Supersoul Super-thread, All things Supersoul

[theist 1]

Dedicated to answering this essential question that complexity posed on the essence thread.

 

complexity: How do you actually change yourself to feel or perceive the Supersoul in every living being?

 

His question and the answers will dwarf the essence thread itself and is deserving of it's own dedicated thread.

 

Please keep all posts decicated directly to answering his question and glorifying the Lord in the heart.

 

I will open with this from the Gita.

 

: To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.

: To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

[Beggar 0]

 

complexity: How do you actually change yourself to feel or perceive the Supersoul in every living being?

 

 

How do you actually change yourself...?

 

You don't. Practice sadhana bhakti, serve guru and vaisnavas and beg for their mercy to become transformed to become a proper instrument of divine service.

 

 

... to feel or perceive the Supersoul in every living being?

 

If one knows that that the Lord partially manifests as Brahman and more fully as Paramatma and completely as Bhagavan, especially Bhagavan Sri Krsna then why would one want to focus on Paramatma?

Krsna says in the Bhagavad Gita:

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māḿ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi satyaḿ te

pratijāne priyo 'si me

 

Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

 

He says "become My devotee". He doesn't say become a devotee of my partial manifestation as paramatma. By just a spark of His, Krsna's splendor he supports and maintains these entire universes. That "spark of His splendor" is just a part of a part of a part of Him.

 

I think the real question is: Why do we find some practitioners in formal and informal ISKCON laboring under such misconceptions? We certainly don't find these type of apasiddhantic ideas in Gaudiya Math or it's sub-branches, at least not this type.

[Guest guest]

"If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

 

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

- Gospel of Thomas, Saying 3

[theist 1]

Nice.

[Guest guest]

How many roads must a man walk down

Before you call him a man?

Yes, 'n' how many seas must a white dove sail

Before she sleeps in the sand?

Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly

Before they're forever banned?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,

The answer is blowin' in the wind.

 

How many times must a man look up

Before he can see the sky?

Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have

Before he can hear people cry?

Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows

That too many people have died?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,

The answer is blowin' in the wind.

 

How many years can a mountain exist

Before it's washed to the sea?

Yes, 'n' how many years can some people exist

Before they're allowed to be free?

Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head,

Pretending he just doesn't see?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,

The answer is blowin' in the wind.

Bob Dylan

[mahak 0]

And Im writing songs anyway, and the season is almost here, this song should be on this thread:

 

<center>Winter Moon c 1995-mahaksadasa</center>

The winds from the North bring another storm.

Be another month before the season starts to warm.

Looking to the cold clear full-moon night

Nityananda moon rise coming into sight

Playing hide-and-seek with another winter cloud.

Casting mystic shodows on this earthly shroud

Waking all the sleeping souls floundering along

Reminding us to sing Harinama, sing the holy song. Why You came, I'll never know, You came into my heart.

You raised me from the dead, You give me brand new start.

In my darkest hours, You have always appeared,

Armed to help me battle all my greatest fears.

Harinama fills the air, sacred chanting everywhere,

Children wave their arms like they just don't care.

We can truely live in Vana when we dance with God's Own,

Leave behind all worries because we'll never be alone.

Govinda's kingdom come, and we know His will be done,

So we dance and sing His Name all the way til dawn.

The confusion of this world always seems to slip away,

When Sri Harinama is the start of every day.

So I beg of You, O Lord, let me never forget.

I surely know I am deepest in Your debt.

The sound of Your Name rocks me to and fro.

JAYA JAYA NITYANANDA, HARIBOL.

[theist 1]

BG 10.31: Of purifiers I am the wind, of the wielders of weapons I am Rama, of fishes I am the shark, and of flowing rivers I am the Ganges.

 

Not only is Krsna blowing in the wind He IS the wind as well.

[theist 1]

 

And Im writing songs anyway, and the season is almost here, this song should be on this thread:

 

<center>Winter Moon c 1995-mahaksadasa</center>

The winds from the North bring another storm.

Be another month before the season starts to warm.

Looking to the cold clear full-moon night

Nityananda moon rise coming into sight

Playing hide-and-seek with another winter cloud.

Casting mystic shodows on this earthly shroud

Waking all the sleeping souls floundering along

Reminding us to sing Harinama, sing the holy song. Why You came, I'll never know, You came into my heart.

You raised me from the dead, You give me brand new start.

In my darkest hours, You have always appeared,

Armed to help me battle all my greatest fears.

Harinama fills the air, sacred chanting everywhere,

Children wave their arms like they just don't care.

We can truely live in Vana when we dance with God's Own,

Leave behind all worries because we'll never be alone.

Govinda's kingdom come, and we know His will be done,

So we dance and sing His Name all the way til dawn.

The confusion of this world always seems to slip away,

When Sri Harinama is the start of every day.

So I beg of You, O Lord, let me never forget.

I surely know I am deepest in Your debt.

The sound of Your Name rocks me to and fro.

JAYA JAYA NITYANANDA, HARIBOL.

 

You post this ever so often Mahaksa and it is always a pleasure to read.

[Guest guest]

 

You don't. Practice sadhana bhakti, serve guru and vaisnavas and beg for their mercy to become transformed to become a proper instrument of divine service.

 

If one knows that that the Lord partially manifests as Brahman and more fully as Paramatma and completely as Bhagavan, especially Bhagavan Sri Krsna then why would one want to focus on Paramatma?

 

....

 

We certainly don't find these type of apasiddhantic ideas in Gaudiya Math or it's sub-branches, at least not this type.

 

kenapi devena hrdi sthitena

yatha niyukto 'smi tatha karomi

 

Hypocrisy cannot show its face in the light of such a heart's revelation -

"As I am engaged by a Deity within my heart, so do I act."

Gautamiya Tantra

 

(quoted by Srila Sridhar Maharaj and included as verse 7.7 of his book Sri Sri Prappana Jivanamrtam.

[Guest guest]

 

kenapi devena hrdi sthitena

yatha niyukto 'smi tatha karomi

 

Hypocrisy cannot show its face in the light of such a heart's revelation -

"As I am engaged by a Deity within my heart, so do I act."

Gautamiya Tantra

 

(quoted by Srila Sridhar Maharaj and included as verse 7.7 of his book Sri Sri Prappana Jivanamrtam.

That just went right over my head. Please clarify.

[Guest guest]

 

If one knows that that the Lord partially manifests as Brahman and more fully as Paramatma and completely as Bhagavan, especially Bhagavan Sri Krsna then why would one want to focus on Paramatma?

 

We certainly don't find these type of apasiddhantic ideas in Gaudiya Math or it's sub-branches, at least not this type.

 

 

"As I am engaged by a Deity within my heart, so do I act."

Gautamiya Tantra

 

 

(verse is quoted by Srila Sridhar Maharaj and included as verse 7.7 of his book Sri Sri Prappana Jivanamrtam.

[Beggar 0]

 

kenapi devena hrdi sthitena

yatha niyukto 'smi tatha karomi

 

Hypocrisy cannot show its face in the light of such a heart's revelation -

"As I am engaged by a Deity within my heart, so do I act."

Gautamiya Tantra

 

(quoted by Srila Sridhar Maharaj and included as verse 7.7 of his book Sri Sri Prappana Jivanamrtam.

 

 

(verse is quoted by Srila Sridhar Maharaj and included as verse 7.7 of his book Sri Sri Prappana Jivanamrtam.

 

Chapter 7 is titled, "Full Self-surrender". The next verse is:

 

govindam vina tatra sarvvatmana nanya-bhavah----

govindam parmanandam, mukundam madhusudana

tyavanyam vai janani, na bhajami smarami na [8]

Sri-Vyasapadanam

 

Within such surrender there is no other conception but Govinda in every thought, word, and deed---

I know, worship, and remember no one but the Lord Paramananda, Mukunda, Madhusudana, Govinda.

---Sri Vyasadeva

[gHari 0]

To see the Supersoul in every living entity's heart, first we must see Him in our own hearts.

 

Supersoul: "Remember Me. I will take you to Krsna. You will be with Me when you are not attached".

[theist 1]

 

If one knows that that the Lord partially manifests as Brahman and more fully as Paramatma and completely as Bhagavan, especially Bhagavan Sri Krsna then why would one want to focus on Paramatma?

 

Because there is no jumping over or sidestepping Caitya guru. Think of the guru portion of Caitya guru for a moment. He is the only guru there is. If there is another bone fide empowered soul representing Him then we should be hearing the Supersoul through him and that that soul should then be rspected and even worshipped as an external manifestation of Supersoul Himself.

 

That is called accepting guru. By advocating ignoring Supersoul because there is a higher more intimate Form of the Supreme Person is exactly advocating advocating ignoring guru to concentrate on Syamasundar. This will never be successful. Guru is not an option but an imperative. Now some rare advanced souls may be in direct one to one contact with the Lord in the heart on an unbroken basis but that is not most of us nor is it what I am advocating. That would also be another form of sahajism as I understand the word. Taken things cheaply. Does it make sense to accept Krsna in the natural world of wind, water, sound, fire and ignore Him in the instructions of His representative? Of course not. And again if we are hearing from Caitya-guru's actual representative and not hearing hearing Caitya guru's voice that means we are not really hearing guru at all. It's just a show.

 

You don't see that by focusing on Supersoul we are actually focusing on guru. You are thinking there is some competition between Syamasudar and Paramatma. And that is a big mistake. Paramatma is the one who reveals Himself as Syamsundar when the devotee is advanced enough.

 

By all means focus on Syamsundar when you chant. I read Krsna book. And if I happen to receive spiritual understanding from it I understand that it is Caitya guru revealing it to me, in this case externally through the writing of Srila Prabhupada and internally as the Lord in the heart who allows me to understand what He is saying in His empowered form as Srila Prabhupada writing Krsna book.

 

Caitya guru, His representative and Sri Bhagavan are not three separate beings with three separate self interests. They are one and different. And are working as one to deliver the fallen souls. We must remember and appreciate that Paramatma is Krsna's expansion. While He plays in yoga-maya with His devotees as Krsna He is simultaneously working with the fallen souls as Paramatma.

 

Srila Prabhupada not only gave the West Krsna book and CC but also Sri Isopanishad, Bhagavad-gita and the nine cantos of Srimad Bhagvatam that lead up to Krsna-lila and although he said it is sweet wherever we taste it he stressed a systematic study of his books leading up to Krsna-lila. And by study I understand that as meaning a progressive series of realizations that lead up to Krsna-lila.

 

Krsna consciousness comes through our going through deep changes in our heart. This CANNOT be faked. To do so is is willfull self deception on our part and viloence to those we manage to bluff.

 

If someone cannot recognize Krsna as the light of the sun and the taste of water then and/or speaks dispargingly of this level of realization without even have obtained it himself then I will certainly avoid hearing anything he has to say about Krsna consciousness in general and the relationship between Radha and Krsna specifically because he is simply a bluffer. He huffs and he puffs and he bluffs all day long but he can never give blow down the wall of maya that entraps us and give anyone Krsna.

 

This is the mentality that brought the zonal acarya disaster onto us. But if we are a little introspective and honest we will see that we are also huffers, puffers and bluffers but just on a much smaller scale. Sad to say I believe this attitude is the prevailing one in the devotee community today and is a major stumbling block on the path to true Krsna consciousness. We want and expect Radha/Krsna to come as cheaply as memorizing some teaching of someone we consider to be rasacarya or any empowered preacher.

 

I have met the sahaji and the sahaji is me.

 

I am not suggesting that higher topics are taboo but only we must be realistic about our own level of realization or lack thereof. First necessity to proceed further is the realization of sambanda-jnana. Not head knowledge of sambanda-jnana but realization.

 

May the Lord in the heart be so gracious as to impart this understanding unto us.

[Guest guest]

Remember Me at the Lotus Feet

From the Vintage Darsana Series

Mathura - July 1992

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

[The following is a transcription of excerpts of a darsana in July, 1992, in Mathura, India.]

[Question:] How can we see our Prabhupada? Should we meditate on the ways he is serving Radhika, who he is, and what he does in the spiritual abode? Or, how can we think of him?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] First you should remember the form you saw. In that very form he is serving Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Nityananda Prabhu in such a good way. You should see how he is serving them.

[Question:] Preaching and establishing temples?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] And he is completing all orders given by Sriman Mahaprabhu to Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami. Mahaprabhu has given them four orders – to establish preaching centers and temples, to preach pure bhakti, to establish the Deities Madana Mohana, Govinda, Gopinatha and other Deities, to write books about bhakti, and to preach all over the world. They have done it, and now your Prabhupada is also doing all these things. As an associate of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu he is doing this, and Mahaprabhu is so pleased to see that he is doing all this service. You should first remember this, and then you can pray to him to help you see that he is serving Sri Sri Radha-Krsna.

[Question:] You can't tell us any specific ways he is serving?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] You should see that in that form he is a very good palya-dasi of Sri Rupa-manjari, and obeying her orders. Your guru-sakhi is serving in so many ways. You can understand how he is serving by this prayer:

sri-radhika-madhavayor apara-

madhurya-lila-guna-rupa-namnam

prati-ksanasvadana-lolupasya

vande guroh sri caranaravindam

[“At every moment Sri Gurudeva is experiencing intense greed in his heart to taste the unlimited sweetness of the holy names, forms, qualities, and pastimes of Sri Sri Radha-Madhava in Vrndavana. I offer my prayers unto the lotus feet of Sri Gurudeva.” (Sri Guruvastakam, verse 5)]

nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai

ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya

tatrati-daksyad ati-vallabhasya

vande guroh sri-caranaravindam

["The spiritual master is very dear because he is expert in assisting the gopis, who at different times make different tasteful arrangements for the perfection of Radha and Krsna's conjugal loving affairs within the groves of Vrndavana. I offer my most humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of such a spiritual master. (Verse 7)

You can apply these prayers to what I have previously told you.

[Question:] What are some prayers that would be applicable to glorify the disciplic succession if we want to advance to raganug-bhajana. Right now we say prayers like, “namo bhaktivodaya saccidananda namine . . .” But what prayers should we do if we want to enter Vraja-bhakti?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] “gaura sakti svarupaya rupanuga varaye te.” Yes, this is a very good sloka

[Question:] So we should continue saying them?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Yes, and there are so many other appropriate prayers.

om ajnana timirandhasya

jnananjana salakaya

caksur unmilitam yena

tasmai sri guruve namah.

[“O Gurudeva, you are so merciful. I offer my humble pranama to you and am praying from the core of my heart that, with the torchlight of divine knowledge, you open my eyes which have been blinded by the darkness of ignorance.” (Sri Guru pranama)]

This is a very, very good verse, and it has so many meanings, which are understood according to qualification of the devotee uttering it. "Om ajnana timirandhasya," What is the meaning of “ajnana”?

[Question:] Ignorance.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] How much ignorance?

[Question:] Complete?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] For those who are totally in maya, material illusion – those who are not even sadhakas (they who performs devotional service with an ardent desire to attain Vraja-bhakti and its transcendental emotions) – ajnana is of one kind. Another devotee has sraddha, faith in the words of Krsna, Guru and Vaisnavas, and is performing vaidhi-bhakti, regulative devotional service. His Guru has now opened his eyes and given him some taste in raganuga-bhakti. His former lack of knowledge of this is also in the category of ignorance.

That devotee knows how Giriraja Govardhana, Yamuna, Vrndavana and Seva-kunja serve Sri Sri Radha and Sri Krsna, and he has ambition to be under their shelter. All of these ambitions have come from Sri Gurudeva, who has given some taste for raganuga-bhakti.

premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena

santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti

yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

[“I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord who is Syamasundara Krsna Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.” (Brahma Samhita 538)]

Another devotee has developed to the stage of bhava-bhakti, wherein the seed of transcendental emotions have manifest. He will pray to his Gurudeva and to Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha das Gosvami: “I am developing love for Lord Krsna by the grace of Gurudeva. He has opened my eyes by “jnananjana salakaya” and “premajnana salakaya”, the ointment of transcendental knowledge and love. I bow down to Sri Guru.” After that, one can see his Gurudeva as a palya dasi (maidservant) of Sri Rupa-manjari, and under the guidance of Rupa manjari she is serving Srimati Radharani. So I bow down to this Guru.” There are so many prayers like this, and one who is qualified can be absorbed in such prayers.

If you go one step towards Gurudeva and Krsna, They will come two steps towards you. First begin, and then see how everything is progressing easily.

[Question:] How can we see the Guru as palya-dasi without being sahajiya (those who take devotional service cheaply, imagine themselves advanced, and imagine they are seeing the spiritual world)?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] You should read, and know by practice, scriptures like Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Also read Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami’s Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, especially where he has discussed the dialogue between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Raya Ramananda. Therein it is stated:

sakhi vina ei lilaya anyera nahi gati

sakhi-bhave ye tanre kare anugati

radha-krsna-kunjaseva-sadhya sei paya

sei sadhya paite ara nahika upaya

[“Without the help of the gopis, one cannot enter into these pastimes. Only one who worships the Lord in the ecstasy of the gopis, following in their footsteps, can engage in the service of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna in the bushes of Vrndavana. Only then can one understand the conjugal love between Radha and Krsna. There is no other procedure for understanding.” (Cc. Mad. 8.204-205)]

Without following the gopis we cannot progress an inch further in bhakti. We must eventually learn what are the gopis, who are the gopis, and how to become a gopi.

[Question:] I read a certain commentary on Vilapa-kusumanjali, wherein the translator says that the sadhaka can think that he is sitting at the feet of Rati-manjari, while Rati-manjari is serving Radhika. Can we picture ourselves like that or not?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] First you should know who is Rati-manjari and how to follow her. You should be situated on the platform that has been explained by Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami in Sri Manah Siksa. There should be no kama (lust), krodha (anger) – nothing like this – in your heart. Gradually, your love will grow towards harinama, your diksa-mantras, Vrndavana, the associates of Lord Krsna, the Vaisnavas, Radha-Krsna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Try to increase this love as explained in Manah-siksa. We should strictly follow the directions given by Raghunatha dasa Gosvami so that we will not become sahajiya. We should strictly follow Srila Rupa Gosvami's Upadesamrta, Nectar of Instruction, and we should also follow Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Jaiva-dharma. In this way we will not become sahajiya.

[Question:] So we shouldn't imagine ourselves sitting there?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] No; not at first. This comes after the platform has been made. There are so many stages to come to first. If you read Jaiva-dharma you will understand this. There are eleven kinds of bhavas or transcendental moods that begin to manifest at the stage of bhava-bhakti. We should follow all directives strictly; then gopi-bhava will manifest in our heart automatically. At that time we will be able to do all these things. We should pray for this time to come, and at the same time practice chanting more, hearing more, and doing more service under the guidance of Sri Gurudeva – so that our lust, anger, greed, offenses and anarthas (unwanted habits) will go away. There should be no attraction between ladies and men. And, we should be selfless.

[theist 1]

That's fine. But please..the topic is Supersoul.

[Beggar 0]

 

Caitya guru, His representative and Sri Bhagavan are not three separate beings with three separate self interests. They are one and different. And are working as one to deliver the fallen souls. We must remember and appreciate that Paramatma is Krsna's expansion. While He plays in yoga-maya with His devotees as Krsna He is simultaneously working with the fallen souls as Paramatma.

 

Srila Prabhupada not only gave the West Krsna book and CC but also Sri Isopanishad, Bhagavad-gita and the nine cantos of Srimad Bhagvatam that lead up to Krsna-lila and although he said it is sweet wherever we taste it he stressed a systematic study of his books leading up to Krsna-lila. And by study I understand that as meaning a progressive series of realizations that lead up to Krsna-lila.

 

Krsna consciousness comes through our going through deep changes in our heart. This CANNOT be faked. To do so is is willfull self deception on our part and viloence to those we manage to bluff.

 

 

While He plays in yoga-maya with His devotees as Krsna He is simultaneously working with the fallen souls as Paramatma.

Those in contact with a guru like Srila Prabhupada or Srila Sridhar Maharaja understand that he is in their hearts as Paramatma or Caitya Guru. But they don't meditate on the four handed form of the Lord.

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 11.51

arjuna uvāca

dṛṣṭvedaḿ mānuṣaḿ rūpaḿ

tava saumyaḿ janārdana

idānīm asmi saḿvṛttaḥ

sa-cetāḥ prakṛtiḿ gataḥ

 

TRANSLATION

When Arjuna thus saw Kṛṣṇa in His original form, he said: O Janārdana, seeing this humanlike form, so very beautiful, I am now composed in mind, and I am restored to my original nature.

PURPORT

Here the words mānuṣaḿ rūpam clearly indicate the Supreme Personality of Godhead to be originally two-handed. Those who deride Kṛṣṇa as if He were an ordinary person are shown here to be ignorant of His divine nature. If Kṛṣṇa is like an ordinary human being, then how is it possible for Him to show the universal form and again to show the four-handed Nārāyaṇa form? So it is very clearly stated in Bhagavad-gītā that one who thinks that Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary person and who misguides the reader by claiming that it is the impersonal Brahman within Kṛṣṇa speaking is doing the greatest injustice. Kṛṣṇa has actually shown His universal form and His four-handed Viṣṇu form. So how can He be an ordinary human being? A pure devotee is not confused by misguiding commentaries on Bhagavad-gītā because he knows what is what. The original verses of Bhagavad-gītā are as clear as the sun; they do not require lamplight from foolish commentators.

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 11.52

 

śrī-bhagavān uvāca

su-durdarśam idaḿ rūpaḿ

dṛṣṭavān asi yan mama

devā apy asya rūpasya

nityaḿ darśana-kāńkṣiṇaḥ

 

TRANSLATION

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very difficult to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see this form, which is so dear.

PURPORT

In the forty-eighth verse of this chapter Lord Kṛṣṇa concluded revealing His universal form and informed Arjuna that this form is not possible to be seen by so many pious activities, sacrifices, etc. Now here the word su-durdarśam is used, indicating that Kṛṣṇa's two-handed form is still more confidential. One may be able to see the universal form of Kṛṣṇa by adding a little tinge of devotional service to various activities like penances, Vedic study and philosophical speculation. It may be possible, but without a tinge of bhakti one cannot see; that has already been explained. Still, beyond that universal form, the form of Kṛṣṇa with two hands is still more difficult to see, even for demigods like Brahmā and Lord Śiva. They desire to see Him, and we have evidence in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that when He was supposed to be in the womb of His mother, Devakī, all the demigods from heaven came to see the marvel of Kṛṣṇa, and they offered nice prayers to the Lord, although He was not at that time visible to them. They waited to see Him. A foolish person may deride Him, thinking Him an ordinary person, and may offer respect not to Him but to the impersonal "something" within Him, but these are all nonsensical postures. Kṛṣṇa in His two-armed form is actually desired to be seen by demigods like Brahmā and Śiva.

In Bhagavad-gītā (9.11) it is also confirmed, avajānanti māḿ mūḍhā mānuṣīḿ tanum āśritaḥ: He is not visible to the foolish persons who deride Him. Kṛṣṇa's body, as confirmed by Brahma-saḿhitā and confirmed by Kṛṣṇa Himself in Bhagavad-gītā, is completely spiritual and full of bliss and eternality. His body is never like a material body. But for some who make a study of Kṛṣṇa by reading Bhagavad-gītā or similar Vedic scriptures, Kṛṣṇa is a problem. For one using a material process, Kṛṣṇa is considered to be a great historical personality and very learned philosopher, but He is an ordinary man, and even though He was so powerful He had to accept a material body. Ultimately they think that the Absolute Truth is impersonal; therefore they think that from His impersonal feature He assumed a personal feature attached to material nature. This is a materialistic calculation of the Supreme Lord. Another calculation is speculative. Those who are in search of knowledge also speculate on Kṛṣṇa and consider Him to be less important than the universal form of the Supreme. Thus some think that the universal form of Kṛṣṇa which was manifested to Arjuna is more important than His personal form. According to them, the personal form of the Supreme is something imaginary. They believe that in the ultimate issue, the Absolute Truth is not a person. But the transcendental process is described in Bhagavad-gītā, Chapter Four: to hear about Kṛṣṇa from authorities. That is the actual Vedic process, and those who are actually in the Vedic line hear about Kṛṣṇa from authority, and by repeated hearing about Him, Kṛṣṇa becomes dear. As we have several times discussed, Kṛṣṇa is covered by His yoga-māyā potency. He is not to be seen or revealed to anyone and everyone. Only by one to whom He reveals Himself can He be seen. This is confirmed in Vedic literature; for one who is a surrendered soul, the Absolute Truth can actually be understood. The transcendentalist, by continuous Kṛṣṇa consciousness and by devotional service to Kṛṣṇa, can have his spiritual eyes opened and can see Kṛṣṇa by revelation. Such a revelation is not possible even for the demigods; therefore it is difficult even for the demigods to understand Kṛṣṇa, and the advanced demigods are always in hope of seeing Kṛṣṇa in His two-handed form. The conclusion is that although to see the universal form of Kṛṣṇa is very, very difficult and not possible for anyone and everyone, it is still more difficult to understand His personal form as Śyāmasundara.

[Beggar 0]

 

Those in contact with a guru like Srila Prabhupada or Srila Sridhar Maharaja understand that he is in their hearts as Paramatma or Caitya Guru. But they don't meditate on the four handed form of the Lord.

 

If the opposite were true then new devotees would have a different temple room where there would be a diety of that Ksirodakasayi

Visnu who is the Supersoul of all living entities and the maintainer of all the universes.

 

yasyamsamsamsah paratmakhilanam

posta visnur bhati dugdhabdhi-sayi

ksauni-bharta yat-kala so 'py anantas

tam sri-nityananda-ramam prapadye

 

I offer my full obeisances unto the feet of Sri Nityananda Rama, whose

secondary part is the Visnu lying in the ocean of milk. That Ksirodakasayi

Visnu is the Supersoul of all living entities and the maintainer of all the

universe. Sesa Naga is His further sub-part. (Cc. Adi 1.11)

 

There is no need to separately meditate on Paramatma for by worshiping and meditating on Sri Nityananda Prabhu it is included.

 

ahankare matta hoiya, nitai-pada pasariya

asatyere satya kori mani

nitaiyer koruna habe, braje radha-krsna pabe

dharo nitai-carana du'khani

 

Being maddened after false prestige and identification with the body, one is thinking, Oh, what is Nityananda? What can He do for me? I don't care. The result is that he is accepting something false to be truth. If you actually want to approach the association of Radha-Krsna, you must first achieve the mercy of Lord Nityananda. When He is merciful toward you, then you will be able to approach Radha-Krsna. Therefore you should firmly grasp the lotus feet of Lord Nityananda.

Verse 3 Manah - Siksa by Srila Narottama das Thakur

Teachings to the Mind (from Prarthana)

Translation and purport by HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

From "Sri Guru and His Grace" by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Deva Goswami: "So, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has laid stress amongst the Westerners on devotion to Nityananda. First, we must get His mercy. And then, afterwards, we can get the mercy of Radha-Krsna. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu means Radha-Krsna (sri krsna caitanya radha-krsna nahe anya ). First achieve the mercy of Nityananda Prabhu, and then Gauranga Mahaprabhu, and then Sri Radha Govinda. In these three stages, we must raise ourselves up.Devotee: How does one attain the mercy of Lord Nityananda?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: One who finds more inclination to serve Gauranga and his dhama, his transcendental land, and his servants can get the mercy of Nityananda Prabhu. Nityananda is very much kind to one who has some special tendency towards Gaura lila.

 

"Take the Name of Gauranga"

 

Nityananda Prabhu walked from door to door in Bengal, saying, "Take the name of Gauranga! I'll become your servant. You can purchase me if you only take the name of Gauranga. I'll be sold to you without any price or condition." That was his temperament. When Mahaprabhu was in Puri, he sent Nityananda Prabhu to Bengal. At that time, he said, "Without you I don't find anyone who can spread the holy name of Krsna, or devotional service to Krsna, in Bengal. They are more engaged in the tantric method and the smrti. They make too much of these trifling things. They are puffed up, thinking that they have finished all knowledge. So, Bengal is a very hard field for preaching. Without you, no one will be able to awaken the masses. Separate yourself from the higher castes and approach the masses with the holy name of Krsna. You are the fittest person for this work."

 

Nityananda Prabhu went to Bengal, but without trying to preach the glories of the holy name of Krsna, Nityananda began to preach the name of Gauranga. Nityananda Prabhu found that there is some danger of thinking that Krsna's pastimes are very much akin to the mundane debauchery, lying, and stealing of a degraded soul. Krsna's pastimes are of a highly confidential nature. It is very difficult for the masses to understand the purity of krsna-lila. The mass mind cannot accept krsna-lila as the highest attainment. So, Nityananda Prabhu found it would be difficult to preach krsna-li1a, but he found it would be easy to preach gaura-lila, where Krsna has come to distribute himself to the public with so much capital in his mind. Gauranga means a dynamo which wants to distribute Krsna, surchared with the most magnanimous, intensified, pity and kindness for the ordinary people, with the greatest affection even for the criminals. Nityananda Prabhu wanted to bring them in connection with Gauranga, for then krsna-lila would automatically be within their fist. So, he began to preach about Gauranga, not Radha-Krsna, as commanded by Mahaprabhu. So, Nityananda Prabhu says, bhaja gauranga kaha gauranga, laha gauranga nama, "Worship Gauranga, speak only of Gauranga, and chant the name of Gauranga.""

[theist 1]

 

Those in contact with a guru like Srila Prabhupada or Srila Sridhar Maharaja understand that he is in their hearts as Paramatma or Caitya Guru. But they don't meditate on the four handed form of the Lord.

 

I question the level and depth of that understanding. It is known by everyone intellectually but I am not talking about an intellectual understanding. I am in fact talking against being satisifed with holding an only intellectually only unerstanding.

 

I am advocating and trying to practice the acceptance of Supersoul as the only Guru and revealer of Himself in whatever form that devotee is most drawn to. This applies to other sampradayas as well as GV and those of us who choose to not be formally affiliated.

 

I repeat this is not about some competition between the Syamasundar form and the the four handed Vishnu form in the heart. The four armed Vishnu form in the heart can also reveal Himself as Govinda. Then you have Govinda in your heart. But this will only occur according to our adhikara and His mercy.

 

So when I advocate approaching Supersoul I am advocating approaching Him as Guru. This doesn't exclude but rather includes His external expansions that walk among us today in the form of His purified devotees.

 

It just so happens that the One Guru is also God so He will reveal Himself as He is in all His manifold manifestations. For the majority this entails learning to appreciate His presence through external sense objects such as water and in fact all the universe as well as within our hearts and the hearts of all others. The Lord as Kapila explained that to worship Him in the temple while ignoring Him in other living beings can never please Him.

 

There will be some who have made sufficent progress in bhakti from past lives that they will be automatically attracted to more intimate forms of Krsna and won't concentrate on these aspects which occupy us. BUT NEITHER WILL THEY SPEND TIME TRYING TO KNOCK DOWN OTHERS DEVELOPING THOSE PRELIMINARY REALIZATIONS. Their rapture will be on their higher revelations and they will not permit themselves to be involved in such controversies such as two handed vs. four handed. Those that do involve themselves expose themselves as pretenders of the higher realms who presently have no solid position in either sphere of God conscious realization.

 

Sometimes I often chant with a picture of two handed Krsna before me to help me stay focused. I always choose the two-handed form as taught by Caitya guru in His external expansion of Srila Prabhupada. I only have one picture of Krsna on my walls and that is the tri banga banga form of entwined Radha Krsna. I don't understand why I am attracted to this picture over all others or even what Their lila means. That understanding will come much later for me but until then I am simply attracted.

 

I think if I can explain this to you in the proper words you will see that our differences may be only very slight and most likely we don't disagree on this point even in the slightest. I apologize for having failed to do so far.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist 1]

"The distinction between the jiva and the isvara will be explained in the Thirteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita. The Lord is kshetra-jna, conscious, as is the living being, but the living being is conscious of his particular body, whereas the Lord is conscious of all bodies. Because He lives in the heart of every living being, He is conscious of the psychic movements of the particular jivas. We should not forget this. It is also explained that the Paramatma, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is living in everyone's heart as isvara, as the controller, and that He is giving directions for the living entity to act as he desires." --Srila Prabhupada, excerpt from Bhagavad-gita introduction.

This understanding of the difference between the Supreme Soul and the minute soul is essential. Every living being we come across in our day to day lives is a comination of the two souls in each form.

To offer respects to the minute soul while ignoring the Supreme Soul is incomplete. As is offering respects to the Supreme Soul while ignoring the minute soul. The Lord states that to worship Him while ignoring the other jivas is not pleasing to Him.

Vaisnavism is about the union of the minute soul with the Supreme Soul and appreciatng the eternal relationship between them.

[theist 1]

SB 1.3.33: Whenever a person experiences, by self-realization, that both the gross and subtle bodies have nothing to do with the pure self, at that time he sees himself as well as the Lord.

 

SB 1.3.34: If the illusory energy subsides and the living entity becomes fully enriched with knowledge by the grace of the Lord, then he becomes at once enlightened with self-realization and thus becomes situated in his own glory.

 

SB 1.3.35: Thus learned men describe the births and activities of the unborn and inactive, which is undiscoverable even in the Vedic literatures. He is the Lord of the heart.

 

 

And it follows that when a soul realizes himself and the Lord he will also realize that all jivas are of this same truth.

[Beggar 0]

 

SB 1.3.35: Thus learned men describe the births and activities of the unborn and inactive, which is undiscoverable even in the Vedic literatures. He is the Lord of the heart.

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.35

 

 

evam janmani karmani

hy akartur ajanasya ca

varnayanti sma kavayo

veda-guhyani hrit-pateh

SYNONYMS

evam -- thus; janmani -- birth; karmani -- activities; hi -- certainly; akartuh -- of the inactive; ajanasya -- of the unborn; ca -- and; varnayanti -- describe; sma -- in the past; kavayah -- the learned; veda-guhyani -- undiscoverable by the Vedas; hrit-pateh -- of the Lord of the heart.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Thus learned men describe the births and activities of the unborn and inactive, which is undiscoverable even in the Vedic literatures. He is the Lord of the heart.

PURPORT

Both the Lord and the living entities are essentially all spiritual. Therefore both of them are eternal, and neither of them has birth and death. The difference is that the so-called births and disappearances of the Lord are unlike those of the living beings. The living beings who take birth and then again accept death are bound by the laws of material nature. But the so-called appearance and disappearance of the Lord are not actions of material nature, but are demonstrations of the internal potency of the Lord. They are described by the great sages for the purpose of self-realization. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita by the Lord that His so-called birth in the material world and His activities are all transcendental. And simply by meditation on such activities one can attain realization of Brahman and thus become liberated from material bondage. In the srutis it is said that the birthless appears to take birth. The Supreme has nothing to do, but because He is omnipotent, everything is performed by Him naturally, as if done automatically. As a matter of fact, the appearance and disappearance of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His different activities are all confidential, even to the Vedic literatures. Yet they are displayed by the Lord to bestow mercy upon the conditioned souls. We should always take advantage of the narrations of the activities of the Lord, which are meditations on Brahman in the most convenient and palatable form.

[theist 1]

Thank you beggar. My apologies if I misunderstood your CNN comment as Shakti-fan mentioned.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar 0]

Help I'm merging into CNN!

[theist 1]

Quick change the channel. Try Fox. ;-)