Is it more spiritual to fault find or see good qualities in others?

bhaktajan · June 16, 2008

To recieve chasticement directly from a sadhu or especially a Vaisnava is just like a Brahmin's curse --it is nectar that is un-equaled within all the material worlds. It is blessing in disguise. It is a test also of humility. It is special mercy. That is how I see it. It is a confidential rebuke to enlighten others behind you on the path.

Below is a story that happened to me, bhaktajan:

--

Long ago, in 1983, on the Dhama in West Virginia we were told not to make use of the re-cycled plastic yogurt cups that were used to transfer maha-prasadam to the prasadam hall. We were told to find our own dish/bowl and thus leave the cups on the transfer trays with the prasadam left out for the devotees’ consumption.

These store-brand-bowls had then been marked by the pujaris with the names of the deities.

In an adjacent room, two carpenters, Syamakunda & Cerentana were working. I entered the prasadam hall without a plate so I looked around and found a bowl that had been taken from the transfer tray and eaten from by one of the two carpenter devotee dudes.

This bowl was clearly marked as described above belonging to their Lordships. Since it had already been defiled by the workers, I took it and used it—and then exited afterward with the bowl lest it be returned to the deity kitchen. It was no longer useable by the deities.

Upon my return to the Utility Building while walking the hall I passed the great Mother Isani who upon seeing me so causally walking with a ‘cup newly marked as off-limits’, she passed by me indifferently and simultaneously: Slapped me across my face and also snatched the cup out of my hands and continued down the hall.

I then said the following to her, “Sorry Prabhu, thank you Mataji”.

June 16, 2008

Within the Swaminarayan Sampraday it is a great sin. It is said that avgun (bad attributes) if seen in others discard them and accept the Gunas (good attributes) only. Only a great saint or devotee can reprimand you and tell you to clean a bad quality. rest should take the good and discard all else.

Bishadi · June 16, 2008

Are we not all encouraged to be like the honey-bee that is constantly looking for the nectar in the field of wild flowers and NOT be like the house-fly that always looks for the stool in the dirty place???

then the contradiction

Only when you drink from the river of silence shall you indeed sing.

Observance to truth and observance to beliefs are what cause the divisions.

Beliefs must continually produce manifestations to describe with; truth lives in absolution.

representations that become contradictions, come from the pursuit of the self; seeing them is of the human experience.

Comprehending them is Godhead; honesty!

liselina · June 18, 2008

One who acts according to the time, place and the people is the wise. However, wise also knows that he acts only according to the material nature. Had Arjuna stopped fighting thinking that everyone is same and soul without finding the faults in the Kauravas, the history would have set a wrong example to the people..

When the time is to kill one has to kill for the good of all in genaral.. However fault finding for the selfish benifit isnt good....

Hari hari bol

Well then let's burn the witches and stone the heretics, gas the Jews and murder those with glasses, eat the rich and kill your television.

:eek: :crazy: :crazy2: :eek3: :eek2: NO NO NO NO NO NO! Well, maybe your television.

Coulds Arjuna's war have been figurative? Steeped in meaning or a literal story from a book?

So killing can be for the good of all in general!! Says Krishna? You condone this? I will not kill a fruit fly or eat a cow, but I can kill for the good of all when Krishna tells me? Very dangerous...

Makes me want to pray feverently.

Hare Krishna x 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Om shanti shanti shanti Om x 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Sarve bavantu tsukinah

Sarve shantu nira maya

Sarve vadra ni paschantu

Makaschit dukkavahk vavette

OM shanti, shanti, shanti OM

likely spelled wrong and translated to:

May all be happy

May all be healthy

May all see goodness

May there be no suffering

OM peace, peace, peace OM

P.S. Please forgive me for finding fault in the above quote and making such an outlandish offensive exaggerated statement in response. Peace.

Namaste

bhaktajan · June 18, 2008

Bhagvad-gita says: ...happy are the warriors to whom fighting opportunities come un-sought opening for them the doors of the heavenly ...

The US Marines says: Hurrah!

Do you hear their [uS Marines] chants?

If you don't hear them--then you do hear something, maybe you hear your 'peace of mind'--you're so fortunate, living without anxiety. Hurrah for you!

It would be so welcomed to read you're 'realizations' rather than our mutual frustrations.

Always quote sages of antiquity --since all human events are just repeated senarios [ala 'lazzis' from comedia-del-arte senerios, same 'Ole chewed-cud]--ie:

P.S. Please forgive me for finding fault in the above quote and making such an outlandish offensive exaggerated statement in response. Peace.

Bhaktajan

Amlesh · June 19, 2008

Well then let's burn the witches and stone the heretics, gas the Jews and murder those with glasses, eat the rich and kill your television.

NO NO NO NO NO NO! Well, maybe your television.

Coulds Arjuna's war have been figurative? Steeped in meaning or a literal story from a book?

So killing can be for the good of all in general!! Says Krishna? You condone this? I will not kill a fruit fly or eat a cow, but I can kill for the good of all when Krishna tells me? Very dangerous...

Makes me want to pray feverently.

Hare Krishna x 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Om shanti shanti shanti Om x 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Sarve bavantu tsukinah

Sarve shantu nira maya

Sarve vadra ni paschantu

Makaschit dukkavahk vavette

OM shanti, shanti, shanti OM

likely spelled wrong and translated to:

May all be happy

May all be healthy

May all see goodness

May there be no suffering

OM peace, peace, peace OM

P.S. Please forgive me for finding fault in the above quote and making such an outlandish offensive exaggerated statement in response. Peace.

Namaste

Lots of morality in appearance, but not really deep and wise in substance.

To follow the Bhakti marga, in short term basis and as it appears is a choice but the event that has been decided by Krishna, is inevitable, whether you agree or don't agree to carry on with the task.

Krishna says, "Rise above vice and virtue". What you have said is according to your calculation which might be infused with Vice or virtue or mixed. But what the divine has calculated is free from any vice and virtue.

To carry on with that calculation depends on your great fortune, which is opened to a very few.

And to know that Krishna is God or not is another issue.

If Theist or cBrahma wants to elaborate more on this, it will be our great fortune.

cbrahma · June 19, 2008

Well then let's burn the witches and stone the heretics, gas the Jews and murder those with glasses, eat the rich and kill your television.

NO NO NO NO NO NO! Well, maybe your television.

Coulds Arjuna's war have been figurative? Steeped in meaning or a literal story from a book?

So killing can be for the good of all in general!! Says Krishna? You condone this? I will not kill a fruit fly or eat a cow, but I can kill for the good of all when Krishna tells me? Very dangerous...

Makes me want to pray feverently.

Hare Krishna x 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Om shanti shanti shanti Om x 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Sarve bavantu tsukinah

Sarve shantu nira maya

Sarve vadra ni paschantu

Makaschit dukkavahk vavette

OM shanti, shanti, shanti OM

likely spelled wrong and translated to:

May all be happy

May all be healthy

May all see goodness

May there be no suffering

OM peace, peace, peace OM

P.S. Please forgive me for finding fault in the above quote and making such an outlandish offensive exaggerated statement in response. Peace.

Namaste

There are impersonalists who take the Gita as allegorical. God would not ask anybody to kill, they say. War is evil. How could God condone it? If you read the Gita, Arjuna is just as doubtful about killing as you. But Arjuna is a ksatrya - it is his duty.

Bhagavad-gita As It Is 2.11

sri-bhagavan uvaca

asocyan anvasocas tvam

prajna-vadams ca bhashase

gatasun agatasums ca

nanusocanti panditah

SYNONYMS

sri-bhagavan uvaca -- the Supreme Personality of Godhead said; asocyan -- not worthy of lamentation; anvasocah -- you are lamenting; tvam -- you; prajna-vadan -- learned talks; ca -- also; bhashase -- speaking; gata -- lost; asun -- life; agata -- not past; asun -- life; ca -- also; na -- never; anusocanti -- lament; panditah -- the learned.

TRANSLATION

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor for the dead.

PURPORT

The Lord at once took the position of the teacher and chastised the student, calling him, indirectly, a fool. The Lord said, "You are talking like a learned man, but you do not know that one who is learned -- one who knows what is body and what is soul -- does not lament for any stage of the body, neither in the living nor in the dead condition." As explained in later chapters, it will be clear that knowledge means to know matter and spirit and the controller of both. Arjuna argued that religious principles should be given more importance than politics or sociology, but he did not know that knowledge of matter, soul and the Supreme is even more important than religious formularies. And because he was lacking in that knowledge, he should not have posed himself as a very learned man. As he did not happen to be a very learned man, he was consequently lamenting for something which was unworthy of lamentation. The body is born and is destined to be vanquished today or tomorrow; therefore the body is not as important as the soul. One who knows this is actually learned, and for him there is no cause for lamentation, regardless of the condition of the material body.

Amlesh · June 19, 2008

Thanks cBrahma. It is that only that I wanted to point out. And you are the best in quoting the appropriate thing at the appropriate time and circumstance.

liselina · June 20, 2008

Thank you cbrahma, Amlesh, bhaktajan (pokemon :-),

As you can probably tell I am not of any one faith. I do believe in one Divine Creator Lord of all the Universe. Multiple faiths would argue about the name and specifique attributes of such a Lord, but I will not. I am greatly enjoying this forum as a place to learn, reflect and exchange ideas.

Amlesh, I would like to thank you for quoting the GITA. In particular the last two sentences. This truth is absolute:

"The body is born and is destined to be vanquished today or tommorrow; therefore the body is not as important as the soul. One who knows this is actually learned, and for him there is no cause for lamentation, regardless of the condition of the material body."

This for me causes no reaction. It is a fact. What does cause my fear to react is when people claim that they kill in the name of God. Or worse because God told them in this instance it is ok. Facism in all its forms be it US, Nazi, or whatever often has tentacles that go out into religion. It can find texts and passages to substantiate it's position. No problem.

I do not claim to be wise or "learned" or to know the answers. That being said I do have opinions. And in my heart of hearts I find it difficult to comprehent a Godhead sending humans to kill humans. Couldn't he have a flood? Famine? Disease? Nuclear accident? What is the difference? I do not know. I am simply very resistent to the idea of people thinking they are justified in murder. Yes Krishna came, but he is not here now to direct. Or am I simply showing my ignorance again?

liselina · June 20, 2008

Namste

Amlesh · June 20, 2008

Thank you cbrahma, Amlesh, bhaktajan (pokemon :-),

As you can probably tell I am not of any one faith. I do believe in one Divine Creator Lord of all the Universe. Multiple faiths would argue about the name and specifique attributes of such a Lord, but I will not. I am greatly enjoying this forum as a place to learn, reflect and exchange ideas.

Amlesh, I would like to thank you for quoting the GITA. In particular the last two sentences. This truth is absolute:

"The body is born and is destined to be vanquished today or tommorrow; therefore the body is not as important as the soul. One who knows this is actually learned, and for him there is no cause for lamentation, regardless of the condition of the material body."

This for me causes no reaction. It is a fact. What does cause my fear to react is when people claim that they kill in the name of God. Or worse because God told them in this instance it is ok. Facism in all its forms be it US, Nazi, or whatever often has tentacles that go out into religion. It can find texts and passages to substantiate it's position. No problem.

I do not claim to be wise or "learned" or to know the answers. That being said I do have opinions. And in my heart of hearts I find it difficult to comprehent a Godhead sending humans to kill humans. Couldn't he have a flood? Famine? Disease? Nuclear accident? What is the difference? I do not know. I am simply very resistent to the idea of people thinking they are justified in murder. Yes Krishna came, but he is not here now to direct. Or am I simply showing my ignorance again?

I like your humbleness.

your questions have shown your intelligence, not your ignorance. These days very rarely people can ask themselves these questions.

Krishna says, though he is the creator, but still he is not the doer. Our path to enjoyment or suffering, it's only us who create. flood, Famine, Disease, Nuclear accident are all the merit that we have cultivated by our own hands, when the time harvest has come, we ask ourself why?

When Krishna says Kill, it might seem so he is saying Kill, But it's only Him who said, for the soul there is neither birth or death, "Na hanti na hanyate", no one kills and no one dies.

Now, our being here, is something important. Think deeply, in a country, where do we put criminals? obviously in jails. Likewise, materially affected people lives in this material world. Imagine, how can a person like me, who is full of sin, be part of Vaikuntha where perfected being like Hanuman, Narada and Bhisma lives. Don't u think I'll disturb them? The world is the best place and has all the ingredients to overcome our frailties and know things in its proper place. After knowing the unknown the doors of Vainkuntha will be opened where there is no Famine etc, since vice and virtue does not exist and in consequence no reactions to suffer or to enjoy.

And remember Krishna does not enjoy all that, he himself suffered the loss of his favorites, Abhimanyu, Ghatockgaj, Bhisma, Karna etc. But duty is duty for the sake of Truth. Ram accepted to Leave his dear wife Sita because of Duty and If our dear lord can sacrifice, then why not us also.

Now concerning all the cheap talks of Politician, then if you know Gita, you will be like the swan which can differentiate between right and wrong.

Amlesh · June 20, 2008

And who says Krishna is not here, He is here, all we need is that beautiful vision which is tough to explain on forums.

Ask Theist, he is the best Teacher out here.

liselina · June 20, 2008

Thank you again.

I did not purport to mean Krishna is not here in our beautifull vision, hearts, minds and spirits.

I mean physically in all his glorious blue splendor. Should I come face to face with Krishna on this material plane I would be forced to look at myself if he told me point blank, kill those people.

However, because of, the frailty of the mind, proven over and over in our actions as fellow humans, I would be leary to believe someone who said a Godhead told them to kill another. I would consider them ill, delusional and dangerous. In short, I would not believe them.

To your earlier point of Krishna being here in our beautifull vision, how could he not be? He is remembered so many ways in texts, in artwork, in disscussion, devotion, and is present in hearts.

Whilst I would accept someones claim that said: "Krishna told me to give that beggar money." or "Krishna guided me to jump in the raging river to save this child.". I would think this is beautifull, how inspiational, and never would I doubt the authenticity of the claimants beliefs. But... should they claim Krishna told them to cause death...

Theist, can you shed Illumination on these light and dark subjects. You are reportedly the best teacher out there. And I welcome, of course, any one else to comment.

Namaste

Amlesh · June 20, 2008

Thank you again.

I did not purport to mean Krishna is not here in our beautifull vision, hearts, minds and spirits.

I mean physically in all his glorious blue splendor. Should I come face to face with Krishna on this material plane I would be forced to look at myself if he told me point blank, kill those people.

However, because of, the frailty of the mind, proven over and over in our actions as fellow humans, I would be leary to believe someone who said a Godhead told them to kill another. I would consider them ill, delusional and dangerous. In short, I would not believe them.

To your earlier point of Krishna being here in our beautifull vision, how could he not be? He is remembered so many ways in texts, in artwork, in disscussion, devotion, and is present in hearts.

Whilst I would accept someones claim that said: "Krishna told me to give that beggar money." or "Krishna guided me to jump in the raging river to save this child.". I would think this is beautifull, how inspiational, and never would I doubt the authenticity of the claimants beliefs. But... should they claim Krishna told them to cause death...

Theist, can you shed Illumination on these light and dark subjects. You are reportedly the best teacher out there. And I welcome, of course, any one else to comment.

Namaste

Your Job is assigned according to your ability and your nature. Vyas Dev was asked to Compile Vedas because he is a Brahmin. Likewise Arjun was asked to fight because he was a Kshatriya. He does not like interchange of Job. That's why he said, better be destroyed accomplishing your duty which is in accordance to your nature than to do a job which is not according to your nature and achieve success.

You won't be asked to do such a job if it is against you. And I suppose, the changing of garment affects you a lot. know it for certain Death does not exist.

bhaktajan · June 20, 2008

reconciling one's own "actions",

and ergo,

Whence the nature & motives of "what provokes us to act":

These are the things of which philosophy & it's related subjects are composed of.

Daily & Life long "Reconciling of one's own actions" [albeit, via a sane and lucid human 'value systems' and/or via an animals' genetic instinct] is what living entities do:

We reconcil the meaning of our present, future, and, past actions--so as to "progress" in this life-time, and then the next life time and then the next until we stop to contemplate "why" are we 'repeating' the same old "4-Activities of the living entities":

eating, sleeping, mating, & defending --to what end? To what end?

"ABSOLUTE TRUTH" exists, or it doesn't exist.

A person may [or most don't bother to] form the ability/interest to solve this conundrum. They will be satisfied with theirown subjective life of personal mundane sense gratification and thus 'AMEN', end of subject.

One must garner the wherewithal to put the pieces together--from ones subjective experiences grows an objective world outside of ourselves which we contribute our actions to.

These actions are called KARMA (action).

Please delve into the subtle workings of "Karma, and also, Karmic-re-actions". The proper management of one's own 'actions' is what yoga is about. And the temple of the soul (the body) is the headquarters of such plans of action.

Life in the material world is a battle to have the leisure time to enjoy our senses.

The battle is a mundane fight with our minds discipline over the sense-gratificatory propensity. A farmer must wake early. A fireman must rush to the blaze. Who best than authorized trained personnel to show-up to get the job done.

The the Gita, God says, "I am the Monarch ... I am the greatest cheater ... I am the rod of chasticement" these are the apex of human attainments that are practiced to our benefit, and indeed, so-called learned leaders also cheat us of liberty after having attained such authority.

The quality of the leader is what we must pray & hope for. The Gita teaches how to subjectively contemplate objective duty even in the face of comfortably-numb indifference or complex politically motivated aggressors.

The purports of A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami provides both a "master class" on the above subject, and also, provides one the objective vision to read & reconcile the morning paper headlines with out losing ones composure as Arjuna had.

krsna · June 28, 2008

Is it our duty to go around and judge all other devotees?

Criticism means the confession of my frustration with my inability to connect.

http://www.prabhupada.org/rama/?p=4324

suchandra · June 29, 2008

Yes, we should always see good qualities in others, especially when it comes to encourage the newcomers. When it comes to pure devotees, spiritual masters, there should be no reason to find any fault in the character of a maha-bhagavat Vaishnava.

Therefore one can say that the saksad-hari guru successors of our guru-paprampara, disciplic succession are never acting abominably. It is rather the neophyte who fails abominably, but he should be encouraged to make advancement. Bhagavad-Gita verse says that only the neophytes may act abominably and make mistakes.

Many are quite concerned about ISKCON since now the GBC are enunciating that their "gurus" are in reality acting as priests, i.e. a priest needs to be censured, monitored, excommunicated, in other words their gurus are in truth acting as priests. Even they are acknowledging by their new supervising program of HH Satsvarupa Goswami and others. This should be surely always supported that the GBC are supervised priests, not fully liberated souls and the GBC are finally taking up this policy all over ISKCON.

But this monitoring/supervising program is surely not to see fault in others - it is rather a safety precaution for neophytes.

AncientMariner · June 29, 2008

Personally I liked George Carlin's approach. Make fun of everybody. All humans are crazy.

realist · June 29, 2008

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Ram Hare Ram Ram Ram Hare Hare

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krsna · June 29, 2008

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna
Krsna Krsna

Hare Hare

Hare Rama

Hare Rama

Rama Rama

Hare Hare



Jai Sri Sri Radha Govindaji Ki Jai!!!

suchandra · June 29, 2008

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Ram Hare Ram Ram Ram Hare Hare
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Well yes, there're lots of honoured Vaishnavas who suggest that all cyberspace Vaishnava forums should be closed. Could be that if the global Vaishnava institutions would have been working accurate, error-free, exact, free from defects, no Vaishnava forums would have been opened.

At least it should be clear that when the leaders create chaos, the rank and file cannot be blamed.

realist · June 29, 2008

Well yes, there're lots of honoured Vaishnavas who suggest that all cyberspace Vaishnava forums should be closed. Could be that if the global Vaishnava institutions would have been working accurate, error-free, exact, free from defects, no Vaishnava forums would have been opened.
At least it should be clear that when the leaders create chaos, the rank and file cannot be blamed.

I copied Sri Sri Radha Govindaji from your website prabhuji, hope you don't mind, I love the set up of that site. I even tried to add the music to this thread from your site. Can that be done? Don't worry about the arrogent fundamentalists in or out of ISKCON. If it wasn't for free thinkers, the chosen eleven would be running ISKCON like President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe runs his country.

suchandra · June 29, 2008

I copied Sri Sri Radha Govindaji from your website prabhuji, hope you don't mind, I love the set up of that site. I even tried to add the music to this thread from your site. Can that be done? Don't worry about the arrogent fundamentalists in or out of ISKCON. If it wasn't for free thinkers, the chosen eleven would be running ISKCON like President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe runs his country.

Sorry Realist, misunderstood, thought you want to say, stopp all this debate, chant Hare Krsna, what is actually a good proposal. Well it's not actually my website, it is a website I like, but not done by me.

Prabhupāda: So anyway, this Thakurbari, Rādhā-Govindajī, is my life. That is the beginning of my, this spiritual life. And after so many years, still Rādhā-Govindajī has dragged me. So it is His kindness. So the beginning was the same thing—worship of Rādhā- Kṛṣṇa Deity and introduction of Ratha-yātrā. That is I am doing in a bigger scale and a wider scale all over the world. So it is nothing new. So in the one sense, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo ’bhijāyate. So although I was not belonging to this family…. Or perhaps originally we belonged to this family, because they are also De, we are De, but practically I was born in this family, and śucīnāṁ śrīmatām. And my father was a very pure Vaiṣṇava. So these opportunities we got. Now it is developed in a wider scale. It is all Kṛṣṇa’s arrangement, maybe from my previous life. But you are cooperating, you American and European, so we are spreading the mission of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, this mission. Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa mission it is practically. Śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya, rādhā- kṛṣṇa nahe anya. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is combination of Rādhā- Kṛṣṇa. Rādhā-kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī-śaktir asmād [Cc. Adi 1.5]. Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, the same Absolute Truth. Rādhārāṇī is the pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy, He expands His pleasure potency in the form of Rādhārāṇī. And when He wants to spread the loving affairs of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, He takes the form of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and very kindly He gives the love of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has offered Him obeisances, namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Madhya 19.53]. To understand Kṛṣṇa, it takes long, long duration of life. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. And to understand the love of Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī, it is not so easy thing. But by the grace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu we are understanding. Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Madhya 19.53]. So it is now spreading all over the world. So this is…. About this movement it may be this Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, Rādhā-Govinda Deity is the, what is called?