We All Originated From Goloka

Guruvani · May 12, 2007

Another problem with the fall-from-goloka theory is that according to shastra, according to Srila Prabhupada is that before a devotee can go to Goloka he must first take birth in a universe where the pastimes of Krishna are taking place and develop his relationship with Krishna in Gokula before he can enter into Krishnaloka or Goloka Vrindavan.

If we already have a body in Goloka, then why does Srila Prabhupada and Srila Rupa Gsowami say that we have to take a birth in Gokula, Vrindavan before we can go back to Goloka Vrindavan?

Because, the birth in Gokula is necessary to get our siddha body with which we can associate with Krishna and his devotees.

Since there is no birth or death on Goloka, we get birth in Gokula, Vrindavan as it is being manifested in some universe somwhere in the cosmos.

So, the perfected devotee takes BIRTH in Gokula and then after the pastimes of Krishna are finished on that planet the devotees go back to Goloka, Vrindavan.

So, if the fall from Goloka theory is correct and we already have a form in Goloka that we have forgotten about, then why does the devotee have to take birth at Gokula, Vrindavan on some planet in a material universe before he can go back to Godhead?

It's this birth at Gokula which gives the pure devotee his first association with Krishna and provides for a seamless transition to Goloka, Vrindavan from that situation, thus accomodating the fact that there is no birth or death on Goloka.

Madhya 20, 397 purport

There are two types of devotees — the sādhaka, who is preparing for perfection, and the siddha, who is already perfect. As far as those who are already perfect are concerned, Lord Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā (4.9), tyaktvā dehaḿ punar janma naiti mām eti so 'rjuna: "After giving up this material body, such a devotee comes to Me." After leaving the material body, the perfect devotee takes birth from the womb of a gopī on a planet where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are going on. This may be in this universe or another universe. This statement is found in the Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi, which is commented upon by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. When a devotee becomes perfect, he is transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are taking place. Kṛṣṇa's eternal associates go wherever Kṛṣṇa manifests His pastimes. As stated before, first the father and mother of Kṛṣṇa appear, then the other associates. Quitting his material body, the perfect devotee also goes to associate with Kṛṣṇa and His other associates.

So, this should clarify the problem that the fall-from-goloka theorists have with resolving the fact that there is no birth in Goloka and therefore coming to their erroneous theories about fallens souls already having a form there but are dreaming that they don't.

There is no birth on Goloka. But, there is birth at Gokula and a seamless transition from Gokula to Goloka through that birth.

Guruvani · May 12, 2007

Srila Prabhupada explains in this purport that the living entity is only prone to falling down before he enters the Vaikuntha planets and that falling down only occurs from brahman or Paramatma realizations.

Bhag, 3.25, 29 purport:

Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuṇṭha planets, directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. Another word in this verse, bhagavad-bāṇaḥ, is very significant. Bāṇaḥ means "arrow." The bhakti-yoga system is just like an arrow aiming up to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The bhakti-yoga system never urges one towards the impersonal Brahman effulgence or to the point of Paramātmā realization. This bāṇaḥ, or arrow, is so sharp and swift that it goes directly to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, penetrating the regions of impersonal Brahman and localized Paramātmā.

It's quite clear here that Srila Prabhupada is saying that there is no fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and that the fall of the jiva happens either from Brahman or Paramatma.

Sarva gattah · May 12, 2007

Why is this so difficult for so many to understand the truth of what is really going on in the universal creation?

We must understand what personalism is, we must understand that <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation is personal which means we are all persons as well. <?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Just as Krishna is a perpetual bodily person, so are all His marginal emanations however, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is always master and his marginal nitya-siddha devotees are always His servant.

Prabhupada – “Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone.

Prabhupada - “Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”.

Prabhupada – “Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa”.

Prabhupada – “By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi -- perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship”.

Many Gaudiya Vaisnavas have all become polluted with Impersonalism that deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation by foolishly and hysterically claiming the soul originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious bodily form due to our nitya-jiva-baddha non-Krishna conscious dreams.

All impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha condition of marginal fallen consciousness which is the lower self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha self as already explained. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation has always been which means He is always an eternal bodily person and so are all His marginal effulgent emanations of subsidiary beings.

This understanding is the basic difference between a Personalist and an Impersonalist

This understanding is the basic difference between a personalist and an Impersonalist although there are far worse impersonal conditions were one denies <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> altogether and argue that from the Brahmajyoti is where we originally came from, and to the Brahmajyoti we will return.

What follows and I suggest the below should be read again and again to understand the true facts of creation and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul.

HARE <st1:place w:st="on">KRISHNA</st1:place> All glories to Srila Prabhupada the Jagat Guru .

The Material Dream that is real but temporary and exists in one corner of the Spiritual Sky and is called the mahat-tattva

No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples

Srila Prabhupada- “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada- “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupadais very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position,we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

Srila Prabhupada– “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada– “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there”.

Srila Prabhupada – “There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide”.

Srila Prabhupada"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya.

Srila Prabhupada “FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT”.

Srila Prabhupada-"But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going.

Srila Prabhupada – “Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness".

Srila Prabhupada "Just like in a dreamwe are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only".

Srila Prabhupada "Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming conditionis called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second".

Srila Prabhupada"He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

Srila Prabhupada - "So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he can go only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes BACK to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Bhativinode Thakur“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

Srila Prabhupada- “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada-“Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming statedue to our non-Krishna conscious choices”.

In this dreaming state, after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu, we forget our actual positionand thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is refering to our perpetual svarupa body),

We are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition that cannot stay in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva”.

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body. are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

This seconday (conditioned) extension of the nitya-siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada:“Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!”

Srila Prabhupada- “He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation”.

theist · May 12, 2007

It's not a quote from Srila Prabhupada. It is merely Viagraha's assertion. And it is false.

Whooops'o. My illusioned sense perception at work. At the risk of getting involved in the debate I will say I see nothing wrong in the statement. But then as I have just proven my perception of things is subject to illusion.

The question I raised still stands though. How do the origin from tatastha region vadis respond to the question of new souls continually appearing in Goloka?

To me the idea seems as strange as souls suddenly disappearing or laying around in Goloka.

Are there other options/answers that we can't conceive of yet? That are not within the realm of our debate? I suspect so.

theist · May 12, 2007

Theist from what I have read of Vigraha and co, I think you mean the dreaming consciousness is nitya baddha and the svarupa body is nitya siddha

Thank you for pointing out my typo. It was a significant one and I edited my post accordingly.

I often wake up in the middle of the night and post something. Last night I don't think I was fully awake.

Guruvani · May 12, 2007

Srila Prabhupada settles the debate!

He said "here is the answer"!!!!

Bhag, 3.25, 29 purport:
 Quote:

Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuṇṭha planets, directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. Another word in this verse, bhagavad-bāṇaḥ, is very significant. Bāṇaḥ means "arrow." The bhakti-yoga system is just like an arrow aiming up to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The bhakti-yoga system never urges one towards the impersonal Brahman effulgence or to the point of Paramātmā realization. This bāṇaḥ, or arrow, is so sharp and swift that it goes directly to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, penetrating the regions of impersonal Brahman and localized Paramātmā.

Guruvani · May 12, 2007

The question I raised still stands though. How do the origin from tatastha region vadis respond to the question of new souls continually appearing in Goloka?

Duh?

Krishnaloka is unlimited in size.

It is said to be even greater than the rest of the Vaikuntha world combined.

Are you proposing that every devotee on that planet knows every other devotee and can know if and when liberated souls are entering there?

Krishnaloka is also not a stagnant place.

It is very dynamic and ever expanding.

There are more living beings on Goloka than in all the Vaikuntha world and the material world combined.

Do you think everybody there knows everything about everybody?

Also, how to explain that nitya siddhas are taking birth over and over again in the material universes as the pastimes of Krishna are enacted on planets all over the cosmos?

There is no birth on Goloka, yet millions of nitya-siddhas take birth with Krishna every time he incarnates on some planet.

Goloka is not a little village.

It's unlimited.

The question of new devotees appearing on Goloka is hardly an intelligent inquiry when you are talking about a planet that is unlimted in size and scope.

Siddha devotees first take birth at Gokula on a planet where Krishna is manifesting his pastimes.

So, from there they go back to Goloka.

Devotees on Goloka aren't standing around like kids at school thinking

"look, there is new kid in town".

On a planet of unlimted size and scope, it is a question that doesn't come up.

Sarva gattah · May 12, 2007

The dreaming Maha-Vishnu is the destination of the nitya-siddhas' secondary nitya-baddha consciousness activated when one chooses to forget Krishna

PART TWO

Srila Prabhupada- "He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation". Srila Prabhupada – "Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger.

Srila Prabhupada- "That situation is created by the dreaming. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity".

Srila Prabhupada "… People are running, "Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," identifying that "Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors."

Srila Prabhupada "All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream". That’s all".

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?" Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming,

Srila Prabhupada – "For example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point".

Srila Prabhupada makes the point – "We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you"

So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious conditioned phenomenon, or dream given facility by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada continues – "Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that "I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply Krishna’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that".

Srila Prabhupada - "When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious".

Srila Prabhupada -"Oh, Krishna is my eternal master. I am His servant." That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen".

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming"

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities".

Srila Prabhupada – "Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence"

Srila Prabhupada - "But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from.

In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah, jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva and about 170 other jiva definitions), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are extended via ones sub-conscious secondary nitya-baddha self and expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva provided by Maha-Vishnu.

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires.

Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non Krishna Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada is the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because -Srila

Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith, DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, CHANTING HARE KRISHNA and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

Why is this so difficult for many to understand? Simple answer, they think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and chanting of Hare Krishna.

I humbly suggest the above is should read again and again to understand and defeat the Impersonalists their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srlia Prabhupada .

Lets all chant Hare Krishna and one day all of us will all wake up from our mundane dreams and nightmares in this material world of thinking e are these material bodies (ethereal and biological vessels).

Only then will we see the real truth and transfer our conscious awareness of our existence back as our geniun Krishna Conscious svarupa body in Goloka or Vrndavan, instead of being caught up life after life in the dreams of the material world and the impersonal atheistic jiva-tatastha consciousness escape, or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti relief from suffering within the material world.

Our eternal svarupa bodily self is who we all really individually are, and always have been eternally whether you believe it or not.

krsna · May 12, 2007

One who is liberated can understand otherwise not. It will be like trying to describe China to someone who's never been there before.

Sarva gattah · May 12, 2007

The dreaming Maha-Vishnu is the destination of the nitya-siddhas' secondary nitya-baddha consciousness activated when one chooses to forget Krishna

Srila Prabhupada – "For example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point".

Srila Prabhupada makes the point – "We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you"

So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA) phenomenon, or dream given facility by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada continues – "Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that "I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply Krishna’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that".

Sarva gattah · May 12, 2007

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This state of nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe) and into the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, which are real but temporary and then housed in ethereal and eventually biological bodies provided by Maha-Vishnu. These bodily suits enables the visiting jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva, jiva-prakriti, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva consciousness conditions to enter the enclosed atmosphere of the mahat-tattva or material creation, just as a space suit allows one to enter the realms of outerspace out of our earthly atmoshere.

Guruvani · May 12, 2007

Srila Prabhupada continues – "Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that "I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply Krishna’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that".

Here Prabhupada confirms that we did not fall from Goloka.

He says were are dreaming in the Maha-tattva.

And the kind of liberation he must be refering to must be sayujya-mukti, not svarupya-mukti, because before a devotee can go back to Godhead he must take birth on a planet in the material world where the pastimes of Krishna are being manifested.

You can't just go from kali-yuga meat-eater to Goloka in one moment.

You have to take birth on a planet where Krishna is manifesting his pastimes and establish your form and your relationship with Krishna there first.

May 12, 2007

The secondary creation (mahat-tattva or material creation) is a phenomena created by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that gives a reality to the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the vigraha (perpetual bodily form) devotees in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha when they choose to ignore Krishna and sub-consciously enter His dreams within that Maha-tattva cloud.

The dark cloud for the dreaming in the Spiritual Sky is entering the dreams of Maha Vishnu, Entering the ‘black or material universe’ as a secondary life force (jiva-tattva) simultaneously disqualifies one of being aware of their eternal Krishna Conscious rasa body (the authentic self) that is the source of the jiva-sakti consciousness or life force dream state. Both the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the atma-vigraha devotee’s originate from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) that has been a mystery to even many great Vishnavas (devotee’s of Krishna) in the past, yet correctly understood by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

The atma-vigraha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form, OR the so-called marginal sparks that are ALL constitutionally perpetual personal bodily forms (marginal vigraha devotee’s) ARE the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is the Supreme Vigraha body from whence His entire marginal vigraha devotee’s initiate. However the second-rate extended conscious phenomena, which radiates as a dreaming life force (jiva-sakti), is transferred out of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that takes up residence in the mahat-tattva (material universes). Ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts emanates as a secondary consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) from the atma-vigraha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form that never leaves Goloka.

This is becoming very revealing and interesting

Guruvani · May 12, 2007

This is becoming very revealing and interesting

It's becoming more absurd and ridiculous.

It's a forgery or false siddhanta that is based on fabrication and lies.

May 12, 2007

It's becoming more absurd and ridiculous.
It's a forgery or false siddhanta that is based on fabrication and lies.

No I would agree with Ram das. Its revealing in that it shows how little people know and badly they need some guidance. It's interesting in that there are people who actually believe this.

Beggar · May 13, 2007

No I would agree with Ram das. Its revealing in that it shows how little people know and badly they need some guidance. It's interesting in that there are people who actually believe this.

Many beginnners have no concept of how acintya bheda-[a]bheda tattva fits into the picture. For them everything becomes black and white without shades of gray. The dualism proposed by the Vigraha's and fellow travellers refuses to look at the many apparent contradictions. Instead of harmonizing these apparent contradictions, they just act like they don't exist. Sridhar Maharaja said (in paraphrasing a sloka), "You cannot get everything from one guru". In physical reality you need a third point or point of reference to triangulate and find out how far away is an object. Krsna Consciousness without a siksa guru is one dimensional and has no depth. Generally senior ISKCONite persons are wannabe Prabhupada robots without their own realization. How could such imitationist be real siksa gurus to anyone? The absense of the siksa guru creates a fog wherein all sorts of deviations will arise.

muralidhar_das · May 13, 2007

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Vigraha

Both the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the atma-vigraha devotee’s originate from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) that has been a mystery to even many great Vishnavas (devotee’s of Krishna) in the past, yet correctly understood by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Are you now admitting no "Vishnavas (devotee’s of Krishna) in the past" including Sukadeva, Vyasa, Bhaktivinode Thakur, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura or Rupa and Sanatana ever taught that the associates of the Lord in Vaikuntha are dreaming they are experiencing birth and death in the material world?

Since you have never produced a single quote from any of these Acharyas to back up your "dream-fall" theory, do you acknowledge that none of the previous Acharyas support this idea that soul dreams he has fallen into material suffering?

Please explain this proposition you make, that it is only His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada who has really "understood" this new truth, a new revelation that the previous Acharyas had not understood?

Sri Chaitanya explained jiva-tattva to Sanatan Goswami, and Sanatana, Rupa, Kaviraj Gosai and others have repeated what they heard. All of them talk about how souls have come into material existence, and none of them mention this idea you allege Srila Prabhupada was teaching.

Vigraha · May 14, 2007

We see above that 3/4 of creation is the Goloka-Vrndavan/Vaikutha realm and 1 /4 is the material or maha-tattva creation, in other words 1/4 of the nitya-siddhas have chosen to activate their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness or dreaming life force (jiva-sakti) and enter the impermanent dreams of Maha-Vishnu in a sub-conscious dreaming state due to their non-Krishna conscious desires.

It is therefore clear that 1 /4 of the marginal vigrahas do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud which numbers are enormous yet only 1/4 choose to make that conscious plunge as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us as shown in the painting above.

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21<SUP>st</SUP> century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of Krishna’s marginal emanations. Yet remember it is only 1 /4 of creation ‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva, 1/4 of all marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas who consciously enter the mahat-tattva or material manifestation, but never as their perpetual vigraha bodily form.

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

The various Vedic texts tell us that the Kingdom of Krishna is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode. This Krishna Conscious Vigraha self is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are ‘consciously’ unaware of that unending reality. This is due to our forgetfulness and dreaming non-Krishna conscious fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary), that transmits ‘the self interested thoughts one wants created’, to the the mahat-tattva (material universe).

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non Krishna Conscious desires cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with Krishna. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

The nitya-siddhas vigrahas and their secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, (when the latter is activated), are both the divided (Personal and Impersonal) marginal emanations perpetually surrounding Krishnas Vigraha form that makes Krishna the complete whole or the entire creation.

"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

The Supreme Lord has two energies, material (mahat-tattva cloud) and spiritual (the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm where Krishna and His marginal nitya-siddha devotees serve). The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, ones consciousness may be under the spell of the inanimate material energy (the mahat-tattva) under the control of Maha-Vishnu and Maha-Maya or the devotional Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky under the control of Krishnas internal Yoga-Maya.

"The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter (ethereal and biological bodies), and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature (atma-vigraha perpetual self). Therefore, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

"The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and because he has this tendency, he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

So, marginal energy is not a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the nature of the jiva-atma-vigraha. It refers to a living being with the character of independently choosing between Krishnas two Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva. Therefore, the living beings do not expand from their jiva-tatastha aspect of marginal consciousness. This marginal energy (niya-siddha’s higher and nitya baddha lower expression of consciousness) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living beings.

If marginal beings (the living entity with its independent nature, original rasa body and the ability to extend its life force jiva-sakti sub-consciously out of that rasa body) choose to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living beings as their secondary conscious extention that finds shelter in the mahat-tattva, eventually chooses, after many, many births in the mahat-tattva, decides to go back home, back to Godhead (Goloka), on return, one will still find they have their marginal independence even as their full potential perpetual nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body. Returning back to Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha does not change ones individual marginal position into internal energy (cit-sakti) and become Vishnu-tattva-Vigraha. Although the nitya-siddhas are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual or a place where nothing other than living vigrahas exist serving Krishna the Supreme Vigraha), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha marginal devotees do not turn into Vishnu-tattva-Vigraha (cit-sakti), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees can choose to live seperatly (in the sub-conscious extended life force jiva-sakti called the nitya-baddha conscious extention) from the nitya-siddha body they really are serving Krishna and enter into a dreaming sub-conscious lower self nitya-baddha condition that can only exist within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the maha-tattva.. Ones awareness of their surroundings can be situated either in the external mahat-tattva as their non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha consciousness, or remain in the internal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Kingdom of God as their full conscious nitya-siddha bodily self.

One can choose to be as their Krishna Conscious perpetual body or float away to the mahat-tattva in non-Krishna conscious dreams as their nitya-baddha jiva-sakti consciousness. In this way, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal consciousness can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal consciousness (because of ones free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal consciousness therefore those who believe they cannot fall ‘consciously’ from Vaikuntha are deluding themselves and misleading their followers.

Vigraha · May 14, 2007

The dreaming Maha-Vishnu is the destination of the nitya-siddhas' secondary nitya-baddha consciousness activated when one chooses to forget Krishna

PART TWO

Srila Prabhupada- "He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation". Srila Prabhupada – "Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger.

Srila Prabhupada- "That situation is created by the dreaming. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity".

Srila Prabhupada "… People are running, "Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," identifying that "Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors."

Srila Prabhupada "All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream". That’s all".

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?" Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming,

Srila Prabhupada – "For example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point".

Srila Prabhupada makes the point – "We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you"

So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious conditioned phenomenon, or dream given facility by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada continues – "Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that "I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply Krishna’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that".

Srila Prabhupada - "When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious".

Srila Prabhupada -"Oh, Krishna is my eternal master. I am His servant." That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen".

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming"

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities".

Srila Prabhupada – "Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence"

Srila Prabhupada - "But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from.

In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah, jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva and about 170 other jiva definitions), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are extended via ones sub-conscious secondary nitya-baddha self and expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva provided by Maha-Vishnu.

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires.

Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non Krishna Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada is the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because -Srila

Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith, DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, CHANTING HARE KRISHNA and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

Why is this so difficult for many to understand? Simple answer, they think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and chanting of Hare Krishna.

I humbly suggest the above is should read again and again to understand and defeat the Impersonalists their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srlia Prabhupada .

Lets all chant Hare Krishna and one day all of us will all wake up from our mundane dreams and nightmares in this material world of thinking e are these material bodies (ethereal and biological vessels).

Only then will we see the real truth and transfer our conscious awareness of our existence back as our geniun Krishna Conscious svarupa body in Goloka or Vrndavan, instead of being caught up life after life in the dreams of the material world and the impersonal atheistic jiva-tatastha consciousness escape, or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti relief from suffering within the material world.

Our eternal svarupa bodily self is who we all really individually are, and always have been eternally whether you believe it or not.

Vigraha · May 14, 2007

The dreaming Maha-Vishnu is the destination of the nitya-siddhas' secondary nitya-baddha consciousness activated when one chooses to forget Krishna

PART TWO

Srila Prabhupada- "He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation".

Srila Prabhupada – "Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger.

Srila Prabhupada- "That situation is created by the dreaming. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity".

Srila Prabhupada "… People are running, "Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," identifying that "Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors."

Srila Prabhupada "All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream". That’s all".

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?" Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming,

Srila Prabhupada – "For example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point".

Srila Prabhupada makes the point – "We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you"

So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious conditioned phenomenon, or dream given facility by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada continues – "Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that "I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply Krishna’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that".

Srila Prabhupada - "When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious".

Srila Prabhupada -"Oh, Krishna is my eternal master. I am His servant." That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen".

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming"

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities".

Srila Prabhupada – "Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence"

Srila Prabhupada - "But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from.

In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah, jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva and about 170 other jiva definitions), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are extended via ones sub-conscious secondary nitya-baddha self and expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva provided by Maha-Vishnu.

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires.

Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non Krishna Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada is the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because -Srila

Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith, DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, CHANTING HARE KRISHNA and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

Why is this so difficult for many to understand? Simple answer, they think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and chanting of Hare Krishna.

I humbly suggest the above is should read again and again to understand and defeat the Impersonalists their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srlia Prabhupada .

Lets all chant Hare Krishna and one day all of us will all wake up from our mundane dreams and nightmares in this material world of thinking e are these material bodies (ethereal and biological vessels).

Only then will we see the real truth and transfer our conscious awareness of our existence back as our geniun Krishna Conscious svarupa body in Goloka or Vrndavan, instead of being caught up life after life in the dreams of the material world and the impersonal atheistic jiva-tatastha consciousness escape, or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti relief from suffering within the material world.

Our eternal svarupa bodily self is who we all really individually are, and always have been eternally whether you believe it or not.

Vigraha · May 14, 2007

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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

This state of nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe) and into the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, which are real but temporary and then housed in ethereal and eventually biological bodies provided by Maha-Vishnu. These bodily suits enables the visiting jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva, jiva-prakriti, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva consciousness conditions to enter the enclosed atmosphere of the mahat-tattva or material creation, just as a space suit allows one to enter the realms of outerspace out of our earthly atmoshere.

Vigraha · May 14, 2007

Why is this so difficult for so many to understand the truth of what is really going on in the universal creation?

PART ONE

We must understand what personalism is, we must understand that <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation is personal which means we are all persons as well. <?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Just as Krishna is a perpetual bodily person, so are all His marginal emanations however, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is always master and his marginal nitya-siddha devotees are always His servant.

Prabhupada – “Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone.

Prabhupada - “Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”.

Prabhupada – “Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa”.

Prabhupada – “By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi -- perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship”.

Many Gaudiya Vaisnavas have all become polluted with Impersonalism that deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation by foolishly and hysterically claiming the soul originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious bodily form due to our nitya-jiva-baddha non-Krishna conscious dreams.

All impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha condition of marginal fallen consciousness which is the lower self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha self as already explained. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation has always been which means He is always an eternal bodily person and so are all His marginal effulgent emanations of subsidiary beings.

This understanding is the basic difference between a Personalist and an Impersonalist

This understanding is the basic difference between a personalist and an Impersonalist although there are far worse impersonal conditions were one denies <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> altogether and argue that from the Brahmajyoti is where we originally came from, and to the Brahmajyoti we will return.

What follows and I suggest the below should be read again and again to understand the true facts of creation and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul.

HARE <st1:place w:st="on">KRISHNA</st1:place> All glories to Srila Prabhupada the Jagat Guru .

The Material Dream that is real but temporary and exists in one corner of the Spiritual Sky and is called the mahat-tattva

No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples

Srila Prabhupada- “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada- “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupadais very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position,we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

Srila Prabhupada– “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada– “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there”.

Srila Prabhupada – “There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide”.

Srila Prabhupada"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya.

Srila Prabhupada “FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT”.

Srila Prabhupada-"But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going.

Srila Prabhupada – “Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness".

Srila Prabhupada "Just like in a dreamwe are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only".

Srila Prabhupada "Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming conditionis called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second".

Srila Prabhupada"He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

Srila Prabhupada - "So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he can go only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes BACK to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Bhativinode Thakur“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

Srila Prabhupada- “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada-“Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming statedue to our non-Krishna conscious choices”.

In this dreaming state, after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu, we forget our actual positionand thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is refering to our perpetual svarupa body),

We are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition that cannot stay in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva”.

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body. are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

This seconday (conditioned) extension of the nitya-siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada:“Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!”

Srila Prabhupada- “He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation”.

theist · May 14, 2007

Without getting into this debate I would like to comment on the challenge to show where in the past acaryas have said a certain thing and the implication is that if one cannot do that then the thing being proposed in bogus.

I disagree with this idea. I believe in continuous revelation. If not then where is madhurya rasa in the Rig or any other veda? It may be there as I don't know the veda but I have heard from others that it is not.

As God consciousness is not subject to mental speculation it is also not stagnent. The key word is revelation.

Another question is when are the participants going to be willing to accept Srila Prabhupada's admonition that this subject is not worth debate. The answer will come to each one of us as personal revelation in due course. Not one of you will convince the other by this word manipulation.

muralidhar_das · May 14, 2007

Theist

Perhaps Srila Prabhupada said to his disciples not to discuss this point but this point has been elaborately discussed by other acharyas.

And what about people like me who are not even disciples of Srila Prabhupada?

Sri Jiva Goswami and Srila Sanatana Goswami both taught that jiva souls arise from Brahman.

Anadi-siddha souls can enter Vaikuntha or enter Maya. The word "anadi-siddha" or in other words "unborn siddha souls" is Sanatana's word he uses to describe souls who are eternally existing within formless Brahman. If they do not adore Brahman but instead think they are ONE or EQUAL with Brahman they can fall down. This is the teaching of the Goswamis.

My Guru told me the same thing, and I've read it in the writings of Srila Prabhupada too. People like Vigraha and Suhotra das who say that the Vrajabashis, the Gopas and Gopis, those Great Souls sometimes choose to forget Krishna and choose to go to hell to enjoy some physical enjoyment, those people are promoting nonsense ideas that are pure ignorance.

Sarva gattah · May 14, 2007

Without getting into this debate I would like to comment on the challenge to show where in the past acaryas have said a certain thing and the implication is that if one cannot do that then the thing being proposed in bogus.

I disagree with this idea. I believe in continuous revelation. If not then where is madhurya rasa in the Rig or any other veda? It may be there as I don't know the veda but I have heard from others that it is not.

As God consciousness is not subject to mental speculation it is also not stagnent. The key word is revelation.

Another question is when are the participants going to be willing to accept Srila Prabhupada's admonition that this subject is not worth debate. The answer will come to each one of us as personal revelation in due course. Not one of you will convince the other by this word manipulation.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Theist prabhu it is true what you say but the inherent inquisitive nature in all of us to understand the origins of the universe will not go away for many.

Many of my ISKCON Godbrothers and Sisters will not get involved in this argument because they already accept what Srila Prabhupada has said. And that is we all have a svarupa body already.

I know Hridayananda Swami preaches this point very clearly and tells us to avoid arguing with those other Gaudiya Vaishnava camps who persistently and absurdly insist we originate from the Brahmajyoti.

I believe Vigraha and many others have had some partial realization of what Srila Prabhupada has said about our eternal Svarupa form in Vaikuntha.

India is full of gurus and arrogant caste brahmanas who mostly read only speculated translations of previous Acharayas and Vedic texts with their dubious English version of interpretation of those Sanskrit, Bengali and Hindi texts that has been subtly influence by Impersonalism over hundreds and hundreds of years, undermining Krishnas Personal creation of marginal persons, claiming they believe and can prove their nonsense impersonal tatastha origins of the jiva-consciousness.

Any guru, sannyasi or general devotee in Navadwip or anywhere else around the world who preaches this Impersonal origin nonsense is misleading people away from the personal genuine teachings of Vaisnavism as taught by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

We must understand what personalism is; we must understand that Krishna’s creation is personal which means we are all persons with eternal svarupa bodies as well without beginning or end.

Just as Krishna is a perpetual bodily Vigraha form, so are all His marginal emanations however, Krishna is always master, and his marginal nitya-siddha svarupa devotees are always His eternal servants.

Srila Prabhupada “Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”. Gita introduction

Srila Prabhupada – “Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa”. Gita introduction

Srila Prabhupada – “By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi -- perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship”. Gita introduction

Many Gaudiya Vaisnavas gurus have all become polluted with Impersonalism that deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation by foolishly and hysterically claiming the soul originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

I don't think you have to be a pure devotee to know how the material feature of creation works, Hiranyakasipunew exactly how the three worlds in material creation worked, he even new there was a Vaikuntha but he wanted to conquer that eternal place.

That’s where his knowledge lacked proper Krishna Consciousness, he was Krishna conscious, but he hated Krishna, however, as we all knowHiranyakasipuwas only a bodily form or post within the material creation (mahat-tattva)

The inhabitant of that bodyor postfell down from his eternal body in Vaikuntha and was provided that vessel by Maha-Vishnu. As we all know, Maha-Vishnu provides all of the material (ethereal and biological) for all those who consciously leave their svarupa body on Vaikuntha as Jaya and Vijaya did.

Srila Prabhupada Speaks about his Gaudiya Math Godbrothers

The following reasons is why many Iskcon devotees will not bother arguing with other ‘Gaudiya camps”.

This is not meant to be used in an arrogant dictatorial way as some have done so in the past, it is meant to show how Srila Prabhupada never approved that his followers read the books of other Gaudiya God brothers or God newphews.

While they sat back in their uneventful temples in Navadwip Srila Prabhupada took Krishna and Lord Caitanya to every town and Village around the world.

Srila Prabhupada's -"Regarding the Gaudiya Math books being circulated there, who is distributing? Who is sending these books? The Gaudiya Math does not sell our books, why we should sell their books.

Srila Prabhupada - "Who has introduced these books? Let me know. These books should not at all be circulated in our Society. Bhakti Vilas Tirtha is very much antagonistic to our society and he has no clear conception of devotional service. He is contaminated".

Srila Prabhupada - Anyway, who has introduced these books? You say that you would read only one book if that was all that I had written, so you teach others to do like that. You have very good determination." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Sukadeva 11/14/73:

Srila Prabhupada -"Disturbance is caused by ignorance; where there is no ignorance, there is no disturbance. The four Sannyasis may bark, but still the caravan will pass. There is every evidence that they are influenced by some of my fourth-class Godbrothers." Letter to Hayagriva 9/14/70:

Srila Prabhupada -"Regarding the Gaudiya Math, our position has nothing to do with them. They cannot do anything and if somebody does something, they will be envious. That is the nature of third class men." Letter to Yamuna 11/18/70:

Srila Prabhupada - "Do not be depressed. All along my godbrothers gave me only depression, repression, compression--but I continued strong in my duty. So never mind there is some discouragement, continue with your work in full enthusiastic Krishna Consciousness attitude of service." Letter to Gurudasa 8/29/72:

Srila Prabhupada - "Our big, big godbrothers in India, they could not preach Lord Gauranga's name all over India. They are simply inclined to criticize me, that my students call me Prabhupada. They could not do anything practical and tangible. They are satisfied with a temple and a few disciples begging alms for the maintenance of the temple”. Letter to Niranjana 5/21/73:

Srila Prabhupada - "So, we can understand that they have all become sudras. How can they have interest in Bhagavad-gita. Although some of them have been born in brahmana families, but by quality are all sudras." Letter to Niranjana 5/21/73:

Srila Prabhupada - "In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. ." Letter to Rupanuga 4/28/74

Srila Prabhupada - “They, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja, made this attempt previously but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them." Letter to Rupanuga 4/28/74:

Srila Prabhupada – “He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya”

Srila Prabhupada - "You should not write anything to Madhava Maharaja's camp. You may have talked many things with Mangala Niloy but why write him in black and white. The letter must not be sent. Their policy has been all along to suppress me and take credit for himself. Their proposal for cooperation is a myth. They haven't done anything that is cooperative. You know in a recent article they managed to write in such a way that Madhava is doing the world movement and we are his subordinates. From the beginning that has been their mentality. ." Letter to Acutananda 6/8/74:

Srila Prabhupada - “So there is no possibility of cooperation with them. Rather you should avoid strictly meeting with them. They are not after preaching but material gain and reputation and adoration. Otherwise why they are non cooperating with me? So no cooperation is possible. Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Letter to Acutananda 6/8/74:

Srila Prabhupada - "Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us. If anything thing has to be done it is to be talked on the higher level between Madhava Maharaja and myself, but I know his mentality is different and there is no possibility of cooperation." Letter to Acutananda 6/8/74:

Srila Prabhupada - "In India some of the important members they have collected huge amounts in the name of the Society and spent it luxuriously. I wanted you all my experienced disciples should manage the whole institution very cleverly without any personal ambition like ordinary materialistic men. The Gaudiya Math institution has become smashed, at least stopped its program of preaching work on account of personal ambitions." Letter to Karandhara 10/8/74

Srila Prabhupada - "Krsna sakti vina nahe krsna name pracara: 'Without Krsna's special power of attorney, nobody can preach His name.' Caitanya-caritamrta. So these rascals, Godbrothers, they are envious that... What he has written? Bon Maharaja. Just see what kind of men they are”.

Srila Prabhupada - “They are not even ordinary human being. They are envious of me, and what to speak of make a judgment by estimation? They're envious. Enviousness is immediately disqualification of Vaisnava, immediate. He is not a human being. Paramo nirmatsaranam satam. This Bhagavatam is meant for the person who is completely not envious. That is the beginning”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Why a Vaisnava should be envious for anyone? Everyone is working according to his karma. He is trying to rectify him, that 'Be out of these clutches of karma. You come to bhakti.' Why he should be envious? Vancha-kalpatarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eva ca. A Vaisnava should be like ocean of mercy to reclaim the fallen souls. That is Vaisnava's qualification”. .- Room Conversation with a Reporter in Johannesburg 10/16/75:

Srila Prabhupada - “So Vaisnava should be envious? Just see. So these persons, they are not even human being, what to speak of Vaisnava. Vaisnava cannot be envious. Vaisnava should be: 'Oh, my Lord's name is being broadcast. He is getting, giving so much service to make Krsna known.' That man has appreciated, that 'All these spiritual leaders, they are deriding. You are the only man... You are... It enthuses us, give us more encouragement, that you are keeping intact, love of Krsna.' This is an appreciation”. .- Room Conversation with a Reporter in Johannesburg 10/16/75:

Srila Prabhupada - “Why he should be envious? He should be, rather, very much enthused that 'This single man is keeping Krsna all over the world.' And everyone is deriding. Even Gandhi is killing Krsna. Dr. Radhakrishnan is killing. Their only business is to kill Krsna. He is also doing that, our, this Bon Maharaja. He never speaks of Krsna. His rascal, that Institute of Indian Philosophy, nobody goes to [pass] urine there”. .- Room Conversation with a Reporter in Johannesburg 10/16/75:

Srila Prabhupada - “We see practically. And our temple is always filled up, five hundred men. And he is trying for the last forty years. He is simply planning: 'This will be playground. This will be this ground. This will be this ground.' And it is becoming jungle. Still, he is so envious, black snake”. .- Room Conversation with a Reporter in Johannesburg 10/16/75:

Srila Prabhupada - “So one circular letter should be issued to all our center, that 'Any Bon Maharaja or anyone, his representative, should not be received.' They are envious. Yes. Quoting that. We have got several complaints like that. Satsvarupa also complained. Sometimes our order was cancelled by Bon Maharaja's propaganda." .- Room Conversation with a Reporter in Johannesburg 10/16/75:

Srila Prabhupada - "So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of my godbrothers. They should not have any dealings with them nor even correspondence, nor should they give them any of my books or should they purchase any of their books, neither should you visit any of their temples. Please avoid them." Letter to Visvakarma, 11/9/75:

Srila Prabhupada – "There are similarly men also. Unnecessarily they are envious, offensive, unnecessary. They cannot tolerate others' opulence. Just like our Godbrothers. They are envious. What I have done to them? I am doing my business, trying to serve my Guru Maharaja. But they are envious because I am so opulent. I have got so much fame, so many influences, so much influence all over the world. Everyone is praising me about... That is ignorance. “Room Conversation in Bombay 1/8/77:

Srila Prabhupada - And this is regrettable because they are posing themselves as Vaisnava. Ordinary man can do that, but they are dressing like Vaisnava, and they are so envious. That Tirtha Maharaja, unnecessarily he was envious, whole life fighting, fighting, fighting in the court and died. Simply planning." Room Conversation in Bombay 1/8/77:

Srila Prabhupada - "If somebody thinks, 'Oh, here is a snake with jewel. Let me embrace him, no, no, no, it is very ferocious. Even it is jewel there, it is ferocious. Similarly, these people are envious. Although they have become so-called Vaisnava, they are ferocious.

Srila Prabhupada - They (godbrothers and god newphews) have not acquired the qualification of Vaisnava. Simply vesopidin(?), by dress." Room Conversation in Vrindaban 5/24/77

Srila Prabhupada's - "[Krishna consciousness] is simple for the simple, but it is very hard for the crooked." (Initiation lecture by - Boston

12/26/69)

Srila Prabhupada - “FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT”.

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