherwise I will remain quietly in ignorance on this issue.

 

This brings me to the major point of my last post. It comes by personal revelation and is not understandable to the conditioned intellect therefore it is not really a subject for preaching or debate. So one who receives such a revelation will not be engaging in endless arguments over it.

 

If the tone was one of philosophical discussion amongst god siblings that would be natural as it is natural for us all to wonder about or origins. But that is not the case on this thread unfortunately. Here animosity is being breed without any hope of one side changing the opinion of the other. Just high sounding quarrel that's all.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Anyone can use verses from old texts to support practically any position they want. Just see how the Vaisnavas and Mayavadis differ on Vedanta Sutra or Bhagavad-gita for that matter. Obviously people will disagree om what those texts say and they will not be able to understand how anyone could see it differently.

 

 

 

So then your position must be that the soul has not originated in either the brahmajyoti or Vaikuntha since those are both non-conditioned states. You advocate a third position which I have heard is held by certain vaisnava lines.

 

I reject that view outright and remain noncommitted on the other two options.

 

 

 

I also reject this outright as it is used to suggest that because people were so dull in the early days Srila Prabhupada made up a little story for his disciples like Adam and Eve (a great parable I might add). This very same debate was going on within Iskcon in the early seventies that I know of and to suggest that devotees then were being fed Santa Claus stories I find offensive.

 

 

 

As above I reject the always conditioned idea outright. I will let others search for this quote and that and wait for the Paramatma to give me a personal revelation if He ever choses to otherwise I will remain quietly in ignorance on this issue.

 

This brings me to the major point of my last post. It comes by personal revelation and is not understandable to the conditioned intellect therefore it is not really a subject for preaching or debate. So one who receives such a revelation will not be engaging in endless arguments over it.

 

If the tone was one of philosophical discussion amongst god siblings that would be natural as it is natural for us all to wonder about or origins. But that is not the case on this thread unfortunately. Here animosity is being breed without any hope of one side changing the opinion of the other. Just high sounding quarrel that's all.

 

I agree theist, but wat the heck, you and Vigraha are the only wise men on this thread . Anyway I found this fantastic painting

 

 

 

This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the PERISHABLE mahat-tattva that is a real phenomenon in the Spiritual Sky yet temporary.

 

 

 

 

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

 

 

The mahat-tattva is created by Maha-Vishnu

 

 

To experience the choice of self-centered non-Krishna conscious dreams and desires, the secondary nitya-baddha consciousness (jiva-bhutah, jiva-tattva, jiva-sakti etc, etc) is extended or projected out of Vaikuntha and into the mahat-tattva or material universe. Such dreaming consciousness originates from ones nitya-siddha svarupa body which is existing perpetually outside of the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

 

 

 

<O:P

 

 

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

 

 

 

 

 

In a comparable way to understand this, when ones dreams or thoughts are not <ST1:PKrishna conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition or "conditioned state" brought about by ones Krishna Conscious desires and DREAMS.

 

This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary and house in ethereal and eventually biological bodies provided by Maha-Vishnu that enables the visiting jiva-sakti consciousness in the eclosed atmosphere of the mahat-tattva or material creation.

 

 

 

In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s.

 

 

<O:PThere is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted <ST1>Kingdom of </ST1><ST1>Krishna. Krsnaloka or Vishnuloka

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To experience the choose of self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary conscious nitya-baddha consciousness (jiva-bhutah, jiva-tattva, jiva-sakti etc, etc) is extended or projected to the mahat-tattva or material universe originating from ones nitya-siddha svarupa dody outside of the mahat-tattva.

 

In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha or nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body).

As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna.

 

 

 

 

Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur away from beautiful Krishna is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

 

 

The dreaming Maha-Vishna is where ones Secondary non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha life force or jiva-s'akti) goes and becomes known as the 'conditioned state' when one chooses to leave Goloka however, ones nitya-siddha svarupa body always remains in Goloka.

 

 

 

 

Why would anyone, in fact trillions of jiva’s choose to leave Goloka?

 

 

Question - It does not make sense to me in my present stage of spiritual development, which I can understand is very primitive to being born in a meat eating Godless society, that the jiva-tattva’s are continuously falling from Goloka, I look around me and can understand that billions of embodied jiva’s have taken shelter in a material bodily from the amoebas to aquatic, plant, birds, animals, human, ghosts, demigods etc. Why would anyone, in fact trillions upon trillions of jiva’s leave <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>? From my understanding could it be possible the jiva originates from tatastha or even both, that some do fall down while others are born out of tatastha?

Answer – Krishna states in the Bhagavad-gita as it isthat the jivas have no beginning or end, so they certainly did not originate from tatastha condition because there was never a time the life force (jiva-s’akti or jiva-tattva) did not exist, nor in the future will such living consciousness cease to be as the Gita tells us. Srila Prabhupada has told us “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

The fact is only the jiva consciousness is transmitted out of Goloka and not ones foremost Spiritual nitya-siddha body. Srila Prabhupada has said “We never had any occasion when we were separated from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear– “Our separation from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada clearly emphasizes the fact– “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Question– Before you answer why so many jiva consciousnesses choose to forget their nitya-siddha body serving Krishna and come to the material creation, if there was no beginning to the jiva, why do so many caste Vaishnava Brahmana guru’s and big, big Gaudiya swamis arrogantly and persistently claim they originated from tatastha when the Gita tells us there is no origin or beginning point of life?

Answer – India is full of gurus and caste brahmanas, unfortunately many of them are Gaudiya Vaisnavas, who mostly read only speculated translations of previous Acharayas and Vedic texts with their English version of interpretation of those texts that has been subtly influence by Impersonalism over hundreds of years undermining Krishna’s Personal creation of marginal persons, claiming they believe and can prove their nonsense impersonal tatastha origins of the jiva-consciousness. We must understand what personalism is, we must understand that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation is personal which means we are all persons as well. Many Gaudiya Vaisnavas have all become polluted with Impersonalism and deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation.

We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious bodily form.

All impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha condition of marginal fallen consciousness which is the lower self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha self as already explained. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation has always been which means He is always an eternal bodily person and so are all His marginal effulgent emanations of subsidiary beings.

 

 

 

 

This understanding is the basic difference between a Personalist and an Impersonalist

 

 

 

This understanding is the basic difference between a personalist and an Impersonalist although there are far worse impersonal conditions were one denies Krishna altogether and argue that from the Brahmajyoti is where we originally came from, and to the Brahmajyoti we will return.

Regrettably their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is Impersonal instead of understanding all our origins are personal. The Impersonalists, Buddhists and Vaishnavas who believe in the impersonal origins of the jiva, cannot understand that on the top most platform of transcendental Knowledge, the entire creation steams from personalism, it is all personal, the original appearance of the jiva or atma is sat-cit-ananda-vigraha that we further call the nitya-siddha-svarupa. Ones consciousness however can fall to an Impersonal condition but they certainly do not originate fro it. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a bye product or manifestation created by Krishna, yet exhibited by HIS marginal vigraha devotees via their secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that firsts manifests in the mahat-tattva, then after many births and deaths, find liberation from that material frustrating condition in the Impersonal dormant aspect of their consciousness (that is also Krishna’s marginal force or jiva-s’akti/s) we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

In a nut shell and the simplest way possible in explaining what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and tatastha is, is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the dormant condition of the nitya-siddhas secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha consciousness that vibrates between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva in the over-all Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. The Brahmajyoti is created by the <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> via His marginal nitya-siddhas when they manifest their secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha restricted consciousness.

Firstly try to understand that tatastha and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a dormant conscious condition of the nitya-baddha lower non-Krishna conscious self (jiva-tattva or a secondary (conditioned) extension of Krishna’s marginal energy radiating ultimately from His Supreme Vigraha body), or secondary (conditioned) consciousness that primarily expanded out of their perpetual individual nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha due to choice and nothing else because Maha-Maya cannot exist in Vaikuntha. This secondary consciousness (conditioned by ones choices, thoughts, dreams and desires) is then transferred by Yoga-Maya out of Vaikuntha to the mahat-tattva cloud, then placed under the jurisdiction of Maha-Maya, the wife of the facilitator and creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu.

Many of us have possibly come and gone to that tatastha condition of our own consciousness on many, many occasions. Therefore it is clear that none of us in this room or the entire creation originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which is not possible because our tatastha conscious condition is only a transitional conscious state of the life force.

Srila Prabhupada says that the existence in the brahmajyoti, merging together with other individual jiva-tatasthas, without loss of individuality, is ultimately just another form of conditioned life or dreaming.

 

Sri Isopanisad explains that the extended secondary dreaming jiva-tattva consciousness is always appealing to Krishna to uncover their real authentic transcendental conscious identity and bodily source in Goloka and remove the veil of the restricted bodily containers in the mahat-tattva as well as the mundane Brahman tatastha consciousness or impersonal Brahmajyoti realization or ‘break away freedom from the mahat-tattva’ and reveal to them it is all (both entrapments in the mahat-tattva and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti) are both a dream and the result of an extended conscious condition caused by ones non-Krishna Conscious desires, thoughts and dreams. In this way ones secondary conscious condition trapped in mahat-tattva consciousness or tatastha consciousness does not see its full potential and true beautiful eternally youthful devotional Krishna Conscious bodily real authentic identity, which is the source of their secondary conscious existence. This is because of ones self centered desires for adoration, fame and wealth they have chosen to pursue.

 

 

Many Impersonalist yogis, Jains, Buddhists and even many Vaishnava traditions, including many Gaudiya Vishnavas, cannot understand that it is their mundane secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that exists in this material creation that was originally projected or transmitted from their perpetual rasa body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha incessant portion of the Spiritual Sky that enters the mahat-tattva and then, after billions of births, only then can manifests AS a spark of consciousness ONLY in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as confirmed by Jiva Gosvami.

 

 

Why do so many jiva’s fall from Goloka?

 

 

Now to answer your question of why so, so many trillions upon trillion of nitya-siddha-svarupa’s choose to activate their lower self or secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, that is simply answered.

It is clear in shastra that 25% of the marginal vigrahas (not as their nitya-siddha bodies) do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud simple because of choice which numbers are enormous and in the trillions and trillions as we see arond us, however it must be made clear that only 25% of nitya-siddhas choose to make that secondary conscious plunge, not as their nitya-siddha bodily form, but as the shadow of their perpetual body called the nitya baddha,as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us, most never come to the mahat-tattva creation of Lord Vishnu.

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21^st century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s marginal emanations. Yet remember it is only 1 /4 of creation ‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva, 1/4 of all marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas who consciously enter the mahat-tattva or material manifestation, but never as their perpetual vigraha bodily form.

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1> Kingdom</st1></st1:place><st1:place w:st="on"><st1> Krishna</st1> </st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

It is because of the many meanings of Sanskrit words (170 meanings to the word jiva) and the many analogies used by Vaishnava scholars, (like the sun and the sunrays) many have misunderstood and have either given improper translations into many languages around the world, or who have taken analogies like the sun and the sun rays literally. Was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, the Spiritual Master of His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, trying to explain that the living being was originally tossed down from the effulgent advaya light, but upgrading his followers' conditioning by adding the term "Vaikuntha" into this compound? Or, rather, was he trying to restructure the hardened conditioning of his scholastic well-wishers and even some of his devotees (who had become affected by the widespread interpretations of Impersonal origins prevalent at the time) by throwing in the term "advaya" to the compound advaya-vaikuntha. This is an unclear quote, and you can see how subtle the debate gets when these kinds of quotations are referenced.

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is therefore a manifestation of the secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees in Goloka as already clearly explained. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a phenomenon created by nitya-baddha secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha perpetual body and simultaneously facilitated by the sleeping Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva cloud. As such, Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha in the perpetual aspect of the Spiritual Sky is one and the same with the Brahmajyoti because the entire creation is the Brahmajyoti or the Brahman effulgence emanating/surrounding <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

In the Brahmajyoti, there exists all the Vaikuntha planets and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishnas</st1:place>’ personified marginal devotees known as the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees (they are the living personified vigrahas or Brahman effulgence in its highest understanding). Also in the Brahmajyoti there exists the mahat-tattva where the marginal vigraha devotees in Vaikuntha radiate from there being a secondary version of themselves that is only manifested when they choose to disrupt the perfect Krishna Conscious atmosphere of Vaikuntha. When they choose to do so, they are transferred by Yoga-Maya to Maha-Maya in the Mahat-tattva cloud in the Brahmajyoti and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Only there does <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> allow His marginal creation to do as they please and face the consequences however, they can never enter the mahat-tattva in their nitya-siddha-svarupa body, that is not possible, therefore their entry into the mahat-tattva is compared to a dreaming consciousness or the shadow of who they really are.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada, from his Bhagavad gita introduction -"Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but WE HAVE FORGOTTEN OUR eternal relationship with the Lord.

Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one's constitutional position".

 

 

Note, the life force is also known as the jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva, jiva-prakrita, jiva-nikaya, jiva-tatastha that are all various stages of dreaming consciousness that is projected outside of the perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha aspect of Spiritual Sky to the impermanent mahat-tattva cloud in one corner of that same Spiritual Sky.. The dreamless tatastha conscious dreamless condition of the jiva-tattva is situated between the Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva cloud. Such a dreamless conscious stat, like the mahat-tattva, is not permanent due to the inherent trait of eternal activity the lower conscious tatastha consciousness inherits from it nitya-siddha full consciousness or real genuine perpetual bodily self.

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

Why is this so difficult for many to understand? Simple answer, they think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and chanting of Hare Krishna. I personally heard Srila Prabhupada describe what follows and I suggest the below should be read again and again to understand the true facts of creation and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srila Prabhupada the Jagat Guru .

 

 

The Material Dream that is real but temporary and exists in one corner of the Spiritual Sky and is called the mahat-tattva

 

 

 

No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget Krishna as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples

 

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Consciousness.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

 

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

 

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

Srila Prabhupada So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Bhativinode Thakur “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

Srila Prabhupada- “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world.But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming stateafter we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation , we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition that cannot stay in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

 

 

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

This separate extention of the nitya siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition. Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

 

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”.

Srila Prabhupada makes the point – “We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”.

So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious conditioned phenomenon, or dream given fascility by th dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada continues – “Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming”

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupadais the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because -

 

Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

 

 

The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith DEVOTIONAL SERVICE and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

Why is this so difficult for many to understand? Simple answer, they think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and chanting of Hare Krishna. I personally heard Srila Prabhupada describe what is above and I suggest the above is should read again and again to understand and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srlia Prabhupada .

[Beggar 0]

 

You have to understand that there is a difference at times between siddhanta and preaching. Just like a child will be told one thing when they are young and another contradictory thing when they grow, preachers sometimes reel people in and get them started on the path with simplistic answers to complex questions. Progress in spiritual life comes from engaging in bhakti sadhana and the preacher will know just how to get people involved.

 

 

I also reject this outright as it is used to suggest that because people were so dull in the early days Srila Prabhupada made up a little story for his disciples like Adam and Eve (a great parable I might add). This very same debate was going on within Iskcon in the early seventies that I know of and to suggest that devotees then were being fed Santa Claus stories I find offensive.

 

Theist you are just being defensive. All those who are conditioned souls and have no enlightenment in Krsna Consciousness are dull. Prabhupada used to say that the Indians were devotees just below the surface of their consciousness. This idea must be based on the verse, bharata bhumite hoile manusya janma... So the preaching to Indians who have some background in varnasrama society and even some sort of Vaisnavism would be different than to those from the "foreign" countries. Amongst the foreigners, those who have a Judeo-Christian heritage and little or no connection with Indian religious thought will always be carry their own unique misconceptions, and conceptual limitations as a class. So preaching techniques can vary and the advanced devotee preacher can engage persons by hook or by crook. Sometimes Prabhupada would tell that Krsna Consciousess is an easy path, simply chanting and dancing and taking such nice prasadam. Sometimes he would say that the path is difficult. Do you seriously believe that stating that Krsna Consciouness is simply chanting, dancing and feasting is the Gaudiya siddhanta? Give me a break!

[theist 1]

Yes that's a nice picture Sarva. When I first became interested in Krsna consciousness my favorite picture was similar. Only it had Narada Muni in the front. I became entranced by the smile on that four armed Vishnu form and I swear He was smiling at me. Everyone that looked of course but I didn't realize that at that time.

[theist 1]

 

Sometimes Prabhupada would tell that Krsna Consciousess is an easy path, simply chanting and dancing and taking such nice prasadam. Sometimes he would say that the path is difficult. Do you seriously believe that stating that Krsna Consciouness is simply chanting, dancing and feasting is the Gaudiya siddhanta? Give me a break!

 

Chanting dancing and feasting is sufficient for total Krsna conscious realization. Chanting alone can fully cleanse the heart. Of course if we resist that change then we can take to the philosophy to try and eradicate our doubts. And for preachers it is also important.

 

Apparently you don't believe in the self-sufficent power of the Holy Name. I have the same problem that's why we feel it necessary to engage in jnana misra bhakti instead of bhakti motivate by preme alone. Were the gopis big big philosophers?

[Guest guest]

 

 

WE ALL ORIGINATED FROM GOLOKA

 

<U><?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p></U>

The beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us that the perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, known as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana and encircled by theimperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets, where Krishna’s numerable expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) takes up 3/4 of the imperishable Spiritual Sky or total creation. Krishna’s planet is centered above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets; both transcendental abodes are made up of living entities (individual bodily personalities or Krishna’s marginal potency) with eternal devotional bodies where no material energy (Maha-Maya) can exist. The nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha devotee’s (Krishna’s marginal potency) can never fall down as their bodily devotional self because of the perpetual uninterrupted nature of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky that is set in the eternal present beyond the concept of past and future.<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe divided by past, present and future and only 1/4 of creation)

This dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees).

Ones secondary consciousness enters the dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti due to their desires not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming, Maha-Vishnu.

 

 

 

 

Understanding the true origins of all living entities

 

This book is based on the teachings of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. The difference between mental speculation and philosophical speculation is backing up ones realizations with quotes from Srila Prabhupada who is my Spiritual Master. Unless one engages in philosophical speculation, just how will one formulate relevant questions to place before their guru and search through his teachings for correct meaning and understanding? The difference between philosophical and mental speculation is conclusions based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings (books, tapes and letters) that is handed down to our society in the 21<SUP>st</SUP> Century giving the correct meaning and translations of all previous Acharayas.

Srila Prabhupada is the 32nd Spiritual Master in a line of disciplic succession that goes all the way back to Krishna. Srila Prabhupada, unlike all previous Acharayas, has spread the teachings of Lord Krishna and Sri Chaitanya to every corner of the globe. Due to his endeavours the chanting of Hare Krishna and the distribution of his books has reached every city, town and village around the world where Krishna has now become a house hold name.

Chanting Hare Krishna and engaging in devotional service will protect a sincere aspiring devotee as the cobbler was protected in the story of ‘the cobbler and the jnani’ (page ?) however there are also those sincere souls who may become disillusioned if they only follow the charisma of a particular Guru, Swami or general devotee when a philosophical crisis develops due to their sentimental understanding of Vedanta. Srila Prabhupada wanted all his disciples and grand disciples etc to study his books and learn HIS teachings and not simply become an un-knowledgeable follower in someone else’s religious plans, "Don't think, just do what you are told prabhu may have its place in helping some, but it is certainly not meant for everyone”, it is an old cliché that can be misused and deny one from their own personal realizations and natural Spiritual development and growth. This is also called being institutionalised.

If you don’t want to be cheated when buying a diamond, you must have some knowledge of what a diamond is, similarly one must have some understanding of Spiritual life to begin with and then develop a solid understanding of Srila Prabhupadas books. In this way one will not be mislead by material charisma, dictatorial power and conflicting Vaishnava theories and dreaded Impersonalism. One must study Srila Prabhupadas books, tapes, letters and interviews diligently and openly challenge anyone who contradicts those books. The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters.

The writings in this thesis are inspired and based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings and my personal realizations and not mental speculation nor the dry institutionalized self-righteous parrot quoting of scriptures, although there is even great benefit in that. However the story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith and total dependence to the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

 

I was once cleaning the Temple room in early 1973, in the process, I removed the paintings of the Panca-tattva (Lord Chaitanya and Nityananda and their associates) and Radha and Krishna down and placed them on the step of Srila Prabhupadas Vysa sign at the feet of Srila Prabhupadas’ photo on the Vysa sign because I did not want to put the painting on the floor.

As I continued cleaning, to my surprise Srila Prabhupada came in and on seeing the paintings on the step of his Vysa sign, began laughing and laughing and laughing in a serious yet surprised mood. Then he said,

“What is this?”

He was referring to the paintings of Radha and Krishna and the Panca-tattva sitting at his feet.

Srila Prabhupada then gently explained -

“I sit at the feet of Krishna and Lord Chaitanya, when you go back to Krishna, back to Goloka, you will understand.”

He then laughed again finding it humorous that one of his Western devotees would put the beautiful paintings of the Lord at the feet of their Spiritual Master

Srila Prabhupada had tears in his eyes as he began to start chanting japa while looking at the attractive painting of the Panca tattva and Radha and Krishna. (The curtains to the Dieties were closed)

Everyone else was out on Sankirtan except for the few devotees in the Kitchen. So there I was with Srila Prabhupada and no one else around in the Temple room. Srila Prabhupada said, after chanting for a few minutes -

“Radha and Krishna as Lord Chaitanya is very nice and so attractive’,

He then continued to laugh again as a father would laugh at the childish attempts of his young son to glorify him. What he was seeing I certainly could not see. Srila Prabhupada then started chanting japa in the temple room softly and I continued cleaning. When I finished the maintenance, Prabhupada then said in a humble chastising mood -

‘Now you can put the paintings back on the wall and always remember that I am always at the feet of Radha and Krishna, next time you clean, put the paintings on a chair and not on the step of the Vysa-sign, one day you will also wake up from this miserable world and also see that Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes - always chant Hare Krishna”

For the next ten minutes we both chanted japa and then he payed his obeisances to Radha and Krishna, I payed my obediences to him and Srila Prabhupada went back to his room.

As a young 20 year old, the significance of his mercy was taken for granted, we had no idea of the significance of being pioneers in Lord Chaitanyas’ Movement in 1972 although we new that distributing Srila Prabhupadas books and chanting Hare Krishna on the streets in so many cities, towns was something very special. It was only thirty years later I began to realize how significant my association with Srila Prabhupada was, for me, I always believed we were once with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada personally confirmed that to me - “Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes” – Always chant Hare Krishna.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This thesis is attempting to understand how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

 

 

This separate version of the self is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> – <u1:p></u1:p>

“Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

<u1:p></u1:p><U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear</U>. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes the point – <u1:p></u1:p>

“We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious phenomenon, only a dream. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada continues – <u1:p></u1:p>

“Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming” end of Srila Prabhupadas quote

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>The secondary extended conscious life force phenomena (jiva-sakti), emanating from ones own authentic perpetual rasa nitya-siddha bodily form (vigraha) in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha dominion, manifests due to its non-Krishna conscious nature. This jiva-sakti consciousness is transferred from Goloka and further facilitated or provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva creation. This cloud of the dreaming (the mahat-tattva) is also situated in the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (<st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) in one corner and is distinguished from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm by is phenomenal nature of impermanence and division of time. This has been a mystery to even many great Vishnavas (devotees of <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>) in the past in their attempts to try and understand the true origins of all living entities that enter that dark impermanent cloud in one corner of the Spiritual Sky (Brahmajyoti). <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>From the view point of the mahat-tattva, the jiva-sakti or the living force or life force (the extended consciousness of the nitya-siddha devotee in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti) may also fall from the jiva-tatastha conscious condition of spark like dormant consciousness that is situated between the Vaikunthas (Vishnuloka) and the mahat-tattva (the Impersonal aspect of Krishnas individual marginal consciousnesses or Brahmajyoti) however, from the bigger picture ofthecreation outside of the mahat-tattva and the thin Impersonal Brahmajyoti realm of marginal consciousnesses or dormant life forces (tatastha-saktis) separating the imperishable (Goloka) from the perishable (Vaikuntha), Srila Prabhupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation and long, long, long, long before that our secondary consciousness was transferred or extended from our rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Brahmajyoti Spiritual Sky.<u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.<u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Ones secondary conscious projection</U> (jiva-bhutah) in this way can only manifest as a dormant spiritual spark (jiva-tatastha) AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. Such a dreamless conscious aspect of the life force (jiva-sakti) is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha condition of consciousness which is also the Impersonal extension of the Brahmajyoti we call the ‘Impersonal Brahmajyoti’. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>In this way we do not originate from tatastha or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti because JIVA-TATATHA CONSCIOUSNESS is a secondary conscious phenomenon transferred from ones rasa perpetual body in the beautiful Goloka-Vrndavana Spiritual sky or Brahmajyoti to the dark maha-tattva cloud in the same Spirtual Sky or Brahmajyoti as shown in the painting above. This may have to be read a few times to understand the real concept of Brahmajyoti and our authentic origins from Goloka. Only due to lack of real knowlege does one believe we originated from tatastha (the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti). All glories to Srila Prabhupada <!-- End - Right Container -->

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

We see above that 3/4 of creation is the Goloka-Vrndavan/Vaikutha realm and 1 /4 is the material or maha-tattva creation, in other words 1/4 of the nitya-siddhas have chosen to activate their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness or dreaming life force (jiva-sakti) and enter the impermanent dreams of Maha-Vishnu in a sub-conscious dreaming state due to their non-Krishna conscious desires.

It is therefore clear that 1 /4 of the marginal vigrahas do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud which numbers are enormous yet only 1/4 choose to make that conscious plunge as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us as shown in the painting above.

 

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21<SUP>st</SUP> century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of Krishna’s marginal emanations. Yet remember it is only 1 /4 of creation ‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva, 1/4 of all marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas who consciously enter the mahat-tattva or material manifestation, but never as their perpetual vigraha bodily form.

 

 

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

 

 

The various Vedic texts tell us that the Kingdom of Krishna is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

 

 

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode. This Krishna Conscious Vigraha self is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are ‘consciously’ unaware of that unending reality. This is due to our forgetfulness and dreaming non-Krishna conscious fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary), that transmits ‘the self interested thoughts one wants created’, to the the mahat-tattva (material universe).

 

 

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

 

 

 

 

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non Krishna Conscious desires cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

 

 

 

 

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with Krishna. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

 

 

 

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

 

 

 

 

 

The nitya-siddhas vigrahas and their secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, (when the latter is activated), are both the divided (Personal and Impersonal) marginal emanations perpetually surrounding Krishnas Vigraha form that makes Krishna the complete whole or the entire creation.

 

 

 

 

"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Supreme Lord has two energies, material (mahat-tattva cloud) and spiritual (the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm where Krishna and His marginal nitya-siddha devotees serve). The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, ones consciousness may be under the spell of the inanimate material energy (the mahat-tattva) under the control of Maha-Vishnu and Maha-Maya or the devotional Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky under the control of Krishnas internal Yoga-Maya.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter (ethereal and biological bodies), and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature (atma-vigraha perpetual self). Therefore, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

 

 

 

"The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and because he has this tendency, he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, marginal energy is not a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the nature of the jiva-atma-vigraha. It refers to a living being with the character of independently choosing between Krishnas two Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva. Therefore, the living beings do not expand from their jiva-tatastha aspect of marginal consciousness. This marginal energy (niya-siddha’s higher and nitya baddha lower expression of consciousness) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living beings.

 

 

 

If marginal beings (the living entity with its independent nature, original rasa body and the ability to extend its life force jiva-sakti sub-consciously out of that rasa body) choose to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

 

 

 

If the marginal living beings as their secondary conscious extention that finds shelter in the mahat-tattva, eventually chooses, after many, many births in the mahat-tattva, decides to go back home, back to Godhead (Goloka), on return, one will still find they have their marginal independence even as their full potential perpetual nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body. Returning back to Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha does not change ones individual marginal position into internal energy (cit-sakti) and become Vishnu-tattva-Vigraha. Although the nitya-siddhas are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual or a place where nothing other than living vigrahas exist serving Krishna the Supreme Vigraha), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha marginal devotees do not turn into Vishnu-tattva-Vigraha (cit-sakti), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

 

 

 

Marginal nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees can choose to live seperatly (in the sub-conscious extended life force jiva-sakti called the nitya-baddha conscious extention) from the nitya-siddha body they really are serving Krishna and enter into a dreaming sub-conscious lower self nitya-baddha condition that can only exist within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the maha-tattva.. Ones awareness of their surroundings can be situated either in the external mahat-tattva as their non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha consciousness, or remain in the internal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Kingdom of God as their full conscious nitya-siddha bodily self.

 

 

 

One can choose to be as their Krishna Conscious perpetual body or float away to the mahat-tattva in non-Krishna conscious dreams as their nitya-baddha jiva-sakti consciousness. In this way, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal consciousness can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal consciousness (because of ones free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal consciousness therefore those who believe they cannot fall ‘consciously’ from Vaikuntha are deluding themselves and misleading their followers.

 

 

[Guest guest]

If you don’t want to be cheated when buying a diamond, you must have some knowledge of what a diamond is, similarly one must have some understanding of Spiritual life to begin with and then develop a solid understanding of Srila Prabhupadas books. In this way one will not be mislead by material charisma, dictatorial power and conflicting Vaishnava theories and dreaded Impersonalism.

One must study Srila Prabhupadas’ books, tapes, letters and interviews diligently and openly challenge anyone who contradicts those books, referring mostly to Impersonalists, Buddhists, materialists and mundane religionists.

The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters are all as equal as each other. Why wouldn’t they be so? Srila Prabhupada warned us to not dwell too much of why and how we are here, but to get out. On many occasions he has said that our existence in the material world is so long that it seems we have come from tatastha, then throws a transcendental spanner in the works by saying that before that we also existed in another creation of matter and before that, and before that, and before that – how far can we go back? And he finishes by saying, before that even, we were with Krishna.

 

1. The time factor of past present and future exists in the mahat-tattva, a place of divided time that has the effect of decay and impermanence.

 

2. The impersonal characteristic of ones consciousness is called the jiva-tatastha conscious state that is devoid of past, present and future. The jiva-sakti consciousness is suspended in a dreamless timeless existence we call tatatasha, but even that conscious state is temporary due to the inherent active nature of one consciousness that originates from ones perpetual rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

3. The goloka-Vrndavan realm on the other hand is fully active in a way where there is no past or future, there is only the perpetual present, and so everything has always been there and will always be there. Our svarupa body has always been there.

 

Srila Prabhupada is the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

 

The writings in this thesis are inspired and based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings and my personal realizations and not mental speculation nor the dry institutionalized self-righteous parrot quoting of scriptures, although there is even great benefit in that. However the story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith and total dependence to the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

[Guruvani 0]

In essence, this Vigraha foolishness is attempting to establish that the brahman aspect of "brahmeti, paramatmeti, bhagavan it sadbyate" does not exist.

 

According to Vigraha there is no "brahmeti".

According to Vigraha there is only Bhagavan and no Paramatma and no Brahman.

 

Brahman is for real.

 

Neophyte Vaishnavas might have a problem with accepting that Brahman is a reality, but that is only because they enjoy manufacturing their own siddhanta according to their fanstasyland ideas.

[Beggar 0]

 

 

WE ALL ORIGINATED FROM GOLOKa

 

In a sense this can be like saying that everything comes from Krsna, including the brahmajyoti and the jiva souls. The issue being discussed is how this unfolds.

 

 

 

 

<u><u1:p></u1:p></u>

I was once cleaning the Temple room in early 1973, in the process, I removed the paintings of the Panca-tattva (Lord Chaitanya and Nityananda and their associates) and Radha and Krishna down and placed them on the step of Srila Prabhupadas Vysa sign at the feet of Srila Prabhupadas’ photo on the Vysa sign because I did not want to put the painting on the floor.

As I continued cleaning, to my surprise Srila Prabhupada came in and on seeing the paintings on the step of his Vysa sign, began laughing and laughing and laughing in a serious yet surprised mood. Then he said,

“What is this?”

He was referring to the paintings of Radha and Krishna and the Panca-tattva sitting at his feet.

Srila Prabhupada then gently explained -

“I sit at the feet of Krishna and Lord Chaitanya, when you go back to Krishna, back to Goloka, you will understand.”

He then laughed again finding it humorous that one of his Western devotees would put the beautiful paintings of the Lord at the feet of their Spiritual Master

Srila Prabhupada had tears in his eyes as he began to start chanting japa while looking at the attractive painting of the Panca tattva and Radha and Krishna. (The curtains to the Dieties were closed)

Everyone else was out on Sankirtan except for the few devotees in the Kitchen. So there I was with Srila Prabhupada and no one else around in the Temple room. Srila Prabhupada said, after chanting for a few minutes -

“Radha and Krishna as Lord Chaitanya is very nice and so attractive’,

He then continued to laugh again as a father would laugh at the childish attempts of his young son to glorify him. What he was seeing I certainly could not see. Srila Prabhupada then started chanting japa in the temple room softly and I continued cleaning. When I finished the maintenance, Prabhupada then said in a humble chastising mood -

‘Now you can put the paintings back on the wall and always remember that I am always at the feet of Radha and Krishna, next time you clean, put the paintings on a chair and not on the step of the Vysa-sign, one day you will also wake up from this miserable world and also see that Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes - always chant Hare Krishna”

For the next ten minutes we both chanted japa and then he payed his obeisances to Radha and Krishna, I payed my obediences to him and Srila Prabhupada went back to his room.

As a young 20 year old, the significance of his mercy was taken for granted, we had no idea of the significance of being pioneers in Lord Chaitanyas’ Movement in 1972 although we new that distributing Srila Prabhupadas books and chanting Hare Krishna on the streets in so many cities, towns was something very special. It was only thirty years later I began to realize how significant my association with Srila Prabhupada was, for me, I always believed we were once with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada personally confirmed that to me - “Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes” – Always chant Hare Krishna.

 

 

 

We had the same debate about the origin of the soul in the Miami temple during the summer of 1972. Some of the devotees were of one opinion on the subject and some of the other. I think at that time if we could look 35 years into the future and saw that devotees were obsessively (ourselves for God's sake) arguing and becoming bitter about this issue then we would have been very shocked and suprised. Your personal story about Srila Prabhupada is very sweet, indeed. When we are "back" with Krsna, no matter how the word back is viewed or understood, then none of this will have any significance. Hare Krsna

[theist 1]

On a side note I am still waiting for the day when guruvani can write more than two sentences without insulting someone.