Danielle Field

Kbdas, I do understand your concerns regarding the post revolutionary situation and my response is that revolutions do not require to be bloody. It is capitalism that is bloody laying waste to the human race with little concern for the future of the planet. That may be a hard pill to swallow but it is true. The ruling class is in the minority and the workers are the majority. It is true that the ruling class will lay waste to all who dare to rebel without discrection but that is not to say that the rebels need be so blood thirsty. I know you are going to want to spring up a million and one examples of blood letting for the sake of revolution but I would like to refer you to the experience of revolution in the Paris Commune in the late 1800's and also the current situation in Venezuala. My concern for the Post revolutionary situation has been expressed previously on this discussion but I will summarise briefly. We currently have a two class situation, bourgois and proletariat. this is not in line with Vedic thoughts on class society, it is an aberration which was brought about by the greed of the bourgeois revolutionaries who sought to rob the power of the corrupt kingly class. My argument is that these theives demons and usurpers are holding the development of the sankirtan movement back. By perverting the direction of society towards the unworthy goals of profit at any cost we are robbing human beings of the opportunity to take advantage of Lord Caitanya's mercy. From what I have learnt of actual Marxism and not the perverted reflection of it that we see through the eyes of bourgeois propagandists, then we will see that there is a way in which we can develop the sankirtan movment as Prabhupada intended and not become apologists for and slaves to the capitalist system. I understand your concerns about who might be killed after the revolution but I have not met a single socialist who relishes or concerns themselves with such ideas. We are not blood thirsty, we wish to act collectively to stop the activities of the blood thirsty. We wish to stop those who desire money at any cost and are willing to slaughter the innocent to achieve their goals. The reason I am addressing you with these issues is because my experience living in a Hari Krishna temple proved to me that as a movement we are too politically naive to develop the sankirtan movment and have simply become another money making organisation, struggling to survive in a corrupt society. I really wish I had access to the internet more regularly and then I could get back to you on this. I can see that some reference to Prabhupada's concerns on the matter have been listed and I would like direction to more such references so thanks. What I can tell from the references I've read, however, is that there is not much understanding of Marxism from Prabhupada's disciples at the time and for that reason I suspect Prabhupada has not been correctly informed as to what Marxist ideology is. That answers one of my questions at least and has made me feel more confident that I can maintain full conviction in Prabhupada's vani and not have to neglect the work I am involved in raising consciousness of God in my commrades and associates. Marxists don't want everybody to be the same and the maxim each according to his need to each according to their ability is perfectly applicable to vaishnava society. As for you BDM, you know there is no love lost between us, so you won't mind if I don't honour your comments with a respons, less to read them as they are usually filthy and contaminating. Although I have little respect for you I can certainly never envisage desiring or justifying yours or anyone else's death for the sake of revolution. Socialism is a fantastic tool for introducing people to the concept of consciousness expansion and its also a practical means to help people gain a sense of the world in which they live in. I wish I had had an opportunity to present those ideas to Prabhupada to see what he would have thought, but that I cannot do. I am not remotely convinced anyone as yet have convincingly responded to this with Prabhupada's mood and so I guess I'll never know.

Sorry, couldn't get you on that link. I don't have the internet anymore either so I'll probably not be able to get back to you for a while. Hope you're ok. The world's on the verge of a massive shake up, gotta keep our consciousness up. I'll be out there fighting somewhere. Hope you're doing the same. Take care, there's capitalists out there!!!

"So why haven't the socialists embraced theistic communism? Because they are demons plain and simple. They reject the idea of God. Why are you and I aspiring theistic communists and they choose to be atheistic communists." You say that they are demons but my experience of their association tells me that they are not. You say that they are atheistic but only a percentage are and that percentage is dwindling. There was an expedient requirement for communists at the time of the Russian revolution to stand in opposition to the state backed religious institutions. This is because the leaders of religious institutions have historically sanctioned demoniac acts on behalf of the demoniac state and resisted the cry of the people for a better way of life, one that capitalism has afforded us through the social organisation of labour. The time has come to dispense with the old order and bring in a new one that facilitates the whole world and not just the privileged elite. We need to gain control of the means of production from the demoniac class of men, the ones who say "so much do I have today, and so much more will I have tomorrow" and pass the mantle to those crying "Bread, Peace and Freedom". We have come to a point in capitalism's history, now whereby the state no longer depends upon the backing of religious institutions to control the people through superstition. As such the church wields nowhere near so much power upon the ideological influence of the masses. This, I believe, is a good thing, because what is worse than atheism is the perversion of religious belief as it achieves what it has achieved within communistic persons previously, predjudice against the whole religious project and, ultimately, God. I am engaged in dialogue with socialists on this issue because they are at a point in their development where they can begin to accommodate a conception of the divine within the context of resisting the capitalist system. They are keen now to reclaim the religion of the oppressed from the religion of the oppressors. The religion of the oppressors states "do not try to change the world, what happens within it is God's will and therefore cannot be challenged. Resistance is futile." This is not our business as religious revolutionaries and such a position is an illusion created by those in power so that they can protect their privilege while the masses cannot meet the needs of survival and their opportunities to devote their lives to God are diminished by the shear struggle for survival. The prejudices you have towards socialists read like a well rehearsed script. They have been learnt from a previous era. Indeed they are informed by the very fact that devotees in the initial years of building the Iskcon movement were attacked at times and ridiculed by socialists for their worshipping an "imaginary deity" instead of focusing on hard hitting political views. What I am trying to tell you is that they are changing. Circumstance is changing them. They are learning that religion doesn't prevent one from developing a sincere desire to challenge the oppression of the demoniac class of men and so they are more respectful and therefore open to overcome their own predjudices. This is the reason I am attempting to open a dialogue about socialism with you. These prejudices are anachronistic and have hardened due to sectarianism alone and not in some necessary way in order to protect our movement. The mass of people need to organise and mobilise collectively to overthrow the demons who subvert all the world's resources into their pockets, force us to be dependent on oil so that the money passes into their grubby murderous hands and do not get spent on creating the kind of society that has a commitment to living practices conducive to Krishna's worship. Atheists lived in ancient India alongside theists with no quarrel. Indeed Jagganatha's temple was once in the care of Buddhist's and so far as we can tell He enjoyed and accepted their worship. I see the commitment of socialist's to a better world, one without war, greed, poverty, famine and pestilence as an act of worship on their behalf at the level of realisation that they experience. I think you are wrong to believe they are demonic and make a grave mistake in failing to understand the potential contained within the socilaist movement. I understand the economic principles underlying socialism and they would work in accordance with Vedic principles. I would encourage you to look at what Marx actually wrote about religion and attempt in your own space to understand the difference between the rhetoric of capitalist's regarding socialism and the reality. I agree with you entirely that devotion to theistic communism begins within the hearts and minds of individuals but right now the whole world is under attack from the constant onslaught of policies of economic vicissitude which demand an organised and mass resistance. Indeed they are fostering a mass resistance which we can choose to be a part of or get swept aside by. Religious people of all banners must be aware that socialists are not some atheistic cult to be shunned and dismissed. We can engage with them and if we want to know how to organise and develop our movement from the pathetic, fragmented scrap heap that it has become, we should. They are growing fast because they are arming people with the arguments they need to overcome the alienation that capitalism imposes upon them. This can and should be a springboard to developing spiritual consciousness, but it only will be if religious people get on board. To begin to understand that people are capable of change and that society itself can be changed stands in direct contradiction to what the capitalist class want us to believe. The last thing they want is for us to understand that all the faultlines within society are caused by neo-liberal policies and not the wretched hearts of the sinful. We want to see people punished rather than invest time in developing their skills within the world to become more productive people. Most of the people in prisons in Britain have the reading age of 11 and yet no-one attempts to teach them to read there once inside. Most of the people in prison were brought up in care homes, abused by paedophiles and then locked up with them. This is the difference between having a left and a right wing perspective. To have a left wing perspective is to believe that human beings placed in the right social and economic environment are capable of flourishing. This perspective is conducive to religious revolution. The right wing says "to hell with them and to hell with you all". If you've got money you'll get by but screw you if you haven't. I believe the reason that Iskcon has become such a pathetic shadow of its former self is because it has become beguiled by right wing arguments that people are ultimatley selfish and not to be trusted. Indeed that people in general should be feared and not understood, better to defend than to let down your guard. I speak to devotees selling books in the street and they look so uncomfortable and alienated because they are in a state of fear about their position and only feel relief in the beds wrapped up in the temple at night. If we could only begin to understand that the general mass of people could change rapidly if they had to right social facilities to do so then we would not be so confused and fearful about our own position. We should be concerned about social and economic issues effecting people's lives because this is exactly what the institution of Varnashrama Dhama is all about.

Ok, got another little window here. I have already discussed the fact that leaders like Stalin, Castro and Mao were perverting the principles of socialism in order to gain power. By usurping the collective will of the populace and directing it towards creating 'socialism in one country' these leaders have misunderstood the basic principle that capitalism is a global system and can only be overthrown globally. As such I do not feel any need to challenge the proposition that socialism of necessity leads to dictatorship. It is socialism within one country that leads to dictatorship of necessity because it is trying to create a false position within the wider capitalist system and simply makes the whole country act as nothing but another corporate structure that relates to the wider world through capitalist relations. We are spiritual communists. This is what I am trying to reinvigorate the movement with, a sense of what actual communism is. At the moment Iskcon isn't fighting for spiritual communism. It is defending capitalistic relations within the temples and it is propogating practices which alienate devotees from their labour which is exactly what the ruling class does to the proletariat. In one of Theist's responses which i didnt' have time to get back to you wrote that socialists didn't recognise that labour was sacred, that they had some notion of ridding the world of labour so that we could all enjoy materially without interuption. For socialists work is integral to the spiritual development of human beings. Their labour determines who they are. If they are alienated from their labour in terms of producing items such as clothing, houses, or indeed profits that they will never derive any organic use from this alienates the workers from their labour. This in its turn alienates them from a conception of God. Devotional labour is what unites us with God and it is for this reason that I believe Capitalism is evil manifest. Not only does it rob people of the opportunity to labour by creating unemployment as a means of controlling the labouring classes with the threat of the importation at any moment of a surplus army of labour, it simultaneously drains labour of any devotional sensibility so that working itself becomes nothing but a means of surviving by gaining money. If we could begin to understand from a purely economic position exactly what was so wretched about the capitalist mode of production then our arguments about the importance of loving God would take on more meaning when we are preaching to the public. People would see the practical objective in our mission. They would understand that we have a purpose and a plan. Currently most devotees are running on blind faith hoping that Krishna will do something to change the world so that people will listen. My experience is that it is not that people will not listen. They are ready to hear but along the way since Prabhupada's departure the movement has become corrupted by capitalistic thinking, blame people don't help them. Bomb people don't feed or educate them. Racism, sexism, homophobia, all these means by which the ruling class divide and control us have become prolific within Iskcon thinking and practice. My objective is not to get devotees to join the socialist movement as a means to bringing about God consciousness although I have found the association of socialists conducive to developing spiritual consciousness. Rather I want devotees not to misunderstand the compassion manifest in the hearts of socialists and to try and develop a deeper understanding of what it is they are trying to achieve because we should be strategising how to overthrow capitalism also in order to manifest Varnashrama Dhama. My mission also is to radicalise ISKCON because it has simply become yet another religious business functioning within this wretched economic order. We need to overthrow Capitalism from within ISKCON itself and have faith that there are practical measures we can implement to spiritually revolutionise the world. I want to challenge the tendency within devotees to fear their own fall down and act as timid individual protectionist spirits. Go forth and blooming well multiply the movement! Recognise that there is a problem and be willing to address it. Learn from organisations that are growing and try to understand what it is we're doing wrong. Don't fall for the traps that the ruling order have deliberately set to separate us from the growing number of people out there who are desperate to change the world and make it a nicer place. Talk to them. Do not assume just because they are socialists they are impenetrable demons. Maybe its ISKCON that is impenetrable and not socialism. Prabhupada came to the west with a thirst to speak to so many different organisations and to empower these organisations with spiritual arguments so that they became purified from within. In order to assist him do that he opened and maintained centres committed to spiritual principles so that they could be armed with the knowledge of how to go out and convince others how to change the world. Now what we have is people making a show of preaching by speaking to some groups and yet shunning others believing they are too wicked for redemption, then running back to the "preaching centres" to hide from the world and pray that Krishna makes it better for them so that preaching gets easier. We have become frightened and devotees have no business being frightened, not even for their own spiritual redemption! Your own spiritual redemption is assured if you put others before yourself and go out and preach!!! Take care, D.

The point I am trying to make is that we have not done a very good job of establishing theistic communism because, by and large, Iskcon has fallen pray to capitalistic thinking. We tend as a group to believe that people who are in a fallen condition deserve to be there because of their karma and do not apply our spiritual knowledge and compassion towards creating a world in which all people could develop spiritual consciousness. Prabhupada had this vision which is why he came to the west when all his good friends told him that it was a mistake, we were all demons. My point is that Prabhupada found an eager audience in hippies who were engaged in what the more prurient amongst us would categorise as demoniac practices. But were they demons? No, because when they were introduced to a higher way of living they embraced it willingly. Socialists for the greater part exhibit a higher level of compassion and are more materially aware of the world political situation because they are part of that world and are not hiding from it within the confines of religious communes. I understand why they are dubious of religious sects as most have become a by-word for brainwashing and the diminishing of spiritual consciousness. Because most devotees are now more keen to protect their own personal advancement within a world they increasingly fear because they are separated from and therefore do not understand. Their fear, I believe, is caused for a greater part by the lies that capitalism peddles in order to control us. We cannot trust each other, we are all ruthlessly selfish and would prefer to earn money for our own keep than to contribute to a collective pot, compassion is dead long live individualistic consumerism. I believe that the world has advanced due to its growing awareness that the dominant economic system is robbing them of what it means to be human. In socialists I see a greater sense of what it is to be human because they are willing to challenge the lies that the capitalist system puts forward by proving people are willing to fight for the rights of others and show solidarity with those suffering at the hands of ruthless oppression in other countries around the world. My experience within Iskcon was that most of the devotees were too afraid even to show solidarity with each other for the sake of developing Iskcon let alone have compassion for those that are being bombed or starved into submission by the ruthless bullying of the ruling class. If I thought we were doing anything like spreading theistic communism I would be happy to get on board but we're not. As a group we have become inward looking, selfish and concerned only for our own spiritual development. I think socialists have a lot to teach us in terms of organising to create a world in which compassion and not dollars are the currency that we exchange. Socialists are closer to creating that world than we are right now because they are actually applying their intelligence to the task and committing themselves to it. got to go again. sorry.

In stating that socialism is not the answer I mean that it doesn't claim to be an answer. It is a process that will enable the creative energies within humankind to be released so that the world can be re organised around productive, creative principles. No self respecting socialist, in the light of the hideous stalinist regime, would claim to know exactly what a socialist society could or should look like. Rather it is with an eye to faith in human beings to actually articulate a world, given the right social and economic structures to do so, are capable of living peacefully. We need a world in which ignorance can be combatted through providing education even of a material nature to all people and ensure that it is not just a privilege of the rich. Prabhupada said that we will not become spiritually aware until we are material aware. When so many in the world cannot read or write how can we expect ignorance to be dispelled and the Bhagavatam to be read by all? We need communities that can provide their collective needs communally and not one in which we have to fight as individuals for access to health care and security. These are collective needs and should be met collectively. To encourage a system of "meritocracy" is to ensure that there must be loosers within the system so that winning takes on more meaning. The winners are always going to be those who started the race with more resources. Devotees need to be thinking practically about how to bring about a spiritual revolution and stop being so insular in their spiritual development. Insularity brings fearfulness. How can you hope to become spiritually aware when you are fearful of protecting your individual development of consciousness in a world racked with ignorance and sin? God lives within human culture and it is our duty to do what is necessary to make human culture offerable to God and then invite Him to inhabit it. It is not just our own hearts that need to be purified. If you simply attempt to develop your own consciousness and damn the rest of the world to live in ignorance and war you will not develop devotion to Krishna, you will simply exacerbate your tendency to devote your activities to your self. Socialism offers a revolutionary means via which to organise economic principles around collective needs which will enable us to have the time to develop our individual relationship with God. Capitalism robs us of this collective organisation which is inherent within Prabhupada's teachings on Varnashrama Dhama. Capitalism forces us to strive for an individualistic existence to meet our collective needs and thereby prevents us from devoting our individual energies towards advancing our personal relationship with Him.

Socialism is not the path to spiritual liberation but in a world where devotee association has become a place of prolific bullying, woman hating, racism and homophobia I find the association of those who are less interested in blaming disempowered and minority groups for all the things that are wrong in the world inspiring and progressive. They are much more reflexive in their outlook and are keen to understand the truth at the heart of matters rather than twisting the truth to fit their limited vision of the world. I have experienced joining an Iskcon community and this hardened my heart making the compassion which had drawn me to the light of Krishna consciousness become an unattractive sentimentality that was to be beaten out of me as a spiritual imperative. Socialists actually encourage the softening of your heart so that you can fight the good fight with humility and not rage. I am not in this advocating that all socialists are humble and submissive. Many are the exact opposite. I am lucky. I am amongst socialists who have taken their philosophy seriously and have not ended at the point where they are satisfied to be part of a collective, resting on the laurels of their previous studies, believing they know it all. To be a socialist is to open up a consistant path of inquiry, and that path only concludes when the contradictions between capital and labour have been resolved. I believe from my experience that that path of enquiry will lead them, in time, to question the absolute. The softening of the heart that involves fighting for socialism will enable them to follow that path once they reach the crossroads. I was at a socialist meeting last night and there were many Muslims in attendance approx 300:100 white people. There were black people there also and a minority of Jewish people who were there to establish that Zionism is the antithesis of all that is good and holy and that no self respecting Jew would to such a deadly philosophy, to offer solidarity to Muslim's around the world being persecuted as they had been during the holocaust. Atheists and theists alike were agreed on all things that the world can only be rid of the scourge of evil when the system of Capitalist production has been overthrown. Capitalism is a system based on gambling and it capitalises upon the worst and weakest characteristics in human nature. Socialism is a means of socially organising the world so that the purification of human culture becomes the raison d'etre of economic organisation. This is what Prabhupada advocates in the introduction to the Srimad Bhagavatam. He states that the Bhagavatam is the light of the world, and it is. See how it is lighting the world bringing together people of all faiths and cultures, atheists and theists alike. See how the Bhagavatam is dramatically overturning the structures of evil that have held human consciousness captive for so many ages. See how it is effecting those who have not even touched its beautiful pages to rise up in solidarity against the forces of evil and inspiring the human race to build the world anew. Socialism is not the answer, it is a symptom of this cultural uprising. Socialists are not pure devotees, they are compassionate human beings, whose devotion to the development of a culture in which human consciousness can expand and errupt should not be overlooked or misunderstood. I hope someone will read this and understand the importance of this message. I am not capable of conveying its importance as a solitary actor. Haribol.

"There is a serious issue with a lack of tolerance in many of those who follow Islam and - it's not limited to just extremists either! Heck how many intolerant hare krishna's troll around - but - do simple a test - go to a muslim chat room and tell them you're into Krishna and you wish to have inter-faith dialogue - see what they say to you?" coutesy of the ever dependable, fool extraordinaire, BDM. Silly, silly boy. You really must come to terms with the fact that cyberspace isn't real space and is ipso facto dotted with morons like you who subvert every decent discussion. That includes Muslim chat rooms too. I speak with actual Muslim's regularly on issues of faith and they are perfectly amenable to accpting the virtue in my beliefs and wish me well. What we agree on is that the wicked in the world are not those sincere souls following their faith, whatever brand it may be, with devotion. Rather, the wicked are those that do not recognise the value of human life and see fit to randomly abuse their access to the most powerful artillery in the world to bomb to bits innocent citizens just to rob the world of any chance of peace in their bid for power. Such an argument doesn't fit with your world view so you castigate all Muslim's as being incapable of reason. Try speaking to actual Muslim's and try toning your zealotry down a little and you'll find that they are, for the greater part, as sweet and humble as most people who take their faith seriously are. I know its difficult for you being a biggot and an Islamaphobe but try, push yourself to be humble enough to admit you might be wrong. If they are, as a people, so incapable of reason, why did Prabhupada weep when the Bhagavad Gita was translated into Arabic. He had faith, where's yours, you big power lover? Does George Bush make you go weak at the knees with the masterful way in which he dispenses with those you see fit to dismiss as unfit for human life? Done so much for world peace and, curiously, the global trade in arms which the American economy depends on.

Sorry if I misunderstood you Sephiroth. I'm a bit over anxious to challenge the kind of 'its your karma' argument that left me subject to bullying in iskcon for so long. I'm also a bit worried that Guest isn't looking at this discussion anymore because the 'just accept that you were a bad person and deserve it' camp have been a bit over anxious to get their point across. wish you all the best.

Was it Arjuna's karma to be bullied by the Kaurava's? He certainly seemed to think so in the opening chapters of the Bhagavad Gita. He wanted to give up his duty and live in the forest and constructed all manner of excuses as to why that was preferable to challenging bullies. Krishna explained in exact detail exactly why such indecisiveness about one's duty was not acceptable. Human association is the means by which concsiousness can be expanded and purified. The bullies rule the world by force. Should we let them continue or should we shed light on the world and establish a culture that defies the necessity for bullying? If its our karma to accept bullying why don't we just lie back and accept the bullying from our senses? I've been strung that line about bullying being my karma so many times. It's not true. Every interaction you have with another human being is an opportunity to advance your own and also their consciousness. The problem with most Iskcon devotees is that they have become inward looking and have forgotten that Prabhupada's mission was meant to incorporate the whole world. We must set an example to others who are not aware of spiritual values, show to them that there is value in living a different way of life. We must break the spell that Maya has cast upon them. If somebody you encounted believes it is perfectly acceptable to bully you, you have a duty to correct them. You also have the power and the authority to do so because the answers are there in the Bhagavad Gita which you must live to represent. Everybody Prabhupada encountered he attempted in some way to advance their consciousness. How do you advance a bully's consciousness if you let them ride rough shod all over you? To accept bullying as your karma is an Iskcon myth and it leads to loss of faith and nescience. You must be brave and strong and humility is the key to developing such strength. If it was left to the dictat of your senses the fact of the matter is the path of least resistance would be the preferable one and it is this path that the advocates of bully tolerance are encouraging you to take; to avoid confrontation at all costs is Maya, sense gratification. You must be humble and realise there are more important things in life than the gratification of your senses. There are things greater than yourself that are worth fighting for. You must not challenge bullies to inflate your own ego but you are obliged to do it in order to correct their demoniac mentality. Out of compassion also you have a duty to challenge bullying as if you do not change a bully's ways they will simply move on from you to the next person and bully them and thereby degrade the consciousness of the whole world due to their demoniac mentality. Prabhupada would not tolerate bullying of himself or others, why are we advocating the tolerance of bullying in his name? Before Prabhupada left this world there was developing already within Iskcon a culture of bullying and he made every attempt where he could to challenge that in order to defend the movement. Anyone wanting to do their research can find out what happened within Iskcon once Prabhupada left in terms of the eventual consumption of Iskcon through a culture of bullying. Bullying is controllership, it stands in complete contradiction to surrender and spiritual values. It is the rot of the world and it must be fought. Please stop telling this poor soul they should tolerate bullying. Guest, as a devotee I insist that you must protect yourself from bullies and do not fall for these seductive arguments about accepting bullying as your lot. It may have come about for some karmic reason. I don't know and I really don't think the source of the bullying is the imporant issue here. The important thing is that you have the power and a duty to challenge it and thereby bring the cycle to a close, not just for yourself but for the people who are bullying you. If someone murders you in this life you will come back in the next life and have the opportunity to murder them. Would you want such an opportunity and would you take advantage of it? If you bullied someone in your last life and they are now getting the opportunity to bully you should you let them, or should you as a devotee help them to break the cycle so that neither of you have to be trapped any longer in this abusive merry-go-round that ties you to the material world? I ask because I know that really you know the answer, I think those who do not think their arguments through to their logical conclusion are confusing you about your duty.

Sweety! Don't let people bully you. Forgive them, sure, but don't let them bully you. You have to chastise them. Prabhupada ate bullies for breakfast. You have to put them straight, its your duty. The problem is devotees are humble but we mustn't confuse humility with pridelessness. We are proud to be Krishna's devotees, it is not ourselves we defend but Prabhupada and Krishna. We must never let those so deep in Maya that they believe they should control us be allowed to do so. The only thing they understand is beat or be beaten. When someone is as proud as a house you must pull them down. Do not relish it for its own sake and look for confrontation, but don't get confused about your duty. We are here to destroy the demoniac mentality. You are precious because you are precious to Krishna, defend yourself because you are His jewel and go out and make shining diamonds out of lumps of coal by chastising them so hard that they have no choice but to give up the darkness and shine. You're such a dear. Its not your karma to be bullied. I think its your karma to be put into a situation where you get subjected to it so often that eventually you have no choice but to say "I will suffer this no more!" then you will be gallant like a warrior prince and fight like a dasaratha, you're humble enough so now be fearless. Pick up your sword and fight!

I have experienced such a great advancement in my spiritual development in the association of socialists than I ever did in the association of "devotees". As such I am completely attached to their association because in spite of their desire for me to give up my sentimental attachment to religiosity it is their company that actually inspires me to chant and read Prabhupada's books. They are committed to overthrowing the spell that Maya has cast over the material world in the form of Capitalism. Capitalism demands the subversion of all truth in order to maintain this perverse form of economic organisation. Capitalism makes waste out of progress, starves people because of overproduction. It melts all that is real into thin air and subverts every religious priniciple, commodifying all religious organisations and making them nothing but corporate shells that serve the wretched. I want to bring about a social revolution that will unleash the potential of human kind to engage in its natural desire to serve God. I believe the Golden age is already upon us and that it is only capitalism which holds us back. Capitalism rid the world of all the hitherto superstitions and traditions. Without those fetters human kind could begin a new taking only what was necessary for survival and developing social relations according to the souls need for decent and nourishing association and the development of consciousness. But we have to get rid of the demons subverting all that is good in human culture. I believe Prabhupada's mission has worked but that there needs to be a revolution within Iskcon to get rid of those who are currently holding the wave of devotional culture back with their contaminated capitalist notions of controlling the individual rather than allowing their natural devotion a platform for expression. I have seen from experience that the socialist principles of the social organisation of labour are actually based around devotional principles of good association that Prabhupada enunciated in the nectar of instruction. Socialists associate like this organically without the threat of hell hanging over them. The world is ready. It is time for devotees to take their service seriously and make the world a new, to take advantage of the forces of revolution to sweep away the evil that is rotting away the heart of the world. Socialists are only skeptical of religious belief because they analyse from a material perspective that religions only serve to control people and therefore can be of no use to developing a better world. I see my duty to Prabhupada to infiltrate their ranks and show them a conception of God that goes deeper than this, to help them to understand that they can conceptualise their own worship beyond the strictures of capitalistic forms of religious subversion. I do not take offence at their atheism and am also aware that many these days are more open to spiritual beliefs. The other reason they often don't take God consciousness seriously is because they meet people with such horrific politics claiming that they are acting on Gods order and so they reject God out of hand believing politics is more important for the expression of compassion. It is our duty to seek out those people most attracted to the truth and to enable them to understand that God belongs to them and not to the Biggots and th zealots who claim to speak in his name.

ARf Arf Arf!! Barking like a dog again BDM. Can't make out a word you're saying, all I hear is uncontrolled emotions and thinly veiled conceit. You're a bore. You offer nothing of validity to the argument, you just stand behind the bullies and go "Yeah, I'm with them, and they've got the biggest weapons so that's cool by me!" How was Israel created BDM, go on, enlighten me, what's your version of events? Jeeze, you're so funny! Nrsinghadev thinks you're a hoot, every time he peeps down from that little insert. Its a good job Krishna's got a good sense of humour. And who said you get to call me Danny? I wasted far too much time being polite with you and it got me nowhere except deflated. Thats when I realised you needed chastising. You don't listen, all you want to do is tell. You ruin every discussion you get involved in and you don't even notice you are doing it. I appreciate that Kulapavana will not feel comfortable siding with me on this but I think its up to someone to reel your ugly neck in because every discussion you touch dissolves into muck and the only reason you don't notice is because that is where you are at. I'm only going away when I want to this time and not just because of your barking you mad dog!

Just a quickie! I was reading this today and couldn't resist: Quote, Dr Shlomo Shmelzman, a survivor of the Holocaust, to the press in Israel, announcing his courageous hunger strike at the height of the bombing of West Beirut Lebanon in the 1982 conflict. "In my childhood I have suffered fear, hunger and humiliation when I passed from the Warsaw Ghetto, through labour camps, to Buchenwald. Today, as a citizen of Israel, I cannot accept the systematic destruction of cities, towns and refugee camps. I cannot accept the technocratic cruelty of the bombing, destroying and killing of human beings. I hear too many familiar sounds today, sounds which are being amplified by the war. I hear "dirty Arabs" and I remember "dirty Jews". I hear about "closed areas" and I remember ghettos and camps. I hear "two-legged beasts" and I remember "Untermenschen" (subhumans). I hear about tightening the siege, clearing the area, pounding the city into submission, and I remember suffereing, destruction, death, blood and murder . . . Too many things in Israel remind me of too many things from my childhood" (Noam Chomsky "The fateful Triangle"). BDM and Samia your positions are too offensive to be considered Vaishnava. They applaud killing, justified in the name of God. Yes there is a time and a place for such killing but the deaths should fall on the heads of the warrior class and not innocent civilians. Shame on you! Shame, shame, shame. You are the same group so fooled by your pride and predjudice that spurred on the Nazi Holocaust, believing all that the ruling class said of the worthlessness of innocent Jewish lives and their plot to take over the world (sound familiar to the garbage you've been swallowing about all Islamic resistance revolving around global domination?). I cannot show any serious interest in this website any longer. However, this isn't really a forum for serious discussion is it? I mean everytime someone starts a serious discussion it quickly descends into a cacophony of tit for tat nonesense and any serious debating mind would loose any credibility just honouring such responses. Kulpavana you have my deepest sympathies. I feel exactly the same. YOu are interested in a discussion obviously, but when you want to discuss issues as serious as this do you turn to the baying mob or do you speak with rationed individuals who respect their service to the truth and do not think that the truth is their to service them and their petty point scoring? Look for those groups who recognise the validity of your position. You will lurch when I tell you this but mostly they are socialists. Most other groups are duped by the spell that Maya has cast through the instigation of the capitalist system. Guest, great to hear your thoughts on this matter. Those of you who rationalise the truth try your best to remove these deviants from the discussion. They degrade it with their ignorance! It is a Vaishnavas duty to rid the world of the pestilence of these offences and there are much more effective ways of doing it that wasting time exchanging verbiage with offenders. Speak to people who have ears that will listen, hearts that will hear. Don't throw flowers at hearts of stone. However, there is some sport to be had in disturbing fools. Samia, BDM you are fools! Prabhupada would have identified you as such. You have been so blinded to the truth by a tiny speck of knowledge that you have no interest to develop in the context of the bigger picture in world current affairs. "This is what I know so it must be right! Kaw Kaw! Kaw Kaw!" Start taking your service a bit more seriously and yourselves a little less seriously and then your attitudes will improve. You are rascals! Prabhupada warned that such blood thirsty people would dress as Vaishnavas yet fail to change the rot that festers in their hearts!

I'm sorry Theist. I didn't mean to disrespect you. I know you've responded a couple of times. I feel like I have to go over everything I've said already to respond to you BDM. Yes I do chant everyday. I used to chant so much that I chanted in my sleep. I have damaged my voice from being in Iskcon because I had to chant even when my vocal chords were damaged. Karma or abuse or should I not distinguish? I chant in my head when I can. The only books I read are Prabhupada's. I understand where Marxists are coming from without reading their books which often confuses and disturbs them. I have read Rosa Luxembourgs the Mass Strike and some of Marx's works on religion. I listen to people and this is how I learn. I'm really finding talking on this website much more difficult than I anticipated. Its not the best method of communication. I just want to see members of Iskcon and Vaishnavas generally inspired to change the world the way that socialists are. They have changed so much and you will never know. This really will be my last post until I get access to the Internet outside work but I just wanted to apologise for any offence. I don't think I'm ready for this yet, but I will be in time.

I'm sorry, I'm having a bad day. No reason to take it out on you. I think I'm going to have to wait until I've got proper access to the internet to get involved in discussing this more deeply though. My economic situation is too precarious to risk getting caught like this. Thanks for your time. I will think about what you've said. Hari bol! (I know thats the solution really)

I can't do this on the internet and this is just Maya. its not advancing either your position or mine. Your interpretation of my words is coming from an incomplete understanding of my position and a parody of what socialism is and is capable of. I give up. You have won, without convincing me of a single thing. I'm sorry that no one else wanted to really engage with this discussion because I feel it would benefit from a less polarised argument where different strands of the discussion could be addrressed but we're really just not getting beyond misunderstandings and prejudice. It would help if you were trying to understand and not to simply undermine my position. I may be wrong, but I'm only going to find that out from someone who is willing to see exactly what I am trying to say. Someone who is willing to follow what logic there is in my argument and not someone who is looking for potholes and where they don't exist, forging them. For all those people who were supportive of my argument and maybe know little of socialism please look into it or at least be willing to understand where socialists are coming from. Take care. Haribol.

Is there an incy, wincy chance that I might not be contradicting myself and that, as has previously occurred, you might have thought I meant something I didn't? Just a thought . . . I hope its not the reference to Muslim fundamentalists being morons. I always thought that. They are a very tiny minority of the Muslim population. Most current Muslim resistance is against imperialism and the attacks imperialism is making on the rights of all Muslims wherever they are in the world. I show solidarity to Muslims who wish to overthrow capitalism. If you think that most Muslims are fundamentalists and don't understand the damage that that conception of Islam has on peace loving Muslims then you need to deepen your analysis so that it doesn't exacerbate Islamaphobia. One of my friends recently got accused of being an Islamic fundamentalist and he's not, he's a Musllim socialist. Today it doesn't matter though. Even if you're a Brazilian travelling on the tube in London and your skin looks dark enough for you to be considered a Muslim you will get treated as if you are a terrorist. Jean Charles de Menezes was a Brazillian Christian visiting London and wash shot dead on the tube by the police for 'looking suspicious'. That kind of scaremongering about Muslim's leads to such misconceptions and in such fearful times mud sticks. I understand why Muslim's get swayed by the arguments of fundamentalists when they see little in the way of solidarity coming from the rest of the world. That is what we have to change to disempower the fundamentalists. Fight for a world of unity not one that perpetuates divisions in order to rule. I suspect that you spend less time in the company of Muslims than I do and it is for that reason you do not understand the subtleties of my argument. I encounter a lot of people like yourself who are more willing to believe what is written about Muslims in the media than to actually associate with them and find out what they are really like on their own terms. The problem with Muslim fundamentalists is the same problem as with Hindu fundamentalists. They think they have a direct line to God and don't have to refer to the will of the greater populace in their choice of methods of controlling society. Tony Blair is only answerable to God now by his own admission. He is a fundamentalist, a capitalist fundamentalist, just like George Bush. I fear them more because they have greater access to arms and a larger mandate to use them. They cause Islamic fundamentalism by targetting and scapegoating muslims in their bid to conceal the war they are waging on the international working class. I hold them and their administrations directly accountable for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. My argument is nothing if not consistent. If you've failed to recognise the constancy of my argument be open to the possibility that it is because you have not fully absorbed or understood my position. It shows a succint lack of humility for you to begin this with the assertion that I am contradicting myself. I have not accused you of any such thing. I have suspected it but have been open to the fact that there may be some means of correcting that position should I be in the wrong. Discussion and enquiry require humility. To assume someone is wrong just because you don't understand them is indicative of pride and makes disussion fraught.

Most of the socialists I associate with have begun to come to the conclusion that cruelty to animals is an extension of the prinicple of racism. Whilst they are cautious not to equate the violence meted out to humans as being comparable to that of animals they are recognising that as human beings we have a responsiblility not to abuse animals and to act responsibly to maintain their welfare. Lots of socialists are vegetarian for compassionate reasons. In a socialist society there would still be meat eating for sure, (this is kali yuga after all) but there would be an end to the commodification and abuse of animals. They would be allowed to live a life that wouldn't involve an impedement to their welfare. This is actually an important aspect of socialism and has been brought about by engaging in a dialogue with animal rights extremists who fail to understand the root cause of animal abuse within society - capitalism. Vedic culture also tolerates its share of meat eaters. However, they are allowed to continue their practices within prescribed parameters. The Sabaras in Jagannath Lila were pig herders and there's not much point in herding pigs unless you are going to eat them! I believe that if we got rid of capitalism the desire to eat meat within the general populace would diminsh significantly, if not simply for reasons of choice and health but as a response to an increase in the ability to express compassion. Food itself under capitalism has become nothing but filtth. Even fruits and vegetables have little in the way of taste due to the unnecessary oil pillaging that the ruling class is so fond of. BDM, I am appreciative to hear what Prabhupada has said of socialism because I only read about it in dribs and drabs and he's usually referring to Stalinism which I reject as state capitalist. I speculate that if Prabhupada met with socialists today he may see a way to get through to them as their position has become more conducive to spiritual development and less inimical to the concept of God. In reference to your comment regarding world leaders being in need of education my fear is that they are all so corrupt in capitulating with the dominant order and they are so embroiled in heinous acts that they are comparable to demons in their ability to switch off to the needs of the general populace. I see people who should and could be great leaders and most of them are socialists who are trapped within the working class and have no means of rising to positions of power. Did Rama educate Ravana with a book or an arrow? Socialists generally reject the notion of power believing that power is simply the collective power of the people. Any concept of power beyond that is unpleasant to them. To rid the world of power structures is ultimately their aim. My concern there is that you cannot rid the world of power as Krishna is the source of all power. What you can do, however, is demote those people who are usurping positions of power, without Krishna's sanction, using their money as false passports to positions which they have no qualification to occupy. Nothing short of a revolution would be capable of doing this. There are times within the Srimad Bhagavatam in which the overthrow of a ruler have been advocated. The thing I think its important to remeber as well is that all the rulers in today's society are Vaishyas. They have obtained their positions through mercantile expertise. Which of them is qualified and capable of learning? My belief is that all classes of humanity have been relegated to sudra and have no means of escape without revolution as Capitalism can only tolerate two classs of people in truth - Vaishyas and sudras. In order to get the concept of revolution in perspective I think its important to look at how the capitalist class originally gained power. It was by beheading the entire ruling class of the time. This is what happens time and time again in Kali Yuga. I'm not suggesting that we go round beheading people. Rather that the workers collectively have the power to stop the system on which the capitalist class depends. They have the power to demand a different society and if they were aware of that then they could do it straight away through strike action and general collectivised activities that would bring the capitalist system to a standstill. Such action would have to be sustained in order to have an effect but if we had an organisation which would unify all religions, all atheists and all people generally that have a vested interest in bringing about an end to corruption such action would be swift and effective. The Globalised resistance campaign which began in Seattle in 1999 I believe was the beginning of this outpouring of emotion of the beleaguered working class. It was anti capitalist as opposed to socialist but nonetheless it marked for me the beginning of a new era. I hope for Vaishnavas to be a part of this revolution so that it doesn't go astray. It has the power to bring about an opening in which Prabhupada's movement can flourish. Another thing I think it is important to remeber is that we have no precedent for bringing about this new coming age. How infrequently does Lord Chaitanya appear and what effect does He have on the unfolding of the age? I look at the situation with a practical eye and am concerned how to uproot the decadence of the previous age in order to implement the new. I see so many good people who but for the abuse of those in power could lead the world to a brighter dawn. I think karma is a subtle force and we all have to accept our karma and try and become free from it gradually through the practice of Krishna Consciousness. However, it is brute force that is allowing the capitalists to maintain their position not subltle force. They will reap what they sow but only in due course. I am concerned as to how to remove them as soon as possible so that they stop polluting the world's populace with their perverted ideas of greed and selfishness. Muslim fundamentalists are Morons. I do not support them. I am aware of their arguments and I believe that the only way we will overthrow the rising movement of Islamic fundamentalism is to overthrow the power structures that attract them to world domination. They are led by rich and greedy people who want a slice of the imperial pie. Without imperialism such imperialist pseudo religious ventures have no soil in which to sow their wicked schemes. If we offer regular Muslims a poitical alternative to fundamentalist Islam that will protect their rights to practice their faith and protect them from the threat of violence brought about by prejudice they will not be tempted by its offerings. They will recognise that the leaders of such movements are as inimical to their welfare as the western capitalists that bomb their homes. Thanks again. Take care. D

No that's great. I've only ever heard of the good old days being as such by people who used them as a stick to beat me with. At Karuna Bhavan we were held responsible for the deterioration of the movement and it was inconducive to developing the right mentality to see the dhama with. I thank you for getting back to me and appreciate your contribution. Take care.

I was just looking at the entry about devotional life at the beginning of Iskcon and it sounds so nice and I can only imagine that it was. What else would make people want to give up free love and drugs, it had to be something higher. People were thirsty then for a different way of life and Prabhupada quenched that thirst with an artistic flair that has been unparalelled since his departure. I yearned for the association of devotees and joined an Iskcon temple in Scotland - Karuna Bhavan. The devotees there claimed to be the only temple in the world that was actually following Prabhupada. The atmosphere within the temple, however, told a very different story. In order to engage in devotional service 24 hours a day devotee association was sacrificed. The women woke at 2.30 - 3.00 am after 5 hours sleep. We were only allowed to eat twice a day, once before we left for sankirtan once before we went to bed. Devotees were falling asleep in the streets from exhaustion. Painkillers, sanitary towels, various other "luxury" items were only dispensed by the ashram leader when it was deemed necessary and witheld as a form of punishment if it was seen fit. This fundamentalist approach led to an absolute destruction of the spiritual atmosphere that Prabhupada imbibed in his devotees. Now I hear that because Karuna Bhavan is achieving so well in the book sales department other temples are emulating its practices in order to maintain economically Iskcon's shell without nurturing its heart. Devotees need to be able to discuss their previous experiences and associate with each other openly in order to overcome maya. There has to be time for friendship, it is also service, not just illusion. Does anyone know of a temple in the world where the original spirit of Iskcon still flourishes or has the whole institution suffered under the illusion of individualism so rife in the wider world that is eating away at Iskcon's heart?

Thanks for being so supportive. I will definitely follow your leads. Thats what I feel I'm needing, some guidance. I feel the loss of a genuine guru greatly having been duped into accepting a false one previously. Your most kind to take me seriously and it is appreciated.

I am white and live in a largely Muslim community. It is the first community I have ever lived in. The kind of community where people talk to each other and know each others names. I've never had that before. The regular Muslim people are just people as people are people. They are as prone as anybody to being one way or the other on any particular matter. White people over the last few years in my community have developed some very funny ideas about muslims as a response to the 9/11 an London bombings. A Muslim boy was stabbed to death in a neighbouring community to my own only a month ago, just before receiving his GCSE results from school. White people don't get attacked regularly but I know that from time to time people come to our community to cause trouble and try and invoke a negative reaction to the muslim population by constructing their outrage to such events in a political vacuum. This is similar to what happens on a global scale. After the end of the cold war the American state needed an adversary in order to drive through its project for the New American Century. It was like Christmas a million times over for them when Al Quaeda bombed the twin towers. They have done everything they ever wanted to do since then in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon (via Israel), and they will do more unless we stop falling for this rubbish about there being something fundamentally aggressive about Muslim people. Terror is only considered terror when it is defined by the ruling state to be so. I threw up when I saw the twin towers fall and I threw up again when I saw Bagdad being laid to waste with the most powerful weapons known to man. Both activities disgusted me as they targetted innocent civilians as pawns in rich mens games. Saddam Hussein is a rich man (was), Osama Bin Laden is a rich man, George Bush is a rich man. The most striking factor about all these people is that they still are in terms of being alive when so many innocents are not and have spoken in outrage against their actions of all side. Disempowered people often get deluded by the arguments of the rich and powerful, arguments that say we can't live in harmony because of this or that group. Its utter rubbish. Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in Palestine peacefully before 1948. Hindus and Muslims didn't fight for centuries until the British goaded them into doing so. Terrorists should realise that their acts only terrify those people who have no power to change the world in their favour. If it did then the American state and the British state would have revised their foreign and domestic policies regarding the welfare of Muslim people around the world instead of pursuing policies which continue to anger the fundamentalists and thereby put their own citizens in further danger. Civil liberties are being eroded left right and centre in Britain. If you want to get someone killed in Britain all you have to do is tell the anti-terror squad they're making bombs and they'll turn up at their house in the middle of the night and shoot you. There is no longer a concept of innocent until proven guilty. Blair has tampered with the law to the degree that if a facist regime took power tomorrow they would have no problem implementing any or every law they liked without needed to refer to traditional law. These are the real issues, the actual effects of terror on the lives of ordinary people uncover the lie that the leaders of our countries are remotely interested in acting to protect our welfare. They are all fighting for the prize and it is ordinary people be they Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus or atheist that reap the muck.

In truth I didn't actually realise this was an Iskcon site. Sorry. I also missed these postings because I didn't realise we'd gone onto two pages so I'll look at your responses more thoughtfully and get back to you. I think there is a lot of unpacking of ideas going on and it looks like a better discussion than i first anticipated. Ok. I have a problem with Iskcon because I lived in an Iskcon temple for 5 years and it was a deeply unpleasant and thoroughly unspiritual experience. I ended up with an eating disorder and kleptomania for which I was kicked out. I had become so institutionalised that I would never imagine the prospect of leaving of my own accord and it took me a good few months to recover. I went to university because I could no longer claim benefits after 6 months and it seemed like the only way I could get hold of money and spend as minimal amount of time with other people as possible. I didn't understand how to get a job or to live properly in the outside world. At university I studied social policy and all the while I kept thinking of Varnashrama Dharma. I have never stopped believing it was possible and deeply desired to understand how it could be possible. I learnt about the economic organisation of society and the effects that social policies have on people's ability to rationalise the circumstances in which they find themselves. This actively enabled me to understand everything that was wrong about life in an Iskcon temple and how the movement itself had fallen pray to the philosophy of the overarching economic order - Capitalism. I began to understand that Capitalism was the Vaishya tendency driven out of control and thereby began to take socialist ideas of overthrowing capitalism on board having witnessed how a lack of critique of the capitalist order had driven Iskcon into disrepute. I don't believe as theist believes that these people are motivated by anything other than as desire to create a better world. I have spoken with them and worked with them and argued to the death with them and I find them to have many spiritual qualities. It frustrates me that it is often misguided beliefs about religion that prevent them from articulating the faith that is obviously there is their hearts. They sacrifice their time and resources selflessly for the cause and in that I see the spark of devotion. The problem is that whenever they encounter someone of faith they are derided and told that their efforts are worthless. At one time socialists were arrogant I daresay and the stain of that reputation has been hard to shift. Today they are not. They have grown and they listen so long as you can debate with them on their terms. The people I have been discussing with now admit for the large part that their atheism is more of a faith than a politcal necessity and are more open to the notion of agnosticism. I went to a meeting last night on Marxism and Religion and found out that a 30% of the people in the room had a faith of one description or another and this is the case today. More and more religious people are getting involved in socialism because they are appalled by the horrors that the IMF, WTO and World Bank are enforcing upon the majority of the world's population. Yes you and I have enough material comfort to contemplate metaphysical issues but that is not the concern of a vaishnava. OUr concern is that all human beings be liberated. Having studied global politics it is quite clear to me that it is capitalism which is holding Africa to ransom and preventing the growth of its infrastructures, it is capitalism which is displacing the world's population and creating rightless persons around the world who are ripe for exploitation in the capitalist nerve centres of the world. Capitalism polarises, it chops and changes and creates instability. My position is simply this, if you don't see that the world is already in turmoil and at constant war it is because you live in the belly of the beast at not at the ruthless end of its nashing jaws. The world is already in complete flux and will die not live to see another 100 let alone 1000 years unless people of conscience make the decision to act now. This is faith, faith that something can be done. Faith in Prabhupada that his mission will succeed. Muslims who believe in separatist measures will fail to bring about the peace required to practice their religion. Islam alone is not capable of overthrowing capitalism, only the workers are. The workers are actually in control of production the world over. Capitalists must use force, the threat of expulsion or denial of the right to labour in order to exact all the excess profits. It is this force I challenge but we are so many and they are so few such resistance would bring an end to war rather than perpetuate it as the capitalist system does of necessity. Muslims are not to blame. They feel threatened because their homelands have been under attack and threat of attack since the ruling class realised it needed control over the region to secure a constant oil supply until that resource runs out and capitalism can function no longer in its present form. I'm sorry that you don't feel I quote Prabhupada enough. I don't know his or Marx's quotes by heart. I know that Prabhupada was skeptical of the motives of socialists but socialism has grown and it is ready, I believe to address issues of God Consciousness. So long as we take the need to change the world and make it a peaceful place seriously they will and do take us seriously. For as long as we say that the world is in no need of change and those that suffer do so at their own hands, they will not. Hope thats not too self orientated but I felt my opinions required a little context. I have nothing but respect for Prabhupada and sincerely fear challenging his position on socialism. This is why I must get to the bottom of this by consulting Vaishnavas.

I appreciate that casual racists begin their sentences with the statement "I am not a racist but . . ." and proceed to confim they are a racist because they have not thoroughly assessed the situation reflexively. I am not such a person. I believe that before the second world war there was a massive socialist party in Germany that had great sway over Jewish people who saw it as the only means via which they would be able to overcome anti semitism. The ruling class responded by giving resources and media support to the Nazi party who subverted the principles of socialism into a doctrine that oppressed Jewish people. The Nazi's systematically wiped out all the socialists at Dachau. They were one of their first targets. After the war Zionists chose a path of separatism believing that no other possibility lay for them to be accepted as part of European society. The same European society that had failed to come to their aid during the holocaust condoned practically exiling the Jewish population to a middle eastern outpost that was fully inhabited by Palestinian people. Those Palestinian people were Jewish, Christian, and Muslim. There was no problem with them living together. But like some hideous gladiatorial imperialist spectator sport Britain and France challenged the Jews to wipe out the Palestinian population and claim their place on the political map. There is nothing worse for the Jewish people than the Zionist state of Israel. It actively increases anti-semitism because it commits acts of violence in the middle east on behalf of the Western powers. They are like an outsourced army that do George Bush's dirty work for him. Zionists are more akin to to Nazis in their use of terror to achieve their objectives. Most Jewish people are oblivious to all this and with simple faith believe that they have been delivered unto the promised land. I don't hate these people but I despise the ruling class that has manipulated the simplicity of their faith to cover the gruesome facts that surround the creation of Israel. Marek Edelman was a Jewish socialist who spearheaded the resistance against the Warsaw Ghetto while he was imprisoned there. It is a brilliant text that sheds much illumination on this issues. It is called the Ghetto Fights. Read it if you get the chance. I'm sorry for getting frustrated with you but its just that I've studied the creation of states and global power and am engaged in debate on a daily basis on these issues and I hoped that this discussion would start beyond the need for all these issues to be addressed. I do appreciate that it must have appeared awfully ignorant of me not to read all that stuff you posted but I sincerely don't have the time and also am aware of the arguments which justify that position. I hope I've not caused any offence and that I can in some way inspire you to reconsider your negative opinions of socialism. The ruling class has a vested interested in lying about socialism. The facts lie beneath the surface.