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Danielle Field

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Everything posted by Danielle Field

  1. Again, Samia, you've missed the point. I have said several times that I don't consider my position to be final or that I am blessed with all the answers required to support my current position. I came here for help understanding my position and all you've given me is consistent torrent of anti-commie bile. Even when I say things like "I've made mistakes in the past and I'm sure I will make mistakes again" or "I don't know what it will take to make the world a better place" you still bite back at me as if I'm a member of the Imperial Guard. I've been lucky enough to find a group of people who are willing to listen and understand and have a more thorough, if critical, understanding of socialism than you, so I won't be approaching you for any assistance any further. I don't know how you could ever hope to help anybody. You certainly haven't helped me because you haven't listened to a word I have said. Your responses are prepackaged and I have certainly heard them all before. No need to hear it from you too. Before you answer, did you actually read any of that? Really? Are you sure you're sure?
  2. Well, at least you two have met each other on here, so thats a nice thing, isn't it? cups always half full, thats what I say. Always look on the bright side. Maybe you could both have a discussion that you're actually interested in instead of hijacking subjects on which you know nothing about. All my love xxx
  3. Its very hard and frustrating to talk to someone who isn't listening is all. Be honest, you haven't read most of the posts I've written, have you? You just think I'm an extremist little banner waver who doesn't deserve to be listened to, so why talk? My point is that you've thought that from the very moment that you saw this discussion posted. You've completely ignored the parts where I have explained how and why I came to these conclusions and why I want help understanding that and, frankly, being rude to me in the hopes that I'd go away hasn't helped at all.
  4. Apology accepted Samia. Although I would prefer it if you apologised for having adopted numerous personalities on this forum in order to sabotage my position. I suspect the reason the people you work with on your welfare projects are more respectful to you because you think more carefully about what you are going to say to them than you do to me. If you weren't one of them would probably have hit you by now. I have to add also, the thought of someone working on community welfare projects harbouring such spiteful predjudices towards some of the most vulnerable groups in society is, frankly, disturbing. As for being a low life scum, no, Vikram, I am not. I have a very long fuse, but when its blows you know about it. A lot of that is due to the abuse i received at the hands of ISKCON and from various other aspects of this life of which I grow tired. Socialism has taught me a lot of important lessons about how to stop hating myself and others and I wanted to discuss this with people who had maybe had similar experiences. I didn't come here on a recruitment drive. Unfortunately I have been treated as though I am and all the scorn people harbour for the word socialism has been poured on me and it has had its effect. Every time I come on this forum I get called stupid, ignorant, thoughtless, heartless, worthless, it seems now most of those insults have been coming from the same person pretending to be a group in order to bolster their position. In truth I don't even know now if the two of you are the same person. Bit creepy in truth. There is only so much of that taunting, teasing, deriding and, frankly, bullying I can take. I wish I had enough self respect to just walk away from it all, and I did for a good length of time. I was hoping after having left it for a while things might be different, especially now BDM has gone. But no, cos you're still there aren't you Samia. Still waiting to pounce every time I speak with your callous one liners.
  5. I'm done. I thought it was about time to come back and address these issues again but it just really upsets me when people are callous and disrespectful and I hate falling down to that level. Internet forums probably aren't the best place to pursue these discussions. They certainly don't bring out the best in people that's for sure.
  6. Ah! The reek of predjudice. Anti semitism, Islamaphobia as well I bet and some choice opinions on people of all creeds that differ from you own sectarian interests I'll warrant. You two really are filled with fear of your fellow humans aren't you? Fear for your own lives, you wretched fools! Prabhupada didn't fear the hippies but everyone told him they were demons and that they deserved to go to hell. You will never know true love like Prabhupada taught until you learn to confront those fears. By the way Samia, where's BDM these days? Good to see you striking out on your own, or has he still got his finger on your controls? How exactly are you going to "wake me up" when you are wedge deep in the myre of predjudice? You really should be ashamed of yourself for harbouring so much hate.
  7. There is a system that has brought about more misery to human culture than any other and that is Capitalism, beginning with the slave trade and the subsequent commodification of human life that has attended all of capitalism's history. It is a murderous and bloody system. It is perpetuated through warfare and yet I hear devotees always defending the principle tenets of capitalism as if they are arcane and divine. it is this I am challenging. Yes attempts to overthrow capitalism have been bloody and yes Stalin's regime was bloody. Stalin was a psycho and the Russian revolution failed to extend internationally largely due to Stalin's successful efforts to subvert the revolution and resume the Russian Imperial project to his own advantage, much as Napoleon did to France after the French revoltuion. Yet again I am not here to convert you to socialism only to open your eyes to the fact that capitalism is an abhorent economic system for all the reasons Marx laid out in his works. The dominant economic order needs to be overthrown in order to allow devotional life to develop (as previously stated) and socialists are more committed to changing the world than self satisfied little "devotees" who are only interested in the development of their own spiritual advancement and don't concern themselves with the project of revolutionising society along the lines of devotional principles. Capitalism is in crisis and the tenure of human beings on earth is under great and real threat. Do you agree, or do you think, as many have suggested in this discussion that capitalism rules OK?
  8. I would advise that you study Prabhupada's books and become proficient at practising Krishna Consciousness in your own home before you consider joining a temple. I was given that advice before I joined in 1995 and I chose to ignore it. As a consequence of ignoring that advice I ended up getting exploited for 5 years by an ISKCON guru who has recently been denounced by the movement, Balabhadra Das. As a result of that exploitation I never had the time to read and study Prabhupada's books properly as we were constantly told the highest service was to sell the books (ie get lots of money for his divine grace). I was young, naive and impressionable. I never approached him to be my guru but after having lived there for a year I was told I was ready for initiation and before I knew it I was Sita Sundari devi dasi. ISKCON knew of his exploitative practices and benefitted from the money he provided, it was only when he started with holding that money that ISKCON investigated him and finally found out the extent of his abuses. I was kicked out of the temple long before he started sexually abusing his female disciples but from the way things were going, as long ago as 2000, the seeds of his downfall were already evident and he was making crude and unsavoury allusions to what the women got up to behind closed doors. ISKCON has not fully recovered from the problems inherent in its controversial past largely because it keeps promoting people like Balabhadra to the status of Guru when the only skill they have is to exploit people to make money. Balabhadra's attitude to women was always derogatory and offensive even before he was made guru and for the duration of his guru ship he never allowed the women seperate rooms or beds. We slept six to a box bedroom on a lino floor. ISKCON knew this but it needs money because of all the law suits it has had to pay out for people suing them for abuse, so it turns a blind eye to current abuses as is convenient for it. I only say this out of a desire to protect you in a way that others couldn't do for me. Prabhupada certainly didn't want people to practise Krishna Consciousness in isolation but there are dangers inherent in joining temples before your spiritual discretion has fully matured. False guru's prey on naivety and sentimentality and until aspiriant vaishnavas have found their feet by practising the regulative principles (maybe not strictly at first but certainly practising), developing a taste for the holy name and most importantly reading his books then they are prone to abuse. Remember Prabhupada himself didn't take initiation until he was in his 30's. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you really need to be warned about ISKCON gurus before you end up in a vulnerable situation like I got myself into. Go to the temple, join in the feast and the kirtan, listen to the classes, but be discerning and if you feel you are being manipulated don't do what I did and just ignore that instinct and put it down to being a neophyte.
  9. One of Balabhadra's greatest charms was his role as a father figure to his disciples. He made you feel like he understood you and, unlike so many other ISKCON gurus he thought it was important to know the names of all his disciples, to recognise their faces and to try and lend support when they were experiencing times of emotional difficulty. Balabhadra's greatest fault was his fundamentalism which was the very cause of him being made a guru. He saw things in black and white. He saw his mission as pushing his disciples so hard through a hole so small that only the soul could come out. He truly believed he was doing everything in his power to send us back to Godhead. What he failed to understand was the importance of was giving us time to read and to associate with each other, essential pillars of vaihsnava culture. As far as he saw it the highest service to Prabhupada was to sell his books, that was how Balabhadra had achieved his route to salvation and, in his own simple way, he felt that was the best way to get us home back to Godhead also; very little other than this mattered to him. This fundamentalism meant that he was very good at generating money and it was for this reason, not his vision as a spiritual leader, that the avaricious motion was put forward to make him a guru. He got very ill at the thought of being a guru and passed out frequently. Doubtless he craved the prestige but he did have conscience enough to question his ability. Unfortunatley the GBC didn't have conscience enough to advise him wisely and thus it came to pass that a fundamentalist zealot was given power of attorney over the lives of a group of wide eyed neophytes and do with them as he saw fit. For the greater part Balabhadra's spiritual direction was seemingly faultless according to ISKCON law. Spend every waking moment thinking of Krishna, work diligently in your service. Don't waste a second not serving. We chanted 21 rounds a day and were encouraged to chant constantly even whilst performing our service. Temple life was very strict and controlled but we never questioned it because we were constantly engaged in service and the whole temple compound was devoted to facilitating that service. What we didn't have time for was reading, that was the main problem for me personally. When we complained of this we were chastised and told that knowledge came through service, that Mother Ratnaranjini had attained her salvation through service and a thorough knowledge of but a handful of slokas. Balabhadra surely had some kind of a breakdown after Mother Ratnaranjini's departure which I witnessed but at the time didn't recognise. He needed good direction, instead he was told to take up the renounced order of life. He needed time to be with his family and to think. Good advice at this time would have been maybe to allow him time to be with his family, to think about in time maybe taking another wife, to consider whether guruship without the aid of his beloved confidant and mother would be possible at all. But instead the cash registers clanged and the clock kept ticking. Living at Karuna Bhavan was a very lonely and depressing experience for me but during that time I developed a very strong attachment to the Holy Name which hasn't left me. I sometimes chant in my sleep and whenever I experience distress the Holy Name leaps out. Before I have time to think, I chant. I have Balabhadra to thank for this and, of course, Prabhupada. He didn't let me stop thinkinng of the Holy Name. For this reason I believe, although not a guru, he was a very good influence on my devotional service in many ways. I do not know who he is supposed to have punched or sexually abused. All I can say is that for the five years I lived in his association I never witnessed such things, and certainly never experienced them myself. I know that Balabhadra was in a very lonely place and for this reason I do not fully doubt it. I do not think we have seen the last of Balabhadra and, with proper guidance and association his zeal and sincerity could be put to good use, but in the hands of the GBC they were misdirected and abused. I suggest to you that we are all victims of the GBC, Balabhdra included, and if you want to judge anybody that would be the best place to start. To judge the powerless and the duped is the action of a coward who daren't confront corrupt authority.
  10. OK. I'll try and respond to that in due course. I have done already if you want to just look at the rest of the conversation that has gone before though. Maybe I'll just cut and paste it sometime. I've really lost my drive to get into this though. I came here for answers and I'm just not getting any so I'm not really so inclined to keep it up I'm afraid. I haven't got enough time to keep going over the same territory and not get any answers. Believe what you want about socialism. I really don't care. I'm not a zealot, I'm just a lost soul looking for answers and I've got the "my guru was just a fat bloke in a dress" blues. Best wishes xxx
  11. I don't think Muslim's are any more fundamentalist than Hare Krishna's that refuse to see anything in terms other than black and white.
  12. Prabhupada said that women's brains were half the size of a men's and yet this is scientifically incorrect. We know this. Prabhupada made a mistake because he had been falsely informed by erroneous persons that this was why women were less intelligent than men. Is that a reason to reject the validity of his work? No it isn't. I despise sexism and sexists but I genuinely don't care that Prabhupada made this mistake. Many of the chauvanisms of his time were evident in Prabhupada's initial work but he himself was transcendent to them. They were incidental and didn't interfere with the importance of the spiritual message they contained. When corrected on this issue he didn't demand that the whole of scientific enquiry needed to be reorientated to compensate this mistake. This is because he had humility and was focused on the goal of spreading Krishna Consciousness. I believe that the issue of the moon's distance from the Earth is utterly inconsequential to the value of the Bhagavatam. I believe that the information that was available at the time of its writing determined that that was the way things were and so it did not matter at the time if it was right or wrong. The purport of the Bhagavatam is spotless. Even if some miscreant covered the Bhagavatam in excrement it would still be spotless. Why freak out about whether or not this particular aspect is true or not? I don't care because the Bhagavatam has fundamentally impacted upon my life in a positive manner. I don't care that Prabhupada thinks that men are superior to women even though in my daily life I experience that the least accountable and selfish group of people in the world, and indeed the most destructive are men. If your faith was so unshakeable that you could speak with such vindication on matters of this nature then, paradoxically, matters of this nature really wouldn't bother you so deeply. Are there any discussions on this forum that don't contain insufferable and dull quantities of Vaishnava Aparadha? I'm sure Prabhupada would not be impressed or enlivened by any of the discussions on this forum that I have seen so far because they all end in offences. I wish I wasn't such a fool as to want to keep visiting it. Its proper car crash entertainment. I've realised from experience that anyone who comes on this website, myself included, thinking that they are going to advance their consciousness and the consciousness of others is sadly delusional. Guruvani, your chastisements are not justified because you can see they are not making a difference. Whatever it is you are trying to say, its not being heard, is it? Be honest with yourself about why you are doing it. I'm only saying this because I'm being honest with myself about it. Who cares what we think, really? Who would take the bickering back biting rubbish on this website seriously, other than people like ourselves who obviously take ourselves a bit too seriously?
  13. If they're saying that the Bhagavatam says the Earth is flat then I guess they haven't even looked at the front cover let alone read it. I'm just poking my nose in I suppose. Maybe they're just trying to get a rise out of you. Best to ignore them. Have a look at that book though. Its by Shukavak Dasa. It really reorientated by thinking, anyway. Good luck.
  14. I read a book called Hindu Encounters with Modernity that I bought from the Soho street temple in London which helped me to reconcile the disparity between material science and the Bhagavatam. It is about Bhaktivinode Thakur's successful attempt to bring a rational empiric sense to the more superstitious interpretations of the Bhagavatam. Its about much more than that also and I strongly recommend you read it. This is a thorny issue and not one that devotees should be rowing about. And Guruvani, I strongly recommend that if you are trying to spread the light of the bhagavat in the world that you don't make the gross mistake of telling people not to read it because they are impure. you've gone way off the mark there I'm afraid and I am proof positive Prabhupada wouldn't approve.
  15. I don't know what it is going to take to clean up the planet and make it fit to be offerable to Krishna but I do feel that it is possible because Prabhupada said it was. When I stop believing that then I stop believing in Prabhupada and I don't want that because I need to believe in Prabhupada. I am speaking from personal experience mostly and trying to get some input as to how to understand my current position. Also I wanted to spark off a discussion between advanced devotees regarding this issue and not necessarily get everyone to change to my way of thinking. I have been wrong about many, many things in the past and I'm not so confident as to demand everyone accept my thoughts without analysis, discussion and feedback. Living in an ISKCON temple was beneficial for me in that I leant about the practice of Krishna consciousness and I still know lots of bhajans and have a strong attachment for chanting the holy name. I am certainly grateful for that. The temple was very damaging for me in many ways, however, because what drove me to ashram life was an utter conviction in the inherent good in all living beings which I found mirrored in Prabhupadas writing. This ethic was utterly absent in the temple. I am aware that most people are selfish but I know from my own experience that I was a very individualistic person before I joined the temple. It was the study of sociology at college that drove me to spiritual thinking and commitment. it opened me up to the belief that people could change, the world could change and that social systems prescribe perameters on people's awareness that prevent them from understanding themselves at a fundamental level. When I left the temple I studied social policy and this was such a welcome relief because it helped me understand why living in an ISKCON temple had hardened my heart as opposed to softening it. I have spoken at length about this a few pages ago so it feels incredibly self indulgent to go over it here again. I'm sorry you think i speak in slogans. I don't, I speak from the heart. I don't quote Marx or even Prabhupada for that matter because I am a very passionate person and things flow out of my head with very little in the way of control or premeditation. Anyhoo, the boss is coming. Got to go. Just squeezing in another bit. Capitalism as I've said previously is an anachronism. It is not natural or normal. Whatever way we overthrow it I don't mind. I am a socialist but there are many people out there who are anti capitalist without being socialist and I'm fine with that. In the Srimad Bhagavatam we learn about how Ksatriyas have historically overthrown the brahmin class and the kind of chaos this reaked on society. What I am proposing here is that we have misunderstood what capitalism is. In the middle ages we were ruled by kings but is was the merchants who overthrew the kings and created a world according to vaishya principles. When I was a part of ISKCON we were told that all the trappings of varnashrama dhama were there except for the brahmin class but I don't think we do have kings now. Our royal family in Britain are a tourist attraction and as such they have affiliated themselves with the vaishya class. I hope you can have a think about this and get back to me about this thought specifically.
  16. I haven't got much access to the internet, thats why I got so frustrated with you. I had a good run there because of my job and it got totally consumed in going over stuff that I've already written about here. I think you do not understand what a socialist really is and therefore you are attacking my position without really understanding it. Mao said change must come through the barrel of a gun but I am not a Maoist so I don't believe that. I do know, however, that the ruling class are armed and are not going to give up there position without a fight. Stalin said that one death is a tragedy but 100,000 is a statistic. Thats because he was a psychopath. I am neither a psychopath nor a Stalinist. Marx was a very wise man despite the constant attacks he suffered at the hands of the establishment. He never prescribed what a socialist society would look like because he believed it was beyond the scope of a single individual to orchestrate the whole of society without that society becoming a tyranny. As such every dictator who has ever espoused socialist ideas have fundamentally misunderstood and perverted Marx's principle teachings. My plan is to do whatever I can to empower people to overcome the drug of illusion. I believe that awakening people to the corruption of the current system is a fantastic way to do that. This doesn't detract from the importance of telling people about the truth of God as it is intrinsically linked with that project. Today's rulers are demonic and they degrade the consciousness of the whole planet. If we change the current system to one that doesn't favour demons and despots more people would feel the power to express their true consciousness as spirit souls. From some of your exerpts I would say that you are of the school of belief that says that it is human nature to be selfish and that we have to fight against this on an individual basis. While I believe that the instinct of survival is a localised one within every individual I believe that the current economic system actively encourages and rewards selfish behaviour and that without changing that system most people in the world are never going to have the opportunity or the inclination to explore their higher nature. thats all I've got time for now. Hope that puts us on better terms. I'm really not here to fight even though I know a lot of what I say is incredibly contentious.
  17. You are so judgemental. You are an incredibly critical and rude person and you are not adding anything of value to the debate by attacking me personally. I am not telling you to give up your devotional service to become a revolutionary. I am not telling you to become a socialist and calling you an idiot for not being and yet you seem to think its free season on me. Well it isn't and you should know better. Vaishnavas are armed with the etiquette to debate with reason. You are clearly someone who is just so inimical to socialism that you cannot reason successfully and resort to hair pulling and name calling. If you had any intention of taking this debate seriously your postings would not be so short, abusive and incoherent. This debate has run on for 5 pages and began with a sincere inquiry by myself to find out what if any contradictions there are with my being a socialist and a vaishnava. Periodically someone such as your self crops up and just spits venom without actually helping me understand this situation. I am not so conceited that I think everyone must accept my point of view and so I do not understand what possesses you to be so dismissive and uncooperative. Socialism doesn't bring love of godhead, I am aware of that. Only vaishnava seva can do that. However, if you'd read my responses respectfully you would understand that. I request that you familiarise yourself with the information being presented and respond respectfully or go and find someone who is interested in spatting with you. This is not a game and it is very frustrating for me as I sincerely want to engage in this debate with serious people. I started this debate because I am interested in socialism and particularly spiritual communism. There is no such thing as spiritual capitalism and I would beg that you bear that in mind before you put finger to keyboard again. If you think I am wrong that is fine, many people if not most do. I am used to it. That does not mean that it is ok for you to be so disrespectful to me. I am not an abusive person and am sincere in my objectives. Why are you so inimical to me that you are not even prepared to reason with me respectfully? Many people on this site have disagreed with me and that is fine but I will not tolerate this aggressive and unrepentant abuse from you. You are not attacking socialism right now you are attacking an aspirant vaishnava who is feeling a strong desire for direction and guidance. If you cannot offer that then why do you wish to speak?
  18. At which point did I argue for a socialism that wasn't God centred? You're not very thorough are you? I own and read the Isopanishad and nothing in the extract above actively contradicts what I am arguing for here. I am not arguing for socialism in and of itself because socialism isn't God centred but there is more place for sacred values to develop and flourish in a socialist society than a capitalist one. Labour is sacred. It is a devotional act. It is the way in which the spirit soul achieves communion with Krishna not only in the material world but beyond into the spiritual world. Labour/service is our dharma. We agree so far? Yes? Labour in a capitalist economy is not orientated around the principle of spiritual emanciapation, rather it is orientated around the principle of profit. People's spiritual emancipation through their labour has no place in a capitalist society. Tasks are broken down and made meaningless and monotonous. Social care isn't remunerated highly whereas vicious market traders can make millions in minutes through gambling and cheating. Labour shouldn't be alienating and Prabhupada explains in the very verse in the Isopanishad that you have selected why labour itself is and should be liberating. We should be able to engage in those activities that enable us to live simple devotional lives whilst meditating on our spiritual goals. This society does not advocate that. Marx exposed how the prinicples of capitalism sit entiriely in contradiction to human need for stability, security and productive mental and spiritual engagement. Yes Marx spoke about spirituality, a secular spirituality, but spirituality none the less. Marx argued that the reason labour has become so alienating is because it is not orientated first and foremost around the need for spiritual and physical nourishment. The mode of production we currently adhere to in this world treats human beings as cumbersome and expensive machinery. As Henry Ford once bemoaned "why do people keep sending me human beings when all I need is a pair of hands?" Basic community services have been sacrificed for profit. The elderly and disabled are shored up in homes away from society due to their lack of economic value. As a socialist I am fighting against a system that fails to treat human beings and all life for that matter, as sacred. I am fighting a system that fails to feed and clothe the majority of the world's population when we have never lived in times more plentiful. Yes I did march at the G8 summit and I am engaged in a variety of coalition campaigns such as Make Poverty History and Stop The War as part of my work as a socialist to bring peace to this earth to make it fit for human habitation and development. What on earth have I said that has suggested to you in any way that I would not wish to engage in such activities? Is it that I haven't said them and your predjudice has led you to assume what I am thinking? If I were a great devotee I may have taken offence. Vaishnava aparadha, best to be cautious, huh? Prabhupada's vision of a golden age on earth was oriented around a return to a feudal way of life. Indeed varnashrama dhama is essentially a feudal system with gradations of class determined according to nature. Capitalism is not a feudal system, nor is socialism. In that sense neither of us are actually arguing to implement what Prabhupada ordered. My concern is that Iskcon has stopped acting as a revolutionary organisation and has thereby aligned itself with capitalist interests. As such I feel the need to invigorate Iskcon with revolutionary thinking. Studying socialist ideas has given me some insight into how and why revolutions are necessary and why as Prabhupada's army we should not be so squeamish about social change. You wish to maintain the status quo? Why when this is demon society? I am arguing for a revolutionary change to society because we need it and Prabhupada demanded it. This society was produced through revolution and all major shifts in the economic order are achieved this way. Capitilism is an abberation that was born in the blood of the slave trade. It is hellish economic order. We should be fighting capitalism to bring about varnashrama dhama, any suggestions? One possible and in many ways most probable solution to this quandry is that a massive cataclysm will hit the earth and massively reduce the earth's population. This would force us back into a feudal mode of production. If that doesn't happen, though, and we manage to stop capitalism gorging itself on the subtle forces that keep this world turning then the only way that is going to be achieved is through the workers overthrowing their wanton rulers. They are the only class in society with the numbers and the power to do it. Your argument is that this society doesn't need to change, therefore you are not offering any insight as to how we can reinvigorate Prabhupada's movement. Prabhupada came to save the world not just a few well meaning individuals. Saving the world means changing the world. Prabhupada Jagat Guru ki jai!
  19. Well there's a well informed and illuminating posting for you folks. That really reorientated my beliefs. Why bother putting a posting on like that? It wastes your time, my time and anybody who chooses to read it. You obviously haven't assessed any of the previous information disucussed or added anything of value to the debate. Sounds to me like someone who likes sitting and griping and criticising others. To become spiritually aware you must first become materially aware. Prabhupada's dictum, not mine.
  20. Hey Celina. I'd overlooked your response. Sorry about that. I'm a bit like Tinkerbell in the Peter Pan film. I only seem to notice the negative responses and then I just end up being a bit rude to people who are supportive. I've never heard of BAPS before so I'm going to have to research all that info, but I thought I'd just write you a quick note to say thanks and acknowledge your response. One thing I would like to know before I begin researching is what your position on Prabhupada is? In truth I have only been exposed to Prabhupada's teachings and the fear of propogating a position contradictory to his wishes sits heavily on my heart. I do find myself contradicting Prabhupada's teachings regarding socialism, but I feel confident that this is because Prabhupada was challenging a perverted analysis of state socialsim which is a mockerey of socialist priniciples in essence. This is essentially why I began this thread. I have not got anywhere within Isckon trying to advocate this position and if I can find a sympathetic ear elsewhere then the temptation is very strong. I am convinced that Prabhupada projected the light of the Bhagavat and would feel very compromised if I was forced to challenge this perception.
  21. The problem here is that you are referring to state led demand management systems as socialist. They are not. They are a way of smoothing over the cracks in capitalism. Capitalism is a global system. It couldn't function any other way. Stalinist Russia was a state capitalist society not a socialist one. Stalin led Russia as one large corporation that related to the wider world through this prism. So the problem here is defining what we mean by socialism and capitalism. If you could begin to accept that we are living in a society that operates for and solely facilitates the wishes of the vaishya class then you would see that it is not a question of who rules, it is the system that corrupts. It doesn't matter whether or not Tony Blair or George Bush are privately good men, or bad men for that matter. Their job is to secure business interests. Anyone can go into bourgeois politics with whatever good intentions they wish. It makes no difference. The system itself services greed. This system that services greed has infected Prabhupada's once proud society. It has infiltrated and subverted every religious principle by making the modus operendi of all organisations within a capitalist society to service profit. Varnashrama dhama is revolutionary. It can be nothing but. We cannot fit in with a society as corrupt as this and hope to change it gradually from within. We have suffered from that principle to the point where now all our temples are able to do is try and break clear at the bank while supporting the increasingly flamboyant activities of their corrupt leaders. Our philosophy is stronger and deeper than capitalism. My interest in socialism is borne of the fact that socialists understand exactly what is wrong with capitalism. They understand how it permeates and destroys all that is good in human nature. It pitches brother against sister, black against white. Dividium et imperium. Try and understand that the ruling powers have a vested interest in hoodwinking the mass of people that the current situation cannot and will not change. This is why socialists are presented as such bogeymen. They are not. I suggest that you are not fully aware of what capitalism and socialism actually are, which is fine. Most people are not, even those with high class educations and powerful positions. Socialism is very much like Vaishnavism in that regard. Its a well kept secret that is busting to be released from the predjudice that confines it. Capitalism and socialism cannot be mixed. There is no third way. Both are mutually exclusive. State led demand management policies pursued to save capitalism from its endless cycles of boom and bust do not equate to socialism. Socialism is the emancipation of human kind from the endless pursuit of material gain. It is for this reason I think vaishnavas should show a more informed interest in its actual tenets. Wars are good for business. They enable arms manufacturers to continually ply their trade and they also in the current context allow rich nations to rob from poor nations under the guise of "regime change". In a socialist society the fundamental principle would be to protect human life and enable human culture to flourish and grow. Capitalism undermines this principle by putting a price on human life and labour. I believe it is possible for human beings to live without war. We have to start by operating under an economic system that doesn't depend on war and the permanent arms economy. I don't need wars, do you? But then we don't have empires to protect. But who needs empires? Asuras! We have to think out of the box now and that is all I am trying to do because I have not found suitable answers to my own questions other than that I believe a better world is possible because Prabhupada says. Now I believe a better world is possible because I have read some Marxist literature also and I can see that economically peace is feasible also.
  22. Capitalism has not existed since ancient times. That is feudalism. Capitalism is an anachronism that began to develop on the back of the slave trade. The profits from the slave trade enabled the mercantile class to break free from the feudal lords and kings. If you can begin to understand that Capitalism is an economic system with no precedent in recorded human history that began to fully flourish with the onset of the industrial revolution in the 18th century, you will begin to understand what is so wrong and ultimatley reversible about it. Businessmen are Vaishyas. They are not driven by compassion and wisdom but the quickest and most effective way to make a profit for themselves. As I have argued previously in this discussion, the reason God's earth is in such a terrible condition is precisely because the vaishyas are not capable of providing peace due to their varna. What kind of braindead society actually wishes its Vaishyas to act in the capacity of the Brahminical class? This one. I am arguing not for socialism in and of itself but for socialism as the means to overthrow capitalism. I am arguing for this because I have seen how profiteering has rotted at the heart of ISKCON due to vaishyas usurping positions of power. And why shouldn't they? It is their nature and their age. The time is ripe for the vaishya. And then it is time of the sudra and the lotus of human culture closes in the dark night of ignorance. My argument is why let the vaishyas rule. Isn't there supposed to be a golden age upon us? Are we not fighting for a better world than one dictated by the highest profit at the lowest outlay? Capitalism is in the process of hitting rock bottom. It can't sink any lower any faster. There is no sense to the vaishya principle of profit without the guiding force of the other varnas being represented. It leads to destruction. At least try and follow my argument to that degree and then maybe I can take the discussion further after that. Capitalism is Vaishyaism. There is nothing glorious or holy about it. It is wanton and lustful materialism gone mental. Why on earth am I having so much difficultly convincing aspirant vaishnavas that there is something wrong with businessmen running the world? Try and realise that businessmen are running ISKCON too. Thats why it was so horrible living in an ISKCON temple. Thats why the leaders of ISKCON at the time didn't understand what was wrong with racketeering and abuse. Eki Ha for profit! The goal of profit permeates the whole of society. A vaishnava should be seeking ways to bring that to a halt, not advocate it as inevitable and holy.
  23. I believe that from the soil of a socialist society varnashrama dhama would manifest naturally, organically. Capitalism is completely alien to spiritual values and brings degradation in all directions. Socialist values lend themselves to spiritual development and should be fought for in order to create the right environment for varnashrama dhama to develop. No one has authorised this thinking. Prabhupada never instructed that we should fight for socialism. I understand that. I do believe that capitalist thinking has permeated ISKCON, however, and that the antidote to that is a more left wing approach to social problems. Prabhupada was not here to instruct when ISKCON became an organisation synonymous with control and bullying. Socialism is about the kind of world we could create if we got rid of capitalism. It is not a system set in stone and would flex according to the popular will by its nature. I believe if Capitalism was eroded the natural will would flow.
  24. I don't accept such advancement as being the result of my own endeavours. This is the key. I am grateful and respectful to so many people for helping me to understand the world in which I live and the one in which I am beginning to believe it is possible to live. i do not expect others to bow down and worship my greatness. that is not my mood at all. I am not great. I am grateful. This is the difference. When we are grateful for the knowledge we receive we become enthusiastic to pass it on to others. I am not telling you that I am great. I am not. I have troubled myself over simple issues all my life and will continue to do so until I draw my dying breath. I can only hope that I continue to be a grateful recipient of knowledge. I consume knowledge, but knowledge is God. Therefore I consume God. I am aware of this. This is not a pure and respectful mentality. i hope that at some point I will deveop a respectful attitude, then my true love of God will be realised. This does not detract from the issue that the association of socialists, not all but some, has served to develop my consciousness to the point where I value the importance of the association of humble personalities; personalities who recognise that there are more important goals in life than the satiation of ones own senses. My concern is how to alleviate myself of the troublesome cycle of samsara. This is not in any way the desire of a true and great devotee. I stubb my toe I feel pain, not to mention the pain of death which would consume me like raging fire and subject me to the indignity of rebirth. Please do not mistake me for someone who is so foolish as to think that my trials within this world are over. They are not. I am as entangled as the next soul who's fears and desires lie within the taunts of this mystifiying world. I only speak with a desire to encourage others of a similar faith and level of realisation to look at the world they live in with a greater scrutinity than they may perceive is necessary to follow this path, the path Prabhupada has laid bare before us. I have had the association for 5 years of my life of those who profess to follow Prabhupada, yet these people had nothing of his compassion or knowledge. i have sold Prabhupada's books and have been encouraged to do so as a salesperson, not as an advocate as a better way of life. What I have learnt in the association of socialists is that the key to propogating a better way of life is having the analytical skills to understand how such a life is possible. May I ask you? Do you understand why we wage wars on the middle east? Why do people living in 1st world countries starve to death? Why women are forced by the powers of economic immiseration to suffer the indignity of prostitution? Why when we are so advanced with techonological prowess do we still strive for the highest profit at the lowest outlay? Why devotees throughout the world are subject to torture, poverty, starvation and ruination? I suggest to you it is because capitalism as an economic system is totally and utterly opposed to Vaishnavism. It is demonism of the kind that is outlined within the tenth chapter of the Bhagavad Gita. On the other hand socialism, in my experience of socialising with socialists and digesting socialist ideas whilst maintaining a furious commitment to Prabhupada's mission of establishing the cult of Vaishnavism throughout the globe, has brought me to the conclusion that there is no contradiction between Vaishnava culture and the ideals of the socialist movement. If you do not believe that I would suggest it is because you have never had the opportunity as I have been so fortunate to have of associating with socialists. My joy comes from having the opportunity to show to them that God values their commitment to the betterment of human society and in so doing to awaken some of the most compassionate souls alive today of the value of learning to love Krishna. I am the servant of the servant of the servant. Dasi anu dasi anu dasi. i would not wish it to be any other way. I hope this goes some measure to answering your query. If you still feel that I am proud and desirous to impact upon others the grandiosity of my knowledge let it be known fully that the knowledge I am propogating is not of my own creation. It is a gift that I am obviously incapable of passing on to any kind of meaningful effect. Although it pains my heart that this is so I hope that others will follow who are more effective in their preaching and can inspire you to see that there is value in socialist beliefs.
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