Danielle Field Posted September 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 In stating that socialism is not the answer I mean that it doesn't claim to be an answer. It is a process that will enable the creative energies within humankind to be released so that the world can be re organised around productive, creative principles. No self respecting socialist, in the light of the hideous stalinist regime, would claim to know exactly what a socialist society could or should look like. Rather it is with an eye to faith in human beings to actually articulate a world, given the right social and economic structures to do so, are capable of living peacefully. We need a world in which ignorance can be combatted through providing education even of a material nature to all people and ensure that it is not just a privilege of the rich. Prabhupada said that we will not become spiritually aware until we are material aware. When so many in the world cannot read or write how can we expect ignorance to be dispelled and the Bhagavatam to be read by all? We need communities that can provide their collective needs communally and not one in which we have to fight as individuals for access to health care and security. These are collective needs and should be met collectively. To encourage a system of "meritocracy" is to ensure that there must be loosers within the system so that winning takes on more meaning. The winners are always going to be those who started the race with more resources. Devotees need to be thinking practically about how to bring about a spiritual revolution and stop being so insular in their spiritual development. Insularity brings fearfulness. How can you hope to become spiritually aware when you are fearful of protecting your individual development of consciousness in a world racked with ignorance and sin? God lives within human culture and it is our duty to do what is necessary to make human culture offerable to God and then invite Him to inhabit it. It is not just our own hearts that need to be purified. If you simply attempt to develop your own consciousness and damn the rest of the world to live in ignorance and war you will not develop devotion to Krishna, you will simply exacerbate your tendency to devote your activities to your self. Socialism offers a revolutionary means via which to organise economic principles around collective needs which will enable us to have the time to develop our individual relationship with God. Capitalism robs us of this collective organisation which is inherent within Prabhupada's teachings on Varnashrama Dhama. Capitalism forces us to strive for an individualistic existence to meet our collective needs and thereby prevents us from devoting our individual energies towards advancing our personal relationship with Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 The Capitalists will sometimes agree that everything comes from God but instead of using it in His service they prefer to try and enjoy it separately through a false sense of ownership and control. Therefore even if they claim some belief they are still demons. The materialistic communists also do not acknowledge the ultimate propriority of the Lord and in most cases they view religion as an "opiate of the masses". Therefore they are also demons. There is no need to go to the atheists or demons to learn how to construct a proper society. It is all contained perfectly in vedic teachings and specifically within Vaisnavism. For instance both Capitalism and materialistic Communism ignore the sva-dharma of the citizens. We have seen how the industrious members of society were treated after Castro's revolution and we have seen how the intelligent class was treated in China after Mao took over. To take an academic and force him into factory work is not only ridiculous but also criminal. Only in theistic communism do we see the materially acquired mental natures of the citizen being put to proper use towards the ultimate realization of their nitya dharmic natures as eternal servants of the Supreme Absolute. Karma yoga. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle Field Posted September 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 The point I am trying to make is that we have not done a very good job of establishing theistic communism because, by and large, Iskcon has fallen pray to capitalistic thinking. We tend as a group to believe that people who are in a fallen condition deserve to be there because of their karma and do not apply our spiritual knowledge and compassion towards creating a world in which all people could develop spiritual consciousness. Prabhupada had this vision which is why he came to the west when all his good friends told him that it was a mistake, we were all demons. My point is that Prabhupada found an eager audience in hippies who were engaged in what the more prurient amongst us would categorise as demoniac practices. But were they demons? No, because when they were introduced to a higher way of living they embraced it willingly. Socialists for the greater part exhibit a higher level of compassion and are more materially aware of the world political situation because they are part of that world and are not hiding from it within the confines of religious communes. I understand why they are dubious of religious sects as most have become a by-word for brainwashing and the diminishing of spiritual consciousness. Because most devotees are now more keen to protect their own personal advancement within a world they increasingly fear because they are separated from and therefore do not understand. Their fear, I believe, is caused for a greater part by the lies that capitalism peddles in order to control us. We cannot trust each other, we are all ruthlessly selfish and would prefer to earn money for our own keep than to contribute to a collective pot, compassion is dead long live individualistic consumerism. I believe that the world has advanced due to its growing awareness that the dominant economic system is robbing them of what it means to be human. In socialists I see a greater sense of what it is to be human because they are willing to challenge the lies that the capitalist system puts forward by proving people are willing to fight for the rights of others and show solidarity with those suffering at the hands of ruthless oppression in other countries around the world. My experience within Iskcon was that most of the devotees were too afraid even to show solidarity with each other for the sake of developing Iskcon let alone have compassion for those that are being bombed or starved into submission by the ruthless bullying of the ruling class. If I thought we were doing anything like spreading theistic communism I would be happy to get on board but we're not. As a group we have become inward looking, selfish and concerned only for our own spiritual development. I think socialists have a lot to teach us in terms of organising to create a world in which compassion and not dollars are the currency that we exchange. Socialists are closer to creating that world than we are right now because they are actually applying their intelligence to the task and committing themselves to it. got to go again. sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle Field Posted September 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Ok, got another little window here. I have already discussed the fact that leaders like Stalin, Castro and Mao were perverting the principles of socialism in order to gain power. By usurping the collective will of the populace and directing it towards creating 'socialism in one country' these leaders have misunderstood the basic principle that capitalism is a global system and can only be overthrown globally. As such I do not feel any need to challenge the proposition that socialism of necessity leads to dictatorship. It is socialism within one country that leads to dictatorship of necessity because it is trying to create a false position within the wider capitalist system and simply makes the whole country act as nothing but another corporate structure that relates to the wider world through capitalist relations. We are spiritual communists. This is what I am trying to reinvigorate the movement with, a sense of what actual communism is. At the moment Iskcon isn't fighting for spiritual communism. It is defending capitalistic relations within the temples and it is propogating practices which alienate devotees from their labour which is exactly what the ruling class does to the proletariat. In one of Theist's responses which i didnt' have time to get back to you wrote that socialists didn't recognise that labour was sacred, that they had some notion of ridding the world of labour so that we could all enjoy materially without interuption. For socialists work is integral to the spiritual development of human beings. Their labour determines who they are. If they are alienated from their labour in terms of producing items such as clothing, houses, or indeed profits that they will never derive any organic use from this alienates the workers from their labour. This in its turn alienates them from a conception of God. Devotional labour is what unites us with God and it is for this reason that I believe Capitalism is evil manifest. Not only does it rob people of the opportunity to labour by creating unemployment as a means of controlling the labouring classes with the threat of the importation at any moment of a surplus army of labour, it simultaneously drains labour of any devotional sensibility so that working itself becomes nothing but a means of surviving by gaining money. If we could begin to understand from a purely economic position exactly what was so wretched about the capitalist mode of production then our arguments about the importance of loving God would take on more meaning when we are preaching to the public. People would see the practical objective in our mission. They would understand that we have a purpose and a plan. Currently most devotees are running on blind faith hoping that Krishna will do something to change the world so that people will listen. My experience is that it is not that people will not listen. They are ready to hear but along the way since Prabhupada's departure the movement has become corrupted by capitalistic thinking, blame people don't help them. Bomb people don't feed or educate them. Racism, sexism, homophobia, all these means by which the ruling class divide and control us have become prolific within Iskcon thinking and practice. My objective is not to get devotees to join the socialist movement as a means to bringing about God consciousness although I have found the association of socialists conducive to developing spiritual consciousness. Rather I want devotees not to misunderstand the compassion manifest in the hearts of socialists and to try and develop a deeper understanding of what it is they are trying to achieve because we should be strategising how to overthrow capitalism also in order to manifest Varnashrama Dhama. My mission also is to radicalise ISKCON because it has simply become yet another religious business functioning within this wretched economic order. We need to overthrow Capitalism from within ISKCON itself and have faith that there are practical measures we can implement to spiritually revolutionise the world. I want to challenge the tendency within devotees to fear their own fall down and act as timid individual protectionist spirits. Go forth and blooming well multiply the movement! Recognise that there is a problem and be willing to address it. Learn from organisations that are growing and try to understand what it is we're doing wrong. Don't fall for the traps that the ruling order have deliberately set to separate us from the growing number of people out there who are desperate to change the world and make it a nicer place. Talk to them. Do not assume just because they are socialists they are impenetrable demons. Maybe its ISKCON that is impenetrable and not socialism. Prabhupada came to the west with a thirst to speak to so many different organisations and to empower these organisations with spiritual arguments so that they became purified from within. In order to assist him do that he opened and maintained centres committed to spiritual principles so that they could be armed with the knowledge of how to go out and convince others how to change the world. Now what we have is people making a show of preaching by speaking to some groups and yet shunning others believing they are too wicked for redemption, then running back to the "preaching centres" to hide from the world and pray that Krishna makes it better for them so that preaching gets easier. We have become frightened and devotees have no business being frightened, not even for their own spiritual redemption! Your own spiritual redemption is assured if you put others before yourself and go out and preach!!! Take care, D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 The point I am trying to make is that we have not done a very good job of establishing theistic communism because, by and large, Iskcon has fallen pray to capitalistic thinking. As I envision it the first place theistic communism needs to be established is within the consciousness of each of us individually. That first and foremost. As I previously stated theistic communism is right from the beginning of Sri Isopanishad. God is the only owner and we all have a right to our quota and should not take more than that. Until this is understood and accepted any political system either capitalist communist or monarchy will be corrupted by those in charge. My point is that Prabhupada found an eager audience in hippies who were engaged in what the more prurient amongst us would categorise as demoniac practices. But were they demons? No, because when they were introduced to a higher way of living they embraced it willingly. So why haven't the socialists embraced theistic communism? Because they are demons plain and simple. They reject the idea of God. Why are you and I aspiring theistic communists and they choose to be atheistic communists. Socialists for the greater part exhibit a higher level of compassion and are more materially aware of the world political situation because they are part of that world and are not hiding from it within the confines of religious communes. I understand why they are dubious of religious sects as most have become a by-word for brainwashing and the diminishing of spiritual consciousness. I don't see so much compassion, you seem to. I see them killing animals needlessly for food just like all the cold hearted capitalists. What are their views on abortion by and large? Because most devotees are now more keen to protect their own personal advancement within a world they increasingly fear because they are separated from and therefore do not understand. Their fear, I believe, is caused for a greater part by the lies that capitalism peddles in order to control us. We cannot trust each other, we are all ruthlessly selfish and would prefer to earn money for our own keep than to contribute to a collective pot, compassion is dead long live individualistic consumerism. If that is what you think of devotees then it is obvious you have very little clue as to what a devotee is. You apparently think a devotee of Krsna is some member of a certain religious organization characterized by a certain mode of dress, beads, and traditional markings on his body. A devotee of Krsna may dress like that or he/she may not. A real devotee is one who loves the Lord one pointedly with all his heart and strength, and who loves other living beings as he does himself, IOW's has equal vision towards all. I believe that the world has advanced due to its growing awareness that the dominant economic system is robbing them of what it means to be human. In socialists I see a greater sense of what it is to be human because they are willing to challenge the lies that the capitalist system puts forward by proving people are willing to fight for the rights of others and show solidarity with those suffering at the hands of ruthless oppression in other countries around the world. My experience within Iskcon was that most of the devotees were too afraid even to show solidarity with each other for the sake of developing Iskcon let alone have compassion for those that are being bombed or starved into submission by the ruthless bullying of the ruling class. I see neither group living a life that shows what it means to be a spirit soul, part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. If I thought we were doing anything like spreading theistic communism I would be happy to get on board but we're not. As a group we have become inward looking, selfish and concerned only for our own spiritual development. Again it is not a group thing. the question we all need to ask yourself is what am I doing to spread theistic communism. It is foolish and hypocritical to criticize others for not doing something while not doing it yourself. And so you are not concerned with your own spiritual advancement? Besides I started chanting due to the efforts of five or six people who were willing to give up material possessions down to a toothbrush and sleeping bag while spending 8 hours a day chanting Hare Krsna in the streets to help save lost souls like myself. Unless they dovetail it to Krsna it is all a waste of time. Life is meant for more than equally sharing material products equally. It's nice if everyone gets a full loaf of bread but man doesnot live by bread alone but by the words that come from God. The person is not the body and so the prime target of welfare work must be the soul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle Field Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 "So why haven't the socialists embraced theistic communism? Because they are demons plain and simple. They reject the idea of God. Why are you and I aspiring theistic communists and they choose to be atheistic communists." You say that they are demons but my experience of their association tells me that they are not. You say that they are atheistic but only a percentage are and that percentage is dwindling. There was an expedient requirement for communists at the time of the Russian revolution to stand in opposition to the state backed religious institutions. This is because the leaders of religious institutions have historically sanctioned demoniac acts on behalf of the demoniac state and resisted the cry of the people for a better way of life, one that capitalism has afforded us through the social organisation of labour. The time has come to dispense with the old order and bring in a new one that facilitates the whole world and not just the privileged elite. We need to gain control of the means of production from the demoniac class of men, the ones who say "so much do I have today, and so much more will I have tomorrow" and pass the mantle to those crying "Bread, Peace and Freedom". We have come to a point in capitalism's history, now whereby the state no longer depends upon the backing of religious institutions to control the people through superstition. As such the church wields nowhere near so much power upon the ideological influence of the masses. This, I believe, is a good thing, because what is worse than atheism is the perversion of religious belief as it achieves what it has achieved within communistic persons previously, predjudice against the whole religious project and, ultimately, God. I am engaged in dialogue with socialists on this issue because they are at a point in their development where they can begin to accommodate a conception of the divine within the context of resisting the capitalist system. They are keen now to reclaim the religion of the oppressed from the religion of the oppressors. The religion of the oppressors states "do not try to change the world, what happens within it is God's will and therefore cannot be challenged. Resistance is futile." This is not our business as religious revolutionaries and such a position is an illusion created by those in power so that they can protect their privilege while the masses cannot meet the needs of survival and their opportunities to devote their lives to God are diminished by the shear struggle for survival. The prejudices you have towards socialists read like a well rehearsed script. They have been learnt from a previous era. Indeed they are informed by the very fact that devotees in the initial years of building the Iskcon movement were attacked at times and ridiculed by socialists for their worshipping an "imaginary deity" instead of focusing on hard hitting political views. What I am trying to tell you is that they are changing. Circumstance is changing them. They are learning that religion doesn't prevent one from developing a sincere desire to challenge the oppression of the demoniac class of men and so they are more respectful and therefore open to overcome their own predjudices. This is the reason I am attempting to open a dialogue about socialism with you. These prejudices are anachronistic and have hardened due to sectarianism alone and not in some necessary way in order to protect our movement. The mass of people need to organise and mobilise collectively to overthrow the demons who subvert all the world's resources into their pockets, force us to be dependent on oil so that the money passes into their grubby murderous hands and do not get spent on creating the kind of society that has a commitment to living practices conducive to Krishna's worship. Atheists lived in ancient India alongside theists with no quarrel. Indeed Jagganatha's temple was once in the care of Buddhist's and so far as we can tell He enjoyed and accepted their worship. I see the commitment of socialist's to a better world, one without war, greed, poverty, famine and pestilence as an act of worship on their behalf at the level of realisation that they experience. I think you are wrong to believe they are demonic and make a grave mistake in failing to understand the potential contained within the socilaist movement. I understand the economic principles underlying socialism and they would work in accordance with Vedic principles. I would encourage you to look at what Marx actually wrote about religion and attempt in your own space to understand the difference between the rhetoric of capitalist's regarding socialism and the reality. I agree with you entirely that devotion to theistic communism begins within the hearts and minds of individuals but right now the whole world is under attack from the constant onslaught of policies of economic vicissitude which demand an organised and mass resistance. Indeed they are fostering a mass resistance which we can choose to be a part of or get swept aside by. Religious people of all banners must be aware that socialists are not some atheistic cult to be shunned and dismissed. We can engage with them and if we want to know how to organise and develop our movement from the pathetic, fragmented scrap heap that it has become, we should. They are growing fast because they are arming people with the arguments they need to overcome the alienation that capitalism imposes upon them. This can and should be a springboard to developing spiritual consciousness, but it only will be if religious people get on board. To begin to understand that people are capable of change and that society itself can be changed stands in direct contradiction to what the capitalist class want us to believe. The last thing they want is for us to understand that all the faultlines within society are caused by neo-liberal policies and not the wretched hearts of the sinful. We want to see people punished rather than invest time in developing their skills within the world to become more productive people. Most of the people in prisons in Britain have the reading age of 11 and yet no-one attempts to teach them to read there once inside. Most of the people in prison were brought up in care homes, abused by paedophiles and then locked up with them. This is the difference between having a left and a right wing perspective. To have a left wing perspective is to believe that human beings placed in the right social and economic environment are capable of flourishing. This perspective is conducive to religious revolution. The right wing says "to hell with them and to hell with you all". If you've got money you'll get by but screw you if you haven't. I believe the reason that Iskcon has become such a pathetic shadow of its former self is because it has become beguiled by right wing arguments that people are ultimatley selfish and not to be trusted. Indeed that people in general should be feared and not understood, better to defend than to let down your guard. I speak to devotees selling books in the street and they look so uncomfortable and alienated because they are in a state of fear about their position and only feel relief in the beds wrapped up in the temple at night. If we could only begin to understand that the general mass of people could change rapidly if they had to right social facilities to do so then we would not be so confused and fearful about our own position. We should be concerned about social and economic issues effecting people's lives because this is exactly what the institution of Varnashrama Dhama is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 13, 2006 Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 I am engaged in dialogue with socialists on this issue because they are at a point in their development where they can begin to accommodate a conception of the divine within the context of resisting the capitalist system. That is great. And indeed you should continue that dialogue and to try inject theism into there present incomplete conception. We are told in the Gita that work done as a sacrifice for Vishnu must be performed or otherwise work binds one to the material world. In a purport in Sri Isopanishad Srila Prabhupada tells us that altruistic activites when done in the spirit of Sri Isopanishad are another form of karma-yoga. That is all I am trying to get across and nothing more. We have the example of six zeros (000,000) still adding up to zero. But place the #1 in front of them and now we have 1 million. Krsna (God) is the one. We as individuals must remember to keep the 1 in the front position and to help others understand this truth also, as you are attempting to do with the socialists. I agree they have many sound ideas but they are just zero ideas without Krsna. I hope you have much success when when dealing with them. Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2006 Report Share Posted October 14, 2006 Please could we have a discussion about socialism. I am a socialist and an aspirant Vaishnav and have no Guru to mediate between these two positions. I know I cannot rely on my own conclusions in this regard but I've never met anyone who can convince me of any contradictions between these two apparently opposing doctrines. Yes, as I understand, Vaishanvism has nothing to do with any social structure. It should be somewhere above any social order. Let us don't mix these things up. I like to look at world from Vedic perception. Dharma Shastras (Manu's Low) explain a lot. Bhishmadeva's instructions to Yudhisthira about dharma are also great. You can find me to talk at alex@silkroadpainting.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle Field Posted November 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2006 Sorry, couldn't get you on that link. I don't have the internet anymore either so I'll probably not be able to get back to you for a while. Hope you're ok. The world's on the verge of a massive shake up, gotta keep our consciousness up. I'll be out there fighting somewhere. Hope you're doing the same. Take care, there's capitalists out there!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 Telegraph.co.uk, Sunday, November 19, 2006 - By ANDREW ALDERSON, Chief Reporter and JAMES GLOVER, Sunday Telegraph - Leading Russian critic of Putin's regime is poisoned in London Scotland Yard has launched an investigation into an audacious attempt to murder – using a deadly poison – a leading Russian defector at a restaurant in London. Alexander Litvinenko, a former colonel in the Russian secret service and a fierce critic of President Vladimir Putin, was seriously ill under armed guard at a London hospital last night. Mr Litvinenko, 50, who used to work for the Federal Security Bureau (FSB, the former KGB), fell ill after meeting a contact at Itsu, a sushi restaurant in Piccadilly. The woman journalist claimed to have information on the murder of Anna Politkovskaya, 48, the outspoken journalist who was killed at her Moscow apartment last month. go to story Classless society unnatural Syamasundar: Karl Marx contended that philosophers have only interpreted the world; the point is to change it. His philosophy is often called "dialectical materialism" because it comes from the dialectic of George Hegel—thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. When applied to society, his philosophy is known as communism. His idea is that for many generations, the bourgeoisie [the property owners] have competed with the proletariat [the working class], and that this conflict will terminate in the communist society. In other words, the workers will overthrow the capitalistic class and establish a so-called dictatorship of the proletariat, which will finally become a classless society. Prabhupada: But how is a classless society possible? Men naturally fall into different classes. Your nature is different from mine, so how can we artificially be brought to the same level? Syamasundar: His idea is that human nature, or ideas, are molded by the means of production. Therefore everyone can be trained to participate in the classless society. Prabhupada: Then training is required? Syamasundar: Yes. Prabhupada: And what will be the center of training for this classless society? What will be the motto? Syamasundar: The motto is "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." The idea is that everyone would contribute something, and everyone would get what he needed. Prabhupada: But everyone's contribution is different. A scientific man contributes something, and a philosopher contributes something else. The cow contributes milk, and the dog contributes service as a watchdog. Even the trees, the birds, the beasts—everyone is contributing something. So, by nature a reciprocal arrangement is already there among social classes. How can there be a classless society? Syamasundar: Well, Marx's idea is that the means of production will be owned in common. No one would have an advantage over anyone else, and thus one person could not exploit another. Marx is thinking in terms of profit. Prabhupada: First we must know what profit actually is. For example, the American hippies already had "profit". They were from the best homes, their fathers were rich—they had everything. Yet they were not satisfied; they rejected it. No, this idea of a classless society based on profit-sharing is imperfect. Besides, the communists have not created a classless society. We have seen in Moscow how a poor woman will wash the streets while her boss sits comfortably in his car. So where is the classless society? As long as society is maintained, there must be some higher and lower classification. But if the central point of society is one, then whether one works in a lower or a higher position, he doesn't care. For example, our body has different parts—the head, the legs, the hands—but everything works for the stomach. Syamasundar: Actually, the Russians supposedly have the same idea: they claim the common worker is just as glorious as the top scientist or manager. Prabhupada: But in Moscow we have seen that not everyone is satisfied. One boy who came to us was very unhappy because in Russia young boys are not allowed to go out at night. Syamasundar: The Russian authorities would say that he has an improper understanding of Marxist philosophy. Prabhupada: That "improper understanding" is inevitable. They will never be able to create a classless society because, as I have already explained, everyone's mentality is different. Syamasundar: Marx says that if everyone is engaged according to his abilities in a certain type of production, and everyone works for the central interest, then everyone's ideas will become uniform. Prabhupada: Therefore we must find out the real central interest. In our International Society for Krishna Consciousness [iSKCON], everyone has a central interest in Krishna. Therefore one person is speaking, another person is typing, another is going to the press or washing the dishes, and no one is grudging, because they are all convinced they are serving Krishna. Syamasundar: Marx's idea is that the center is the state. Prabhupada: But the state cannot be perfect. If the Russian state is perfect, then why was Khrushchev driven from power? He was elected premier. Why was he driven from power? Syamasundar: Because he was not fulfilling the aims of the people. Prabhupada: Well, then, what is the guarantee the next premier will do that? There is no guarantee. The same thing will happen again and again. Because the center, Khrushchev, was imperfect, people begrudged their labor. The same thing is going on in non-communist countries as well. The government is changed, the prime minister is deposed, the president is impeached. So what is the real difference between Russian communism and other political systems? What is happening in other countries is also happening in Russia, only they call it by a different name. When we talked with Professor Kotovsky of Moscow University, we told him he had to surrender: either he must surrender to Krishna or to Lenin, but he must surrender. He was taken aback at this. Syamasundar: From studying history, Marx concluded that the characteristics of culture, the social structure, and even the thoughts of the people are determined by the means of economic production. Prabhupada: How does he account for all the social disruption in countries like America, which is so advanced in economic production? Syamasundar: He says that capitalism is a decadent form of economic production because it relies on the exploitation of one class by another. Prabhupada: But there is exploitation in the communist countries also. Khrushchev was driven out of power because he was exploiting his position. He was giving big government posts to his son and son-in-law. Syamasundar: He was deviating from the doctrine. Prabhupada: But since any leader can deviate, how will perfection come? First the person in the center must be perfect, then his dictations will be correct. Otherwise, if the leaders are all imperfect men, what is the use of changing this or that? The corruption will continue. Syamasundar: Presumably the perfect leader would be the one who practiced Marx's philosophy without deviation. Prabhupada: But Marx's philosophy is also imperfect! His proposal for a classless society is unworkable. There must be one class of men to administer the government and one class of men to sweep the streets. How can there be a classless society? Why should a sweeper be satisfied seeing someone else in the administrative post? He will think, "He is forcing me to work as a sweeper in the street while he sits comfortably in a chair." In our international society, I am also holding the superior post: I am sitting in a chair, and you are offering me garlands and the best food. Why? Because you see a perfect man whom you can follow. That mentality must be there. Everyone in the society must be able to say, "Yes, here is a perfect man. Let him sit in a chair, and let us all bow down and work like menials." Where is that perfect man in the communist countries? Syamasundar: The Russians claim that Lenin is a perfect man. Prabhupada: Lenin? But no one is following Lenin. Lenin's only perfection was that he overthrew the czar's government. What other perfection has he shown? The people are not happy simply reading Lenin's books. I studied the people in Moscow. They are unhappy. The government cannot force them to be happy artificially. Unless there is a perfect, ideal man in the center, there cannot possibly be a classless society. Syamasundar: Perhaps they see the workers and the managers in the same way that we do—in the absolute sense. Since everyone is serving the state, the sweeper is as good as the administrator. Prabhupada: But unless the state gives perfect satisfaction to the people, there will always be distinctions between higher and lower classes. In the Russian state, that sense of perfection in the center is lacking. Material stomach is always hungry Syamasundar: Their goal is the production of material goods for the enhancement of human well-being. Prabhupada: That is useless! Economic production in America has no comparison in the world, yet still people are dissatisfied. The young men are confused. It is nonsensical to think that simply by increasing production everyone will become satisfied. No one will be satisfied. Man is not meant simply for eating. He has mental necessities, intellectual necessities, spiritual necessities. In India many people sit alone silently in the jungle and practice yoga. They do not require anything. How will increased production satisfy them? If someone were to say to them, "If you give up this yoga practice, I will give you two hundred bags of rice," they would laugh at the proposal. It is animalistic to think that simply by increasing production everyone will become satisfied. Real happiness does not depend on either production or starvation, but upon peace of mind. For example, if a child is crying but the mother does not know why, the child will not stop simply by giving him some milk. Sometimes this actually happens: the mother cannot understand why her child is crying, and though she is giving him her breast, he continues to cry. Similarly, dissatisfaction in human society is not caused solely by low economic production. That is nonsense. There are many causes of dissatisfaction. The practical example is America, where there is sufficient production of everything, yet the young men are becoming hippies. They are dissatisfied, confused. No, simply by increasing economic production people will not become satisfied. Marx's knowledge is insufficient. Perhaps because he came from a country where people were starving, he had that idea. Syamasundar: Yes, now we've seen that production of material goods alone will not make people happy. Prabhupada: Because they do not know that real happiness comes from spiritual understanding. That understanding is given in the <CITE>Bhagavad-gita</CITE>: God is the supreme enjoyer, and He is the proprietor of everything. We are not actually enjoyers; we are all workers. These two things must be there: an enjoyer and a worker. For example, in our body the stomach is the enjoyer and all other parts of the body are workers. So this system is natural: there must always be someone who is the enjoyer and someone who is the worker. It is present in the capitalist system also. In Russia there is always conflict between the managers and the workers. The workers say, "If this is a classless society, why is that man sitting comfortably and ordering us to work?" The Russians have not been able to avoid this dilemma, and it cannot be avoided. There must be one class of men who are the directors or enjoyers and another class of men who are the workers. Therefore the only way to have a truly classless society is to find that method by which both the managers and the workers will feel equal happiness. For example, if the stomach is hungry and the eyes see some food, immediately the brain will say, "O legs, please go there!" and "Hand, pick it up," and "Now please put it into the mouth." Immediately the food goes into the stomach, and as soon as the stomach is satisfied, the eyes are satisfied, the legs are satisfied, and the hand is satisfied. Syamasundar: But Marx would use this as a perfect example of communism. Prabhupada: But he has neglected to find out the real stomach. Syamasundar: His is the material stomach. Prabhupada: But the material stomach is always hungry again; it can never be satisfied. In the Krishna consciousness movement we have the substance for feeding our brains, our minds, and our souls. <CITE>Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah</CITE>: if the spiritual master is satisfied, then Krishna is satisfied, and if Krishna is satisfied, then everyone is satisfied. Therefore you are all trying to satisfy your spiritual master. Similarly, if the communist countries can come up with a dictator who, if satisfied, automatically gives satisfaction to all the people, then we will accept such a classless society. But this is impossible. A classless society is only possible when Krishna is in the center. For the satisfaction of Krishna, the intellectual can work in his own way, the administrator can work in his way, the merchant can work in his way, and the laborer can work in his way. This is truly a classless society. Syamasundar: How is this different from the communist country, where all sorts of men contribute for the same central purpose, which is the state? Prabhupada: The difference is that if the state is not perfect, no one will willingly contribute to it. They may be forced to contribute, but they will not voluntarily contribute unless there is a perfect state in the center. For example, the hands, legs, and brain are working in perfect harmony for the satisfaction of the stomach. Why? Because they know without a doubt that by satisfying the stomach they will all share the energy and also be satisfied. Therefore, unless the people have this kind of perfect faith in the leader of the country, there is no possibility of a classless society. Syamasundar: The communists theorize that if the worker contributes to the central fund, he will get satisfaction in return. Prabhupada: Yes, but if he sees imperfection in the center, he will not work enthusiastically because he will have no faith that he will get full satisfaction. That perfection of the state will never be there, and therefore the workers will always remain dissatisfied. Syamasundar: The propagandists play upon this dissatisfaction and tell the people that foreigners are causing it. Prabhupada: But if the people were truly satisfied, they could not be influenced by outsiders. If you are satisfied that your spiritual master is perfect—that he is guiding you nicely—will you be influenced by outsiders? Syamasundar: No. Prabhupada: Because the communist state will never be perfect, there is no possibility of a classless society. Not exempt from exploitation Syamasundar: Marx examines history and sees that in Greek times, in Roman times, and in the Middle Ages slaves were always required for production. Prabhupada: The Russians are also creating slaves—the working class. Joseph Stalin stayed in power simply by killing all his enemies. He killed so many men that he is recorded in history as the greatest criminal. He was certainly imperfect, yet he held the position of dictator, and the people were forced to obey him. Syamasundar: His followers have denounced him. Prabhupada: That's all well and good, but his followers should also be denounced. The point is that in any society there must be a leader, there must be directors, and there must be workers, but everyone should be so satisfied that they forget the difference. Syamasundar: No envy. Prabhupada: Ah, no envy. But that perfection is not possible in the material world. Therefore Marx's theories are useless. Syamasundar: But on the other hand, the capitalists also make slaves of their workers. Prabhupada: Wherever there is materialistic activity, there must be imperfection. But if they make Krishna the center, then all problems will be resolved. Syamasundar: Are you saying that any system of organizing the means of production is bound to be full of exploitation? Prabhupada: Yes, certainly, certainly! The materialistic mentality means exploitation. Syamasundar: Then what is the solution? Prabhupada: Krishna consciousness! Syamasundar: How is that? Prabhupada: Just make Krishna the center and work for Him. Then everyone will be satisfied. As it is stated in the <CITE>Srimad-Bhagavatam</CITE> [4.31.14]: <CITE>yatha taror mula-nishechanena tripyanti tat-skandha-bhujopashakhah pranopaharach cha yathendriyanam tathaiva sarvarhanam achyutejya</CITE> If you simply pour water on the root of a tree, all the branches, twigs, leaves, and flowers will be nourished. Similarly, everyone can be satisfied simply by achyutejya. Acyuta means Krishna, and ijya means worship. So this is the formula for a classless society: Make Krishna [God] the center and do everything for Him. There are no classes in our International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Now you are writing philosophy, but if I want you to wash dishes, you will do so immediately because you know that whatever you do, you are working for Krishna and for your spiritual master. In the material world different kinds of work have different values, but in Krishna consciousness everything is done on the absolute platform. Whether you wash dishes or write books or worship the Deity, the value is the same because you are serving Krishna. That is a classless society. Actually, the perfect classless society is Vrindavana. In Vrindavana, some are cowherd boys, some are cows, some are trees, some are fathers, some are mothers, but the center is Krishna, and everyone is satisfied simply by loving Him. When all people become Krishna conscious and understand how to love Him, then there will be a classless society. Otherwise it is not possible. Who is the proprietor? Syamasundar: Marx's definition of communism is "The common or public ownership of the means of production, and the abolition of private property." In our International Society for Krishna Consciousness, don't we have the same idea? We also say, "Nothing is mine." We have also abolished private property. Prabhupada: While the communist says, "Nothing is mine," he thinks everything belongs to the state. The state, however, is simply an extended "mine." For example, if I am the head of a family, I might say, "I do not want anything for myself, but I want many things for my children." Mahatma Gandhi, who sacrificed so much to drive the English out of India, was at the same time thinking, "I am a very good man; I am doing national work." Therefore, this so-called nationalism or so-called communism is simply extended selfishness. The quality remains the same. The real change occurs when we say, "Nothing belongs to me; everything belongs to God, Krishna, and therefore I should use everything in His service." That is factual. Syamasundar: Marx says that the capitalists are parasites living at the cost of the workers. Prabhupada: But the communists are also living at the cost of the workers: the managers are drawing big salaries, and the common workers are dissatisfied. Indeed, their godless society is becoming more and more troublesome. Unless everyone accepts God as the only enjoyer and himself simply as His servant, there will always be conflict. In the broad sense, there is no difference between the communists and the capitalists because God is not accepted as the supreme enjoyer and proprietor in either system. Actually, no property belongs to either the communists or the capitalists. Everything belongs to God. No change of heart by force Syamasundar: Marx condemns the capitalists for making a profit. He says that profit-making is exploitation and that the capitalists are unnecessary for the production of commodities. Prabhupada: Profit-making may be wrong, but that exploitative tendency is always there, whether it is a communist or a capitalist system. In Bengal it is said that during the winter season the bugs cannot come out because of the severe cold. So they become dried up, being unable to suck any blood. But as soon as the summer season comes, the bugs get the opportunity to come out, so they immediately bite someone and suck his blood to their full satisfaction. Our mentality in this material world is the same: to exploit others and become wealthy. Whether you are a communist in the winter season or a capitalist in the summer season, your tendency is to exploit others. Unless there is a change of heart, this exploitation will go on. I once knew a mill worker who acquired some money. Then he became the proprietor of the mill and took advantage of his good fortune to become a capitalist. Henry Ford is another example. He was an errand boy, but he got the opportunity to become a capitalist. There are many such instances. So, to a greater or lesser degree, the propensity is always there in human nature to exploit others and become wealthy. Unless this mentality is changed, there is no point in changing from a capitalist to a communist society. Material life means that everyone is seeking some profit, some adoration, and some position. By threats the state can force people to curb this tendency, but for how long? Can they change everyone's mind by force? No, it is impossible. Therefore, Marx's proposition is nonsense. Syamasundar: Marx thinks the minds of people can be changed by forced conditioning. Prabhupada: That is not possible. Even a child cannot be convinced by force, what to speak of a mature, educated man. We have the real process for changing people's minds: chanting the Hare Krishna mantra. <CITE>Cheto-darpana-marjanam:</CITE> [<CITE>Chaitanya-charitamrita</CITE> Antya 20.12] This process cleanses the heart of material desires. We have seen that people in Moscow are not happy. They are simply waiting for another revolution. We talked to one working-class boy who was very unhappy. When a pot of rice is boiling, you can take one grain and press it between your fingers, and if it is hot you can understand all the rice is boiling. Thus we can understand the position of the Russian people from the sample of that boy. We could also get further ideas by talking with Professor Kotovsky from the India Department of Moscow University. How foolish he was! He said that after death everything is finished. If this is his knowledge, and if that young boy is a sample of the citizenry, then the situation in Russia is very bleak. They may theorize about so many things, but we could not even purchase sufficient groceries in Moscow. There were no vegetables, fruits, or rice, and the milk was of poor quality. If that Madrasi gentleman had not contributed some dahl and rice, then practically speaking we would have starved. The Russians' diet seemed to consist of only meat and liquor. Syamasundar: The communists play upon this universal profit motive. The worker who produces the most units at his factory is glorified by the state or receives a small bonus. Prabhupada: Why should he get a bonus? Syamasundar: To give him some incentive to work hard. Prabhupada: Just to satisfy his tendency to lord it over others and make a profit, his superiors bribe him. This Russian communist idea is very good, provided the citizens do not want any profit. But that is impossible, because everyone wants profit. The state cannot destroy this tendency either by law or by force. Syamasundar: The communists try to centralize everything—money, communications, and transport—in the hands of the state. Prabhupada: But what benefit will there be in that? As soon as all the wealth is centralized, the members of the central government will appropriate it, just as Khrushchev did. These are all useless ideas as long as the tendency for exploitation is not reformed. The Russians have organized their country according to Marx's theories, yet all their leaders have turned out to be cheaters. Where is their program for reforming this cheating propensity? Syamasundar: Their program is to first change the social condition, and then, they believe, the corrupt mentality will change automatically. Prabhupada: Impossible. Such repression will simply cause a reaction in the form of another revolution. Syamasundar: Are you implying that the people's mentality must first be changed, and then a change in the social structure will naturally follow? Prabhupada: Yes. But the leaders will never be able to train all the people to think that everything belongs to the state. This idea is simply utopian nonsense. Syamasundar: Marx has another slogan: "Human nature has no reality." He says that man's nature changes through history according to material conditions. Prabhupada: He does not know the real human nature. It is certainly true that everything in this cosmic creation, or jagat, is changing. Your body changes daily. Everything is changing, just like waves in the ocean. This is not a very advanced philosophy. Marx's theory is also being changed; it cannot last. But man does have a fundamental nature that never changes: his spiritual nature. We are teaching people to come to the standard of acting according to their spiritual nature, which will never change. Acting spiritually means serving Krishna. If we try to serve Krishna now, we will continue to serve Krishna when we go to Vaikuntha, the spiritual world. Therefore, loving service to Lord Krishna is called nitya, or eternal. As Krishna says in the <CITE>Bhagavad-gita</CITE>, <CITE>nitya-yukta upasate:</CITE> "My pure devotees perpetually worship Me with devotion." The communists give up Krishna and replace Him with the state. Then they expect to get the people to think, "Nothing in my favor; everything in favor of the state." But people will never accept this idea. It is impossible; let the rascals try it! All they can do is simply force the people to work, as Stalin did. As soon as he found someone opposed to him, he immediately cut his throat. The same disease is still there today, so how will their program be successful? Syamasundar: Their idea is that human nature has no reality of its own. It is simply a product of the material environment. Thus, by putting a man in the factory and making him identify with the state and something like scientific achievement, they think they can transform him into a selfless person. Prabhupada: But because he has the basic disease, envy, he will remain selfish. When he sees that he is working so hard but that the profit is not coming to him, his enthusiasm will immediately slacken. In Bengal there is a proverb: "As a proprietor I can turn sand into gold, but as soon as I am no longer the proprietor, the gold becomes sand." The Russian people are in this position. They are not as rich as the Europeans or the Americans, and because of this they are unhappy. Syamasundar: One of the methods the authorities in Russia use is to constantly whip the people into believing there may be a war at any moment. Then they think, "To protect our country, we must work hard." Prabhupada: If the people cannot make any profit on their work, however, they will eventually lose all interest in the country. The average man will think, "Whether I work or not, I get the same result. I cannot adequately feed and clothe my family." Then he will begin to lose his incentive to work. A scientist will see that despite his high position, his wife and children are dressed just like the common laborer. Syamasundar: Marx says that industrial and scientific work is the highest kind of activity. Prabhupada: But unless the scientists and the industrialists receive sufficient profit, they will be reluctant to work for the state. Syamasundar: The Russian goal is the production of material goods for the enhancement of human well-being. Prabhupada: Their "human well-being" actually means, "If you don't agree with me, I'll cut your throat." This is their "well-being." Stalin had his idea of "human well-being," but anyone who disagreed with his version of it was killed or imprisoned. They may say that a few must suffer for the sake of many, but we have personally seen that Russia has achieved neither general happiness nor prosperity. For example, in Moscow none of the big buildings have been recently built. They are old and ravaged, or poorly renovated. Also, at the stores the people had to stand in long lines to make purchases. These are indications that economic conditions are unsound. God consciousness the final revolution Syamasundar: Marx considered religion an illusion that must be condemned. Prabhupada: The divisions between different religious faiths may be an illusion, but Marx's philosophy is also an illusion. Syamasundar: Do you mean that it's not being practiced? Prabhupada: In the sixty years since the Russian Revolution, his philosophy has become distorted. On the other hand, Lord Brahma began the Vedic religion countless years ago, and though foreigners have been trying to devastate it for the last two thousand years, it is still intact. Vedic religion is not an illusion, at least not for India. Syamasundar: Here is Marx's famous statement about religion. He says, "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of the heartless world, just as it is the spirit of the spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people." Prabhupada: He does not know what religion is. His definition is false. The <CITE>Vedas</CITE> state that religion is the course of action given by God. God is a fact, and His law is also a fact. It is not an illusion. Krishna gives the definition of religion in <CITE>Bhagavad-gita</CITE> [18.66]: <CITE>sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja</CITE>. To surrender unto God—this is religion. Syamasundar: Marx believes everything is produced from economic struggle and that religion is a technique invented by the bourgeoisie or the capitalists to dissuade the masses from revolution by promising them a better existence after death. Prabhupada: He himself has created a philosophy that is presently being enforced by coercion and killing. Syamasundar: And he promised that in the future things will be better. So he is guilty of the very thing that he condemns religion for. Prabhupada: As we have often explained, religion is that part of our nature which is permanent, which we cannot give up. No one can give up his religion. And what is that religion? Service. Marx desires to serve humanity by putting forward his philosophy. Therefore that is his religion. Everyone is trying to render some service. The father is trying to serve his family, the statesman is trying to serve his country, and the philanthropist is trying to serve all humanity. Whether you are Karl Marx or Stalin or Mahatma Gandhi, a Hindu, a Muslim, or a Christian, you must serve. Because we are presently rendering service to so many people and so many things, we are becoming confused. Therefore, Krishna advises us to give up all this service and serve Him alone: <CITE>sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja aham tvam sarva-papebhyo mokshayishyami ma shucah</CITE> "Abandon all varieties of service and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear." [<CITE>Bhagavad-gita</CITE> 18.66] Syamasundar: The communists—and even to a certain extent the capitalists—believe that service for the production of goods is the only real service. Therefore they condemn us because we are not producing anything tangible. Prabhupada: How can they condemn us? We are giving service to humanity by teaching the highest knowledge. A high-court judge does not produce any grains in the field. He sits in a chair and gets $25,000 or $30,000. Does that mean he is not rendering any service? Of course he is. The theory that unless one performs manual labor in the factory or the fields he is not doing service would simply give credit to the peasant and the worker. It is a peasant philosophy. There is a story about a king and his prime minister. Once the king's salaried workers complained, "We are actually working, and this minister is doing nothing, yet you are paying him such a large salary. Why is that?" The king then called his minister in and also had someone bring in an elephant. "Please take this elephant and weigh it," the king said to his workers. The workers took the elephant to all the markets, but they could not find a scale large enough to weigh the animal. When they returned to the palace the king asked, "What happened?" One of the workers answered, "Sir, we could not find a scale large enough to weigh the elephant." Then the king addressed his prime minister, "Will you please weigh this elephant?Yes, sir," said the prime minister, and he took the elephant away. He returned within a few minutes and said, "It weighs 11,650 pounds." All the workers were astonished. "How did you weigh the elephant so quickly?" one of them asked. "Did you find some very large scale?" The minister replied, "No. It is impossible to weigh an elephant on a scale. I went to the river, took the elephant on a boat, and noted the watermark. After taking the elephant off the boat, I put weights in the boat until the same watermark was reached. Then I had the elephant's weight." The king said to his workers, "Now do you see the difference?" One who has intelligence has strength, not the fools and the rascals. Marx and his followers are simply fools and rascals. We don't take advice from them; we take advice from Krishna or His representative. Syamasundar: So religion is not simply a police force to keep people in illusion? Prabhupada: No. Religion means to serve the spirit. That is religion. Everyone is rendering service, but no one knows where his service will be most successful. Therefore Krishna says, "Serve Me, and you will serve the spiritual society." This is real religion. The Marxists want to build a so-called perfect society without religion, yet even up to this day, because India's foundation is religion, people all over the world adore India. Syamasundar: Marx says that God does not create man; rather, man creates God. Prabhupada: That is more nonsense. From what he says, I can tell he is a nonsensical rascal and a fool. One cannot understand that someone is a fool unless he talks. A fool may dress very nicely and sit like a gentleman amongst gentlemen, but we can tell the fools from the learned men by their speech. Syamasundar: Marx's follower was Nikolai Lenin. He reinforced all of Marx's ideas and added a few of his own. He believed that revolution is a fundamental fact of history. He said that history moves in leaps, and that it progresses toward the communist leap. He wanted Russia to leap into the dictatorship of the proletariat, which he called the final stage of historical development. Prabhupada: No. We can say with confidence—and they may note it carefully—that after the Bolshevik Revolution there will be many other revolutions, because as long as people live on the mental plane there will be only revolution. Our proposition is to give up all these mental concoctions and come to the spiritual platform. If one comes to the spiritual platform, there will be no more revolution. As Dhruva Maharaja said, <CITE>natah param parama vedmi na yatra nadah:</CITE> "Now that I am seeing God, I am completely satisfied. Now all kinds of theorizing processes are finished." So God consciousness is the final revolution. There will be repeated revolutions in this material world unless people come to Krishna consciousness. Syamasundar: The Hare Krishna revolution. Prabhupada: The Vedic injunction is that people are searching after knowledge, and that when one understands the Absolute Truth, he understands everything. <CITE>Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati</CITE> (<CITE>Mundaka Upanishad</CITE> 1.3). People are trying to approach an objective, but they do not know that the final objective is Krishna. They are simply trying to make adjustments with so many materialistic revolutions. They have no knowledge that they are spiritual beings and that unless they go back to the spiritual world and associate with the Supreme Spirit, God, there is no question of happiness. We are like fish out of water. Just as a fish cannot be happy unless he is in the water, we cannot be happy apart from the spiritual world. We are part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit, Krishna, but we have left His association and fallen from the spiritual world because of our desire to enjoy this material world. So unless we reawaken the understanding of our spiritual position and go back home to the spiritual world, we can never be happy. We can go on theorizing for many lifetimes, but we will only see one revolution after another. The old order changes, yielding its place to the new. Or in other words, history repeats itself. Syamasundar: Marx says that there are always two conflicting properties in material nature, and that the inner pulsation of opposite forces causes history to take leaps from one revolution to another. He claims that the communist revolution is the final revolution because it is the perfect resolution of all social and political contradictions. Prabhupada: If the communist idea is spiritualized, then it will become perfect. As long as the communist idea remains materialistic, it cannot be the final revolution. They believe that the state is the owner of everything. But the state is not the owner; the real owner is God. When they come to this conclusion, then the communist idea will be perfect. We also have a communistic philosophy. They say that everything must be done for the state, but in our International Society for Krishna Consciousness we are actually practicing perfect communism by doing everything for Krishna. We know Krishna is the supreme enjoyer of the result of all work (<CITE>bhoktaram yajna- tapasam</CITE> [bg. 5.29]). The communist philosophy as it is now practiced is vague, but it can become perfect if they accept the conclusion of the <CITE>Bhagavad-gita</CITE>—that Krishna is the supreme proprietor, the supreme enjoyer, and the supreme friend of everyone. Then people will be happy. Now they mistrust the state, but if the people accept Krishna as their friend, they will have perfect confidence in Him, just as Arjuna was perfectly confident in Krishna on the battlefield of Kurukshetra. The great victory of Arjuna and his associates on the battlefield of Kurukshetra showed that his confidence in Krishna was justified: <CITE>yatra yogeshvarah krishno yatra partho dhanur-dharah tatra shrir vijayo bhutir dhruva nitir matir mama</CITE> "Wherever there is Krishna, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion." [<CITE>Bhagavad-gita</CITE> 18.78] So if Krishna is at the center of society, then the people will be perfectly secure and prosperous. The communist idea is welcome, provided they are prepared to replace the so-called state with God. That is religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbdas Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 er.... in your revolutionary mop-up ops, who will decide who lives and who are the 'demonic powers' that must perish? this is the inevitable result of a crusade. the problem with political types is they are so certain about what is best for humanity that they don't mind snuffing the dissenters. this has happenned in every revolution. as for the swp, i don't know about britain but here in the usa they are trotskyites. i know, my aunt and uncle were members and i belonged to the ysa. trotsky was responsible, with his 'anti-god society' for destroying more religious buildings and murdering more priests and nuns than hitler himself. solzhenitsyn says that in the gulag some folks reckoned "trotsky would have been WORSE than stalin" oh well, as long as your not a hypocrite and willing to carry out the killings yourself and not make your comrades do it for you! 'by our ideals are we known to others'--srila b.r. sridhar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 er....in your revolutionary mop-up ops, who will decide who lives and who are the 'demonic powers' that must perish? this is the inevitable result of a crusade. the problem with political types is they are so certain about what is best for humanity that they don't mind snuffing the dissenters. this has happenned in every revolution. as for the swp, i don't know about britain but here in the usa they are trotskyites. i know, my aunt and uncle were members and i belonged to the ysa. trotsky was responsible, with his 'anti-god society' for destroying more religious buildings and murdering more priests and nuns than hitler himself. solzhenitsyn says that in the gulag some folks reckoned "trotsky would have been WORSE than stalin" oh well, as long as your not a hypocrite and willing to carry out the killings yourself and not make your comrades do it for you! 'by our ideals are we known to others'--srila b.r. sridhar Very nice posting! I especially liked the succinct explanation of "trotskyites"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle Field Posted December 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 Kbdas, I do understand your concerns regarding the post revolutionary situation and my response is that revolutions do not require to be bloody. It is capitalism that is bloody laying waste to the human race with little concern for the future of the planet. That may be a hard pill to swallow but it is true. The ruling class is in the minority and the workers are the majority. It is true that the ruling class will lay waste to all who dare to rebel without discrection but that is not to say that the rebels need be so blood thirsty. I know you are going to want to spring up a million and one examples of blood letting for the sake of revolution but I would like to refer you to the experience of revolution in the Paris Commune in the late 1800's and also the current situation in Venezuala. My concern for the Post revolutionary situation has been expressed previously on this discussion but I will summarise briefly. We currently have a two class situation, bourgois and proletariat. this is not in line with Vedic thoughts on class society, it is an aberration which was brought about by the greed of the bourgeois revolutionaries who sought to rob the power of the corrupt kingly class. My argument is that these theives demons and usurpers are holding the development of the sankirtan movement back. By perverting the direction of society towards the unworthy goals of profit at any cost we are robbing human beings of the opportunity to take advantage of Lord Caitanya's mercy. From what I have learnt of actual Marxism and not the perverted reflection of it that we see through the eyes of bourgeois propagandists, then we will see that there is a way in which we can develop the sankirtan movment as Prabhupada intended and not become apologists for and slaves to the capitalist system. I understand your concerns about who might be killed after the revolution but I have not met a single socialist who relishes or concerns themselves with such ideas. We are not blood thirsty, we wish to act collectively to stop the activities of the blood thirsty. We wish to stop those who desire money at any cost and are willing to slaughter the innocent to achieve their goals. The reason I am addressing you with these issues is because my experience living in a Hari Krishna temple proved to me that as a movement we are too politically naive to develop the sankirtan movment and have simply become another money making organisation, struggling to survive in a corrupt society. I really wish I had access to the internet more regularly and then I could get back to you on this. I can see that some reference to Prabhupada's concerns on the matter have been listed and I would like direction to more such references so thanks. What I can tell from the references I've read, however, is that there is not much understanding of Marxism from Prabhupada's disciples at the time and for that reason I suspect Prabhupada has not been correctly informed as to what Marxist ideology is. That answers one of my questions at least and has made me feel more confident that I can maintain full conviction in Prabhupada's vani and not have to neglect the work I am involved in raising consciousness of God in my commrades and associates. Marxists don't want everybody to be the same and the maxim each according to his need to each according to their ability is perfectly applicable to vaishnava society. As for you BDM, you know there is no love lost between us, so you won't mind if I don't honour your comments with a respons, less to read them as they are usually filthy and contaminating. Although I have little respect for you I can certainly never envisage desiring or justifying yours or anyone else's death for the sake of revolution. Socialism is a fantastic tool for introducing people to the concept of consciousness expansion and its also a practical means to help people gain a sense of the world in which they live in. I wish I had had an opportunity to present those ideas to Prabhupada to see what he would have thought, but that I cannot do. I am not remotely convinced anyone as yet have convincingly responded to this with Prabhupada's mood and so I guess I'll never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 As for you BDM, you know there is no love lost between us, so you won't mind if I don't honour your comments with a respons, less to read them as they are usually filthy and contaminating. Although I have little respect for you I can certainly never envisage desiring or justifying yours or anyone else's death for the sake of revolution. Well from all the name calling you threw my way in the past - i'm quite sure i see here that your mood is as 'filthy and contaminating' as ever - my last posting on this thread wasn't even posted to you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Socialism is a fantastic tool for introducing people to the concept of consciousness expansion and its also a practical means to help people gain a sense of the world in which they live in. I wish I had had an opportunity to present those ideas to Prabhupada to see what he would have thought, but that I cannot do. I am not remotely convinced anyone as yet have convincingly responded to this with Prabhupada's mood and so I guess I'll never know. Prabupada knew all about socialism and communism you have nothing to teach him on this point - his world was sore impacted by the socialists and communists... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbdas Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 anyway, the swp is not socialist, it is communist and there is a difference. perhaps it can be explained here? Srila Prabhupad spoke about his opinion of marxism quite often i believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Once again Krsna consciousness is purified communism. Krsna is the only owner and controller of everything that be. How crude are the communists who claim the state owns everything within it. Perfect communism is found right in the first verses of Sri Isopanishad as spiritual or theistic communism. The atheistic communists only want to place themselves in place of God, therefore they are demons. Why would any devotee want to promote the atheistic communism of Marx and crew in preference to the perfect communism of Krsna consciousness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 Since socialism is strongly against the caste system and strives to dismantle any hierarchical social strucure, what is the Vaishnava view here on the caste system? Is it hereditary or based ones gunas? Strictly speaking it can't be both since no two brothers are the same, yet have the same parents. I've spoken to Vasihnavas from different sects about their view on the caste system and some say it is birth based while others say it is gunas and action based. According to the TV series on Ramayana and Mahabharata caste is determined by action only, but why is there those vasihnavas who ignore this and say it is by birth-family only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 Since socialism is strongly against the caste system and strives to dismantle any hierarchical social strucure, what is the Vaishnava view here on the caste system? Is it hereditary or based ones gunas? Strictly speaking it can't be both since no two brothers are the same, yet have the same parents. I've spoken to Vasihnavas from different sects about their view on the caste system and some say it is birth based while others say it is gunas and action based. According to the TV series on Ramayana and Mahabharata caste is determined by action only, but why is there those vasihnavas who ignore this and say it is by birth-family only? By gunas as I understand it. Like a child born in a the family of a doctors he has an extra advantage of learning the science of medicine and becoming a doctor himself. But until he himself completes medical school and passes all qualifications he cannot practice medicine as a Dr. We see that two brothers born in the family of Dr.s turn out differently. One may complete the process and become a Dr. also while the other may turn out to be a drug dealer. Birth has it's advantages but gunas rule in the end. Basically all are born sudras and gro from there. In this kali-yuga that growth is severly stunted. basically 99% remain sudras some with vaisya or ksatriya or even brahmana tendancies but usually the sudra aspect remains fairly dominant. Best not to bother with the idea of caste as the dominant active gunas become obvious in a person as he lives their life. Other than that is is impossible to tell who is btahmana or sudra, Another and even better reason to lay caste considerations aside is that suc are based solely on material criteria. Real vision is to see everyone equally as spiritual parts of Krsna and relate to them as such. This vision not only takes us beyond the caste system but even beyond all other forms of material vision impairments. Unlike the gross atheist communism of recent experience ,theistic communism based on Krsna consciousness so all species of life are also seen as citizens with rights to life being respected. This means no animal slaughter is allowed. Trees are respected and deforestation is prohibited. The environment is kept clean because it is a God-given duty for man to be the caretaker of the Earth and all it's inhabitants. When compared point for point with anything the atheistic communists have to offer Krsna consciousness is far and away the better choice. Even accepting the good and valuable points the atheistic communist may sometimes offer those very points find their perfection only when dovetailed to Krsna concious understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brajeshwara das Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 I have experienced such a great advancement in my spiritual development in the association of socialists than I ever did in the association of "devotees". My understanding is that when you are experiencing real advancement you become more humble, tolerant, and respectful, and the last thing I would expect to hear from and advancing devotee is 'I have experienced such great advancement'. Please don't take this statement the wrong way prabhu, I'm just seeing something that may help you to understand what is a devotee and what is real advancement. Socialism is there to address material issues where people are being exploited, right? Vaisnavism is there to break the desire in us where we want to be the exploiters, and make us see that really we are to be exploited by the Lord. So really we aren't seeking freedom from exploitation, just the opposite. But we don't want to be exploited by false advertising offering us happiness in this material world through the explotation of other jivas, we don't want to be the demons eating the cows. We want sweetness and we want ecstacy; we want eternal, conscious, pure love. We want to take our natural position and serve. If the jivas can truly engage in Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement the natural outcome will be that which you seek. Nothing more is necessary. If you really want to embrace Vaisnavism, find a Guru you can follow that resonates truth inside your heart and surrender to him. Everything is there in a bonafide Guru, nothing is missing that needs to supplimented with materialistic conceptions of equality or justice. The Lord is boyond that. Reality is beyond our mortal conceptions. Cultivate your faith in the service of the sadhu and you will surely benefit. Please forgive my offenses, my intentions were to be helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle Field Posted February 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 I don't accept such advancement as being the result of my own endeavours. This is the key. I am grateful and respectful to so many people for helping me to understand the world in which I live and the one in which I am beginning to believe it is possible to live. i do not expect others to bow down and worship my greatness. that is not my mood at all. I am not great. I am grateful. This is the difference. When we are grateful for the knowledge we receive we become enthusiastic to pass it on to others. I am not telling you that I am great. I am not. I have troubled myself over simple issues all my life and will continue to do so until I draw my dying breath. I can only hope that I continue to be a grateful recipient of knowledge. I consume knowledge, but knowledge is God. Therefore I consume God. I am aware of this. This is not a pure and respectful mentality. i hope that at some point I will deveop a respectful attitude, then my true love of God will be realised. This does not detract from the issue that the association of socialists, not all but some, has served to develop my consciousness to the point where I value the importance of the association of humble personalities; personalities who recognise that there are more important goals in life than the satiation of ones own senses. My concern is how to alleviate myself of the troublesome cycle of samsara. This is not in any way the desire of a true and great devotee. I stubb my toe I feel pain, not to mention the pain of death which would consume me like raging fire and subject me to the indignity of rebirth. Please do not mistake me for someone who is so foolish as to think that my trials within this world are over. They are not. I am as entangled as the next soul who's fears and desires lie within the taunts of this mystifiying world. I only speak with a desire to encourage others of a similar faith and level of realisation to look at the world they live in with a greater scrutinity than they may perceive is necessary to follow this path, the path Prabhupada has laid bare before us. I have had the association for 5 years of my life of those who profess to follow Prabhupada, yet these people had nothing of his compassion or knowledge. i have sold Prabhupada's books and have been encouraged to do so as a salesperson, not as an advocate as a better way of life. What I have learnt in the association of socialists is that the key to propogating a better way of life is having the analytical skills to understand how such a life is possible. May I ask you? Do you understand why we wage wars on the middle east? Why do people living in 1st world countries starve to death? Why women are forced by the powers of economic immiseration to suffer the indignity of prostitution? Why when we are so advanced with techonological prowess do we still strive for the highest profit at the lowest outlay? Why devotees throughout the world are subject to torture, poverty, starvation and ruination? I suggest to you it is because capitalism as an economic system is totally and utterly opposed to Vaishnavism. It is demonism of the kind that is outlined within the tenth chapter of the Bhagavad Gita. On the other hand socialism, in my experience of socialising with socialists and digesting socialist ideas whilst maintaining a furious commitment to Prabhupada's mission of establishing the cult of Vaishnavism throughout the globe, has brought me to the conclusion that there is no contradiction between Vaishnava culture and the ideals of the socialist movement. If you do not believe that I would suggest it is because you have never had the opportunity as I have been so fortunate to have of associating with socialists. My joy comes from having the opportunity to show to them that God values their commitment to the betterment of human society and in so doing to awaken some of the most compassionate souls alive today of the value of learning to love Krishna. I am the servant of the servant of the servant. Dasi anu dasi anu dasi. i would not wish it to be any other way. I hope this goes some measure to answering your query. If you still feel that I am proud and desirous to impact upon others the grandiosity of my knowledge let it be known fully that the knowledge I am propogating is not of my own creation. It is a gift that I am obviously incapable of passing on to any kind of meaningful effect. Although it pains my heart that this is so I hope that others will follow who are more effective in their preaching and can inspire you to see that there is value in socialist beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brajeshwara das Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 One of my very best old-time friends was intricately involved in the SWP leadership, as was his family and I went to plenty of rallies and lectures etc. I know all about it. I had a subscription to The Militant for years. In the end I found them lacking in true understanding of the problem at hand, with no effective way to address it. The reason for all the suffering in this world is simple: selfish interest and exploitation of others. If everyone were to become devotees, their interest would be Krsna's interest and we would live in peace and prosperity for all. And I'm not talking about shaved heads and doties, but internal devotion within most humans. Really being devotees in their hearts. No more exploitation, just service. But the reality is this material world is the land of exploitation, though you can work to limit it you will not remove exploitation. A lion and a lamb are exploiting, will you convince them? We have to get out of this burning world and take as many with us as we can on our way out. It certainly can improve the material situation as well for people in general if we work to propogate the Sankirtan movement, we should put everything we have towards that goal. The Socialists see the everyone as workers. That's an improvement from the capitalists' view that all are exploiters, but better to see everyone as a servants of the Lord. That is reality. We need to see everyone as spirit souls who are not these bodies. Do Socialists teach or agree with that? I don't think so. They reinforce a false sense of who we are and what our purpose is, and we need to move beyond that. Ask your socialist friends if they can equate themselves as servants. If so, servants to who? Without theistic thought it will go nowhere. I appreciate the core of socialism 'we want to end exploitation' but really our rallying cry is 'we want to serve.' I know you see them as similar and they are addressing the same basic issue in a sense, but their understanding is purely materialistic and so is their solution. It is inadequate. That they hate exploitation is good though, and you should try and teach them how God should play the central role in their struggle against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 "The Socialists see the everyone as workers. That's an improvement from the capitalists' view that all are exploiters, but better to see everyone as a servants of the Lord" ------------------------------ I would think that since many people would become socialists because they see how the people in general can get exploited by those who have poweer, they may be inclined to fear such tendencies (to exploit those under you) could be in God, and as such might be less inclined to trust and turn to religion (which unfortunately is often not the same as turning to God) but instead trust themselves to try to fix things in the world around them. All to often tho, those who rise to the top in such groups (be it comunism or simple unions) may end up primarily making a better life for themselves and think of those "under" them a distant second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brajeshwara das Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 "The Socialists see the everyone as workers. That's an improvement from the capitalists' view that all are exploiters, but better to see everyone as a servants of the Lord"------------------------------ I would think that since many people would become socialists because they see how the people in general can get exploited by those who have poweer, they may be inclined to fear such tendencies (to exploit those under you) could be in God, and as such might be less inclined to trust and turn to religion (which unfortunately is often not the same as turning to God) but instead trust themselves to try to fix things in the world around them. All to often tho, those who rise to the top in such groups (be it comunism or simple unions) may end up primarily making a better life for themselves and think of those "under" them a distant second. Yes, very good point. I think the best thing for Vaisnavas is not to compromise our philosophy to make it acceptable to the general public. Work on the packaging of course, make it attractive, but nothing is missing from it that needs to be supplemented with Socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 "I think the best thing for Vaisnavas is not to compromise our philosophy to make it acceptable to the general public. Work on the packaging of course, make it attractive, but nothing is missing from it that needs to be supplemented with Socialism." Why even worry if it packaged in an attractive package ? In my own life I have managed to get several people cracking open books just by being me. The see the once drugged out violent child standing in front of them with a serene smile and they ask. As to the topic of this thread socialism is just as bad as capatalism or any other system for that matter because instead of looking at the true source of evil it seeks to impose its own rules and laws. I know plenty of evil socialists and good capatalists and visa versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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